Owning a gun isn't illegal either, but it can be used illegally. If people were fireing guns all over campus, wouldn't it make sense to check and see they were breaking a law?
No, not really. Well, I mean, the analogy needs some work, but no, I shouldn't have to take time away from preventative maintenance and trouble tickets because there is a chance that someone is breaking the law. I mean, there could be any number of reasons for the traffic, it doesn't have to be Napster. A better analogy might be cars. Lots of people drive cars, and some people speed, so should cars be equiped with a little device that prints out a ticket everytime the spedometer shows that you're exceeding the local speed limit? It would hardly be beyond present technical capabilities, but it would also be very Big Brother. It's not going to happen on my network - I'll quit first. Now if we see a problem and trace it to a single resnet wallplate, sure, lets set up a sniffer and watch them, because they're screwing with network performance for everyone. But monitoring without cause is very iffy. I think even if we wanted to, the school's lawyers might take issue...
I'd rather vote for Gore so I can continue to argue for my 2nd amendment rights back. If you vote Dubya, you need your 2nd amendment rights for the armed rebellion that we'll need to get our 1st amendment rights back...
Dude, where are you getting info about Philly or DC cops torturing protestors? Do you have any references or anything for that? Ditto the denying them lawyers part.
Dude, have you read Letter from a Birmingham Jail? Civil Disobediance is all about getting yourself arrested, as a method of drawing attention to the injustice of the law. Hence the notion of violating segregation laws to draw attention to the wrongness inherent in segregation laws. Which is what MLKjr and his co-protestors did in many cases. Which at some point has evolved a modern variation: lying down in the street to get arrested to draw attention to the injustice of (insert protestor's cause of choice here). Maybe sprouted from chaining-self-to-(insert inert building-like object here, or maybe a fence)? Thats the joy and beauty of civil disobediance.
Since I live less than a block from where most of the violence happened, and I walked to work through some of the protesting and conventioning and such, I might point out that there were a number of vandals and rioter/looter types mixed in. A very small number, but they did a fair bit of damage. There were a shitload of cops, and they were generally pretty well behaved as these things go. Sure, they pulled some bad stuff (warehouse raid, 13th and sansom puppet raid), but they were generally pretty mellow, and they were very conservative with the pepper spray and tear gas. KWRU ran a major protest down Broad Street in the middle of the day that the cops had said they would not allow, and they let them slide. So don't go crying for all of the people who got locked up. There were some assholes who were here for nothing but violence and property damage.
You know, he's executed 138 people since becoming Governor W of Texas. That is like, a lot. The man is bloodthirsty. There are a lot of states that have suspended the death penalty because of doubts that it is being evenhandedly applied. Bush has killed at least one a week since he got elected. Now I support the death penalty in extreme cases, but i really think that it is something that should be used very carefully. You're right, he's a slimy little nasty frog. No offense intended toward actual frogs. Compassionate conservatism indeed. Prez. Clinton said something great about that the other day, something along the lines of "Gee, we're really sorry that you are unemployed and need help until you can get a job, and that you need job training. And it just breaks my heart that you are homeless and hungry. We wont help you, but we feel really bad about it."
itachi, who really would rather vote for a frog than the Shrub
The core of the cs program at Oberlin, too. Chez Scheme. Although I never liked the bit about writing a scheme interpreter in scheme. It got a little too inside-out...
So then we're back to my original question, which is why? And it's a question for the developer of the perl script too, because why would you write a script that will do this if not as POC? Now instead of writing POC, you're talking about writing a piece of code that will do nothing but aid you in being a jerk...
Right, but at some point, in order to have a successful two-way communication, the spammer/cracker/whatever is going to have to be recieving packets back. Not for the spammed text to k5, but at least for a telnet/ssh session to the comprimised hosts to start up the perl script. What i really am saying is that at some point, they had shell on the comprimised host, and that IP can't be spoofed. Even if they use a bunch of comprimised hosts, maybe one in the middle that is just redirecting, somewhere there is an IP address that can be tracked back to a machine that they were using to do this. But like I said, it's tracking it all the way back that's the problem...
True. Although shouldn't a responsible developer develop the POC, notify the authors af the bug, and maybe even offer up a patch? Preferably before releasing the POC code to anyone who asks? But I did make an invalid assumption, and it is just a tool. And to answer your side note,/. should be able to pull IPs from server logs. Unless the commentator goes to an _awful_ lot of trouble. Or is running through a proxy.
itachi, who spoke too soon. But is still curious as to motivation...
