The point of computers (running on UNIX or anything else) is to get things done faster and easier. For most people a GUI lets them do this with minimal training.
The "GNU way" that you propose includes teaching users about cryptic command names like chmod, rm, ls, and cp. It also means learning new operating systems such as Emacs.
Contrast this with "click a button and drag from here to there."
Don't attempt to assert moral superiority solely on the basis of accumulated arcana. (How was that for a $50 sentence?)
Not everyone needs to (should?) learn how to program or administer a computer. There are too many important things in this world. Many of them require you to concentrate on something other than the modules available on CPAN.
It doesn't diminish the fact that the fellow had a good point. Other people do. Cars are a service. If some people periodically forget to refill the tank but still require the services of a vehicle, a service is not being performed. This will not help electric vehicle adoption.
Think like an engineer. Rather than dismiss the problem out of hand, examine possible solutions.
Reason #2, is that these "red staters" grow the grain, raise the cattle, and do the argicultural work without which the country cannot literally survive. Look at where the food that we both consume and export is grown: the breadbasket. Again, this is not possible to achieve in an urban center. Urban centers are net importers of items like food and energy.
Ever look at the stats on California's agricultural output? We even have UC and CSU campuses smack dab in the middle of prime farming and ranching areas so that new generations can learn and improve.
Wheat and corn I'll grant you is a midwest priority. The lion's share of the fruits, vegetables, rice(!!!), etc. comes from California. If you've eaten a strawberry or the jelly/jam, you've eaten the fruit of California. If that strawberry didn't come from the Watsonville fields thirty miles from my house, I'll be very surprised.
Similarly the states of Oregon and Washington have enormous fruit crops every year. Mmmmm... Blackberries. The red states do their part, but give credit where credit is due.
Meat mostly comes from the central states, but contrary to popular belief, meat is a luxury, not a necessity.
Yes, everything breaks down. Thank you for reiterating entropy for us.
Hmmm... battery recycling costs versus the amount of pollutants added to the atmosphere by standard cars.
It's not like people will be taking their hybrid batteries out and tossing them into the dump. This is in stark constrast to non-hybrids that dump their excess pollutants into the air without care. Yes yes, they have catalytic convertors. They also burn a finite resource faster and emit more carbon to the atmosphere.
In fifty years, which do you think will be cheaper and more abundant: materials for batteries or oil? I think the former. Yes, it requires effort and energy, but it doesn't require oil.
But I can see your point: why use an alternative when the alternative isn't absolutely perfect. *insert sarcasm drip*
I own a 2001 model Prius (bought in late 2000). Still have the original, stock battery. In addition to normal everyday commuting, I have taken it on multiple long-distance road trips (~1/4 of the contiguous states on each trip).
I know others with either the 2001 or 2002 model. No battery problems for them either.
You don't know what you're talking about. Go sit in the corner, wear the dunce cap, and shut up. In this instance, you are completely and obviously wrong.
They seem to have crippled SVG to use the same backend as in Linux, now thing like printing are handled as bitmaps. Good point with a vector format.
"Good enough" support is better than no support at all.
Not XSL, most forms are hardcoded as a lot of identical buttons or just programmed in javascript as if it was just another UI API.
You can pass an XSLT resource as a processing instruction or perform (multiple) transformations through JavaScript. How is that not well-integrated?
I thought they closed that door for firefox, the mozilla suite opened up for a lot of applications in the browser.
No, they trimmed down the default install for Firefox. The basic engines are still there: XUL, DOM, XPCOM, E4X, etc. Firefox made applications optional whereas the Mozilla Suite bundled them all together whether you needed them or not.
XULRunner is really where it's at though.
You are probably thinking about XAML
XUL came first. XAML was a cheap knockoff. And technically, SVG (the spec) came before XAML too; it's just the implementation within Firefox that came after.
I'm also aware about what they DONT tell you (that its VERY easily cracked by anyone willing to put the time and effort into it).
I'm very curious about this. How exactly would this be done when OWA is working over an HTTPS connection? Got a reference?
