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Continued Look at Global Open Source
sebFlyte writes "In the second part of its look at open source in governments around the world, ZDNet takes an interesting look at open source in the developing world. Pricing obviously is an important factor (if you look at GDP, MS prices in Vietnam are the equivalent, for local people, of charging just shy of $50,000 for a Windows XP license in the US), but other issues arise, such as Brazil's 'sense of community', a certain amount of security-related worries from the Chinese, and language issues in India. A good analysis of the advantages of open source generally, the huge benefits it can have in developing markets, and the fact that open source is on the up despite massive amounts of lobbying and pressure from some proprietary vendors."
> (if you look at GDP, MS prices in Vietnam are the equivalent, for local people, of charging just shy of $50,000 for a Windows XP license in the US)
And worth every penny of it, just like when you buy it in the USA.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
That's why the $100 MIT Laptop makes sense: It's "cheap" for developing countries. Any *serious* developer should have one on hist desk just to see how his applications perform on the next half-of-the-world-hardware-standard.
mootion.com - Never underestimate VCs stock options (was: Web 2.0)
or a sentence; open Source is the future, it's inevitable.
Mostly US? Last I checked a LARGE portion of OSS developers were from Europe.
Since many users in poorer countries don't have existing systems there is no "switch" from one system to another. The users can start out using open source without having the baggage of expectations of how things SHOULD work. They have to start out by learning how to use an OS. Why not the free one?
Windows XP - Indian Rupees ~8,000 (average pay for an IT worker per month). Equivalent US$ 5,000. Office XP - Indian Rupees ~15,000 Eq US$ 9,000.
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
Corruption.
The decision makers too often aren't concerned about real financial benefits of others in long term (Linux isn't that usefull for populism)
One that hath name thou can not otter
(if you look at GDP, MS prices in Vietnam are the equivalent, for local people, of charging just shy of $50,000 for a Windows XP license in the US)
But of course, MS is not charging US prices in Vietnam. Every time I see authors using misleading data like this, I see no reason to trust their judgment or conclusions.
Cannot stop YOU all from doing that, though...
Happy Posting.
In the pharma industry, prices in the US are much higher than overseas. In other countries governments regulate prices to some degree to keep them low. Socialized medicine won't tolerate the US prices. In the US we basically subsidise the large costs of Research and Development, clinical trials, etc. I wonder if the software market could handle this - pricing variation by country for the same items? The problem for MS and others is that unless they do this, they're driving other countries to either steal or to open-source software. Of course, that may not be a bad thing!
That's nonsense. Open source is world-based, *not* US-based. And if you're worried about the trade deficit perhaps it's time you do something about your Microsoft-lenient corporate-whore "patriotic" president; Clinton left you in a much better situation.
and sell my 3 legit copies of windows and have the rough equivalent of half a million dollars? That's it, I'm moving!
Your sig(k) has been stolen. There is a puff of smoke!
Uptake of open source is likely to be much higher in the developing world. The crazy license fees when compared to GDP as stated in the summary is one reason but the lack of an 'existing standard' is another. It is difficult for software like OpenOffice to make headway in the developed world as MS office is fairly ubiquitous.
Microsoft believe that the developing world will have to pay the fees because they will have to maintain compatibility with those of us in the west. However, it is a subtle balance. If Microsoft price themselves out of the market and the developing world look into alternative, open source solutions the it is likely that the legitimacy of tools such as open office will increase in the west too. Globalization will require internationally compatible software, and when the choice is between a western world that prefers proprietry software and a developing world which cannot afford the same software then it is a case of Microsoft dropping its prices dramatically, or the western world adopting open solutions.
Interesting times...
I doubt that pricing is a factor in third world countries. Since they can't afford the prices anyway, but have to communicate with the rest of the world, the majority will using pirated copies of Windows. MS is probably well aware of this, and that is the reason why the local versions for these countries are also localized in the pricing. What these countries value though, is also the independence, which is the really galling thing for the US. Linux doesn't have a stron relation to a particular country, and if it ever will get one, then there is no big problem. You got the source, you can change it and develop it however you wish. When you start out with a mostly new infrostructure you don't need to think about existing ties, because there are none. So it's cheaper and more reliable to code the appropriate converters for like Word dcouments, then taking the whole OS just to get this stuff, and have the extra advatnages for free.
Awesome news. I look forward to the increasing trade deficit resulating as a direct consequence of largely U.S.-based programmers giving away their efforts for free.
And whose fault is that? If you're in a market where people will do it for free, you've picked the wrong market. Demand and supply. The free market. The american way. The anti-OSS movement are preaching protectionism and trade barriers, everything the US of A supposedly don't stand for.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Let me tell you about the so called "sense of community" South American countries are purported to have.
"Sense of Community" is another way of saying "Well, you see, the puppet government over here is run by a bunch of army generals ready to put tanks on the streets at the slightest sign of uprising. The economy is in shambles even though we have vast amounts of silver, uranium, gold and oil since no one is crazy enough to establish a firm that requires bribing 7 levels of bureaucrats and has a 50% chance of being nationalized by the government. Thats why all people not directly involved with the ruling Mafia are poor as fuck and tend to help each other out since they simply wouldn't survive any other way"
Armchair socialism is very nice until it is YOU who finds himself waiting 3 hours in line for a loaf of bread. No amount of Linux distro's is gonna change that. In the US all it took was a few exceptional men with a strong sense of the common secular good - individualism, freedom of speech, right to life and property, checks and balances. They could have drafted the constitution otherwise...no one would have stopped them, you know.