Don't you have better things to do with your time? Developing the perl as a proof-of-concept, sure, and maybe I could even see beating the crap out of k5 with it for a few minutes to test it (although really, testing against your own scoop server would be much more polite), but why keep hitting it? Knocking down k5 for fun doesn't make you anything but a pain in the ass. And not a very well liked one, at the moment, judging from all the bitching and griping by k5 fans....
You can't spoof the IP in a two-way communication (like desktop.evilcracker.org telneting or whatever to helpless.victim.net). You can spoof the MAC in an ethernet header. IP headers wont contain the MAC, though. So there will be reliable IPs that can be tracked back toward the cracker from the boxes that were used for this. Of course, tracking the trail all the way back to a person at a keyboard is the trick.
I think you really want to use: access-list access-list-number {permit | deny} {type-code wild-mask | address mask} For more info, see here.
The Cisco ACLs are really nice, and with some planning, you can make them really short and compact, which will make things faster. Somebody mentioned in another thread that with ACLs, it's really quality over quantity.
Fair enough. I suppose geography can make a difference. Still, in Canada you could still have a lot of fun in an Audi (pick anything quattro, I'd personally go with the S4 or TT), any of the rally cars from Subaru, etc. Y'all can buy Peugot in Canada, right? They make some nice rally sedans. A 4wd wagon makes better sense than an SUV, because you get the car benefits (better handling, lower center of gravity) with 4wd and plenty of hauling space (which are things that not evry SUV provides, for that matter). Plus you still get pretty good fuel milage, eh?
itachi, who thinks that rear drive in canada could suck big time
-rant- Shoot the kids. Or send them off to some island until they're 18. Just enough with the "save the precious children" BS laws. Passing a law like this isn't going to do anymore for kids than passing a law dictating that all children will grow up happy and healthy. It's not like there aren't things that could be done to do all the "save the precious children" BS. I'm not saying that kids need violent video games - I'm all in favor of depriving the little brats of anything good and fun until they're 21. But really, couldn't we (for those of us who live in the US) get our legislators to do better things with our time and money? Like trim the fat out of the budget, get some of that social change action going, and make the world a better place? Bleah. -end rant-
Oh, what a load of crap. Have you ever looked at an MGB GT? A mid 60's mopar muscle car? Pretty much anything small, red, and italian? Sure, a small british sports car might have less horsepower than your soccer-mom-mobile, but it can corner like you wouldn't belive, and 1/3 the horsepower in a car 1/4 the weight makes for some wicked speed. What I wouldn't give for a 68 charger 440...
Well, yah, but you'll be dead in single car accidents that Festiva drivers wont get into. In Sweden they have a "moose-avoidance" test. If you're trucking down the road, and you turn the corner to find a moose standing there, you need to swerve to avoid hitting the moose. If you hit the moose, you will be toasted. Moose are big. So while the festiva, being small and close to the ground, can swerve safely around a moose while travelling at 35mph, your excusrion will lose control and roll. Everyone driving by in their itty-bitty little festivas will wonder why you look so short, having had an SUV resting on top of you. SUVs are really not safer as a general rule - they have very poor handling, a very high center of gravity, and huge, sail-like sides that will make crosswinds a major problem. In fact, I would argue that the assumed safety of SUVs makes them more dangerous because they encourage drivers who don't know any better to act like idiots and get themselves killed.
Yah, but the ladder frame in an SUV is a less solid structure than the frame in a sedan. Sure, you have a big heavy steel car, but you're relying on two i-beams for solidity rather than a cross-braced cage frame. There may be more steel by weight, but anyone who knows anything about structural engineering can tell you that the heavier structure is not necessarily the sturdier structure. The SUV frame isn't built to deform the way a car frame does. You literally have just a ladder frame, none of the nice crumple-zone stuff. As for SUV's being higher off the ground, this is true, but this means that an SUV is _more_ dangerous. You have a higher center of gravity, making emergency maneuvering more risky, and making the possibility of a rollover higher. Also, the height makes it harder to see small peds (cats, dogs, kids, etc) that are close to the vehicle. I'll take a itty-bitty well designed car any day over a big, brutish tall station wagon designed for hauling inanimate crap. SUV's suck for everything that cars are used for, including off-roading. For that, you need a real 4wd truck, not the pansy-ass crap that soccer moms drive. I'd rather have a AMG Hammer in a crash situation - if I can't swerve, brake, or accelerate out of the situation, I've still got a good chance of living. But chances are, I can avoid it altogether.
