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Ars Reviews Honda Insight
GeekLife.com writes "Ars Technica has posted another of their indepth reviews, this time of the Honda Insight (that gas-electric hybrid). Not just a normal Honda Insight, though, this one's been tricked up with LCD screens replacing the side mirrors, and a *portable windmill* that can recharge the battery. Not the prettiest of devices, but with gas prices continuing up, it's definitely starting to look a bit more attractive."
Shouldn't your sig say "life is a waste of time"?
80mph! Sometimes, but on sunday coming back into the twin cities on 94, for example, I was doing 85mph (in my 1988 Ford Bronco II w/ 222k mi) and getting passed by half the cars on the road. Damn sunday drivers! :)
Photos of bits of the past hiding in the present: afiler.com
The Insight, gets only 70mpg, and has less power.
These reasons, in addition to some of the ArsTechnica (What's with this whole 'Ars' thing, anyway?) comments like The car doesn't exactly inspire confidence when taken hard around a bend in the road and The manual transmission is a bit notchy and the clutch is a bit lightweight (feels like a toy actually), are why I'd much rather drive the Lupo. Small VWs kick ass. (Though I now own a big VW.)
This, and you'll find it much easier to find a mechanic with the skills and equipment to diagnose and fix a pure deisel engine (even one as advanced as VW's TDi engines) than one who knows the internals of Honda's hybrid, which means maintenance costs will be lower.
Too bad you can't pick up the Lupo in the States, but you can get its cousin, the Golf, which is an awesome car for its price..
I hate to sound like a VW commercial here, but Honda may have a solution for something that's already been solved, at least in Europe..
Batteries are guaranteed to last 8 years under the warranty.
If they die before then, Honda replaces them for free.
Ohh I see, so because others do far more Damage, we shouldn't worry about how much we do to the enviroment?.. arrogant bastard.
YES!! FUCK THE ENVIRONMENT... god damn it... lets just leave...
maybe if you log in I'll give you my actual response you waste of life... go down to the corner and collect your handout like the rest of the scum.
YouTube & Google Video -> podcast http://castcluster.blogspot.com/
"Driving *should* be only about transportation."
Why? Is sex only about procreation? Is eating only about sustenance? Should we get rid of boats, personal watercraft, and anything else that runs on gas for recreational use?
"Hmm. Why do some cities have serious emissions rules, and others don't? Because.. some cities are windy, and polution gets sent 'elsewhere'.. so why should they care."
That's one opinion. Another opinion is that some cities have MORE CARS than others, and therefore generate more pollution, and THEREFORE need stricter emissions laws to survive. LA comes to mind.
"This north-american infatuation with cars is rediculous. (sic)"
Would this so-called infatuation be OK with you if all the vehicles were non-polluters? I mean, is your beef with the pollution, or the fact that north-americans have a quality of life that allows them to buy more cars than most parts of the world?
Really?
-thomas
"And like that
All that'd result in is a wandering mouse pointer on the screen. Whenever the battery gets low, the mouse pointer stops staying put, so you need to keep moving the mouse to keep the laptop running... (Of course, that'd only really be an issue if you were using "focus follows mouse", like all true Unix zealots do... ;-) )
--Joe--
Program Intellivision!
Is this really THE D-cell? My biggest fear of getting one of these cars was the cost to replace the battery plant. Using commodity cells just seems too good to be true. I wonder how long the cheapie Radio Shack D-Cells will work? Remember the Radio Shack free battery club? Since there is a federal law* that there must be a Radio Shack in every shopping center and Mall, running around to 120 of them is not a difficult task! :)
* Hint: Uh, that's a joke...
I'm 6'7" and I test drove the Honda Insight at a Sierra Club summit on electric cars. I fit okay--the Insight is a two-seater and the seats slide back pretty far. Compare to the Toyota Prius, arguably a more marvellous and prettier piece of engineering, but as a four-seater the driver seat slide is hampered by concerns for the blood circulation of the backseat passengers (as if!). So as a giant I would argue in favor of the Insight on this one. Or you can wait until Ford makes an electric Crown Vic.
Ben Chadwick - Editor, Zero Future/Post-Collegiate Malaise
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
As most avid car enthusiasts know, the EV1 was a "beta release" at best. According to many owners, it was a good idea, but not as good in real life. The EV-2, which will come out in November, I think will be a lot better, both in efficiency and in cost. Will it be as good as the insight, or better? Also, can it compete in the Honda-dominated small economy car market?
-----------------------------------------
Perversely greped and groped by PowerPenguin
It doesn't matter if they are apples or oranges. Linux is a cramped, strangely designed operating system that has unique (read: hard to fix or find support for) technology.
Microsoft's Windows is very common, easy to install, and support a ton more programs.
Most importantly, Linux, and similar OSes are given away by their manufacturers, which from a business point of view translates into their being on the short list of ditchable products when things get tight.
Windows is profitable, and is in high demand. Even more so in Russia, where piracy is more common.
In fact, the latest release of Windows, WinME, is the fastest release yet, with a normal computer, and makes a proffit for the company.
Shouldn't use average. You figure prices for a New caddie, or corvette, or porsche, or McLehren (sp?) F1 . . . those WILL skew the math.
You can get a newish chevy malabu (99) for about 16k, including CD, air, etc. I don't have the Black/Blue book program on this PC, and I'm too lazy to find the web site, so these aren't exact numbers.
And, IMO, the malabu isn't that bad. I haven't crashed in one, but it ain't uncomfy (i'm 6 2).
Later
Dan
Damn straight.
Stupid little sports cars are at least as "bad" as SUV's. It's too bad the hitch didnt go right through his empty skull... at least then you woulda had a picture to sell to the penis bird guy.
I don't drive drunk
me niether... just making a point... I'm one of the safest drivers I know.. Its the Hoochies w/cell phones I'm scared of... even more than drunks...
YouTube & Google Video -> podcast http://castcluster.blogspot.com/
Its an old Simpsons thing.
It has nothing to do with the Simpsons. You didn't follow the link. It was a repost of the story on BBSpot, which he linked to in the first line of his post. (duh)
"I will gladly pay you today, sir, and eat up
Sacred cows make the best burgers.
Nope, I just think it's better said arse technica.
Last I looked the Lupo project was averaging 97.6 US mpg, no propellors, or anything.
I agree, the lights on SUVs can be annoying at times, and extremely bright. I drive a new Celica, and around where I am, people looove to run around town in their SUVs with the 3x-as-bright-as-headlight fog lights mounted at about the point of my rear-view mirror :) Of course, the argument is "they keep me safe by allowing me to see more". So I get to see less. Anyways, you know how dark those big cities are at night, right? :)
I didn't misinterpret the post I replied to. Read the last line where he says "Which do you think is the future?"
;).
The GM EV1 comes to mind (re: Honda is gonna want 'em back)....yeah, they probably won't buy them all, back, but I'm willing to bet they try to find several that were really abused to see how well they held up. The vehicle has new materials and designs that havn't really been "out there" before, and no data is really available as to how well it holds up.
"Lab" testing can never compare to what several thousand idiots do before they're fully awake in the morning
Diesel exhaust is a major factor in particulate matter pollution
That's the point. The TDI doesn't produce those particulates. It's one of the cleanest diesels ever made. Particulates are the black crap you see spewing from the stack of a semi. As for the diesel smell, I've never noticed it from a VW either. The VW TDI engine is different from any other diesel made. Diesel != Bad. Most of them just need some serious work.
Temkin
Plus, there is this fantastic, old, funky book on how to keep your VW running: "How to keep your Volkswagen alive: a manual of step-by-step procedures for the compleat idiot." by John Muir. Covers EVERYTHING. They later wrote a similar one for 70s Hondas (CVCC engine). Fun books to read even if you don't own one.
Air cooled rules!!!!
hahahah
no problem. Ripping off might have been harsh, if anything it suffered (where ever he/she got it from) from being an overplayed joke.
Sports cars are fun to drive. I can get close to 30mpg in my 1995 Z28. Granted, it's no porsche or BMW, but dear lord, does it put your head back in the seat if you're an unknowing passenger (as my girlfriend slaps me for stomping on the gas.)
I enjoy the SUV driving as well, but I really think zipping around in a low, zippy car is more fun!
Karnal
Use the Priceline gas card. I managed to knock about 10 cents/gallon off my gas bills. Of course, when I'm driving my '95 Jetta GL (which gets about 30mpg on the freeway) that may not seem like such a big deal.
However, for the jerks that have SUVs, this might help. But, so would not talking on their cellphone while driving into my lane (I've had that happen far too many times).
I like the idea of the Insight. I just wish it were a little bigger for big guys like myself.
--Bernie
My SUV makes me feel safe from people who can't drive and I use it all summer long when I go camping and fishing in the woods.... And if you think it looks cool you should get one... they're great, talk about comfortable!
YouTube & Google Video -> podcast http://castcluster.blogspot.com/
I will _not_ keep my judgments to myself. You are in the wrong. I see more reckless driving by SUV drivers than by any other group of drivers. There's an attitude of "my car is bigger than yours so get the f*ck out of the way" which is really the height of irresponsibility. This morning on my way to work, I saw some dumb jerk in his SUV shaving with one hand and talking on his cell phone with the other. I assume he was steering with his knees. Sure, he'll probably survive a crash. He'll probably cause it, too.
As for "killing the environment," your SUV gets between 8 and 15 miles to the gallon, I bet. Unless it's the Excursion, which gets between 6 and 10. Whereas my "featherweight deathbox" (with steel spaceframe, crumple zones, and front & side airbags) gets 30-40. What you don't seem to understand is that, regardless of your clean-burning emissions, petroleum is a finite resource. Once it's gone, there ain't gonna be any more.
Frankly, you sound pretty selfish.
as a prior owner of an 85 firebird v6 (have a 95 Z tho) How is this possible? One (myself) would think that the tranny wouldn't be able to keep up with the stress...
Maybe that was when they made only one transmission and you had to deal, tho..
Karnal
You are correct, you have to replace the tranny as well, as the TH200R4 that came behind most 2.8L automatic cars won't last behind a 350 V8 for very long. However, a TH700R4 or a TH350 which usually comes behind such a V8 will bolt right in as well. Most of the time if you are buying a used engine you can get a transmission as well. About the only other things you need to make things work you can get from either an over the counter kit (which usually includes headers for the application and new front struts/springs to handle the extra weight) or from junkyard parts.
In the case of MS, you are true - just because it sells well, the product is not necessarily good.
For Hondas, I beg to differ. Yes they are common, and yes, rice-boy racers make them look stupid and tacky, but they also happen to make damn good cars - damn good overall.
just my blog and pix
when people say SUVs are safer, period, that irks me, because for the most part, there isn't a difference, only if you're colliding into a smaller car. people have the impression they are invincible within one, and they have a good chance of just walking away from any collisoin, where they would die in a Civic..
and that's what i was trying to correct, that's only true if you're going to go ramming into Civics
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
I used to have the CVCC and the very book you mentioned, those were fantastic books! Even with minimal repair skills behind me, I was able to rebuild the Civic engine over spring break one year with no problem at all (beyond the usual herculean acts of strenth required to pry out old bearings).
The great thing about the book was also the many anecdotes sprinkled throughout, things like baking chicken on the exhast manifold and the (sucessful) attempt to get 70mpg out of a CVCC... Plus they had the clearest diagrams for parts I've ever seen in a car manual of any sort.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Ummm well people who drive sporty little cars are always wizzing by me on the highway... going 100 in a stupid ass sports car is not safe... They are dangerous in the snow and they look like "big rig" food...
YouTube & Google Video -> podcast http://castcluster.blogspot.com/
you should its pretty funny, sounds like your sight could use some of that...
Hark! It's the call of the wild American-made auto bigot!
Before anyone attempts to argue with this guy, know this-this species will never willingly acknowledge any kind of design/research/manufacturing innovation to any country (or automaker) but his chosen favorite.
All vehicles from (insert country here) or made by(insert manufacturer here) were designed by graduates of the Ron Popeil Mail-Away University of Machine Design, styled by a committee at the Soviet Bureau of Kitchen Appliance Aesthetics
or assembled at a trade school for hyperactive blind children armed with rivet guns.
Talking to these people is a waste of CO2-you could have a better conversation with a web-enabled Eliza program, and it would probably have better insight (pun intended) to the topic at hand.
Just remember, car bigots, like OS fetishists, come in all shapes and sizes, and are able to resist reality with equal vigor.
You Have Been Warned
"The sentient may perceive and love the universe, but the universe cannot perceive and love the sentient"
Didn't Lamborghini (sp?) make some hummers with the same engine they used in the Countache? (sp again).
:)
I bet those had more than 80 hp
--
Search first, ask questions later.
I was driving a Ford Windstar (ObTWIAVBP: minivan built on a Taurus frame) and thinking how large it was compared to my (oldstyle) Capri, when I was passed by an RV towing one. I mean, I'm used to seeing them towing Sidekicks and other little bitty cars. Geez. I guess everything's relative.
(Oh, and this is where the Ford fanatics say "Of course you want a spare car. You drive a Chevy.")
Slashdot's token middle-aged housewife
You misunderstand.
Of course a [streetable] motorcycle will beat a [streetable] car in the 1/4 mile. Certainly in 0-60, anyway.
My point, however, is that once you're up and running, the sport bikes can only barely keep up. Right around 140 is where the bike's wind resistance catches up with the power-to-weight ratio advantage.
This has been proven to be the case several times on the Mopac Expressway here in Austin.
the weight might bend or damage the frame of the car. I'm no car expert, but I don't think that would be a good thing. There's a weight limit for a reason... wish they'd say the reason.
Hehe, one time during a high school tennis match (yes I'm on the tennis team so blow me =P), me and 2 teammates decided it was a good time to get some McD's. Anyway, my asian friend volunteered to drive in his Jeep Cherokee, and after taking a vote, we decided to go off roading... on school property. We havekind of a 1 acre sized forest/grassland type of area between the actual road and our school, so we decided to go through there. Well, we drove through and whatnot, and to our unknowing, there was a large concrete ditch on our way from the forest to the main road. We hit that shit at like 40 miles per hour, and the car was completely fucked. Coolant spilled all over the place and he basically totalled everything feasable under the hood. He ended up towing the car back to his house (it was completely undrivable) and then he decided that he'd tell his insurance company that this all occured while he was parking. Well, he ended up getting investigated for insurance fraud (he ended up getting his insurance contract cancelled) due to the fact no body shop believed that much damage could occur during parking, and he ended up paying 8000 dollars to get it repaired. It was funny. Hehe.
:-)
In conclusion, asians are entertaining, and will do anything for the man just to please them. Take advantage of this at your own will.
I rented one (or one was rented for me, rather) once. Okay, it was a decent little car, if excessively cute, but thanks to that stupid ad campaign, everytime I went to the car I felt compelled to say "Hi!" to it.
Slashdot's token middle-aged housewife
and the reason why gas prices were so low just a little while ago is what, little green men?!
Gas taxes haven't changed in years, but the price at the refinery has. That's why the gas price is up! Let's face it, North Americans have had it pretty good in terms of gas prices for most of the last decade, and have gotten spoiled.
Pope
Freedom is Slavery! Ignorance is Strength! Monopolies offer Choice!
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
Think about what you just said for a moment.
You are comparing a technology that has been out for eons and tweaked until it can barely be tweaked anymore to something most definately 'new' by any standard.
The new technology is unrefined and tweaking has yet to begin.
The new technology STARTS where the old technology is leveling off.
You tell me, which will be around in the future?
Your arguement is "why bother to try new things, when we have this other thing over here that is still making us money?" Why are they selling stuff at a loss? Because they think that this kind of vehicle is essential to their future in the automotive industry. Anyone who buys the Insight is paying to test a new technology for Honda. I'd be willing to bet that Honda buys every single one of them back from the owners at some point and rips each one apart to see how it held up, and where they can make improvements. This is CHEAP R&D for them.
The automobile industry is currently trying to shift itself away from gasoline. California started it with their "insane" emissions requirements. The recent gas "crisis" (as some would call it) probably hasn't hurt their determination for this much either. Automotive makers know they're up a creek if gas supplies dry up (either through supplies running out, becoming prohibitively expensive, or Arab nations deciding to no longer ship fuel to the states). Hybrid vehicles are the first step in moving away from gas. The next wave will probably consist of automobiles driven only by electric motors with some form of combustion inside the car that starts up to charge the batteries. Moving further into pure speculation, I'll bet there is some sort of fuelcell combined with a technology to extract hydrogen from gasoline, mixing over to other liquid hydrocarbons (this is where I'd bet that fuel stations will start stocking multiple types of fuel like methanol, which is easier to split hydrogen from than normal gas). After that, I don't have a clue. =).
Damn, someone wanna give me $80,000 for one of these? :)
Q.
The Honda Insight...sounds like they've moved from cars to philosophy.
The Blaster Master Fighting for Truth, Justice, and Evil Pie since 1979
My major complaint with these efficient cars is that vertically enhanced folk can't get in them. The reviews always seem to be by short people. I'm 6'5" and would love a fuel effieicnt car. KK
i hope by 'unattractive device' he's referring to the windmill
good article, cool car for those with long commutes, but there is a technical inaccuracy in the article.. there are other 4-bangers on the market which have good torque curves other than the Insight...
like the Audi TT... torque peak at 1790 rpms
also, VTEC isn't as special as the article (and Honda) would have you believe, most manufacturers currently imploy variable valve timing in their cars (again, the TT does), they just don't hype the feature like Honda does (since Honda employed it to great effect early on, and does so to amazing effect in the S2000.)
anyway, little info,..
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
A SUV isn't a truck. It is as best a glofied minivan crossed with a tank, except the tank was built better.
An SUV is far more likely to KILL someone in an accident than another car is, unless said car is a '57 chevy or similar to it. In fact, in a multiple car pileup, the SUV is more likely to kill multiple people in multiple cars as the first car flips the SUV on top of the second one.
SUV's make sense if the owner has a family and needs to tow a boat. Small SUV's make sense if you like to tear up some backwoods area.
SUV's are a MENACE in the hands of a daily commuter. A Geo Metro can maneuver better than a Suburban, yet you see people driving those SUV things at 85 mph in a 55 weaving in and out of traffic, almost rolling every time it changes lanes.
People like SUV's because they're high off the ground and can see everything. SUV's are dangerous because they are high off the ground (tendancy to roll), and block the visibility of every other driver around it. In fact, I'd be willing to wager SUV's are rear ended on stop-goto60for30seconds-stop highway strips than any other vehicle because the drivers behind it can't see the brakelights of cars in front of it.
People like SUV's because they think that they're safer in them, causing drivers to drive carelessly without regards to those around them. Fact is SUV's are MORE dangerous than normal cars, and more lethal in car accidents to everyone involved.
People claim to like the power they feel while driving one. Spend that 40 grand on a car that doesn't weight 4 tons with the same engine and THEN you'll feel power. And odds are you are safer in one anyway. And will get better gas mileage.
*sigh* that retort meet your stringent standards?
Ooh fuck that bullshit. Your chances of survival in a 6000 lb truck versus a 2500 lb car is a hell of a lot better.
Most crash test are perform in a lab where they send varying vehicle into an "non-movable" cement barrior. Key word here is "non-movable". In these kinds of tests, yes, your Insight, Civic, or Golf is going to perform better because of inertia. But lets face the fucking facts. Most crashes do not involve collisions with fixed object. They are primarily vehicle to vehicle collision. Now, if you actually paid attention in Physics class you would know that the more inertia and object has the less likely that object will be changed from an encounter with another object of lesser inertia.
Example, lets take the 6000+ lb F150 that I drive, and drive it head on at 35 mph into a roughly 2000 lbs Civic. Sure it's going mess up the front of my vehicle pretty darn good. But that civic is going to be totally trash with the driver either dead or severely injured. In fact during the collision my vehicle will still be traveling forwards after the accident resulting in less body trauma to me, while civic is going to actually reverse direction at the moment of impact resulting in sever internal organ damage.
As far as "increasing the likelyhood of killing someone else." So be it. It's either them or me. Fuck the other person. I like my odds.
Yes it is the true quandry here. I really don't have an answer and I am not sure how I feel about the likely outcome. I do agree that non-renewable resources are shared. If it is decided to double the price of gas via taxation to invest in resources to work on this issue I am all for it. Honestly though the government will just squander the money away on yet another pork project. Where is the balance? There is no balance. The majority of my tax money appears to be spent on supporting people who don't like to work. I guess I get more bitter as I climb up the income scale. That is completely off topic though.
Thank you for a reasonable and insightful comment,
Chris
For myself I ride both sides of the fence. I commute via motorcycle, but when there is more than 2 people involved I use a Deisel Truck that's larger than a suburban. I strongly push that 98% of people could commute via motorcycle and it would seriously cut down on congestion, absolutely stop Cell phone drivers, and ease parking. OTOH I also feel that all mentally competent people should carry concealed weapons.
-- I need more coffee. It's Monday. There is no such thing as enough coffee on a Monday.
how Heroshima and nagasaki? ring a bell? chernoble? (excuse the spelling but I dont feel like looking it up) how safe do you think china and india have been in the development and testing of their weapons? I dont really think I need a cite to fill you in on the death and destruction nukes have caused... (note: I am not against nuclear weapons... I wish I had one..)
Moving closer to work would mean nearly a doubling of my cost of living (namely rent).. Why shouldn't I maintain the lifestyle I choose? I am not here to simply exist.. I am making the most of my life and doing what I want cause thats the fscking point of being alive!!! You can sit on your hands in the name of saving the planet, but it WILL happen with or without you... humans change the world around them.. we ARE nature we ARE evolution.
YouTube & Google Video -> podcast http://castcluster.blogspot.com/
Using a reasonable tool for a given task should be as self-evident in traffic as it is in programming.
Stephan
That weight limit is merely a manufacturer RECOMMENDATION.
Make sure you explain that to your insurance company after you get in an accident. They love to use it as an escape clause when possible.
Temkin
you have no idea which group of "you people" I belong to. You have stereotyped me
well, when you start reiterating the same tired lines the environmentalists have used for generations you pretty much drop yourself right into that stereotype... dont you see that? If you fit the mold you are part of the stereo type, and everything I have heard from you is nothing but the same old crap...
The manure and consequent smell and flies are much more worthy causes for complaint.
thats my point exactly! no matter what mode of trasportation I use you would find fault in it.. You have almost a ludite point of view.. my brand new SUV is just as fuel effiecent as the majority of cars in your local used car lot if not better... but everyone gets down on my SUV as 100 black smoke pouring cellicas drive by...
Sure you aren't describing yourself there? Seems to me that if you didn't have a difficult time thinking, you'd have better arguments in favor of your lifestyle choices and less guilt as implied by your heated reaction.
I was a bit enraged at your calling me "greedy" (which you still have yet to support) and I didnt feel your respose deserved too much thought as there was nothing new or interesting there.. your opinions are that of so many other sheep who fail to see or understand that humanity IS nature and humanity IS evolution and this planet is OURS. There are MANY other planets out there and as soon as we leave this one it will begin to recover all on it's own... Environmentalism is just an attempt to hold back progress which would solve all these lame environmental complaints in a decade anyway.
YouTube & Google Video -> podcast http://castcluster.blogspot.com/
okay, don't mean to troll. I'm just cranky these days with second rate mock news humor. I don't mean to take it out on you individualy.
Well, you can take a look at what came up on Yahoo's Google search.
Radio Shack stores in Canada used to sell these piezo tweeters under their name. In MCM Electronics' catalog 42, they're on page 663. I used several of the Motorola KSN1177A dual horn tweeters on each side of the truck. $14.95 each. I threw together some brackets with a little bit of sheet steel and bolted them to the underside of the truck, just sticking out below the rocker panels.
High frequency sound is very directional, so you'll want to have a friend pull his car alongside yours at the same distance you'd be from an offensive Honda product, turn on the sound (quietly), and aim the tweeters until your friend reports that the sound is at its loudest. Do this for both sides, and adjust your brackets accordingly.
Now, these things are officially rated at about 100W RMS each. That's a lie. After playing with their smaller siblings a couple of times, I got the feeling that they were really tough. My record is hooking a piezo tweeter up to a bridged Crown MT2400 amplifier, and then pegging it. The MT2400, bridged, will drive over 2kW into 4 ohms, and a piezoelectric tweeter's impedance drops as the frequency increases... I think it's safe to say that the tweeter survived at least 1500W. Not for long, mind you, but it was very impressive.
I have run biamplified stacks in concerts using nothing but Motorola piezos for my high end, driving each tweeter with 500W RMS without any issues. Filling a 50,000 seat stadium like Toronto's SkyDome with these has always been painfully easy.
A couple of things. First off, piezo tweeters don't need crossovers. Their impedance is very high below their operating frequencies. If you're retrofitting an existing cabinet, make sure that you hook them up before the inductor that filters the high end from your bass driver. And secondly, they're really loud and they're really tough, but they're not really high fidelity. Don't expect cymbals and stuff to sound as clean as they do with a good dome or cone tweeter (my faves for fidelity being Celestion or older Acoustic Research stuff). But the piezos are every bit as good as a cast aluminum horn with a dynamic driver behind it.
In short, they're dirt cheap, readily available, tough as nails, loud as hell and sound reasonably good. And they carry the Motorola name. They're amazing.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
I didn't doubt your top speed claims, just the 133MPH ones.
If you're comparing it to the mid 1970's just-strangled-by-emmissions cars, then a box turtle with flames painted on it would have great pick up.
I'm sorry but "great pick-up" and 0-60 in 10.6 seconds are contradictions for any car built in the last decade or so. (Car&Driver) It can keep up with traffic, it has adequate power to pass, but NOT great pick-up.
It's near the bottom of the econo-box category in acceleration (at least here in the States.) You don't need to compare it to sports cars.
This sentence no verb.
Thanks, but I can't really claim all the credit for this one... The Sex Pistols were a helpful inspiration.
