The butterfly valve you describe is known as a positive air shutoff. They are required on diesel vehicles operating in areas where there is a potential for a combustible atmosphere (for example natural gas plants). I'm considering one, though with install they are very expensive to have just in case of a relatively unlikely failure. probably cheaper to just risk it. (the failure mode could involve a destroyed engine, but how many vehicles would I go through before likely running in to the failure?)
Did you say the same thing about the Toyota drivers a while back? I know that at least one of them ended up being charged after it was proven that his car experienced no failure at all and he just felt like going for a joyride. Several other cases were proven to be a simple failure that the driver could have resolved with either the brake or the ignition, but didn't. The least reliable part of modern complex automobiles is usually the loose nut behind the wheel....
There's no evidence that there has ever been a situation where you couldn't. Yes I read the comments, but this sounds no different from all the panic around Toyotas a while back, where it was proven that in every one of the cases some level of driver error was involved, and in all cases both the brakes, and the ignition switch would have stopped the vehicle. If a full investigation finds otherwise than I may re-think my position, but for now we have one person making highly unlikely claims, the sensible thing it to believe the more likely situation of a simple failure coupled with a panicking driver, rather than to believe in an infallible driver and a multi-system failure.
Manufacturers can try to cover up whatever they want, but NTSB investigations are public record. After all the Toyota stuff a while back it was proven that although there had been failures causing runaway acceleration in some vehicles, every one of them would still have responded to both the brakes and the ignition if properly requested.
And that's the thing, I doubt this fellow's story will stand up. Sure there might have been a failure in the aftermarket modifications, in fact it's likely that said failure caused the acceleration, and depending on the modification, may even have affected the brakes too (not enough information about the modifications is available) however it's highly unlikely that it also affected the ignition. With a minimum of three systems needing to be involved (accelerator, brakes, and ignition) it seems far more likely that there was a failure in one system coupled with driver error, than a failure in all 3 coupled with an infallible driver.
I know in my driver training class years ago we spend a fair amount of time on emergency procedures, we covered loss of power while moving, we covered runaway acceleration, we covered all the normal evasive driving things, etc. But unfortunately driver training isn't mandatory, and none of that stuff is on a driver's test. It probably should be.
And you're apparently a "believe every tall tale spun by random people" type. Good to know people like you exist. I'll stick to reality though.
The truth is that based on thousands of years of documented human behaviour, it seems far more likely that a person would panic and not follow instructions properly in a stressful situation, than that 3 completely unrelated and independent systems (ignition, accelerator, and brakes) would all fail simultaneously. There have been MANY documented and confirmed cases of the former, and NONE of the later.
It is however a shutoff that has absolutely zero documented cases of failure.
I honestly don't care how a system works as long as it does. If we ever find a case where such a system failed, maybe we should review it. but so far none have been proven.
That is in fact far more likely than any other scenario presented so far. The most likely situation was a failure in one system, possibly the accelerator. This caused a panic mode in the driver, who was then unable to figure out how to turn off the car (which admittedly on a push button system is slightly different then turning it off when stopped, so will be an unfamiliar operation) due to the modifications to the vehicle for the disabled driver, it is even possible that the brakes and accelerator both failed (not enough details about the modifications) however that still leaves the ignition.
Unless a review of the situation finds evidence to the contrary, I will believe that there was a relatively simple failure of 1 system, coupled with driver error, rather than the less likely situation of a failure of 3 independent systems coupled with a driver who is infallible. It's simply the most likely situation based on thousands of years of documented human behaviour.
I'm not going to argue that more complex is better, though there are some reasons for the modern innovations. I personally drive a 17 year old vehicle who's version of a "computer" is barely more advanced than an abacus. And I honestly don't like all the modern innovations because of the potential for problems, and the difficulty in repair. (I think one of the absolute worst ones I saw didn't have a physical door handle inside the vehicle to get out, it was simply a button requesting the door to open. Though they did have a backup lever, unfortunately the backup was very well hidden) That said, I also know that the modern innovations are not the death traps some people make them out to be, and you always still have multiple options in case of failure.
Yes the clutch is easier to think of, however it's also riskier for the engine. The brakes are actually even easier to think of though (I'm going too fast, I should slow down, brakes slow me down!) and all cars still have physical brakes capable of overpowering the engine. My point in responding to you was not to disagree with you, but to agree while adding even more options, and pointing out all the ridiculous paranoia of some of the other posters.