(Not mine, just a classic)
THE TROLL POLKA (ARSCHFICKEN MIT ZIEGEN)
By Serial Troller, 2002-06-25
Is das nicht ein early post? Ja! Das ist mein early post!
Is das nicht ein Goatse ghost? Ja! Das i st mein Goatse ghost!
Early post, Goatse ghost,
Oh, du schoene, Oh, du schoene, Oh, du schoene, Slashdot sucks!
Is das post at minus one? Ja! Das ist at minus one!
Is das trolling so much fun? Ja! Das trolling is so fun!
Minus one, trolling fun, Early post, Goatse ghost,
Oh, du schoene, Oh, du schoene, Oh, du schoene, Slashdot sucks!
Is das nicht ein big crapflood? Ja! Das ist mein big crapflood!
Is it worthless Linux FUD? Ja! Das ist mein Linux FUD!
Big crapflood, Linux FUD, Minus one, trolling fun, Early p ost, Goatse ghost,
Oh, du schoene, Oh, du schoene, Oh, du schoene, Slashdot sucks!
Is das nicht der CowBoiKneel? Ja! Das ist der CowBoiKneel!
Is dis nicht his manchode m eal? Ja! Das ist his manchode meal!
CowBoiKneel, manchode meal, Big crapflood, Linux FUD,
Minus one, trolling fun, Early post, Goatse ghost,
Oh, du schoene, Oh, du schoene, O h, du schoene, Slashdot sucks!
Is das nicht ein WIPO Troll? Ja! Das ist der WIPO Troll!
Is das nicht ein Goatse hole? Ja! Das ist der Goatse hole!
WIPO Troll, Goatse hole , CowBoiKneel, manchode meal,
Big crapflood, Linux FUD, Minus one, trolling fun, Early post, Goatse ghost,
Oh, du schoene, Oh, du schoene, Oh, du schoene, Slashdot sucks!
Is das nicht Jon Katz' slave boys? Ja! Das ist Jon Katz' slave boys!
Und are they not Taco's sex toys? Ja! They are Taco's sex toys!
Katz' slave boys, Rob's sex toys, WIPO Tro ll, Goatse hole,
CowBoiKneel, manchode meal, Big crapflood, Linux FUD,
Minus one, trolling fun, Early post, Goatse ghost,
Oh, du schoene, Oh, du schoene, Oh, du schoene, Slas hdot sucks!
Is das nicht ein trolltalk thread? Ja! Das ist ein trolltalk thread!
Is it nicht now FUCKING DEAD? Ja! Is really FUCKING DEAD!
Trolltalk thread, FUCKING DEAD! Katz' slave boys, Rob's sex toys,
WIPO Troll, Goatse hole, CowBoiKneel, manchode meal,
Big crapflood, Linux FUD, Minus one, trolling fun,
Early post, Goatse ghost,
Oh, d u schoene, Oh, du schoene, Oh, du schoene,
Slashdot sucks!
____________________
Change Log:
* Subtle changes to most verses. It sounded really gay before.
* Removed all references to Taco's pud. May have been high at time. Will investigate further.
* Finally think I have goat sex written correctly in German. I think. Arschficken?
(C) 2002 Serial Troller. Permission to reproduce this document is granted provided that you send all the bukkake porn you can find to serialtroller@hotmail.com.
I'm sure "SlashdotMedia" will improve on all the wonders that Dice Holdings blessed us all with
Nowhere in the article does the author talk about "anti-Americanism."
Instead, the article is all about the positive reasons for other countries to use Linux, i.e. because it is cheaper, easier to localise, supports the local software industry, and so on.
It looks like the author was used and abused by his ZDnet editors.
we went thru a HORRIBLE crisis on 94, the dollar was valued 3 pesos per dollar. Now it's near 11, meaning software costs about 3 times more.
Would you be paying 600 dollars for a legitimate copy of Windows XP? And here a very good pay is $1000 dollars a month. It's no mystery then that most software in Mexico is pirated.
Still it's an awful dependance on foreign products (businesses MUST use legitimate software), which is another reason why i support the OpenDocument initiative.
The huge price tags in those countries are probably to combat piracy losses, or force them to piracy. If developing nations just pirate Windows, then when they're developed they're going to pay for Windows.
Buckle your ROFL belt, we're in for some LOLs.
And the most-cool looking Nike sneakers would benefit automobileless citizens. However, they cost the equivalent of $10,000.
So why not "give" them away too?
A guy whose home lighting consists of a dangling electrical wire tipped with a single 10 wat bulb doesn't need Windows XP. He's got bigger issues.
Cogito Ergo Sum
Oh wait, free products aren't affected by currency exchanges. Oh well ...
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ GDP_(nominal)
_ GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
t +run+on+faster+chips/2100-1016_3-5704942.html
... wildly estimative!
