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Dan Gillmor Reconsiders Linux on the Desktop
Cyrus writes "Influential San Jose Mercury News tech columnist Dan Gillmore has reconsidered his stance against Linux. He now says it's rapidly converging to a viable desktop OS
for the masses. "While I wasn't paying sufficient attention, the proverbial tortoise has been playing some serious catch-up.""
Happy Trails!
Erick
http://www.busyweather.com/
It's about time people start taking Linux on the desktop seriously. Maybe it's not as elegant or easy as M$ Windows, but it's not that bad. It just takes a little time to get used to it. But after using for a while you realize that it's not so bad afterall!
While this is probably being heralded as good news (i.e. prominent "news" figure endorses Linux), isn't this really just jumping on the bandwagon while he still can?
At least try and get the guy's name right in the goddamn title, OK?
It's all about tortoises! So welcome into our happy family once you get here, Dan! :)
The article likens Linux to the proverbial tortoise, and that gets me to thinking that we should update the famous Aesop fable of the tortoise and the hare to reflect today's reality.
How about this...
Just as the tortoise has crossed the finish line, the hare, waking up and realizing he's lost the race as a result of his own indolence and brash overconfidence, files suit against the tortoise for infringing on his intellectual property, foremost of which is the hare's exclusive rights to using one's legs for forward movement.
The tortoise, facing mounting legal bills and declining support from the other animals, nearly all of whom think the hare's claims are overly broad and invalid but are afraid of being similarly targeted by the hare's legal campaign for the use of their own legs, is forced to settle out of court, concede defeat in the race, and to pay a nominal licensing fee to continue using his own legs.
The hare, and his lawyers, win the race after all.
You are in error. No-one is screaming. Thank you for your cooperation.
Too much attention has been given to linux on the desktop. In the battle against software oppresion, the first front is destroying the onld UNIX systems. Linux hurts the Windows monopoly more by having people who are switching from UNIX to Linux that from UNIX to the Win NT family. Thats where most of the effort should be applied (because thats where technology can actually be compared).
Winning the desktop has nothing to do with who has the best technology of user interface. It has all to do with leveraging corporate power. Once many corporations are united with Linux on the server side, their corporate power will allow linux to take over the deskop, regardless of how good the software is. Apple has shown that it doesn't require a Herculian effort to make a usable desktop on a UNIX variant. Why are we wasting our resources?
IMO, Linux hasn't changed that greatly, it's just easier for non-geeks to get ahold of it. There aren't (m)any new resources; it's just that resources that existed before are easier to get ahold of.
yeah its getting their but I want my installation wizards for programs damnit :) As well as having an easy way to remove programs that I've installed. One more thing though, an easier way to install drivers too. And have unknown devices show up as well if there is no driver part of the install yet. Make it graphical and an easy way to do it at the command line. And distro specific packages like rpm don't cut it. I want a way that'll work with all distro's, not just a specific one. You can install the same program on windows 98/2000/xp. MS did it, now its time for linux to do it.
My Gawd WTF...
"Maybe it's not as elegant or easy as M$ Windows"
Elegance and ease is the key to an effective OS for the masses. It needs to become as elegant as M$ and OSX (or better) to go completely mainstream. If it's not then the average user, like my parents, won't give it a second look.
Evolution or ID?
Recompiling the kernal is not
I'm sorry, but common day folk will never be able to use linux which was made for porgrammers by programmers
I don't know whether to mod Dan's article as +1 insightful or -1 Redundant.
Change view often.
A well thought out opinion is boring.
(and we'll probably have to keep saying it for another three years)
The innovators have spoken, and they like what they saw.
Now the volume will pick up, as more people take notice, and the ease-of-learning continues to grow in leaps and bounds. As businesses start deploying Linux on the workstation for cost competitive advantage and security competitive advantage, there will be more demand of open-source integration - and more open-source programming jobs.
Then come the hordes that are the mainstream users and late adopters. Oh how I hope the Linux community is actually ready for this.
Doing the Right Thing should not be preempted by making a buck.
"Oh... Right, he favors a mac... never mind"
What can he say, once you go mac you never go back.
Evolution or ID?
Linux has a LONG way to go. Let's face facts. In Linux it's a pain in the arse to install a package, to uninstall packages, to do anything that's simple in Windows basically, it's harder in Linux.
Almost everything has a million dependancies, countless bugs, and security holes everywhere (just look at the security lists, just as many holes in Linux as Windows) and Linux is basically nowhere near ready for the average user. I've tried Lindows and Xandros and both have serious flaws, Linux is atleast a decade off of a Desktop OS.
This isn't bashing Linux, it's facing facts. Windows is miles ahead, the Mac is way ahead, and there isn't anybody else who stands a chance at the moment.
When I've tried Desktop-easy Linux distributions, like Xandros, I've found it to not really be Linux, changing GUI is a pain in the arse, updating the kernal, basically doing anything beyond 'point-and-click'.
While the general use may appear easier, it isn't really Linux in that the distributions are easily changed to suit your needs, you're locked-in far more than even with Windows.
This article reads as nothing more than a Linux-oriented Macintosh advertisement.
From the opinionated comment "if you want to use wireless with a laptop, buy a Mac" to his conclusion, his writing suggests buying a Macintosh to escape desktop troubles and attain nirvana.
I'm not bashing the Macintosh as my first computer was an Apple II+, Macintosh 128K (the original), Macintosh 512K, Macintosh SE, Macintosh Centris 610. I love the ease-of-use of the Macintosh and believe that Apple creates the best interfaces. (The "Dock" notwishstanding!)
He is short on specific elements that are better implemented in other OSes than Linux. That is the key to why Linux will dominate: It gathers the best of all possibilities unto itself.
This post encoded with ROT26. If you can read it, you've violated the DMCA. Handcuffs please, sergeant.
"I still think the best way for an average person to run Unix, the super-sturdy operating system on which Linux is based..."
Enter SCO
"Hmm, so they like and agree with this article. Then they are admitting that they use our super secret SCO code! Have at thee!"
Maybe I've just had too much coffee this morning.
Dissenter
"There is no knowledge that is not power."
Star Office 7.0, the latest and most impressive version of Sun Microsystems' low cost alternative to Microsoft Office.
Okay. I'll believe that things have gradually gotten better and better on the Linux desktop.
So, then, now, how much incentive does Sun have now to push OO.o and Star Office further into this key part of Microsoft's bread and butter business?
"Provided by the management for your protection."
+1, Sad but True. I'll go cry now.
There is no doubt about it: Xandros is good enough to give to people who know nothing at all about the internals of computers. I put it on an old Dell last month, gave it to my mother, and she did not say anything; the thing got onto the Net, let her edit her documents and send email and browse, print out her papers, and generally did a nice job, well.
Xandros is probably the best of breed, and they are starting to make it available at no cost via channels like Linux magazine covers.
But even so it's well worth the money (and my firm has bought dozens of Xandros licenses) and comes highly recommended.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
...on Linux in the server room first. Finally ACLs and extended attributes are in the kernel. Core utilities has gone through at least 4 minor versions with no ACL support by default (it's still a very hard-to-find and often outdated patch), and only with the latest ACL patch does GNU Coreutils correctly work with ext3 filesystems. GNU produces nothing that even comes close to Webmin in terms of usability and flexibility in server administration. LiLo is still broken when it comes to certain types of disk arrays in RAID installs. We still don't have a desktop environment that can recognize and set ACLs.
I'd say that the functionality of desktop Linux isn't the issue. We have graphical installers and lots of new and useful applications.
Because you commit suicide immediately after switching...
Bruce Springsteen is singing, in the song, to a girlfriend or ex-girlfriend, one whom he accuses of getting her kicks from "driving" him "down." So, logically, I wrote my sig as if there's one specific girl who mods down my posts out of spite.
Hey, are you her?
You BITCH!
I want my records back!
I WANT MY RECORDS BACK!
You are in error. No-one is screaming. Thank you for your cooperation.
I like Linux on the desktop. I really mis haivng any related groups of Windows when I work in Windoze (tm) and why did MS have to call Windows (tm) Windows (tm) anyway It makes talking about windows (no tm) so damn difficult....
Maybe it's time for Red Hat to evaluate their current stance on Desktop Linux. Last I heard they were saying it was years away after ditching support for their affordable version.
Converging. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
<sig>Guvf vf abg n frperg zrffntr
I just upgraded my desktop from slackware to SuSe and it was very easy. I couldn't see how it would be hard for anyone installing it. The only problem was that I accidently screwed up my windows partition because they made the partitioning aspect to easy. I seemed like it would resize and move my partitions around and allow me to keep my home partition and my windows partition but when I did it, it died, probably by human error. Anyhow, I degress. The point is, if I wasn't trying to do anything fancy, it would of been a simple install.
