Love of money is the root of all evil. Corporations exist because of the love of money. Their primary goal in life is to make more money. Corporations routinely put profits over the lives of people.
Corporations are immortal soul-less beings invested the same rights as being with souls.
I don't know that sounds pretty evil to me. Do you think jesus would be a CEO of a corporation?
"What matters is that IE has that browser dominance, that people are not going to switch back just because some geek tells them their browser is technically inferior. Nor do they crave standards compliance: that just means that other browsers don't render all their IE-specific web apps "correctly"."
People will switch when people like you and me install mozilla on their machine and configure it for them.
A properly configured mozilla stops popups, flash ads, blinking ads and makes the browsing experience more pleasant.
Install Mozilla for your friends, they will thank you for it many times over.
"Would you care to cite one who has called for murder of Muslim or any non-Christian women and childrem,"
They don't word it like the muslims do because they are more sophisticated in their rhetoric but make no mistake they are calling for a jihad every day. Although some of them do call for a religious war most of them are more clever about it. For example they will say that every single arab in the world shares the blame for 9/11 and then they will say that those responsible should be killed.
Also remember they don't have to call for the slaughter of the muslims now because when jesus comes back he will kill all of them anyway. All they have to do is to fulfill the core events of revelation and all the muslims, budhists and other non believers will be killed by god himself.
Just google for the apocalypse and you will get a full idea how important the book of revelations is to christians.
"2) The price of war for Bush was that he sold out Israel to Arabs, basically helping them to gain control of Jerusalem from Jews in the long run."
You are way off. When the dust settles israel will have full control over jerusalem and somewhere around 90% of the settlements on the west bank and gaza will remain.
Bush is a born again christian. For him it's crucial that the jews return to israel so that jesus can return. He is doing his best to usher in the apocalypse.
If you watch TV and listen to the representives of the republican party and it's affiliates (those so called think tanks) you will see that they are 100% behind israel. Ariel Sharon will call the shots in the so called "roadmap" just like he has been calling the shots about the entire middle east foreign policy.
One grat thing about this war is that americans can no longer lie to themselves about what a shining city on hill and beacon for justice and liberty they are.
They now have to admit to themselves that they are just another empire committing acts of evil in order make themselves fatter and richer.
I am glad that you no longer entertain any delisions of grandeur about the "american experiment" and have come to the realization that you are no different then the slew of bastards that ran the soviet union for decades.
"That doesn't prove that war kills more than it saves whatsoever. For all you know, not entering the war could have resulted in 100X more deaths. My original statement stands. War can sometimes save more lives."
The reality is what it is. We entered WW2, we defeated germany and japan, we gave birth to SOviet union, china and north korea. Those entitites killed many more people then hitler all across the globe and subjugated billions of people under opressive regimes. In the case of WW2 our involvement resulted in MORE people being killed and LESS freedom in the world.
"So the US wants to target the ones that benefit them the most first. So what. Noone ever said they were altruists."
You said it. You said we were there to free the people. You said it was immoral to let people suffer under opression. I am glad now that you see things my way.
"If you're an american you're under the control of a US "official". Sucks that you aren't under the control of Saddam instead doesn't it?"
It's not the same and you know it. Don't resort to such simplistic arguments people might think you don't know any better.
"Where the hell did you get a figure of tens of thousands?"
More then a thousand civillians were killed. I figure if we did no better then kill 10 solders for every civillian we probably suck ass. The real figure is probably hundreds of thousands killed but we'll never know because we don't have free press in the US.
"Where is it now?"
Every single oil well is now under the control of the US military. If an iraqui tries to enter one they get killed.
"You say you should never kill no matter what but yet you support the assassination of Saddam and support complancency when it kills. I am not the one who has such a black/white view on war."
Once again you are lying about what I said. It does not help your argument when you do that.
"Care to explain how you have seem to have concluded that atrocities wouldn't of happened anyway?"
It's impossible to know what could have happened. But we do know what did happen. The germans and the japanese lost. The russians won and formed the soviet union which opressed and killed people for decades afterwards. China after the japanese left did the same thing. North korea ditto.
The facts are indisputable. Defeating japan and germany did not result in the stop of the killings and in many cases led to countless more deaths.
Reality sucks huh?
"So you think Saddam's regieme would have fallen with his assassination?"
Yes I do. Saddams regime was a cult of personality. The assasination of a dozen people would have led to a collapse of the baath party apparatus. We could have done other things too. Invasion should have been the last thing we tried not the first.
"So if we can't fix them all we can't fix one right?"
Yes that's right. You can't only fix the ones where you can take over the oil wells. Otherwise people might question your motives.