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by
[3] http://news.com.com/Windows+for+India,+others+won
[4] 1 - (Price of XP SE) / ((Price of XP Home non-upgrade) * 0.60), assuming SE has roughly 60% of Home's features
Not withstanding the stupidity of the grandparent post, but I note we're still in Bosnia.
Clinton left us in what kind of better situation?
Technologically things have improved over the past 6 years. Financially we've come out of the Clinton recession. And politically, Clinton had Bin Laden in his hands, let him get away, and left the U.S. poised for 9-11.
That's not a better situation.
Cogito Ergo Sum
It's not TRADE if it's free. It's also not commerce. And that's what the US of A is built upon.
If you want free, check out the latest 8 bit Cuban operating system.
Cogito Ergo Sum
All of human progress including technology is characterized by a repeating cycle of exploration and simplification. I do think that Open Source software is a better way to make software but does not always result in better software. ;).
What I think is far more important than Open Source methodology is the setting of standards in the first place. Consider all of networking, it was formalized as a framework called OSI (Open Systems Interconnect) and was structured in such a way that it could be modularily extended with minimal disruption to other areas. Imagine what the Internet would be today without the OSI model. I think we would instead of a world wide system would be stuck for quite a few years with a mish-mash of protocols that wouldn't communicate well with each other. What I mean by that is there would be AOL networks, Microsoft networks, Sun networks, and so on and they would only communicate with each other through kludges at best. I don't see that situation as a healthy one at all. Now, given enough time everything clears up so eventually one(ish) networking standard would come to prevail but there would have been a lot more resources wasted to arrive at the equivalent point of a designed from the outset standard.
I don't think that very many people would disagree if I said that the Internet is an essential service and in many different ways that alone implies a need for regulation. Internet service is run as a free market right now and market forces are great at optimization of variables but are not intelligent and do not always do smart things (beta vs. vhs anyone?). What I'm trying to say is that governments should introduce new standards into the Internet, things that try to make it the most efficient and flexible Information conduit it can be. It's all about where you start and where you end, and with standards as a better starting point than random less effort is expended traveling to where we should be.
So where I'm going with all this is that the conflict between proprietary and open software vendors could be easier to resolve if regulations were established that in effect stated that all the pipes were going to be the same size so they would fit together. This is where the commons doesn't have to be a tragety, the removal of scarcity from the system does allow for "The Magic Cauldron" effect and that is where Open Source should be. Now, if all the basic information infrastucture is regulated, what does that leave for private enterprise? Content, baby, content. That's where all the real money is
Shh.
Microsoft Windows XP doesn't cost anything in the third world. They will give you a free copy at any internet cafe. Perhaps they will charge you a minimal charge for the CD and their time.
Same goes for linux or Adobe photoshop.
All software is practically free in the third world. Access to a computer is another thing.
It's been one of my favorite sayings for going on ten years, now: The technology that you do not master, will master you. What a shame that America won the space race, pioneered the computer race, and then lapsed into barbarism. Quite a shame; what a lead we lost. How glorious we could have been! Check the distros at DistroWatch.com sometime - a growing percentage of them are *NOT* in English! Many are tailer-made for a specific country or language other than the US.
Well, I'm glad I kept *my* hand in, instead of vegging on the couch watching football. As a second-generation immigrant myself, who taught himself eight programming languages and landed a string of tech jobs with nothing but a little vocational training paid for by his own job, don't expect me to be all sympathetic when the rest of the world leaves America behind. No one can bail you out of this mess, if you won't lift a finger to help yourself.
A mind is, indeed, a terrible thing to waste, and a person throwing away their mind on purpose wastes their life as well; an even greater tragedy. So I'll sign my rant off with deepest regrets...
From the article:
Even if software is discounted to account for local pricing, it is usually still extremely expensive and there is no guarantee that this discount will be sustained in the long term, says Ghosh.It also discusses the price of MS Windows on Amazon.com. This is a straw man. MS Windows is expensive, no doubt about it. But MS is not selling Windows in Vietnam for the same price that they are selling it for in the US. For that matter, few people in the US are paying the Amazon price!! Most folks get Windows preinstalled, and corporate volume licenses and the licenses that HP, Dell, etc. buy are certainly not the $99 or more that Windows costs on the Amazon website!
Windows is expensive, but this article is a total joke. How about giving us some real price data that those in other countries pay. Hell, how about giving us some real US price data!!!
Penny - plain text accounting
"I doubt that pricing is a factor in third world countries. Since they can't afford the prices anyway, but have to communicate with the rest of the world, the majority will using pirated copies of Windows. MS is probably well aware of this, and that is the reason why the local versions for these countries are also localized in the pricing."
Hehe. Imagine that. Prices fitting the local economy. Must be some new economic principle?
"What these countries value though, is also the independence, which is the really galling thing for the US."
Wow! The entire US? Such a vain country.
"You got the source, you can change it and develop it however you wish."
I can? How long do you think it will take to understand the entire Mozilla code, then change it (just as soon as I get the Ethiopian equivalent of a CS degree)? Of course I have plenty of time on my hands, not having to deal with that whole "staying alive" issue.
"When you start out with a mostly new infrostructure you don't need to think about existing ties, because there are none. "
Well there goes that "rest of the world" thing.
"So it's cheaper and more reliable to code the appropriate converters for like Word dcouments, then taking the whole OS just to get this stuff, and have the extra advatnages for free."