The basic version works with Firefox, but it is mainly an active X thing
Yes, it's Microsoft. I don't really understand why people responding to me think that I like the product. I simply hate the alternatives even more.
though in all honesty you could build a nicer OSS version in PHP
No, you can't. You must provide notification on new e-mail and for scheduled tasks/events. A modal alert dialog box does not cut it. In addition, how do you keep it straight easily? Oh look! The taskbar has eight browser windows open. Tabs help somewhat, but if you have another tab active, the taskbar shows the title of the alternate page, not your e-mail app.
Could you handle it? Yes. Can I handle it? Yes. Would it frustrate Frank in marketing? You're damn right it will!
The e-mail/calendering app needs to be integrated, it needs to be a separate program from the others, and it needs to be integrated with the platform you are running. This doesn't mean the app can't be cross-platform like Thunderbird or Eudora. In fact, that's preferred. I am actively learning how to code XUL apps. I am no great fan of IE. Okay, I admit it, I hate IE with a passion as it has made my life far more difficult than it needed to be on many web development occasions. I am also no great fan of Outlook. It is the single greatest propagator of viruses and worms in computing history.
But Windows/Mac makes up 95% of all office workstations. IE makes up 85% of all browsers in use. Be idealistic in your goals but pragmatic in your methods. Work for bringing alternatives forward, but be aware of the world as it exists today. (Note: I didn't say "accept." I said "be aware of.")
Broken record: When the Thunderbird/Sunfire integration is deliverable (or some other contender emerges from the aether), I'll be actively pushing for a wholesale dumping of Outlook. Until that moment, sadly, it's Outlook.
I drive a non synchronized stick shift because I love it, not because it is easy
Good for you. Can you grow your own food? Do you know how to farm? It isn't easy, but many people find it rewarding. It also helps to make you more self-sufficient.
The lesson here is that not everyone needs to take in interest in the same things that you do.
There are reasons why hackers and geeks hate M$, and just because they are a big "easy" in the corporate climbing agenda, doesn't mean that small businesses or people who've not been stuck on exchange before can't use other things.
If you were talking about IIS vs. Apache or Windows 2003 vs. Debian, I'd be inclined to agree.
However...
as much as Outlook has been a virus/worm/trojan breeding ground, it still performs its duties (e-mail + calendaring + task list) better than any open source application out there.
Web-based solutions only take you so far. For example, have you tried using Gmail with installing a new mail notifier? Like Thunderbird, you need some blip, ding, dialog box, etc. to give you the message. Modal javascript alert boxes from a web app that interrupt your ability to work during the notice do not cut it. No, you need a standalone application, separate from a browser.
Speaking of a browser, you knew that Outlook was also available in a web interface, right?
Do I think Outlook/Exchange are perfect? Of course not. Do I even think they are good? Not quite. The problem is that the open source "solutions" are even worse! No, they don't transmit viruses like Outlook/Exchange, but they let people get their jobs done (in between worm outbreaks). Using an open source solution in a normal work environment with hundreds of people is like enforcing network security by clipping the outside link to the Internet. Is it secure? Yes! Absolutely secure. No one is getting into your network.
Sometimes bad is better than worse. Just because you left the industry doesn't mean the rest of us suddenly get to ignore the problem.
Wake me when the Thunderbird/Sunfire integration is complete. Then we'll talk.
And for the coworkers that aren't well versed with the concept of revision control let alone actually using it?
A real life solution needs to be usable by anyone, not just those that recognize that M-x is an Emacs-ism.
Your solution has a horrible UI, but it *will* cost thousands of dollars more than Outlook/Exchange. Why? Because training people to use your system is more expensive than an Exchange license.
You want to fuck Microsoft? Write a real competitor to Outlook that regular folks can use (or help out with the Thunderbird/Sunfire integration). Anything else is a waste of breath.
How the parent post could be seen as "Redundant," I will never know. It doesn't detract from the fact that it's completely right.
Open source E-mail app? Done in spades. Web browser? Plenty to choose from. Calendaring app? None worth mentioning. Calendering with e-mail?
Outlook did this how many years ago? It's getting close to ten years, isn't it? The closest thing I've seen to it is Gnome Evolution, and they were just blatently copied the UI of Outlook.
So if you're on Linux/BSD, use Evolution. If you're on Windows, until the planned Thunderbird/Sunfire merger, you're SOL; Outlook/Exchange is your only viable option.
