I agree this is a problem, but I disagree that it's a fatal flaw. People could, for example set up local automated
scripts(or download bots from TUCOWS) to take care of the pop ups behind the scenes (e.g. they authorize sites
X Y and Z automatically). They still have to deal with new sites, but there are still schemes yet to be discovered to
deal with these situations with a minimal amount of hassle.
Don't you think that would be highly annoying? I doubt techincally illiterate people will be willing to do this. So, maybe it'll get integrated into MSIE 7. But just like with cookies, the default will probably be "Yes, to everything", and that leaves annoying pop-up window attacks still possible (also, consider the attack of hidden frames: have half the website devoted to frames that look like background, yet charge the user seperately. This is less obivous than popping up windows all over the place.)
And let's look at what we get in return, quality websites. The days of great sites like this arrising from ad revenue are numbered.
This is probably true. Ads are clearly not the way to make money on the internet. They don't work, as Jakob Neilsein is fond of pointing out. I'm just saying that micropayments, at least in their current form are also not the way to do it. Personally, I don't mind this. There are very few "content" sites that I actually like. Salon.com is about the only one. The rest...well, I'd be happy to see them go, and see the internet move back into a more person-to-person communication medium. Yet, as you point out, even this has costs. Maybe FreeNet will help with this, because it distributes the bandwidth across the whole network. We'll see. In the meantime, Clay Shirky suggests three options in his article:
Aggregation -- bundle a large number of low-value things together
Subscription -- pay for the site. I'm not sure if this will work (see: Slate.com), but maybe it would for a network of related sites (see: pr0n)
Subsidy -- Shirky points out that most real-world art centers (museums, operas, etc) are funded this way. This is what Amazon's Honor System is (not a micropayment as is often claimed). Goats and Penny Arcade are now trying this with PayPal and Amazon. Online comics are well suited for this type of system, I think, because they take a lot of work and skill to do right, and have a strong network of fans. It will be interesting to see if it works.
Also, don't forget selling real-world products related to your work. Comic artists can sell books, and tech columnists can be consultants (selling themselves). Then, providing the service of the website, which costs so much money, basically becomes advertising!
As for flat fees, your point only applies to the United States. I've heard that in other countries Internet access fees
are generally per hour. As much as we like to think we're the only part of the world that matters, we're not:)
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I actually kind of like the bigger ads. Why? Because they aren't so annoying.
Banner ads are annoying. They have flashing graphics, Java, stupid crap like that. The only kind of banner ads I like are the ones which are actually HTML forms and let you calculate something. Those are useful. I'm suprised they aren't used more.
The reason I like the bigger ads is that they are also useful. CNet's been running a lot of ads from Sun (this one) lately. They're really big, and they're filled with text. Text I actually read, because it's informative, and it doesn't flash or do anything stupid. I just sits there and asks me to read it. I think this is the one true use of advertising -- to inform people about a product or service. How would we find out about some things if it weren't for advertising? Think about your local paper. It's sold at a loss and supported by ads -- HUGE ads. They take up half the page or more in some cases. But we don't mind too much, because they don't flash, and they have INFORMATION which we might FIND USEFUL! CNet's lareger advertisement format gives the advertiser more space to work with (so they don't need to use animation), and is situated in the page more like an ad in the newspaper, as part of the page, instead of on top or the bottom.
The other form of advertising I like is Google's AdWords and sponsored links. Again, they are non-intrusive and informative.
The author specifically states that the customer authorizes micropayments on a per-merchant, per-time and
per-amount basis. If a merchant did this to you, all they would get is the amount you authorized them for, money
you were willing to give them anyway.
This is exactly the problem with micropayments. If a user's browsing is interupted to ask him to confirm a payment of $.02 (or LESS!) for the usage of site XYZ for the next N hours (and please click here to read our 40 page license agreement), that is a significant transaction cost (the "amount" it costs the user to think about whether or not to pay the $.02). In fact, I believe that the transaction cost for micropayments is higher than the payment itself! Which means that micropayments are doomed to failure, because people will hate them, unless they are invisible -- which absolutely allows the type of attack this poster is suggesting is possible. And think about it. Would you fight your ISP (or whoever was recording the micropayments) to get that $.40 back? Unless you do it on principle, it's just not worth your time -- so that crook just got away with stealing your money.
