Funny, I had almost the same image in my head as I was walking to the kitchen to get a cup of coffee. Mine's a little different but pretty much the same theme:
Fifty hipster clones in a Starbucks: We're Macs.
Fifty PHBs in an depressing office lobby: We're PCs.
Alpha geek in a server room wearing a penguin pocket protector: I'm Linux.
College aged alterna-girl on a park bench with her laptop: I'm Linux.
Mother and two children in the living room: We're Linux.
(Montage speeds up, you get the idea, super-fast clips in the same vein speeding up and speeding up and speeding up, later in the scene people start reaching out and pulling in the Mac/PC clone-guys, they get in on the act, fast and faster until...)
Enormous mob of people (in Times Square or something): I AM LINUX.
Young hip kid (not the Mac) walks out of the crowd to the camera: You can be too.
As a child, I had chronic migraines. Twice a week, all the time. "Put me in a dark room and let me cry" kind of migraines. My best friend's mom had to keep a bottle of my migraine pills at their house just in case.
She (my friend's mom) was actually the one who brought me in for acupuncture (I was 10 or 11; young). She brought it up to my mom, who thought it was quackery. So she just brought me in on her own dime and didn't tell my mother about it.
I may have had four or five sessions all told. I have never had a migraine since. I am 27 years old.
That's modern technology for you, dude. Let's compare to the "Windows Way." The following gross-oversimplification is presented from the point of view of Joe Average User.
Linux: Plug it in. It'll probably work. If it doesn't, you might be in for config file hackery or other un-fun shit.
Windows: Plug it in. It might work. If it doesn't work, put in the driver CD. Then it'll probably work. If it doesn't work then, you are most likely fucked.
Of those two, I know which one I like. Also, I did read your other post about the joystick/tablet mess, and you're right, that sounds like it sucks.
Good service. Things will go wrong with any Operating System, who is there to assist our clients? Do we have a "0860 CA LL MS" number that the user of his chosen environment can contact in time of need?
Sure, at least Canonical does. Joe Desktop's never gonna use it, but he never called Microsoft either.
You are ridiculous. I can count on one hand the number of times I've "installed hardware drivers" on Linux (every goddamn one was an Atheros wireless chipset too, fuck you very much). 99% of the time, installing hardware on Linux is a two-step process:
1. Plug it in. 2. There is no 2 (unless it's an Nvidia graphics card in which case step 2 is sudo apt-get install nvidia-glx)
No CDs, no useless bundle-ware in your system tray, none of that horseshit. Plug it in. Go about your business. And what's this crap about not being able to hotplug a mouse? WTF kind of mouse do you have?
This is the most tired, bullshit argument. You get the one that comes with the distro your geek friend told you to use (probably Ubuntu, probably Gnome). The end. If you're running around telling people "You should use Linux and choose between (Ubuntu/Fedora/Slack/DSL) and (Gnome/KDE/XFCE/Flux)!" then you are doing it wrong.
Oh my god, get over it already. If someone installs Ubuntu on your computer, well, you've got Gnome. Unified. If someone installs a KDE-centric distro, well, you've got KDE. Unified. It's not like Joe Noob is gonna run out and say "gee, I should install and configure a new desktop environment!" All the major desktops are totally consistent within themselves. Hell, KDE4 will even run non-Qt programs in some sort of compatibility layer so they all look the same.
I think that most non-geeks buy their software boxed in the shops, not online.
Yeah, and when you show them Add/Remove Programs in Ubuntu, it blows their minds.
Better than what? People keep comparing Amarok with WMP, with obvious results.
Yes, because that's the fair comparison. The media player that comes with KDE and the media player that comes with Windows. Shit, even Rhythmbox beats WMP.
Best videogame console emulators.
Uh... "non-geek"??
Yeah, non-geek. I showed my kid brother (non-geek) DOSBox, said "remember all those badass games we used to play on mom's old computer when we were little?" and pointed him to some abandonware sites. Made a believer out of him.
