Uh, it's not really an upcoming feature since it's coming out STRAIGHT TO VIDEO. It's been getting absolutely horrible reviews. Basically it has nothing to do with the first.
Wonderful. Sure, you're not a MS apologist you just:
No, I'm not.
# Refer to an MS product 2 years from release as "revolutionary". Is that the "Gates Vision(tm)"?
Guess you haven't taken any time to see what is actually running Longhorn and will be upon release. Yes, revolutionary in the Windows product line, just like Windows 3.1->95 was.
# Recount the wonders of product demos that have been shown at recent MS developer conferences.
Longhorn beta builds are freely available.
# Regularly visit MSDN _for fun_.
Not for fun, for work.
# Refer to a GUI as "photorealistic".
This is the term being used for Aero. It wasn't from me.
Look at how many market-speak words you use.
None.
If you are not astroturfing, then at least you have bought into the PR buzz that MS creates through MSDN - yes, MSDN is a marketing outlet. It is not the unmediated look at "technology", "for hardcore developers" that some seem to think it is.
I haven't bought into PR buzz. I have run Longhorn betas and used the technology. You can code 10-15 line XAML apps that will update your website. I like the tech.
I'm just saying, beware. Do you remember Win95? Everything that they promised was doable - it wasn't fantastic. They just failed to implement it. They failed to turn it into a product. And so far as I am concerned, MS may very will fail again this time. It is too far off.
Feel free to assume absolutely whatever you want. The technologies I spoke of, excluding Aero, already exist in current Longhorn betas.
And you haven't even seen this product, supposedly.
Public betas.
The longhorn release is up to 2 years away still, and many of these technologies are still in development.
No, they're not. Most are already implemented in the betas.
Longhorn and.NET are coming. Feel free to ignore it all you want, but when it is released, and KDE/GNOME decide to start playing another five years of catchup, we'll see who's been paying attention. At least we have Mono.
"I'm not sure Linux will ever be comfortable to the masses. First off, normal people would find the filesystem layout absolutely confusing, and they wouldn't understand the whole "install multiple files across to multiple directories" thing. They want programs installed into their own folders for easy tracking or deletion."
You know I'm getting very tired of this piece of "fiction" One have you ever looked through a Windows filesystem? just because the root starts at "C" instead of "/" doesn't mean it doesn't have a lot of leaves, all filled with contents that would have even an expert scratching their head.
Uh, you're actually comparing the Windows filesystem, which uses things like "C:\Windows" and "C:\Documents and Settings" to "/bin", "/usr", "/usr/games/bin", "/var", "/opt/kde/bin", "/etc", "/root", etc.?
Even OS X changed things around.
Second it's called a Package Manager. Keeping track of files is it's job, not yours.
Yeah, but "package managers" suck. Why are people so afraid to implement a real GUI installation/uninstallation routine? What we have now are silly hacks instead of real installers that configure programs, register them with the GUI, etc.
"They also won't understand the "file is a device" thing--strictly a UNIX programmer idea--because they see files as real documents. Complete confusion."
And how many "average users" do you know even have to worry about that, considering we've had file managers for years, hiding the details?
Uh, what file managers are there that are hiding the file system? Users are going to wonder why they have to tell applications their sound card is "/dev/sound." "/dev/input/mice0?! WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT MEAN?!" will be the common cry.
"There's more, but I won't go into it--I just worry how far Linux can go with these sorts of problems, coupled with a complete lack of a real GUI installation/uninstallation API (instead relying on crappy RPM managers and such)."
Oh no let's not- lets bring up red herrings that the majority don't have to deal with, and what we do have to is steadly being made easier.
You haven't refuted a single point I made. Amusing. Next.
"The day you can grab a CD, stick it in, and run an autostarted installer to install a printer driver will be the day Linux will actually be good enough for desktop use."
Automount and loki installer amounst other, but I feel that with the "care" that you've constructed your previous arguments, that linux will never be ready for "your" desktop. So please feel free to adopt a ZDNET position, while the rest of the world passes you by.
And then you tear down a strawman, referencing ZDNET for some bizarre reason, and meanwhile the Linux desktop sucks for another couple of years.
Sorry, I wasn't referring to you specifically, but the Slashdot populace in general. I guess the attitudes of most Slashdotters around here just bug me.