Which even now OSS still is having issues with. Better throw the cathedral model at the problem.
What is the point of these ads? Do Americans actually see an ad for some weird drug for low cholesterol, and for some reason believe they are more qualified than their doctor to decide if they need it? Who would do this?
I can't even fathom this amount of commercialism in medicine - it is wrong on so many levels I cannot even begin to explain. "Ask your Doctor about <insert drug here>. I have a better idea - why dont I assume that my doctor, who has trained for nearly a decade (and more), and who would probably have multiple orders of magnitude more information on me on my condition, would know best, and let them tell me if I need you drug., instead of listening to drug company propeganda?
You are talking about the USA, right? AFAIK, that's the only government in the world whose military budget is over $100 billion / year...
... and a government employee, I have one or two things to say:
First, actualy there is no coerent effort to push OpenSource solutions in the Federal Government. There are isolated efforts, and little coordination between them.
I work at the Rio de Janeiro Municipal Dept. of Health Care (Secretaria Municipal de Saude), we has been working on a really open framework for the past 3 years, based on Java + Tomcat + Hibernate + Firebird runnig on Debian. It's already used on a social program called Medicine at Home (Remedio em Casa), that delivers medicine by mail for people with diabetes and high blood pressure.
We had plans to extend this, and use the same framework to devellop a full hospitalar management solution, based on opensource sollutions, and enterprise ready. But it has been put aside, in favor of a project develloped by the Federal Ministery, called SNIS.
SNIS (National System for Health Information), is a nightmare of ill concepted technologies. Everything is based on proprietary solutions, such as Oracle Forms, Windows and even WindowsCE.
But the worst part are the special build PCs running WindowsCE, made of an ITX motherboard, 320x240 LCD touchscreen, termal printer, and SmartCard reader. They are meant to be used for data input, such as schedule consults on a ambulatory. The idea is that those custom "thinclients" would be cheaper to mantain than regular PCs... This could be true, if they didnt cost U$900,00 each! And, to make things even worse... the only firm that makes those babies is Procomp, a firm that is owned by DIEBOLD!!!
So, belive me when I say that OpenSource is a priority for the Brazilian government only when there are political interests behind it.
---- You know how some doctors have the Messiah complex - they need to save the world? You've got the "Rubik's" complex
Here in Egypt, intellectual property is being seriously enforced by the government if you're a business. If your company is raided and you're found pirating software, you can be fined, imprisoned or both.
:)
Worse, most average computer users know only about MS software, I've met people who think that there are no word processors except Word , no spreadsheets except Excel and that Microsoft actually invented those software categories.
Yet Linux is making big inroads here. Egyptian companies are starting to save hundreds of thousands of pounds by using Linux instead of windows licences, we have an active OSS developer community and since the majority of Egyptian home computer users are teenagers, many are learning Linux to become 'hackers'
I except that when this generation becomes the base for the Egyptian tech industry, Linux will have a huge mind and market share.
The point of computers (running on UNIX or anything else) is to get things done faster and easier. For most people a GUI lets them do this with minimal training.
The "GNU way" that you propose includes teaching users about cryptic command names like chmod, rm, ls, and cp. It also means learning new operating systems such as Emacs.
Contrast this with "click a button and drag from here to there."
Don't attempt to assert moral superiority solely on the basis of accumulated arcana. (How was that for a $50 sentence?)
Not everyone needs to (should?) learn how to program or administer a computer. There are too many important things in this world. Many of them require you to concentrate on something other than the modules available on CPAN.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
Perhaps you have never studied the United States' system, but once elected, there is not much we, the people can do about a president unless he commits "High crimes of misdemeanors". Like it or not, Bush hasn't done anything that can lead to an impeachment, and the next election is still 3 years away. Bush is a lame duck anyway and can't be re-elected again anyway.
By the way, the war in Iraq was/is not illegal. Saddam violated the peace treaty he signed way back in the day. Right wrong or indifferent, if a peace treaty is violated, you revert to a state of war. Just because we weren't shooting in earnest for the 12 years between Gulf I and Gulf II doesn't mean we weren't at war, in a legal sense. So, there's a no-go on impeachment for that.
I meant to say "$1000 dlrs/mo is CONSIDERED a very good salary by EMPLOYERS". In other words, it's very difficult to get it. Most IT jobs here in Mexico City offer you a crappy $600/mo. Are these guys kidding or what?
I disagree. A GUI is good to get you using the computer if you've never touched one. But for someone to use a computer for longer than a couple of months then I really do think that learning something more reliable and flexible is a better option if they intend to use a computer for life. I know this from personal experience because I have used a GUI for ~20 years now, become 'expert' at using MS software over this time, and consider much of those 20 years a waste of time already. It's okay to start off as a dummy, but it's pretty friggin' dumb to stay a dummy for the rest of your days. It took me little time to read some LaTeX tutorials, and I do know for sure and without a doubt that dealing with LaTeX is a much better option for me than dealing with why MS Word screws up my bulleted lists on regular basis or whether I should worry about changes to formatting resulting from using MS Word documents between version of MSOffice, OpenOffice.org, Macintosh, PocketPC and Palm or even if my platoform of choice or convenience can handle MS Office documents. None of that is a concern with LaTeX thanks to the plaintext file format that'll work on any device and I don't need to even worry about formatting seeing how LaTeX handles it all. I also don't find anything friggin impossible or even difficult about "\documentstyle{letter} \begin{document} ... letters ... \end{document}", in fact, it's simpler and faster than messing with MSWord.