There is more evidence that users will not accept micropayments. Users prefer flat fees. That's why the $19.95/month ISP model win out over AOL's old price-per-minute model. Read Why the Internet Won't be Metered for more information.
Minnesota has the same stupid Blue Laws. From the replies to your post, it sounds like they're pretty common still. I was just in Pittsburg, and apparently Pennsylvania has some of the strongest blue laws around, including forbidding hunting and selling cars on Sunday. It's been a topic of debate there for 300 years, I guess.
Back home in Minnesota, you can go to the bars and get bombed out of your mind, but you can't buy a bottle of wine for dinner (grocery stores are also forbidden to sell wine or anything other than 3.2 beer). I grew up in North Dakota (yea, Fargo) and they used to have the same stupid laws -- until a few years ago, when the were almost all repealed. Now, North Dakotans can buy liquor in liquor stores and shop on Sunday. North Dakota, in this case, has the rare honor of being more progressive than Minnesota.
Re:Can you Americans take anything seriously ?
on
Web-Based Comics
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· Score: 1
Actually, considering our latest Mars missions, I would suggest leaving the "landing without crashing" part up to the British.
Not to mention the way he's unabashedly biased the Jargon File. Check out the entry for Python, if you want to see what I mean.
I realize ESR has done a lot more for...urm...open source...as he likes to call it that I have, but I don't have an ego the size of New York City, either. That just bugs me.
My friend just wrote one of these in Perl. All his calls to his house are answered by his modem, which has CallerID. He uses a Perl script which interfaces with the command line address book 'abook' to determine what to do with the call. He has the option to ignore the call, send it to his cell phone, or send it to his home phone. I believe he also has it set up so that if the call goes to his home phone and he doesn't answer, it will get forwarded to his cell phone.
It's very cool! I'll try to get him to post on this thread with more details.
Putty is a great program for those of us stuck on Windows at work. It's easy to download (it's only one exe file!) and really small. Just do a google search for "putty" and 30 seconds later, you're in business.
In general, it's also a great vt100 client, better than most I've used.
Your analogy is flawed, because using the river changes the river in a way detremental to others. However, intercepting the satellite signals has absolutely no affect on the ability for others to intercept (use) the same satellite signal, nor on the ability for DirecTV to broadcast the signal.
I think it is foolish for the DirecTV people to stop a fringe minority of people from enjoying free service, but it is their right. I'm fine with it as long as they don't use the law as a heavy blunt instrument, like the DVD CCA did. Then, it's just a war of brains against brains, hackers versus DirecTV programmers. No one gets hurt, and it's fun.
I also saw CTHD at the Uptown last weekend. Apparently you don't "get" the Uptown. It has a certain ambiance. They don't make theatres like that anymore. Enjoy it.
Also, I was probably one of the ones you were annoyed with. Why did I giggle during the flying scenes? Because it's FUNNY. People can't fly! In CTHD they don't even try to make it look real. The actors don't need to push off to jump to the next building, they are just repelled, apparently.
Yes, I know it's a genre thing. Does it make you feel better that when I watch other Hong Kong action movies, I also giggle and groan? (My favorite is in All Men Are Brothers 2, when the guy runs straight up the 40 foot tall poll carrying the other guy on a chain, and ties him up at the top. Tell me that's not funny.). I also do the same thing in American action movies. Because it's rediculous, and therefore funny.
I have mod right now; I'm not modding this down because I am not convinced the poster is a troll. I think he is merely misinformed. Look at his posting history; unless this is a spoof account he does not have a history of trolling.
Yeah, but I'm originally from ND, and I know we've got plenty of coal out there. It's really dirty so they don't use much of it anymore. Which makes it perfect for spuring global warming!
As another Minnesotan, I am also looking forward to global warming. The winters here are simply intolerable.
Where does our food come from? Mostly around here, at least for the staples (wheat, sugar, cows) though it will be a shame not to have Florida oranges or California avocados anymore. Maybe they'll grow in Tennesse after things warm up a bit.
Clean water? That's true, the Mississippi isn't the cleanest, but we can always buy from Canada, they have plenty!
