Well I just played with it a little myself too and it is GREAT for frontend development. You could use it for ALL development if you want but it gives you ('the developer') the option of mixing 'pure java' on the backend with Groovy if you wish (since Groovy compiles to Java anyway from what I remember).
Very flexible, and very powerful. None of that worry of not scaling that there is with Ruby.
Well JRuby is an implementation of Ruby in Java which explains the speed but it is still quite slow as it has to 'interpret' everything into java. If you are a fan of Java and like Ruby, I'd suggest Groovy. It's blazingly fast and even puts these to shame. Plus works well Rails, Struts and most MVC frameworks.
Yeah! I mean, it's only used in the most widely HACKED, VIRUS PRONE, UNSTABLE DESKTOP environment BUT STILL NOT ADOPTED BY SERVERS OR ANYONE OUTSIDE OF THAT COMMUNITY. And it's only leaps and bounds better AT CREATING DEVELOPERS WHO CANNOT THINK FOR THEMSELVES AND CREATE PROGRAMS THAT ARE EQUALLY UNSTABLE AND HACKABLE than the usual drek.
Yeah I hear it being pushed by Miguel De Icaza but I don't see it being accepted as an alternative by Microsoft nor being accepted by developers outside of Novell. So again... how is this an ideal language for development on Linux? At least Gnustep works and is proven to be cross platform,
Most industry leaders say the more dynamic a language, the more resources it must use and the less flexible it becomes. Few would argue with this hypothesis. I leave it up to you to continue to argue with industry leaders.
Go ahead and write a program in SQL or in XML, there NUBY. Feel free to show me how those are programming languages. I love to see Nuby's show their ignorance.
Again, not my stack. PHPulse was written by Owen Ruble. I just happen to have implemented it at the telecom I work for for a 10 terabyte database connecting a couple million users a day over. Ruby chokes and dies. Other PHP frameworks choke and die even. PHPulse was the only one I could find that would scale and it does that REALLY well!
As for not doing eveything well... major duh there Nuby. You don't use a web framework for application development and vice versa. But a web framework SHOULD scale with your website and you should merely need to add hardware or tools and not REPLACE the language or framework which is the case that many CEO's has found out with Ruby.
You are merely another Ruby Nuby in denial as every Ruby Nuby is. This is why the Ruby Nuby buzz has died and people have started turning away from it... because the hype doesn't match the languages capabilities. It is still a Nuby language. Deal.
Yeah and most people consider that a language like XML is a language. Get serious. You really are a Nuby aren't you? You aren't even worth my time. Go troll elsewhere Nuby.
Face facts Ruby-nooby... without PHP, Perl or Pyhton to back up Ruby, it can't do squat. Every reference you are going to throw at me uses PHP, Perl, C, Python or some other language on the backend to handle the grunt work. Ruby is just a toy language for handling HTML. It's great for non-programmers and non-developers or small shops. But for businesses that need to grow, code that needs to scale, applications that need high availability, it has at least 5 more years. This is why most developers with any amount of experience say this and why developers with little or no experience like yourself keep denying it.
Now here is where you quote some questionable credentials saying just how experienced you are to have made you move to Nuby...
Heh That's not what I heard about Twitter. I keep seeing them go down CONSTANTLY! And people constantly have problems connecting. And they aren't even doing that much.
As for Yellowpages, you mean WHITEPAGES and they haven't started implementing Ruby yet so your point is pointless. They are still a Perl shop. They just used it for a small project and it still didn't work that well and uses massive Perl on the backend... as does Twitter.
So again... I fail to see your point. If Ruby needs all this Perl to back it up, how does it scale so well again?
You have a very good point. It is dogmatic. However in a shop of 5 developers, your code should be easily interchangeable and one developer should not have to guess where the other puts his functions. If they are always put in the controller, then this is a very easy place to find them.