"They weren't invaded or killed."
Yes they were. Did you watch the news? It was all over the TV. You must have seen bombs falling and the US army driving across the countryside.
"They were being freeed from Saddam."
They were freed from saddam and put under the control of some US "official". Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
". I guess if your family was being taken hostage by madmen who wouldn't negotiate and was cutting their fingers off one by one you would advocate more negotiations"
"They're not being killed on purpose and noone has taken their valuables."
I am sure that the tens of thousands of dead humans and their families feel better because it was not "done on purpose". Why the hell did we drop bombs if we were not "intending" to kill people?
Oh yes I do believe that oil is valuable and we did take it.
"Funny how you think it's immoral to kill people but that it's a-ok to sit idly by and watch them being killed but do nothing even though you have the power to do something about it."
People are being killed all over the world right now and you are sitting around not doing anything about it. I guess that means you are immoral. How can you stand idly by while people are being killed in africa? Shame on you!.
Nice to know that we are no worse then anybody else. It's always nice to see someone who sets the bar so low for themselves. "Look everybody we are no worse then them!" Whoo Hooo.
"Being only concerned about your own interests at the expense of other people's isn't even evil, its just a narrow minded form of self-preservation"
OK So we have different definitions of evil. To you being only concerned about your own self interest at the expense of other people is not evil. To me it is.
"Yet thats not even what we do."
Yes it is.
"When we look after our own interests we by default indirectly also look after the interests of the rest of the world."
That's just ridiculus on the face it.
"In order to create a true global economy that can benefit all the people/investors/workers/citizens of the world we first have to make the world a safe place."
Yes right whatever.
"That involves instilling order. And yes those who wish to live outside this order will scream bloody murder and label us warmongering bloodthirsty pigs."
You know people don't like to be killed, they don't like to have their oil taken away, they don't like to be invaded, they don't like to have your will imposed on them. Go figure.
"In time they will look back and be thankful that the US was not an isolationist hyperpower, but one that fully engaged the world and benevolently used its Hegemony to create a worldwide Pax Americana."
You know this sounds a hell of a lot like what hitler said.
"Whether the rest of the world wishes right now for such an outcome to occur is wholly irrelevant."
that's right. We will kill anybody who disagrees with that. It's our world to do as we please. All people are our slaves, all their resources belong to us. Our way or the highway.
It's frightning how evil this country has gotten. The corruption of the amrican psche is now complete. Worship power, subjugate people to your will, take away their shit and kill them if they disagree.
"How interesting. Are you you saying that less people would have died if the US didn't enter WW2?"
Why yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Go pick up a history book and read about the murders that happened in Soviet Russia and China.
"They derserve more freedom than they had. We can't just give them total freedom a month after the fall of a regieme. That would only make way for a possible worse and more corrupt regieme"
They deserve freedom period. Not half a freedom, not some freedom, not a little bit of freedom. They will never be free because we won't let them.
"They weren't free people before this started. They're now more free than they were before. Over time they will get more and more freedon. Just like Japan. Just like Germany"
No because they will never again regain control over their natural resources. They will never be able to vote for whoever they want.
"Now tell me, how do you suppose we can give it to them without invading and taking down the current regieme? "
Why yes I do think it was possible to do it without taking over the oil wells. I do think it was possible to do it without bombing and invading and occupying them.
"What you want is for the US to never invade in the first place and permit the Iraqi people (many of whom asked for our help) to continue living under Saddam."
Liar. It does not help when you resort to lying. Stick to things I said and stop lying about it and stop putting words in my mouth. It makes your arguments look worthless when you resort to lying about what I said.
"Tell me, how do you remove Saddam from power (and believe me, Iraqis wouldn't be free until he is) without resorting to violence?"
Well gee how about just assassinating the son of a bitch I think that might have worked. We could have assasinated a few dozen people and that would have been that. You think Israel might have helped us with that one? How about Turkey? Even the Russians would have helped with that one. It would be relatively bloodless.
"Do you sit around trying to convince the dictator to be "nice" for the next 50 years?"
First of all that is happening all over the world and yet I don't see you advocating invading every two bit country in the world.
Now to answer your questions. I WOULD NOT INVADE THEM AND KILL THEM AND TAKE AWAY THEIR SHIT. I would find a way to make them truly free and not deny them the same rights that you and I have. I would not make them my puppets.
Let me say this again. It is wrong and immoral to kill people and take away their valuables.
"LOL. You're more ignorant than I thought. I guess you think the US should never have entered WW2? Complacency can kill more people than war can."