I was sitting at the corner of Bay and King Streets in the heart of downtown Toronto's financial district. I was wearing a shirt and tie and driving my lovely old 1983 Dodge Ram, which my friends called either "Patches" (for the rough, unground weld marks from rust repairs) or "The Brick" (for its rectangular shape, almost free of curves, and its red primer paintjob). It was truly the ultimate urban warrior: someone hits you, and you just laugh at the poor fool.
Driving that truck was really neat: people would assume that you were a roofer or something, until they looked in and saw a young guy with a white shirt and silk tie. And then they'd stare at me, looking really confused. Anyway, I liked the truck, it suited me, and it was really practical.
So, what should pull up beside me but a Suzuki Swift with tinted windows, one windshield wiper in the center and the little fake rubber ducky antenna on the back. I had my windows up (it was a hot summer day, and my '83 Ram's air conditioning worked like a million bucks), and I could still hear this guy's stereo just cranked.
So, I reached over to the Alpine CD player I'd put in there a couple of months before, and flipped in a Sex Pistols CD. I skipped up to "Anarchy in the UK", and turned up the volume until the 6x9s in the doors didn't sound like they'd take it anymore.
The Swift, who didn't appear to have AC since his windows were down, didn't fare very well as the big old truck beside him lowered its windows. And, as the lines "I am an anarchist / I am the anti-Christ" played to his shocked ears and drowned out some Eminem crap, I came up with the idea for the Sibilance Projectors. (With apologies to Traynor, who made a tweeter bin with the same name back in the 1970s.)
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Better nobody's wife and children. Which is far more likely if both families are driving a reasonable passenger car than if both are driving SUVs.
Of course, your economic argument does make me happy, because you have to fill your tank up twice a day, whereas I fill mine once a month or so. Don't come crying to me when you're spending 80% of your paycheck to keep your gas-guzzler on the road.
You say that like it's a bad thing. I'd pay extra to have that. On other people's cars, anyway.
Slashdot's token middle-aged housewife
And thank you for letting me try to teach.
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
The Insight uses the IMA motor rather than a conventional starter to start the engine. It doesn't take "a few seconds" to crank the engine - it's virtually instantaneous. I had the same concerns you did until I tried it.
Honda and Toyota both did studies on prototypes before deciding to cycle the motor whenever you come to a full stop. The Insight only shuts down if you pop the transmission into neutral. I'm not sure how Toyota determines when to shut down the engine since it has an automatic...
BTW, if you don't like the engine shutting off, just switch the AC out of "ECON" mode. The engine will keep running.
Thank you. I just went and changed that now. Have a nice day, Andrew.
Sweet! Thanks.
Consumer Reports also got slower 0-60 times for the 2000 Eclipse (using a manual) than can be achieved using THE AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION.
Consumer Reports is hardly what I would consider an authoritative source.
Personally, I don't really "get" everyone screaming for 4 doors.
Okay, great, this is a vehicle that you can't take your kids along for the ride. But... how many people yelling about this have kids? I know of many single people who bitch about this, and that baffles me.
Of course, I already "live" with a 2-passenger vehicle as my sole means of transportation (though it certainly doesn't get 70mpg), so I guess I'm just one of those statistical anomalies.
Unless, of course, it's not really the statistics of needing more than 2 passengers in the car and more about the american "requirement" for large vehicles. Which, given that 90% of the SUVs on the road have 1 person in them, sounds much more likely to me...
Moof!
Here in the UK petrol prices are the highest in the world. And nobody dreves any less after every increase (The last governmanet linked fule tax to inflation). Stupid looking cars will never sell no matter how much cheaper they are to run than petrol cars. The majority of car buyers buy a car because of image not because of their consumption figures
No but, yeah but, no but...
Actually, I think you're misinterpreting the other posts...
No one said "The Insight is crap & should be ditched in favor of TDI". To paraphrase what they did say: "The Insight looks impressive, but when you consider the alternatives already on the market, it looks much less so". Does that mean that Honda should stop all future work on Electric cars? Of course not. Does that mean that no one should buy an Insight? No. All it means is be sure to check out the TDI before you invest in an Insight. One, two, five years from now, that statement probably wqon't apply. But since we're not talking about five years from now, we're talking about now, the statement DOES apply & is HIGHLY relevant.
And, no, Honda won't buy them all back from the owners... Not only is such a thing pointless (that sort of R&D is done BEFORE a product is released), but when was the last time you heard of a manufacturer doing such a thing? Admittedly that doesn't mean that it couldn't happen in the future, but I find it a highly unlikely prospect.
I won't argue that some people _do_ need a truck (folks in the upper midwest where there's a foot of snow on the ground 9 mos. out of the year, for example) but where I live (Atlanta) there is NO NEED for ANYONE to drive an SUV. And yet there are more of them on the road every day down here. 40-50% of the cars in my office parking lot right now are SUVs.
2) The SUV drivers (around here at least) are the most irresponsible drivers on the road. There seems to be an idea that, since their cars are bigger than everyone else's, they should have the right-of-way in every situation. Also, from my (admittedly informal) observations, SUV drivers seem far more likely to be talking on their cellular phones, eating, etc. while driving. One asshole I saw on the way in today was presumably steering with his knees while he ran his electric razor with one hand and chatted on his phone with the other. Doing 30 MPH in rush hour traffic on Peachtree Street.
3) SUVs also reduce visibility for other vehicles, and the more of them there are, the harder it is to see. When I'm sitting in traffic behind an SUV with one on either side of me, I can't see a damn thing.
4) Despite the ignorant "we'll have gas forever" propaganda, WE WON'T. And sure, individual SUVs use much less fuel than planes. Of course, an individual murder kills far fewer people than a war. Doesn't mean both things shouldn't be eliminated.
Except bigger computers do not put everybody else's life at risk in the road.
Idiot.
Are you adequate?
Actually, the problem usually isn't liability insurance. The problem is usually theft.
Slashdot's token middle-aged housewife
When running the car you won't be using the battery. While the engine is running the alternator is used to power electrical devices such as the radio, ac, lcd's, etc. The alternator is powered by the combustion of the engine, and thus no matter how much power the camera uses, you it won't be coming from the camera.
btw, does anybody know about how much the cameras and lcds would cost total?
"I don't like this deep shit about crazy crap"
Just out of curiosity.... what can one expect the Insight (or any other vehicle) to do if you exceed its weight limit? Refuse to go up hills? Damage the engine or transmission? Call up Honda, Inc. on your car phone and report you?
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
Won't be coming from the battery, not camera, sorry.
"I don't like this deep shit about crazy crap"
Ford and GMC have, however, managed to produce engines which actually HAVE power and torque without having to go that high.
Yes, they've produced some of the most fuel-inefficient vehicles on the market today. The Dodge Durango is the 2nd worst gas guzzler that's legal to own in Canada.
Wah!
Heh...a stock Hummer weighs about 10,000 lbs. Thats almost 3 times what a Jeep weighs. Get a Jeep.
Except that some scientists are starting to view gasoline as a renewable resource - something that will never run out in humankind's lifetime (see this wired article).
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Thankfully, economics suggests a limited number of large SUV's on the road. So, we don't need to worry about everyone even owning a regular SUV, much less a "super SUV."
[ home ]
However, fuel efficiency does have something to do with the Durango having a large displacement, long travel engine. When comparing two cars, one with a high-displacement engine and one with high RPMs, the car with the large displacement engine will have a fuel economy hit from square one because it's lugging around the enormous engine block! So there. ;) I shouldn't have talked out of my ass earlier.
My original post was pointing out that Honda's engineering has improved since the 1973 CVCC car. The fact that they can build a normally aspirated production car that makes 240 horses from 2 litres of displacement seems to me to be an engineering feat.
In my mind, any carmaker can make a powerful engine. Just make it bigger! There's no replacement for displacement. It takes engineering and manufacturing skill to get power-to-weight. And that's admirable, just as a compact bit of code that replaces bloated cruft is admirable.
Wah!
- Hiroshima: A military action. A deliberate attack on a city, not a test. Death toll, under 100K.
- Nagasaki: See Hiroshima.
- Chernobyl: An explosion and fire at a reactor designed to produce weapons-grade plutonium along with electric power, brought on by irresponsible control technicians who defeated the reactor safety systems. Aggravated in the extreme by the lack of a containment building around the reactor. Arguably a "test", if you consider fucking around in direct violation of the rules of operation to be a test. Death toll: Estimates are up to 800,000 cancers in Europe over the next 20 years, but cancer is increasingly curable.
I still want to know who these millions of dead are, and what tests killed them. Why shouldn't you take responsibility for the consequences of your choices, while you're at it? It's called "being a grown-up".Your rent is another issue. You mentioned driving 70 miles to work (one way?). If you're getting 14 MPG and pay $1.40/gallon, that's $14/day for gas. Cost of operating a vehicle is several times the fuel cost, but for you I'll assume it's only twice. That makes $28/day operating cost. If you work 20 days a month, that's $560/month. If you moved 20 miles from work, that's 100 miles/day off your commute and $20/day in your pocket. You could pay an additional $400/month in rent with that, be financially even, and have another hour or even two hours a day to yourself.
Know something? You're really funny. And that's true whether you're joking or serious.
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
That's fine, if everybody who owns an SUV does that. How many are owned by soccer moms who run to the car wash after they drive their monster SUV down a dirty street, and wouldn't be caught dead off-road? You personally may be using it for something other than town crusing, but as the discussion here points out, probably 75% of the SUVs purchased will never be used to their capacity. Thus,all the wasted gas on trips to the mall, and the bogus comparisons to big rigs.
...phil
...phil
"For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3."
"Huge. Big motor."
Uhhh... That's because it's a truck.
"kills anyone in it's way."
Unlike other cars, right?
Good retort, though, really!
-thomas
"And like that
If you need to carry a soccer team, drive a van. Last 3 SUVs I've ridden in could hold 5 people, same as my compact Saturn.
Except, of course, that the weight limit simply puts up a light on the dash that you're "overweight".
That insult aside, the car will still drive - but isn't nearly as snappy.
That weight limit is merely a manufacturer RECOMMENDATION. Of course if you load up 1000lbs on the roof or somesuch and snap the car in two, you'll be on your own for repairs.
Moof!
Just as I thought: SUV drivers are selfish, paranoid assholes.
Uh, yeah. Ooookay.
Going 70 in the snow in a SUV is stupid. Want to know how many SUVs I see doing that on an average day in the winter?
Moof!
I'll race you and your corona any day (with either car). The Gran Fury has a certified top speed of 120 miles per hour d00d.
*sigh*
you really should check out your facts before spouting off. really, canyonero has nothing to do with the simpsons...
Uh, I suggest you read the most recent issue of Car & Driver.
You'll find a report about 3 customized cars running around a race track. Corvette, Mustang, and... gee... an Integra.
Somehow that car with "half it's cylinders missing" manages to come within a few seconds of BEATING your "high performance sports car".
By the way, I grew up in Detroit. I've worked on big old detroit iron. I've also had the joy of owning one. Watching it break down constantly, trying to nickle and dime me to death.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Moof!
Why? Maybe I give a shit about my friends, relatives and everyone else who has to breathe the evil shit coming out the back of an SUV?
I DO care about myself, but I'd rather die in an accident with a cell-phone using idiot than live to be 70 and die of lung cancer from the unbreathable air...
On the other hand, if as a species we could see more than 10 seconds into the future, we could solve BOTH issues.
I swear, humans are useless, I include myself in that. I just hope we kill ourselves soon so life can get back to evolving something worthwhile.
-- IANAEG - I am not an elder god.
Yeah I know, I would be perfectly happy to find median new car price figures, but no one seems to be as concerned with that (not enough people taking proper statistics classes I guess.) Your malibu took a pretty big drop depreciation wise, making it a much more affordable car.
Hey! We don't want his kind, either. Well, maybe they do in Texas...
I meant to say "a trade-off between performance and efficiency", not technology. In Honda's case (as the cars you mentioned, and in particular the NSX), performance and technology go hand in hand. However, they have a certain knack (call it VTEC?) for combining fun, haul-ass performance with good fuel effeciency. I like that a lot.
:) 3) Fuel is 1/3 to 1/4 the price. But i'm sure you know all that already.
:).
Sure, American car manufacturers' engines don't achieve the same BHP/litre efficiency as most Euro and Japanese makers' engines do, but over here we tend to tune motors for low-end torque, not HP. My del Sol 1.6 SOHC motor (currently) puts out 125hp and 106lb/ft torque. Were this motor in an American car (doubtful, considering most US manufacturers start at 2.0L), you'd find those numbers much closer to each other, if a bit lower - more like 110/110. This is because 1)We all drive automatics (yech) which prefer torque. 2) We don't drive as quickly
As for performance, well, performance cars come from everywhere (particularly Germany and Japan, but the UK as well), but Team Oreca stomped this year at Le Mans with good ol' American Vipers. Say what you will, sometimes there's no substitute for cubic inches
just my blog and pix
That's not even remotely true.
I'll fully admit that lots of foreign manufacturers have come up with great ideas and innovations. Mazda, for bravely soldiering on with the rotary, a disaster in the 1970s, but excellent by the time the RX-7 was discontinued. Honda for bringing variable valve timing to the masses. The Germans for working hard to make cars more modular and more easy to recycle.
In fact, I'll go so far as to say that the Japanese, in the 1960s, pioneered vacuum-molding of aluminum. They made it work. And without them, the complex cylinder head castings of today's cars wouldn't be possible.
My beef is about the plethora of idiots who seem to think that an automatic-transmission, 4-cylinder Honda Civic loaded down with hundreds of pounds of stereo equipment and cheesy stickers is a high performance car capable of taking on anything with a V8 in a stoplight confrontation. It's so much fun to see one of these pulling up alongside a dead-stock and poorly maintained Mustang 5.0, for the look of shock on the Honda driver's face as the Mustang easily pulls past him is just classical.
Be reminded that a stoplight confrontation is essentially drag racing. And for drag racing, rear wheel drive, light vehicle weight and gobs of displacement will always win.
Sad to see that someone who infers some level of education and even a basic automotive knowledge wouldn't understand this.
I've rebuilt dozens of car engines, both for daily drivers and for performance vehicles. I've driven CASCAR street stock. And I cut a consistant 0.554 reaction time at time trials at the local drag strip.
I feel fully qualified to dismiss Honda and other Japanese cars as the overdone four-wheeled mopeds that they are.
And finally, when I was towing my old Fiero up to a friend's place, as I was driving down the freeway with the Fiero attached to my truck with a tow-bar, I had no less than 4 different "rice rockets" pull alongside the Fiero and attempt to race it.
Even towing a 2,800lb Pontiac Fiero, my 1976 Dodge Ram with a 400CID (6.6L) V8 was more than happy to play with them.
Judging from your e-mail address, it looks like you must be feeling a little bit of jealousy. I mean, what's a stoplight confrontation in the former Soviet Union like? A Trabant versus a Lada? Geez, I could walk faster.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Unless, of course, you're actually on the receiving end of an accident. Then, of course, they're much MORE unsafe than other vehicles.
This is, of course, because they only exist because of a loophole in safety laws that has these daily drivers being ruled as trucks, despite that they rarely, if ever, see use as a commercial vehicle.
Of course, safety comes in all forms. If you total my vehicle with your SUV and DON'T kill me... you'll be the fatality, though the actual cause of your death will be debatable.
Moof!
>But when you can buy a Neon
..and spend the other 10 grand on repairs.
just my blog and pix
The article talks mostly about low energy consumption, there are no comparison of pollution...
The Peugeot 607 has an active filter to filter the exhaust particles, "self-cleaning" so you don't have to change it.
Now the 607 is a new "luxury" car, so it remains to be seen if its promises will be fulfilled and if they can also add this filter to the low end cars.
What you fail to realise is that the active safety (i.e. avoidance capabilities) of even the best SUV/Soft Roaders is _way_ below that of even some of the poorer handling cars. You are far more likely to have an accident in the first place. Braking distances are substantially longer, with or without ABS. Due to their high centre of gravity, sudden braking or steering inputs can unsettle the vehicle enough to cause you to lose control, or the vehicle to roll. Your margin ofr error is greatly reduced.
Plus, if you hit a stationary object, or larger object (real truck), you stand a great chance of suffering serious injury or death.
Their safety is largely psychological.
For the Neon which gets 35 mpb, you'll pay about $10,000. ((233,333/35)*1.5)
Correct? If so, then that's only a $5000 difference. In that case, you'd need twice as many miles, 466,666, to break even. Most cars are going to have trouble making it that far. If we can expect the car to last 100,000 miles, then we would not want to pay more than $2,142.86 more for the 70 mpg car over the 35 mpg car at $1.50 per gallon.
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Thanks for the reply. Because I have a sunroof that tilts up, and goes over the roof, I neglected to consider how other sunroofs actually slide into the roof itself.
I suppose sunroofs with solar cells would be forced to go up and over. A bit of a limiting factor, but being modular is probably more important...
I'm not trying to justify the entire planet owning SUVs.. I have one and I wouldn't own anything else... unless it flew...
You really think it's 75%? wow.. I don't know how many soccer moms buy SUVs, or how many of them are used to there capacity... but my buddy's porche probably can do 160MPH or better... is that a waste too? he'll probably NEVER go that fast... but having an SUV could save that Soccer Mom's life if she goes off the road or gets stuck in a snow storm... There are trade offs to everything in life... what kinda car you drive is very trivial...
YouTube & Google Video -> podcast http://castcluster.blogspot.com/
>This engine is quiter than any other 4cylinder engine that I've ever driven
Surely you mean "quieter than any other 4 cyl diesel engine you've driven"
My old '85 Nissan Sentra Diesel used to rattle windows like a big block without the power.
just my blog and pix
That's precisely right. As long as I have to share the roads with idiots in Integras that are coated with silly stickers, the driver on the cellphone while his stereo pumps bass so loudly that the coins on my truck's dashboard are bouncing to his beat, you better bet your ass that I'll be driving the biggest and heaviest brick I can possibly get my hands on.
Just one question: How can you talk on the cellphone with the stereo so loud that quarters are getting air in adjacent vehicles? I suspect they're just poseurs, they can't actually afford the cellular service, but think that it's an important status symbol.
I've actually put a rather nice stereo into my truck. In a former career, I was a professional audio and video technician. I've done sound for Metallica, Garth Brooks and the Three Tenors. I hit the drawing board and crunched some numbers. Then, I stuck a couple of professional EV 10" bass drivers into the space between my seat and the back of my cab. With a small amplifier I designed and threw together, they can easily kill my battery... :)
I've also put a whole shitload of Motorola piezoelectric tweeters ($7 each, tough as nails) on the underside of the truck, with a switch to turn them on and off. The switch, appropriately enough, is labelled "Sibiliance Projector" and has a setting for left and right.
When I pull up beside one of these idiots who has the stereo pumped with the latest (c)rap or dance tune, I stick in my Ozzy Osbourne CD, flip the sibilance projector to his side of my truck, and pump it. I get 122dB @ 8kHz at 1 meter from the truck. 200 watts, real watts, not car stereo watts, RMS. Earbleed territory. That'll fix 'em.
Either way, it's comforting to be able to back over them if I need to.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Speaking as one who feels comfortable with the statement that I probably know more about cars than 98.9% of my fellow Slashdotters, I'm unclear as to how you can justify calling a car with half its cylinders missing and the engine pointing a funny way in the engine bay a "high performance car".
Last time I checked, four cylinders were suitable for getting the kids to the dentist, not for getting to the traps at the end of the strip first.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Uh. Okay, I'll bite.
How are those "stupid little sports cars" (as opposed to stupid big sports cars, like the corvette) as "bad" as SUVs?
They are more fuel efficient.
They don't decapitate others when they get into an accident.
They don't roll over when the drunk rear-seat occupants take the "rock the car" joke too far.
Moof!
Yep, the LM400 I think. Built for the desert sheiks. The engine was detuned a bit, and it too had some huge petrol/gas tanks. Top speed was around 200km/h (120mph)
Right!
If you want a high performance car, you drive a Viper, a Falcon or a Barracuda.
You don't drive something that you could feed to a Viper, Falcon or Barracuda.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Hey, got a link to those tweets you're talking about... couldn't find anything on Motorola's site...
Technically those aren't Hummers though, they were building those before HUMVEEs (or is that HMMV? I forget) were introduced.
I don't know if they modified some Humvees recently, but 10+ years ago they were building LM's and they were entirely a Lamboghini creation.
Though you would have to be a sheik to buy one. Yikes!
Moof!
No, John Muir doesn't cover *everything*, but all of the basics, and that book was an essential first step to getting this newbie under the valve covers.
.004, as VW originally intended, not .006 - just make sure they're adjusted more often). He doesn't tell you how to adjust or fix your automatic choke, because he hates them. He tells you how to disable it. He hates vacuum advance distributors, but neglects to mention that mechanical advance distributors really don't belong on a stock 1600cc engine that isn't otherwise hotrodded; most offer too much advance, unless you're lucky enough to find an 010 or 019, and know how to remove one of the springs.
But later, I've found that Muir was very opinionated about some things, and just plain wrong about some things (valve clearance, for instance, ought to be
I've found that there are many, many other good books, including the Big Blue Bently, which though it covers through 1962, there's a lot of critical info in that book that is missed in the later shop manuals.
Best of all, I've learned so much about working on these engines, that I'm thinking of cashing in some stock options, and buying a vintage Porsche 356, very similar suspension and engine design. In fact, made in the very same factory as some of the beetles, (and Karmann Ghias), and originally designed by the same man.
if it ain't broke, then fix it 'till it is!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Uh, I think he was commenting on the average SUV drivers false sense of security, which causes them to do all kinds of unsafe things.
Moof!
The car is a version 1.0. As version 1.0, it's going to be expensive and non-ideal. Refinements happen.
My beef is both. Are cars for fun okay? Sure.. but not if they are harmful. Destruction of the environment for *FUN* is not acceptable.
Should your jetski be out on the lake? Actually.. NO.. IT SHOULDN'T.. do you know how much oil and crap it dumps in the lake? Same for many boats.
Quality of life? Quality of life is going steadiloy donwhill as we destroy the world around us. Am I an environmentalist nutcase? Certainly not... but think about it for a minute.
My quality of life allows me to go out and buy a brand new BMW tomorrow if I want. Do I? No. I don't. Because I don't need a car. Is driving fun? yes. Do I like it? yes. But.. it's HARMFUL.
Electric power plants are extremely filthy beasts.
The polution of a power plant is concentrated in one spot, where it can be dealt with. the polution of cars is spread out over almost the entire planet. When you think of it, this is analogous to the client / server model with fat clients vs. thin clients. Polution in one place is easier to clean-up than polution all over the place. IANA Whatever It Takes To Engineer And Maintain A Power Plant but can't you just put a catalysor (?) on the exhaust fume pipes of a gas or oil based power plant?
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"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a sick mind." (Terry Pratchett)
1) You aren't the only one who drives an SUV. If you were, I wouldn't be complaining. But the fact is, you and about a zillion other people are driving them. Which means that a LOT of gasoline is being wasted EVERY YEAR so you can look good commuting 3 miles to work in your frigging tank, which means that I pay more for gasoline.
I drive 70 miles to work, in Maine... so in the winter there is snow... lots of snow... I am not trying to justify EVERYONE having an SUV... but if you want to get a class A lisence and drive an 18 wheeler to work every day, I would support your decision to do that regaurdless of your reasons. Many people like to be higher off the road, or the feel safer or maybe the do just think they look good... why does it matter? If you want to drive a little rice burner I dont get down on you for not buying american or the type of labor your XX vehicle used to be built... you bought the car you wanted...
2) The SUV drivers (around here at least) are the most irresponsible drivers on the road.
I'd bet my left arm that you just notice them more because of this deep seated hatred you have.. I see people in BMW's and Porches and Honda Civics driving like complete fools every day... SUV's in my experience are more likely to be going the speed limit and are more likely to NOT be tailgating some big rig that cant see them...
3) SUVs also reduce visibility for other vehicles, and the more of them there are, the harder it is to see. When I'm sitting in traffic behind an SUV with one on either side of me, I can't see a damn thing.
cant help you on this one.. I am on my 4th SUV so I've never had that problem... BIG trucks are often in my way but I am just patient and drive causiously.. what can you do? do you advocate everyone driving the same damn thing? how bad would that suck?
4) Despite the ignorant "we'll have gas forever" propaganda, WE WON'T. And sure, individual SUVs use much less fuel than planes. Of course, an individual murder kills far fewer people than a war. Doesn't mean both things shouldn't be eliminated.
You actually believe we should eliminate SUVs? wow.. I very rarely favor the elimination of any product... market forces eliminate enough stuff with out more government bullshit.. I favor the elimination of gas.. it's messy, expensive, limited, stinky (although I kinda like the smell...), poluting.. etc... but what do you think the fastest path to getting out of our gas powered rut is? using all the damn gas up!! I think it would be GREAT! what if all the gas was gone tomorrow? how long before we had a replacement? I bet it wouldnt even take a month...
YouTube & Google Video -> podcast http://castcluster.blogspot.com/
You can see the HP by the colors on the letters of the TDI (At least on Audi, which I know most of). No red letter = 90 HP, The "I" of TDI is red = 110 HP and The "DI" of TDI = 115 HP
Does the author of the ars acticle actually knows what for a beast he got as a car ;-) I woudn't even try to race him with my Audi TT (225HP)...oh, and that one really sucks on fuel usage :-(((
-> Lives in Europe and fuel is EXPENSIVE!
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
See, the beauty of this is that if you key my Dodge Ram, it'll probably do more damage to your key than it will to my truck.
Further, you're well ahead to be warned that the sorts of people who generally drive 24-year-old pickup trucks aren't the sorts of people you'd want to have angry with you, lest you actually do try this.