Of course Linux desktops work for people like your mother who would do absolutely nothing more than browse the net and send e-mail, etc.
But for the average person--i.e., between newbie and techie--they'll get to the point where they'll realize, "Wait a minute...how do I install an application?" "How do I install a new video driver?" "RECOMPILE MY KERNEL?!"
They won't like RPM/package-based stuff, which is basically a hack put in place for copying precompiled files to various directories. Hell, the fileystem layout itself will give people nightmares. "Where did my program install to?/bin??/etc???/opt? Huh? I'm going back to Windows..."
...except that your opinion is the same opinion I've heard since 1998. Your viewpoint is flawed in that it assumes that Windows and OS X will remain unchanging as Linux progresses.
Sorry, but Longhorn is coming and it is going to be big. People aren't just going to abandon their decades of apps just to jump ship to a free alternative that still requires hours to get all things working (it's never as easy as just installing it...not even on Fedora, not if you're not a single desktop user on standard hardware).
Where is the ability to download a binary driver from a commercial website and double-click it to install it? Where is the ability to stick a CD in and have a graphical binary installer pop up that sets up uninstallation routines and sticks its icons in the dock/taskbar/whatever-ripoff-KDE-and-GNOME-happen- to-be-sporting? I mean, I could go on and on here.
To answer your second point about the Linux community being ready--it's not, but that won't matter because the Linux community (which really means the "Slashdot community") will die off and be replaced by the new mass of people who aren't obsessed with "M$" and "RTFM."
You're someone who is technically-knowledgable to the point that you get charged with building mail servers. That automatically means your experience is going to be a lot easier when it comes to approaching Linux.
On the level of someone who is non-technical and just wants an OS to maintain a few documents and maybe play a game now and then, Linux will be an entirely different experience. Another five years and KDE/GNOME might have abstracted things enough to the point that it's easy, but by then OS X will probably be OS 11, a second Longhorn will be out (Blackcomb), and it'll still be the catchup game that goes on today.
I'm not sure Linux will ever be comfortable to the masses. First off, normal people would find the filesystem layout absolutely confusing, and they wouldn't understand the whole "install multiple files across to multiple directories" thing. They want programs installed into their own folders for easy tracking or deletion.
They also won't understand the "file is a device" thing--strictly a UNIX programmer idea--because they see files as real documents. Complete confusion.
There's more, but I won't go into it--I just worry how far Linux can go with these sorts of problems, coupled with a complete lack of a real GUI installation/uninstallation API (instead relying on crappy RPM managers and such). The day you can grab a CD, stick it in, and run an autostarted installer to install a printer driver will be the day Linux will actually be good enough for desktop use.
Right now, all the nifty graphics are there to make pretty desktop screenshots for the backs of distro box packaging, but when you grab the mouse and use the thing, the interface violations are so flagrant, it's impossible to expect anyone to use it for extended periods of time. At the least, Windows retains a little more sanity in this regard, enough to be somewhat consistent. And, obviously, OS X would be king in this department (ignoring Adobe apps, of course...).
I was under the impression that Longhorn would be using vector graphical extensively in its UI. Mind you, I don't follow Microsoft hype very closely so I may well be totally wrong.
It will. This is one of the beta builds. I've seen at least three MSDN videos showcasing the technology...clearly, people on this site haven't been paying attention.
All the questions and comments similar to this one in this discussion really reveal how absolutely uninformed about Longhorn Slashdotters are as they meanwhile bash it. Common knowledge about Longhorn seems to have not yet reached Slashdot--no doubt because Slashdot would rather post silly anti-"M$" article when meanwhile, great strides are taking place in their technology. Someone here actually implied you'd need a DirectX9 level card just to run the thing--obviously he didn't know Longhorn supports several tiers of operation, going all the way down to standard 2D like Windows 2000. You can choose a tier manually or let Longhorn decide for you according to system specs. This is just one example of bizarre posts that completely reveal how ignorant people are of this OS--they call it "vaporware" as though there is no information released about it. People, there is tons of info already known that Microsoft has given away freely in the past year.
For crying out loud, visit WinSuperSite and read up a little bit!:P
The same people who whine that Windows XP "confused" people with its visual change will cite endless reasons why, say, their XMMS app should be skinnable.
