You're incoherent. I point out that you've branded yourself with your tech loyality with 'CheerfulMacFanboy' and you retort:
'Says the guy who calls himself "kaffiene"'
What the hell? Which tech company, (or brand of ANY kind????) is Kaffiene?
Jesus, you morons couldn't follow an argument if the department of motor vehicles painted two fucking yellow lines down each side and shoved a sign on it saying "clue this way"
"IOW about the only people who believe in this "personality cult of Steve Jobs" are the people who hate him and Apple"
Or, conversely, the Apple cultists are the only ones who don't believe that there's an Apple cult, eh, 'CheerfulMacFanboy'? I mean, for fuck's sake, I like a lot of tech, but I'd never brand MY OWN IDENTITY with one. Like you do. And anyway, I think the cult is more an Apple cult per se, than a Jobs cult. He's just the charismatic cult leader.
I'd also point out that obviously the market - the independent thinkers who's only interest is profit, not technology or personality - they obviously think that jobs has cult-leader like influence as well, because the Apple share price wouldn't drop every time Jobs is in the news for being ill.
I actually HAD noticed that Apple is not a country, but thanks for pointing that out for me.
"Apple cannot be totalitarian since their policies do not carry the force of law and are not enforced by police powers."
Rubbish. Totalitarianism is a dictatorial style that wields absolute and centralized control. That's Apple / Jobs. Using police is not a definitional part of the concept of totalitarianism (although it's consistent with the idea of enforcing control). And actually, Apple DOES use the force of law (it's squad of rabbid lawyers) to enforce its control, so actually that's very apt.
Are you people actually incapable of thinking, because this certainly seems to be a strain on you all. Is there some defect in the American education system that makes your brains turn off when someone uses the word 'fascist'? Is this some trigger word like "nigger" which you cannot discuss rationally?
You dumb fuck - you CANNOT use that to make Java apps which you can release - it REQUIRES a JAILBROKEN phone.
"You still are fixated on what Apple ships with, not what the devices can do."
No I'm not. I said that I LIKE the devices. As a developer I DONT like the restrictions, censorship and arbitrary destruction of competing products that Apple applies. You are clearly a deluded, lying fanboy, but it would be nice if you at least answered the issues I raised.
I notice that you also have no response for all the other points I raised.
You said: "The reason why Apple Haters are so insistent that Jobs will be back, is that they will have no-one to attribute success to without Jobs there, will have to actually admit Apple might have built a few products people like to use because they are well designed"
I was saying that you're wrong. I'm an Apple hater but I DO NOT HATE THE PRODUCTS. I said "Apple's products, on the other hand, are top notch"
You claim that Apple haters don't want to admit that Apple produce good products. I'm saying this is untrue - I freely admit that Apple make good products. I really like some of them. It's not the products that I hate.
Do you fucking understand yet???
You said: ", I label you an Apple Hater, and you claim it's the guy that you say is the whole reason behind Apple's success is what you hate. In other words, you are an Apple Hater by your own definition. Not to mention Drama Queen for throwing around the word "fascist"."
Actually, you didn't label me an Apple hater, I self-identified as one. So yes, I am an Apple hater by my own definition. Did it look like I was trying to deny it? Do you have comprehension problems? Should I type slower for you?
And WTF is your fascist attitude about using the word 'fascist'? It has a perfectly good meaning, it's the best word for describing totalitarian world views that brook no opposing thoughts and value the collective (the party, the cult). Perfectly fitting. What's your malfunction? You Apple zealots seem awfully keen on defining opposing ideas out of existence rather than thinking about them. But that's rather consistent with a cult.
You say "A common trait of the Apple Hater is the willful ignorance of the reality of Apple gear - I'm an iOS developer, none of what you say is true. They long ago removed the restrictions to not use things like mono or the flash compilers for iPhone development, for example. Jobs doesn't decide what I do with my devices, at all - what's sad is that you are promoting the misunderstanding that is the case."