Most of us have guns. Some of us are members of the Hells Angels. And I'm a rare exception: I keep an old camshaft in my truck, in case anyone needs to have an attitude adjustment.
Only the strong survive.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Ummm,
Having once seen an article about a windmill driven boat, I think you miss a point here. This boat was able to sail right into the wind. The windmill was mechanically attached to the screw. It worked because of the differences in density between water and air. (Unfortunatly I read it years ago, so no link available.)
First, the cars batteries are charged by wind power when the car is standing still and a car stands still approximately 95% of its life. The windmill is removed while driving.
Second, and this will defy your point, when using this as a main source while driving, the car won't be pushed backwards by the wind because of the brakes. Only when the wind produced enough electrical energy the car can move forward against the wind, and against the drag. The drag on the ground is much bigger than the drag by the wind, especially when you help the weels to create more backward drag.
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"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a sick mind." (Terry Pratchett)
Bonnet (or hood) mounted rear-view mirrors mean that you don't have to take your eyes off the road ahead very much to see behind you. You also don't alter the focus range of your eyes, so you can flick from one to the other quicker than with the more recent door mounted ones.
dave
When you use a shared resource, you often impinge on others. Several shared resources are used by cars, most importantly, roads and clean air. What you worship or what you read does not affect shared resources, and generally does not impinge on others.
To achieve optimum levels, shared resources need to either be monotized (for example, global warming could be compensated for by implementing a carbon tax on fuels) or privatized. You can use free market approaches still, or try to come up with a reasonable command-and-control solution.
I would like to know how an SUV would help a soccer mom in the snow. Most people that I see driving an SUV don't know how to drive on dry pavement. Just because you have a lot of weight and 4-wheel drive doesn't mean that you can do anything you want on snow. And that is why I take my front-wheel drive car with ABS and traction control and drive around all the soccer moms that are in the ditch.
I have great faith in fools - self confidence my friends call it. - Edgar Allan Poe
When I pull up beside one of these idiots who has the stereo pumped with the latest (c)rap or dance tune, I stick in my Ozzy Osbourne CD, flip the sibilance projector to his side of my truck, and pump it. I get 122dB @ 8kHz at 1 meter from the truck. 200 watts, real watts, not car stereo watts, RMS. Earbleed territory. That'll fix 'em.
:)
I gotta meet you dude... you got the best ideas I have ever heard!!
YouTube & Google Video -> podcast http://castcluster.blogspot.com/
Yea, but something about them just says "I have balls!" ;)
Hmm, something about them says "I have a very small penis."
Life sucks but death doesn't put out at all....
Not a jeep, get a Landrover.
Get the SWB version and retrofit a Rangerover V8 into it.
Heh, heh.
dave "and you'll need a winch, too"
I would like to know how an SUV would help a soccer mom in the snow. Most people that I see driving an SUV don?t know how to drive on dry pavement. Just because you have a lot of weight and 4-wheel drive doesn?t mean that you can do anything you want on snow. And that is why I take my front-wheel drive car with ABS and traction control and drive around all the soccer moms that are in the ditch.
The fact they are female is another problem to overcome altogether... probably the ones you saw in the ditch would have been dead without the SUV... I just know I dont even care if its sunny or the Ice Storm of 98.. I just go where I have to go... If I had to drive my GF's shitty ass honda accord, I wouldnt be going ANYWHERE... why risk it? If you drive a little car in the snow and ice you take your life in your hands everytime... I slid through an intersection could kill you pretty easy... I've never skidded before and I live in Maine, thats all the proof I need...
YouTube & Google Video -> podcast http://castcluster.blogspot.com/
Well, it sounds like you might have a legitimate need to use a truck. And if that's the case, use it, with my blessings. What bugs me are the yuppie assholes who drive SUV's 'cause they're cool. There's a distinction between people who use SUVs as _utility_ vehicles and those who use them as _luxury_ vehicles. And, by the way, I drive a Saturn, built in Tennessee which (last time I checked) is still part of the US. Also, a further point of clarification: I don't drive the car I wanted, I drive the car I can afford. If I could, I'd drive a Volvo to protect me from the jerks in SUVs. Since I can't, I bought the safest, most fuel-efficient car I could find.
I'd bet my left arm that you just notice them more because of this deep seated hatred you have.. I see people in BMW's and Porches and Honda Civics driving like complete fools every day... SUV's in my experience are more likely to be going the speed limit and are more likely to NOT be tailgating some big rig that cant see them
Well, it would appear that your experience and mine differ. Also, I'm much less worried when a Civic drivier is driving like an idiot--I will survive a crash with a Civic. When an SUV driver is driving dumb, I have to worry about his bumper coming through my windshield.
You actually believe we should eliminate SUVs?
No. I didn't say that. I said we should eliminate war and murder. I do think some sort of regulation on SUVs (and other trucks--double- and triple-trailer big rigs are really dangerous, as well) is in order, though. Maybe a fuel-efficiency tax: the fewer miles-per-gallon you get, the more the gas costs. An incentive for people to buy more efficient cars. Then those who use their SUVs for work (such as yourself) could get a big deduction come April, whereas those who see them as a luxury item would pay the premium rate.
Of course, it'd never work. The rich assholes have better accountants than I do.
Yeah, m00se can be very nasty.
A m00se bit my sister 0nce...
dave "sorry"
I never laugh so hard as when seeing Americans complain about gas prices. I pay 85p (roughly $1.30) per LITRE of unleaded. That's £3.88, or about $6.20 a gallon.
:( ), but I doubt it...
It always astounds me to see you guys (my gf does this) driving around for another gas station because $1.40 is outrageous dammit. Of course, it's possible that your prices have tripled since last september (when I was last there
"don't fall into the fallacy of believing that Perl can solve social problems. Maybe Perl 6 can, but that's a ways off"
Well.
:-)
I got stuck in traffic for 2 hours today. 2 hours of my life wasted by a lorry bursting into flames and shedding a load of pigs on to the motorway which caused the police to close the motorway (behind me) while they tried to round them up and divert the traffic down an A road.
Soo. I've decided that I'm going to buy a motorcycle. No more waiting in traffic. 80Mpg fuel efficiency and when I get a larger bike I'll be able to do 0-60 in 3.5 seconds with a top speed of 180mph...
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Maybe you should drive a modern (Euro) diesel. Most have good off-the-line acceleration, excellent in gear acceleration, and have more than respectable top speeds (a friend at work regularly does 200kmh plus in his diesel Alfa). Hell, the new diesel Merc is capable of 250km/h. All that, and good economy!
The 0-whatever time is not so significant. What is important is the 50-70, 50-90, 90-120 etc times. This is what is important to you on the road. The A4 has very good in gear acceleration. This is where all the modern European TDs are very good (FIAT/Citroen/Renault/Peugeot/VW/Audi/Merc/etc.) Common rail diesels are quick, as well as being very economical.
I guess we just have to agree to disagree.. I think people should drive what they want as long as they do it safely... I have just as little respect for an ass in a fiestiva as I do for an ass in an excursion..
,if all the gas was gone tomorrow, by august 19th we'd have a new (and probably better) solution for making our cars go... so higher prices will only draw out the problem...
As for the extra gas tax.. blech.. I dont think there should be taxes on ANY purchase of anything anywhere in the US.. no luxury tax, snack tax, cig tax, gas tax, sales tax, licensing fees, stamp tax, tea tax.. whatever.. I should pay like %10 of my income at the end of the year and that should be PLENTY to run an incredible government off of.. but thats another issue I guess... but like I said before
YouTube & Google Video -> podcast http://castcluster.blogspot.com/
Now let's say EVERYONE has an SUV. Should I buy a Festiva or an SUV? Well, if I get a Festiva, I will be crushed like a bug in ANY accident. But if I get an SUV I have a better chance of survival. True, those chances are worse than if everyone (including me) had a Festiva--but as I've said before arguments from "if only everyone would..." are pointless.
This is a fairly simple example of the Prisoner's Dilemna.
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Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
"I will gladly pay you today, sir, and eat up
Sacred cows make the best burgers.
The problem is, in a SUV, you are more likely to slide on snow. I can take my '99 Pontiac Grand Prix up to 35 mph and stand on the brakes on the snow (not the best way to drive in those conditions, but some times you have no other choice). The antilock brakes will kick in and my car will stop in a straight line and I still have enough control to swerve if I have to. If you try that in something that is as heavy and off balance as an SUV you will slide. Stopping ability isn't enhanced by mass. And no matter what anyone has said here, the easiest accident to survive is the one that you aren't in.
I have great faith in fools - self confidence my friends call it. - Edgar Allan Poe
Yes, I have heard of sports cars.
My uncle owns a '68 Road Runner and a '69 Dart. My father is reconstructing his '72 Challenger, and my brother just bought a '72 Demon.
Unfortunately, it's a little hard to enjoy those vehicles for more than three or four months a year, here. I live in NB, Canada, and winter is terrible.
My point was not to say that SUVs are the most fun vehicle in the world to drive, but they're a great all-around vehicle for the power hungry familyman/soccermom. They get through snow (if you're not an idiot), the can tow the family tent trailer, and they have enough room to get groceries AND pick up "the kids", some of which you've never met, yet eat most of your food.
Plus, you feel empowered by the size/height/power of the thing.
I drive a Neon, heh.
I wouldn't call the S2000 a trade-off between performance and technology. Nor the Accord Type-R. (though I'd prefer them to slide a bit more ;-). Ever been in one of those?
The latter was once compared to a Porsche 911 (Carrera I think, but some 911 for sure) in terms of performance. Try driving the LUPO (or any VW to that respect) at 9000 rpm (which those Hondas can) and NASA will be on the phone to you to take your pistons out of orbit. B-]I agree: they've got some of the finest engineers in there. But, furthermore, they also build some of the most efficient engines (certainly so for the mass consumption market) around. BTW, isn't it about time the American car manufacturers considered making their engines efficient too? They are really the other end when it comes to efficiency, say all you like. If you're not convinced, take any of the latest US-made cars (w/o a turbo) and make an average of their BHP/litre efficiency and compare that to the European and the Japanese ones (again w/o a turbo).
Ahhh, the sound of a VTEC engine at 8000 rpm!!! 8-)
Then again, I wouldn't complain about one of those babes 8-)
TrianI'm no longer fed up with MS Windows: I go rid of them
errr... I also have antilock brakes... so what... traction IS enhanced by mass... I can stop and start on steep hills no problem.. I can drive 65 in a blizard and pass people in several inches of snow.. no problem.. If I have to stop quick.. I have my antilock breaks or worse case senario I can go off road and 4 wheel drive right back on again... my SUV is not "off balance" its not like I have some huge weight hanging off the drivers side or something... we have ice storms every other week up here and I drive the speed limit while other people trickle down the breakdown lane with their hazzard lights on cause they are SOOOOO afraid of driving in it...
YouTube & Google Video -> podcast http://castcluster.blogspot.com/
They claim that it boosts gas mileage from about 12 mpg to about 16 mpg, which is actually a more significant gain in terms of total gas consumption than moving from the Civic HX's 35/42 to the Insight's 60/71.
I don't understand how you say this 33% gain in fuel economy is more significant than the Insight's ~70% gain? I guess you are saying that if you are drive x miles in either vehicle, you will reduce the volume of gas used more in the Chrysler (33% of a huge number is more than 70% of a much smaller number), but that seems a bit on the perverse way of looking at things...then they REALLY should be switching from the Chrysler to the Insight for a 500% increase in fuel economy! Of course, driving a Honda Prelude, I really wish a lot of these darn SUVs would go away so we could return to a time when you could actually see beyond the car in front of you (and no I am not a tailgater by any stretch of the imagination)!
It's not a perverse way of looking at things at all. The goal of high fuel efficiency is to reduce total gasoline consumption. Converting a behemoth from execrable gas milage to merely bad has a much bigger impact on total gas consumption than moving a car from really good gas milage to phenomenal. This is similar to the (unfortunately ignored) point that pollution reduction can be accomplished more cheaply by removing a handful of gross polluters from the streets than by requiring all new cars to be pollution free. Overall it's much easier and more effective to fix the biggest offenders (in either fuel consumption or pollution) than to require the cars that are already really good to get even better.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
I'm starting to wonder if there's some sort of correlation between one's height and the displacement of one's car engine.
With my 400 V8, I can drive down the road and say to myself, "my engine is bigger than his, and his, and hers, and his, and his, and hers, and...". It's an amusing way of passing time in a traffic jam. At the same time, I'm also 6'4", almost dwarfed by you, but all the same, I'm still frequently the tallest person in any given public place.
Interesting. Is the big engine borne of the practical need for a larger vehicle, or is it because we just like big things? I know both factors are at play with myself.
The biggest engine I've ever worked on was quite impressive, and a hell of a lot of fun. It was a MAN B&W diesel on a Great Lakes bulker ship. It was 4 stories tall, with a redline of about 75 RPM (but the Chief Engineer told me he'd never had the guts to rev it above 70 RPM). The valve springs were bigger than I am. And there I was, hanging off a catwalk on the side of a running engine, changing the oil pressure sensor for the front main bearing. :)
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Speak for yourself, not for others. I have actually put my money where my mouth is by buying a small, fuel efficient car rather than an SUV- and no it's not because I couldn't afford an SUV. Of course my economy car actually got better crash test ratings than a lot of mid-sized SUV's, so I'm not actually giving that much up.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
The nicest thing about the American school of engine design is that you don't have to revv the engine up to 9,000RPM to make power.
Less RPMs = less energy wasted to make the pistons stop, change direction and start moving again. Unless you drastically cut the weight of your pistons (making them more fragile to detonation and engine load), you're going to exponentially reduce your efficiency.
Further, the more times your pistons go up and down for a given mile of road travelled, the more wear that your rings, bore and bottom end will experience, and therefore the less lifespan your engine will see.
Sure, the Japanese have manufacturing quality now to the point of an art that has yet to be duplicated anywhere else in the world. But I still don't like any engine where the manufacturing tolerance is the only factor towards longevity.
Give me an old Chrysler Slant-6 any day. They redline at 4,500 RPM, and with a 4.125" stroke and a 3.40" bore, they're massively oversquare. In low gears, they can pull stumps. In a higher gear, they can pin you back in your seat when you hit the gas on the highway. All without pushing the tach past more than about 3,500 RPM.
Not coincidentally, they're world-renowned for lasting nearly forever.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
You say that like it's a bad thing. I'd pay extra to have that. On other people's cars, anyway.
<grin> You have a point...
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Your SUV has twice as much mass as my car and the same area for traction on the road. Your mass means that roughly the same amount of traction has to fight twice the inertia. And if you look at the friction coefficient of ice and snow, adding mass doesn't significantly add to the amount of traction. If you are going down the road at 65 in the snow, then it won't be long until you end up in an accident. The problem is, when you do there is a good chance that you will end up running over another car and killing whoever is in it.
I support your right to drive whatever you want, but I think that EVERYONE on the road should be required to pass a driving course similar to a motorcycle, and be endorsed to drive whatever class of car that they want to take on the road. I also think that there should be federal bumper height minimums that are enforced on EVERY car and truck. This includes SUV, pickups, aftermarket modifications, etc. Along with that, all SUV that are based on a car frame, have a leather interior, wood paneled interior, etc should have to pass the same safety and emissions standers as a car, not a truck.
I have great faith in fools - self confidence my friends call it. - Edgar Allan Poe
I'll readily agree. The Japanese have been building cars with absolutely amazing assembly quality over the past few years. I just don't like their designs.
Nor will I ever forgive Honda for the absolutely incredibly poor assembly quality of some of their older models. They make Detroit's worst quality control failures (ie. the Chevy Vega/Pontiac Astre) look like a Mercedes in comparison.
The biggest issues with low redlines isn't caused by the fact that Detroit's assembly quality isn't as good as the Japanese. It's that Detroit's engines have traditionally had fairly long strokes. The longer the stroke, the higher the piston speed at a given RPM, and therefore the higher the reciprocating forces are. But it has the benefit of not having to reciprocate the engine as frequently to produce a given power.
Unquestionably, I'd love to see the automakers unions get busted. When you've got some half-wit with a ninth-grade education and a lottery ticket addiction machining connecting rods for $21/hr, you can't afford to throw away the marginal ones. This is where the failures in Detroit's quality control lie. It appears suicidal that Detroit hasn't been able to address this issue, but the unions are very strong. Most Japanese and European automakers don't have the problem to anywhere near this extent, even if they're unionized at all.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
I'd imagine my tires are a bit bigger than yours... but aside from that... If we are talking about glare ice I'd imagine you are right and it would be harder for me to stop than you.. but in any depth of snow my weight (2 tons) gives me a HUGE advantage...
I dont believe most real SUVs frames are based on car frames anymore than a truck frame... my SUV is JUST like several pickups made by the same company with an extra piece where the trucks have an empty truck bed... any way.. if we have to have all these lame standards for cars I guess ALL vehicles on the road should have to conform... from motorcycle to big rig...
what the hell good does a bumper hieght minimum do? you'll still have all these rocket-like race cars on the road with a bumper that could be a plow if it was shapped different... those dudes are dead no matter who they hit... and your no more at risk of having my bumper come through your window than I am of some 18 wheelers bumper coming through mine... whats the difference?
YouTube & Google Video -> podcast http://castcluster.blogspot.com/
That's not a function of the fact that the engine is a long-stroke low-revving motor (which the 3.9L V6 and its optional cousins, the 5.2L and 5.7L V8s both are). The reason a Durango is a gas guzzler is because it's heavy, has fairly soft and wide tires and has a fairly large frontal area for the wind.
At the same time, I'd question your sources, for you appear to me to be rather ignorant. Both the Lincoln Navigator and the GMC Yukon are far bigger and heavier vehicles and have far worse gas mileage ratings, therefore usurping the Durango's place as the "second worst". And, since I see them frequently at GM and Ford dealerships here in Toronto, I know that they're available in Canada.
And that's only counting SUVs. Dodge still makes the V10-powered Ram, available with a 4x4 drivetrain and a one-ton suspension. I'm sure if you drive that with the hammer down, you'll go through twice as much fuel as the Durango.
Further, it's not illegal to build, sell or buy a vehicle that gets 2 miles per gallon, let alone what these vehicles get. You'll be taxed to hell on the purchase of it, but it's not illegal to sell a car or truck no matter how much fuel it uses. Amazingly enough, despite the fact the federal government screws with every aspect of Canadian society, they haven't yet done that.
So, you're so full of feces that your eyes are brown. You clearly don't know as much about automobiles, engines, or mechanical engineering as you believe you do.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
I doubt that you tires are that much wider than mine unless you aren't running stock tires/wheels. My car has low profile wide performance tires. The size of the tire doesn't matter, only the contact patch. And like I said, I have been driving 35 in the snow and HAD to stand on the breaks, and I didn't slide and I still had the ability to swerve. I have driven vans in the snow that grossed out over two tons and all that the extra mass did was keep me sliding down the road.
Almost all SUVs are based on cars, but that isn't the point. All passenger vehicles should have to meet the same standards.
I recently saw an accident where a Nissan Maxama rear-ended a Honda SUV at low speed (about 20 mph) and the SUV stopped about halfway up the hood of the car. Had there been much more speed involved, the SUV bumper would have been through the windshield of the car. A Maxama isn't a rocket-like race car, in fact I think that it would be a good representation of a typical family car. In my car, which is a relatively large car, I look out the window at the bumper of the larger SUVs. In an accident with something like an Excursion or a Navigator I would be crushed. I know what the standards in Indiana are for the bumper on an 18-wheeler and the front bumpers match up with the bumpers on my car (the back bumpers are a different matter, but we need to work on that too). I would probably be killed in a high-speed crash with an 18-wheeler, but that would be because of the transfer of energy, but because I was rolled over.
I have great faith in fools - self confidence my friends call it. - Edgar Allan Poe
I've had to stop, swerve and go off road to avoid idiots driving in the snow... with probably all 4 of my SUVs all made by different people and I have always felt in control and never been part of an accident... I drove my dads little Honda whatever in the snow once (FWD) and the damn thing felt like it had a mind of its own... it was very scary.. all I can relate to you is my experience and I feel there is no comparison, my SUV is safe.. little cars are not...
I would probably be killed in a high-speed crash with an 18-wheeler, but that would be because of the transfer of energy, but because I was rolled over.
huh?
YouTube & Google Video -> podcast http://castcluster.blogspot.com/
You are talking thru your ass. Taking inflation into account, we have (or had 6 months ago) all time low pump prices here in the USA (when crude was ~10/barrel).
Now, that crude price has trippled, but the pump price has gone up no more than 50%.
Taxes in Europe make most of the difference at the pump.
In the last 30 yrs, inflation has seen approx 8x increase in prices; if gas went along with that; we would be paying $3-4/gallon. So it seems that gas has only gone up about 4x.
-Reid
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
See the reply to it.
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Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
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Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
O.K., tell me how, then, that oil companies are making a nice profit selling oil at current world crude oil prices?
Inflation isn't uniform.
You can continue to claim this is impossible, but the fact remains that it has been done. By a children's toy, no less. It was a little boat with an air turbine on one end of a slanted shaft and a water propeller at the other end. Dropped into the water, it would weathervane so that the air turbine was downwind and then plow upwind until it ran into something. Put it on the lee side of a pond, recover it on the windward side.
The boat had a disadvantage that a car does not; a propeller operating in a fluid loses considerable energy to slip, where a tire on pavement loses very little under normal conditions. At the limit, you could have a turbine turning a ballscrew pushing at a tiny fraction of the windspeed. It's painfully obvious from this that you could shove the platform carrying the turbine directly into the wind. Once you've settled this, the only question remaining is how efficiently this can be done. The efficiency determines how fast you can go. Go back and run my numbers for groundspeed = 1/2 airspeed, and see how low your efficiency could be and still make it work.
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Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
Actually, you can do that with any liquid oil (though doing it with solid fat or animal fat is tricky because it gels more easily in cold temps), and the resulting mix of esters is supposed to be quite a bit cleaner-burning than regular #2 petroleum fuel oil (and also very easy to make; the process is very similar to soapmaking). I read most of what I know about it here. Based on what they say, this stuff is pretty cool.
-lee
I knew that the plate transfer fees in Illinois were on the high side, and I also heard that the yearly plate fees went up to over $70 bucks a year? Ohio fees are not that bad for car ownership. Admittedly, both are states could be worst, we could be paying ad valorem fees like Kentucky or Colorado.
Now here's an intersting deal, I drive a 95 Saab Convertible, just got it for $14500, it has 52k miles. An outstanding deal on an oustanding car, but really, the car's first few years depreciation is hideous, which makes it such a good deal now.
One thing you notice these days about cars is that automakers are selling them loaded, and people expect them loaded. If I get into a new car today and I don't power windows and door locks, I think that something is seriously wrong with the person. It used to be that 20-30% of new Accords were the DX, which had no options on it, these days it's like 5%...and now it's the EX that's the most popular (adds bigger engine and sunroof) as opposed to the LX which is a fairly well equipped automobile. I would bet that taking into account so many cars with all of these features is also raising up the price much more than it would have ten years ago when we weren't so crazy about power windows and stuff.
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Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
obviously we will evenutally run out of fossil fuels. But at present, there are far more sources of it than are being used because it just isn't worth the money to start drilling new wells. We ARE finding many more sources of fossil fuel at present that we need. A little bit of research will will show I'm right. I wish I could site a souce off hand, but my memory is not that good :)
Oh, I'm not an environmental propagandist. Among other things, I'm pro-nuclear-power, and I take a lot of heat over it from green wackos. But unlike you, I'm informed and reasonably good at arguing for my positions. You're just using ad-hominems, where you haven't fallen to outright flaming. Pitiful.
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Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
Ahhh. Pretty heavily modded, then :)
Enjoy!
Something hugely scary I saw in an article recently - an 1000BHP Skyline R33. Turned up in a 0-100-0 test and went off the line without clouds of smoke from its tyres... No, they weren't sure how, either. Pulled 0-60 in 3.68 secs, 0-100 in 6.93. Accelerating so hard that the reaction time for the brakes spoiled it a bit, though - that turne d out at 1.79, for a total of 12.74.
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
I'm not so imperssed with the tech, personally. None of the hybrids are really that hot yet, so you're buying partly for the car geek factor. To me, the Insight has more than the Toyota Prius - the car you appear to mean. The Previa's an 8-seater MPV...
Part of it though, I'll freely admit, is that Toyota's cars are mostly rather dull. Nice sports models, but the Corolla and the like are _so_ dull. I just prefer Hondas as a range.
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
The "priapism"...
Fair enough. I suppose geography can make a difference. Still, in Canada you could still have a lot of fun in an Audi (pick anything quattro, I'd personally go with the S4 or TT), any of the rally cars from Subaru, etc. Y'all can buy Peugot in Canada, right? They make some nice rally sedans. A 4wd wagon makes better sense than an SUV, because you get the car benefits (better handling, lower center of gravity) with 4wd and plenty of hauling space (which are things that not evry SUV provides, for that matter). Plus you still get pretty good fuel milage, eh?
itachi, who thinks that rear drive in canada could suck big time
Apparently Chrysler is looking at hybrids for, of all things, SUVs. The use a somewhat different system, with the gas engine driving the rear wheels and the electric motor driving the front wheels (when needed). This apparently simplifies it a lot and makes the system cost only about $3000. They can get away with a lot by doing this, too; they can use a V-6 instead of a V-8, don't need a 4WD system, etc.
They claim that it boosts gas mileage from about 12 mpg to about 16 mpg, which is actually a more significant gain in terms of total gas consumption than moving from the Civic HX's 35/42 to the Insight's 60/71. With gas prices where they are, they can't justify the system based on fuel savings alone, but it may pay for itself with a combination of gas savings, reduced gas guzzler tax, and improvements to the Corporate Average Fuel Economy. Certainly if the Government starts increasing the gas tax or bumping fuel economy standards, this may be a reasonable choice.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
Diesel/electric - the sum is more than the parts. It's the perfect combo, and it addresses the shortcomings in both.