What you are talking about when you mix AJAX is two separate frameworks however; the client side framework and the server side framework. I would argue that for ease of maintainable code, AJAX functions need to be separate from the view but used by the view. Having all your functions in your views makes them hard to reuse. This allows for the symbiotic relationship between the two frameworks to be maintained through the view and still allow for the reusability and maintainability of the code. AJAX needs to be treated as a separate by symbiotic framework for the client side.
And yet somehow, CTO's and larger companies dump RUBY and Rails for that simple fact and stick PHP, Perl or Python on the backend to act as a crutch when TRYING to make it scale.
As for writing back code that doesn't scale, that's a developer issue and not the framework issue as you know. PHPulse is used in the enterprise by investments firms and by telecoms for day to day business. Rails is used for small mom and pops. So I reiterate... call me in 5 years when you can get the language to scale.
Yeah but PHPulse scales. Seriously though, if you want to go down that road, you would see that PHPulse has the highest benchmarks for speed and scalability in a PHP framework. So while RAILS may have had that for years, PHPulse has scaled for years. Come talk to me in 5 years when Rails can do that and work in the enterprise.
Again to classicly show my point, PHPulse has AJAX built in so that ALL AJAX calls get routed back through the MVC framework to use the same classes and methods that were used to build the page. That way the AJAX method cannot access any classes or methods that the user does not have access to. You can integrate it in and have the container/controller and model handle everything with AJAX being it's own separate (but integrated) layer.
More frameworks need to follow the lead of PHPulse by doing it this way. I've only seen a couple start to do this but they are doing it rather clunky due to not universally managing privileges through the framework.
Depends on what kind of 'drawing' you are talking about. Drawing a picture via a backend class? Yes abso;utely via the controller and perhaps even th model should you need it. Interactive drawing? Well if done vie flash or java, again, you would separate the components again. Done via AJAX, you would separate this out again.
AJAX needs to be treated as it's own MVC layer; as being separate but symbiotic with the server side. This is why jQuery is referred to as a framework... because it essentially is. But people need to build MVC for it. So don't think that just because you have an interactive component in your website, that it isn't MVC. It should be MVC in it's own way for ease of development and ease of use.
Oh I see what you are saying. Since Ajax has processing, data handling, and view, where does it fit in? Well some say it is it's own separate MVC for presentation specific to the client and separate from the server (yet maintaining a symbiotic relationship with it). Hard to say. The web is a unique model that MVC was never prepared for. I think the browser itself will eventually have its own xcode gui builder tool that we will just send simple xml to and interact with. AJAX is merely step one to that process.
View caching is done a variety of ways. You need to use the way that is best for your language and web server. As for AJAX breaking MVC, there is a solution. In PHPulse, the AJAX call is redirected back to the same page allowing the MVC framework to handle the AJAX call. This also allows all methods specific to the page to just be called thus not allowing the AJAX method to gain access to methods outside the range of the pages access (or outside the range of the users privilege access).
Thus AJAX calls still use the MVC framework in PHPulse.
The view should do ZERO processing. That should settle it. Some templates allow for a minimal amount of if/else statements and some developers are just sloppy and stick in processing anyway when it should be moved to the controller.
The model should handle all data, the controller should handle processing and the container should handle higher level functioning for gathering the model, the view and the container.
This gets updated every five years (about as often as a new Microsoft OS gets rolled out). How does this apply to what I said? While fairly stable, not very good about rolling out regular patches and updates.
*sigh* I just spent a week having to do this and I sure as hell don't have the time to lay them all out on Slashdot for one troll. I looked and looked and I currently use Trac but they wanted something more along the lines of Microsoft Project and layed out alot of features that Trac just doesn't have like integration with other applications. Do the research rather than asking someone to do it for you. All decent open source project management tools are all based on Trac (agile 42, a scrum pm tool is also Trac based). So again, Trac is about it and as I said, is pretty damn good but isn't what alot of management wants; they want full integration and other have that.