Also, my wife uses my computer too and she is hardly computer literate but she's right at home in KDE and Gnome. I made a login for her. She signed onto Aim with Gaim, set up her email and went nuts with the KDE themeing. Also, I have faith that she won't be able to boch the system by pressing the wrong key. She even suggestd to her mom to install Linux.
From an technical viewpoint, where is the fundamental difference? What do we gain by people switching form UNIX to Linux? Who says that switching away from UNIX is unavoidable and if not to Linux it must be WinNT?
To take solaris as an example, but most of the same could be said about AIX and HPUX: almost all open source software running on Linux also runs on UNIX, just the same. It offers the same user environment. And in most cases it offers more mature threading and scaleability. Linux is still trying to catch up with UNIX. It has come close in many areas, but don't try to run it on an E10000.
The only advantage for Linux over UNIX is price (both of the software and of the hardware).
Of course I like switches from UNIX to Linux better than switches from UNIX to WinNT. But I would like switches from WinNT to UNIX or Linux much better. The only thing that counts is UNIX/Linux against WinNT.
Remember, the UNIX world (of which Linux nowadays is a part) suffered because of divisions and internal disagreements. It is important to cooperate and stand united against the enemy now. If this sectarism continues it will damage us all (including Linux). Today it is Linux against UNIX, tomorrow it may be XY-Linux against AB-Linux or whatever.
I don't say all UNIX & Linux variants must assimilate and become the same, but they should strive for the same common goal and together create an attractive platform to fight the real enemy.
I did after getting burned buying an LCIII before I got the memo they wouldn't support whatever bus they were using, effectively killing any possiblity of upgrading the sorry-assed thing.
it's still only for geeks. but on the other hand, it's probably good enough for business usage, as I remember google is using linux a lot.
Maybe it's Dan who's actually the tortoise...
Now let's pull up our jackboots and kick his louseridden ass off of OUR bandwagon while we still can. I wonder if ESR does contract work?
I know that I, for one, will be switching in May from RH9 to SuSE 9.1 Pro, and will be recommending it to others in place of the other major contenders (RHEL, Fedora, Mandrake, "Java" desktop, etc.)
--
Power to the Peaceful
I wish your Linux wireless experience had been as painless as mine was.
I bought the $20 Belkin PC-card at surpluscomputers.com. It uses the Atmel wireless Ethernet chip, and there's a well-packaged Linux driver on Atmel's site. I got the "wireless-tools" package for my Linux distribution and dropped Atmel's driver into my kernel, and I have Wi-Fi! Very easy, no blind alleys. This stuff used to be hard. Either I'm getting better or Linux is getting easier.
To the non-geek, here is what this paragraph might mean:
Atmel wireless Ethernet chip: I have to install a chip? Oh great, where do I buy that?
well-packaged Linux driver: Who cares if they send it to you in a nice package? My Windows came in a very colorful box, and I still had troubles with it!
kernel: You mean corn kernel? Or are you spelling Colonel wrong? Huh?
Either I'm getting better or Linux is getting easier: You are stupid because you don't know Linux speak. Keep using MS Windows, it is less intimidating.
Just some thoughts on how far some of the stuff for the Linux desktop still has to go. If you want to beat Microsoft, you are going to have to make things easy for the non-geek (duh). I certainly don't mean to belittle the poster. But is sure does highlight the fact that what we geek types think has become easy is still very, very hard for the average user.
Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein
KDE is the default, but it's as easy as checking a fairly blatant (i.e. not hidden in advanced options for experts only) checkbox to install Gnome too. The same is true of Mandrake.
In soviet russia stale jokes recycle you!
Hahahaha. Windoze! That's clever. Can I borrow some of your wit?
That's Linux (and related technologies) for you:
Whatever the rap against Linux is, check back eighteen months later and it will have been addressed.
org.slashdot.post.SignatureNotFoundException: ewg
Being able to install the same program on Windows 98/2000/XP is because they leveraged the existing code base heavily. It also means you have security holes that affect 2k3 that also affect NT4.
Most of what you describe above are administrative tasks, and frankly I'd rather keep that bit a bit arcane, if only to keep people from being accustomed to "su and say."
Automation of these tasks, certainly. auto-apt looks like it's going in the right direction at the application level, it'd be interesting to see it go at the driver level. But manual intervention? I wholeheartedly discourage this.
Doing the Right Thing should not be preempted by making a buck.
There are very few things keeping my main desktop running windows now. One of them is the VPN client thing. Unfortunately we need some cooperation from vendors who sometimes aren't willing to release a Linux client for their VPNs. A *free* Linux client, at least free to people whose company pays for a Windoze client but want to use the Linux instead.
I'm primarily a network design/security/ops geek, if I can't open a Visio doc I'm screwed. Also, if I can interface with that horrific beast that is our Exchange server with something open source please let me know.
Those are the three things holding me back in the workplace. As Gillmor wrote though, I'm optimistic about the community getting this solved.
This guy does not even keep up with Linux, and is considered an 'influential tech writer' ???
It's soo right, those who really cannot do it go into writing about it.
Like Gillmor, I also have a four year old Thinkpad, and I'd love to run it under Linux. It has 96 MB RAM, which seems about 32K too little to comfortably run most distributions. The laptop isn't worth much to me now, and I sure wouldn't pay $80 for a new operating system. But I'd love to get Xandros for free and give it a try. Any recommendations on which magazines come bundled with a copy, or other means for getting it free?
Fedora Core 2 test 2 works fine will my USB mice, and I've found it overall the easiest to install of the RPM-based systems. (I'm using Fedora Core 2 before its release because I need kernel 2.6.) I had many more problems with Mandrake 10, but I haven't tried the current release of Suse yet.
Error: No space left on device.
Dude, you're lacking in the "how an OS actually fscking works" department. Also in the "I think KDE = Linux" department. The OS has nothing to do with the applications on it. Don't like it? Sorry, stick to Windows. There's no necessary link between applications and the OS. Consequently, there's no DLL hell, where if you upgrade IE, your other applications die because you hosed some internal HTML rendering library. If your OS (including kernel, system binaries, and libraries) doesn't have the functionality an app requires, YOU NEED TO MAKE THE CHOICE to install it. The app isn't going to do it for you.
Drivers are a completely different beast. Try and use a precompiled driver module on a kernel w/o support for it, or the wrong kernel version, and it dies. How many pre 2000/XP Windows installations got hosed by bad or subtly incompatible drivers?
Linux ain't Windows, nor will it ever be. There are specific design and architecture requirements of each, and they're mutually exclusive. Just because you want it, and it's easy to utter, doesn't make it practical or desirable.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
He's Happy's less-talented brother
I guess that depends on your definition of elegant.
If you mean elegant as in "refined", then I would agree. But in engineering there is this definition, which is more befitting to Linux:
adj. [common; from mathematical usage] Combining simplicity, power, and a certain ineffable grace of design. Higher praise than `clever', `winning', or even cuspy.
The French aviator, adventurer, and author Antoine de Saint-Exupe'ry, probably best known for his classic children's book "The Little Prince", was also an aircraft designer. He gave us perhaps the best definition of engineering elegance when he said "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Why don't you just use vpn over your wireless to the PC with the landline?
Yet even now, I could take this ThinkPad on the road and, working around the rough spots, get my work done. I would not have said that a year ago. I call this progress. (Gilmore)
Why not? What was missing then that has now suddenly allowed Gilmore to use Linux and on his relatively old Thinkpad? Were the desktop distributions really so horrible one year ago? Were StarOffice 6 and Xandros 1.x so undeveloped that a Thinkpad released in 2000 couldn't handle simple office tasks and networking?
I don't think it's Linux that has suddenly caught up, but Gilmore. He seems to want to make it sound as though he was right both then and now, rather than admitting that his previous appraisal of desktop Linux was lacking.
I think Linux has come a long way.
When I bought my home computer (about 3 years ago), I tried to get into Linux on the advice of my friend. I bought the $45 book-and-CD with the Penguin on the cover, but it was just too overwhelming (command-line what?!?) and I never gave it a fair shot.
Fast-forward 3 years: While trying to get an old (12MB-hard-drive old) laptop going, I heard that Linux was good for older hardware and went to the local LUG meeting where somebody gave me a copy of Knoppix (Psst... over here...Yeah, you... Try it, you'll like it!...The first one's free... all the cool kids are doing it...You wanna be cool, don't you?!?!). Less than six-months later, I use Linux almost exclusively at home.
Critical factors for the Linux switch made by my non-technical ass:
That's my experience. Every day Linux becomes not only a truly viable option for more people, but also a truly attractive option for more people.
The Dalai Llama
keep your damn command line - I want pretty colors, lots of nifty boxes, and everthing should be accessed through pretty little buttons that look like shiny pieces of candy...
My sig could be your sig!
Windows has the same problem of look and feel. There are many different toolkits for Windows that all use different widgets: MS Office, the Visual Studio theme of the year, Kylix, Qt, Opera, Mozilla, OpenOffice, pre-XP Windows, etc.