The LCD rear view screens are an excellent idea, especially from the standpoint of drag. However, being an engineer, I'm going to be picky...
Why two screens, and two cameras? You could completely eliminate any and all protrusions from the side of the doors by axing one camera and one LCD screen, and instead mounting one camera (maybe with a wide-angle lens) at the rear of the car (beside the CHMSL maybe). Then you'd also only need one LCD screen. Voila - half the cost, with all the nerdity preserved!
The windmill idea is.. interesting. A bit to granola-munching for my tastes, however. For the price of all the equipment, and the time it takes to set up and dismantle DAILY, how many KW's of electricity could you buy instead? How about something a little more proven, like solar panels on the garage? It just seems like there was a surplus windmill generator lying around, and he needed to find a use for it. Either way, I'd much rather mount it on the garage, or in the middle of the yard. One slip and your pretty little car has an ugly gouge on its roof.
Mr. Ska
According to Toyota's web page, the Prius is supposed to get 52 highway/45 city on the mileage (your mileage may vary). Since the driving factor (no pun intended) behind purchasing a hybrid econo-box like these is its fuel efficiency, it seems that Honda has a leg up in round one.
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Gort! Klatu Barata Nikto!
*Obviously* you're paying attention to the automaker's marketing blathering and not to the actual safety numbers - SUV's have a tendency to roll over (saw two SUV rollover's the other day) and to burst into flames. SUV's are by far not the safest vehicles you can own. It's not worth it, esp. when for the money you can buy a Volvo with side-impact air bags.
electric cars may avoid the gasoline problem up front, but they still need to get electricity from *somewhere*
That's what the regenerative braking is all about. Instead of getting your electricity from the power plant, you're generating it yourself.
Also, for a good look at one of these from the eyes of a non-technical consumer, you might want to check out this article from the Viridian mailing archives. It shows that the very design of the car not only promotes fuel efficiency mechanically, but also promotes the user to be more fuel efficient.
Feminism is the wild notion that women are human beings.
I've been thinking for a long time that the major problem with electric vehicles is range (Can't take a trip to grandma's you know.) But most of the time I don't need more than a 20 mile range in town. Wouldn't it be cool if in the next generation, Honda could provide enough battery to get you 20 miles per day without using a drop of gas, but still have the gas engine as a backup, or for long range trips. I don't know about you, but if I only had to go the gas station a couple times a year when I would actually need to take a long trip in my hybrid car, that would almost be worth the $20000.
Yes, electric cars rely on power plants. Hybrids, however, do not. The required electricity is generated from the gasoline; therefore, it's more efficient than a gasoline-only system. This isn't a case of equivalent pollution coming from the car exhaust or from the power plant--one never 'plugs in' the Insight.
see my other replies on the same subject in this thread, that extra safety is an illusion. apply some logic instead of ball-scratching, red-neck rhetoric and your argument falls apart.
sorry this is somewhat flaming, but i get so tired of this argument being used all the time.
today's cars individually burn cleanly,.. but when you have 50,000 excursions being built per year (and many more explorers, blazers, etc.),..
i am no environmentalist, but driving a 10mpg behemoth is irresponsible.
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
Actually, not really. Since gasoline engines have to take their power plant with them, they run at only 15%-60% efficiency, depending on whom you ask. OTOH, power plants can be large and heavy because they don't have to roll. Therefore, they can use more advanced techniques that are much more efficient than the best gasoline engines.
Friends don't let friends misuse the subjunctive.
Kias have some of the worst crash ratings in the industry... no surprise - I could build a better car for less using only duct tape and bailing wire, with corrugated cardboard for the chassis.
Really, though - the government (most state and the fed) give tax breaks or rebates for energy saving vehicles like these, and a $20k car isn't really all that bad (though when that's a year's wages, it *is* high).
Heck, get a used Geo Metro (gosh I hate those) for a couple grand a get 50mpg. Just don't try to push the three cylinders to highway speeds...
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
While peering at the dash, he pointed to the LCD monitors and asked "what are those hoochies?" I wish you could have seen the look on his face when we showed him the tiny color cameras. As we were about to drive off he asked us where we were from. I just looked Chris, looked back at the man, smiled and said "We are from the future."
:-) Its the kind of stunts we played on an unsuspecting and gullible public back in university.
This would have had even more effect if they had been dressed strangely. Maybe they were.
the AC
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
You put the windmill on top when the car is stopped, for overnight charging.
The cake is a pie
Too bad the early Civics and Preludes into which these motors were fitted had myriad safety deficiencies, not limited to brakes that could be activated by a passenger pressing a foot too hard on the passenger side firewall.
I had one of these - was my first car.. that passengar side "brake" was a lot of fun for my buddies. Yes the car felt like tinfoil, and wasn't the best for acceleration, but we still had a blast in it.
Too bad I'll never trust another Honda product again.
That is too bad. I now have an 89 Civic hatchback. It is a great car, have had VERY few problems with it. I will definately look at a Honda again for the next car.
True but.... a mirror has alot less parts that can break. In fact, short of physical impact they just wont break. Even if you have power mirrors and the electrical system that runs them breaks...you can still see something in the mirror.
However then again....You can drive without mirrors...just turn your damned head. I drove for 2 years with no left side mirror once (was broke when the car was given to me...was broke when I traded it in).
I supose the possibility of autoadjustment and night vision outweigh the danger of failure....but how much does it cost to have fixed?
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
If we say the Insight gets 70mpg and the Neon gets 35mpg (reasonable?) then at a $10,000 price difference with gas prices at a nicely calculable $1.50, you break even after just 233,333 miles, I believe.
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Both the Honda Insight and the Toyota Prius use wasted energy from deceleration (is that what happens when you take a Celeron out of your computer?) to charge the electric engine - no plug necessary!
The windmill is pointed *sideways*, so that it takes advantage of cross-winds. Ordinarily a pain to drive in, now you can use them to charge your car!
-russ
p.s. I know.
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Spare tire? I want a spare car!
Put a couple of hooks into the rafters in the garage, and you can hang three or four Hondas.
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. - Cmdr. Susan Ivanova
People powered cars get better fuel economy. Just fill up at the local drive-in.
But in reality, it sounds like a closed-circuit TV thing, not really something to worry about
Where there are electronics, there can be a jammer. I doubt it will be common, but someone could screw with the electronics somehow. A problem, but someone can take your mirrors, with the same affect.
I'd think more about the relibility, and wether the camera and lcd system would work as well at night -- I think headlights might wash it out, and you probably want to be able to adjust the brightness on those LCDs.
Headlights are a pain, whether it is in a standard mirror, or these cameras. Washout might be more significant here, but what's worse, the washout or being unable to look at the mirror because it is too bright?
I assume there is some kind of filter to handle all but the worst of lights. And there still is a traditional rear view, I think, in the middle of the window.
(As an asside, re-locating the side view mirrors has been something that has been done before. My mother regales me with fond-remembered stories of her pugeot(sp?) which had side view mirrors located on the hood of her car. She loved them; sounds weird to me.
Check check your your duplex duplex switch switch. VW==Audi, last time I checked.
Yes, "drivers of small SUVs are involved in more fatal rollover accidents than any other type of vehicle." The problem is in the adjectives. If you could take out "small" and/or "rollover" and have a true statement, that would be interesting. But you can't. First, most fatal accidents are front and side impacts not involving rollovers, and SUVs survive these better than smaller vehicles. Fatal rollovers are actually pretty rare. Second, if you are worried about fatal rollovers, get a large SUV.
There are reasons to dislike SUVs. Safety isn't a good one. They are safer than other vehicles.
Yes, on the Civic CRX-NP. The joke was that the "NP" stood for "No Performance". Put a small enough engine in any car and you can get fantastic gas mileage.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Check out these search results.
(gas is STILL cheaper than it's ever been for us -- remember the 1980s?)
Yeah, back when we used to pay four dollars a gallon?
Gas is two dollars a gallon where I live..is that cheaper than it's ever been? Hah. You fool, gas prices are still rising.
Love, Lix
It's safer due to intelligent engineering, not bulk - and that gives you most of the SUV benefits without the huge size and lousy gas mileage.
Lots of fun to drive, too.
My main complaint about SUVs is that they're gut-wrenchingly ugly.
D
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Translation: The A8 is lighter, stronger and safer.
The A8 is also very expensive. Expect to pay at least $60,000 for one, and that's without the ever-so-nice Quattro all-wheel-drive system.
The aluminum frame costs some serious money, plain and simple.
For more information, click here.
if your side mirrors have been replaced with LCD screens, wouldn't that make this thing illegal to drive?
No. Take the doors off a Jeep and guess where the mirrors go? In the garage with the doors.
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People have been saying that for hundreds of years. (since Malthus) In every case, they've been wrong. I see no reason to assume that we should actually attempt zero population growth, just for the peace of mind of a few loonies.
If you had actually bothered to look at the article, you'd know that hybrids like the Insight (and the Prius) use regenerative braking and the engine to charge the batteries. These cars aren't more fuel-efficient because they use socketed power to make up the difference; the electrical systems make it possible to use the gas power much more efficiently.
I understand, though. Rushesque spouting off on random topics you haven't bothered to comprehend can be a lot of fun...
If you really wanted to insure your survival in a vehicular accident, you would have gotten a 2nd hand short yellow school bus. Now those things can take a beating. I've seen half a dozen direct impacts involving these things, 1 of which I was a passanger, and 1 of which my car was impacted by while I was stopped at a red light. Barely a scratch.
The accident I was involved with, The bus was coming towards me in the opposite lane, and the driver had already started before the light changed. I saw the green, and then saw a little blue toyota not stopping coming down the inclined road into our intersection. The toyota didn't stop at all, smacked right into the bus, got crushed. What did the bus do? It veered into my lane (the opposite traffic), destroyed 80% of the front of my car (8,000 bucks of damage on a 12K saturn), then glanced off, and ran over a fire alarm box. A slight dent in it's side where the toyota impacted it at 35+ mph, and hardly a scratch on the other side where it creamed my car, and hardly a scrach in it's front where it ran over the fire alarm box. Oh yeah, and I wasn't harmed at all. I can't say the same for the folks in the toyota, they didn't look too good picking themselves up off the asphalt of the intersection with blood pouring out of their scalps. They weren't wearing seat belts.
I've seen many a SUV wrapped around a utility or light pole. They don't seem to withstand quite a beating. But boy do they make you look cool. Good luck.
Today's SUV's are certified as "light trucks" for EPA purposes. This means they're allowed to emit lots more nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide and unburned hydrocarbons (so-called NMOG, Non-Methane Organic Gases, which are smog precursors) than cars are allowed to. Every mile you drive, you are polluting the air well beyond what a car would.
Then there's the global-warming impact. You may be a denialist, but glaciers are disappearing the world over, pack ice is vanishing in the arctic, ice shelves in the antarctic, and sea levels are rising. Weather is getting more severe the world over. Between Africa drying out and Florida going underwater (not to mention heavily-populated pieces of both coasts) we're going to have a fine time as a result.
If everyone drove something like an Insight or a Prius instead of a gas-guzzling SUV, we'd chop our national CO2 emissions by about a third. We'd also make an enormous dent in our imports, and stop pumping money into dictatorships and banana republics around the world. I find I can get 32 MPG out of my Ford on the highway; what's your excuse for being a wastrel?
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
I agree with your comments!
My mommy says she drives this big truck, and gets 5 mpg, so the planet will be totally wrecked by the time i'm 21. Now i know she really loves me.
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it's a sig, wtf?
"I also do agree that SUV's don't make sence [sic] for everyone but a lot do have good reason's (eg towing capacity etc...) "
And if we DON'T have "good reasons" (according to you), we should feel bad about wanting/driving an SUV?
-thomas
"And like that
apart from carting shit about, my trail bike goes anywhere your monster goes, and is tons of fun to ride. too bad you spend all that cash on your car, a bike shits on a car for raw power any day (bike = engine with wheels). however some twits still think they can race me at the lights and win...
i never bothered to calculate fuel efficiency, but i estimate it's something around 150k's off 5L of premium.
just an observation: if this thing had the regular rearview mirrors instead of being "tricked out" with lcd screens, it probably wouldn't need that stupid windmill.
I think it was a '90 or thereabouts. I don't know; I'm a little wary of these hybrid vehicles. The more parts, the more things that can fail. The idea of having two full-blown motor systems just seems like a recipe for expensive repairs. Granted, diesels tend to be pretty hardy motors, but...
I think it's going to be pretty tough to beat total cost of ownership of a good ol' 4 stroke, gasoline engine.
--
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
The article incorrectly states that Honda implemented a variable valve lift system on its Civic motors, calling this system VTEC. The VTEC valve train is actually a variable valve TIMING system. Toyota's VVTL-i system, available on the Echo, Celica, MR2 and Corolla this year, provides variable lift and timing, the first variable lift system that I am aware of.
"Hey everyone I've got a million dollars to blow on gas"
Let me ask you this; What's a bigger status symbol, driving an SUV, or being able to afford another car to do most of your driving, while only using the SUV when you need it?
Yeah, I own an SUV, 2WD 1992 Isuzu Rodeo. Been off-road only a couple times, but I didn't buy it to go off-road anyways. My ex-wife was (still is) a horse trainer. Had that thing LOADED with tack many a time going to and from horse shows. Now that my 2nd wife and I own a house, we've used it many times to haul a load from Home Depot or Eagle. Couldn't have done it with my wife's Civic or even my dad's Camery.
Sure, I'd love a car that got better milage for that 95% of the time I don't need the size of the SUV. But we can't afford 3 cars. I live in the people's republic of California, where the registration cost of a car is based on it's selling price (Unlike enlighted states, such as Washington). And insurance is out of sight. So I guess I'm gonna keep driving the SUV, keep getting all of 15 mpg. We'll drive my wife's Civic on weekends when we're not going to Home Depot. I just can't see giving up the SUV, though. I've hauled too much stuff too many times.
Merde, il pleut encore!
Actually, lots of cars do...
[from the Audi S8 info]
The Audi Space Frame
With the remarkable and revolutionary Audi Space Frame (ASF(R)), the A8 is the world's first premium luxury sedan with an all-aluminum construction. Working with Alcoa, Audi developed seven new aircraft grade alloys to make the dream of a performance luxury car a reality.
The results are extraordinary. The A8 drives with precision and grace. Where larger cars meander through quick-change maneuvers, this car attacks. With gusto.
Additionally, aluminum's ability to better absorb impact energy allows for a bigger safety shell. The lighter characteristics of aluminum also ensure better driver feedback. Improved acceleration. And, faster braking.
Translation: The A8 is lighter, stronger and safer.
[/Audi Plug]
There are other maufacturers doing similar things, but it sure makes sense in a energy conserving vehicle like the Insight.
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
Safety wise, you are both right and wrong. Yes, it has a better chance in a collision (the weight will see to that) however, there is a big trade off. Specifically, you will roll ever very easily, then all that additional weight isn't your friend anymore. My father flipped his Bravada on a flat road simply by jerking the wheel in an attempt to swerve around an accident that took place in front of him. My little honda civic would have taken that manuver in stride, but bravada ended up on it's side.
It's called "freedom"
That I agree with you on. If people want to drive them, they will. Sometimes their reasoning in a little off, but like you said, it's freedom.
Finkployd
That site doesn't seem to be working right now, but I still remember its mockup of a Kenworth SUV.
Trouble is, I think people would buy it. Seriously.
D
[Kenworth is a heavy truck manufacturer if you didn't know].
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So light, in fact, that I'm almost sure you can't take it over, say, the Mackinac Bridge in Michigan, where the natives inform me that Geo metros are banned, because they have a nasty tendency of being blown off the bridge.
If that's the case, how does a Geo Metro's weight stack up to the weight of the Insight? And where can't you drive it, for similar reasons? Also, what about these hard tires? I wonder how much more likely they make accidents?
I love the idea of 70 MPG, but I'm kind of curious about how safe this little thing is.
Why do you have a Pathfinder then?
I don't understand your logic. What is the point of 4wd when you don't ever use it?
There is plenty of room left on this earth for many more ppl. The problem is the ppl here today are not equally spread out and in the densely populated areas we do stupid things. The solution is not better technology or less ppl, it is SMARTER people who will get off there butts and make a difference
I haul my friend's race car to the track every weekend, plus tools, tires, etc in the bed. This is a hyped up 5.4L V8 F-150 with some serious engine mods.
I envy SUV and muscle car owners. Compared to my weekend drives, they get EXCELLENT mileage. Hauling 2 tons in the rear, and another 1/2 ton in the bed, I'm lucky if I get 10mpg on the highway. It'll get about 8mpg in the city. And being a Ford (and on new struts) this thing is jacked up and merely laughs in aerodynamics' face. This thing hasn't heard the meaning of downforce.
And the ultimate slap in the face is I never thought to get the optinal 2nd tank. Sure the main holds 25 gallons, but when you're going across a state or two, you fill up pretty often. 50 gallon capacity would be a real timesaver.
Just my random story.
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In my very limited experience, ccds and even film just aren't as good as adjusting to the huge range of intensities that a human eyeball can handle.
I don't think you have to worry about the headlights blinding *you*, because the lcd can't dump out that much light. But it blinds the *camera*. Ever notice how a digital camcorder totally looses it for a bit when you pan from light to shade ?
I think it can be done correctly, and even better than glass. But you might need a fancier camera.
The real question is, does the energy saved by reducing drag make up for the drain on the batteries from running the lcds and camera ?
The one thing I have always wondered about the Insight and the GM EV is why are the rear wheels half covered up?
Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
Hey! I can do one of those! I already have the X-10 wireless camera. All I need is a cheap LCD TV from Radio Shack. I can plug the camera into the rear accessory outlet and point it out the back window. And I can plug the receiver into the cigarette lighter along with the LCD TV.
Hack, hack!
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Stay off the roads jackass
No, what you need is the new Ford Exorbitant.
Detroit, MI - Ford Motor Company announced today the new Ford Exorbitant. The Ford Exorbitant seats 50 comfortably, and even comes with a spare Ford Explorer. The Exorbitant, built on a standard bus frame is the largest SUV ever manufactured. Aside from the spare Explorer, other standard features include a full kitchen, 3 bedrooms, and 1.5 bathrooms.
"Many people have given up their own home and use the Exorbitant as their only living space. It's much more convenient than finding a place to park the Exorbitant," said CEO Jacques Nasser. He continued, "No longer will you be stranded if you run out of gas, or get a flat tire. Sure you could use your cell phone to call for help, but who wants to wait for help? Just unload your Explorer and take care of the problem when you want to."
"I just love it," said soccer mom, Wendy Glickman, "I feel a lot safer knowing I have the spare Explorer. What if I forget my cell phone? What if the GPS in the Exorbitant fritzes out? Half a million dollars is a small price to pay for peace of mind."
Many environmental groups have voiced concerns over the Exorbitant's nuclear powered engine. "Gee, you make a car that doesn't run on gas and they still complain," responded Chairman William Clay Ford, Jr. "This vehicle gets 70,000 miles per enriched Uranium rod, which makes it the most environmental friendly SUV available."
The Lincoln Gigantro based on the Exorbitant will be available next year.
Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
Yes, it has a better chance in a collision (the weight will see to that) however, there is a big trade off. Specifically, you will roll ever very easily, then all that additional weight isn't your friend anymore. My father flipped his Bravada on a flat road simply by jerking the wheel in an attempt to swerve around an accident that took place in front of him. My little honda civic would have taken that manuver in stride, but bravada ended up on it's side.
Finkployd
Okay, well, you're both right, and you're not right. Some SUVs have a high center of gravity that does make them more prone to rollover. The old Jeep CJ-7 was probably the worst ever for this, but the YJ and TJ are quite safe. The Suzuki Samurai was an incredible deathtrap, too.
Today's real SUVs, like the (Grand) Cherokee, Durango, Explorer, Expedition, Yukon, etc. are all fairly good, with a low center of gravity and enough width that, while you could topple them over (as you could with any car), you'd have to work for them. In fact, with the exception of the Cherokee (but not the Grand Cherokee), these are full-frame vehicles, most of them with perimeter frames that concentrate the weight down and away from the center. (On most of them, the frame runs under the rocker panels.)
Now, a full-frame vehicle is actually more dangerous than a good unibody in a serious accident: the frame is basically steel C-channel or box section. If you hit something, the frame isn't going to give all that much. The damage to the vehicle will be minimal compared to the damage on a comparable unibody designed to crumple. So, the truck may survive, but they'll have to hose your brains off the dashboard before they can sell it to the next guy.
Most accidents are minor urban fender-benders. This is why I like my truck. (Note that it's a pickup truck, not an SUV; with the exception of the carpets and leather seats, it's basically the same thing.)
If some guy in a Honda Civic cuts me off and there's 20MPH of speed difference between us when we hit, my front bumper will push his taillights into the back seat. My bumper will be bent, I'll have to replace my grille and maybe my radiator, but my truck won't be seriously damaged.
On the other hand, his Honda will we well on its way to being reincarnated into table legs and manhole covers.
Mass and steel will always win over flimsy Japanese tinfoil and plastic.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Because that "cheap" transportation is expensive, it's just not *you* paying those expenses, it's everyone, and especially, people in the future who may have a harder time getting enough fossil fuels some day.
One of the useful functions of government is to make sure the "hidden" costs are paid up front.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
Yeah and with all the juice you're pouring through its batteries, they should last about two or three years. Then you need a whole new set. Thats a several thousand dollar maintainance fee, ouch. Hope you get the extended warranty.
So far I've gotten all my Karma from telling people they are wrong... :)
Sure, the Insight wins in pure gas mileage, but that's not the only thing to consider.
The Insight is a two passenger, two door vehicle and the Prius is a four passenger, four door vehicle. You might even squeeze five in if two of them are kids, has anybody tried this? The Insight is radically aerodynamically styled - it's rear is severely tapered so that there is really no cargo room. The Prius has a less radical shape and it looks like it has the same cargo capacity as a conventional small sedan.
The Insight looks like it would rock as a commute only vehicle. Not everyone can live with a two passenger vehicle, however. The Prius on the other hand looks like an efficient, clean alternative vehicle to supplement the family minivan.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Hell, yeah! I'd be surprised if even the 5% of SUVs that you exclude see off-road use.
Ya know, the big problem is all the yentas who get behind the wheel of these things, and either leave them in 4-wheel-drive mode all the time, or turn it on when it's raining.
Or, better still, those who drive stupidly in snow because they think the 4x4 drivetrain will somehow allow them to handle and stop better than everyone else.
Gimme a break.
I drive pickup trucks, not because I need the size or the cargo space most of the time, but because I like them - which is what disposeable income and free will is all about. And because they offer a form of insurance that State Farm doesn't offer: If I'm going to die in a car accident with a Honda Civic, I'll be damned well assured that that I'm gonna take the other guy with me.
My trucks are all 2WD, because I don't need 4x4. I've currently got a 1976 Ram, and I love the thing, even though it only gets 7MPG. I love older pickup trucks, because I like the styling, I don't want leather seats or carpeting, and I'm not interested in driving around in something worth $20k + .
My previous truck was, paradoxically, newer: a 1983 Dodge Ram with a Slant-6 and a 4-speed manual transmission. Phenominal gas mileage; if I drove it gently, I could get 450 miles out of a 25 gallon tank of gas. Not bad for an old half-ton.
And it went everywhere, even though it was 2WD. I especially fondly remember watching a woman in a fur coat trying to get an Isuzu Trooper over a snowbank during a big snowstorm in Toronto two winters ago. She was spinning all four tires, just hitting the gas, the friction of her tires turning the snow under her into ice.
I pulled out of the gas station, having filled up, and gently goosed the gas pedal, having shifted early into third gear to give myself some traction. My old Ram hit the snowbank, doing about 30 miles an hour and just plowed through the 3 feet of slush, ice and snow. Then I downshifted quickly and hit the gas hard to fishtail myself into a sharp turn and into the road. I then pulled to the side, got out, and helped the lady get her Isuzu unstuck.
She was freaked out by my little display of winter driving, and commented that "weren't 4 wheel drive vehicles great?".
When I turned around and told her that my trusty old Ram didn't have four wheel drive, let alone a positraction differential, she was stunned, but that didn't stop her from driving her now-freed Trooper through the opening in the snowbank that I had made.
It's all in the driving skill. SUVs have their places, but it's not in the hands of accountants, housewives or soccer moms.
'Course, I grew up in Ottawa and Montreal, two cities known for being blanketed in snow for 5 months of the year. I've had opportunity for practice.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Personally, I'd like to get a next-gen diesel/electric (not these first Hondas or Toyotas - they're ugly and I'll give them a chance to get the implementation details worked out).
Actually, I think that the TCO would be a bit lower than other cars of the same price, because they're using less expensive parts (there's just more of them).
Translation: SUV owners may be smug and self-centered, but don't call them power-mad! I'm sorry, Tomcat, I'll never make that mistake again.
Each culture has its own icons of power and makes seemingly irrational choices in that area -- i.e. the car you choose in the US is not the same as the car you choose in any given European country. So "soccer moms" driving monsters around are a uniquely American phenomenon. Acceleration is an icon for the majority of car owners in Europe...
Environmental concerns are not the same in various countries. I find that most people are concerned about clean beaches and clean air, but they have a difficult time connecting these concerns to their own behaviour/car (the tragedy of the commons, again). Hence the lack of enthusiasm for electrical or hybrid cars. Price is not a major issue when what you are buying is highly valuable to you -- so I've found that many people don't really take price into account when buying a car, and fuel prices have limited influence on car choices (actually, it can be a negative feedback loop, as happened in Sweden about 10 years ago when the government raised fuel taxes in order to discourage driving... many people started to drive more).
Further, it seems that many people make their choices without evaluation (emotions, cultural osmosis, neighbour envy, or nationalism are very frequently fundamental drivers).