Not referring to you specifically--just find it amusing that popular opinion seems to always contradict itself around here when it comes to Microsoft. If you're one of the minority that doesn't apply, never mind.
What's wrong with learning to skin a Longhorn beta? Seriously. It's just some people having fun with their betas. I don't see what's insightful in bashing that.
You won't need it, because Longhorn will support several tiers of visual display, going all the way back to a "Windows Classic" display requiring no hardware acceleration.
It will take advantage of what you have if you have it. Of course...Slashdotters already knew all this, since they've actually read what's known about Longhorn, right?
No, the desktop is not "cluttered." I can't help but smile when people call the Longhorn betas cluttered, meanwhile as they browse using KDE with gkrellm and 10 applets running with two child panels on the top and the right side.
This is not the final look of Longhorn. This also makes the previous point moot, because Longhorn betas are technology tests right now. There will be a dashboard, but not like what you see. The desktop will be hardware accelerated and sport a new photorealistic 3D interface codenamed Aero that nobody has seen yet--Microsoft fears that their concepts and ideas will be stolen, so it's under wraps until release.
Longhorn is due out 2006. Basically, all interface criticisms you make will have absolutely no relevance, because these betas are technology demos intended for developers to get used to the WinFS,.NET, XAML, and so forth technologies. You can even code dashboard cards if you want, and Microsoft has the interface guidelines for them online.
It's taking them "another 2 years" because this is a revolutionary release. They are replacing Win32 with.NET, hardware-accerating the desktop and apps (including older apps), vector-scaling everything (including older apps...a few demos I've seen show two Notepad apps slowly rotating in circles and working correctly as Windows Media Player played a file flawlessly), and implementing an entirely new SQL-like search service on top of NTFS. If you watch the latest.NET Show video from MSDN, you can watch one of the WinFS developers do queries for files through the command line like "search for all Powerpoint files made by so-and-so in the past month," and it will bring them up in less than a second. Brute-force searching will be a complete thing of the past. I'm already looking forward to this immensely, because I do tech support within my company, and people are always wondering where their files are. This will make it so freaking easy.
There's MUCH more (including adding and removing RAM without rebooting--currently, Windows Server 2003 only lets you add RAM)...but you've read up on Longhorn before bashing it, right?
Note before I get called a Microsoftie--yes, I appreciate their technology. They have some of the smartest developers in the world working there. Yes, I also run Linux--Gentoo, to be exact.
This has to be one of the most flagrant trolls I've seen in a while.
LinunxSecurity lists weekly security advisories for all the distros--buffer overflows, exploits, and all around security flaws that never get reported around these parts.
Hope that doesn't "surprise" you since it's not Windows software. Yes, believe it or not, OSS software is not somehow magically perfect simply because it's compiled for Linux via gcc rather than for Windows via Visual Studio...programmers are programmers.
That whole network is only opening on four stations...Franken has said his contract his for a year, then after that, in his own words--"Who knows?"
This is just a silly political year thing. Franken's already doing the self-righteous "we're here to battle the liars and cheats" thing, as though Republicans are the only lying scumsuckers ever to have graced the White House. Especially since the Democrats' latest brochure has an outright falsehood in it, claiming that students were kicked off of Pell Grants under Bush.
For unbiased criticism of both sides of the looney bin we call the two-party system, as well as explanation of the falshood described above, visit Spinsanity. This shit like "O'Franken Factor" is a partyline joke that will die quickly.
What DRM is there in Windows Media Player? Or are you referring to that privacy page that pops up the very first time you install the player, requiring you to go through and decide what you want the player to be sending, and only includes options for grabbing song and album titles as well as acquiring licenes for restricted content--all of which can be easily unchecked?
Why don't you reply to those handful handful who actually resemble that strawman, instead of tarring everyone with the same brush.
Handful? Handful?! The majority if Slashdot, as well as the editors of Slashdot. Like I said elsewhere, if my post doesn't apply to you, what do you care?
You'd have to be pretty naive to actually tell me the majority of Slashdot does not fit the situation I described. Everyone knows Slashdot has an anti-RIAA, pro-p2p agenda. I merely point out the double-standard in freaking out when someone violates the GPL yet freely encouraging pirating artists' music simply because you have some sort of baseless beef with a lobby group.