Linux and the BSDs have been cross-pollinating for years. I would imagine that Solaris hasn't really joined the party because it was only so recently released under an open license.
China has ten times as many people? India has five times?
Populations and number of engineering graduates last year.
China: 1.3 billion total; over 600,000 new engineers last year. India: 1 billion total; 350,000 new engineers last year. US: 300 million total; 70,000 new engineers last year.
Comparing the US to China, try slightly less than one fourth the population with slightly less than one ninth the number of new engineers last year. Last I checked one fourth is not equal to one ninth.
You, sir, are wrong. We are getting our collective asses kicked.
Does it allow you to drop a MyISAM table if it is referenced by a foreign key, or do you have to remember to use a table type that supports foreign constraints?
It is not the middle of the next decade to a fusion power plant. It's that amount of time to the next prototype of a potential method of fusion generation -- with no assurances of break-even let alone energy production.
Plants don't grow in a vacuum. They have to get their carbon from somewhere. Most get it from CO2 in the air.
It is this carbon that is later burned. Unlike petroleum diesel which burns carbon sequestered in the ground over millions of years, biodiesel is more of a closed system, recycling the carbon.
Per the Department of Energy's statistics, each year the US consumes roughly 60 billion gallons of petroleum diesel and 120 billion gallons of gasoline. If moving the fleet of predominantly petroleum diesel trucks to biodiesel -- without making major modifications to the truck engines, fuel transportation containers, or fuel distribution methods -- is solving environmental problems, I don't know what is.
Biodiesel can indeed solve environmental problems, especially since it's the most viable way to replace oil/gasoline.
--------------
Now I'm curious. What would you suggest instead as a better environmental solution?
Well, except for one difference. InnoDB will allow you refer to tables not controlled by the InnoDB table handler, whereas we don't have that problem with PostgreSQL's MVCC. So under MVCC with PostgreSQL, by definition, you can't have partial transaction failures. (Or, more precisely, any such partial failure is a bug in PostgreSQL, but in MySQL it might be a feature.)
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The point of computers (running on UNIX or anything else) is to get things done faster and easier. For most people a GUI lets them do this with minimal training.
The "GNU way" that you propose includes teaching users about cryptic command names like chmod, rm, ls, and cp. It also means learning new operating systems such as Emacs.
Contrast this with "click a button and drag from here to there."
Don't attempt to assert moral superiority solely on the basis of accumulated arcana. (How was that for a $50 sentence?)
Not everyone needs to (should?) learn how to program or administer a computer. There are too many important things in this world. Many of them require you to concentrate on something other than the modules available on CPAN.
Yes because as we all know, all farmers across the world live in huts.
Get a Prius. It's a better car anyway.
I have never run out of gas either.
It doesn't diminish the fact that the fellow had a good point. Other people do. Cars are a service. If some people periodically forget to refill the tank but still require the services of a vehicle, a service is not being performed. This will not help electric vehicle adoption.
Think like an engineer. Rather than dismiss the problem out of hand, examine possible solutions.
Ever look at the stats on California's agricultural output? We even have UC and CSU campuses smack dab in the middle of prime farming and ranching areas so that new generations can learn and improve.
Wheat and corn I'll grant you is a midwest priority. The lion's share of the fruits, vegetables, rice(!!!), etc. comes from California. If you've eaten a strawberry or the jelly/jam, you've eaten the fruit of California. If that strawberry didn't come from the Watsonville fields thirty miles from my house, I'll be very surprised.
Similarly the states of Oregon and Washington have enormous fruit crops every year. Mmmmm... Blackberries. The red states do their part, but give credit where credit is due.
Meat mostly comes from the central states, but contrary to popular belief, meat is a luxury, not a necessity.
Yes, everything breaks down. Thank you for reiterating entropy for us.
Hmmm... battery recycling costs versus the amount of pollutants added to the atmosphere by standard cars.
It's not like people will be taking their hybrid batteries out and tossing them into the dump. This is in stark constrast to non-hybrids that dump their excess pollutants into the air without care. Yes yes, they have catalytic convertors. They also burn a finite resource faster and emit more carbon to the atmosphere.