Did you read my post? As a consequence of us entering WW2 we gave birth to soviet russia and communist china. Together those two regimes killed more people then hitler. We caused more death then we prevented. Have you read any history at all? Are you denying that the soviet union and china are murderous regimes? How many chinese were killed and tortured?
"You idiot. Do you think you are free? Noone is ever totally free but they are *more* free than they were under Saddam."
Why repeat your same morally corrupt argument. Why not try to make the iraquis as free as us? Don't they deserve more freedom then we are giving them? Don't they deserve the same degree of freedom that exists in israel, turkey, europe and america?
"Oh sure. I guess woman are still beaten to death by the government for showing their faces. I guess they're still blowing up 2000 year old buddahs too."
Yes they are. Exactly how ignorant are you. Karzai is the president of Kabul, the rest of afghanistan is being run by warlords. Karzai is only alive because he is being guraded by US secret service.
"So we're looting Iraq now? Well, I guess better us than Saddam. LOL."
Yes we are. We have taken their oil wells and have taken over vast tracks of land that we will use to build permanent military bases on.
You keep making the same argument, it's better if we steal their shit then saddam, it's better if they are under our own control then saddams, it's better if they live under our rule then saddams. I don't think anybody is arguing that. I am arguing that it's better if we didn't take anything and they were free people. Why don't the iraquis deserve the same degree of freedom that you have? Why do they have to be your slaves, why do you have to steal their shit? Doesn't it bother you that your govt is stealing shit and subjugating people to it's will? If so why not?
" I'd better reevaluate my own definition of freedon and democracy."
It sounds like you really should. Freedom is not being in a nicer cage, killing people and taking their shit is wrong. Start with those premises. If you really need guidance maybe consult a few philosophy books.
"We're not bloodthirsty war pigs. Thats a mischaracterization by pacifist leftists unwilling to ever REALLY fight for what they believe in."
Yes we are. Otherwise how do you explain the fact that we drop bombs on somebody or another every few years and sow seeds of violence all over the world every day?
"Yes the EU needs to become a military force. "
they are a military force. The combined armies of Europe are very strong. They just don't think it's right to kill people and take away their stuff.
"Only a fool blinded by idealism would think that one can have credible and effective global influence without the military might to protect AND project their interests."
It foolish to try to have global influence, it's evil to project your interests on to other people. I don't know how you define evil but somewhere in that definition must be "being only concerned about your own interest at the expense of other people".
" Your insulting of my intelligence has shown that this is a complete waste of time"
It was entirely called for. You exhibit (did you look that word up?) profound ignorance about the MS case.
"Guess what, you are a criminal when you speed - you shouldn't be allowed to make money either."
The punishment should fit the crime. When I speed I get a ticket, I don't get the death penalty and the cops don't give me money. MS did not get punished at all. It was as if MS got caught speeding and the govt bought them a porche.
"but now I see you're simply a fundamentalist: you don't respect the complexity of the MS issue"
You don't even understand the issue. You keep mixing crimes and punishments and making money vs abusing a monopoly.
Re:CIA overthrows dictatorships
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Apparently you don't think the us govt ever lies. Apparently you also think that the CIA never lies.
Really I have nothing to say to you. They are both habitual liars and I don't as a matter of habit ever believe anything that a habitual liar might tell me especially when it concerns them telling me that they didn't do anything wrong.
"So the moral of the story is, don't become too successful in the US."
Uh Oh I am talking to moron. Ok I'll try and keep this simple so that even you can understand it.
1) It's possible to make money without being evil. 2) It's not illegal to be successful. 3) It's not illegal to have a monopoly. 4) It is illegal to have a monopoly and abuse that monopoly. 5) convicted criminals should be punished and the punishment should not be "here make more money".
I hope that was simple enough for you to understand.
"Apply the same analogy to Nintendo and Sony. Sony flooded the market place with tons of marketing and pushed Nintendo out of it's Final Fantasy licensing by give Square a better "deal". Sony's equity is 3 times that of nintendo's, and Microsoft's equity is a little less than 3 times that of Sony's, so the comparison is perfect. Business isn't communism - everybody doesn't get an equal lump sum to start a venture"
Once again you exhibit (you might have to look that word up) a profound lack of understanding. Sony does not have a monopoly so therefore it was legal for them to do that. It's not illegal to compete, it's not illegal to play hardball, it's not illegal to use your resources except when you are a monopoly.
"Having a loss-leader (like every other console on the market) is legit business. "
Apparently you also don't know the difference between a loss leader and dumping but to be honest I just don't feel like explaining to you. Suffice it to say MS loses money on MOST of their products. That's a luxury monopolies have that other companies don't. Because of the price gauging on their monopoly products they can subsidize money losing products.