All of the above applies in some ways to the choice of computers and the software they run (assuming you have a choice, hmmm...). Think about your computer's environment -- the impact it has on other computers and users.
"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." -- Tennyson
Well, thanks. I'm glad that if YOU'RE drunk, I don't have nearly the same rights as you. Since I drive a Toyota Tercel and give a damn about the air I breathe, I should die when you're fiddling with your CD Player and run that red light.
You know, if NOBODY owned these things, we'd be a shitload safer. But since we're going there, I think I need that Abrams M1-A1.
I'm so glad that you've finally made it clear that the poor environmentallists don't have as much right to survive a collision as you do.
-- IANAEG - I am not an elder god.
Of course no one has a right to live over someone else. But you can't expect people to put themselves at higher risk in order to facilitate a change for the better, which isn't likely to come without government intervention or a quadrupling in gas price.
I understand not liking SUVs, buy my dad got one not too long ago, and I have to say it's pretty nice. Does he go offroad in it? nope. He does make use of the extra space, though.
My guess is that people who don't like SUVs because they are wasteful, probably just plain don't like them for other reasons too. My dad himself has been very conscientious, buying only cars that had very good gas mileage, before now. But now that his needs have changed and he has a little bit more money, he's changed his tune.
I think that if you could take that windmill and make the blades efficient enough, and grease the generator spindle just right, you could deploy the windmill while you were driving and produce enough electricity to propel you foward! (Thus causing air to move past the windmill, making electricity, making the car go forward, causing air to move, etc. etc.)
Hell, on less than windy days, you could even reverse the current to the windmill generator from the battery, thereby making the generator into a motor, and the windmill into a propeller, and blow a brisk wind into a handily deployed front-sail, giving you a one-of-a-kind sail-car that makes it's own wind! With the sail deployed while you are moving, you could even charge the batteries with a Honda portable gasoline generator.
Low rolling resistance tires are great for fuel economy. The engine doesn't have to work as hard, since there is less friction between the tire and the road. Of course, that means less traction when you want to stop or turn.
As the tires fail to turn the car out of the way of the moron that pulled out right in front of you, the ABS pulses frequently since the tires slip as if the road is covered in water, the 1800 lb. weight insures that the other car won't move too much as the Insight crumples itself to half it's size.
Different people have different priorities, but the tires are too important to play with, IMO. I'd be curious to see the fuel economy difference between the stock and some reasonable sticky tires.
275mm wide Z-rated tires at all 4 corners for me, thank you.
This sentence no verb.
EV's can come with windmills... LOL. The windmill is a great idea, but I can definitely see issues with setting it up, and the issue of theft comes to mind... (windmill nappers!)
The CCD camera is a neat idea that's been tossed around, but the daytime visibility of the LCD panels has always been an issue, and probably still is. Bummer.
Lastly, I've always wondered about solar panels. The sunroof would be a logical choice to make out of solar panels - modular, hard-wired, great access to sunlight... I wonder why more EV's don't come with them...?
Look at the metal they make space shuttles out of, it has to last through HUGE temperature extremes and take all kinds of abuse. To quote Chris Rock "You think they can't make an El Dorado where the fucking bumper doesn't fall off?" Its designed to only last a certain length of time so you will need to buy another one sooner.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
Well, I agree honda has had it's share of problems in the past, but they are absolutely unbeatable now. No other way to say it. I work at a tier one supplier for automotive components, and there is no question about the quality of the honda stuff we see come through. They lead the market in reliability, quality, and number of off the line defects. The only thing I don't like about Honda products (with the exception of the sweet looking S2000) is their plain jane looks. But, technically, their product is unbeatable. Their VTEC system is a marvel to behold (i've seen one up close and personal). The aforementioned S2000 makes 240 horsepower out of a naturally asperated (as in no turbo, no supercharger, no ram air) 2 liter inline four cylinder, and redlines at 9000 rpm. It has the most horsepower per liter of any naturaly aspirated engine ever. Granted it doesn't make too much torque, and you have to get the engine spooled to get anything out of it, but it and almost every other honda product is a technical marvel. And rest assured, if you buy a honda product and take care of it, it'll last you a good 300,000. I realise I'm sounding like a Honda sales rep, sorry, but just to show I'm not... I wouldn't buy one for, but for purely performance reasons. I love low rpm torque and throttle response, which basically mean i have two choices. American or German. Well, really just german, if I want it to last more than five years. But even the Germans can't compete with the Japanese for quality and technology.
Eric
Make it idiot-proof and someone will build a better idiot.
(PS- Shut up. I know what you're thinking. I'm a physicist.)
Bingo Foo
---
taken! (by Davidleeroth) Thanks Bingo Foo!
Because it's only used when the car is at rest, it doesn't do much for cruising range. On the other hand, the car probably makes a pretty good anchor for the Whisper wind genny. The real trick would be getting a wind genny you could use while in motion (only works upwind, and not much beyond ground speed of 2x the wind speed), or (in an enlightened world) put wind gennys along windy roads and let vehicles draw power from them via electrified rails.
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
Going a 1/4 mile in a car with an electric motor that powerful would realign all your cells from the magnetic field and you'd have cancer before making it to the burnout box.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
If you're driving an SUV, the likelihood that the other poor fsck in the car you hit will die triples (pulled from a report on CFTO about a year ago).
So you're not driving an SUV to survive the collision; you're driving it to kill somebody.
If you want to merely survive the collision, do everybody a favour and buy a Volvo.
Is this post not nifty? Sluggy Freelance. Worshi
Because gasoline has negative externalities which are only barely taken into account by the US government. If you burn gas, you get the utility (happiness) of it getting you where you want to go. And you also have to bear your share of the pollution it produces, say one in six billion parts of it. Everyone else in the world has to bear the other part of it.
Economics says that you will do something until the additional cost to you equals the additional benefit to you, and that if everyone does this we'll all be pretty ok as a whole. But with something like gasoline the point at which the additional cost to you equals the additional benefit is a bit farther than the rest of society would like you to go, because everyone else has to bear your pollution. This is why things with negative externalities (gasoline, tobacco) are taxed and things with positive externalities (vaccines) are subsidized.
You may think that the tax on gasoline is enough and that gas can never be too cheap, but you're not paying for all of the cost of your driving! I read a study which suggested that in order to take into account all of the costs of gasoline (including the Gulf War, pollution, highway construction, etc.) the gasoline tax would need to be $6.25/gallon. Granted that's probably a bit on the high side, but it should definitely be more than it is now.
Cheap transportation is all well and good, but what we have now is generally subsidized gasoline (because the tax isn't high enough). This results in a lot more transportation being done than should be. It's why we have so much urban sprawl in the US and why there are so many cities you just can't breath in.
Yea and I thought my Buick LeSaber was FUN to drive. Believe me...if you want fun get a motorcycle. Beat most cars on fuel economy and emissions. (but remember loud pipes do NOT save lives, they just annoy the neihbors)
Not to mention they are so fun. I can't stand driving my car anymore. Its just so boring. Ever since I got a bike, its ALL I want to ride.
Not to mention they are smaller. Makes them SOOO easy to park, in most places theres plenty of room to park in-between spots or something and they usually don't get ticketed for it.
Plus they cut down on traffic congestion because they take up less space on the road. Not to mention a good bike can accelrate faster than most cars (though the faster cars like the porches will beat most average bikes, but not all bikes)
As for collision protection, you have your brain. You have to use it. Its the only protection you have.
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
Woo-hoo! I do that, too!
I don't drive drunk, but it's really funny to see one of those silly little Acuras swerve wildly to get out of the way as my 1976 Dodge Ram comes at it.
One of them rear-ended me not too long ago. The idiot thought he was my trailer, the way he was tailgating me. Ya know, it's one of those Hondas with a big "Powered By Honda" sign across the windshield, and dude thinks he's driving a race car.
I stopped for the red light ahead. He didn't stop.
And I was very grateful, not only for the fact that I drive 4,500lbs of Michigan's finest steel, but also because of the Class 3 trailer hitch below my back bumper.
He mashed my bumper, which was resting against his engine block, trashed grille and radiator somewhere between. My bumper cost him $219 to replace.
On the other hand, my trailer hitch, protruding from the engine and welded to the 3/16" thick plate steel frame of my truck, went right though his engine block and into his engine's water jacket.
His car was a write-off. And, when I unbolted the old bumper and bolted on the new one that his insurance provided, my truck's paint hadn't even been scratched.
As long as people still drive like idiots, I'll still drive big and heavy trucks. And when most of the vehicles on the road are as big and heavy as mine, I'll just dust off my air brake license and get myself a good 5-ton cube van for my drive to work.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
I'm just *waiting* for the wrongful death case in an Excursion vs. Civic collision... you're absolutely right, which is why SUV's oughta be banned. (Anything with that much mass not being used for carrying of equipment/goods should be denied from consumer purchase).
Did you read the article? The windmill only goes on at night to charge the battery.
Sheesh.
---------
"There's no swimming in the heavy water, no playing in the acid rain.
"To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!"
Great idea, 70 mpg. I'd love to get that on my commute to work. However I live on a small lot, if I got one of these I wouldn't have room to park my boat unless I got rid of the truck. (Which must be 4wd to get out of some lakes) So I end up getting 23 mpg to work (I check often), just so I can pull the boat once in a while. Wastefull, and I don't like it either, but what else can I do?
In other words, everyone I know would love to get great milage when they can, even if money is no limit we don't have the space to keep all those cars.
Of course if USWorst would hurry up and get my ISDN line installed (or DSL if they ever bother to upgrade the switch) I could get infinatly better gas milage on my commute most days.
The Civic isn't remarkable so much for what is is today - it's remarkable for being a halfway decent car (if expensive), that applies a technology that ultimately will make a big difference in the way cars are built.
Right now, when my wife and I go to drive somewhere, we have a choice. We can drive her smaller Mazda 626 (she used to do a lot of distance driving), or my bigger Chevy Blazer (more comfy inside, hauls tons o' stuff, but only gets 20 MPG on the highway). Both are compromizes. We like the zippiness and economy of the Mazda, and we both like the roominess and visibility in the Blazer. But the mileage tradeoff is significant.
That said, as time goes by I'm looking farward to seeing the principles from the first-generation hybrids like the Toyota and Honda make their way into larger, more comfortable cars. It might well be possible to make a Blazer that gets 30+ MPG on the highway, or a minivan, or a larger family sedan with this technology.
Ultimately, it works out that I either walk to work or take the Blazer (I work in the town I live in - it's a long walk or short drive). She drives the Mazda to her job a couple of towns away. That way, even though I burn more gas, it still takes me a couple of weeks to go through a tank. Someday, as the technology spreads out, that won't matter. There will still be people who accuse me of unspeakable things because I own a sport-utility, but there are practical reasons to own one (how else can you get to Wasque Point on Chappy with fishing gear?) So I'll still have my ute - and it'll be a better automotive citizen, too. Hopefully this kind of technology (and fuel cells, too, down the road) will increase the efficiency of the whole fleet of cars, minivans, and sport-utilities. Then it won't be so important anymore whether you have a Honda Civic or a Ford Excursion from an energy point of view - because we'll all be using less of it.
- -Josh Turiel
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
If I have to choose between a poor environmentalist and myself, I choose me. You would, too, hypocrite.
I'm noticing a pattern here; whenever anyone comes out with something that's efficient, like an all-day laptop or an electric car, it's geared toward the low-end market. When IBM demo'd their ThinkPad with a Crusoe CPU in it (story was on /. a while ago), they modified their worst model, with a tiny screen and no options.
:-) ). I wouldn't buy one of these yet; rather, I would wait until a better compromise comes along, similar to when IBM offers most of its notebooks with Crusoes (hopefully!).
Now Honda is basically doing the same thing.
However, Both companies obviously did it to see how efficient thay could make the product, while at the same time sacrificing lots of good stuff, such as IBM's LCD screen size, the biggest battery hog of all (which makes me wonder why they replaced the mirrors; it's the USB-equivalent kluge of rear-view mirrors
# debian/rules
Well, I'm concerned about which posts they're moderating - half the time it doesn't even look like moderators are browsing the comments! I'd rather see a moderator mod a +1 post to a +2 than nudge a +4 to a +5, which is worthless.
Driving big honkin' cars seems to be a North American problem. One thing that strikes me whenever I go to Europe is the match-box cars that they drive (Fiat, citroen, VW-rabbits :-)
We've been spoiled by cheap gas for too long, and we seem to have a car culture that calls for big luxury vehicles. Maybe this is because we drive further.
As far as fuel prices are concerned, think of them as a tax on polluters.
I have the Insight and my 6'8" friend fits in it. Maybe not comfortably enough for a long trip, but he gets by just fine.
Dunno, last few times I tried to use my brain to block a collision, it hurt a lot. My head hurt too. Using other parts of my body didn't help either.
Eventually I decided to use a friend of mine to block the collisions for me - is that what you meant by using your brain?
Good. Public transit. So I can sit in a subway train full of unwashed derelicts and third-world refugees.
Hey, what are you doing posting on Slashdot? Shouldn't you be warming up for the game tonight?
For more information, click here.
I disagree...I want to see the price of gas go UP.
And yes, I live in the states, and no, I don't own stock in any companies that sell oil. (or any other companies for that matter)
I don't think we should feel guilty for having low gas prices. I just think we shouldn't be whining about it. Right now Americains have the lowest prices in the world that I know of...and they are whining about it!
I think its great myself. It motivated me to finnaly get a mototcyle (which has become my primary vehicle). Hopefully it will motivate others to do things of the sort.
Also it will hopefully create more demand for more fuel effcient vehicles. Even at these prices for gas it would still be cheaper to keep a honda insight filled up than it would cost to keep most cars filled up BEFORE prices went up. Plus it conserves oil supplies, AND is better for the environment.
If you ask me, they are a win all around. If gas prices go up more, perhaps we will see mid-size and fullsize versions of them...then maybe even some of those god-forsaken SUVs (I hoope not but c'est la vie - some people actually like them)
Really...only good can come of it.
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
Hey, how about a drunk driver in a Ford Extrusion, eh? Most drunk drivers are middle aged - not young people - and are more likely to be in a SUV, I'd assume.
First of all, most accidents are caused by young people. Why do you think insurance is so much higher for them? Second, you make my point for me. If some drunk is driving an SUV, then my family and I better be driving one, too (hopefully bigger and stronger).
You burn clean, but you burn a lot of a resource we only have another 20-40 years left of. Bully for you. You should be ashamed to drive something that gets under 20MPG.
This is one of the things that bug me. People have no understanding of economics. Here's a fact... we have an infinite number of years of oil left. That's right: infinite. You know why? Because as it runs out, it gets more and more expensive to pull out of the ground. When the cost rises above alternative fuels, then the alternatives will be used. We will NEVER run out of oil, only cheap oil.
Not to mention that last I heard we had > 100 years of known oil reserves.
--
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
and the pay wasn't nearly as good for doing so.
don't talk to me about economics, friend
in all seriousness, again, apply some logic here,... as long as people are willing to pay, it will keep coming, and people will be willing to pay until the last drops are gone.
yes, alternative fuels and such SHOULD be developed, and it would be good for them to arrive, but where are they? there's not that much oil left,... really, comparitively. the prices will go up, yes, and the consumation rate will go down, sure. but will it go down enough?
it's hard to say. i'm not doing my part, are you? very few of us are doing anything different to help, and as the time approaches closer and closer,...
i'll probably be dead before we run out, so i can't really hold you to a bet, but,.. i wouldn't be surprised if some red-neck moron in his Excursion listening to Garth Brooks uses up the very last gallon of oil going over to Harpo's (of Tom Green Show fame)..
anyway, i'm bored of this thread,.. Onward!
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
There are very few body shops that can straighten an Aluminum frame if damaged. I don't know how many there are now, but when the Audi A8 came out there were less than 5 in the country. I'd hate to see what the shipping cost is if the car needs to be sent 800 miles away to be repaired.
This sentence no verb.
-----------------
There was a chicken and a horse playing together in a barn yard, suddenly the horse falls into a pit. He yells to the chicken, "Go get the farmer, save me, save me!!!". The chicken goes looking for the farmer but can't find him. So he gets the farmer's BMW and drives it over to the mud pit, lassoes the horse, ties it to the car and pulls him out. The horse says, "Thank you, Thank you, I owe you my life.
Then a couple days later they are playing there again and this time the chicken falls into the mud pit and the chicken says, "Help me!!! Help me!!! Go get the farmer!!!". So the horse says, No No No, I think I can get you." The horse stretches across the mud pit and tells the chicken, Grab onto my penis." The chicken grabs on, the horse stretches back, and the horse saves the chickens life.
So what's the moral of the story?
"If you have a penis the size of a horse you don't need a BMW to pick up chicks"
his Honda will we well on its way to being reincarnated into table legs and manhole covers.
And his children will be on their way to the morgue, and his wife will be living in a wheelchair for the rest of her life. And you'll be fine. Because, instead of driving a sensible vehicle that doesn't burn ridiculous amounts of a non-renewable resource, you chose mass and steel and status. Good for you. Fucker.
Wah!
you're probably running NS under X, no? Guess what, Ars aint a Linux site, so the fonts are sized to look normal on PC/Mac, or someone that knows how to fix their default fonts in NS/X.
SUV's aren't really meant for dirt roads.
Oh yeah, once upon a time maybe they were for offroading, but look at the interior of just about any SUV today. Nice plush seats, a rocking sound system, leg room, even a portable TV or the like...
"I'd wage that %95 of SUV's on the road today havn't even driven on a dirt road let alone on a trail or something like that."
Right, and 95% of people buy SUV's because they're big and spacious and really comfortable.
Okay, that's my speil...
-Kefbai out.
Three years ago I was in a Dodge Neon that was broadsided by a SUV that ran a red light. I was relatively unhurt except for flying glass; my girlfriend was in a coma for several months.
The people in the SUV possibly bought their car with the intent of surviving a collision. Their concern after the accident was "Our car is damaged. Oh, and those poor people in the other car, I feel bad, but I'll never have to think of them again." Our concern after the accident was "Will Erin die before she can be medevaced, and will she ever walk again."
Not everyone can afford to buy a car with the philosophy "the heavier the better". But someone else's life can be horribly altered or even ended because someone needed an SUV.
(Dramatic? Maybe. Offtopic? Possible. True? Every word.)
What we have here is a good old case of the prisoners dilema. For those of you who have not heard of it I will give you a quick low down.
Two men are caught by the police. The police have enought evidence to send both of the men to jail for 3 years. Instead the police tell both that if they rat on the other then they will get off scott free and the other person gets 10 years. If both confess and rat on each other then each gets 7 years. In most cases it becomes best to be selfish because you know that the other person will be selfish, IE both loses.
This is fairly similar. If two cars are in a collision then both drivers are hurt. If I get a bigger car than I can "win the battle", and kill the other person. Unfortunately then it is best for everyone else to be selfish and buy the big car and then no one wins.
It is a myth that bigger equals safer. To some degree that is true, but most SUVs do not have adequite roll cages to support the weight of the SUV, if they have a roll cage at all. Also, SUVs are extremely top heavy, which increases the chance of rolling. If the SUV rolls and the roll cage cannot take the weight, or there is no roll cage, then you have a flat SUV. If you get hit by a car that is not a "featherweight deathbox", and the collison is not head on then there is a really good chance that you will tip and roll. If you tip and roll the chances of the roof on your SUV becoming crushed, trapping or killing you and your kids inside, increases exponetially. If you try to swerve away from that "drunk idiot" and you do it too quick, there is a good chance you will end up on your head, again being trapped or killed by the weight of the SUV.
Oh, and even those small cars can do it. My ex-girlfriend was in her truck when it got sideswipped by a small toyota, her truck, which isn't nearly as top heavy or easy to tip as a SUV, flipped.
If you REALLY want to be safe, and you REALLY want your children to be safe, do more research on the topic. The best bets are Volvos, Saabs, Saterns, and vehicles similar to the big towncars.
By the way, the average car today burn at roughly 30-50% effecient, which is really poor. All of the SUVs out there are in the 30%s. Thats 30% of the USEABLE energy. Some of the most effecient vehicles burn at 70-80%, but those are your standard "featherweight deathbox" cars. To finish your last sentince, Today's cars burn extremely hot, because that is where 50-70% of the useable energy is going.
<flame>
Frankly, with the additude that you seem to have, I think you will be doing society a favor when you clean youself out of the gene-pool when your beloved SUV flips and crushes you.
</flame>
Disclamer - Opinion of Person
The world is a crowded elevator and you're farting in it.
blessings,
"Only in their dreams can men truly be free 'twas always thus, and always thus will be."
--Tom Schulman
excellent!!! it's an 85 IROC-Z w/a 305 - unfortunately it's automatic right now, but I'm sure it could romp a stinkin' SUV
Some good advice, but I don't think you should be telling people how they should view posts. Some of us can keep in mind that a post may not really be redundant, by taking the time to look at the posting number. I don't really care how people view posts when they moderate. I'm more concerned that they moderate intelligently.
Good. Public transit. So I can sit in a subway train full of unwashed derelicts and third-world refugees.
Canada's a lot bigger than Toronto. I'm from the East Coast; No public transit here, period. I don't care as much about fuel consumption - that's what the high prices are for, spend your money how you want, it's a free country - I do care about people buying SUVs because they're more "safe". They're not. My mom is a nurse, and gets to clean up messes that SUV's make all the time - and I'm not talking about motor oil. I like trucks! Hell, you can do stuff with them. Try throwing a load of firewood in a Ford Extrusion, be careful not to hurt the leather. SUV's are going to be legislated in Canada to meet the same requirements as cars in 2003. Whoo-hoo.
Your shortsightedness comes from the fact that when I no longer make enough money to be able to drive to work every day, I will move. Period. I'll take my many skills and my good work ethic, and I will pick up and move to the United States, where I shall pursue citizenship and sever all my ties with Canada. And I'll leave Canada with its burgeoning population of highly trained and highly literate convenience store clerks.
Great, more work for me! For the record, I'm a EE - all my friends went to the wonderful USA. Big deal. Made it easy for me to get a job with decent pay, great stock options, and get the laid back atmosphere. You don't get that in the Valley. Demand wont go away. For the record, you are horribly mistake as far as artificially high gas prices go, my friend. Canada has the 2nd lowest prices in the industrialized world. The USA has the lowest prices - one could argue that these are artificially LOW, not artificially HIGH.
The brain drain will continue and Canada's standard of living will drop until all the tree-hugging idiots who can't understand the basic laws of supply and demand back off and let commerce take its place.
You're being funny, now. Do you think the air your car is breathing is free? No, that's a public good. As is the pollution you emit, and that's what the fuel taxes are supposed to cover - that and roads. Most countries price air and roads higher than north america, largely because we're dependant on cars for travel, as the only cities in Canada with subways (to the best of my knowledge) are Toronto, Montreal and Vancover (I think). So high costs affect everyone..
In celebration of gas guzzlers and noxious pollutants, on my way to the office in the morning, I'll disconnect a couple of the spark plug leads on my 6.6L V8 engine. I'll toast you, xtal, with my coffee cup as I drive across Toronto on the 401, listening to the Howard Stern Radio Show, and filling the air with unburnt hydrocarbons as my massive and temporarily detuned engine chugs me to work.
Sure! I'd love to see you burn more gas, because that's less tax that I have to pay - which is why I'm waiting for the $1.00/L prices to happen. The oil and gas industry sees typically 6-12 months in advance - they missed the consumption curve, which is why oil spiked. Spend your money as you want.. I want legislation protecting me from Soccer Moms in SUVs - specifically, training mandated in how to handle SUVs, they certainly don't brake or handle like a car - or outright bans on vehicles exceeding X lbs for passenger classifications.
Let me know when you're leaving for the US, so I can get your job. Until then, burn lots of gas and help lower my taxes!
..don't panic
Anybody interested in seriously bashing SUV drivers ought to check out this article on the Times. Auto companies have put a lot of cash into figuring out why people drive SUV's, with some interesting results. . .
"Sweet creeping zombie Jesus!"
Yeah, but unfortunately you're also driving a behemoth with lousy steering, brakes, and acceleration compared to those "deathboxes". While it is frequently possible to determine blame in accidents, that doesn't mean that those accidents were inevitable products of one driver's incompetence. In most accidents, the correct action by the not-at-fault driver could have avoided or at least mitigated the accident. The superior maneverability, accelaration, and brakes of nimbler cars can help tremendously in this.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
Unlike other hybrid designs, or electric cars, the electric motor is not the primary motor. It is used as a secondary "I need some more power" motor. If you are not using the batteries very often then you will not need to replace them very often.
Disclamer - Opinion of Person
Prius info here and here . I think it's better looking than the Insight, myself -nme!
Diesel? Ick!
As a convertible owner, I wouldn't shed a tear if all diesel vehicles were outlawed. I'm driving along enjoying the sunshine & fresh air and then I get behind a diesel. A mile later I'm yakking on the curb. Bleh.
At the very least they could require that he exhaust be no less than 10' off the ground.
Admit nothing, deny everything and make counter-accusations.
Well, when an american carmaker can build a car for general use that redlines at 9,000 RPM without rattling itself to pieces (The S2000), come back and yak. If you're comparing cars from 1973, I'll volunteer the Ford Pinto to champion the USAmerican side.
Wah!
I'd love to be able to take public transit all the time, but it isn't possible. Unless you live in a very large city chances are good there is little or no public transportation available. Bear in mind, if you live in a small town any taxi service will be extremly expensive.
As for cars being only for transportation, if you think driving is fun, by all means do so. I would prefer that people not drive huge SUVs that will put their bumper throught my windshield in a head on collision. Of course that would actually require people to be concerned about the safety of other people on the road.
Try The National Electric Drag Racing Association.
Bingo Foo
---
taken! (by Davidleeroth) Thanks Bingo Foo!
>> The problem is the ppl here today are not equally spread out and in the densely populated areas we do stupid things.