All of these toolkits do not use the XP theming engines. X isn't the only platform that has problems with consistent appearance.
At one time, he expressed pessimism that Linux on the desktop would ever win out over Microsoft, but he was always strongly pro-Linux on servers. It's unjust to claim that he had a "stance against Linux".
Similarly with Red Hat: their management made some "use Windows on the desktop for now" statements in the past, and I wish they hadn't made such statements, but their intent was more like "the Linux desktop isn't quite there yet". After all, at the time Red Hat was paying a number of people to work on desktop Linux full-time.
Anyone who has struggled with the current pcmcia interface will find the new stuff much easier to use. In addition, it exposes wireless-specific functionality in its API, which helps writing client software for it. So wireless utility programs should be a lot more common. There will be no reason that the user should not be provided nice GUIs for WLAN setup.
That's great and all, but the problem is that laptop sales have already outpaced desktop sales, and are set to completely massacre them in the coming years.
I've been looking at linux on the laptop objectively lately, and the situation is really pretty bad from a user-friendliness standpoint. Most of the bits I've gathered for getting peripherals and power conservation features on my laptop to function are scattered to the four winds. It's all arkane little tweaks and twiddles handed down through web forums and kernel mailing lists. None of it is cohesive, and all of it is perfectly opaque to the average end-user.
Additionally, a lot of the tools are simply incomplete. The Longrun utility doesn't support all of the features of the Crusoe chips. ACPID doesn't come with a SysV service script. And while the new laptop_mode project is coming along, it seems to be focussing on kernel tweaks to reduce disk utilization, which in my limited experience isn't the lion's share of wasted power on a laptop (for instance, on my laptop, spinning down the drive only reduces power usage by 5%). It also has no facilities for Crusoe processors as of yet.
I'm actually working on contributions to the respective projects to address my primary concerns, so this isn't a normal case of sour grapes. However, I fear that my improvements may only amount to a drop in a very large bucket. It's a big hill to climb, and it's getting taller with every quirky new laptop model that comes out.
Just because it works, doesn't mean it isn't broken.
Personally, I'm sick of these "Linux is too hard to use comments". People keep saying Linux won't be ready for the desktop until it is as easy to use as Windows. Do you even know any "Joe Users"? I'll tell ya this, my parents can't install new hardware or fix what I would call simple issues in WinXP. If a program is acting funny, they're lost. They have to call me or the PC manufactuer for help. Want to know how proficient the "average" or "slightly geeky" user is? Watch Screen Savers or Call for Help on TechTV. Most people can't figure out the simplest of issues. Whenever someone writes a "Linux still isn't there" article they assume that the average user is an expert in all things Windows. The truth is , they're not. So what makes Linux so much harder to learn/use than Windows?
Here's what I think about linux:
1. Installing a program isn't any harder. Windows install.. insert CD, click OK and Next a bunch of times and it's done. Linux install.. do an emerge, apt-get, swaret, etc, sit back and wait. Yeah, Linux is hard. One command to me is easier than navigating to a webpage, filling in some stupid personal info questions, downloading an executable, navigating to that executable then double clicking.
2. Something doesn't work right? Windows way... call your manufacturer or a geeky friend to help out. Linux way.. search on linuxquestions.org or your distro's forums. 99% of the time your answer is already in those forums. Some program throwing out some weird error? Search online, you'll find a ton of fixes. Yeah, Linux is hard.
3. Recompiling a kernel? It's really not that hard. There are a ton of walkthroughs on the internet.
4. Hardware support. Windows has plug and play which is really great... when it works. How many times have you tried to install a piece of hardware where Windows didn't correctly recognize it, or didn't recognize it at all? Me, probably at least a dozen times. In Linux every stock kernel I've seen a distro supply has just about everything compiled as a module. The only reason I've ever had hardware not be autodetected and set up is when that manufacturer explicitly wouldn't allow for OSS support (D-Link + series wireless cards with the TI chip).
So in summation, stop with the whiny articles about Linux isn't ready for the desktop. It is. Many people use it for both home and production machines. If it's not ready for people to use then why are there 78,919 projects hosted on sourceforge.net? That's an awful lot of software for such an unusable OS. If you want to complain that Linux isn't ready for the mass desktop to be used by Joe Doesn't_know_jack_about_PCs_user then I say neither is Windows.
If apple can build a decent successful desktop based on 'unix then why cant it be done with linux? All you need to remember is that the masses need 3 things:
1. Binaries (or something very very automated)
2. Hardware support (which is why apple rocks)
3. Entertainment (DeCSS, and wine really needs to work perfectly)
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
I hope to use linux one day on my workstation. I give it a try about once a year. This year I tried RedHat and Mandrake on one of those Dell mini workstations. I couldnt get it to run in anything better than 640x480. XFree86 has some issue with the video chip and I would have to patch and recompile the kernel or something.
Nope not this year.
I like traffic lights
I'm not sure Linux will ever be comfortable to the masses. First off, normal people would find the filesystem layout absolutely confusing, and they wouldn't understand the whole "install multiple files across to multiple directories" thing. They want programs installed into their own folders for easy tracking or deletion.
They also won't understand the "file is a device" thing--strictly a UNIX programmer idea--because they see files as real documents. Complete confusion.
There's more, but I won't go into it--I just worry how far Linux can go with these sorts of problems, coupled with a complete lack of a real GUI installation/uninstallation API (instead relying on crappy RPM managers and such). The day you can grab a CD, stick it in, and run an autostarted installer to install a printer driver will be the day Linux will actually be good enough for desktop use.
Right now, all the nifty graphics are there to make pretty desktop screenshots for the backs of distro box packaging, but when you grab the mouse and use the thing, the interface violations are so flagrant, it's impossible to expect anyone to use it for extended periods of time. At the least, Windows retains a little more sanity in this regard, enough to be somewhat consistent. And, obviously, OS X would be king in this department (ignoring Adobe apps, of course...).
For those of us who have always used unix on the desktop, it feels quite odd when these reports come around saying it's almost ready.
I have been exclusively using Slackware GNU/Linux on the desktop since late last century. The most noticable change I have noticed during this time is decreasing stability. XFree86 4.x is nowhere near as stable as 3.x (and takes much longer to start up, too). Applications tend to crash now and then, something which pretty much never happened four or five years ago. Granted, they have much more features now.
I first used graphical unix UI's about ten years ago. That was SunOS with OpenLook (XView), and I instantly loved the interface (including the standard apps, MailTool and whatnot). I don't think I would have the same love at first sight experience if I was new to unix today. Perhaps focus has been too much on mimicking eye candy and too little on improving (or even preserving) quality?
...ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
Your computer is broadcasting an IP address. This allows...
You're someone who is technically-knowledgable to the point that you get charged with building mail servers. That automatically means your experience is going to be a lot easier when it comes to approaching Linux.
On the level of someone who is non-technical and just wants an OS to maintain a few documents and maybe play a game now and then, Linux will be an entirely different experience. Another five years and KDE/GNOME might have abstracted things enough to the point that it's easy, but by then OS X will probably be OS 11, a second Longhorn will be out (Blackcomb), and it'll still be the catchup game that goes on today.
He was a key member of Pink Floyd.
The chaotic nature of open source is it's limiting factor regarding interfaces. When rearing children you give them two choices i.e. "Do you want hot dogs or mac 'n cheese for dinner?" not "What do you want for dinner?" Casual computer users are like children and the reason XP seems tight is just a lack of choice. Not to mention the ease of switching between the fisher price and classic themes...
http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist/feb04_pie.gi f
So what's the excuse? People setting their browsers to look like msie to fool sites?? Please... come on. You wonder why there is no commercial apps available like photoshop or more native games for linux..?? That link is your answer!
Kthnx
I don't get it... how is this marked as off topic? Linux has a long ways to go with wireless hardware support... a MAJOR PITA compared to say a Mac where you just open up and go.
Grandma doesn't want to know what ndis means.
Theres XP home and XP pro....
I'd say the same applies to linux. If you want a standardized version that's easy to use with a defined upgrade schedule use Xandros, Lindows, Lycoris.If you are knowledgeable and want more options use Debian, Slackware, Redhat, SUSE, Gentoo, whatever.
There will always be the lack a unified desktop,packaging system, look & fell, etc among "pro" distros. If you want that go with the home version"
Don't complain that it's hard to change the GUI in Xandros, because it's not aimed at you. I'd say the majority of windows users have the default desktop minus say the wallpaper.
Linux on Joe User's desktop won't become a reality unless there's one look, one place for configs, etc. I don't think the average Slashdot user want's that...
How bout a default desktop install that is the same across all distros. Power users will always be able to change their desktop to icewm,fluxbox,gnome,kde. The vast majority of users will get a nice desktop that looks and ACTS the same at their house, their parent's house, and their friends house.