Our electricty? We've got one nuclear plant here, maybe we can just stop selling electrcity to the rest of you suckers...especially after you're all under water...And don't forget all the coal out in North Dakota, which we'll be burning steadily to keep the temperature up.
I read the summary and immediately said "Bullshit!" I used to read a lot of Bakker (The Dinosaur Heresies) and Gregory S. Paul (Preditory Dinosaurs of the World). They covered this issue way back when. Bakker noted that the only reason for dinosaur to have a long neck is to hold it up high. If a dinosaur was supposed to graze, it'd have a short neck, like a cow (he has a hilarious picture of what a grazing brontosaur would look like). There's no evolutionary advantage to having a neck half your body length if you're keeping it on the ground.
Actually, I'm a libertarian, and I tell people to vote for Nader. I wrote this for my school's newspaper:
Let me explain why I am voting for Ralph Nader. He is the only viable
candidate promising any sort of freedom. He supports drug
decriminalization and hemp production. He supports gay marriage and
opposes the death penalty. He wants to end our oppressive wars abroad. He
wants to get corporations out of government. The other candidates are
closet fascists, at best.
True, I don't agree with everything Nader stands for. But I don't worry
about that, because he's not going to get elected! I support Ralph Nader
because I support a strong third party. If 15% of the electorate votes for
Ralph Nader, the man elected will not have a clear mandate, preventing him
from lousing things up too badly. Plus, the success of one third party
gives the others (i.e., the Libertarian Party) legitimacy. And more
choices can only benefit everyone. After all, isn't choice what capitalism
is all about?
I second "The Guy I Almost Was". I read it a few months ago (I devoured all of Electronic Sheep, actually) and it had a profound impact on me. Very deep.
A nit: There were over 12,000 people at the Minneapolis. Everyone there paid $7 to get in. It was the largest Presidental rally *ever* in America. [reference]
I was there, and it was amazing. And I'm a libertarian!
Hmmm, wouldn't it be wonderful for that "useful and realistic" astronomy, if launch prices dropped below $1000/lb and we could orbit a fleet of space telescopes?
Purposefully or not, NASA is killing the space industry. The DC looked *damn* good, and there are plenty of other privately-funded rockets that *don't* cost $1,000,000,000, but can't get any funding because of NASA's promises. Screw that.
Slashdot Mirror
I agree this is a problem, but I disagree that it's a fatal flaw. People could, for example set up local automated scripts(or download bots from TUCOWS) to take care of the pop ups behind the scenes (e.g. they authorize sites X Y and Z automatically). They still have to deal with new sites, but there are still schemes yet to be discovered to deal with these situations with a minimal amount of hassle.
Don't you think that would be highly annoying? I doubt techincally illiterate people will be willing to do this. So, maybe it'll get integrated into MSIE 7. But just like with cookies, the default will probably be "Yes, to everything", and that leaves annoying pop-up window attacks still possible (also, consider the attack of hidden frames: have half the website devoted to frames that look like background, yet charge the user seperately. This is less obivous than popping up windows all over the place.)
And let's look at what we get in return, quality websites. The days of great sites like this arrising from ad revenue are numbered.
This is probably true. Ads are clearly not the way to make money on the internet. They don't work, as Jakob Neilsein is fond of pointing out. I'm just saying that micropayments, at least in their current form are also not the way to do it. Personally, I don't mind this. There are very few "content" sites that I actually like. Salon.com is about the only one. The rest...well, I'd be happy to see them go, and see the internet move back into a more person-to-person communication medium. Yet, as you point out, even this has costs. Maybe FreeNet will help with this, because it distributes the bandwidth across the whole network. We'll see. In the meantime, Clay Shirky suggests three options in his article:
- Aggregation -- bundle a large number of low-value things together
- Subscription -- pay for the site. I'm not sure if this will work (see: Slate.com), but maybe it would for a network of related sites (see: pr0n)
- Subsidy -- Shirky points out that most real-world art centers (museums, operas, etc) are funded this way. This is what Amazon's Honor System is (not a micropayment as is often claimed). Goats and Penny Arcade are now trying this with PayPal and Amazon. Online comics are well suited for this type of system, I think, because they take a lot of work and skill to do right, and have a strong network of fans. It will be interesting to see if it works.