The problem is that the people are TOO spread out, urban communities are more efficient than rural ones.
The reason crime is higher in urban areas has nothing to do with the fact they're closer together, its the people. Segregation caused millions of racists to vote with their feet and flee the cities years ago. This is how urban sprawl started. I'm not talking about racism, or is segregation good or bad, I'm simply stating that segregation caused millions of chicken shit mighty-whitey men to spread themselves all over our land. This increased our dependance on automobiles. You could say that segregation caused this problem, or you could say that the average white man, (or our grandfathers) did.
Whatever your opinion, this is where the problem started. The reason crime is higher in the urban areas, is that after the mighty-whitey exodus, most developement and land values in the urban areas dropped through the floor. Before this happened, it was the UPPER class who dominated the cities.
I'm not anti-white, but this action by millions of white men, my grandparents included, put us in this situation. In retrospect, I think that less blame should be placed on the blacks and more on the whites for urban decay.
If we could go back to living the way we lived years ago, in communities, the problem would be MUCH less severe.
Fear the government that fears your guns. Fear the government that fears your computers. Remove them from my email.
I don't have a problem with you wanting to drive a big heavy car. And if you want to pay that much for gas that's fine too. My problem is that almost all SUV are too high off the ground. I drive a Pontiac Grand Prix, which is a big car, and I look out at bumper level on most SUVs. I see people all the time trying to bully smaller cars because they think it is there right because they were dumb enough to spend that much on a car. And as for safety, don't just assume that because it is bigger, that it is safer. The Dodge Durango is one of the biggest cars on the road and one of the worst in the 35mph offset crash tests. If you need to haul stuff get a full size van and if not, I highly recommend a 1979 Lincoln Towncar.
I have great faith in fools - self confidence my friends call it. - Edgar Allan Poe
Exactly! It's funny to hear these people talking about their VW's when we all know that F-bodies are the best cars out there...
;)
What year/engine do you have? I've got an 87 Firebird - with the crappy V6, which will become a 350 as soon as I pay off my student loans.
just like we never ran out of carrier pigeons..
and we'd never run out of buffalo,..
et cetera et cetera...
you are a genius!
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
I saw a news report where they nudged(smack in the middle of the rear bumper) a Saturn, a Hyundai and some other car into a cement pole.
Saturn got no damage(I've been rear ended twice without any costly damage).
The Hyundai repair was appraised at 1/3rd the value of the car. You could see the whole trunk crunch up.
Okay, let's think a bit here. A windmill to recharge the electric batteries to help extend charge. This windmill will also increase drag, thus forcing the car to expend more energy to keep speed. Does this seem contradictory to anyone else? Were they drunk when this proposition was put forward? Geez...
Ciao
nahtanoj
If you need torque (towing), 4 wheel drive and capacity for both cargo AND people, then an SUV (station wagon with big tires) is a great solution to your problem.
If you don't need to carry a soccer team, get a 4x4 pick-up. If you don't need to off-road, or transport a refridgerator, get a Subaru Outback. If you don't need 4x4, get a mini-van or a Volvo station wagon (The Soccer-mon cars, except they're so "Married!") The only thing that keeps those Soccer-moms in the SUV is the soccer-dad who doesn't want to have to drive something so un-cool. "Buddy, if you didn't want to look married, you shouldn't have said "I do.""
I have an SUV which totally sucks on gas and has poor acceleration. I drive it only in the New England winters (which have been pretty forgiving recently). I bought it specifically for the reasons in the first paragraph. I need the 4x4 for the winter (my daily car is 'too good' for snow), I need to accomodate more than three people, and I need to be able to pull a decent amount of weight/volume.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
I have to disagree with the claim in your sig:
Moderators: You should be browsing at -1, Newest First, Nested, not +2, Highest Scores First, Threaded
Moderators should browse -Oldest- First... otherwise, they will mark the -earlier- post as the redundant one, or promote to high scores posts that are redundant with much earlier posts, etc.
Other than that, I agree. (And they can switch to newest first after browsing the comments through once to see what's coming in, of course.)
--Parity
--Parity
'Card carrying' member of the EFF.
Probably not.
I'm 6'4", and I've only ever found two vehicles that fit me really well, both in terms of personal taste and my stature.
One of them is the Dodge fullsize pickup truck, from 1974 to 1993. These things are great, and with a Slant-6 engine and a four speed manual transmission, my old 1983 Ram used to regularily get 22-25MPG on the highway. Not bad for a 4,500 lb steel brick cutting through the air. I currently have a '76 Ram with a 400CID (6.6L) V8. It's a barrel of monkeys and happily out-accelerates Mustang 5.0s, let alone all the silly Acuras and stuff, at stoplights. But it comes with a penalty: 7 MPG. And since the compression ratio is in the 9.2:1 range, I really should run it on premium gas, but that ain't gonna happen...
The other car that fit me really well, paradoxically, was my 1985 Pontiac Fiero. I bought it because I've always liked the styling, and the fact that they're American made. And it was cheap - $350 - because it had a bad clutch. I changed the clutch and drove it for two years before giving it to a friend of mine.
It got great gas mileage, and despite the tiny size of the thing, I had gobs of headroom and legroom. While it wasn't terrifically reliable, it was a really nice little car and I miss it.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
...having to explain to all the stupid people why driving 100 mph with the windmill deployed won't get you free power.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
And since you rear ended him, your insurance will be paying for his car. Say hello to huge premiums!
Please remember, there are other people on the road besides you and your family. What am I supposed to do? Buy a semi? Hey, it's bigger than an SUV, right? Mind you, I'm not advocating that we all drive Civics, but this escallation of car size peeves me.
---- I'm going to lead you kicking and screaming, giggling and laughing into the future.
InsightCentral has an article, "Honda's Insight compared to Toyota's Prius" which compares the features, performance, emissions specs, etc. of the two cars:
You might especially be interested in one of the links on that page, "A subjective comparison from John Wayland", written by a person who has test driven both vehicles.
I'm an Insight owner, in Northern Virginia. I purchased the car in April.
:)
It is the best car I have ever owned, out of 5 cars total.
My current miles per gallon is 50, I drive primarly in Surburbia, with a little on the highway, and even less in D.C. The car has a 10.8 gallon tank, so I fill-up about every 2 weeks. Other owners have gotten over 72 MPG, depending on traffic, driving conditions, speed, etc.
The car has great pickup, I can peel-out with no problem. I can even get it to peel-out in second sometimes. My max speed is about 95, though others report the car's max speed is 133.
I am about 6 feet tall, the car is comfortable, I think it would be comfortable for taller people also.
I paid about $23k for mine, 9.5% interest financed through the dealer (I will be changing to a credit union soon).
My Insight is #453, I'm hoping to sell it as a collectable in 5 years, after my warrenty is up
More info:
Honda Insight eGroups
insightman
Insight Central
Honda
--
it's a sig, wtf?
- Something attached to the garage tethers you to home; if you're carrying the renewable power supply, you can recharge wherever. (Though a telescoping tilt-up boom on the back and a generator with a folding rotor would be a whole lot cooler.)
- The effort appears to be less about saving money and more about making a point about what is possible if we cared to do it.
Okay, I'll shut up now.--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
Gee.. I'll trust the hondas for a long time. The first one (a 1979 CVCC model) got 165K on it before it's poor battered and bruised carcass was towed off... (I was a teenager and it was my high school car - I but the crap out of it and was surprised it lasted so long).
:) just tripped 200K. I'm incredibly happy with the performance of the car (it'll jump whenever I want it too, and still asks 'how high' when I do it). It can do over 120 if I want (yeah, it takes a while, and I only did it once, at about 10000ft in altitude) and it still gets over 40 MPG. Last trip was around 45.
:) and she drives more conservatively than I.
My latest one, a 1992 LX (yeah, it's the BOFH car
My wifes honda, a 1994 DX gets well over 50 MPG, though it's not as comfy as mine
Of course, it just seems like you're a maniacal mopar gearhead and wouldn't trust anything other than a mopar part, regardless of whether it was better or not. Fanatacism.... go fig...
-- There is no sig line, only Zuul.
Finally! A car from the manufacturer that has been built to prevent people from putting those ridiculous hydraulics on to make it 'bounce'... I mean with some of the battery systems those cars carry, you wouldn't need a gas motor in the Insight.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
If it seems dumb, maybe you should read it again, slowly. It just for recharging at night, NOT WHILE DRIVING!
"In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"
-Homer Simpson
If I could only live my life with my threshold at 4...
I have to agree with you - I owned Hondas for a while, and loved them. My current car is a Neon, and it was fine until around 100k miles - then it blew out a spark plug which took about $3k for a new head, and just recently I had to replace my whole control panel PCB for about another $1.2k.
The $3k thing was kind of a freak incident, but even so a number of expensive things seem to be going or ready to go now on the Neon. I drove one Honda to about 300k miles with one engine rebuild and only minor things to fix.
For those thinking of owning a Neon, I have liked it apart from the repairs - basically if you get rid of it before it crosses 100k it should be fine.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
by "VW and Audi" i meant the singular company
i have become a big Audi person recently, so, i'm well aware i just have been posting so furiously on this subject i guess i'm not being as clear as i should be
thanks for clarifying for everyone else
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
A 3-cyl Honda engine just might get you that far.
A 4-cyl Dodge engine will barely get you half-way.
:)
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
A single, large power plant is far more efficient than thousands/millions of small engines.
You are correct, as are the others who corrected me. My post was a knee-jerk reaction to people equating "electric" with "absolutely clean and free power," which certainly isn't true. It is much better than the current situation, of course.
I'm still waiting for infra-red solar to get out of the research phase.
If you don't live where you get winter, it's not bad at all. Rain isn't really bad, either, except torrential downpours, when you're better off staying in bed anyway.
The only reason some motorcycles are loud is because the people modify them to be like that. Harley-Davidson-I-wanna-be-a-biker guys and sport-bike-I-think-I'm-on-a-racetrack boys are the big offenders here. The rest are as quiet as a car.
Oh, no doubt... is it all original engine/tranny? I thought that automatics had the 350 engine, and standards had the 305.
--
Irina Romanov
Irina Romanov
I have a Ford Festiva (aka kia Pride) from the same year. Its at 190k+. But then I did have to rebuild the transmission about 3k ago. The engine shows no signs of giving up, and the heads still barely leak oil. The main seal in the back is leaking more, but most of it is leaked from the oil pan due to a mistake on my part where I stripped the threads on the block overtightening it. I know of two (personaly seen) 200k+ festivas. Now quit complaining on a trademark.
loev,
Axel
mhm23x3, alt.fan.karl-malden.nose
Lies, damn lies, and comparison tables of numbers...
You're missing the point.
The insight isn't a pure gas powered car. It's a hybrid electric/gas car.
It has two motors. A low power deisel engine that pretty much runs at a constant speed. There is also an electric motor that kicks on when the vehicle is going uphill to provide extra power without requiring the engine to speed up.
The engine charges the batteries when it is providing excess power.
Neat concept. Still expensive though, but I'm very glad to see that a company was FINALLY brave enough to release one of these things to the general public.
I would suspect that within the next 10 years that all new cars will have this sort of technology in them (and it will be much cheaper). We're already seeing it in the ricecars =).
We are using fossil fuels much faster than we are discovering new sources of fossil fuels. And I might add, very much faster than the millions of years they take to be replenished. Fossil fuels are a nonrenewable resource, making their eventual depletion inevitable - and it will be a whole lot sooner than a lot of us would like. You are right about the fact that alternative fuels becoming mainstream not happening anytime soon - it's near impossible because there are boarmembers with interests in companies like Shell, Chevron and & Texaco sitting on the boards of directors of the major automakers ( this is known as crosspollination in the business world). Those companies have a lot to lose if automakers such as GM, and Toyota essentially snub their interests and start making rapid progress toward the use of alternative energy sources, and the mass production and marketing of low cost cars that run on alternative energy sources. They will not make that sort of progress until they absolutely have to. Until then, they will continue to fatten their pockets with a lot of our money.
** Emphasis mine.
my g/f's saturn got rear-ended at 30 mph and *slightly* dislocated the bumper and trunk hood. Maybe $50. Gotta like a car that behaves that well.
"Honey, it's not working out; I think we should make our relationship open-source."
One of the interesting aspects of this car is that it takes the wasted energy from braking and uses it to charge the batteries.
:-)
What about something like this for a laptop? Every time you push the keys, how about converting that energy back to the batteries?
Anyway, this car is damn fine. I'm still waiting for one with Heads Up Display though
BMW uses hydrogen combustion engines. By product - water! check out
Atleast this one looks like a car and not a motorcycle w/ a shell. And at 20K is cheap enough to be a 2nd car.
A motorcycle won't be any good in winter or rain though.
This depends on where you live. In So Cal you do not get snow in the winter. Also after the rain has washed the grit off the road there is nothing wrong with riding in the rain.
Also they are horribly loud.
Sure if you own a piece of crap Harley.
I have a 93 Honda VFR and ot doesn't make much more noise than a car.
How did this get rated so high?
"When will people wake up?"
Wake up to what?
I have an SUV. Why? Because I like the way it looks, I like the way it drives, I want lots of room, I want a huge trunk, I want to be able to tow a jet-ski when I finally get one, and yes, I like the power. Is there something wrong with that? If so, tough shit.
When they make a hybrid SUV, I might buy one. But I don't base my car buying decisions on what OTHER PEOPLE think I should do with my car.
If you want to buy a hybrid honda, FINE! I don't give a shit! I'll even try to remember not to crush your entire vehicle if we get in a fender bender.
-thomas
"And like that
I think they get around the emissions laws in CA because trucks get registered as commercial vehicles now. Look at the license plates of the next few trucks or SUVs that you see.
Most cars on the road have plates of the standard 1ABC234 variety. Trucks however, now have the commercial form, 1A23456.
I'm getting sick of seeing SUV's being driving around the city by "soccer mom's". I mean do you "really" need all that size/power to get to work or take the kids to the game? I think it's just a status thing really, kindof like "Hey everyone I've got a million dollars to blow on gas". Big deal, you're killing the environment while you're at it.. I'd wage that %95 of SUV's on the road today havn't even driven on a dirt road let alone on a trail or something like that. When will people wake up?
See response #287 in this thread for a refutation of that assertion, with calculations.
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
Aluminum frames are really expensive to produce... they can't be simply spot-welded like a steel frame. As production costs decrease, aluminum frames are becoming more common (Audi, Acura, etc.).
Better his wife and children than mine.
On the other hand, that's the car I bought used at 90k and drove to over 300k with only one engine rebuild and minor repairs, pretty much all of which were easy to do myself. It was a fantasic first car.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Tsk, tsk... you didn't read the article. The windmill is only for charging the batteries when the car is parked. The damn thing is about 15' tall.
-
- A.P.
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
Which is why I'd love to see this same technology in something more Accord sized...the fuel efficiency won't be anywhere NEARLY as good, but it'll beat what I get now out of my Camry.
The Second Amendment Sisters
Got Coke? Bush Does!
Finding God in a Dog
As the article mentions, Honda guarantees the batteries for 8 years....
Zipwow
I don't know which is more depressing, that 2/3 didn't care enough to vote, or that 1/2 of those that did are crazy.
...if you check out some of the owners pages. They routinely take more than 350. Kinda like most motorcycles pulling campers the manual says "The manufacturer does not recomend towing with this vehicle"
Vermifax
Vermifax
Logout
Well.. what the hell... I'm qaulified.
The car in question is my 1996 Red Honda Accord 2 door LX coupe.
Whats good:
This thing is a rock. Solid like a rock. It's starts in the morning and goes where you point it, you will be hard pressed to find a more dependable machine on the road. The quality is above average, things seem to fit correctly and tend not to break easily. This is a great car if you are a practicle person who is willing to drop a few bucks for something that's a notch better than the competition.
Whats not so good:
It's not a big car and doesn't ride like a big car, not that it rides badly, but it is a smaller car and it rides like one. It's also a bit on the small side on the interior, especially the back seat.
Overall:
This car's a Winner with a capital W. Get one.
don't get Linux! it's too hard to set up!
don't eat red meat it's bad for you!
you can't suck your own penis!
things which have recently been disproven.
what you say is also untrue.
(thought i'd insert a little crude humor, sue me
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
It wasn't Deniro that said that. His quote was "I don't walk into a place I can't walk out of". The guy who actually said your quote also did his own driving stunts. BTW, the S8 is coming to the US next year. Check Audi.com for details.
What I've started to notice is that a lot of people are getting these SUV's lowered. That is, they pay $$$$$ to buy the big overpriced peice of crap that they never intend to take off road, then they pay $$$$$ to dink the suspension so that they don't need a ladder to climb up into it, so now it looks like a cross between a minivan and an 18 wheeler.
I see lots of these at the supermarket, mid-40's housewives loading up the back with groceries. Lordy, what ever happened to station wagons?
if it ain't broke, then fix it 'till it is!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Electric cars are not the solution.
blessings,
"Only in their dreams can men truly be free 'twas always thus, and always thus will be."
--Tom Schulman
Its an old Simpsons thing. I can't remember the role it played in the episode, but the mock commercial at the end was hilareous (sp). Even though I really enjoy Suburbans.
I saw the picture of the windmill sticking out of the top of that thing and for I moment I could almost picture a DeLorean in the Honda's place... somehow I don't think that's gonna provide 1.21 gigawatts, though...
pants
... to gratuitously replace perfectly good mirrors with fuel-wasting electronics.
Interesting camera idea, however, is this really street legal? And the windmill thing is pretty cool... sure, it's not a lot of power right away, but it'll save you a bit of money on gasoline used to recharge the batteries. I'm wondering if they have instructions on how to set this up? I'm sure my neighbors'd love it...
Just a note, I thought about getting one of these to replace my daily driver as my daily commuting car is a Chrysler LHS which averages about 17mpg for me (you can get 27mpg on long highway drives, but my commute is not a long highway drive).
Then I realized that while I would get a fuzzy little feeling for the environment, I would get a much less comfortable car and not really save any money. Let's say I plan to keep the car for 100K miles.
At 17 MPG I'll use about 5900 gallons of gas, at 50 MPG (I drive fast, I won't get 70), I'll use about 2000 gallons. So this incredibly economical car which a) wouldn't seat four adults comfortably, b) hold four set of golf clubs or c) cruise comfortably at 100MPH, would save me about $6630 over the life of the car.
Maybe I'm just a bastard, but no thanks.
----------------------------
like say, low-altitude skydiving,... when will that catch on with the SUV crowd? splat splat splat,.. the sound of morons on concrete...*blissful sigh*..
check out this site, good anti-SUV info.
http://poser.4x4.org/
enjoy.
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
It is statements like that which keep this country(and this world) from searching into alternative energy/fuel methods. You're missing the point here...the "issue" is not that gas is too expensive, it is that there is only so much to go around...and using less of it will make it last longer.
This is not an "event" which will end....the only thing that will end is the worlds' oil supply, unless more moves like this towards cleaner, alternative fuel methods are made. I, for one, commend Honda for this.
-Julius X
-Julius X
remove "-whatkindofspamdoyoutakemefor-" from email to send
The article mentions the fact that at stop lights and such, the engine actually shuts off and starts back up when you shift into gear and accelerate. I believe that Ars should have gone into this with more detail. Not only is shutting off and starting hard on an engine, it eats through gasoline like a tank during the starting.
:)
When you start to crank the engine with the starter, your pumping gas *through* the engine for a second or two (or 10 depending on how hard your car starts). I say through in that I mean little if no gas gets combusted. Newer cars handle this much better by recylcing as much of this wasted fuel as possible but its' still not perfect. I would imagine that the best way (and hopefully the way that Honda does this) would be to have the electric motor roll the engine over (with no gas intake) for a few seconds to get the engine (and car) rolling and then start to pump gas into the engine where it will start to combust almost immediatly with little waste. If you don't believe what I'm saying, get in your car, drive it around the city shutting it off at every light and starting it up before you start to move. Not only will this reduce your gas milage and harm your engine in the long run, it will drain your battery and piss off the people behind you.
Another interesting point it the camshaft in this car. Almost every engine on the market today has a camshaft. An engine works by letting a gas and air mixture into a chamber (via opening and closing a vertical intake valve), compressing that mixture, combusting the mixture with a spark plug and opening and closing another valve called the exhaust valve to let the gas out. This is where we get a four-stroke engine from. The job of the camshaft is to open and close those intake and exhaust valves in the correct sequence and at the right time. Older cars had a "static" or non-variable camshaft. This was easy to engineer but wasn't the most effecient way of doing things. Due to many laws of physics and such, all engines have power curves where you trade many forces (power, speed, fuel economy, etc) for themselfs. Being able to adjust the camshaft as the engine moves through that curve helps to flatten those forces out and usually give a smoother ride. There are many different ways of achieving this variance in the camshaft, one of them being the way honda appears to have done it and other one being to get rid of the camshaft all together and use a pnuematic (sp) or there force to open and close the valves via a computer. Obviously other methods exist but those seem to be the most common right now.
Hybrid and/or electric cars have come a long way. Electric motors and engines haves increased in effeciency in the past years, new ideas and innovations continue to help the situation. I'm very happy to see what Honda is doing but I wish more car companies would begin to produce/release cars in the same idea into the main stream to produce competion. With comepetion usually comes innovation and a lower price tag.
When I get that $100,000/year job, I'll go get one of these to park next to my 1995 Saturn SC2 and my 1969 MGB GT.
Thanks for reading this comment/post, I hope it helped explain some things and maybe bring up more questions. Feel free to email me at the address I have registered with slashdot.org (remove the "nispam." from the addy) about this topic. I reserve the right to delete any annoying emails that are not on topic...
Geoff
Me, I'm waiting for the Ford (what was it's name?) - a hybrid car that doesn't look like you're driving an ultra-cramped gas-efficient cheapmobile.
Most certainly a cool vehicle. When they start making electric hybrid cars just a bit more practical, I'll be first in line to grab one. However, one thing that worries me is the bottom dollar for auto manufacturers: I'm under the impression that the only way the retail prices of these things approach reasonable dollar values is through heavy government subsidies... This is not a particularly good thing if these are to become mainstream. I'm sure there's someone out there in the flock of knowitalls that could confirm or deny this?
:-)
P.S: I'm waiting for someone to replace those batteries with flywheels...
... not in here, pal, this is a mercedes...
You survive a collision and kill everybody in the other car. Congratulations. Oh yeah, watch out not to blow up when somebody runs into you from behind.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
I talked to a toyota dealer 2 months ago about Prius, they didnt have a whole lot of info,
now they are bombarding my email... Text below is fairly recent from them:
Prius, the world's first mass-produced hybrid electric vehicle will begin
arriving in July at selected Toyota dealerships across America. This
exciting new vehicle has everyone talking. Its new hybrid engine technology
and fuel economy is less harmful to the environment and your pocket book!
With an MSRP of $20,450*, and EPA mileage estimates of 52 miles per gallon
in the city and 45 on the highway**, you'll generate savings you can brag
about.
Because Prius is in high demand and only a limited number will be available
in 2000, we've created an exclusive web site that is designed to give Prius
enthusiasts like you the chance to be among the first to own a Prius in
2000. By visiting this exclusive Purchase Request Web site between June 30th
and July 13th, you will be able to request your Prius before the general
public. On July 14th, the Web site becomes accessible to everyone.
Go to www.toyota.com/prius_sneakpreview to find out more about the Prius or
to fill out our simple Purchase Request Form. You can choose both the color
you prefer and the participating dealer of your choice. We've made the
request process an easy and unique experience.
If you want to check out all the latest news and reviews on Prius, but
aren't quite ready to reserve your own, go to the Prius web site now by
clicking on www.toyota.com/prius.
Sincerely,
Prius Marketing Team
*2000 Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price as of 04/18/2000, including
Delivery, Processing and Handling Fee. Excludes taxes, license, title and
available or regionally required equipment. The Delivery, Processing and
Handling Fee in AL, FL, GA, NC, SC, AR, LA, MS, OK and TX is $15 higher for
Trucks, Sienna and SUVs; and $30 higher for all other Toyota vehicles.
Actual dealer price may vary. Pricing, specifications, standard features and
available equipment are based on information available when this page was
produced and are subject to change without notice.
**See your Toyota dealer for details.
Also, the interior is cavernous, at least for the front two seats. I've had 6'6"+ friends in the car, and they fit just fine, w/ headroom to spare. May be worth a look if you're in the market.
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
It might be nice, but it's still rice!
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
What causes the rainforest devistation? People wouldn't cut all those trees down if there wasn't a market for them.
India has more than 1 billion people. Don't you think they should be prosperous enough to have 500,000 SUV on their highways? Do you have ANY IDEA what that would do to the encironment?
Would you like to live and commute in the Silicon Valley? Beijing? New Delhi? Mexico Coty? Breathe deep, friend!
blessings,
"Only in their dreams can men truly be free 'twas always thus, and always thus will be."
--Tom Schulman
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Try a Boxster or a 996 sometime, or maybe a Camaro or a 'Vette.
Yeah, except if that drunk idiot that runs into you is also driving a suburbin...then you'll die before they can cut all of the metal surrounding you =P.
Also, SUV's have much more mass (which translates to energy when it's moving) that must be disappated and also have a high center of mass, which means your saftey is actually more at risk in an SUV than in a moderate sized car (roll and airtime come into play in the SUV).
I can kind of see the attraction of SUV's, but I consider them more of a menance than anything else.
I'd much prefer that body with the newest Civic Si engine and the removable of the rear wheel covers. Whee!
165 on the new RR is pretty tame. The older one was light in the tail at that speed but the new one rides like it is bigger than it really is is.
Actually, gas mileage for most sport bikes (dunno about Harleys) is down into the compact car range. When I bought my RR last month the only bike I saw touting gas mileage was a BMW tourer that listed around 45mpg. You gotta sacrifice something to get a rear tire wider than most sedans.