Go read Clayton Christensens book Innovators Dilemma about disruptive Technologies and you will realize that the Improvement trajectory of Linux is much steeper than Windows.
As a matter of fact this is the crux of the problem for Microsoft.
They WILL loose even on the desktop as they are can only move up but at a slow rate. Linux and their MS' predatory practices has foiled them on the lower end, like Handheld and Mobile phones. Sony has then checked on the Entertainment / Game avenue. They have nowhere to go
Help fight continental drift.
Rejuvenated? As in gave it new life? A laptop that is a whopping 4 yrs-old (sarcasm) is pretty much useless with only Windows to run on it? Give me a break. I was using Wintel laptops for professional CAD design work 7 yrs ago... However did I manage?
Are the moderators on crack? The parent post is Insightful not Funny!
Now what do you do with this one ... Insightful, Funny, Troll, Flamebait?
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
"People use applications not operating systems" i think Linus said once. If the applications that people need are available for linux more desktop users will migrate to it. I dumped Windows about 2 years ago. For me, the deciding factor was the maturity of Gnucash. My personal finance software was the most used, if not the most important software on my Windows pc. When it came to word processing, web browsing, email, IM, multi media players, cd burning, etc there were a multitude of choices. I think that is what is most important to me, having a choice. --
2. Do not use Linux as a weapon to beat Microsoft about the head with. If you're not happy with Windows or Microsoft, then email Microsoft about it, don't migrate to Linux as some kind of "rebellion". Use Linux because you want freedom to run the software you want when you want, use it because you want to control your own access to your data, use it because you quite like the way KDE or Gnome looks or use it simply because it might be a lot more fun than Windows. These are all good reasons but if you're not happy to spend some time learning a new OS and it's associated tools, then don't bother.
3. Don't sit back and wait for Linux to "come to you". "Readiness for the desktop" is a personal opinion based on what applications you use in Windows and what their equivalents are in Linux. Do some research, trawl Sourceforge to find out what kind of software there is and try it, read what's included in boxed distros and, again as a dual-boot system, compare Linux software to the Windows stuff you already know. Migrate gradually and spend time learning.
4. Try some of the Open Source apps in Windows first, see how they run there - Mozilla, The GIMP, OpenOffice.org, etc. Find out whether your favourite web sites render correctly in Mozilla, find out whether OpenOffice can import your word documents, find out if The GIMP gives you the functionality you were used to having in Paintshop Pro or Photoshop.
5. Research your hardware. Will your scanner, printer, camera, etc. all work under Linux? If not, are you happy to use Windows for some work still until Linux catches up?
The idea that Linux is "ready" or "not ready" is subjective and rubbish. It's just about giving it a try and either ditching it or working with it and possibly showing some perseverence.
It's all about getting out what you put in, nothing more...
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
I'm a new Linux user too (since November 2003), and Fedora Core worked well for me. Granted there are a few useful packages missing from a the distribution; however, I found the missing ones easy it aquire and painless to install. (Of couse, I practiced installing Fedora before permamently adding it to my hard drive. So I may have glanced over bugs that caused you trouble.)
Furthermore I haven't had many hardware problems with it. My MS Intellimouse and keyboard both work really well on the USB port. In fact, they're daisy-chained via a hub built into the keyboard (reminds me of my old Apple ][ computer). All in all, only my modem gave me lots of trouble - but I bought an external modem for only $20.
I don't understand how everyone's experiences can be so different from mine.
It is impossible to enjoy idling thoroughly unless one has plenty of work to do.
- Jerome Klapka Jerome
"I consider myslef generally technically able (I can troll around on a Unix term), but it is a bit intimidating for a first timer. How do you suppose Windows would be received if the install required editing config files in a DOS shell and hacking the registry?"
Repeat after me until you understand it thoroughly. OEM, OEM, OEM. Setting up some make-believe condition that Linux has to meet that Microsoft, nor even Macs have to meet is disingenious.
And to drive things even more deeply. In all my years of MS. I've never heard anyone once say "Damn I had to edit CONFIG.SYS or the registry. Guess this whole MS thing will never last"
So yes let's hold Linux up to high standards(1), but let us never forget that Windows didn't get were it was by meeting high standards.
(1) Reminds me of the way we treat women. Meet higher standards than men in order to come out even.
From the article...
I could have installed Windows XP, the current (and, I will acknowledge, far and away the best) Windows operating system to date, plus new applications. But that would be expensive.
This more expensive claim is bogus. Dan says he installed Xandros Desktop OS Version 2 - Deluxe Edition which costs $89, the same price that Windows XP Home Upgrade costs.
The recommended system requirements for Xandros and XP are almost identical.
So why hassle with Xandros when he could have just upgraded to XP and he would not have had to reinstall any applications, plus Star Office (not free) runs on XP. He could have avoided the hardware problems too.
Of course this would not have made for such an interesting article and this is must be Dan's true motivation...
Besides, it would feed a beast I'd rather not make any bulkier.
http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist/feb04_pie.gi f
nyuk nyuk
The missing pieces, such as an easy way to connect to my corporate network remotely -- a relatively trivial task with Windows, the Mac and several other Linux flavors -- still are daunting. The way the Linux community works, I figure these will be filled in soon.
VPN works fine on Linux and there are lots of options. Many (most) IT departments don't check for compatibility with anything but Windows when choosing (read: being sold) a VPN solution so the non-win32 users are boned. This isn't Linux's fault.
There are serveral VPN solutions for Linux but many require VPN-over-Internet right to the LAN's door, whereas most weak-kneed IT chiefs want some leased line to protect them from the big bad Internet. Smart? Possibly. Expensive and unnecessary? Of course, this is IT. Nortel's Contivity runs really well on Linux and OSX (and of course Win32).
The heat from below can burn your eyes out
Debian
apt-get install packagename
apt-get remove packagename
Gentoo
emerge packagename
emerge --unmerge packagename
Fedora
yum install packagename
yum remove packagename
Redhat
up2date packagename
rpm -e packagename
In all of the install cases here, the packaging system installs the software package along with any of the dependencies that are required. In the case of debian and especially gentoo, almost every package you need is available through the packaging system. Apple and Windows aren't even close to providing that level of packaging support. Although fink is probably the first thing i install on a virgin os x machine.
Just today, I was bashing my head against the wall, trying to make Linux do what I want, and I am a technical person. I was using a home computer at work for a few weeks, and had installed RedHat 9 on it. It worked beautifully and with no problems. A couple of weeks ago the computer came back home, and I've only used the Windows partition to play games, and install a wireless network card.
/mnt/floppy" command, so I could at least write them to disk.
This morning, I needed some files off the Linux partition, so I booted to Linux. Only, when gdm attempts to start X on the box, my LCD display at home can't handle it (the settings weren't right for it). Is there a way to correct this? Does it drop down to the lowest common denominator so I can fix the problem? Nope! Being a geek, I fortunately KNOW that Ctrl-Alt-F1 will switch me to a console... I'd hate to think what Grandma would do.
I tried modifying XF86Config (being the geek I am) to put in more reasonable sync values. This didn't seem to work though. Redhat also conveniently got rid of xf86config, and the data file containing sync settings for most monitors.
All this, so I could go in and use the GUI to set up my new wireless network card (sorry, I never learned the command-line commands and files to edit to set this up manually).
I never did get that to work. Fortunately, I know the "mount
And this system is supposed to replace Windows and OS X for the masses? Don't get me started on setting up dual-headed displays under Linux at work...
I love Linux, especially developing under it. However, it is NOT ready as a Windows replacement. Gnome and KDE are fine, but some of the lower-levels such as X are still an issue.
John
Parent AC has got it exactly right, IMHO. Attacking MS's stronghold (destops) head-on is foolish. A prime strategic rule in warfare is to attack the enemy's weak points ("Hit 'em where they aint!"). In this case it means concentrating on getting Linux deployed onto servers as fast as possible. Success in this area is far more damaging to MS over the long term, than desktop conversions, because its the servers where MS itself needs to go to preserve its growth. Companies like Red Hat know this. That is why they are not actively going after MS desktop turf.
My life is an open book ... up to a point.
...but there's a hell of a lot of a way to go. I have side by side a Mandrake 9.2 box (still a 2.4.x kernel) and a Mac running OS X 10.3.3 so I'm constantly seeing The Good, The Bad and The Ugly.
I can't see using the Mac as a server (though it does have apache and postfix), and I can't see using the linux box as a desktop. I can't think of one area in which the linux box is superior to the Mac for desktop use (leaving licensing aside; I'm no free software nazi).
I fire up yon KDE (slightly less offensive than Gnome to me) and shake my head and the crudity and the awkwardness. My overall impression is it's the worst part of imitating Windows without any of the "I'm going to make using this easier for you" benefits it gives.