Slashdot Mirror
Well I just played with it a little myself too and it is GREAT for frontend development. You could use it for ALL development if you want but it gives you ('the developer') the option of mixing 'pure java' on the backend with Groovy if you wish (since Groovy compiles to Java anyway from what I remember).
Very flexible, and very powerful. None of that worry of not scaling that there is with Ruby.
Um... I suffer from a rare disease known as sig blindness. :)
Well JRuby is an implementation of Ruby in Java which explains the speed but it is still quite slow as it has to 'interpret' everything into java. If you are a fan of Java and like Ruby, I'd suggest Groovy. It's blazingly fast and even puts these to shame. Plus works well Rails, Struts and most MVC frameworks.
Couldn't agree with you more.
Yeah I hear it being pushed by Miguel De Icaza but I don't see it being accepted as an alternative by Microsoft nor being accepted by developers outside of Novell. So again... how is this an ideal language for development on Linux? At least Gnustep works and is proven to be cross platform,
C#??? You list that as important to Linux development??? Are you serious, Mr Ballmer?
Most industry leaders say the more dynamic a language, the more resources it must use and the less flexible it becomes. Few would argue with this hypothesis. I leave it up to you to continue to argue with industry leaders.
Go ahead and write a program in SQL or in XML, there NUBY. Feel free to show me how those are programming languages. I love to see Nuby's show their ignorance.
Excellent... program me something in it then. Next you will be telling me because the framework uses Apache, it relies upon C. Get serious Nuby.
Again, not my stack. PHPulse was written by Owen Ruble. I just happen to have implemented it at the telecom I work for for a 10 terabyte database connecting a couple million users a day over. Ruby chokes and dies. Other PHP frameworks choke and die even. PHPulse was the only one I could find that would scale and it does that REALLY well!
As for not doing eveything well... major duh there Nuby. You don't use a web framework for application development and vice versa. But a web framework SHOULD scale with your website and you should merely need to add hardware or tools and not REPLACE the language or framework which is the case that many CEO's has found out with Ruby.
You are merely another Ruby Nuby in denial as every Ruby Nuby is. This is why the Ruby Nuby buzz has died and people have started turning away from it... because the hype doesn't match the languages capabilities. It is still a Nuby language. Deal.
Yeah and most people consider that a language like XML is a language. Get serious. You really are a Nuby aren't you? You aren't even worth my time. Go troll elsewhere Nuby.
And what other languages would that be hmmm? Javascript? LOL. Let's see you do AJAX without it, Ruby Nuby.
As for it being my framework, I never said it was. I just happen to use it.
Face facts Ruby-nooby... without PHP, Perl or Pyhton to back up Ruby, it can't do squat. Every reference you are going to throw at me uses PHP, Perl, C, Python or some other language on the backend to handle the grunt work. Ruby is just a toy language for handling HTML. It's great for non-programmers and non-developers or small shops. But for businesses that need to grow, code that needs to scale, applications that need high availability, it has at least 5 more years. This is why most developers with any amount of experience say this and why developers with little or no experience like yourself keep denying it.
Now here is where you quote some questionable credentials saying just how experienced you are to have made you move to Nuby...
Heh That's not what I heard about Twitter. I keep seeing them go down CONSTANTLY! And people constantly have problems connecting. And they aren't even doing that much.
As for Yellowpages, you mean WHITEPAGES and they haven't started implementing Ruby yet so your point is pointless. They are still a Perl shop. They just used it for a small project and it still didn't work that well and uses massive Perl on the backend... as does Twitter.
So again... I fail to see your point. If Ruby needs all this Perl to back it up, how does it scale so well again?
You have a very good point. It is dogmatic. However in a shop of 5 developers, your code should be easily interchangeable and one developer should not have to guess where the other puts his functions. If they are always put in the controller, then this is a very easy place to find them.
What you are talking about when you mix AJAX is two separate frameworks however; the client side framework and the server side framework. I would argue that for ease of maintainable code, AJAX functions need to be separate from the view but used by the view. Having all your functions in your views makes them hard to reuse. This allows for the symbiotic relationship between the two frameworks to be maintained through the view and still allow for the reusability and maintainability of the code. AJAX needs to be treated as a separate by symbiotic framework for the client side.