Ah, but THEY DID IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Just because the dictates were rescinded doesn't mean that they didn't exist in the first place. You yourself tacitly admit that these restriction existed = this is what I mean. They should NEVER EVER have existed in the first place. The fact that the policeman stops beating you with a truncheon doesn't make him now your friend.
You also conveniently (dishonestly!) leave out the fact that you still can't use Java on the iPhone.
Throw in Apple's capricious use of the app store to destroy competing products, censor ideas it doesn't like, unjustly profit from other people's business (30% poll tax on paid downloadable content!)... I'd rather dangle my balls into a rat trap than employ one of Job's poisoned environments. I'm not willing to have my business killed on the offhand and unjustified whim of a prick like Jobs and Apple's pack of trained lawyers.
I understand what the word means. I used it precisely because of it's meaning.
I'm referring to the Job's role in maintaining the Apple cult. The view that there's one way to do it - Apple's way and no other. It is a totalitarian ideology. It permits no criticism and the cult members leap in to defend the cult against all opposing points of view.
That's a fascist world view.
As someone with a degree in Philosophy who has studied Politicial Science, I know perfectly well what the word 'fascist' means.
I like the way you try to define opposing views as not worthy of comment rather than thinking about them. Good little cult member.
That's rubbish. I hate Apple but that's because I hate Jobs and his fascist tendencies. Apple's products, on the other hand, are top notch. I'd by one if they weren't pushed by an litigious fascist arsehole like Jobs.
OSX really appeals to me and I suppose iPhones are ok (not really my kind of thing) but I won't ever buy an Apple product because I will not go where I am not free to use the device as I like, develop with whatever tools I like and not have the capricious whim of Jobs decide how or what I can do.
The guy is a fascist asshole. I personally wouldn't wish cancer on anyone - even a fascist asshole - but the fact remains that he's a jerk. Being ill doesn't make him angelic and above criticism or (god forbid) mere comment - as is the case here. Job's health is news for nerds because he is the leader of a cult that has a lot of influence in the IT world. If he dies, the effects on the Apple cult will be profound. Mentioning any of this isn't evil, bad, perverted or whatever, it's just news.
Unless you feel better than everyone else by posting that sanctimonious crap.
The trouble is that/. readers think that the US market is the only market. It's not, of course. Nokia make a tonne of sales now in the rest of the world. It's not obvious to me that all phones will be smart phones in the future, but if I were Nokia, I'd like to have a strategy for that market if that turns out to be how things go.
For now, however, Nokia's cheap & ubiquitous approach has served them very well indeed.
The problem here is that/. is peopled with newbs who think that because they've hacked together a web-app in PHP, they understand all of what web development entails. The multi product, multiple system integration tasks you mention represent a business problem that these guys have never even seen before so they don't have the first idea what these ESB, SOA-type systems are developed to do. Hence, in ignorance, they claim that they do nothing at all but add redundant layers to a solution.
You dumb fuck, over half of those ARE Java powered... WTF happened to/. having posters who knew something about tech??
Now that you've proved the initial assertion you were trying to argue against (dickhead), answer the contrary question: how many PHP sites in that top 10?
Yeah, sure, all those banks, Google, Twitter... PHP through and through.
PHP powers a *lot* of small hack websites. If running forums is your idea of the important parts of the web, then sure, yeah PHP powers a tonne of that. Java powers things that are actually used on an industrial scale, require reliability and security.
Are you shocked that people who have an axe to grind about Java are using this to criticise the language? Has slashdot *ever* given Java a fair go? I think not.
Slashdot Mirror
You're telling me which words I'm allowed to use and which I'm not, and *I'm* being self important?
Well! We've established that I'm ill-educated and I use BAD WORDS. Do you have anything to offer on what we were discussing?
You're incoherent. I point out that you've branded yourself with your tech loyality with 'CheerfulMacFanboy' and you retort:
'Says the guy who calls himself "kaffiene"'
What the hell? Which tech company, (or brand of ANY kind????) is Kaffiene?