In fifty years, which do you think will be cheaper and more abundant: materials for batteries or oil? I think the former. Yes, it requires effort and energy, but it doesn't require oil.
But I can see your point: why use an alternative when the alternative isn't absolutely perfect. *insert sarcasm drip*
I own a 2001 model Prius (bought in late 2000). Still have the original, stock battery. In addition to normal everyday commuting, I have taken it on multiple long-distance road trips (~1/4 of the contiguous states on each trip).
I know others with either the 2001 or 2002 model. No battery problems for them either.
You don't know what you're talking about. Go sit in the corner, wear the dunce cap, and shut up. In this instance, you are completely and obviously wrong.
I bought my 2001 Prius in November of 2000. Still have the original, stock battery.
Later models have improvements to the battery packs.
To the mods, how is the parent insightful when he's talking out of his ass?
Nope, it's used on all Java classes. You are thinking of the Java sandbox. Then again, the sandbox can be selectively used in non-applets as well.
You can pass an XSLT resource as a processing instruction or perform (multiple) transformations through JavaScript. How is that not well-integrated?
No, they trimmed down the default install for Firefox. The basic engines are still there: XUL, DOM, XPCOM, E4X, etc. Firefox made applications optional whereas the Mozilla Suite bundled them all together whether you needed them or not.
XULRunner is really where it's at though.
XUL came first. XAML was a cheap knockoff. And technically, SVG (the spec) came before XAML too; it's just the implementation within Firefox that came after.
Yes, it's Microsoft. I don't really understand why people responding to me think that I like the product. I simply hate the alternatives even more.
No, you can't. You must provide notification on new e-mail and for scheduled tasks/events. A modal alert dialog box does not cut it. In addition, how do you keep it straight easily? Oh look! The taskbar has eight browser windows open. Tabs help somewhat, but if you have another tab active, the taskbar shows the title of the alternate page, not your e-mail app.
Could you handle it? Yes. Can I handle it? Yes. Would it frustrate Frank in marketing? You're damn right it will!
The e-mail/calendering app needs to be integrated, it needs to be a separate program from the others, and it needs to be integrated with the platform you are running. This doesn't mean the app can't be cross-platform like Thunderbird or Eudora. In fact, that's preferred.
I am actively learning how to code XUL apps. I am no great fan of IE. Okay, I admit it, I hate IE with a passion as it has made my life far more difficult than it needed to be on many web development occasions. I am also no great fan of Outlook. It is the single greatest propagator of viruses and worms in computing history.
But Windows/Mac makes up 95% of all office workstations. IE makes up 85% of all browsers in use. Be idealistic in your goals but pragmatic in your methods. Work for bringing alternatives forward, but be aware of the world as it exists today. (Note: I didn't say "accept." I said "be aware of.")
Broken record: When the Thunderbird/Sunfire integration is deliverable (or some other contender emerges from the aether), I'll be actively pushing for a wholesale dumping of Outlook. Until that moment, sadly, it's Outlook.
Good for you. Can you grow your own food? Do you know how to farm? It isn't easy, but many people find it rewarding. It also helps to make you more self-sufficient.
The lesson here is that not everyone needs to take in interest in the same things that you do.
If you were talking about IIS vs. Apache or Windows 2003 vs. Debian, I'd be inclined to agree.
However...
as much as Outlook has been a virus/worm/trojan breeding ground, it still performs its duties (e-mail + calendaring + task list) better than any open source application out there.
Web-based solutions only take you so far. For example, have you tried using Gmail with installing a new mail notifier? Like Thunderbird, you need some blip, ding, dialog box, etc. to give you the message. Modal javascript alert boxes from a web app that interrupt your ability to work during the notice do not cut it. No, you need a standalone application, separate from a browser.
Speaking of a browser, you knew that Outlook was also available in a web interface, right?
Do I think Outlook/Exchange are perfect? Of course not. Do I even think they are good? Not quite. The problem is that the open source "solutions" are even worse! No, they don't transmit viruses like Outlook/Exchange, but they let people get their jobs done (in between worm outbreaks). Using an open source solution in a normal work environment with hundreds of people is like enforcing network security by clipping the outside link to the Internet. Is it secure? Yes! Absolutely secure. No one is getting into your network.