The one time that I did have a runaway acceleration problem on a vehicle (yes, I have had it happen due to a physically broken accelerator pedal which slipped on it's mount and jammed on the floor mat) I had a very brief moment of panic, then simply turned off the ignition and stopped safely. of course that sort of reaction doesn't get one in the papers, but it does make for a much safer overall situation. (and I managed to do this without any difficulty despite being on a very narrow road with lots of tight corners)
Of course the fuel shutoff solenoid jamming open has been known to happen too. My old Mercedes Diesel actually had a lever under the hood with a bright red stop sign painted on it for just such an occasion (it was a physical fuel shutoff) I did also talk to someone who had the turbo issue you mentioned on a Mitsubishi Diesel, he was lucky though, he had a snorkel on his truck so he just threw a rag in the snorkel which choked off the air supply (on that particular vehicle the normal air intake is in a thoroughly difficult to access location) Considering I have had a turbo failure dump oil in to the exhaust, and considering how easy it would be for a failure putting oil in to the intake, I keep thinking that I really should develop an emergency plan to deal with such a situation...
I suspect the driver being at fault to be far more likely than any other situation. keep in mind that the technician was on the phone not in the car. All his instructions had to be performed by the driver.
Which is more likely? 1) the physical brakes failed 2) the electronic accelerator jammed AND 3) the ignition stop switch failed
No, that is not the solution. That will cause the loss of power steering and braking.
which is not a problem at all. steering and braking both work just fine without their power assist, they just take more effort. Brakes even have a power reserve so you don't even need to use the "more power" option for a while after turning off the engine.
The car will stop. Also, you can shift it in to neutral. Might not be the best for the engine at high RPMs, but it'll do the trick.
Put the car in neutral with the engine on- this will allow you to maintain control of the vehicle while you stop it. Don't worry about the engine RPM's- the limiter should keep it at a safe RPM.
you could do that, but I'd only ever consider it as a last resort after turning off the ignition. the ignition is a far safer solution.
Not just the driver- none of the police or dispatchers involved seem to have a clue either.
We know the driver was an idiot. there's no evidence that the malfunctioning driver properly executed the commands passed to him by the police, the dispatchers, or the technician. I won't blame anyone who had to relay their commands through him.
Which is more likely: 1) several completely different and unrelated systems, some of which have full manual control to stop the car failed 2) the panicking driver of a runaway vehicle didn't fully and properly follow the engineer's instructions.
Unless there's some serious evidence to be presented, I'm sticking with number 2.
if the steering wheel locks, you're doing it wrong. Every car has an off position before you get to lock. learn to use it, it's much safer than shifting to neutral (of course neutral would still be better than uncontrolled acceleration)
I would say that the fact that he spent an hour or more cruising uncontrolled at high speeds is in fact proof that his mind does not work well enough and that he did panic.
I find it most likely that the Renault technician tried to help, but that the driver would not properly follow commands (accelerator mashed down, "I'm trying to press the brake and it isn't working!!!")
If you couldn't figure any of that out. What business did you have driving the car???? you should NEVER drive a car if you don't understand it's most basic operations.
Well, I would start by pressing the "stop" button. Failing pressing the "stop" button once, I would hold it for 3-5 seconds. Do you have any proof that that would lock the steering? Because I don't believe it would.
It's very hard to come up with a solution when your "customer" is an idiot who doesn't follow your directions. Tech: "have you tried turning off the car?" Driver: "it's accelerating!!!!" Tech: "but have you tried turning it off?" Driver: "it's accelerating!!!!" Tech: "are you listening to me?" Driver: "it's accelerating!!!!" News Article: "the Renault technician couldn't come up with a solution!"
But why would you? much safer and more reliable to simply turn off the engine. You still have steering and brakes and you don't risk your engine at all. Would I ever shift to neutral in one of these situations? maybe as a last resort, but the ignition key is always a better choice.
I have had this happen (accelerator pedal physically broke and jammed on the carpet) After my heart nearly leapt out of my chest, I turned off the engine, brought the car to a controlled stop, found the problem, removed the accelerator pedal, and continued on my way using the accelerator linkage rod instead of the pedal. And all this despite this being an extremely narrow road with many tight curves. Granted being smart about it doesn't get your name in the papers, but it is safer for everyone.
WRONG. turning off the engine NEVER locks the steering unless you're an idiot and turn the key way past off to lock. it also NEVER disables the brakes, only stops providing extra braking power, but you do have a reserve of full powered brakes followed by an unlimited amount of manual brakes which work just fine. First choice should always be to turn off the key. it's safer, and results in less damage. Only if that fails (which there is no evidence has ever happened...) should you shift in to neutral as a last resort (will likely destroy the engine, and possibly other components, but better than an uncontrolled acceleration)
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You have obviously never worked tech support.
And this case is "documented" only after a full review is conducted.
Knowing what I do about how well the average person follows directions, I make no such assumptions.
The butterfly valve you describe is known as a positive air shutoff. They are required on diesel vehicles operating in areas where there is a potential for a combustible atmosphere (for example natural gas plants). I'm considering one, though with install they are very expensive to have just in case of a relatively unlikely failure. probably cheaper to just risk it. (the failure mode could involve a destroyed engine, but how many vehicles would I go through before likely running in to the failure?)