Jesus, you morons couldn't follow an argument if the department of motor vehicles painted two fucking yellow lines down each side and shoved a sign on it saying "clue this way"
"IOW about the only people who believe in this "personality cult of Steve Jobs" are the people who hate him and Apple"
Or, conversely, the Apple cultists are the only ones who don't believe that there's an Apple cult, eh, 'CheerfulMacFanboy'? I mean, for fuck's sake, I like a lot of tech, but I'd never brand MY OWN IDENTITY with one. Like you do. And anyway, I think the cult is more an Apple cult per se, than a Jobs cult. He's just the charismatic cult leader.
I'd also point out that obviously the market - the independent thinkers who's only interest is profit, not technology or personality - they obviously think that jobs has cult-leader like influence as well, because the Apple share price wouldn't drop every time Jobs is in the news for being ill.
QED.
I actually HAD noticed that Apple is not a country, but thanks for pointing that out for me.
"Apple cannot be totalitarian since their policies do not carry the force of law and are not enforced by police powers."
Rubbish. Totalitarianism is a dictatorial style that wields absolute and centralized control. That's Apple / Jobs. Using police is not a definitional part of the concept of totalitarianism (although it's consistent with the idea of enforcing control). And actually, Apple DOES use the force of law (it's squad of rabbid lawyers) to enforce its control, so actually that's very apt.
Are you people actually incapable of thinking, because this certainly seems to be a strain on you all. Is there some defect in the American education system that makes your brains turn off when someone uses the word 'fascist'? Is this some trigger word like "nigger" which you cannot discuss rationally?
I know what fascism is perfectly well, in the historical context and as a concept in itself.
Your wishing pain and death on me does you proud. Good job. You Apple fans are such lovely, reasonable people. All hail the cult!
Isn't it Ironic?
You dumb fuck - you CANNOT use that to make Java apps which you can release - it REQUIRES a JAILBROKEN phone.
"You still are fixated on what Apple ships with, not what the devices can do."
No I'm not. I said that I LIKE the devices. As a developer I DONT like the restrictions, censorship and arbitrary destruction of competing products that Apple applies. You are clearly a deluded, lying fanboy, but it would be nice if you at least answered the issues I raised.
I notice that you also have no response for all the other points I raised.
Seriously. What. The. Fuck.
Use the magic word and you lose!!!!
Great argument - good points, well made. Hope you feel smart.
You said: "The reason why Apple Haters are so insistent that Jobs will be back, is that they will have no-one to attribute success to without Jobs there, will have to actually admit Apple might have built a few products people like to use because they are well designed"
I was saying that you're wrong. I'm an Apple hater but I DO NOT HATE THE PRODUCTS. I said "Apple's products, on the other hand, are top notch"
You claim that Apple haters don't want to admit that Apple produce good products. I'm saying this is untrue - I freely admit that Apple make good products. I really like some of them. It's not the products that I hate.
Do you fucking understand yet???
You said: ", I label you an Apple Hater, and you claim it's the guy that you say is the whole reason behind Apple's success is what you hate.
In other words, you are an Apple Hater by your own definition. Not to mention Drama Queen for throwing around the word "fascist"."
Actually, you didn't label me an Apple hater, I self-identified as one. So yes, I am an Apple hater by my own definition. Did it look like I was trying to deny it? Do you have comprehension problems? Should I type slower for you?
And WTF is your fascist attitude about using the word 'fascist'? It has a perfectly good meaning, it's the best word for describing totalitarian world views that brook no opposing thoughts and value the collective (the party, the cult). Perfectly fitting. What's your malfunction? You Apple zealots seem awfully keen on defining opposing ideas out of existence rather than thinking about them. But that's rather consistent with a cult.
You say "A common trait of the Apple Hater is the willful ignorance of the reality of Apple gear - I'm an iOS developer, none of what you say is true. They long ago removed the restrictions to not use things like mono or the flash compilers for iPhone development, for example. Jobs doesn't decide what I do with my devices, at all - what's sad is that you are promoting the misunderstanding that is the case."