"many people (myself included) lost HD's to OS/2 Warp. "
Boo fucking Hoo. How many hard drives were lost to windows since 3.1? What the fuck does that have anything to do with anything. MS screwed IBM on OS/2 and everybody knows this. They are a bunch of sleazeball scum. IBM was but one company to get stabbed in the back by Bill Gates. The man has no morals.
"Apple, that small company that MS "saved", is competing just fine. "
Like you said a niche market.
"And speaking of IBM, it has been consitantly out-profiting MS to the tune of $1-$2B or more per QUARTER. Food for thought."
Only by getting out of markets where MS is (like I said). It's impossible to compete against a monopoly and IBM knows this.
Re:CIA overthrows dictatorships
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IT at the CIA
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That and the shah.
Re:CIA overthrows dictatorships
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Why would you take the word of the CIA on this? Why would you take the word of the US govt on this?
Both entitites have shown repeatedly that they lie, lie, lie, lie, lie and lie some more whenever it suits them.
Re:Sounds like your typical govt agency
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IT at the CIA
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Typically we don't elect business types to the presidency though. That's interesting.
"It's not very easy to know what decision will lead to the least amount of lives lost. There is always the possilbility that war will save more lives. I can't say that it will, but then I can't say that it won't."
War is the resort of those who lack the brains and the imagination to find a peaceful solution. Bush didn't even bother to try to find another solution.
"Do you think the US should have stayed out of the Europen conflict in WW2? What about staying out of Kosovo? Sometimes war can save more lives.."
Yes. We interfered and we won. This gave birth to soviet russia and communist china. In the end just as many people died if not more. There is no way of knowing what would have happened if we didn't get involved.
"I'm betting that Iraqies will be better off (economically) now that Saddam is gone. "
Freedom is not defined as having a better cage. Sure they are better off but they would be even better off they could control their own oil supplies. You are making a morally corrupt argument which basically states states that they they are better off being our slaves then somebody elses slaves. If you want to free them then fucking free them.
"Huh? Eventually they will be allowed to elect their own leaders. "
No they won't. For example they will never be allowed to elect a shiite leader. We have final approval of any elected official.
Like I said though it's kind of moot. Afghanistan still hasn't had a general election even after years of "liberation". I figure it might take five to ten years before the iraqis will be allowed to vote at all.
"I didn't say that. I'm saying that at least the conflict did something positive. It removed Saddam. There was a *point* to the war. "
The point was to take over the oil wells, to set up military bases in the middle east, to install our puppet in iraq, to destabilize iran and syria, to funnel tax payers money to friends of Bush and Cheney via reconstruction contracts in that order.
"Afghanistan is now more stable and 'free' than it was before."
No it's not. It's still a place run by tribal leaders and warlords. You just don't hear about on Fox news or Rush Limbaugh. In fact it's probably less stable (depends on how you measure stability) due to long festering tribal issues now being resolved by violence.
"The US is the most powerful country in the world."
OK.
" The US has the burden and *responsibility* of stabilising the world. "
Huh? Says who? Even it was true policing does not equate to looting. The function of police states is not to invade, occupy, install puppets and to take over natural resources.
"What would happen if the US withdrawl all its troops from international bases (e.g. South Korea, Germanny, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Afghanistan, Indonesia etc etc) and closed its borders. What do you think would happen?"
Lots of things would happen but guess what lots of things happen anyway. At least people would resolve their own differences. All we are doing now is planting the seeds of future discontent. We propped up the shah and it lead to khomeni, we propped up saddam and gave him chemical weapons and look where that got us.
"We have a lot of reasons to be be pissed off with past and present US governments but I'm sick to death of all this blind and ignorant anti-Americanism."
I am disgusted with brainless, flag waving, cultlike acceptance of the bush/wolfowitz immoral foreign policy. I guess that makes us even.
BTW I am not Anti American I am anti Bush. The fact that you would try to smear me that way shows how much contempt you have to freedom and democracy in the first place.
Slashdot Mirror
MSN has popups.
Love of money is the root of all evil. Corporations exist because of the love of money. Their primary goal in life is to make more money. Corporations routinely put profits over the lives of people.
Corporations are immortal soul-less beings invested the same rights as being with souls.
I don't know that sounds pretty evil to me. Do you think jesus would be a CEO of a corporation?
"What matters is that IE has that browser dominance, that people are not going to switch back just because some geek tells them their browser is technically inferior. Nor do they crave standards compliance: that just means that other browsers don't render all their IE-specific web apps "correctly"."