I never get it when people post to say, "You're painting with too wide a brush!"
Obviously I'm referring to the position of the Slashdot editors and the majority of Slashdotters, according to those posts that are always modded up +5 and so forth.
If your opinion isn't touched on by my opinion, what's the problem?
Slashdot Mirror
Uh, it's not really an upcoming feature since it's coming out STRAIGHT TO VIDEO. It's been getting absolutely horrible reviews. Basically it has nothing to do with the first.
Wonderful. Sure, you're not a MS apologist you just:
.NET are coming. Feel free to ignore it all you want, but when it is released, and KDE/GNOME decide to start playing another five years of catchup, we'll see who's been paying attention. At least we have Mono.
No, I'm not.
# Refer to an MS product 2 years from release as "revolutionary". Is that the "Gates Vision(tm)"?
Guess you haven't taken any time to see what is actually running Longhorn and will be upon release. Yes, revolutionary in the Windows product line, just like Windows 3.1->95 was.
# Recount the wonders of product demos that have been shown at recent MS developer conferences.
Longhorn beta builds are freely available.
# Regularly visit MSDN _for fun_.
Not for fun, for work.
# Refer to a GUI as "photorealistic".
This is the term being used for Aero. It wasn't from me.
Look at how many market-speak words you use.
None.
If you are not astroturfing, then at least you have bought into the PR buzz that MS creates through MSDN - yes, MSDN is a marketing outlet. It is not the unmediated look at "technology", "for hardcore developers" that some seem to think it is.
I haven't bought into PR buzz. I have run Longhorn betas and used the technology. You can code 10-15 line XAML apps that will update your website. I like the tech.
I'm just saying, beware. Do you remember Win95? Everything that they promised was doable - it wasn't fantastic. They just failed to implement it. They failed to turn it into a product. And so far as I am concerned, MS may very will fail again this time. It is too far off.
Feel free to assume absolutely whatever you want. The technologies I spoke of, excluding Aero, already exist in current Longhorn betas.
And you haven't even seen this product, supposedly.
Public betas.
The longhorn release is up to 2 years away still, and many of these technologies are still in development.
No, they're not. Most are already implemented in the betas.
Longhorn and
"I'm not sure Linux will ever be comfortable to the masses. First off, normal people would find the filesystem layout absolutely confusing, and they wouldn't understand the whole "install multiple files across to multiple directories" thing. They want programs installed into their own folders for easy tracking or deletion."
You know I'm getting very tired of this piece of "fiction" One have you ever looked through a Windows filesystem? just because the root starts at "C" instead of "/" doesn't mean it doesn't have a lot of leaves, all filled with contents that would have even an expert scratching their head.
Uh, you're actually comparing the Windows filesystem, which uses things like "C:\Windows" and "C:\Documents and Settings" to "/bin", "/usr", "/usr/games/bin", "/var", "/opt/kde/bin", "/etc", "/root", etc.?
Even OS X changed things around.
Second it's called a Package Manager. Keeping track of files is it's job, not yours.
Yeah, but "package managers" suck. Why are people so afraid to implement a real GUI installation/uninstallation routine? What we have now are silly hacks instead of real installers that configure programs, register them with the GUI, etc.
"They also won't understand the "file is a device" thing--strictly a UNIX programmer idea--because they see files as real documents. Complete confusion."
And how many "average users" do you know even have to worry about that, considering we've had file managers for years, hiding the details?
Uh, what file managers are there that are hiding the file system? Users are going to wonder why they have to tell applications their sound card is "/dev/sound." "/dev/input/mice0?! WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT MEAN?!" will be the common cry.
"There's more, but I won't go into it--I just worry how far Linux can go with these sorts of problems, coupled with a complete lack of a real GUI installation/uninstallation API (instead relying on crappy RPM managers and such)."
Oh no let's not- lets bring up red herrings that the majority don't have to deal with, and what we do have to is steadly being made easier.
You haven't refuted a single point I made. Amusing. Next.
"The day you can grab a CD, stick it in, and run an autostarted installer to install a printer driver will be the day Linux will actually be good enough for desktop use."