Gnome - which seems to be the most popular in the "beginner" distros recently - is not more customizable than the Windows desktop. Number of Windows XP/Vista themes positively dwarves the number of both Gtk and KDE themes combines (though in all three cases, the vast majority of themes are crap anyway).
Okay, I'm as much a Gnome-hater as the next geek, but to say it's "not much more customizable than the Windows desktop" is pushing it even for me. And the difference here is native theming, as opposed to running some third-party hack on Windows. I've never once seen a non-geek running a themed Windows box. But it's trivial to show them Appearance in the Gnome Preferences menu and let them have at it. It's even more trivial to show them Appearance in the KDE System Settings and let them download and install themes from a dialog box right there. There is simply no comparison.
Ah, so it's "I don't like these features, therefore they are not innovative or valuable?" Sorry, not buying it.
Instead of going through point-by-point again, let me try to group some of these together:
Window tabbing/Window tagging/Multiple workspaces: Okay, to be honest I'm not hardcore enough for Awesome, so I don't have firsthand experience with window tagging either. But in all three of these examples, what we're really talking about is completely re-imagining the way you organize your computing tasks. It's a totally different way of handling a desktop computer's workflow. I'll admit that the tabbed window concept of Fluxbox is something that takes a lot of getting used to to be efficient and effective with it (and some editing of the ~/.fluxbox/keys file). But multiple workspaces is something everyone can grab onto and start using immediately. Hell, I'd call it revolutionary if it wasn't like 15 years old.
D-bus: It's a wheel that badly needed reinventing. Real cross-application, cross-DE, cross-platform, cross-everything communication between programs. Yes, it's complex. Complex things are complex. But to my knowledge, no one's doing a better implementation of the idea.
Theming: You obviously have no accessibility issues. Good for you. Some people do, and to dismiss the power of real native theming is to dismiss that whole group of people. I also don't have any accessibility issues, but I do most of my work in a low-light area and usually at night. The ability to switch to a dark theme so my clunky ass CRT monitor doesn't sear my eyeballs out is a pretty big deal to me.
User actions: No one wants to right-click on an iso file and burn it from the file manager? No one wants to right-click on a wma file and convert it to something their mp3 player can read from the file manager? You really can't see any use cases that this could potentially be valuable in?
What the average user cares about is that they can make the system reliably do what they need it to do. If it does that, they won't complain about it. If it doesn't do that, they'll reinstall the OEM copy of Windows over it in a heartbeat.
Don't move the goalposts. You asked for innovation and added value, I gave you a thorough list. If you rebut with "It's not added value because people aren't used to it," that's a double-bind.
Ok slashdot...I just made a comment that suggested that Linux was not perfect and not for everyone. Let the insults begin. I'm a microsoft shill. I'm stupid and bad a computers. My mother was a hamster and my father smelled of elderberries. Continue as you see fit.
Oh, get over yourself.
And then I shall have to utter the words that will send my poor mom fleeing from linux forevermore - "Open a term, we need to edit a conf file". Or worse - "Open a term, we need to set some boot parameters".
Again, get over yourself. You think you have some magic ability that enables you to type, and no one else in the world can? If you've got someone on the phone or standing over your shoulder telling you what to type, as a rookie that's just a "generic unfamiliar task." Yes, for a beginner going in cold with no help but a wiki page or something... well, that can be pretty daunting stuff. That's not what we're talking about here at all.
People like your mom (no, I'm not making a your mom joke, seriously) are so used to not knowing what the hell's going on with their machine that if you tell them to open up a config file and put a line in at the bottom, they're pretty much just like "Oh, okay." It's not like it requires comprehension. It requires the ability to read and type. Which believe it or not, many people can do.
To summarize, I think you're just psyching yourself out about it and giving yourself an excuse not to do it.
I am not the GP, but I did switch to KDE and GP covered a lot of the reasons why. I don't think it's a troll. Probably useless to complain about it (if the Gnome developers gave a shit about people like us they wouldn't be Gnome developers), but not a troll.