People will switch when people like you and me install mozilla on their machine and configure it for them.
A properly configured mozilla stops popups, flash ads, blinking ads and makes the browsing experience more pleasant.
Install Mozilla for your friends, they will thank you for it many times over.
"Would you care to cite one who has called for murder of Muslim or any non-Christian women and childrem,"
They don't word it like the muslims do because they are more sophisticated in their rhetoric but make no mistake they are calling for a jihad every day. Although some of them do call for a religious war most of them are more clever about it. For example they will say that every single arab in the world shares the blame for 9/11 and then they will say that those responsible should be killed.
Also remember they don't have to call for the slaughter of the muslims now because when jesus comes back he will kill all of them anyway. All they have to do is to fulfill the core events of revelation and all the muslims, budhists and other non believers will be killed by god himself.
Just google for the apocalypse and you will get a full idea how important the book of revelations is to christians.
"2) The price of war for Bush was that he sold out Israel to Arabs, basically helping them to gain control of Jerusalem from Jews in the long run."
You are way off. When the dust settles israel will have full control over jerusalem and somewhere around 90% of the settlements on the west bank and gaza will remain.
Bush is a born again christian. For him it's crucial that the jews return to israel so that jesus can return. He is doing his best to usher in the apocalypse.
If you watch TV and listen to the representives of the republican party and it's affiliates (those so called think tanks) you will see that they are 100% behind israel. Ariel Sharon will call the shots in the so called "roadmap" just like he has been calling the shots about the entire middle east foreign policy.
" How many christian preachers do you see TODAY preaching from their pulpits "death to infidels"?"
You don't listen to christian radio do you? Try it sometime.
This new war against islam is the second coming of the crusades.
Nothing has changed really.
"Might makes right."
One grat thing about this war is that americans can no longer lie to themselves about what a shining city on hill and beacon for justice and liberty they are.
They now have to admit to themselves that they are just another empire committing acts of evil in order make themselves fatter and richer.
I am glad that you no longer entertain any delisions of grandeur about the "american experiment" and have come to the realization that you are no different then the slew of bastards that ran the soviet union for decades.
"That doesn't prove that war kills more than it saves whatsoever. For all you know, not entering the war could have resulted in 100X more deaths. My original statement stands. War can sometimes save more lives."
The reality is what it is. We entered WW2, we defeated germany and japan, we gave birth to SOviet union, china and north korea. Those entitites killed many more people then hitler all across the globe and subjugated billions of people under opressive regimes. In the case of WW2 our involvement resulted in MORE people being killed and LESS freedom in the world.
"So the US wants to target the ones that benefit them the most first. So what. Noone ever said they were altruists."
You said it. You said we were there to free the people. You said it was immoral to let people suffer under opression. I am glad now that you see things my way.
"If you're an american you're under the control of a US "official". Sucks that you aren't under the control of Saddam instead doesn't it?"
It's not the same and you know it. Don't resort to such simplistic arguments people might think you don't know any better.
"Where the hell did you get a figure of tens of thousands?"
More then a thousand civillians were killed. I figure if we did no better then kill 10 solders for every civillian we probably suck ass. The real figure is probably hundreds of thousands killed but we'll never know because we don't have free press in the US.
"Where is it now?"
Every single oil well is now under the control of the US military. If an iraqui tries to enter one they get killed.
"You say you should never kill no matter what but yet you support the assassination of Saddam and support complancency when it kills. I am not the one who has such a black/white view on war."
Once again you are lying about what I said. It does not help your argument when you do that.
"Care to explain how you have seem to have concluded that atrocities wouldn't of happened anyway?"
It's impossible to know what could have happened. But we do know what did happen. The germans and the japanese lost. The russians won and formed the soviet union which opressed and killed people for decades afterwards. China after the japanese left did the same thing. North korea ditto.
The facts are indisputable. Defeating japan and germany did not result in the stop of the killings and in many cases led to countless more deaths.
Reality sucks huh?
"So you think Saddam's regieme would have fallen with his assassination?"
Yes I do. Saddams regime was a cult of personality. The assasination of a dozen people would have led to a collapse of the baath party apparatus. We could have done other things too. Invasion should have been the last thing we tried not the first.
"So if we can't fix them all we can't fix one right?"
Yes that's right. You can't only fix the ones where you can take over the oil wells. Otherwise people might question your motives.
"They weren't invaded or killed."
Yes they were. Did you watch the news? It was all over the TV. You must have seen bombs falling and the US army driving across the countryside.
"They were being freeed from Saddam."