One of the reasons why the linux kernel is so good compared to everything else is there's someone (with good judgment) who can and will say "that's stupid, we're not going to do that." The KDE and Gnome teams need to do the same thing, as do the CUPS team, etc, etc, etc.
You gotta play to your strengths and while this is a long way from KDE 1.0 that I first used with MKLinux 7 years ago, there sure hasn't been 7 years of evolution from the user end (yeah, I know under the hood is wayyy changed). Maybe 1 year done 7 times....
That's true if you use old stuff like Redhat 7.0 and don't install some of the newer package management utilities.
For me installing software is easier (although it takes a bit longer) than on windows.
emerge <name of package>
and then when that finishes (if before the end of the world) you can run your program.
I don't have to check setting x and verify setting y because I've set that all up in advance in make.conf. This means that instead of clicking through a 10 screen wizard checking data and clicking "Next", I can surf slashdot (the trolls get mighty hungry if I don't).
> You've not seen Deviant Art's XP visual styles, have you?
This one really makes Windows look much better: http://www.deviantart.com/view/6349836/
Bye! 8-]
Apps are the driver. All the dismisal, sidelining, & denial isn't fooling anyone. The 'only''s you noted are two of the biggest for the home market, which makes you look even more foolish.
OpenOffice.org is still free and available for Windows.
Couple things wrong here.
"Bingo!! If our parents can't use it and be confortable with it then it won't gain acceptance with the masses."
1-Everyone assumes that their parents (Aunt Tillie) is the "Masses" which brings me to my second point.
2-There is no such thing as an average person. Are your parents an average white person? Are they an average black person? Are they an average jewish person? How about people with average hair? Or an average walk? Do they hop on average legs, and talk an average talk? Average is something that exists in a statistical database buried in Marketing Mountain, and should be treated with the suspicion it deserves.
"I would like to use Linux on all my CPU's but sadly I'm still teathered to MS because of both software and hardware support (software that only only comes in a MS flavor and hardware that is not 100% supported by Linux)."
And this is Linux's fault how, exactly. We ask nicely and the manufacturers say no. We ask the software makes, and they say no. Now how is this our fault? At least unlike other operating systems we sweat and slave to reverse-engineer a driver, all the while the legal noose closing around us. We write our own software and get accused of "chasing taillights", and "not being innovative".
"Though my firewall and servers are Linux, my desktop OS remain MS."
That's fine, just remember no one put you there, and no one is keeping you there.
Distribution-neutral packages? Then you are looking for Autopackage. Autopackage is a distribution-neutral installation system for Linux designed for desktop software (mostly). It does automatic dependancy resolution and real dependancy checking (does not rely on a database like RPM).
We've recently changed our plans a little and we are near a feature freeze and 1.0 release now.
1.0 won't be perfect, it will just be a "it works, and works well". The really cool features like RPM/Deb/apt/yum integration is scheduled for post-1.0.
Please lend us your support. You don't have to be a coder to help us - writing documentation or just being a tester is also good.
We're trying to increase our userbase, and therebefore hopefully also gain more developers to help us with writing code, so Linux can get a good cross-distribution installation system.
That's not entirely true. The dlls differ from one version to the next, and if you try to install a later version of an app onto an earlier version of Wondiws, you'll be unsuccessful. No different than any Linux distro with different library versions.
Drivers don't always port forward to more recent versions of Windows either. Try loading a Win98 driver on WinXP. Won't work if it's a hardware driver in most cases.
Routinely, I have a Thinkpad T21 (P3/800,256M) running a 2.6 kernel with simultaneous povray, xmms (oggs) and xmame (psychic5) processes in the userspace, with Firefox etc idling in the background. The kernel may take a few seconds to figure out the proper scheduling for these processes that are either CPU hogs (povray) or require a stable throughput (xmms, xmame), but after that it just keeps on going smoothly. If I want to switch to a browser, I have it up immediately.
Things weren't bad with Linux v2.4, but the new kernel has really made me feel like I've upgraded my hardware. All this combined with the VERY mature applications that have been released during the past year have got me seriously reconsidering that PowerBook dream. I can't wait to get my hands on the new Gnome
Oh, and my wireless config went like 1-2-3.
reasonable amount of eye candy.
Average users want an interface that is consistent so they don't have to re-learn things constantly. They want simplicity so they don't have to struggle with figuring out how to accomplish simple tasks. They want a little bit of eye candy to make using their computer pleasing to the eye and enjoyable. They also want tools for basic functions like email, internet, word processing, a little gamage, chatting.
Linux has all of these elements, but the plethora of choices in each category is, in itself, a source of confusion (see simplicity).
The one huge issue that keeps me from tossing XP is the hardware driver/compatibility issues that are ever-present with Linux. If we could just see some more headway in that department then the barn doors will be open for the desktop assault.
Linux needs supporting software like Quicken, Adobe Photoshop, DVD playback software (not the hack-and-crack DECSS you can download), and other titles for sale in Best Buy and Walmart next to the boxes of Linux OS.
Really people don't care what OS they use to interface with their computer, but they do care how easy it is to use and what they can easily do with it. Windows just happens to have won the title of "McDonalds of the OS world". Give the masses another similar choice for cheaper and they will flock to it (assuming all things mentioned in the 1st couple paragraphs above being relatively equal to the Windows world).
***this is just my attempt to provide helpful insight into average folks' expectations for a desktop experience***
Is the juice worth the sqeeze?
From the article:
"It recognized our home network, but I couldn't get onto the Internet despite every tweak I tried."
It's obvious he had network authentication (possibly routing) problems of some sort. I've seen this sort of problem on networks with WEP enabled. In my experience (ok, 2 networks, but totally different cards and access points), the passphrase generators in the Linux tools simply don't work. You have to directly copy the key into the configuration file/utility of your choice.
"Anyone that has ever gotten an idea based on any of my work and done something better with it-good for you."--J.Carmack
George Carlin would love this. There is no proverb involving a tortoise or a hare. There's a fable, but no proverb. As such, there is no "proverbial tortoise".
Yes, my only tool is a hammer. And you're starting to look like a nail.
I've setup my wireless card on Suse 9.0 with relative ease and only had a little previous linux expreience(I tried Redhat 6.0 three years ago with little luck).
"I'm not sure Linux will ever be comfortable to the masses. First off, normal people would find the filesystem layout absolutely confusing, and they wouldn't understand the whole "install multiple files across to multiple directories" thing. They want programs installed into their own folders for easy tracking or deletion."
You know I'm getting very tired of this piece of "fiction" One have you ever looked through a Windows filesystem? just because the root starts at "C" instead of "/" doesn't mean it doesn't have a lot of leaves, all filled with contents that would have even an expert scratching their head.
Second it's called a Package Manager. Keeping track of files is it's job, not yours.
"They also won't understand the "file is a device" thing--strictly a UNIX programmer idea--because they see files as real documents. Complete confusion."
And how many "average users" do you know even have to worry about that, considering we've had file managers for years, hiding the details?
"There's more, but I won't go into it--I just worry how far Linux can go with these sorts of problems, coupled with a complete lack of a real GUI installation/uninstallation API (instead relying on crappy RPM managers and such)."
Oh no let's not- lets bring up red herrings that the majority don't have to deal with, and what we do have to is steadly being made easier.
"The day you can grab a CD, stick it in, and run an autostarted installer to install a printer driver will be the day Linux will actually be good enough for desktop use."
Automount and loki installer amounst other, but I feel that with the "care" that you've constructed your previous arguments, that linux will never be ready for "your" desktop. So please feel free to adopt a ZDNET position, while the rest of the world passes you by.
Linux readiness for the desktop is very relative, IMHO. It very much depends on which type of user we are talking about:
... provided it is setup for her by a knowlegble person with all shortcuts right there.
... I don't see how we could use Linux on the desktop. Our server is NT4 and I have been working to switch it to Linux, but with little success.
Total Novice: Like my mom (who actually used to operate a punch card computer for the NAVY), who only uses computers to look for a couple recipies and may be check e-mail can very easily use Linux
Novice: People who only recently bought a computer and are just getting used to how Windows works. These users could easily use Xandros. All they need is easy setup with basic applications right there and good support when required.
Power Users (as MS calls them): This is a type of user who has been with Windows since 3.11 days and only knows how to "work" Windows and Windows only. This type of user does more advanced tasks him/herself and doing similar things on Linux is both very different and often much more complicated.
Science/Edu: Most scientific/edu users could easily use Linux and never look back. They have no ties to regular Windows applications and anything they write in house to scientific reseach can be easily ported to Linux.
Corporate/Business: Perhaps, the most difficult group to deal with. This is the area where MS is strongest with MS Office (especially Excel and Access), MS Echange etc. Also a lot of software used in coporate world is built in house (for security and narrow specification purposes) and porting it to Linux may be diffiult or very expesive. The compnay I work for uses a lot of in house software + Excel/Access
Desktop Publishing/Design/Photo: In this area Linux is years behind! A lot of people mention Gimp whenever this comes up. Gimp (aka Photoshop replacement) is only a very small part of the deal. It is much better then it used to be, but is still lacking. Professional grade applications such as Quark/InDesign, good color management, argg Linux handling of fonts are still missing.