Someone driving a large SUV jumped the curb and plowed into a playground full of kids. Should we ban SUV's because someone misused it? Or how about punishing the person committing the crime. Well of course we should ban SUVs, although not because of the one idiot with the playgound full of children. All the soccer moms might try making the kid walk to whatever, and let's face it, SUVs are just really tall gas guzzling station wagons that make it harder for everyone else on the road to see. But guns really need a more complicated solution, don't you think? Here in Philly, there's a program that the NRA has been pushing where repeat offenders are getting huge federal time thrown at them for gun related crimes. They had some snazzy name for it, and there are a lot fewer criminals with guns in the area. That's certainly helping. But the 2-gun a month law in Virginia is also helping reduce gun violence by making it harder to buy grey-market guns on the East Coast. The fact remains that if Joe Potentialcriminal can't buy a gun, he can't shoot anyone. You really can't put all the blame on people or all the blame on guns, it takes a person with a gun to shoot someone, neither can do it alone. And don't let the National Pointy Stick Association hear you blaming pointy stick violence on the pointy sticks themselves, they'll never let you her the end of it.;)
What about the MIB? You can't tell me that an insurance co. will let you sign up without waiving your rights to object to info being shared with the MIB. The fact remains, there are plenty of cases of leaked medical data (political campaign fodder, life insurance/home loans/etc), though not necessarily directly from the medical records. The MIB, or pharmacy companies cross-referencing records with credit card companies, all add up to not enough protection of medical information within the U.S. There may be a penalty on miuse of the file itself, but I'm more concerned about the sum of the data that the source of the data. And as of a year or two ago, about half of the states in the U.S. did NOT have any sort of guarantee that a patient could double check their own records.
What is it today? Garfinkel writes about privacy and security. Look at the books he has written, and then read the article, and you will see that this has nothing to do with shutting down the internet. If you teach people to use ssh and non-obvious passwords, you are teaching them about security. What an odd thing for a college to do. Next they'll offer courses.
Go to Ora.com and check out what Simson Garfinkel has written. Try reading some of it. Look through the/. book reviews from around April. The dude knows what he is talking about, and he is raising a valid point. Have you ever tried browsing around the web for a while with your broswer alerting you before accepting cookies? I would say 99% of the websites that insist that I use a cookie don't use it for anything related to the website itself. Garfinkel is saying that the use of non-encrypted protocols and a lack of good security/privacy policy in a.edu environment can result in some severe violations of privacy. Look at how many schools are starting to add online applications. Identity theft is much scarier to me than having a machine I work with broken into. A machine can be rebuilt. It can take several YEARS to recover from identity theft.
There was a similar case in Illinois within the last few years. Some McDonald had been running a family restraunt for a while in the middle of a small town, and when company with the arches decided that they wanted to move into the area with their own restraunt, they tried to sue the small family joint into the ground. Needless to say, the local population was less than pleased, and fortunately, the family restraunt won. What i want to see is someone open a really terrible chain of fast food places and try to get away with calling it "Ray Kroc's". The irony (and justice) in that would be faboo.
Good beer is local beer, and that's all there is to it. Since the UK is pretty small, geographically speaking, everything is going to be local. But man, some of the beer in the US isn't half bad. Great Lakes Brewery makes a wicked dortmunder, Victory (in PA) makes all kinds of good beer, and Bert Grant's out in the northwest is hard to beat. We're not talking some Sam Adams BS "it must be good because we charge you $7 a six pack" beer, we're talking beer that has taste you can't beat. You just have to look for it and drink like a fish, the same way you'd go about finding a _good_ restraunt meal.
itachi
ps - despite the brewery, I highly recommend the hefe-weissen from Miller. I think it was Miller. It may be Busch... Actual good beer from a major US brewer, believe it or not.
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Owning a gun isn't illegal either, but it can be used illegally. If people were fireing guns all over campus, wouldn't it make sense to check and see they were breaking a law?