They were freed from saddam and put under the control of some US "official". Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
". I guess if your family was being taken hostage by madmen who wouldn't negotiate and was cutting their fingers off one by one you would advocate more negotiations"
"They're not being killed on purpose and noone has taken their valuables."
I am sure that the tens of thousands of dead humans and their families feel better because it was not "done on purpose". Why the hell did we drop bombs if we were not "intending" to kill people?
Oh yes I do believe that oil is valuable and we did take it.
"Funny how you think it's immoral to kill people but that it's a-ok to sit idly by and watch them being killed but do nothing even though you have the power to do something about it."
People are being killed all over the world right now and you are sitting around not doing anything about it. I guess that means you are immoral. How can you stand idly by while people are being killed in africa? Shame on you!.
Back to the topic on hand please.
Nice to know that we are no worse then anybody else. It's always nice to see someone who sets the bar so low for themselves. "Look everybody we are no worse then them!" Whoo Hooo.
"Being only concerned about your own interests at the expense of other people's isn't even evil, its just a narrow minded form of self-preservation"
OK So we have different definitions of evil. To you being only concerned about your own self interest at the expense of other people is not evil. To me it is.
"Yet thats not even what we do."
Yes it is.
"When we look after our own interests we by default indirectly also look after the interests of the rest of the world."
That's just ridiculus on the face it.
"In order to create a true global economy that can benefit all the people/investors/workers/citizens of the world we first have to make the world a safe place."
Yes right whatever.
"That involves instilling order. And yes those who wish to live outside this order will scream bloody murder and label us warmongering bloodthirsty pigs."
You know people don't like to be killed, they don't like to have their oil taken away, they don't like to be invaded, they don't like to have your will imposed on them. Go figure.
"In time they will look back and be thankful that the US was not an isolationist hyperpower, but one that fully engaged the world and benevolently used its Hegemony to create a worldwide Pax Americana."
You know this sounds a hell of a lot like what hitler said.
"Whether the rest of the world wishes right now for such an outcome to occur is wholly irrelevant."
that's right. We will kill anybody who disagrees with that. It's our world to do as we please. All people are our slaves, all their resources belong to us. Our way or the highway.
It's frightning how evil this country has gotten. The corruption of the amrican psche is now complete. Worship power, subjugate people to your will, take away their shit and kill them if they disagree.
"How interesting. Are you you saying that less people would have died if the US didn't enter WW2?"
Why yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Go pick up a history book and read about the murders that happened in Soviet Russia and China.
"They derserve more freedom than they had. We can't just give them total freedom a month after the fall of a regieme. That would only make way for a possible worse and more corrupt regieme"
They deserve freedom period. Not half a freedom, not some freedom, not a little bit of freedom. They will never be free because we won't let them.
"They weren't free people before this started. They're now more free than they were before. Over time they will get more and more freedon. Just like Japan. Just like Germany"
No because they will never again regain control over their natural resources. They will never be able to vote for whoever they want.
"Now tell me, how do you suppose we can give it to them without invading and taking down the current regieme? "
Why yes I do think it was possible to do it without taking over the oil wells. I do think it was possible to do it without bombing and invading and occupying them.
"What you want is for the US to never invade in the first place and permit the Iraqi people (many of whom asked for our help) to continue living under Saddam."
Liar. It does not help when you resort to lying. Stick to things I said and stop lying about it and stop putting words in my mouth. It makes your arguments look worthless when you resort to lying about what I said.
"Tell me, how do you remove Saddam from power (and believe me, Iraqis wouldn't be free until he is) without resorting to violence?"
Well gee how about just assassinating the son of a bitch I think that might have worked. We could have assasinated a few dozen people and that would have been that. You think Israel might have helped us with that one? How about Turkey? Even the Russians would have helped with that one. It would be relatively bloodless.
"Do you sit around trying to convince the dictator to be "nice" for the next 50 years?"
First of all that is happening all over the world and yet I don't see you advocating invading every two bit country in the world.
Now to answer your questions. I WOULD NOT INVADE THEM AND KILL THEM AND TAKE AWAY THEIR SHIT. I would find a way to make them truly free and not deny them the same rights that you and I have. I would not make them my puppets.
Let me say this again. It is wrong and immoral to kill people and take away their valuables.
Didn't your mother teach you that?
"LOL. You're more ignorant than I thought. I guess you think the US should never have entered WW2? Complacency can kill more people than war can."
Did you read my post? As a consequence of us entering WW2 we gave birth to soviet russia and communist china. Together those two regimes killed more people then hitler. We caused more death then we prevented. Have you read any history at all? Are you denying that the soviet union and china are murderous regimes? How many chinese were killed and tortured?