I think it's ludicrous that kids learn MSWord in schools and stay with it. I think it's ludicrous that business run on MSWord. LaTeX could do all those trivial things and much, much better.
Same is for much else in the "Unix Culture". The day Unix become about no more than being a GUIfied windows-like-dumbness is the day I think it would lose anything of significance that makes it better than windows.
First off, computers are communications devices and everyone has a need to communicate...
If you have the right software on it... like, "how do I nurse my sick farm animal back to health. My kid has this or that symptoms, should I take him or her to the doctor.... show me how to make better tools for myself."
Sure, people doing "real" work don't need to worry if their presentation supports 34 or 75 chart types, but, you know, if someone in the third world sells their produce directly on ebay, they wouldn't have to go through a buyer or agent from the USA trying to cash in.
Free trade would actually work in that case, rather than making Walmart compounds everywhere.
This is my sig.
"I also don't find anything friggin impossible or even difficult about "\documentstyle{letter} \begin{document} ... letters ... \end{document}", in fact, it's simpler and faster than messing with MSWord."
And yet you have a problem clicking the lightning bolt beneath your bulleted list and selecting "stop doing (whatever the hell it's doing that's screwing you up)"? I'm not Word prolific as I should be, but I (and most other people that have any familiarity with MS products) know that when it does automatic formatting, it gives you the option to turn it off and somewhere there's going to be a box to turn it off. Yes, sometimes you may need to look in both the options menu and then the formatting menu to find it, but don't tell me that's any harder than trying to convince all these people that the \documentstyle{letter} string is simpler than searching for one check box in two menus.
The beauty of modern computing.
I feel bad for your children, being told they need to learn how to program the dashboard computers for every car they'll ever drive because it's not really that hard to learn a few response codes and which widget to tighten. On the positive side, they'll be the last to join in gang violence what with their having to learn the art of smelting before they can construct their guns. It's really not that hard to learn metalwork... they can teach themselves with a few books and they can feel so much better knowing they made it themselves.
ZDNet takes an interesting look at open source in the developing world
"Food wants to be free!"
"The Gruel Public License has been accused of being communist."
"My neighbor is illegally selling the food that I grew and shared with my other starving neighbors!"
"Users just want a life that works, without hunger getting in the way of their primary task."
"Don't hit on uknown people, even if they look safe, or you might get infected!"
"Don't complain about how horrible your country is -- jump in and fix it yourself!"
Moderator hint: a comment is neither "Flamebait" nor "Troll" if it is true.
1. Not everyone is an expert.
2. Not everyone wants to be an expert in computers. (More important)
3. You cannot drag and drop a spreadsheet table into a LaTeX document.
4. You assume that those who are not interested in the same things that you are should be considered dumb because they favor a GUI.
5. OS X is an example of a GUI done better. GUI != Windows GUI. For reference, check out Quicksilver for OS X.
6. \documentstyle{letter} \begin{document} is not as easy as using a WYSIWYG word processor. Stop deluding yourself.
7. Do you make sure to wash only whites with whites, light colors with light colors, and darks with darks? Do you fold them neatly and ordered from dark to light? Do you put striped shirts in a different section from solids? Some would argue that just a little time spent up front can save you more time later when selecting an outfit for the day. Others will be impressed by your organization.
OR
Do you just not care enough to obsess about your clean laundry. Maybe you're like me and just fold it and throw it in a dresser. Maybe like me you wash white with "fairly light" on warm most of the time.
Different people care about different things. Perhaps LaTeX would be marginally more efficient than Word (after the initial training and cursing is over). But more likely, just like organizing your sock drawer; most people figure that they have better things to do.
------------
That said, you are unfortunately comparing apples to oranges. LaTeX is a replacement to the Word doc format, not Word.
*ring* *ring*
"Hello? Okay hold on, I'll get him. It's for you. It's the 1980's calling. They want their text processor back."
Now calm down. Do I think LaTeX (and its non-obvious pronounciation) should go away? No. Do I think many people use it through a GUI and not by typing in format/structure codes? Absolutely! I also hope you grasp the irony of someone advocating for better word processing methodology (text with formatting) in a Slashdot post with absolutely no formatting whatsoever. My god man! They're called "paragraph breaks."
What the hell is the point of a 3GHz processor if you're just going to use a text editor that only loads and saves? Then of course you have to pass it through a formatter/compiler so that you can have your nice PDF or graphic or what-have-you. But wait! You need to make a template too so that it looks presentable.
Forget that! I remember the days of writing ".pp" at the beginning of WordStar documents so that numbered page footers would appear from the dot matrix printer. I remember arcane commands like "^KD" for save and close. I occasionally type ":wq" in a console when I have to. I remember typing "CLOAD BJACK" on my father's Z80-processor Exidy Sorceror and pressing play on the tape deck so that I could get a couple hands of Blackjack in before bed. They were all things that I could learn, and they weren't all that complex.