I don't have any firsthand knowledge of the way Mac program installation works (seriously, I've got maybe twenty minutes total experience with a Mac, so I freely admit my ignorance on the subject), but just from the way people here on/. describe it, that sounds like way more of a pain in the ass than "apt-get it and forget it" Debian package management. How is this superior to apt?
The GUIs work, mostly, but they aren't nearly as stable as Windows Vista, and they don't add any real value that Vista doesn't have.
I completely disagree. A few examples from the top of my head:
Tabbing of windows (Fluxbox) Tagging of windows (Awesome) Desktop activities (KDE) D-bus (open standard) Theming (everybody) Multiple workspaces (everybody, for at least ten years) User actions/Nautilus scripts/etc. (several implementations)
To my knowledge neither the Windows nor the OSX desktop can do any of these things (third-party hacks don't count).
I don't think that logic applies here. You just can't buy the systems anymore (except maybe if you luck out at a garage sale), let alone the games. It's well and good to say "you should have to pay the price asked" but what if there isn't a price asked?
30% reported by my roommate's System Status (or whatever the hell they call it in Windows), upon login of an OEM Dell laptop with 3Gb RAM. Your belief is not required.
Same guy, Ken Starks. Also the same guy who tried to raise about a zillion bucks to put Tux on an Indy 500 car. I'm still torn as to whether the guy's a con artist or just fucking stupid.
Others have already replied to this, but I will add...
So until Windows is not the global standard OS that children will encounter later in life, they should continue to learn to be fluent with it.
That's a very interesting double-bind you've just created there. When exactly would you expect Windows to not be the "global standard" if we continue to allow our schools to teach nothing but?
Also, that's an interesting definition of "global" you're using there.
I actually welcome this news, I think when these things happen it sends a strong signal that free software means business, and we're here to stick around. It might be "free speech," it might even be "free beer," but it ain't "freeloader."
Slashdot Mirror
Funny, I had almost the same image in my head as I was walking to the kitchen to get a cup of coffee. Mine's a little different but pretty much the same theme:
Fifty hipster clones in a Starbucks: We're Macs.
Fifty PHBs in an depressing office lobby: We're PCs.
Alpha geek in a server room wearing a penguin pocket protector: I'm Linux.
College aged alterna-girl on a park bench with her laptop: I'm Linux.
Mother and two children in the living room: We're Linux.
(Montage speeds up, you get the idea, super-fast clips in the same vein speeding up and speeding up and speeding up, later in the scene people start reaching out and pulling in the Mac/PC clone-guys, they get in on the act, fast and faster until...)
Enormous mob of people (in Times Square or something): I AM LINUX.
Young hip kid (not the Mac) walks out of the crowd to the camera: You can be too.
As a child, I had chronic migraines. Twice a week, all the time. "Put me in a dark room and let me cry" kind of migraines. My best friend's mom had to keep a bottle of my migraine pills at their house just in case.
She (my friend's mom) was actually the one who brought me in for acupuncture (I was 10 or 11; young). She brought it up to my mom, who thought it was quackery. So she just brought me in on her own dime and didn't tell my mother about it.
I may have had four or five sessions all told. I have never had a migraine since. I am 27 years old.
That's modern technology for you, dude. Let's compare to the "Windows Way." The following gross-oversimplification is presented from the point of view of Joe Average User.
Linux: Plug it in. It'll probably work. If it doesn't, you might be in for config file hackery or other un-fun shit.
Windows: Plug it in. It might work. If it doesn't work, put in the driver CD. Then it'll probably work. If it doesn't work then, you are most likely fucked.
Of those two, I know which one I like. Also, I did read your other post about the joystick/tablet mess, and you're right, that sounds like it sucks.
Well, there's Quicktime, but I sure as hell don't miss it.
Good service. Things will go wrong with any Operating System, who is there to assist our clients? Do we have a "0860 CA LL MS" number that the user of his chosen environment can contact in time of need?
Sure, at least Canonical does. Joe Desktop's never gonna use it, but he never called Microsoft either.