No, not really. Well, I mean, the analogy needs some work, but no, I shouldn't have to take time away from preventative maintenance and trouble tickets because there is a chance that someone is breaking the law. I mean, there could be any number of reasons for the traffic, it doesn't have to be Napster. A better analogy might be cars. Lots of people drive cars, and some people speed, so should cars be equiped with a little device that prints out a ticket everytime the spedometer shows that you're exceeding the local speed limit? It would hardly be beyond present technical capabilities, but it would also be very Big Brother. It's not going to happen on my network - I'll quit first. Now if we see a problem and trace it to a single resnet wallplate, sure, lets set up a sniffer and watch them, because they're screwing with network performance for everyone. But monitoring without cause is very iffy. I think even if we wanted to, the school's lawyers might take issue...
itachi
I'd rather vote for Gore so I can continue to argue for my 2nd amendment rights back. If you vote Dubya, you need your 2nd amendment rights for the armed rebellion that we'll need to get our 1st amendment rights back...
itachi
Dude, where are you getting info about Philly or DC cops torturing protestors? Do you have any references or anything for that? Ditto the denying them lawyers part.
itachi
Dude, have you read Letter from a Birmingham Jail? Civil Disobediance is all about getting yourself arrested, as a method of drawing attention to the injustice of the law. Hence the notion of violating segregation laws to draw attention to the wrongness inherent in segregation laws. Which is what MLKjr and his co-protestors did in many cases. Which at some point has evolved a modern variation: lying down in the street to get arrested to draw attention to the injustice of (insert protestor's cause of choice here). Maybe sprouted from chaining-self-to-(insert inert building-like object here, or maybe a fence)? Thats the joy and beauty of civil disobediance.
itachi
Since I live less than a block from where most of the violence happened, and I walked to work through some of the protesting and conventioning and such, I might point out that there were a number of vandals and rioter/looter types mixed in. A very small number, but they did a fair bit of damage. There were a shitload of cops, and they were generally pretty well behaved as these things go. Sure, they pulled some bad stuff (warehouse raid, 13th and sansom puppet raid), but they were generally pretty mellow, and they were very conservative with the pepper spray and tear gas. KWRU ran a major protest down Broad Street in the middle of the day that the cops had said they would not allow, and they let them slide. So don't go crying for all of the people who got locked up. There were some assholes who were here for nothing but violence and property damage.
itachi
You know, he's executed 138 people since becoming Governor W of Texas. That is like, a lot. The man is bloodthirsty. There are a lot of states that have suspended the death penalty because of doubts that it is being evenhandedly applied. Bush has killed at least one a week since he got elected. Now I support the death penalty in extreme cases, but i really think that it is something that should be used very carefully. You're right, he's a slimy little nasty frog. No offense intended toward actual frogs. Compassionate conservatism indeed. Prez. Clinton said something great about that the other day, something along the lines of "Gee, we're really sorry that you are unemployed and need help until you can get a job, and that you need job training. And it just breaks my heart that you are homeless and hungry. We wont help you, but we feel really bad about it."
itachi, who really would rather vote for a frog than the Shrub
The core of the cs program at Oberlin, too. Chez Scheme. Although I never liked the bit about writing a scheme interpreter in scheme. It got a little too inside-out...
So then we're back to my original question, which is why? And it's a question for the developer of the perl script too, because why would you write a script that will do this if not as POC? Now instead of writing POC, you're talking about writing a piece of code that will do nothing but aid you in being a jerk...
itachi
Right, but at some point, in order to have a successful two-way communication, the spammer/cracker/whatever is going to have to be recieving packets back. Not for the spammed text to k5, but at least for a telnet/ssh session to the comprimised hosts to start up the perl script. What i really am saying is that at some point, they had shell on the comprimised host, and that IP can't be spoofed. Even if they use a bunch of comprimised hosts, maybe one in the middle that is just redirecting, somewhere there is an IP address that can be tracked back to a machine that they were using to do this. But like I said, it's tracking it all the way back that's the problem...
itachi
True. Although shouldn't a responsible developer develop the POC, notify the authors af the bug, and maybe even offer up a patch? Preferably before releasing the POC code to anyone who asks? But I did make an invalid assumption, and it is just a tool. And to answer your side note, /. should be able to pull IPs from server logs. Unless the commentator goes to an _awful_ lot of trouble. Or is running through a proxy.
itachi, who spoke too soon. But is still curious as to motivation...