I had never used Linux before about 2 weeks ago, when I purchased a copy of Xandros 2.0, deluxe edition ($89). I was sick of system crashes, spyware, and viruses with Windows, so decided to give Linux a try.
Here is my experience, so far:
1) Install was very easy. Answer a few wizards, and off you go. I chose to install as a dual boot with my Windows 98 system, which is very easy with the Xandros installer. It recognized almost all of my hardware, right off the bat. Easier than installing Windows, if you ask me. It found but didn't utilize my Comcast Surfboard modem, which is connected via USB, rather than Ethernet card(long story). I found the fix for this in the Xandros forums, which was a _one line_ addition to a configuration file. Worked perfectly after that.
Using the system has gone pretty smoothly. I can use Open Office to open and edit my Microsoft Office files (have only tried spreadsheet so far), and the preinstalled Mozilla browser works fine.
On the downside, the fonts are pretty darn ugly, and I am constantly having to increase the font size in Mozilla, as it defaults to too small of a font on some web sites. Not sure why. Also, a good portion of web pages print out really tiny. Not sure why.
To increase the size of the fonts in Mozilla, I tried monkeying with the video card settings and the font sizes in Mozilla, but I didn't have much luck. Pretty confusing.
The system has been *very* stable, and no spyware or viruses in sight. The included media player is much more stable than the Windows Media Player or Divx, which were constantly crashing under Windows 98. The file browser is brilliant--I can see my Linux partition and my Windows partition.
Overall, I have to say the system performance is about 30% less slower than Windows 98. It's just a lot less snappy to browse the web or open the Open Office programs (maybe 20-30 seconds in Linux).
I should mention my system is an old Dell 5100e laptop, 600 MHz, so that plays in here. May not matter much on a modern machine.
Another downside is the availability of software. It may be sacrilege around Slashdot, but I don't mind paying for a decent user interface, a proper manual, and software support for things like accounting software, etc. Packaged software seems like it's a non-starter for Linux--I just don't see any.
On the other hand, for most users, Xandros includes Open Office, and email reader, and a web browser, so this may fulfill some user's needs.
I intend to keep my dual boot setup, in those rare cases I need to run software that isn't available for Linux. Quickbooks and Kazaa, for example.
Xandros makes setting up a dual boot system quite easy for non-technical users, and it's very stable. I can imagine that for a lot of home users, this will be all they need.
If you're fed up with spyware and viruses, and don't want your data locked in the Microsoft Office file format dungeon, nor want to be locked into the constant upgrades that are a part of the Windows world, then Xandros has what you need.
I can be reached at my junk mail account, gregory underscore close at hotmail.
Cheers,
Gregory
"Race? What race? I'm going this way, send me a postcard when you get to the finish-line."
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
Does that hare know anyone in Lindon, Utah?
"To beat Windows, Linux is going to have to not just be better, but have a noticeably better user experienced for the end user."
Yeah! That's why Apple's kicking Windows ass. Oh wait...
Concise description, has done his research & knows exactly what's right and what's wrong with Linux.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
One of the big problems with Linux's hardware support isn't really the fault of the OS. There are really only a handful of hardware manufactors writing linux drivers for their products. So most device drivers are written by kernel hackers, not the OEM. They are really doing a fantastic job with what they have to work with. OEM's have faught kicking and screaming to either release drivers or open hardware specs to help developers. If Microsoft had the level of co-operation Linux gets, they would be in the same situtation (or worse). Microsoft doesn't write the bulk of drivers for devices that work with windows. I hardly think you can blame Linux for OEM's not co-operating.
if linux beats out microsoft in some proverbial future...who are they gonna sue? i think this is one of the advantages of decentralised OSS development. Even if they sue Linus, or one of the other top-level maintainers, *BAM* here comes a fork.
The ability to sell closed source software created using opensource software has nothing to do with being free. It has more to do with leeching.
Yes, but there's one fundamental difference between an upgrade and a new installation. The upgrade assumes that you're starting from something that already works, and you gain new functionality with the upgrade, while not losing the working parts. I've gone from Mandrake 9.2 to 10.5 without reinstalling the whole OS (and yes it was easy upgrading, via CD and the Net). The original parent however is setting up a condition that Linux has to meet that Mac, not Windows have to. All things being equal, Linux can hold it's own.
We upgraded our Slackware-derived desktop to a "new" Slackware-derived desktop at work about 1 year ago. As someone who uses an ancient Linux desktop every day, I assure you that Linux has changed greatly.
For instance, I can get neither OpenOffice nor Mr. Project installed by the ops group, both of which could be of immediate use to my group.
KDE? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
I would have thought this a valid point had I not run into the same problem with Windows 2000 (I don't know how well XP handles this). Long story short I changed the monitor on a computer with win2k on it and the "new" monitor wasn't able to handle the resolution refresh rate combo. The screen was blank and the LED flashing.
Luckily I had VNC set up on that comp so I could change the resolution that way. Alternatively I think I could've pressed F8 during windows start up to bring it up in safe mode, I'm not sure. The point is, not even Windows 2000 offers a simple way out of your problem. All in all I think ctrl-alt-f1 in linux or vnc/f8 in wi2k adds up to the same level of obscurity when it comes to the "masses" you apeak of.
No hay banda
If you're willing to try Fedora, try Debian.
Get the latest new-installer beta. It takes about 15 minutes to install and autodetects all hardware. Select GNOME desktop during the install and it'll set it all up.
GNOME + Debian is a natural pair.
I think the reliance on a UNIX platform is dangerous. It is highly restrictive and not suitable to all tasks.
I was a little disappointed in my OS course at school because it was more of a UNIX course than a course about operating systems in general. I think this has become the common conception.
I would like to see some alternative desktops come out in the same vein as AmigaOS or BeOS. Something that takes an entirely new perspective on the operating system.
Ordinary users barely know how to install/configure software on Windows too. I'm constantly helping people with simple Windows things like adding a printer etc...
Ordinary people use pre-configured Windows systems put-toghether by manufactueres like Dell. They do not install things themselves. Try asking an ordinary person how to configure the XP firewall. Most of them won't even know Windows XP has one. Did you know all the major Linux distros configure a firewall by default now?
Package management is just as hard in Windows. What the hell is a user supposed to do when an Install shield un-install pops up a dialog saying "do you want to keep DLL so-and-so on your system or not?". It's because installing software is so hard for ordinary users that there is such a big battle over Microsoft's habit of bundling their own stuff and excluding stuff from competitors.
So spare me that 'installing software in windows is so much easier' crap. I've seen more Windows systems hosed through installing/un-installing software then there are Slashdot Windows Trolls.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
I've ran into the same issue, luckly I've had enough experiance with the XFree86Config file to fix 99.9% of the problems I've had. What X needs in my opinion is a startx_safemode script to boot in to a lowres, locolor mode.
yeah, i've run into that problem before. I was working on my computer on a good 17" monitor that could do some high resolutions. Then i brought my computer up to the office for a bit and completely forgot about the desktop res being set so high. Well I hooked it up to an older 15" I had at the office and whaaaam crazy lines every where. Forunate enough for me Remote Desktop saved my ass. This was an XP box BTW
See Sig! See Sig Zig! Zig Sig Zig!!!!!
You really need to try a recent version of windows. My mom (who never even owned a computer before '02) decided to and installed XP home over her installation of WinME without a bit of help from me.
Like it or not unless something goes wrong windows does a good job of shielding its users from technical jargon.
--- I do not moderate.
Such a low user id and so anti-linux. Who would have thought? I've looked through some of your recent posts and its quite obvious that you absolutely can't stand linux and think that Windows is just better in every way. So what happened? You were here in the beginning when this site was not nearly as popular but was still about Linux. Were you one of the early Linux haters? Or did you just change over time to where you are now, an avowed Linux basher?
I dont think what you say here is right at all. I have a pretty fancy Toshiba laptop, and I bought a Belkin wireless card for it. Installed the driver, and no go. I consider myself quite technically competent, but I have given up this card on Windows (XP). Had to restore the system to get my computer on the network at all.
Compare this to the Mandrake Linux 9.2 (at the time, now 10.0) powerpack I installed as dual-boot; Install from 3 CDs. After 15 minutes, it boots up with the Nvidia 3d drivers installed and everything working. I pop in the wireless card, and I'm on the net. No installation, no questions. I was impressed.
As far as total installation goes, a good distribution is way ahead of Windows.