You are ridiculous. I can count on one hand the number of times I've "installed hardware drivers" on Linux (every goddamn one was an Atheros wireless chipset too, fuck you very much). 99% of the time, installing hardware on Linux is a two-step process:
1. Plug it in.
2. There is no 2 (unless it's an Nvidia graphics card in which case step 2 is sudo apt-get install nvidia-glx)
No CDs, no useless bundle-ware in your system tray, none of that horseshit. Plug it in. Go about your business. And what's this crap about not being able to hotplug a mouse? WTF kind of mouse do you have?
This is the most tired, bullshit argument. You get the one that comes with the distro your geek friend told you to use (probably Ubuntu, probably Gnome). The end. If you're running around telling people "You should use Linux and choose between (Ubuntu/Fedora/Slack/DSL) and (Gnome/KDE/XFCE/Flux)!" then you are doing it wrong.
Oh my god, get over it already. If someone installs Ubuntu on your computer, well, you've got Gnome. Unified. If someone installs a KDE-centric distro, well, you've got KDE. Unified. It's not like Joe Noob is gonna run out and say "gee, I should install and configure a new desktop environment!" All the major desktops are totally consistent within themselves. Hell, KDE4 will even run non-Qt programs in some sort of compatibility layer so they all look the same.
I think that most non-geeks buy their software boxed in the shops, not online.
Yeah, and when you show them Add/Remove Programs in Ubuntu, it blows their minds.
Better than what? People keep comparing Amarok with WMP, with obvious results.
Yes, because that's the fair comparison. The media player that comes with KDE and the media player that comes with Windows. Shit, even Rhythmbox beats WMP.
Best videogame console emulators.
Uh... "non-geek"??
Yeah, non-geek. I showed my kid brother (non-geek) DOSBox, said "remember all those badass games we used to play on mom's old computer when we were little?" and pointed him to some abandonware sites. Made a believer out of him.
Gnome - which seems to be the most popular in the "beginner" distros recently - is not more customizable than the Windows desktop. Number of Windows XP/Vista themes positively dwarves the number of both Gtk and KDE themes combines (though in all three cases, the vast majority of themes are crap anyway).
Okay, I'm as much a Gnome-hater as the next geek, but to say it's "not much more customizable than the Windows desktop" is pushing it even for me. And the difference here is native theming, as opposed to running some third-party hack on Windows. I've never once seen a non-geek running a themed Windows box. But it's trivial to show them Appearance in the Gnome Preferences menu and let them have at it. It's even more trivial to show them Appearance in the KDE System Settings and let them download and install themes from a dialog box right there. There is simply no comparison.
Ah, so it's "I don't like these features, therefore they are not innovative or valuable?" Sorry, not buying it.
Instead of going through point-by-point again, let me try to group some of these together:
Window tabbing/Window tagging/Multiple workspaces: Okay, to be honest I'm not hardcore enough for Awesome, so I don't have firsthand experience with window tagging either. But in all three of these examples, what we're really talking about is completely re-imagining the way you organize your computing tasks. It's a totally different way of handling a desktop computer's workflow. I'll admit that the tabbed window concept of Fluxbox is something that takes a lot of getting used to to be efficient and effective with it (and some editing of the ~/.fluxbox/keys file). But multiple workspaces is something everyone can grab onto and start using immediately. Hell, I'd call it revolutionary if it wasn't like 15 years old.
D-bus: It's a wheel that badly needed reinventing. Real cross-application, cross-DE, cross-platform, cross-everything communication between programs. Yes, it's complex. Complex things are complex. But to my knowledge, no one's doing a better implementation of the idea.
Theming: You obviously have no accessibility issues. Good for you. Some people do, and to dismiss the power of real native theming is to dismiss that whole group of people. I also don't have any accessibility issues, but I do most of my work in a low-light area and usually at night. The ability to switch to a dark theme so my clunky ass CRT monitor doesn't sear my eyeballs out is a pretty big deal to me.
User actions: No one wants to right-click on an iso file and burn it from the file manager? No one wants to right-click on a wma file and convert it to something their mp3 player can read from the file manager? You really can't see any use cases that this could potentially be valuable in?