Also, don't forget selling real-world products related to your work. Comic artists can sell books, and tech columnists can be consultants (selling themselves). Then, providing the service of the website, which costs so much money, basically becomes advertising!As for flat fees, your point only applies to the United States. I've heard that in other countries Internet access fees are generally per hour. As much as we like to think we're the only part of the world that matters, we're not :)
But remember that Europeans HATE this!
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I actually kind of like the bigger ads. Why? Because they aren't so annoying.
Banner ads are annoying. They have flashing graphics, Java, stupid crap like that. The only kind of banner ads I like are the ones which are actually HTML forms and let you calculate something. Those are useful. I'm suprised they aren't used more.
The reason I like the bigger ads is that they are also useful. CNet's been running a lot of ads from Sun (this one) lately. They're really big, and they're filled with text. Text I actually read, because it's informative, and it doesn't flash or do anything stupid. I just sits there and asks me to read it. I think this is the one true use of advertising -- to inform people about a product or service. How would we find out about some things if it weren't for advertising? Think about your local paper. It's sold at a loss and supported by ads -- HUGE ads. They take up half the page or more in some cases. But we don't mind too much, because they don't flash, and they have INFORMATION which we might FIND USEFUL! CNet's lareger advertisement format gives the advertiser more space to work with (so they don't need to use animation), and is situated in the page more like an ad in the newspaper, as part of the page, instead of on top or the bottom.
The other form of advertising I like is Google's AdWords and sponsored links. Again, they are non-intrusive and informative.
The author specifically states that the customer authorizes micropayments on a per-merchant, per-time and per-amount basis. If a merchant did this to you, all they would get is the amount you authorized them for, money you were willing to give them anyway.
This is exactly the problem with micropayments. If a user's browsing is interupted to ask him to confirm a payment of $.02 (or LESS!) for the usage of site XYZ for the next N hours (and please click here to read our 40 page license agreement), that is a significant transaction cost (the "amount" it costs the user to think about whether or not to pay the $.02). In fact, I believe that the transaction cost for micropayments is higher than the payment itself! Which means that micropayments are doomed to failure, because people will hate them, unless they are invisible -- which absolutely allows the type of attack this poster is suggesting is possible. And think about it. Would you fight your ISP (or whoever was recording the micropayments) to get that $.40 back? Unless you do it on principle, it's just not worth your time -- so that crook just got away with stealing your money.
There is more evidence that users will not accept micropayments. Users prefer flat fees. That's why the $19.95/month ISP model win out over AOL's old price-per-minute model. Read Why the Internet Won't be Metered for more information.
Minnesota has the same stupid Blue Laws. From the replies to your post, it sounds like they're pretty common still. I was just in Pittsburg, and apparently Pennsylvania has some of the strongest blue laws around, including forbidding hunting and selling cars on Sunday. It's been a topic of debate there for 300 years, I guess.
Back home in Minnesota, you can go to the bars and get bombed out of your mind, but you can't buy a bottle of wine for dinner (grocery stores are also forbidden to sell wine or anything other than 3.2 beer). I grew up in North Dakota (yea, Fargo) and they used to have the same stupid laws -- until a few years ago, when the were almost all repealed. Now, North Dakotans can buy liquor in liquor stores and shop on Sunday. North Dakota, in this case, has the rare honor of being more progressive than Minnesota.
Actually, considering our latest Mars missions, I would suggest leaving the "landing without crashing" part up to the British.
Amen, brother.
Sorry I don't have anything more insightful to say but I have to catch my ride.
Or for the references to "art fags"...
Not to mention the way he's unabashedly biased the Jargon File. Check out the entry for Python, if you want to see what I mean.
I realize ESR has done a lot more for ...urm...open source...as he likes to call it that I have, but I don't have an ego the size of New York City, either. That just bugs me.
My friend just wrote one of these in Perl. All his calls to his house are answered by his modem, which has CallerID. He uses a Perl script which interfaces with the command line address book 'abook' to determine what to do with the call. He has the option to ignore the call, send it to his cell phone, or send it to his home phone. I believe he also has it set up so that if the call goes to his home phone and he doesn't answer, it will get forwarded to his cell phone.