Don't you have better things to do with your time? Developing the perl as a proof-of-concept, sure, and maybe I could even see beating the crap out of k5 with it for a few minutes to test it (although really, testing against your own scoop server would be much more polite), but why keep hitting it? Knocking down k5 for fun doesn't make you anything but a pain in the ass. And not a very well liked one, at the moment, judging from all the bitching and griping by k5 fans....
itachi, responding to a troll for no good reason
You can't spoof the IP in a two-way communication (like desktop.evilcracker.org telneting or whatever to helpless.victim.net). You can spoof the MAC in an ethernet header. IP headers wont contain the MAC, though. So there will be reliable IPs that can be tracked back toward the cracker from the boxes that were used for this. Of course, tracking the trail all the way back to a person at a keyboard is the trick.
itachi
I think you really want to use:
access-list access-list-number {permit | deny} {type-code wild-mask | address mask}
For more info, see here.
The Cisco ACLs are really nice, and with some planning, you can make them really short and compact, which will make things faster. Somebody mentioned in another thread that with ACLs, it's really quality over quantity.
itachi
Fair enough. I suppose geography can make a difference. Still, in Canada you could still have a lot of fun in an Audi (pick anything quattro, I'd personally go with the S4 or TT), any of the rally cars from Subaru, etc. Y'all can buy Peugot in Canada, right? They make some nice rally sedans. A 4wd wagon makes better sense than an SUV, because you get the car benefits (better handling, lower center of gravity) with 4wd and plenty of hauling space (which are things that not evry SUV provides, for that matter). Plus you still get pretty good fuel milage, eh?
itachi, who thinks that rear drive in canada could suck big time
-rant-
Shoot the kids. Or send them off to some island until they're 18. Just enough with the "save the precious children" BS laws. Passing a law like this isn't going to do anymore for kids than passing a law dictating that all children will grow up happy and healthy. It's not like there aren't things that could be done to do all the "save the precious children" BS. I'm not saying that kids need violent video games - I'm all in favor of depriving the little brats of anything good and fun until they're 21. But really, couldn't we (for those of us who live in the US) get our legislators to do better things with our time and money? Like trim the fat out of the budget, get some of that social change action going, and make the world a better place? Bleah.
-end rant-
itachi, who thinks that idealism is a downer
Oh, what a load of crap. Have you ever looked at an MGB GT? A mid 60's mopar muscle car? Pretty much anything small, red, and italian? Sure, a small british sports car might have less horsepower than your soccer-mom-mobile, but it can corner like you wouldn't belive, and 1/3 the horsepower in a car 1/4 the weight makes for some wicked speed. What I wouldn't give for a 68 charger 440...
itachi
Well, yah, but you'll be dead in single car accidents that Festiva drivers wont get into. In Sweden they have a "moose-avoidance" test. If you're trucking down the road, and you turn the corner to find a moose standing there, you need to swerve to avoid hitting the moose. If you hit the moose, you will be toasted. Moose are big. So while the festiva, being small and close to the ground, can swerve safely around a moose while travelling at 35mph, your excusrion will lose control and roll. Everyone driving by in their itty-bitty little festivas will wonder why you look so short, having had an SUV resting on top of you. SUVs are really not safer as a general rule - they have very poor handling, a very high center of gravity, and huge, sail-like sides that will make crosswinds a major problem. In fact, I would argue that the assumed safety of SUVs makes them more dangerous because they encourage drivers who don't know any better to act like idiots and get themselves killed.
itachi
Yah, but the ladder frame in an SUV is a less solid structure than the frame in a sedan. Sure, you have a big heavy steel car, but you're relying on two i-beams for solidity rather than a cross-braced cage frame. There may be more steel by weight, but anyone who knows anything about structural engineering can tell you that the heavier structure is not necessarily the sturdier structure. The SUV frame isn't built to deform the way a car frame does. You literally have just a ladder frame, none of the nice crumple-zone stuff. As for SUV's being higher off the ground, this is true, but this means that an SUV is _more_ dangerous. You have a higher center of gravity, making emergency maneuvering more risky, and making the possibility of a rollover higher. Also, the height makes it harder to see small peds (cats, dogs, kids, etc) that are close to the vehicle. I'll take a itty-bitty well designed car any day over a big, brutish tall station wagon designed for hauling inanimate crap. SUV's suck for everything that cars are used for, including off-roading. For that, you need a real 4wd truck, not the pansy-ass crap that soccer moms drive. I'd rather have a AMG Hammer in a crash situation - if I can't swerve, brake, or accelerate out of the situation, I've still got a good chance of living. But chances are, I can avoid it altogether.