And yet somehow, CTO's and larger companies dump RUBY and Rails for that simple fact and stick PHP, Perl or Python on the backend to act as a crutch when TRYING to make it scale.
As for writing back code that doesn't scale, that's a developer issue and not the framework issue as you know. PHPulse is used in the enterprise by investments firms and by telecoms for day to day business. Rails is used for small mom and pops. So I reiterate... call me in 5 years when you can get the language to scale.
Yeah but PHPulse scales. Seriously though, if you want to go down that road, you would see that PHPulse has the highest benchmarks for speed and scalability in a PHP framework. So while RAILS may have had that for years, PHPulse has scaled for years. Come talk to me in 5 years when Rails can do that and work in the enterprise.
In fact, most Ruby sites use PHP still in order to scale. And yet, somehow, Ruby fanatics still deny this to this day... sad really.
Again to classicly show my point, PHPulse has AJAX built in so that ALL AJAX calls get routed back through the MVC framework to use the same classes and methods that were used to build the page. That way the AJAX method cannot access any classes or methods that the user does not have access to. You can integrate it in and have the container/controller and model handle everything with AJAX being it's own separate (but integrated) layer.
More frameworks need to follow the lead of PHPulse by doing it this way. I've only seen a couple start to do this but they are doing it rather clunky due to not universally managing privileges through the framework.
Depends on what kind of 'drawing' you are talking about. Drawing a picture via a backend class? Yes abso;utely via the controller and perhaps even th model should you need it. Interactive drawing? Well if done vie flash or java, again, you would separate the components again. Done via AJAX, you would separate this out again.
AJAX needs to be treated as it's own MVC layer; as being separate but symbiotic with the server side. This is why jQuery is referred to as a framework... because it essentially is. But people need to build MVC for it. So don't think that just because you have an interactive component in your website, that it isn't MVC. It should be MVC in it's own way for ease of development and ease of use.
Oh I see what you are saying. Since Ajax has processing, data handling, and view, where does it fit in? Well some say it is it's own separate MVC for presentation specific to the client and separate from the server (yet maintaining a symbiotic relationship with it). Hard to say. The web is a unique model that MVC was never prepared for. I think the browser itself will eventually have its own xcode gui builder tool that we will just send simple xml to and interact with. AJAX is merely step one to that process.
View caching is done a variety of ways. You need to use the way that is best for your language and web server. As for AJAX breaking MVC, there is a solution. In PHPulse, the AJAX call is redirected back to the same page allowing the MVC framework to handle the AJAX call. This also allows all methods specific to the page to just be called thus not allowing the AJAX method to gain access to methods outside the range of the pages access (or outside the range of the users privilege access).
Thus AJAX calls still use the MVC framework in PHPulse.
The view should do ZERO processing. That should settle it. Some templates allow for a minimal amount of if/else statements and some developers are just sloppy and stick in processing anyway when it should be moved to the controller.
The model should handle all data, the controller should handle processing and the container should handle higher level functioning for gathering the model, the view and the container.
See PHPulse as a very simple example.
Thought they were going to say 'one toke over the line sweet jesus'. Holy smoke indeed!
This gets updated every five years (about as often as a new Microsoft OS gets rolled out). How does this apply to what I said? While fairly stable, not very good about rolling out regular patches and updates.
*sigh* I just spent a week having to do this and I sure as hell don't have the time to lay them all out on Slashdot for one troll. I looked and looked and I currently use Trac but they wanted something more along the lines of Microsoft Project and layed out alot of features that Trac just doesn't have like integration with other applications. Do the research rather than asking someone to do it for you. All decent open source project management tools are all based on Trac (agile 42, a scrum pm tool is also Trac based). So again, Trac is about it and as I said, is pretty damn good but isn't what alot of management wants; they want full integration and other have that.