It's very cool! I'll try to get him to post on this thread with more details.
Putty is a great program for those of us stuck on Windows at work. It's easy to download (it's only one exe file!) and really small. Just do a google search for "putty" and 30 seconds later, you're in business.
In general, it's also a great vt100 client, better than most I've used.
Or my personal wish, be able to type a regex into the Netscape search box!
Your analogy is flawed, because using the river changes the river in a way detremental to others. However, intercepting the satellite signals has absolutely no affect on the ability for others to intercept (use) the same satellite signal, nor on the ability for DirecTV to broadcast the signal.
I think it is foolish for the DirecTV people to stop a fringe minority of people from enjoying free service, but it is their right. I'm fine with it as long as they don't use the law as a heavy blunt instrument, like the DVD CCA did. Then, it's just a war of brains against brains, hackers versus DirecTV programmers. No one gets hurt, and it's fun.
I also saw CTHD at the Uptown last weekend. Apparently you don't "get" the Uptown. It has a certain ambiance. They don't make theatres like that anymore. Enjoy it.
Also, I was probably one of the ones you were annoyed with. Why did I giggle during the flying scenes? Because it's FUNNY. People can't fly! In CTHD they don't even try to make it look real. The actors don't need to push off to jump to the next building, they are just repelled, apparently.
Yes, I know it's a genre thing. Does it make you feel better that when I watch other Hong Kong action movies, I also giggle and groan? (My favorite is in All Men Are Brothers 2, when the guy runs straight up the 40 foot tall poll carrying the other guy on a chain, and ties him up at the top. Tell me that's not funny.). I also do the same thing in American action movies. Because it's rediculous, and therefore funny.
I have mod right now; I'm not modding this down because I am not convinced the poster is a troll. I think he is merely misinformed. Look at his posting history; unless this is a spoof account he does not have a history of trolling.
LOL!
Funniest in a while.
Yeah, but I'm originally from ND, and I know we've got plenty of coal out there. It's really dirty so they don't use much of it anymore. Which makes it perfect for spuring global warming!
As another Minnesotan, I am also looking forward to global warming. The winters here are simply intolerable.
Where does our food come from? Mostly around here, at least for the staples (wheat, sugar, cows) though it will be a shame not to have Florida oranges or California avocados anymore. Maybe they'll grow in Tennesse after things warm up a bit.
Clean water? That's true, the Mississippi isn't the cleanest, but we can always buy from Canada, they have plenty!
Our electricty? We've got one nuclear plant here, maybe we can just stop selling electrcity to the rest of you suckers...especially after you're all under water...And don't forget all the coal out in North Dakota, which we'll be burning steadily to keep the temperature up.
- with toungue in cheek -
It looks cool to me. I'm going to check it out.
You could designate some one else to maintain it, if you don't have the time.
Luke Francl
Actually, it was the EFF, not the FSF.
Thanks for the excellent reply.
I read the summary and immediately said "Bullshit!" I used to read a lot of Bakker (The Dinosaur Heresies) and Gregory S. Paul (Preditory Dinosaurs of the World). They covered this issue way back when. Bakker noted that the only reason for dinosaur to have a long neck is to hold it up high. If a dinosaur was supposed to graze, it'd have a short neck, like a cow (he has a hilarious picture of what a grazing brontosaur would look like). There's no evolutionary advantage to having a neck half your body length if you're keeping it on the ground.
Luke
I wish I had mod, so I could moderate that up as Funny. There's still some damn good AC stuff on /.
I second "The Guy I Almost Was". I read it a few months ago (I devoured all of Electronic Sheep, actually) and it had a profound impact on me. Very deep.
A nit: There were over 12,000 people at the Minneapolis. Everyone there paid $7 to get in. It was the largest Presidental rally *ever* in America. [reference]
I was there, and it was amazing. And I'm a libertarian!
Hmmm, wouldn't it be wonderful for that "useful and realistic" astronomy, if launch prices dropped below $1000/lb and we could orbit a fleet of space telescopes?
Purposefully or not, NASA is killing the space industry. The DC looked *damn* good, and there are plenty of other privately-funded rockets that *don't* cost $1,000,000,000, but can't get any funding because of NASA's promises. Screw that.