Did you say the same thing about the Toyota drivers a while back? I know that at least one of them ended up being charged after it was proven that his car experienced no failure at all and he just felt like going for a joyride. Several other cases were proven to be a simple failure that the driver could have resolved with either the brake or the ignition, but didn't.
The least reliable part of modern complex automobiles is usually the loose nut behind the wheel....
There's no evidence that there has ever been a situation where you couldn't. Yes I read the comments, but this sounds no different from all the panic around Toyotas a while back, where it was proven that in every one of the cases some level of driver error was involved, and in all cases both the brakes, and the ignition switch would have stopped the vehicle.
If a full investigation finds otherwise than I may re-think my position, but for now we have one person making highly unlikely claims, the sensible thing it to believe the more likely situation of a simple failure coupled with a panicking driver, rather than to believe in an infallible driver and a multi-system failure.
Manufacturers can try to cover up whatever they want, but NTSB investigations are public record. After all the Toyota stuff a while back it was proven that although there had been failures causing runaway acceleration in some vehicles, every one of them would still have responded to both the brakes and the ignition if properly requested.
And that's the thing, I doubt this fellow's story will stand up. Sure there might have been a failure in the aftermarket modifications, in fact it's likely that said failure caused the acceleration, and depending on the modification, may even have affected the brakes too (not enough information about the modifications is available) however it's highly unlikely that it also affected the ignition. With a minimum of three systems needing to be involved (accelerator, brakes, and ignition) it seems far more likely that there was a failure in one system coupled with driver error, than a failure in all 3 coupled with an infallible driver.
I know in my driver training class years ago we spend a fair amount of time on emergency procedures, we covered loss of power while moving, we covered runaway acceleration, we covered all the normal evasive driving things, etc. But unfortunately driver training isn't mandatory, and none of that stuff is on a driver's test. It probably should be.
And you're apparently a "believe every tall tale spun by random people" type. Good to know people like you exist. I'll stick to reality though.
The truth is that based on thousands of years of documented human behaviour, it seems far more likely that a person would panic and not follow instructions properly in a stressful situation, than that 3 completely unrelated and independent systems (ignition, accelerator, and brakes) would all fail simultaneously.
There have been MANY documented and confirmed cases of the former, and NONE of the later.
It is however a shutoff that has absolutely zero documented cases of failure.
I honestly don't care how a system works as long as it does. If we ever find a case where such a system failed, maybe we should review it. but so far none have been proven.
And as I said, you still have a power reserve on the brakes, and they still work even without that. so it's a very good option.
And if the car doesn't have a key, just a push button, you push and hold it for 3-5 seconds. Problem solved.
That is in fact far more likely than any other scenario presented so far.
The most likely situation was a failure in one system, possibly the accelerator. This caused a panic mode in the driver, who was then unable to figure out how to turn off the car (which admittedly on a push button system is slightly different then turning it off when stopped, so will be an unfamiliar operation) due to the modifications to the vehicle for the disabled driver, it is even possible that the brakes and accelerator both failed (not enough details about the modifications) however that still leaves the ignition.
Unless a review of the situation finds evidence to the contrary, I will believe that there was a relatively simple failure of 1 system, coupled with driver error, rather than the less likely situation of a failure of 3 independent systems coupled with a driver who is infallible. It's simply the most likely situation based on thousands of years of documented human behaviour.
I'm not going to argue that more complex is better, though there are some reasons for the modern innovations. I personally drive a 17 year old vehicle who's version of a "computer" is barely more advanced than an abacus. And I honestly don't like all the modern innovations because of the potential for problems, and the difficulty in repair. (I think one of the absolute worst ones I saw didn't have a physical door handle inside the vehicle to get out, it was simply a button requesting the door to open. Though they did have a backup lever, unfortunately the backup was very well hidden)
That said, I also know that the modern innovations are not the death traps some people make them out to be, and you always still have multiple options in case of failure.
Yes the clutch is easier to think of, however it's also riskier for the engine. The brakes are actually even easier to think of though (I'm going too fast, I should slow down, brakes slow me down!) and all cars still have physical brakes capable of overpowering the engine. My point in responding to you was not to disagree with you, but to agree while adding even more options, and pointing out all the ridiculous paranoia of some of the other posters.