Ah, but THEY DID IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Just because the dictates were rescinded doesn't mean that they didn't exist in the first place. You yourself tacitly admit that these restriction existed = this is what I mean. They should NEVER EVER have existed in the first place. The fact that the policeman stops beating you with a truncheon doesn't make him now your friend.
You also conveniently (dishonestly!) leave out the fact that you still can't use Java on the iPhone.
Throw in Apple's capricious use of the app store to destroy competing products, censor ideas it doesn't like, unjustly profit from other people's business (30% poll tax on paid downloadable content!)... I'd rather dangle my balls into a rat trap than employ one of Job's poisoned environments. I'm not willing to have my business killed on the offhand and unjustified whim of a prick like Jobs and Apple's pack of trained lawyers.
Not me - I'm reading through /. proper
I understand what the word means. I used it precisely because of it's meaning.
I'm referring to the Job's role in maintaining the Apple cult. The view that there's one way to do it - Apple's way and no other. It is a totalitarian ideology. It permits no criticism and the cult members leap in to defend the cult against all opposing points of view.
That's a fascist world view.
As someone with a degree in Philosophy who has studied Politicial Science, I know perfectly well what the word 'fascist' means.
I like the way you try to define opposing views as not worthy of comment rather than thinking about them. Good little cult member.
That's rubbish. I hate Apple but that's because I hate Jobs and his fascist tendencies. Apple's products, on the other hand, are top notch. I'd by one if they weren't pushed by an litigious fascist arsehole like Jobs.
OSX really appeals to me and I suppose iPhones are ok (not really my kind of thing) but I won't ever buy an Apple product because I will not go where I am not free to use the device as I like, develop with whatever tools I like and not have the capricious whim of Jobs decide how or what I can do.
I see the Apple fan boys have mod points
Actually, most of the posts I've read have been holier than thou sermons like yours.
grow up
The guy is a fascist asshole. I personally wouldn't wish cancer on anyone - even a fascist asshole - but the fact remains that he's a jerk. Being ill doesn't make him angelic and above criticism or (god forbid) mere comment - as is the case here. Job's health is news for nerds because he is the leader of a cult that has a lot of influence in the IT world. If he dies, the effects on the Apple cult will be profound. Mentioning any of this isn't evil, bad, perverted or whatever, it's just news.
Unless you feel better than everyone else by posting that sanctimonious crap.
The trouble is that /. readers think that the US market is the only market. It's not, of course. Nokia make a tonne of sales now in the rest of the world. It's not obvious to me that all phones will be smart phones in the future, but if I were Nokia, I'd like to have a strategy for that market if that turns out to be how things go.
For now, however, Nokia's cheap & ubiquitous approach has served them very well indeed.
In twenty years of software engineering, I have never, ever, seen that to be the case.
I can see why he'd think you were a hobbyist - you are remarkably ill-informed.
What enterprise level solutions have you developed? What problems / what technologies?
The problem here is that /. is peopled with newbs who think that because they've hacked together a web-app in PHP, they understand all of what web development entails. The multi product, multiple system integration tasks you mention represent a business problem that these guys have never even seen before so they don't have the first idea what these ESB, SOA-type systems are developed to do. Hence, in ignorance, they claim that they do nothing at all but add redundant layers to a solution.
Hating Java is a religion here.
You dumb fuck, over half of those ARE Java powered... WTF happened to /. having posters who knew something about tech??
Now that you've proved the initial assertion you were trying to argue against (dickhead), answer the contrary question: how many PHP sites in that top 10?
It's also not true - all JSP sites render as Servlets, as I think most Java web technologies do.
Yeah, sure, all those banks, Google, Twitter... PHP through and through.
PHP powers a *lot* of small hack websites. If running forums is your idea of the important parts of the web, then sure, yeah PHP powers a tonne of that. Java powers things that are actually used on an industrial scale, require reliability and security.
Are you shocked that people who have an axe to grind about Java are using this to criticise the language? Has slashdot *ever* given Java a fair go? I think not.
I'd rather reload than play a shooter on rails like Half Life 2. YMMV