Sometimes bad is better than worse. Just because you left the industry doesn't mean the rest of us suddenly get to ignore the problem.
Wake me when the Thunderbird/Sunfire integration is complete. Then we'll talk.
Leaving aside the fact that Outlook/Exchange supports iCal, you seem to miss a very simple set of facts:
Do you have a solution for the 90% of companies like these?
Developers make up 0.001% of company personnel overall. What about the other 99.999%? (For the record, I'm part of the 0.001%)
And for the coworkers that aren't well versed with the concept of revision control let alone actually using it?
A real life solution needs to be usable by anyone, not just those that recognize that M-x is an Emacs-ism.
Your solution has a horrible UI, but it *will* cost thousands of dollars more than Outlook/Exchange. Why? Because training people to use your system is more expensive than an Exchange license.
You want to fuck Microsoft? Write a real competitor to Outlook that regular folks can use (or help out with the Thunderbird/Sunfire integration). Anything else is a waste of breath.
How the parent post could be seen as "Redundant," I will never know. It doesn't detract from the fact that it's completely right.
Open source E-mail app? Done in spades. Web browser? Plenty to choose from. Calendaring app? None worth mentioning. Calendering with e-mail?
Outlook did this how many years ago? It's getting close to ten years, isn't it? The closest thing I've seen to it is Gnome Evolution, and they were just blatently copied the UI of Outlook.
So if you're on Linux/BSD, use Evolution. If you're on Windows, until the planned Thunderbird/Sunfire merger, you're SOL; Outlook/Exchange is your only viable option.
Linux and the BSDs have been cross-pollinating for years. I would imagine that Solaris hasn't really joined the party because it was only so recently released under an open license.
And for the record, all three flat out rock.
China has ten times as many people? India has five times?
Populations and number of engineering graduates last year.
China: 1.3 billion total; over 600,000 new engineers last year.
India: 1 billion total; 350,000 new engineers last year.
US: 300 million total; 70,000 new engineers last year.
Comparing the US to China, try slightly less than one fourth the population with slightly less than one ninth the number of new engineers last year. Last I checked one fourth is not equal to one ninth.
You, sir, are wrong. We are getting our collective asses kicked.
Does it allow you to drop a MyISAM table if it is referenced by a foreign key, or do you have to remember to use a table type that supports foreign constraints?
Well for one, you're not pulling from the grid anymore. Being relatively self-sufficient counts for a lot.
Is it psychological? Sure, to some extent. But don't underestimate the value of psychology with regard to the drive to solve hard problems.
You still haven't addressed the most important aspect of your argument:
What do you propose would be better?
It is not the middle of the next decade to a fusion power plant. It's that amount of time to the next prototype of a potential method of fusion generation -- with no assurances of break-even let alone energy production.
Big, big difference.
Plants don't grow in a vacuum. They have to get their carbon from somewhere. Most get it from CO2 in the air.
It is this carbon that is later burned. Unlike petroleum diesel which burns carbon sequestered in the ground over millions of years, biodiesel is more of a closed system, recycling the carbon.
Per the Department of Energy's statistics, each year the US consumes roughly 60 billion gallons of petroleum diesel and 120 billion gallons of gasoline. If moving the fleet of predominantly petroleum diesel trucks to biodiesel -- without making major modifications to the truck engines, fuel transportation containers, or fuel distribution methods -- is solving environmental problems, I don't know what is.
Biodiesel can indeed solve environmental problems, especially since it's the most viable way to replace oil/gasoline.
--------------
Now I'm curious. What would you suggest instead as a better environmental solution?
Agreed. They just won't be based on fusion.
I vote biodiesel from algae.
By the way, I'm in complete agreement. Nuclear fission for the backbone with solar and wind as decentralized supplements.
Well, except for one difference. InnoDB will allow you refer to tables not controlled by the InnoDB table handler, whereas we don't have that problem with PostgreSQL's MVCC. So under MVCC with PostgreSQL, by definition, you can't have partial transaction failures. (Or, more precisely, any such
partial failure is a bug in PostgreSQL, but in MySQL it might be a feature.)