What the average user cares about is that they can make the system reliably do what they need it to do. If it does that, they won't complain about it. If it doesn't do that, they'll reinstall the OEM copy of Windows over it in a heartbeat.
Don't move the goalposts. You asked for innovation and added value, I gave you a thorough list. If you rebut with "It's not added value because people aren't used to it," that's a double-bind.
Ok slashdot...I just made a comment that suggested that Linux was not perfect and not for everyone. Let the insults begin. I'm a microsoft shill. I'm stupid and bad a computers. My mother was a hamster and my father smelled of elderberries. Continue as you see fit.
Oh, get over yourself.
And then I shall have to utter the words that will send my poor mom fleeing from linux forevermore - "Open a term, we need to edit a conf file". Or worse - "Open a term, we need to set some boot parameters".
Again, get over yourself. You think you have some magic ability that enables you to type, and no one else in the world can? If you've got someone on the phone or standing over your shoulder telling you what to type, as a rookie that's just a "generic unfamiliar task." Yes, for a beginner going in cold with no help but a wiki page or something... well, that can be pretty daunting stuff. That's not what we're talking about here at all.
People like your mom (no, I'm not making a your mom joke, seriously) are so used to not knowing what the hell's going on with their machine that if you tell them to open up a config file and put a line in at the bottom, they're pretty much just like "Oh, okay." It's not like it requires comprehension. It requires the ability to read and type. Which believe it or not, many people can do.
To summarize, I think you're just psyching yourself out about it and giving yourself an excuse not to do it.
I am not the GP, but I did switch to KDE and GP covered a lot of the reasons why. I don't think it's a troll. Probably useless to complain about it (if the Gnome developers gave a shit about people like us they wouldn't be Gnome developers), but not a troll.
I don't have any firsthand knowledge of the way Mac program installation works (seriously, I've got maybe twenty minutes total experience with a Mac, so I freely admit my ignorance on the subject), but just from the way people here on /. describe it, that sounds like way more of a pain in the ass than "apt-get it and forget it" Debian package management. How is this superior to apt?
Bless your heart. This is going in my quotefile.
The GUIs work, mostly, but they aren't nearly as stable as Windows Vista, and they don't add any real value that Vista doesn't have.
I completely disagree. A few examples from the top of my head:
Tabbing of windows (Fluxbox)
Tagging of windows (Awesome)
Desktop activities (KDE)
D-bus (open standard)
Theming (everybody)
Multiple workspaces (everybody, for at least ten years)
User actions/Nautilus scripts/etc. (several implementations)
To my knowledge neither the Windows nor the OSX desktop can do any of these things (third-party hacks don't count).
I don't think that logic applies here. You just can't buy the systems anymore (except maybe if you luck out at a garage sale), let alone the games. It's well and good to say "you should have to pay the price asked" but what if there isn't a price asked?
Fuck you, bigot.
30% reported by my roommate's System Status (or whatever the hell they call it in Windows), upon login of an OEM Dell laptop with 3Gb RAM. Your belief is not required.
Well, that's fantastic. The rest of the world has had something like that for years.
Gparted? Qparted? There's no shortage of graphical partition managers in Linux.
Har. Best troll of the thread.
What, yours? Nah, pretty weak actually. Who the hell hates *nix? WTF are you on about?
BTW, your grammar sucks.
Same guy, Ken Starks. Also the same guy who tried to raise about a zillion bucks to put Tux on an Indy 500 car. I'm still torn as to whether the guy's a con artist or just fucking stupid.
Others have already replied to this, but I will add...
So until Windows is not the global standard OS that children will encounter later in life, they should continue to learn to be fluent with it.
That's a very interesting double-bind you've just created there. When exactly would you expect Windows to not be the "global standard" if we continue to allow our schools to teach nothing but?
Also, that's an interesting definition of "global" you're using there.
Wow. That "$" instead of an "S?" That's so classy and original. I am in awe of your wit, sir.
I actually welcome this news, I think when these things happen it sends a strong signal that free software means business, and we're here to stick around. It might be "free speech," it might even be "free beer," but it ain't "freeloader."