-TN
I think that Linux has improved by leaps & bounds recently, and the 2.6 kernel and KDE 3.2.x are very nice indeed. Some things about Linux drive me crazy and need to be worked on: ./configure scripts last night, some files needed are 10,000+ lines of script goodness. NO THANKS! If it doesn't work I don't want to troubleshoot that mess. I'm more likely to look for a rpm that will work.
1) Documentation. Man pages are chock full o' information, but it's like taking a drink from a fire hydrant. Man pages should have a newbie friendly section so you can see most common usages & command line options. Something to get you going quickly & clearly, not written in a reference book style. Also, I played around with KDevelop 3.0 last night, checked the help/manual and about half of the topics were blank or nearly blank. I know writing docs is boring for programmers that aren't even getting paid, but docs are important. And lastly, too often documentation means a scavenger hunt with google. Something more unified would be nice, either a searchable system on my hard drive, or a nice website. There are several websites that I've come to rely on, but I doubt Joe-Linux-Newbie knows about them.
2) Software Installation/Packages. There are several bascially incompatible systems being used, such as deb, rpm, tar balls, etc. You can't even really use rpm's from different distros, you should always use rpms built for your distro. Well I know that Redhat, Mandrake, Suse do some non-standard stuff & patches, but just think of the advantage if you could just grab a linux package without checking the distro & version numbers. Perhaps this is not possible, but something could be done here.
Oh, and automake & autoconf and the like are HORRIBLE. They should be replaced as quickly as possible. It seems like this stuff was designed for gurus in labs & academia, and now we're using it at home. I just don't need the complexity, thank you. Most of us are running x86 systems, maybe some macs. I don't need the flexible command line options for every arch ever made. I looked at the
3) More device drivers from manufacturers or at least release specs so the linux community can hack something together...
pot.kettle(black);
I assume there are GUI-based versions of these installers somewhere? If not, then Linux installs are indeed newbie-unfriendly (which is often confused with "hard to use").
I'm sure I've missed several too. So yes - there are lots of graphical RPM installers. Personally, I like Red Carpet (and it's new friend Open Carpet) and the Mandrake urpmi tools.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Anything I post is strictly my own thoughts and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the opinions of IBM.
For 5 years, I was part of a company that did long-distance wireless ISP all over denver/boulder area. We used nothing but Linux because we found that it worked better then anything else.
Now, if by home networking, you are talking about ease of configuring the network via gui for any peice of hardware, well, that is a different issue.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Installation:
./configure
..
gunzip pkgname-major.minor.tar.gz
tar -xf pkgname-major.minor.tar
cd pkgname-major.minor
make
make install
Uninstallation
cd pkgname-major.minor
make distclean
cd
rm -rf pkgname-major.minor
* Platform independent
* Disto independent
* GPLed
Now go make sure you've got the right version of Window installer. since it never shipped with 98 and is outdated in 2000.
Again, people are accepting the C|Net, Cringely, Dvorak and MS premises of the argument for or against Linux - the OS is utterly independent of the GUI. That is true everywhere. Just because you come from an environment where they're melted together doesn't make that a reality. I can run any number of GUIs on a Linux, Solaris, AIX, HPUX, *BSD, etc. system, depending on what I need and want.
Linux does not have to be a desktop OS, Windows does.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
$unixgeezer_flameon = "
Back in my day, sonny, we compiled everything from source or ran slackware as our desktop os! And we liked it! You kids with yer newfangled installers, yer thrice damned GUI configuration tools, and yer sinful ignorance of the command line, you don't know nothin! I'll bet you lot have never even had to use Pine as a mailreader! Ever had to use a text browser? I didn't think so! Quit yer whinin' and get to compiling, ya buck of lazy, no-good, shiftless brats!"
Don't Panic!
the xerox machine too.
If their Windoze boxes wouldn't work right, they'd be just as stuck as with a Linux box.
gewg_
ok, you want to play the analogy game... Say I want to buy a car, the manufactors of car "A" murdered a bunch of people to make the car, the manufactors of car "B" didn't murder a bunch of people, but car "B" isn't as good. By your logic of "I don't care how hard the engineers worked or how smart they are, only what the software can or can't do", buying a car a bunch of people were killed in the making of would be perfectly ok...
That's exactly why using analogies in debate is so idiotic. You twist the analogy to suit your needs and lose all of the original context.
Of course Linux desktops work for people like your mother who would do absolutely nothing more than browse the net and send e-mail, etc.
/bin?? /etc??? /opt? Huh? I'm going back to Windows..."
But for the average person--i.e., between newbie and techie--they'll get to the point where they'll realize, "Wait a minute...how do I install an application?" "How do I install a new video driver?" "RECOMPILE MY KERNEL?!"
They won't like RPM/package-based stuff, which is basically a hack put in place for copying precompiled files to various directories. Hell, the fileystem layout itself will give people nightmares. "Where did my program install to?
What changed so much to make Dan Gillmor change his mind? I don't see anything that has changed so much on the linux desktop that would make me reconsider anything, And for the packages, you should realy try Gentoo... Emerge rocks! :) _VERY_ easy, all gentoo needs is a newbie gui to browse/install packages and i think it could realy be the perfect solution for pre-installed linux systems
emerge sex
now that's funny. I've got more!
...as honest as <your least favorite politician>
...as funny as a paper cut.
...as swamped with dates as a geek.
all right, mod me flamebait...
I have the exact same problem. I have apps that I must use however there are no similar apps I can use for Linux. I run a Linux firewall and webserver but for day to day computing I still am forced to use MS.
The impact of blogs and Google on making Linux easier. Yeah, Linux is easier to use because of better distros and improvements to GNOME and KDE and the like, but it's also easier because the Great Oracle of Google and the thousands of people out there working with Linux have inadvertently conspired to make solving lots of little problems much easier. That's a sea-change in support models.
Even on the Debian server I run--and I'm pretty swift with Linux--I've found lots of help online for things (like managing a particularly tricky secure mail setup) that has saved me hours if not days of work.
Hey I grab the mouse all the time and use it (well maybe not for extended periods). But I do use linux many hours per day and have for nearly two years. I use it for work and recreation, so you're either a pinhead or have no idea about what you are writing. "The day you can grab a CD, stick it in, and run an autostarted installer to install a printer driver will be the day Linux will" be the day we've been locked in to some jerk-off's idea of software management for better or worse. Believe it or not, most people can learn to install software pretty easily if they're instructed how. There are many reasons why Linux isn't king of the desktop and your sorry excuse for an analysis of the situation is a waste of bandwidth.
Then again the average joe doesn't even understand what a file system is when it is easier to understand than 1 + 1.
All your base are belong to Google.
"It may not be Linux's "fault", but it IS a problem. I recently got a brand new AMD64 with all sorts of NVidia crap."
Did you read Microsoft's HCL before buying that board? Damn, why do they even put one out?
"Until Linux can install on as many computers as Windows, or until you can walk into Comp USA and walk out with a pre-configured Linux box, Linux won't be ready for Joe Sixpack."
Hehe. Well I guess since Windows can't install on PPC it will not be ready. Oh wait you're ONLY looking at x86's "Joe Sixpack" And why should I walk out of CompUSA when I can walk out with Walmart's?
The Easter special at our local drug store is a Kodak digital camera, $90 US. Installation under Windows, if you will pardon the pun, is a snap. That's how it should be, and that is what users have come to expect.
That Linux is getting easier to use is exactly why its popularity is increasing. Normal users don't care about the scheduler algorithm, or 100 different window managers; they care about being able to easily install and use whatever programs they need... and that's where the big recent improvements have been.
Actually, what happened was that Dan Gillmor felt he needed to jump on the bandwagon now. Dan is puts anyway.
"The Easter special at our local drug store is a Kodak digital camera, $90 US. Installation under Windows, if you will pardon the pun, is a snap. That's how it should be, and that is what users have come to expect."
Uh huh. And if it doesn't? Do they head straight for Slashdot, complaining that Microsoft will never make it on the desktop?
The problem with yours and others argument is that the majority of the people posting the "It needs this, before this" have either just started your computing careers with Win98, or you've forgot a lot of Windows history. Windows didn't do camera's with a "snap". It didn't do a lot of things in a "snap". So either one can conclude a number of things. "Things with a snap" isn't as big an issue as people make it out to be. Or Linux needs an abusive monopoly behind it to get over these hurdles. Are people really pining for that?
I use windows for my desktop right now mostly becuase I can't stand how frequently i have problems with Xfree.
but xfree ins't the whole issue:
2. (xfree would be issue 1) Package management/Product quality, etc.
- In windows we have a control panel called "add/remove programs" and it helps us to manage the software that is installed, and the the components of our operating system. In linux we have rpms, debs, ebuilds, etc that we have to work hard to find out how to use. We have no way of creating programs commercially and installing them well. Many of the cited thousands of programs on sourceforge and freshmeat resemble the shareware of win95 found on tucows and download.com. I wouldn't use that software for most things and I'm skittish about using anything I can't buy in a box, with a user's manual and an installation guide. I might not ever use them, but a man page, or the author's sparse quotes on the web aren't usually enough for me. Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying add-remove programs is all good, but I sure think it would be a step in the right direction.