Automount and loki installer amounst other, but I feel that with the "care" that you've constructed your previous arguments, that linux will never be ready for "your" desktop. So please feel free to adopt a ZDNET position, while the rest of the world passes you by.
And then you tear down a strawman, referencing ZDNET for some bizarre reason, and meanwhile the Linux desktop sucks for another couple of years.
*plonk*
Sorry, I wasn't referring to you specifically, but the Slashdot populace in general. I guess the attitudes of most Slashdotters around here just bug me.
Firefox 0.9 is due out in a matter of weeks, according to The Burning Edge.
Last year:
Mozilla Firefox will replace the browser in the Mozilla Suite soon after 1.5.
Now:
Uh, who said that? We have no plans in the "foreseeable future"...
Dang it. Please, just focus on one instead of reinventing the wheel!
Of course Linux desktops work for people like your mother who would do absolutely nothing more than browse the net and send e-mail, etc.
/bin?? /etc??? /opt? Huh? I'm going back to Windows..."
But for the average person--i.e., between newbie and techie--they'll get to the point where they'll realize, "Wait a minute...how do I install an application?" "How do I install a new video driver?" "RECOMPILE MY KERNEL?!"
They won't like RPM/package-based stuff, which is basically a hack put in place for copying precompiled files to various directories. Hell, the fileystem layout itself will give people nightmares. "Where did my program install to?
...except that your opinion is the same opinion I've heard since 1998. Your viewpoint is flawed in that it assumes that Windows and OS X will remain unchanging as Linux progresses.
- to-be-sporting? I mean, I could go on and on here.
Sorry, but Longhorn is coming and it is going to be big. People aren't just going to abandon their decades of apps just to jump ship to a free alternative that still requires hours to get all things working (it's never as easy as just installing it...not even on Fedora, not if you're not a single desktop user on standard hardware).
Where is the ability to download a binary driver from a commercial website and double-click it to install it? Where is the ability to stick a CD in and have a graphical binary installer pop up that sets up uninstallation routines and sticks its icons in the dock/taskbar/whatever-ripoff-KDE-and-GNOME-happen
To answer your second point about the Linux community being ready--it's not, but that won't matter because the Linux community (which really means the "Slashdot community") will die off and be replaced by the new mass of people who aren't obsessed with "M$" and "RTFM."
You're someone who is technically-knowledgable to the point that you get charged with building mail servers. That automatically means your experience is going to be a lot easier when it comes to approaching Linux.
On the level of someone who is non-technical and just wants an OS to maintain a few documents and maybe play a game now and then, Linux will be an entirely different experience. Another five years and KDE/GNOME might have abstracted things enough to the point that it's easy, but by then OS X will probably be OS 11, a second Longhorn will be out (Blackcomb), and it'll still be the catchup game that goes on today.
I'm not sure Linux will ever be comfortable to the masses. First off, normal people would find the filesystem layout absolutely confusing, and they wouldn't understand the whole "install multiple files across to multiple directories" thing. They want programs installed into their own folders for easy tracking or deletion.
They also won't understand the "file is a device" thing--strictly a UNIX programmer idea--because they see files as real documents. Complete confusion.
There's more, but I won't go into it--I just worry how far Linux can go with these sorts of problems, coupled with a complete lack of a real GUI installation/uninstallation API (instead relying on crappy RPM managers and such). The day you can grab a CD, stick it in, and run an autostarted installer to install a printer driver will be the day Linux will actually be good enough for desktop use.
Right now, all the nifty graphics are there to make pretty desktop screenshots for the backs of distro box packaging, but when you grab the mouse and use the thing, the interface violations are so flagrant, it's impossible to expect anyone to use it for extended periods of time. At the least, Windows retains a little more sanity in this regard, enough to be somewhat consistent. And, obviously, OS X would be king in this department (ignoring Adobe apps, of course...).
What does Winamp have to do with MS?
Next.
I was under the impression that Longhorn would be using vector graphical extensively in its UI. Mind you, I don't follow Microsoft hype very closely so I may well be totally wrong.
:P
It will. This is one of the beta builds. I've seen at least three MSDN videos showcasing the technology...clearly, people on this site haven't been paying attention.