"You idiot. Do you think you are free? Noone is ever totally free but they are *more* free than they were under Saddam."
Why repeat your same morally corrupt argument. Why not try to make the iraquis as free as us? Don't they deserve more freedom then we are giving them? Don't they deserve the same degree of freedom that exists in israel, turkey, europe and america?
"Oh sure. I guess woman are still beaten to death by the government for showing their faces. I guess they're still blowing up 2000 year old buddahs too."
Yes they are. Exactly how ignorant are you. Karzai is the president of Kabul, the rest of afghanistan is being run by warlords. Karzai is only alive because he is being guraded by US secret service.
"So we're looting Iraq now? Well, I guess better us than Saddam. LOL."
Yes we are. We have taken their oil wells and have taken over vast tracks of land that we will use to build permanent military bases on.
You keep making the same argument, it's better if we steal their shit then saddam, it's better if they are under our own control then saddams, it's better if they live under our rule then saddams. I don't think anybody is arguing that. I am arguing that it's better if we didn't take anything and they were free people. Why don't the iraquis deserve the same degree of freedom that you have? Why do they have to be your slaves, why do you have to steal their shit? Doesn't it bother you that your govt is stealing shit and subjugating people to it's will? If so why not?
" I'd better reevaluate my own definition of freedon and democracy."
It sounds like you really should. Freedom is not being in a nicer cage, killing people and taking their shit is wrong. Start with those premises. If you really need guidance maybe consult a few philosophy books.
"We're not bloodthirsty war pigs. Thats a mischaracterization by pacifist leftists unwilling to ever REALLY fight for what they believe in."
Yes we are. Otherwise how do you explain the fact that we drop bombs on somebody or another every few years and sow seeds of violence all over the world every day?
"Yes the EU needs to become a military force. "
they are a military force. The combined armies of Europe are very strong. They just don't think it's right to kill people and take away their stuff.
"Only a fool blinded by idealism would think that one can have credible and effective global influence without the military might to protect AND project their interests."
It foolish to try to have global influence, it's evil to project your interests on to other people. I don't know how you define evil but somewhere in that definition must be "being only concerned about your own interest at the expense of other people".
" Your insulting of my intelligence has shown that this is a complete waste of time"
It was entirely called for. You exhibit (did you look that word up?) profound ignorance about the MS case.
"Guess what, you are a criminal when you speed - you shouldn't be allowed to make money either."
The punishment should fit the crime. When I speed I get a ticket, I don't get the death penalty and the cops don't give me money. MS did not get punished at all. It was as if MS got caught speeding and the govt bought them a porche.
"but now I see you're simply a fundamentalist: you don't respect the complexity of the MS issue"
You don't even understand the issue. You keep mixing crimes and punishments and making money vs abusing a monopoly.
Apparently you don't think the us govt ever lies. Apparently you also think that the CIA never lies.
Really I have nothing to say to you. They are both habitual liars and I don't as a matter of habit ever believe anything that a habitual liar might tell me especially when it concerns them telling me that they didn't do anything wrong.
Yes they should be a herd of bloodthirsty war pigs like us.
"So the moral of the story is, don't become too successful in the US."
Uh Oh I am talking to moron. Ok I'll try and keep this simple so that even you can understand it.
1) It's possible to make money without being evil.
2) It's not illegal to be successful.
3) It's not illegal to have a monopoly.
4) It is illegal to have a monopoly and abuse that monopoly.
5) convicted criminals should be punished and the punishment should not be "here make more money".
I hope that was simple enough for you to understand.
"Apply the same analogy to Nintendo and Sony. Sony flooded the market place with tons of marketing and pushed Nintendo out of it's Final Fantasy licensing by give Square a better "deal". Sony's equity is 3 times that of nintendo's, and Microsoft's equity is a little less than 3 times that of Sony's, so the comparison is perfect. Business isn't communism - everybody doesn't get an equal lump sum to start a venture"
Once again you exhibit (you might have to look that word up) a profound lack of understanding. Sony does not have a monopoly so therefore it was legal for them to do that. It's not illegal to compete, it's not illegal to play hardball, it's not illegal to use your resources except when you are a monopoly.
"Having a loss-leader (like every other console on the market) is legit business. "
Apparently you also don't know the difference between a loss leader and dumping but to be honest I just don't feel like explaining to you. Suffice it to say MS loses money on MOST of their products. That's a luxury monopolies have that other companies don't. Because of the price gauging on their monopoly products they can subsidize money losing products.