Icebox
I just wanted to point out a few things to consider.
:P)
:P)
1. SUV's sit higher on the road allowing for better vision. Sit in a Honda Civic and see if you can get as good a view as you do in an Explorer.
2. SUV's have the tendancy to roll when turned sharply. This is also true for full size vans and many minivans. (Not that anyone would drive a minivan
3. SUV's consume a lot of gas. My Olds bravada got in the city 15mpg and 18mpg on the highway. (The Olds is a 6 banger and a fairly light SUV. This should be a best case scenario)
4. SUV's have a lot more room. It's nice to be able to fit all your friends in your car. (In my case I could fit all my friends into the Honda mentioned above
5. According to a recent 20/20 special on SUV crash tests, less than half the SUV's tested, pass the various tests. (Side impact*, front impact, and angled impact) The few that passed, passed with flying colors. (The Olds Bravada being one of them) However, the others failed because of rolling over issues (Side impact only)
6. SUV's are fun to drive. (Not as much fun as a 300ZX) I take mine 4 wheeling whenever I can and it's a lot of fun.
7. In accidents, SUV drivers tend to survive while the other driver tends to not fair nearly as well.
8. SUV's are more expensive to insure. This is due to the fatalities that SUV's are known to cause and the roll over factor.
*Note the side impact test is the one that determined that SUV's in general have a tendancy to roll.
I hoped this has helped. Most of the facts listed here come from an actuary friend of mine. (For those who don't know what an actuary does, they come up with all the goofy statistics used to determine how much insurance you have to pay for various things.)
Your sports car cost more to insure because it is a sports car.
The primary cost of insurance is not based on how safe it is for your ego-centric self, it is based on liability for harm to others in an accident. Yes, most collision are not into brick walls they are into other people!
Get your head out off your ass. Look at other people's posts. Nobody is saying that SUVs fare better into crashes into brick walls (although, they probably would as they would likely go through it with less crumpling than a car).
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I am the dot in slashdot.org
How long before we see a 6" tailpipe tip?
Or a "Powered By Honda" sticker across the winshield.
Gimme a break. The only way a "Powered By Honda" sticker would impress me is if the guy had earned the right to put it onto a Toyota. But even then, there are far more interesting engine swaps to waste your time with.
Powered by Honda? Yeah. So's my lawnmower.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Whoa there, sparky... the Insight isn't JUST an electric car; you _don't_ plug it in - it uses your braking power and some of the revolutions of the gas engine to charge itself. A car that can get up to 70 MPG without being plugged in is pretty damn good if you ask me. Less polution all around.
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"There's no swimming in the heavy water, no playing in the acid rain.
"To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!"
There are millions of Big Rigs out there that do far more damage in accidents and burn far more fuel than SUV's... there are thousands of industrial processes that use more fuel every second than my SUV burns in a year.. I find it hard to believe that Iraq, china and india have neuclear weapons and ANYONE gives a RATS ASS what I'm driving... it's time to grow up a little and put shit in perspective!
YouTube & Google Video -> podcast http://castcluster.blogspot.com/
20,000. Now, some people make a lot of money and don't think that's expensive for the car, but 90% of people do think that's rather steep for a 2 seater non-sports car.
While I wouldn't mind having one, most people see that 20,000 outlay right up front (or in LOWLOWLOW monthy payments!), and shreik. They don't think they could possibly be spending that much on gas.
Of course, these people are generally not good at math.
But when you can buy a Neon, which isn't bad fuel efficiency wise or another car for under 10 grand (without the options), or a Kia (parts? Who needs parts for cars? We just throw them away now) for $8995, it's kinda pointless.
At least, that's what some would say.
Then again, the SUV's are all the rage now. So, there's no accounting for taste. (Silly me, tho, I want a Hummer so I can drive straight to work, avoid traffic, avoid roads!)
Okay, bye.
Dan
See if you can get THAT going at HIGH SPEED!
Good. Public transit. So I can sit in a subway train full of unwashed derelicts and third-world refugees.
Ya know, the ideas that tree-huggers have are very short sighted. I'm all for saving the planet, sure. But I'm also for enjoying my life.
I work hard so that I can drive. And I don't expect to be rewarded for my efforts by having to interface with the masses on a daily basis. I pay 72.5 cents per liter to drive my gas-guzzling 1976 Dodge Ram so that I don't have to share my life with people I don't want to meet.
So that I won't again get lice from the person sitting next to me on the subway.
And I drive my truck in particular because I like it. Period. And guess what? It gets 7 miles per gallon.
The shortsightedness comes from the fact that when I no longer make enough money to be able to drive to work every day, I will move. Period. I'll take my many skills and my good work ethic, and I will pick up and move to the United States, where I shall pursue citizenship and sever all my ties with Canada. And I'll leave Canada with its burgeoning population of highly trained and highly literate convenience store clerks.
The brain drain will continue and Canada's standard of living will drop until all the tree-hugging idiots who can't understand the basic laws of supply and demand back off and let commerce take its place.
If OPEC keeps fuel prices high, there will be no place that I can move to escape being raped at the pumps. But so long as fuel prices remain artifically high in Canada, I'll continue to have an alternative which I can exercise at any time.
So... are you an American employer seeking a reliable, loyal and hard working computer geek with experience in other fields including broadcasting, professional audio and video, marine radar and engine management systems and analog circuit design? E-mail me for a resume.
GetMeAGreenCard@NO-SPAM.yahoo.com
I hope your offspring get killed in a collision with a transfer truck, you ignorant son-of-a-bitch. Maybe you should go buy one of those. And think about the people who YOU might kill in your need for bigger and heavier SUV'sIn celebration of gas guzzlers and noxious pollutants, on my way to the office in the morning, I'll disconnect a couple of the spark plug leads on my 6.6L V8 engine. I'll toast you, xtal, with my coffee cup as I drive across Toronto on the 401, listening to the Howard Stern Radio Show, and filling the air with unburnt hydrocarbons as my massive and temporarily detuned engine chugs me to work.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
If OPEC keeps fuel prices high
OPEC isn't keeping fuel prices high, it is the gas companies here in the US. They have realized that they can charge extreme amounts of money for gas, and so they do. Right now there is an excess of oil in the US, there is no shortage that would cause higher prices.
OPEC is not charging large amounts for oil because they don't want to piss off their customers. I garentee that when OPEC drops their prices somemore this summer that we will see only a minor drop in price at the pumps and only for a short period of time.
Right now the gas companies are testing the waters, they want to see how much they can charge for maximal profit. So long as people continue to buy gas no matter how much they charge they will continue to increase.
In the US, if the price increases then we see it at the pump. If the price increases in Canada, the government can remove some of the excess taxes that they have placed on gas for social programs keeping the price relatively fixed.
Disclamer - Opinion of Person
But I'm torn between this and the Toyota Primus (prius? Something like that). Anyone got any good reviews of that one for comparison?
-- IANAEG - I am not an elder god.
blessings,
"Only in their dreams can men truly be free 'twas always thus, and always thus will be."
--Tom Schulman
Just start your trip at the top of a hill. Push the car down it, wind is built up, generator kicks in, and generated electricity powers the car. No need for stored energy! Streamline the car and you can get hundreds of miles! Hmmm, now how to get the car back up the hill??? Didn't Lisa on the Simpsons have some type of generator that could be adapted for this?
(somebody needs to tell Ars that tiny white text on a black background is unreadable)
The Insight's single body aluminum frame is 47 percent lighter than a comparable steel body yet it has better bending and torsional rigidity.
So why doesn't everyone use it? No really, I'm curious.
If "Chris" got in an accident, I wonder what the insurance company (or the judge) will think of his side-mirror-cams.
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Christ ... why don't we just combine Slashdot and ArsTechnica, since both sites pimp each other so often. Doesn't damn near everyone who reads Slashdot read ArsTechnica too? Don't you guys have *real* news to report on, rather than just scouring other news sites and reporting on what they've already posted?
Geez.
Just in case anyone hadn't heard about it, another innovative car that should be out within a decade or so is the M400 skycar.
-Phredrick Dobbs
Emperor of the Universe
Grand and High Protector of Everything
-Phredrick Dobbs
Emperor of the Universe
Grand and High Protector of Everything
That said, it's not necessarily true that driving with the genny in place would kill you. If you were going into a strong enough wind, and weren't going too fast, you could actually get more power out of the genny than it takes to push the car and overcome the drag of the turbine. This works pretty well up to about 2x the wind speed; at 3x wind speed, you're well into the region of diminishing returns. But being able to cruise at 40 MPH all day into the teeth of a 20 MPH wind would be cool.
For those interested in the math, the power available from a stationary wind turbine is a maximum of 0.295 * area * density * airspeed^3; the best figure of merit is 29.5% instead of 50% because you can't get all the kinetic energy from the incoming air because then it stops dead and can't make way for more airflow. You can actually do better when you're moving into the wind because you leave the spent air behind. Moving directly upwind at 2x the wind speed, if you stopped the air dead with respect to the ground you'd get 2/3 of the air flowing through your turbine and 5/9 of its kinetic energy with respect to the car, for a net power of 5/27 * area * density * airspeed^3. The drag on the turbine is equal to the mass-flow times the speed difference of the air flowing through it, or 2/9 * area * density * airspeed^2. Multiply this by your ground speed (2/3 airspeed) and you get 4/27 * area * density * airspeed^3. This leaves you about 25% extra for losses. You could do better by not slowing the air down quite so much, because the energy is proportional to the difference of speed-squared while the momentum (and thus drag) is directly proportional to the difference in speed; you can improve your efficiency by "skimming the cream".
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
What happens when a gas tank ruptures? or propane? or compressed natural gas?
You are wrong wrong wrong. The large cylindrical propane tanks can take a severe beating. I saw a station wagon with a propane tank(full) under the rear, with a V8 engine (older model obviously) dropped from a great height onto its back (the tank, full) and the engine block went throught the entire car, and impacted the propane tank(full), and it did not rupture.
I beleive I will coin the term "hydrogen FUD" now.
Lars -
Yeah, the lupo is great if you live outside the US. Here in California, CARB wouldn't touch a Lupo with a 10ft pole.
Honda makes cars that are wonderful trade-offs between performance and technology (I love my del Sol -- (0-60 in under 7 sec and 30+ mpg, (w/Jackson Racing Supercharger, heh heh))). You may not like the way they look, but to deny that they have good engineers is sheer stupidity. Besides, someone's gotta try it.
just my blog and pix
For those not familiar with the idea of what Rice is all about, here's the Riceboy Page.
And while bashing our fellow motorists, why not get in a few digs at the upscale SUV driver, at the Ultimate Sports Utility Poseur Page.
Enjoy, the Devil made me do it!
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
I drive a
SUV
car
pickup truck
spoorts car
motorcycle
bicycle
tank
I don't drive
-coyo
--------------------------------------------------
The cost of delivery is what makes power plants less efficient. Sure, they can produce power very efficiently, but there is so much loss in the power grid that I'd doubt it's as good as an engine in the end.
A couple of days ago, I posted a comment to the AskSlashdot question "Why are we still using gasoline", about battery stations. Some idiot replied something about "electric cars don't exactly use D cells, do they?".
From the Ars article on the Honda Insight:
Beneath the control units is a pack of 120 NiMH D cells (shown separately in the right hand picture)
The Hummer is not all its cracked up to be. In my 4 wheeling club one of the guys owns a hummer. It's gotten stuck in the mud 3 times now. Believe me when I tell you it takes 3 cars to pull that fat bastard out of the mud. The reason it gets stuck is it has a high axel ratio, its too f*cking heavy, in this particular hummer's tires aren't designed for offroading. Just about the only thing the hummer has on it's side is its ground clearance.
Why not have solar panel on the car so it will recharge when you park it?
Much sweeter than the alternatives....
The SUVs are bigger (more room to deform before passengers are affected) and stronger (more steel in the frame) and are therefore safer.
Most SUVs (the bigger ones) are built on truck frames, which means they don't compress. Truck design has stopped evolving sometime around the 50s. Look under your SUV. What kind of suspension do you see? Does that level of technology inspire any feeling of security?
Fact is SUVs are not any safer because they are bigger. They don't compress, there's no crumple zone. Your body takes all the force of the collision. It doesn't matter how much room there is to compress before passengers get squished because there's nothing that compresses in an SUV.
So while you won't feel as much impact when trampling on a little Insight, if your SUV rams into another SUV or an 18 wheeler or a solid object, you're shit out of luck.
"Hot lesbian witches! It's fucking genius!"
It doesn't matter if they are apples or oranges. The Insight is a cramped, strangely designed vehicle that has unique (read: hard to fix or find parts for) technology.
The TDI VW's are very common, easy to fix and fuel, carry a ton more cargo, and more passengers.
Most importantly, the Insight, and the similar Toyota are sold at a loss by their manufacturers, which from a business point of view translates into their being on the short list of ditchable products when things get tight.
The TDI cars are profitable, and are in high demand. Even more so in Europe, where diesel cars are much more common.
In fact, a European TDI VW, the Lupo, gets nearly 100mpg, with a normal diesel engine, and makes a proffit for the company.
Which do you think is the future?
Ride a motorcycle. I bought my Kawasaki Concours in 1994 for $5000.
I regularly get 50 MPG in city+freeway driving, and I can get 0-60 in under 4 seconds. A good 0-60 time for a car is more in line with my 0-100 time.
The problem with you cagers isn't that your cages are inefficient, it's that you're hauling around too damn much metal, glass and other stuff. You need less vehicle, not less power.
-coyo
--------------------------------------------------
I'm glad to see that some car companies are finally producing cars that aren't wasting fuel. Apparently we're at the lowest average fuel effeciency in over 15 years (due mostly to a growing demand for SUVs). It's about time that more fuel efficient (and nicely designed) cars are coming onto the market.
~ "When I'm of that age I'm just going to live up a tree."
What makes the Honda attractive is it uses technology to address the issue of economy and pollution. But the problem of expensive fuel and of pollution is overpopulation. Achieving a clean environment will always be a moving target... laws will continue to exact cleaner and cleaner burning automobiles. But nobody understands that this world is overpopulated. We don't need expensive econo cars like the Honda, we need zero population growth now.
blessings,
"Only in their dreams can men truly be free 'twas always thus, and always thus will be."
--Tom Schulman
don't ya think yer being a teensie weensie bit overdramatic? i'll admit this forum is often full of propaganda but give it a rest. you sound like a faith healer.
i demand the demons that plague this web to be GONE! BACK SATAN! BE GONE!
-zara-
Car and driver did a road test of the Insight here. One of the things they said is that the seats are not the comfortable for long trips.
I have a Camry and Corolla and I'm very happy with them (the Camry is an '87 and still runs fine). So I'm especially interested in the Prius, being from Toyota.
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"with gas prices continuing up, it's definitely starting to look a bit more attractive."
:(
Someone already mentioned gas prices are on there way down in the short term. I'd also like to add that in the long term, gas prices are expected to plummet! Why? So many new oil reserves have been discovered in the recent because of various new technologies that supply will almost certainly increase.
So expect prices to fall. Unfortunately for those of us looking for alternative fuels to becomse mainstream, it won't be happening anytime soon
Hybrid vehicles get to drive in the carpool lane in L.A. now. If you drive to work by yourself in L.A., you'll realise that this alone could save you an hour a day. Depending on how much you get paid this could pay for itself in a matter of months.
sigs are a waste of space
Are you misinterpreting what I stated or are you stating another side effect of dealing with SUV's?
I meant to state that if your in the SUV you can see things a lot better.
If you were adding to the list, then I get your point. In fact my Olds Bravada (being a soccer mom SUV) has a hard time seeing past an excursion/suburban/navagator or any "large" SUV.
You're right, we will never run out of oil, only cheap oil. The environmental problem is that by taking stuff out of the ground and putting it in the sky, we are changing the earth's climate. That is dangerous, because we depend on a stable climate to grow our crops and keep ourselves fed. Decades from now our children will curse us for choosing temporary convenience over keeping the earth habitable if we don't get our act together.
A single, large power plant is far more efficient than thousands/millions of small engines.
Dipshit.
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I am the dot in slashdot.org
I drive a Nissan 240sx, and it sits pretty low to the ground. However, in my experience the Explorers tend to pull out way past the stop line, blocking my view of traffic when trying to turn on a red light. That's much safer that way.
--- http://foo.ca
Personally, I think Saudi Arabia is driving the price as high as they can without triggering effects of increased interest/research into alternative energy technologies. The politics in OPEC are interesting because hitting that price point is the goal of all of the members. IMHO, that's why you'll see Saudi Arabia leading increasing production while countries like Venezuela opposing it. (Because V. is at capacity production and can maximize short term profit by not having prices lowered)
Ahhh... armchair analysis BS, nothing quite like it.
Just posted up on Yahoo...
WWJD -- What Would Jimi Do?
(Smash amp, burn guitar, take home the groupies)
I bet higher-resistance keyboards would increase the risk of developing arthritic pain or carpel tunnel syndrome. I wouldn't recommend it.
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Stupid people suck.
In my town all the power comes from the hydroelectric dam.
The problems are really with people so unconcerned that the only reason they'd switch to electric cars is the rising fuel cost caused by the impending energy crunch. Those same people are of course not concerned enough to switch to sensible forms of power.
Unfortunately that's still most ppl (at least in the US anyway)
The same people who drive SUVs, also don't give a shit whether their power comes from hydro or gas or even nuke, as long as it keeps rolling in.
Ever get the impression that your life would make a good sitcom?
Ever follow this to its logical conclusion: that your life is a sitcom?
"I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
Someone ran into the back of my 96 Saturn at about 10mph at a stop light and it did nothing but minor abrasions on the surface of my rear bumper, which were so minor they've been weathered away since.
Please consider making an automatic monthly recurring donation to the EFF
People like the feeling of power their SUV's size and height gives. Period.
Sounds like "People" have self-esteem problems.
Wah!
seems you stole most of your material. *sigh*
i said 35 mph because once you get over 45 mph it's a diceroll whether you live or not. (don't believe me? talk to some people who do crash test research.. i have.)
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
not necessarily correct. The new diesel technology works fine. The VW TDI obtains 50+MPG. I'm hoping that the low sulfer fuel will raise that. It is still a fact that todays diesel engines (TD) are more efficient and cleaner than the gassers.
You are correct sir, but i have to release steam somplace, so why not aim it towards honda? I am not denying they are well engineered or made cars, i just hate the fact that they are dime-a-dozen. I see so many of those ugly ass cars on the road everyday (some of them are good looking but, like the Newer Prelude...). Just because everyone has something does not make it good, many times the public in general is wrong, just because somethig sells good does not make it good. Look at the Ford Taurus, best selling car in the US for years but it was pretty s***ty. In the great words or 2-Pac, "everywhere, i see the same ho-o-o"
If you read the article, it states that the windmill is only used when the car isn't moving.
As a counterpoint to your concern about the lighter construction having less strength, keep in mind a lighter car will not inflict as much damage on itself and/or the car of the other crash victim due to it's lower mass.
Please consider making an automatic monthly recurring donation to the EFF
Because it isn't true. There have been finds of stupendous quantities of natural gas locked up in methane hydrates on the continental shelves, but not oil. If there had been finds of economically-recoverable oil anything like what you assert, OPEC would be pumping like mad to keep people from investing in new wells instead of cutting back to grab the bucks.
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
I was skeptical when I first saw the commercial jsut the other day- This car looks absolutely awesome. For someome who a) Wants to help the environment but doesn't want to act like a maniac to do so and B) hates the current gas prices, this car is great. Its more practical then electric cars, and cleaner the gas powered. But then again, they must have mentioned that in the article, right? I can't help but drool all over the idea of owning one of these.
Yes...but the engine is still more efficient. I pay less for my fuel and get more out of it. My engine never needs tune ups, goes 10,000 miles between oil changes...need I go on.
People in the US seem to refuse to see this.
Even if we run the numbers with the increased power in the diesel stroke, I would bet that the TDI is more efficient than any gassoline powered engine.
You burn clean, but you burn a lot of a resource we only have another 20-40 years left of.
This is the usual environmentalist bunk. (I am for a clean environment, but consider myself a conservationist rather than an environmentalist - the difference is that the former places a value on truth, while the latter is simply ideologically driven.)
The simple fact is that we've gotten *much* better at finding oil in the past few years. I can't find the citation right now ot I'd link to it, but I read somewhere recently that we found more oil in the past decade than we knew existed previously. Given what I've seen happening in the exploration business, I don't find that hard to believe at all. Not to mention that directional drilling, MWD, etc. are busily making all that oil more accessible than it's ever been before.
We may run out someday, but it will be a very long time. taht's very good, because it should give us enough time to fix some of the technological problems that make the alternatives so uneconomical. One thing that should resonate with the crowd here: Like Linux, the important thing about internal combustion engine technology isn't its current state, but the fact that it's improving far faster than anything else out there...
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
"again, Excursion vs. Festiva, yes the 3 ton car is going to send the Festiva flying into next week.
but why is it a good thing that the Festiva driver dies and the Excursion driver lives? just because you are the Excursion driver? no, you are both equally worthless, and neither one of you has a right to live beyond the other's."
You are confusing two totally different concepts.
1) Whether or not I will survive
2) Whether or not I should survive
All we are talking about here is #1. So let's leave "why should you live instead of the Festiva driver" out of it.
Now, consider a world where EVERYONE (except me) drives a Festiva. I go to the car dealership find that I have two choices: A Festiva and an SUV. If I buy the Festiva, my chances of dying are just like everyone else's. But if I buy an SUV, my chances of dying are 1/10 that. Therefore, the SUV is safer for me.
(As a sidenote about logic: Logic is a system of rules you apply to facts to reach conclusions. You have not used logic in your posts. You haven't even employed facts. You have made assertions. Apparently that is enough to get you modded as "insightful" on Slashdot, but it won't convince me.)
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I know, as soon as I put that there I wish I could have deleted it. The page was really slow loading so... you know.
O.K., cut the silly Austin Powers bit.
What I really want to know is why so many people feel that they have the right, the duty, to dictate how other people live their lives. America was founded on the basis of personal freedom. America was founded by people who were escaping governments and peoples trying to decree what they felt were personal decisions.
The majority of the constitution can be boiled down to a simple statement: "You are free to live your life as you choose, so long as you do not impinge on the ability of others to do the same."
Wow, simple, basic, easy to understand. Why is this sentiment so hard to grasp and so painful for millions of people? I have never dictated how you should live your life, what you should worship, or what you should read. How you think and how you feel are your own problems.
Confused in Kalifornia...
-- I need more coffee. It's Monday. There is no such thing as enough coffee on a Monday.
I'd wait for a little more competition between car manufacturers - get a few more machines into the mix and lower prices. By the way, does anyone else think a hybrid version of the new VW Beetle would rock?
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
I am glad to that hybrid cars are now being pushed by some auto companies I still waiting out the car powered by hydrogen.
Those arnt *REAL* SUVs, only a Hummer is a TRUE SUV ;)
;)
see if you can get THAT to roll in a high speed turn
Fear the government that fears your guns. Fear the government that fears your computers. Remove them from my email.
I like the fuel economy, but how does it rate when it comes to safety and maintainance?
Googled on "Insight crash test" and got to Edmunds, which shows "good" rates for two of the six, but nothing on the other four:
http://www.edmunds.com/edweb/crashtest/honda.ht
Obviously, "rear occupant" does not apply, but that leaves three to go still.
Not to mention that frontal offset crashes tend to be harsher on occupants than "pure" head on collisions.
Since this is a passanger car, and not a truck, or box-on-a-truck SUV, I assume that it MUST have crashtested above some decent standards...
... but that ultra-light construction gives me the willies... and a PLASTIC gas tank *shudder*. I certianly don't care for those ford/chevy monsterstrousities like suburbans and excursions that plague the roads. But I fell better having a LITTLE more mass between me and the world. I think my Subaru is a very good compromise (if they ever make a hybrid Forester, I'll be in line on day one).
Thoughts?
Links to more extensive info in insight crash tests?
john
Resistance is NOT futile!!!
Haiku:
I am not a drone.
Remove the collective if
Imagine all the people...
It amazes me how people constantly overlook the VW/Audi TDI engine.
All the other reviews of the insight that I have read, state that it doens't actually acheieve the stated gas mielage figures that are quited. Those only occur under ideal contitions (ie. crusing on the highway without accellerating, never going up a hill, etc...)
The VW/Audi TDI (Turbocharged Direct Injection) engine achieves a REAL 50+MPG mixed driving. On my last take in my Jetta TDI, I achieved 53MPG. This car has more torque than the insight. Max Torwue 155ft/lbs reached at 1900 RPMs. (Thanks to the wastegate turbo system!) (compared to 93ft/lbs for the insight at 2000rpms)
And look at horsepower on the insight. "73 HP @ 5700" That's pittiful. To get max power you have to rev the engine pretty high to get max acceleration. While I'll admit that the TDI only achieves 90HP, it does so at a much lower RPM figure. Allowing for an optimal shift point below 3000 RPMs
Now...on to body construction. The insight is aluminum. I took a good look at one when the 2000 car show came through. and the construction just feels cheep! I honestly wouldn't feel safe in it. My Jetta TDI on the other hand feel sa lot safer and has more safety features.
Price. The insight MSRP quoted in this reviwe $20,080 i believe. A simillary equiped jetta TDI (which seats 2 more and has much more trunk space, goes for less than $19,000. And very nicely quipted at about $20,850
one last thing. maybe you know, maybe you didn't. The TDI runs on diesel. It is a virtually smokeless diesel engine. (meaning you get a little smoke on startup on a VERY cold day). There is no nasty smeel (Despite popular opinion). Diesel is cheaper! This engine is quiter than any other 4cylinder engine that I've ever driven. and has quite a lot of get-up and go.
All I can say is, test drive a Gold/Jetta/Beetle TDI, test drive an insight...then let me know which one you like better.