itachi
Or, from another point of view, if god didn't want us to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?
mmmm, meat
Someone driving a large SUV jumped the curb and plowed into a playground full of kids. Should we ban SUV's because someone misused it? Or how about punishing the person committing the crime. ;)
Well of course we should ban SUVs, although not because of the one idiot with the playgound full of children. All the soccer moms might try making the kid walk to whatever, and let's face it, SUVs are just really tall gas guzzling station wagons that make it harder for everyone else on the road to see. But guns really need a more complicated solution, don't you think? Here in Philly, there's a program that the NRA has been pushing where repeat offenders are getting huge federal time thrown at them for gun related crimes. They had some snazzy name for it, and there are a lot fewer criminals with guns in the area. That's certainly helping. But the 2-gun a month law in Virginia is also helping reduce gun violence by making it harder to buy grey-market guns on the East Coast. The fact remains that if Joe Potentialcriminal can't buy a gun, he can't shoot anyone. You really can't put all the blame on people or all the blame on guns, it takes a person with a gun to shoot someone, neither can do it alone. And don't let the National Pointy Stick Association hear you blaming pointy stick violence on the pointy sticks themselves, they'll never let you her the end of it.
itachi
What about the MIB? You can't tell me that an insurance co. will let you sign up without waiving your rights to object to info being shared with the MIB. The fact remains, there are plenty of cases of leaked medical data (political campaign fodder, life insurance/home loans/etc), though not necessarily directly from the medical records. The MIB, or pharmacy companies cross-referencing records with credit card companies, all add up to not enough protection of medical information within the U.S. There may be a penalty on miuse of the file itself, but I'm more concerned about the sum of the data that the source of the data. And as of a year or two ago, about half of the states in the U.S. did NOT have any sort of guarantee that a patient could double check their own records.
itachi
What is it today? Garfinkel writes about privacy and security. Look at the books he has written, and then read the article, and you will see that this has nothing to do with shutting down the internet. If you teach people to use ssh and non-obvious passwords, you are teaching them about security. What an odd thing for a college to do. Next they'll offer courses.
itachi
Go to Ora.com and check out what Simson Garfinkel has written. Try reading some of it. Look through the /. book reviews from around April. The dude knows what he is talking about, and he is raising a valid point. Have you ever tried browsing around the web for a while with your broswer alerting you before accepting cookies? I would say 99% of the websites that insist that I use a cookie don't use it for anything related to the website itself. Garfinkel is saying that the use of non-encrypted protocols and a lack of good security/privacy policy in a .edu environment can result in some severe violations of privacy. Look at how many schools are starting to add online applications. Identity theft is much scarier to me than having a machine I work with broken into. A machine can be rebuilt. It can take several YEARS to recover from identity theft.
itachi
There was a similar case in Illinois within the last few years. Some McDonald had been running a family restraunt for a while in the middle of a small town, and when company with the arches decided that they wanted to move into the area with their own restraunt, they tried to sue the small family joint into the ground. Needless to say, the local population was less than pleased, and fortunately, the family restraunt won. What i want to see is someone open a really terrible chain of fast food places and try to get away with calling it "Ray Kroc's". The irony (and justice) in that would be faboo.
itachi
Good beer is local beer, and that's all there is to it. Since the UK is pretty small, geographically speaking, everything is going to be local. But man, some of the beer in the US isn't half bad. Great Lakes Brewery makes a wicked dortmunder, Victory (in PA) makes all kinds of good beer, and Bert Grant's out in the northwest is hard to beat. We're not talking some Sam Adams BS "it must be good because we charge you $7 a six pack" beer, we're talking beer that has taste you can't beat. You just have to look for it and drink like a fish, the same way you'd go about finding a _good_ restraunt meal.
itachi
ps - despite the brewery, I highly recommend the hefe-weissen from Miller. I think it was Miller. It may be Busch... Actual good beer from a major US brewer, believe it or not.