I never want anything to do with them ever again. Why? Because I have better things to worry about than obscure technical arcana that has no relevance to the world at large or the task at hand. The only point in bringing it up and proclaiming that others do the same is to assert how clever you think you are and how you think every else will be made so much more clever if they do as you do.
If you really want people to use LaTeX, bundle it up in such a way that anyone -- not just those who have used computers for ten years or longer -- can use it out of the box with only a ten-minute tutorial. Go ahead. I dare you. A word of advice: don't start the tutorial with "all you have to do is format it like '
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
Tell me in a nutshell why archie, veronica, and gopher failed to capture the hearts and minds of the world outside academia.
Why did the web succeed where the others failed?
Hmmm... Let's see the difference. Hmmmm...
Oh! That's it! The web had a graphical user interface where you could just click on things whereas the others had a text-only interface with obscure command line switches that, twenty years later, no one gives a rat's ass about.
Okay, now you can go back to your regularly scheduled sock drawer organization.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
I mean come on. If the WINDOWS license is the equivalent of $50,000 and the license is about what $60 of the cost of a PC? Then the cost of the hardware itself must be something on the order of $300,000? So moving to Linux get's that down to $250,000? Oh, I guess they can afford computers after that major drop, huh?
Or have they found some brilliant way to pirate hardware too?
I am from a south-eastern European country, where an average salary is cca 200 euros, nevertheless Windows XP Pro is priced at 150 euros (90 e for Home edition), Office 500 e - so much for making things 'affordable' in developing countries... The 'reformist' government even made a deal with Microsoft, making it a sole software supplier for governmental agencies and even educational institutions. So, I'm paying MS through taxes even, and waiting for a day when my kids (which I plan to have ;) ) will be taught something their parents do not approve of. Unless, of course, Microsoft has disappeared from the software market untill those day came :)
Uh, don't you mean *charitable* developer?
Any other developer won't waste their time since that market can't afford to purchase the software anyways.
[...] in emerging markets technology projects are more likely to be new installations, which means that licence fee savings for open source software make more of a difference, since updates and retraining are not an issue.
Repeat points made in TFA and get free Karma for your original insight!
Here in Australia, the doctor might prescribe some antibiotic, say, Amoxycillin. This is a brand name of some big pharma company. When I get to the chemist, because this is a prescription medicine, the Chemist asks if I would like the "cheaper" alternative. Cheaper is the "no frills" manufacturers.
This is what advertising should be about. To tell the consumer, that there are exact copies of the same medications made by "no frills" manufacturers, aka generic drugs.
I think the key to thinking about open source/free software is not to focus on the monetary cost. Frankly, here in Ecuador, I can buy any commercial software I want for 2 dollars. If I buy a computer here, it comes pre-loaded with everything under the sun, for no additional price. Yes, maybe some government agencies or businesses can't do that, but frankly, I think many do anyway.
The key is the ability to be able to design your own software and the importance that plays in an era leading towards the increasing integration of society, culture, and computers/artificial intelligences. Allowing Microsoft to determine that is not the best answer, and open software frecuently does allow better opportunities to design the infrastructure of our means of communication. Furthermore, it also frequently runs on slower hardware, which most definitely is NOT free.
Sorry, your analogy is bunk. MSWord VS LaTeX has *nothing* to do with a socks drawer, unless you think a computer is nothing more than a socks drawer. And I'm surprised that you would say that I'm comparing apples to oranges yet you compare this to a socks drawer or anything laundry. As for the 1980s, I do think mainstream computing has gone through a huge friggin' regression mandated by the need to sell yet-another-set-of-useless-features to people and get them to pay for them. Computing might've needed that to convert those who wanted to use it as a washing machine, and it's telling that you compare it to laundry, but I don't think that's all it needs to be, a glorified washing machine, and I don't think anyone would have any trouble to use it as such. It's already as such for most. But anyone who's going to use a computer for any significant period of time ought to consider using it well. As for your suggestion that LaTeX should be bundled in a way that LaTeX should be bundled in a way to be used out of the box with only a ten-minute tutorial, I think this expectation is the root of the problem. People don't drive a car after a ten-minute tutorial, they don't learn how to cook after a ten-minute tutorial, they don't learn how to read, write or do math within a ten minute tutorial. Why should they learn how to use a platform that's the infrastructure of modern society within 10 minutes and stagnate at that ignorance for the rest of their days?
His analogy works. Spending lots of time on something that has limited practical application in a real world setting.
Organizing your socks because it's an easy-to-learn task that makes things easier later on vs. learning complex (yes, typing that string in for formatting when 95% of Word's formatting can be accomplished with either ctrl+letter shortcut or one mouse click is more complex,) strings just because it makes things easier by not forcing you to click off Word's automatic bullets.
These people ARE using it well. They're getting exactly the functionality out of it that they need, and from the sounds of it, they're getting the same results you're getting with half the time becuase they're not forced to learn bunk codes to type in when what they need to know is "click the B for bold, click the U for underline"
As they've already argued above, no one expects you to learn the mechanical ins and outs of using the car (one could argue that the dashboard is a real-world kind of GUI, albeit it's a one-way kind of interface... you don't need to manually check your gas tank or guess as to whether one of your doors is open, it tells you) to "use it well", they just expect you to recognize what certain things do and what certain things mean. If this light goes on, get the car checked out. Flip this switch to do something. In YOUR analogy, when night falls we should pull over, get out of the car and figure out what wires need to be connected to turn the lights on.