3. Samba- Samba is an awesome product and I'm really happy to see the huge improvements in it since I started working with it some years ago, but working with it on the client side is almost always torture, the best implementation of it are using it within konqueror and nautilus, and they use the non-mounted/mapped style, rather than the quicker, connection based session style, and use more bandwidth and are slower. This needs to be fixed
4. The daunting do it the way you want to approach of linux- OR -
you'll have to read three manuals and spend six hours at tldp.org but it'll work the way you want it so long as you don't give up during the three-day process
- WE all hate the windows "we'll tell you how you'll do it" feeling but a lot of our friends and parents and non-geek specifically don't mind being told how they do it; at least they'll be able to do it. We need there to be a big switch we can throw somewhere where we can switch between these UI modes. It's really daunting to sit down at a computer and want to play solitaire, and you just don't know how, even if I can do it 300,000,000 ways (3hun mil) ways.
In brief: Linux as a whole needs to embrace a new GUI, single installation system that has a GUI manager that is simple to use , improvements in domain-level file-sharing and application-level networking, and finally that allows me to suspend my education to use my computer when it is neccesary to get something important done. finally, I love linux But I disagree with Dan Gillmor, linux will not be ready until 10 years from now, just like Linus said.Can I be a Luddite too?
Influential San Jose Mercury News tech columnist Dan Gillmore Dan Gillmore wrote this submission, didn't he?
Innovators? This is your next door neighbor, joe six packs, talking. Free and open software are not just cheaper and better, they are now easier to get. What you are seeing is the water flooding down stream. The innovators cracked the damb, comerical softoware companies slipped through the cracks and the Microsoft monopoly damb broke. Big companies and private contractors have been making big $$$ with free software. Now it's hitting the desktop and you ain't seen nothing yet.
Then come the hordes that are the mainstream users and late adopters. Oh how I hope the Linux community is actually ready for this.
The people who need to be ready for this are the VARs and others who service them. Microsoft fanboys have been so busy keeping up with anti-virus tools that don't work and crap like Norton Ghost they have some catching up to do. Don't worry, they did the same thing when Windoze hit the big time too. It's going to work better and make more money this time.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I was speaking out of my ass, and many of my readers pointed this out, so I have changed my stance to keep my paych^H^H^H^H^ readers happy.
Thank you,
Dan Gillmor
It's funny, Laugh, or mod me up +6 interesting
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
How big is your Long Horn going to be?
Bigger than W95, W98, W2000, WXP?
What is going to blow us away? The price? The lock in "features"? DRM? The anticompetitive practices? The bloatware embedded as part of the OS to further the monopolist's aims?
You have no idea how much I look forward to Long Horn, so I can ignore it as I have done with MS stuff since 1998.
I knew the tide started turning when older friends close to retirement age asked me to install Linux on their machines.
They prefer "rippoffs" (give me a brake, like if MS was the inventor of the GUI, like if people in Apple and in the FLOSS comunity had not contribuited new ideas to the GUI paradigm) of which they have control better than the lovely featurettes I described above.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I work in one of the biggest companies in the world, and have worked in a few other of similar size.
I still have to see those fabled complex documents and spreadsheets you are talking about.
I am in no doubt that some accounting types may be using MS stuff to its fullest potential, but for 95% of the rest of us, we only need a half decent word processor, a half decent spreadsheet (any will do) and the means to interchange it internally.
Nowadays if you really need an application, then you connect to an application server (Citirx, VNC, etc.)and do your work there.
Everybody could have the most cost effective application locally installed, for specialist applications you login to the application server that has a few licenses of propietary software that is not playing nice with the rest of the industry.
There is absolutely no need to run any product in particular in all the desktops of any company.
The deployment of Linux desktops in big companies is not a matter of if, it is a matter of when, trust me on that one.
Once that starts happening econmics of scale will be achieved and there will be no turning back. I am pretty sure the penguin will have the last laugh.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I have been an avid Linux user since 1999, and have had to deal with many of the frustrations (as well as joys) of using a non-standard OS. When I first started using Linux, Corel had just put out a distro and over 10 days I managed to download it using my modem... To say the least Corel 1.0 had some neat features, but it was pretty hardware limited. XFree86 3.3.6, basic /dev/dsp sound management and an immature wine, all conspired to make the experience less than pleasant. When I couldn't get the sound card to work their official response was "buy the full version, it has more drivers". I decided I'd buy their WordPerfect Academic Bundle, which came with Wordperfect, Their "Fully Supported" OS and a Corel Linux Penguin. The experience was better, but still nowhere where it needed to be. Hardware issues often still surfaced, and being a Debian based distro made installing programs difficult (Many developers only offered RPMS at the time) or broke stuff (when I used non-corel debs).
I later tried RedHat, and finally settled on Mandrake. After about a year I switched back to Red Hat (because the Shadowman is cool and Mandrake looked like something out of Cirque du Solei with its pastel themes) and remained a loyal customer until last year (I actually purchased every other distro from them because I felt they needed the 'donation', even though by then I had broadband). All these distros slowly got better, but things were always frustrating and package management remained a pain... Then Red Hat started pulling this Fedora garbage and I felt alienated. To add insult to injury, the last distro of theirs I tried wouldn't recognize my Ensonique card (vintage 1999, no less; the same card I had problems with Corel 4 years prior) that it had always recognized before... I had purchased Xandros 1.0 the year before, using it on my laptop (which needed to network with the PC's at work), but never used it on my home PC, feeling I should use the "real stuff" at home. For those who think Xandros is just for beginners, I have to say they couldn't be farther from the truth. Sure, I can make a soundcard work under Linux, but I shouldn't have to, and with Xandros I don't. It's like the box says... It Just Works.
Xandros just came out with their Business Edition 2.0 and all I can say is I am finally free to not think about my operating system anymore... With Windows I used to have to think about it because it would always lock up if I did certain things... With RPM distros it was 'dependancy hell' every time I wanted to install something, or write some script to get the modem or webcam to load. With Xandros, I am free to go online and see what's actually on the web instead of looking at Linux stuff all the time.. It's so relieving to just be using Linux without thinking about it, and this is where the other distros need to go if they ever want to get any share of the desktop market. My only complaint with Xandros is when I tell people I'm using Xandros, they don't even know what it is.. These guys need a PR guy, because once someone's used Xandros, it speaks for itself.
I find it interesting that when I first started using Linux, I started with Corel, and after 5 years I've essentially come back full circle. My Corel Linux pengin now proudly sits on the top of my monitor once again for at last the Linux they promised me back then has finally arrived. }:O)
Like if his mom, my mom or your mom are that stupid that can't understand a simple concept like differnet kind of computers.
My mom does, and she is a 64 year old teacher with almost no practical knowledge of computers save point and click. She knows she can't run windows programs, if she needs something she asks me if it exists, and so far all her needs have been satisfied.
It is telling that MS fanboys have to go to the most excruciating and patronizing "examples" to bash Linux as a desktop OS.
That on my mind means it is pretty much ready to go.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
When you install something in windows you have no idea where stuff is put. Different packaging tools in Linux do exactly the same work, so I really do not see what your point is.
If people need to install an application most distros now provide graphic interfacess in which you select a program and click install. How difficult is that?
Oh yes, or you have to type "apt-get install ". Now that is difficult.
What are application installers in windows? Are not by anychance "hacks to put precompiled files in various directories" (and the dreaded registry)?
lame, lame, lame.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
.... is that it is not easy, no matter if you are talking about Windows or Linux.
You are reducing things to a matter of presentation, which in principle means the technical challenge has been met, brin the OSS marketoids.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
And patronizing.
How would you explain to the same person to fix their Windows registry?
Or that a printer does not work for a lack of a new driver?
Or that they need to upgrade the firmware of a hard disk or a computer motherboard?
The lingo of the profession is complicated and arcane, any attempts to make this appear as a feature of Linux is dishonest and disingenious.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
"Did you read Microsoft's HCL before buying that board? Damn, why do they even put one out?"
Nope. In retrospect, I should have, but I bought new computers before without such problems, so I ASSumed I wouldn't have any with this one. Besides, why should Joe Sixpack have to do research when he KNOWS the new computer will work with the OS that's preloaded on it.
"Hehe. Well I guess since Windows can't install on PPC it will not be ready. Oh wait you're ONLY looking at x86's "Joe Sixpack" And why should I walk out of CompUSA when I can walk out with Walmart's?"
But you CAN go into the Mac "ghetto" and get a PPC preloaded with a "Joe Sixpack" OS. But none of those include Linux either. And AFAIK, all you'll see in Walmart's brick & mortar store are Windows boxes.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
May I suggest a variation? :)
/dev/null :)
grep -i "troll" >