The one time that I did have a runaway acceleration problem on a vehicle (yes, I have had it happen due to a physically broken accelerator pedal which slipped on it's mount and jammed on the floor mat) I had a very brief moment of panic, then simply turned off the ignition and stopped safely. of course that sort of reaction doesn't get one in the papers, but it does make for a much safer overall situation. (and I managed to do this without any difficulty despite being on a very narrow road with lots of tight corners)
Of course the fuel shutoff solenoid jamming open has been known to happen too. My old Mercedes Diesel actually had a lever under the hood with a bright red stop sign painted on it for just such an occasion (it was a physical fuel shutoff) I did also talk to someone who had the turbo issue you mentioned on a Mitsubishi Diesel, he was lucky though, he had a snorkel on his truck so he just threw a rag in the snorkel which choked off the air supply (on that particular vehicle the normal air intake is in a thoroughly difficult to access location) Considering I have had a turbo failure dump oil in to the exhaust, and considering how easy it would be for a failure putting oil in to the intake, I keep thinking that I really should develop an emergency plan to deal with such a situation...
Do you have any evidence that he follows instructions properly?
I suspect the driver being at fault to be far more likely than any other situation.
keep in mind that the technician was on the phone not in the car. All his instructions had to be performed by the driver.
Which is more likely?
1) the physical brakes failed
2) the electronic accelerator jammed
AND
3) the ignition stop switch failed
or that only one component failed.
4) the driver
What the police think of is irrelevant if the driver is panicking and not following their directions properly.
Turn it to "off" and the engine will lose power.
No, that is not the solution. That will cause the loss of power steering and braking.
which is not a problem at all. steering and braking both work just fine without their power assist, they just take more effort. Brakes even have a power reserve so you don't even need to use the "more power" option for a while after turning off the engine.
The car will stop. Also, you can shift it in to neutral. Might not be the best for the engine at high RPMs, but it'll do the trick.
Put the car in neutral with the engine on- this will allow you to maintain control of the vehicle while you stop it. Don't worry about the engine RPM's- the limiter should keep it at a safe RPM.
you could do that, but I'd only ever consider it as a last resort after turning off the ignition. the ignition is a far safer solution.
Not just the driver- none of the police or dispatchers involved seem to have a clue either.
We know the driver was an idiot. there's no evidence that the malfunctioning driver properly executed the commands passed to him by the police, the dispatchers, or the technician. I won't blame anyone who had to relay their commands through him.
I can't solve people's computer problems when they don't follow my directions either. doesn't mean their computers are to blame....
I'd love to see more information on modifications that prevent the vehicle being turned off... that sounds like a real winner!
Which is more likely:
1) several completely different and unrelated systems, some of which have full manual control to stop the car failed
2) the panicking driver of a runaway vehicle didn't fully and properly follow the engineer's instructions.
Unless there's some serious evidence to be presented, I'm sticking with number 2.
if the steering wheel locks, you're doing it wrong. Every car has an off position before you get to lock. learn to use it, it's much safer than shifting to neutral (of course neutral would still be better than uncontrolled acceleration)
I would say that the fact that he spent an hour or more cruising uncontrolled at high speeds is in fact proof that his mind does not work well enough and that he did panic.
I find it most likely that the Renault technician tried to help, but that the driver would not properly follow commands (accelerator mashed down, "I'm trying to press the brake and it isn't working!!!")
If you couldn't figure any of that out. What business did you have driving the car???? you should NEVER drive a car if you don't understand it's most basic operations.
Well, I would start by pressing the "stop" button. Failing pressing the "stop" button once, I would hold it for 3-5 seconds. Do you have any proof that that would lock the steering? Because I don't believe it would.
It's very hard to come up with a solution when your "customer" is an idiot who doesn't follow your directions.
Tech: "have you tried turning off the car?"
Driver: "it's accelerating!!!!"
Tech: "but have you tried turning it off?"
Driver: "it's accelerating!!!!"
Tech: "are you listening to me?"
Driver: "it's accelerating!!!!"
News Article: "the Renault technician couldn't come up with a solution!"
But why would you? much safer and more reliable to simply turn off the engine. You still have steering and brakes and you don't risk your engine at all. Would I ever shift to neutral in one of these situations? maybe as a last resort, but the ignition key is always a better choice.
I have had this happen (accelerator pedal physically broke and jammed on the carpet) After my heart nearly leapt out of my chest, I turned off the engine, brought the car to a controlled stop, found the problem, removed the accelerator pedal, and continued on my way using the accelerator linkage rod instead of the pedal. And all this despite this being an extremely narrow road with many tight curves. Granted being smart about it doesn't get your name in the papers, but it is safer for everyone.
WRONG. turning off the engine NEVER locks the steering unless you're an idiot and turn the key way past off to lock. it also NEVER disables the brakes, only stops providing extra braking power, but you do have a reserve of full powered brakes followed by an unlimited amount of manual brakes which work just fine.
First choice should always be to turn off the key. it's safer, and results in less damage. Only if that fails (which there is no evidence has ever happened...) should you shift in to neutral as a last resort (will likely destroy the engine, and possibly other components, but better than an uncontrolled acceleration)