It's awesome to know what wires to check if something does go wrong, but it doesn't help one way or the other and just spouting crap about how any driver worth their salt should know how to manually connect and disconnect their headlights. The 10 minutes is perspective. You get a 5 hour course and some driving experience... boom you can get a license. You get a help file and 10 minutes to tinker you can write a business letter. What you're actually comparing would be a requirement for drivers to go through a 40 week, 10 hours per week mechanic training before getting a license.
Don't call his analogy bunk when yours... well... they don't make words strong enough for yours.
Well it's obvious you're not a "Word prolific". Use Word for a long enough period of time as I had done, save a document a few times and load it, let it have any significant outline-like bulleted list with some indentation, and see how often it screws up the thing. I don't need to convince *any* friggin' one what's easier or harder, I have used Word for long enough and I have, not long ago, started using LaTeX. I don't need to convince *any* friggin' one, all I need is to know which is simpler and wiser *for me* to use over a long period of time and the answer is there's no contest, LaTeX wins, it's far more portable, cross-platform, secure, stable, simple, *automatic* (yes, I don't need to worry about formatting or such nonsense, it's done by LaTeX to a professional quality, and this is an opinion that *not* only I hold, by far).
As for my children, I sure hope they won't expect to know how to drive a car after a "ten-minute tutorial", or expect that any other thing that they'd use for life is worth *no* more than ten minutes of learning time - if they do, then I'll consider myself a failure of a parent for having raised such instant gratification junkies who think that life is akin to a TV remote.
I love open source, use it every day, but..
open source is simply not sustainable. The only thing that makes it sustainable at all are the fresh crops of young, niave developers set out on making a "better world" - then promptly being shut out of this world by the greedy freelancers and corporations who capitalize on their work.
A lot of work goes into these software packages, developers do not get rewarded, they do not get recognized. How many of us who routinely use programs (such as init, cat, ln and ls) actually know who wrote them?
If anyone ever bothers to contact an open source developer, it's probably just to complain or report a bug. I'd have a hard time believing the authors of 'gzip' for example, or 'ar' ever get much of a thank you note.
Sooner or later, most of these open source developers will grow sick and tired of being punished for their good deeds and move on.
The article is misleading for three reasons: 1) In most developping countries the economy is much more segmented than in "G8" countries. This means that comparing 100$ to the Per Capita Income is completly misleading because 80% of a population will NOT use any software at any price. So even without concidering the impact of piracy you would need to compare the "Average Income" of the 10 to 20% of the population that might actually want to use some software. 2) The main "Achile's Talon" of FOSS software is the need for broadband access, obvioulsy you can try to find a CD based Distro, and Only download what you absolutelly need, but in practice, even (especially) with a Dev. C. targeted distro like Ubuntu, you need a fairly fast link to be able to really setup and maintain your system. 3) In most developping countries the governments are the key buyers, and since a large part of their infrastructure is funded by international "AID", they do not actually decide anything important. For instance any government can make a "preference statement" for FOSS, and thus make the plebs happy, but if they buy a Budget management system for the government, they will need a couple of Millions Dollards to set it up, and of course the World Bank will explain that this is absolutelly necessary to be able to have a sound fiscal policy (kind of true). And the US AID (Also called "Alliance to Save the US based Corporations" will be more than happy to offer some structural funds provided that of course the majority of these funds are used with US corporations. So some integrator will hire a human ressource company to provide a group of underpaid Indian or Pakistani programmer, sell a profusion of HW, and of course use a Microsoft base (wich gives access to all the nice BSA, and OMC related lobbyist) This will force all the number cruncher in the government to use Excel, and if the auditor is using Excel you will not use OO.org And of course NO local company has the "needed experience to make a national budget management system" So the "winner" gets paid by the US tax payer on the short term, and on the medium to long term the Tax Payer from the target country will reimburse wastly inflated prices. And this can happen because nobody really "sees the cost". Well over the long term FOSS will win even in emerging countries, but it will take time, and lobbying. And the SMSI in Tunis is certainly a program destined to work on slowing down this take of as much as possible.
I'm word prolific enough to know that I've never had a problem saving a document a few times, with "any significant outline-list yadda crap yadda..." and to have it open EXACTLY as it was saved. What you're talking about is user error, plain and simple. Word isn't out to fork you over but subtly messing with your files after you save it so stop being paranoid. Nobody is saying that YOU don't think that it's easier for YOU to use LaTeX, we're just saying that everyone else understands the fact that it's not easier for any reasonable computer user and that you're just trying to toot your own horn on what ammounts to an ability few care about. Your 10-minute tutorial arguement has already been refuted, a couple of times I think, so stop using it. You're trying to compare driving lessons to learning computer software but what you are ACTUALLY comparing is learning how to put the car together and how they need to wire every function they're going to want the car to do (installing the airbag every time they get in, manually connecting their brake lights.) I'm glad you're not a lawyer, you'd get your ass handed to you trying to make those arguments. While I have no problem with you teaching your children how to properly connect and disconnect their brakelights every time they need to use them (assinine? Yes. Waste of time? Yes. Your perogative? At least until the state takes them away from a the crazy man.) but leave things like logic, analogies... hell, anything that requires THOUGHT and not the mindless rememberance of code that is easily accomplished through other, quicker ways, to the schools other wise they won't be able to compete in the real world as anything more than bulk coders and we've already established that's the next factory job... simple, trainable, specialized and yet, easily shipped overseas for pennies on the dollar. You enjoy making your kids unemployable and skilled in useless abilities, I'll enjoy giving my children the best in life and the tools they need to be able to enjoy it.