"many people (myself included) lost HD's to OS/2 Warp. "
Boo fucking Hoo. How many hard drives were lost to windows since 3.1? What the fuck does that have anything to do with anything. MS screwed IBM on OS/2 and everybody knows this. They are a bunch of sleazeball scum. IBM was but one company to get stabbed in the back by Bill Gates. The man has no morals.
"Apple, that small company that MS "saved", is competing just fine. "
Like you said a niche market.
"And speaking of IBM, it has been consitantly out-profiting MS to the tune of $1-$2B or more per QUARTER. Food for thought."
Only by getting out of markets where MS is (like I said). It's impossible to compete against a monopoly and IBM knows this.
That and the shah.
Why would you take the word of the CIA on this? Why would you take the word of the US govt on this?
Both entitites have shown repeatedly that they lie, lie, lie, lie, lie and lie some more whenever it suits them.
Typically we don't elect business types to the presidency though. That's interesting.
" That was Afghanistan."
No it wasn't.
"Iraq gave support to al Qaeda, as Iran and Syria are doing now. (And yes, before you ask, they're next on the list. Iran first, I think.)"
No they didn't
"As for loving to kill, we're actually beyond that. We're now to the point of actively minimizing casualties on all sides."
Name a five year period in your lifetime during which american bombs were not killing somebody someplace.
"1) The whole EU (yes, _and_ the UK) would declare war back on the US"
No they wouldn't and even if they did we would kill them all.
"2) China & Russia would see it as an affermation that the US gov. has indeed gone bonkers and join the EU."
No they would take advantage and take over parts of europe.
" And yes, that _would_ stop the US ! (The US just has the strongest millitary as _single_ country...not 2 whole continents.)"
We can kill everybody in the world hundreds of times over. We could also ally with china and russia to pinch europe and to defeat them.
"So yes, I do think that G Bush would have reservations against invading France..geez.."
I don't think GW is a rational human being. He is likely to do anything.
"It's not very easy to know what decision will lead to the least amount of lives lost. There is always the possilbility that war will save more lives. I can't say that it will, but then I can't say that it won't."
War is the resort of those who lack the brains and the imagination to find a peaceful solution. Bush didn't even bother to try to find another solution.
"Do you think the US should have stayed out of the Europen conflict in WW2? What about staying out of Kosovo? Sometimes war can save more lives.."
Yes. We interfered and we won. This gave birth to soviet russia and communist china. In the end just as many people died if not more. There is no way of knowing what would have happened if we didn't get involved.
"I'm betting that Iraqies will be better off (economically) now that Saddam is gone. "
Freedom is not defined as having a better cage. Sure they are better off but they would be even better off they could control their own oil supplies. You are making a morally corrupt argument which basically states states that they they are better off being our slaves then somebody elses slaves. If you want to free them then fucking free them.
"Huh? Eventually they will be allowed to elect their own leaders. "
No they won't. For example they will never be allowed to elect a shiite leader. We have final approval of any elected official.
Like I said though it's kind of moot. Afghanistan still hasn't had a general election even after years of "liberation". I figure it might take five to ten years before the iraqis will be allowed to vote at all.
"I didn't say that. I'm saying that at least the conflict did something positive. It removed Saddam. There was a *point* to the war. "
The point was to take over the oil wells, to set up military bases in the middle east, to install our puppet in iraq, to destabilize iran and syria, to funnel tax payers money to friends of Bush and Cheney via reconstruction contracts in that order.
"Afghanistan is now more stable and 'free' than it was before."
No it's not. It's still a place run by tribal leaders and warlords. You just don't hear about on Fox news or Rush Limbaugh. In fact it's probably less stable (depends on how you measure stability) due to long festering tribal issues now being resolved by violence.
"The US is the most powerful country in the world."
OK.
" The US has the burden and *responsibility* of stabilising the world. "
Huh? Says who? Even it was true policing does not equate to looting. The function of police states is not to invade, occupy, install puppets and to take over natural resources.
"What would happen if the US withdrawl all its troops from international bases (e.g. South Korea, Germanny, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Afghanistan, Indonesia etc etc) and closed its borders. What do you think would happen?"
Lots of things would happen but guess what lots of things happen anyway. At least people would resolve their own differences. All we are doing now is planting the seeds of future discontent. We propped up the shah and it lead to khomeni, we propped up saddam and gave him chemical weapons and look where that got us.
"We have a lot of reasons to be be pissed off with past and present US governments but I'm sick to death of all this blind and ignorant anti-Americanism."
I am disgusted with brainless, flag waving, cultlike acceptance of the bush/wolfowitz immoral foreign policy. I guess that makes us even.
BTW I am not Anti American I am anti Bush. The fact that you would try to smear me that way shows how much contempt you have to freedom and democracy in the first place.