All the questions and comments similar to this one in this discussion really reveal how absolutely uninformed about Longhorn Slashdotters are as they meanwhile bash it. Common knowledge about Longhorn seems to have not yet reached Slashdot--no doubt because Slashdot would rather post silly anti-"M$" article when meanwhile, great strides are taking place in their technology. Someone here actually implied you'd need a DirectX9 level card just to run the thing--obviously he didn't know Longhorn supports several tiers of operation, going all the way down to standard 2D like Windows 2000. You can choose a tier manually or let Longhorn decide for you according to system specs. This is just one example of bizarre posts that completely reveal how ignorant people are of this OS--they call it "vaporware" as though there is no information released about it. People, there is tons of info already known that Microsoft has given away freely in the past year.
For crying out loud, visit WinSuperSite and read up a little bit!
Hence, it being called a beta. :)
The same people who whine that Windows XP "confused" people with its visual change will cite endless reasons why, say, their XMMS app should be skinnable.
Not referring to you specifically--just find it amusing that popular opinion seems to always contradict itself around here when it comes to Microsoft. If you're one of the minority that doesn't apply, never mind.
What's wrong with learning to skin a Longhorn beta? Seriously. It's just some people having fun with their betas. I don't see what's insightful in bashing that.
You won't need it, because Longhorn will support several tiers of visual display, going all the way back to a "Windows Classic" display requiring no hardware acceleration.
It will take advantage of what you have if you have it. Of course...Slashdotters already knew all this, since they've actually read what's known about Longhorn, right?
There's MUCH more (including adding and removing RAM without rebooting--currently, Windows Server 2003 only lets you add RAM)...but you've read up on Longhorn before bashing it, right?
Note before I get called a Microsoftie--yes, I appreciate their technology. They have some of the smartest developers in the world working there. Yes, I also run Linux--Gentoo, to be exact.
This has to be one of the most flagrant trolls I've seen in a while.
LinunxSecurity lists weekly security advisories for all the distros--buffer overflows, exploits, and all around security flaws that never get reported around these parts.
Hope that doesn't "surprise" you since it's not Windows software. Yes, believe it or not, OSS software is not somehow magically perfect simply because it's compiled for Linux via gcc rather than for Windows via Visual Studio...programmers are programmers.
They simple re-released this fixed version that plugs the security hole.
Winamp 5 is merely a continuation of the Winamp 2 codebase, but with the skinning capabilities of Winamp 3.
3 + 2 = version 5. For me, Winamp 5 works like 2 always did. 3 was so slow.
You guys get tricked every day...they use a db tool to repost past +5 posts for karma. Check there for listed reposts.
That whole network is only opening on four stations...Franken has said his contract his for a year, then after that, in his own words--"Who knows?"
This is just a silly political year thing. Franken's already doing the self-righteous "we're here to battle the liars and cheats" thing, as though Republicans are the only lying scumsuckers ever to have graced the White House. Especially since the Democrats' latest brochure has an outright falsehood in it, claiming that students were kicked off of Pell Grants under Bush.
For unbiased criticism of both sides of the looney bin we call the two-party system, as well as explanation of the falshood described above, visit Spinsanity. This shit like "O'Franken Factor" is a partyline joke that will die quickly.
DRM Whore or Spyware/Adware hijackery.
What DRM is there in Windows Media Player? Or are you referring to that privacy page that pops up the very first time you install the player, requiring you to go through and decide what you want the player to be sending, and only includes options for grabbing song and album titles as well as acquiring licenes for restricted content--all of which can be easily unchecked?
I guess you meant that DRM Whore.
Why don't you reply to those handful handful who actually resemble that strawman, instead of tarring everyone with the same brush.
Handful? Handful?! The majority if Slashdot, as well as the editors of Slashdot. Like I said elsewhere, if my post doesn't apply to you, what do you care?
You'd have to be pretty naive to actually tell me the majority of Slashdot does not fit the situation I described. Everyone knows Slashdot has an anti-RIAA, pro-p2p agenda. I merely point out the double-standard in freaking out when someone violates the GPL yet freely encouraging pirating artists' music simply because you have some sort of baseless beef with a lobby group.
I never get it when people post to say, "You're painting with too wide a brush!"
Obviously I'm referring to the position of the Slashdot editors and the majority of Slashdotters, according to those posts that are always modded up +5 and so forth.
If your opinion isn't touched on by my opinion, what's the problem?