Visit tdiclub.com to hear form other TDI owners
Quoting from article:
Anyone out there old enough to remember the Civic CVCC (1973)? The CVCC or Compound Vortex Controlled Combustion system burned fuel so completely that it passed California's emission standards without a catalytic converter.Sure, CVCC was great. That extra valve, the separate swirly-port combustion chamber. It was a great idea, and I've gotta say that Honda's designers had a great concept.
Too bad they carboned up before the warranty period was up due to defective carburetor float design.
Too bad Honda's manufacturing at the time was such that all the bores on a given block were often of different sizes and even on different centers.
Too bad the early Civics and Preludes into which these motors were fitted had myriad safety deficiencies, not limited to brakes that could be activated by a passenger pressing a foot too hard on the passenger side firewall.
Too bad the steel rotted out fast enough to make people suspect the cars were made of recycled bedframes.
Too bad I've rebuilt 6 different Honda engines and not yet found one that I like even remotely as much as the clanky old 2.2L engine in K-Cars.
Too bad I'll never trust another Honda product again.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
there are FAR fewer Festivas out there than SUVs right now. they get into fatal accidents more often than the Festivas too.
so, logically, statistically, you aren't any safer.
i did apply logic, to reach the conclusions i gave,.. i just didn't feel like spelling out the whole process, since (obviously) you're just going to ridicule it and be jealous of my good karma
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
The wind could supply additional energy.
The reason that gas prices are as high as they are today is government. I live in New York, where gas is now ~ $1.60 per gallon. Diesel has been ~$1.40 per gallon since February. Why is that? The reason is simple. State regulators across the US now require over 14 different mixtures of gas to be produced. California, New York, and Massachusetts use one type of gas; the midwest puts corn alcohol in theirs; and the Feds have recently mandated the addition of cancer-causing MTBE into our gasoline. The result? Large oil refineries (there are only a couple dozen) are forced to run multiple, smaller production batches. The pricing on these smaller batches is far more susceptible to market flucuations; because retooling and setup time for an oil refinery is quite expensive and time-consuming. Instead of blaming the arabs, or greedy oil companies, point your finger at the various governments of the USA. The state of new york and the local county make like $0.55 on a gallon of gas, the feds make $0.22. The store makes $0.16 and the oil co $0.25. Electric cars are a joke, instead of burning gas in a car, you are burning coal or lp gas in an overloaded power plant (since nobody wants new plants near their house), losing 25% of the energy in the power lines and pumping them into expensive, heavy and dangerous batteries. We should be focused on improving our current engines and developing things like fuel cells and hydrogen engines. And when the oil actually starts running out, we will. Needed to rant.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
you're also only safer if you're some kind of demolition driver who goes around ramming into festivas and civics,..
but, y'know, given your posts, i could see that.
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
No, you are in fact misguided. You've posted several times related to this story and it's obvious that you're beating a VW drum. That's okay (I own a 2000 GTI GLX) but you are not on the ball here. The TDI engines sold in this country are 90 HP units that are indiscriminate in their use of diesel. The European TDI is spec'd at 110 HP I believe. These gains are not made in quality of fuel alone. Trust me, there are a lot of diesel technologies that have not been adapted to the U.S. market due to the poor quality of American diesel.
Newer, direct injection diesels (which the U.S. market TDI is not) will generally not run on American diesel. American TDI engines also do not burn as clean and hence VW is actually ceasing to sell the American TDI in some markets (such as California) where their sale counts against manufacturer's average emissions statistics disproportionately.
The American TDI is okay but advanced it is not.
ozone pilot
I'd never own one of these underpowered, undersized tincan deathtraps. Anything that can't get up to at least 60 by the end of one of the short onramps on my local freeway shouldn't be allowed on the road. Having a semi doing 65 run you down when you are trying to merge at 40 is not a good thing.
If gas gets too expensive (like it is in europe) I will build my own still and start making alcohol. I can quite easily modify (re-jetting and adjusting carburators) at least two of my vehicles to run on pure alcohol. If gas gets much over $3 a gallon then pure alcohol is cheaper than petroleum, and its even more emissions friendly (not that I care that much).
Two^h^h^three more uses for the windmill:
- It could be attached to a "coasting sensor" (e.g. you are going downhill), and it would pop up and start working;
- In addition to the brake-operated battery charger, the windmill could pop up when you apply the brakes.
- If it was big enough (i.e. Dutch windmill size), it could be an antitheft device. Who would want to try to steal your car if they had to time their entry between the blades. (Could also be a dog-pee deterrent.)
I drive a gas guzzler (26 mpg) that is a lot of fun to drive. I have a 1994 Camaro SS and I love the beast.
26? Gas guzzler? Sheesh. My Chevelle only gets 8 to 10 mpg. Heck, my mostly stock S10 pickup only gets about 20.
Why are gas prices going up? We're using gas like crazy. Period.
Actually, its because oil companies are greedy bastards. World crude oil prices haven't gone up nearly enough to account for the prices they are charging. In europe they have it far worse than we do because their oil companies are even more greedy and corrupt than those over here in the US, plus their taxes are even more obscene than ours are.
It's not a real car, after all. "Sounds like... go-cart.. two syllables..."
I have a 98 Turbo-Diesel Jetta.
It has TDI direct injection and is pretty good size..
Its got good speed and decent pick up and emits very very low levels of CO2 and other greenhouse gases.. The engine is completely computer controlled (I was trying to figure out what all those wires were for as diesels have no spark plugs).. There is no black soot like the diesels of yesteryear.
Also to keep in mind is diesel is more environmentally friendly to refine than gas.
I only get 45 mpg avg (city/highway), but I think the jetta is bigger than the honda.
I won't say my car is cleaner than a honda, but its better than a normal "car" or "SUV" . It isn't even technically "cooler", but most people who ride in it don't even know its a diesel.
I'm very happy with it. only 17k.$
And your point is? That you're bitter and can't move on?
Look one of my best friends was killed crossing a street with a go light for him on the croswalk when an asswipe in an acura decided to take a right on red without stoping! My friend was on a bike and got thrown through the a-holes winshield.. and the bastard that did it kept driving. (The cops cought him and he went to jail for 3 years.. yes ONLY 3 years for vehicular man slaughter.. he's out there driving somewhere as we speak )
That doesn't mean that everyone driving an Acura is an asshole? does it!? It doesn't mean that I have the right to go off an 'cause hundreads of dollars damage to peoples cars ( who most likely are good drivers and don't intend to hurt anyone ). or does it? Think about what your saying. Jackasses drive a lot of different cars. You just happaned to get hit by a moron in an SUV. Next time it might be an Acura!
-Ex-Nt-User
BTW: I own a Saturn for daily driving and A Chevy Tahoe when I go in the mountains. I wouldn't need the Tahoe if it wasn't for the fact that the Saturn doesn't work to well in foot deep snow or offroad trails.
Actually, I thought it was a pretty fair comparison. Insight Central claims to be an independent site, and it sounds like they're fans of hybrid technology in general, rather than Honda boosters. In the conclusion the reviewer never says that "X is better". Take a look at the quote below, in which he says he's glad that both cars exist.
The link is /.'ed, so I can't tell what exactly is being done with the windmill, but if you drive with the windmill in place, it'll eat your gas for lunch.
--
Having said that, I can't complain about high gas prices. I contribute horribly to the problem of pollution and energy use.
Why are gas prices going up? We're using gas like crazy. Period. SUV drivers and I have no right to complain about high gas prices.
-coyo
--------------------------------------------------
What most reviewers fail to mention, or at least gloss over, is that this car has a 350 pound limit on total amount of passengers + cargo. Maybe that's sufficient for a commuter's car, which only carries one person, two people on a grocery shopping trip routinely breaks this weight limit.
I'm not soccer mom, but will be a soccer dad in about 5-8 years. My reason for having an SUV is simple: I will survive a collision. I drive safely, so odds are some drunk idiot is going to crash into me. If they do, I intend to win the battle. As far as I'm concerned, the heavier the better.
If you want to drive your featherweight deathbox, be my guest, but do me a favor and keep your judgements to yourself. It's called "freedom".
And by the way, it does not "kill the environment". Today's cars burn extremely.
--
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
I dunno about all you guys but I want a SUV so I can feel safer when authoring my /. posts while carpooling the kids.
cat
a 6,000 lbs. vehicle with 200 horsepower and 200 ft/lbs of torque does not have anything resembling performance.
you want a car that's fun to drive, get a VW Jetta VR6, or an Audi S4.
SUVs also have a tendancy to roll over during the truly fun maneuvres.
the things we are referring to (and i am most DEFINITELY not talking about *true* off-roading vehicles) are not 'fun to drive' they are big, lumbering menaces.
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
I drive a '71 SIIA Land Rover - I don't need no stinkin' Wind Mill to charge my battery. I got a hand crank.
I'd rather have someone respond than be modded up.
after all this time we are FINALLY beginning to trek away from gas powered vehicles. christ! what took so long? as if there isn't enough crap in the air .... we are still pumping carbon-monoxide in exponential amounts. humanity, the tumor of the earth!
The whole reason for Honda putting the cover over the back wheels is so there would be less drag. With this windmill it seams like it would be causing more harm then good because of wind resistance. Just a thought.
Here are some links to Australian technology in the same field
Eco-mmodore a full size standard sedan, which is normally powered by a 3.8l V6 or 5.7l V8, using australian developed hybrid technology.
aXcessAustralia prototype - a consortium of australian auto component manufacturers have built a prototype car using the same technology, developed by the CSIRO.
MrCreosote Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump! "You're right! There isn't enough room to swing a cat in here!"
well since they have a grand total of 80 horsepower (and weigh in excess of 2 tons), 'high speed' is not really an option (at least, not in a stock hummer.)
i'm not putting down hummers, mind you, they are amazing vehicles for their intended purpose.. they put out 800 ft/lbs. of torque. but, most people seem to think they are some kind of uber-car, and they aren't
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
Actually, when behaving on the highway, my wifes 88 Porsche 944 Turbo gets 30mpg. That's over 600 miles per tank (21 gallon tank). It's also alot more fun than any other car I've driven. :)
(Granted, when having lots of fun, I've had it down to 18Mpg.)
They're actually cheaper than you might think.. I've seen 87 944 turbos for under 10 grand.
Granted, noone will read this, as it's buried way down...
I read the article and it looked really neat, but I just wish that they would come out with an automatic transmission version. I know that there's sort of this big macho thing where if I can't drive a stick shift I'm some how less of a man, but I think automatic trans is a lot more conveniant... like when you're trying to change a cd or drink something and you don't have a third hand to change gears.
So quick with fear you tiny fools!
Then there's my 84 Plymouth Gran Fury (last of the great American cars) which weights (unloaded) about 5000 pounds. Anyhoo it gets on the highway about 20-25 miles per gallon - its the squarest car in the world, so I'm not getting this whole drag coefficent thingy. It also over 300,000 miles on it, and a 5.2 liter 318 2bbl mopar V8 - and its still getting better milage then most SUV's/newer sports cars. And it will do a quarter mile in less then 10 seconds.
the link http://www.vwvortex.com/news/07_00/07_03/index.htm l
I have a VW TDI Jetta and love it. ITs clean quiet and peppy (I can't call it fast since I had a GTI before the diesel)
There's been a lot of mention of diesel engine technology and how it compares to hybrid gas/electrics. But, scanning the threads quickly, nobody really has explained the PRIMARY reason why diesel has not been better embraced here in the U.S.
The primary reason is that in order for the new generation of diesels to run properly, the direct injection types that are common in Europe and such, diesel fuel needs to have a low sulphur content. In Europe, it's mandated. However in the U.S., for years, refiners have been allowed to produce poor quality diesel fuel. Engine manufacturers in turn won't dare attempt to sell high quality diesels here because of the damage that high sulphur diesel will do to them.
Just recently legislation has been passed in the U.S. that will mandate a gradual phase over to better quality diesel. This will both reduce emissions and allow for better quality diesel engines to be sold in this country. In Europe nearly every model line is sold with a diesel engine - some of them capable of quite astonishing performance might I add (500 lbs or so of torque from a 300 HP diesel engine is not uncommon in luxury models).
Diesel cars have not progressed here because refiners have refused to foot the extra cost of cleaner burning fuel for them. Slowly this will change, hopefully.
ozone pilot
This car has a lot of innovations directed at both the gasoline components and the electric ones. Consequently, it is hard to evaluate the actual benefit of going electric compared to a gasoline-only car. Suppose you had a car with all the technology in this car that applies to the gasoline technology -- lightweight body, advanced engine, idle stop, aerodynamic shape, funny tires etc -- but without the additional weight and cost of the electric motor, NiMH battery and related hardware. Would such a car beat the hybrid in mileage?
I do not deny that the electric components offer some benefits here, such as the turbo-like performance boost. But is the additional weight and cost worth it? One should not underestimate the potential of cars based only on the internal combustion engine.
This car is just cool. Gas electric, and pure electric vehicles have far more potential for pure performance then internal combustion engines. Internal combustion is a 90-year-old technology, and while it still works, it's clearly sub-optimal.
I read an article in wired several months ago about drag racers who used electric cars they built themselves. Turns out, you can get way, way more horsepower with batteries and motors then you can with normal gas engines. The key to saving the environment, they thought, was to make electric cars not a sacrifice, but simply better. Simply more exciting then normal cars. Like the ars-technica article said, the green stuff is simply gravy.
Amber Yuan 2k A.D
"and dear god does this website suck now." -- CmdrTaco
Why the hell can't we just all use litres???
Nick
-- "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park" - Jim Moran
the force of two 1 ton vehicles colliding at 35 mph is far less than that of 3 ton vehicles (SUVs)...
And how is this relevant? "Amount of force" != "likelyhood of fatality". The SUVs are bigger (more room to deform before passengers are affected) and stronger (more steel in the frame) and are therefore safer. Plus, they are higher off the ground. Imagine a car and an SUV in a head-on--the SUV would practically sail over the car--decapitating the car's driver but leaving the SUV driver "high and dry".
--
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There are some things that ARS failed to mention, namely the total weight you can carry in the car - 380 pounds. So, that means I can ride in the car, but none of my friends can at the same time. Yes, I need to loose some weight...
Also, for a really excellent write up of what the pros and cons of this car are, visit Insight Man and be sure to check out his logs. He offers tons of great information on this car - a lot more than the two trips ARS took. Insight Man has attained over 90 MPG the last time I looked.
Anyway, if it was not for the low weight carrying limit, I would get one of these in a second. Guess I am going to have to go find a Prius. At least I can have someone else ride along in it.
F*** Honda, the author's car is way better than any Honda (he has a VW GTI VR6, may not have the same gas mileage...). If i was looking for a car with good gas mileage I would not touch a Honda Insight, the technology is too new. Plus it is a Honda piece of S***. I would get a new VW Lupo, the diesel goes 100km on 2.99L of gasoline (or approx 90 mpg for you standard folks)! Check it out at http://www.vwvortex.com/news/index_lupo80.html
I didn't realize Ars Technica had automotive experts in addition to video card experts :P
Anyhow, electric cars may avoid the gasoline problem up front, but they still need to get electricity from *somewhere*. In most areas, that electricity isn't coming from solar or wind power, making them not as oh-so-envioronmentally friendly as some people like to think. Better, yes, but more of a dodge than a solution.
Where there are electronics, there can be a jammer.
:) Tivo, coupled to the car's other sensors, i.e. speed, braking force, whathaveyou. A blackbox for the car. Sure, they'd need a bit of hardening, but most accidents would not kill a notebook PC as it is, and with a bit of planning, you'd have to be completely pulverized for there to not be recoverable data.
Then by that logic, we should all revert to pre-1980 cars, before fuel injection, ABS, efficiency computers that manage air/fuel ratios...
There's electronics in virtually every car you see on the road. The ones that DO NOT have to worry about jamming are either refurb antiques, or about to fall apart due to gravity.
IMO, little cam-pods would look absolutely great on my car, and they'd give me a better field of vision. I'd never have to adjust them once aimed. I could opt for the fish-eye lenses to get rid of that pesky blind-spot. I could get the deluxe version with IR-at-night...
Hell, I wouldn't mind having one pointed out the back, and the front too... This would also allow for a great savings in insurance cost across the board. Install a Tivo in the trunk, and loop the last few minutes. In the event of an accident, the police and insurance could reconstruct the whole situation without ambiguity.
Finally, a good use for all those outdated 486 boxes...
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
Please be aware: You cannot generate power from a windmill attached to an electric car. You will waste more electricity moving the car than you will recover!
If you are parked for a long time in an open field, you could raise a windmill to try and pick up a standing breeze; you'd need a 12 foot prop to generate any significant energy, though.
I know of what I speak; I drive an electric car, and I took high school physics.<g>
Pat Beirne
Corel
"visit Insight Man and be sure to check out his logs."
He has MORE THAN ONE log?!
"And like that
Almost a year ago now I hit this '96 Chevy Blazer with my car (1991 Toyota MR2). As you can see from the pictures, the damage was pretty much the opposite of what you'd expect in a collision between a 2500 pound car (MR2) and a 6000 pound car (?? - blazer).. Someone else said something about SUV's roofs caving in.. The roof of this blazer did just that, and you can see it in the polaroid on the right (or in this extra-large 5.5 meg jpeg).
Anyways, the lady was in the process of running a red light when I hit her. Serves her right for talking on her cell phone while driving her "safe" SUV during her commute home. That's what I suspect, anyways, I never got a chance to confirm my suspicions...
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
It may be true that's it's a lot of money, but so are other cars. The average price of a new car in the United States is *over* $22,000. That makes the Insight a bit below average cost wise.
Matches my trailertrash wife too...
Wah!
What do these electric cars do for HEAT?
Heat on a gas or diesel vehicle is derived
as a by-product of the cooling system, or,
as in the case of air-cooled cars (vw, porsche),
from heat exchangers warmed by the exhaust manifold.
If you have to use some of your electricity for heat, that's power that you won't be using to drive. I live in a warm climate, but even in Phoenix AZ I want a heater in my car in the wintertime. Last week I was in a place that reached below 30 degrees (yes, in July), and certainly would not have wanted to be in a car without a decent heater.
Somebody in Durango Colorado in February has to deal with 20 below.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
That's all gasoline engines, not just SUV's. You're lucky to get your fuel burn below 0.44 lb/horsepower-hour. The big difference between fuel demand in an SUV vs. an econobox isn't in the engine, but in the amount of energy required to get them moving (E=1/2mv^2) and shove them through the air (power=drag*speed, air drag=0.5*Cd*rho*A*v^2). The SUV either needs a bigger engine (more fuel burn) or works the same engine harder (more fuel burn, plus shorter lifespan). But efficiency of the engine (which is often shared among many different model lines of both cars and trucks) varies only a little for the same operating conditions.
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
I loved the Civic VX when it came out. It had the vroom that I expect from a pocket rocket--and it got 50 miles to the gallon. But boy racer that I am, I waited for and later purchased a del Sol VTEC so I could smoke VR6s and not get dusted too badly by Mustangs and RX-7s--the performance to fuel economy ratio was still acceptable to me at the time. (It still is, frankly, even at $2.11/gallon for 92 octane in downtown SF.)
When I can purchase either a hybrid- or fuel cell-powered car and kick V8 ass with the angry whirring of a high-performance electric motor, I will plunk my money down. But not until then. Fuel economy is a plus, but it's not worth trading off the visceral experience of sheer horsepower.
I'm also much less interested in a hybrid car than a hydrogen-powered fuel-cell. The sooner I can completely wean myself off of gasoline and onto a renewable resource, the better I will feel about my rampant commercialism.
What I am waiting for is nothing less than a fuel cell-powered 21st century hot rod that is affordable. That car will send me running to the credit union.
Good first effort, Honda, but I'll wait for Insight 2.0 or later.
............ kris
Kris Magnusson
Director, Developer Relations
"I thought I could organize freedom. How Scandinavian of me."
Excellent, and here's an even more practical choice - the VW Golf TDI! Exactly the same mileage specs (42/49), except it is a true 4 seater available in 4 door model, with great headroom in the back seat as well as the front (unlike the Beetle in the back) - and a far superior trunk. Warning - it's an EXTREMELY stodgy looking hatchback - I love the styling though.
:-)
Or for you guys who favor the traditional 3-box sedan, the VW Jetta TDI - 4 doors, and again, the same mileage specs.
I have no stock in VW
yes, that is exactly what happens,.. in the movies and cartoons.
why don't you go try it out and report back to me what happens
force has everything to do with it, 3x the force, and you're going to have a much bigger disaster, and why don't you face it,... the SUVs aren't tanks, they are going to be smashed to bits just like everything else.
besides which, this is based on the misconception that people are squished inside of cars and that's how they die.
not so,.. people die from being flung about, rolling over, and *sometimes* being crushed by the car. (this is more common in side-impacts, in which case, guess what? your SUV really doesn't have much more space
again, Excursion vs. Festiva, yes the 3 ton car is going to send the Festiva flying into next week.
but why is it a good thing that the Festiva driver dies and the Excursion driver lives? just because you are the Excursion driver? no, you are both equally worthless, and neither one of you has a right to live beyond the other's.
that is my point, SUVs put other driver's (needlessly) in danger.
they won't let you drive an 18-wheeler just 'coz you want to, and while i am totally against the gov't coming in and regulating more, i wish people would think logically..
but of course, being a realist (and sometimes a nihilist) i know this won't happen.
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
It's not mine. I really don't drive. It's kind of a protest on the fees one has to pay in my state (Illinois) for title transfers. I own the car, why should I have to pay the state if I buy another one?
But a new Malibu, without options, is 16535, SMRP. A Malibu LS is 19215. The depreciation on the friend's Malibu basially allowed the purchaser to get CD/tape player, power everything, etc.
Contrast Corvette, 2 door, convertable (is there any reason for a hardtop?), goes for 45705, again, retail.
Stickin' with the Chevy's, a Metro (severe low end of their product line), 4 door sedan is 10660. But the BASE model of the chevy Blazer (suv) is 45705.
It doesn't help that the low-price market for cars is neatly ignored by Lexus, BMW, Land Rover, etc. . .
Even if the mean price for a car is even 10,000, it still doesn't mean I can afford one when I can't even afford to get new plates and titles on a car (about $150).
Food, shelter, those come first when I can walk nearly everywhere else.
later
Dan
FYI, it isn't permanently attached to the vehicle. It is used only while parked as a battery regeneration power source.
It really helps if you actually read/skim/browse the actual link before posting... honest...
Mr. Ska
I read it.
Some day, when I have an extra 20 k floating around, I'm going to get an old 911.
That day may never come, though.
George
of no one willing to take the first step for selfish reasons.
safety issues really are a very minor concern to me, i'm going to die some day whether i like it or not,.. i'm not too concerned about a tiny, tiny, miniscule bit of a fraction of a statistical percentile chance of survival.
what i care about is the fact that those beasts handle like crap, guzzle gas, and are ugly as all get-out. those things are my reasons for not wanting one for myself.
other people having them wouldn't bug me (and didn't bug me when this was true) if fewer people had them. as it is, i can't see traffic lights, i can't see around corners, etc. etc.
it's much scary when Rick the Excursion driver who thinks (wishes) he ha(s/d) a porsche comes up behind me doing 95 on the freeway (and i know it's a cop zone so i am going 70, otherwise, it wouldn't be such a speed difference.) this is less frightening when someone is in a smaller (more nimble) car.
anyway, we could go in circles all day, neither of us is going to change our opinion.
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
"Reality is less than television."-Brian Oblivion
Well, compared to your 'read somewhere', take a look at the March 1998 issue of Scientific American, in which several experts in the field of oil field reserves detail how they have concluded that we have discovered 95% of all the oil there is to discover. In fact, in the last decade, the industry has pumped more oil than it has discovered, and the vast majority of "discoveries" were actually accounting adjustments about the size of existing oil fields.
In other words, you're blowing smoke, and the situation is a lot worse than you'd like us to believe.
...phil
...phil
"For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3."
And it costs us so much to produce the wind too, no forget that, lets go right to the source.
Imagine how inefficient the Sun is! Radiating all that energy in directions other than directly at the Earth.
I propose we construct a large cylindrical funnel of mirrors around the Sun and Earth, with the earth at the focus, so we can reap ALL the energy and get our moneys worth!
Lars -
Not all performance numbers rise with the same rate of x86's clock speeds.
Have you considered eating your friends?
--
Does narcissism count as a hobby? --Shawn Latimer
Consider this:
The Insight, and the soon-to-be-released Toyota, are pretty much experimental cars. No one knows how reliable hybrid technology will be, or how much it will cost to maintain.
The Insight, and the Toyota are sold, and serviced at an economic loss to their respective manufacturers. One seriously has to consider if these cars are serious looks at the future, or just marketing vehicles.
So, do you want to pay $23k to be a beta tester for the automotive industry?
If you don't, and you want to buy a efficient, clean vehicle that you'll be able to drive and get parts for for a couple hundred thousand miles, hop on over to Fred's TDI Page and figure out if you are the kind of person who could drive a diesel. And yes, those of you over 6' or with families are welcome.
If you are lucky enough to live in Europe, and want a car to put any Insight to shame, check out the VW Lupo, a TDI subcompact that gets nearly 100mpg without the aid of windmills, sails, flux capacitors, or overthrustors.
p.s. I drive a 99 Jetta TDI, average 60+ miles per day, and 43MPG. I can fit my wife, and 2-year-old and luggage, and a trunk full of work-related stuff in it with no problem. I'll race any Insight owner: First one to a junkyard loses.
If they raise gas prices to $10 a gallon, I'll still drive my car as fast as possible. I LOVE SPEED... who cares about mileage?
...when we are in agreement? Now that you admit that SUVs ARE safer, we are in complete agreement. I don't like them either (anymore). I agree that they can be scary to drive next to, they block your vision, they are inefficient and slow.
But that's no excuse to spread FUD about safety.
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