Actually, as some other people cited in other comments, the prices aren't really discounted developing countries.
I'll paste the price of various editions of Windows XP here in Brazil:
WINDOWS XP HOME EDITION OEM.............R$ 294.00
WINDOWS XP PROFESSIONAL EDITION OEM.....R$ 462.00
WINDOWS XP STARTER EDITION OEM..........R$ 126.00
US$ 1 = R$ 2.15
So, you've got XP Home for 136 dollars, XP Pro for 214 dollars and XP Starter Edition for 58 dollars.
The initial salary for an average person which just got out of a BS in Computer Science is something between R$1600 and R$2000 (US$745-930) for 40 hours a week.
So, we get no discount and people earn much less, especially if you consider that IT workers actually have pretty decent earnings for the country's standards, e.g., a telemarketing girl which I know has a monthly salary of R$180 for working 20 hours a week. That means less than 85 dollars a month.
As you might have predicted, almost no one here owns a legitimate Windows copy, except business and people who buy branded PCs (which are expensive as hell).
That's nonsense, 'putting a car together' would be writing the LaTeX distribution itself from scratch or writing the Word application itself from C++. As for the 10-minute tutorial argument, it's *your* guys argument and I must have refuted it pretty well that you now disown it. Why are you guys so poor at rational analogies and reason? I must suspect this wouold explain your passionate defence of dumb solutions such as MSOffice. I have used Word long enough and thorough enough to know what are the user errors and what are program screw-ups. I can tell you haven't used word much, and in fact, you haven't used LaTeX much either, that's for sure. Had you, you wouldn't be engaged in this argument. I shudder at the ability of a parent who's so poor at logic and argument, and so averse to a little learning, to raise successful children that would enjoy "the best" in life.
There are millions, maybe billions of known diseases. Your doctor cannot possibly know them all. He is an expert on the common ones in your area. Odds are very good that you personally have some rare disease, which your doctor knows nothing about. (Odds are it is a minor thing that isn't worth going to the doctor about)
There are over 100 different versions of RSI (carpal tunnel is the best known, but not the most common) that you can get. The best treatment for one will often make a different one worse! Your doctor doesn't know them all, and you don't want to pay him enough.
The only person who cares about your health is yourself. So if you want the best treatment you need to research everything. A doctor is a good place to start researching things, and he can get you into the right person for tests you cannot do on yourself. A great partner in the task of keeping yourself healthy, but just a partnet. If it is important you need to do research yourself.
Warning, when doing research do not get medical student's syndrome. There are many things you will recognize in yourself that are false clues. A doctor is an objective source that can keep you from this problem.
So yes, work with your doctor, and get all the advice you can. Beware though, in the long run you are responsible for your self.
No, writing the word application itself from C++ or writing the LaTeX distribution itself from scratch would be like hand-molding the parts of the car. Next, you're going to argue that no, hand molding the car parts is like hand-making a computer, and then I'll have to argue that hand-making the computer is analogous to smelting the metal for the car because you don't understand your falacies. You're arguing that performing one process is easier than another by giving an incorrect assumption. When this is pointed out to you, you compare the process to the creation of the progress. Apples to oranges. The process is typing a letter/bulleted list/whatever or driving a car in analogy but what you're really going through when you talk about typing the letter is performing the underlying formatting, which would be akin to hooking up the lights that make driving easier... do you now see your mistake? You're not good with logic, but it's funny that you "shudder" at ours. You are the one that's "averse" to a little learning. The 10 minute tutorial isn't "our" argument. It was one guy saying most people won't use the software unless it can be learned in 10 minutes. That's true and it's appropriate. If it takes longer to accomplish something "the easy way" than it would "the hard way" there's no reason to do it the hard way. The thing I'm disowning is how you keep butchering the comparison and eventually you'll try arguing that manual formatting is easy because Word is eating your brain or some other nonsense analogy. Christ, there's no getting through to you, but hell, the arguments have been made and I think that if you'd skipped into a logic and analysis class (I thought programmer types were required to do some kind of logic-based skill training? My mistake. Or I guess I should do the slashdot thing and say "geez, he must be a Windows user") but you keep changing the scope of the analogy which by it's very nature invalidates the analogy. Analogies are fact pattern A is roughly the same as fact pattern B type constructions (I'm fatally oversimplifying, I know, but you don't handle complexity well) and what you're doing is fact pattern A is roughly the same as fact pattern B but only if you ignore all the things that AREN'T the same. And just saying that we're poor at analogies doesn't make it true, it simply makes it all the more ironic that you don't recognize your own ineptitude. Congrats, you just made the stupidity hall of fame!
as the other AC pointed out, J00 SUCK!