I've been in mainland China many times and I never felt my brain having reduced capabilities during the stay.
I technically live in China too, technically under PRC rule, in Hong Kong. I think my brain is working fine. Of course, now you may pronounce me retarded~
No, actually the issues are a bit more complicated.
The PRC's stance is that Taiwan is part of China, and of course the capital in Beijing. The Taiwan pro-independence people are saying Taiwan is not part of China, and is an independent country called "Taiwan". The KMT's current stance is basically, "look, can't we just get along?" Around 30 years ago their stance was that China's capital was in Taipei, I think that sort of dogma lasted a while after that, but it's not accepted by any mainstream groups. And even back then, Taipei was only the temporary capital and the idea was to recapture the mainland.
But then things about Taiwan are a bit more subtle. The Chinese know half of the story, and you know the other half. Read this before?
My personal assessment is that there is a small minority of people in Taiwan who are for reunification (mostly those who fled mainland after the civil war, after all they were born and raised there), a minority that supports independence, and the bulk who don't really care what their country is called as long as their lives are not affected.
So yes, brainwashed to some extent, but I don't see it as significantly worse (well I accept that it's a bit worse) than those misguided people in other countries. For example, how many people believed that Iraq had WMDs? Probably not you, but many do.
The point? There's some propaganda, some brainwashing, but probably not as bad as you've thought. When you encounter a situation where you think your Chinese friends are unacceptably brainwashed, maybe it's just that you've missed a few points yourself.
I don't really dispute the censorship and political persecution you've claimed, I'm just disputing that such censorship could be as effective as 1984 levels, particularly when in this age of the Internet you can't really achieve 100% censorship.
Yeah I kept it simple because I replied just because I was uneasy that the GGP's misleading statements go unchallenged (some random reader might get the wrong impression).
My mother tongue is Cantonese and I speak passable Mandarin, so I know what you're talking about. You put it much better than I could have though:-)
I'll just add that AFAIK the reason Taiwan uses traditional characters is simple: when the PRC implemented the policy to use simplified characters they had no control over Taiwan, so the policy wasn't adopted there and thus they continued using the traditional characters. Same here in Hong Kong.
quit bitching about everything we free people do outside your fucking borders. You obviously missed the irony of this one.
Spelling it out spoils the fun though: A slashdotter, outside China, bitching about everything the Chinese people do inside their borders (and outside said slashdotter's borders).
Yes, that will eventually hurt their people but it is their people that must overthrow the government in charge at this point. I've said this before and I'll say it again: you have no right to demand the people of another country to give their lives for a cause that you believe in.
And allow me to ask, what has China done to you that makes you so eager to "fuck" them? Besides having some policies that you don't agree with inside their own borders?
As Google maps are satellite based, how inaccurate can they be? Probably too accurate? Another message I got from the announcement was that the maps could contain "sensitive state secrets". We all know that the Chinese government has a rather strange interpretation of what constitutes "state secrets", but I guess they are concerned with having a too accurate map of the terrain in China, which could lead to military intelligence problems, for instance.
I wouldn't normally reply to posts like yours... but then people might take you seriously.
- Chinese is a very complex language, with subtle "grammar" rules which makes it hard to parse with an automaton. - Cantonese and Mandarin are (among the many) spoken dialects, and have little to do with the written language. - The simplification applies to Chinese characters only, basically establishing some kind of shorthand for writing complicated characters. It does not affect the grammar nor meaning nor content of the language. A one-to-one translation of simplified Chinese to traditional Chinese is possible (and of course vice versa).
chinese government might have been using its secret service members (Emphasis mine)
Did it occur to you that all your posts (not just this one) and arguments are based on pure speculation, in turn based on unfounded bias? Did it occur to you that such reasoning methods are flaky? And make yourself sound like an idiot?
Actually it somehow occurred to me that you MIGHT be raping young girls in your basement and killing their babies. (how do I know? you have no evidence to show otherwise...) Yes, so you're a sicko now.
If you've been on youtube during the Tibet sentiment a while ago with people on both sides swearing at each other, you'd notice that some actually do come from mainland China.
Actually it is. The last part of the article is a poem describing the claimed unusual behaviors animals before earthquakes. (well, not in the mood of translating the poem, but the google one is pretty bad;-p)
And... remember 1984 is a fictional work? It's a cautionary tale, an exaggerated one at that.
It's much harder in practice.
I didn't even point to abuses of western countries. The argument isn't needed, and it's not the point. Basically your thinking is: "I live in a place where the media is 'free'. But still we're somewhat brainwashed. China is worse!!! So the people must be totally brainwashed." Which is what exactly I'm trying to refute. I don't care whether America or wherever plays dirty tricks on the media, I'm saying that despite the state propaganda in China the people aren't totally drones because they have this device called a "brain" which is actually capable of individual thinking.
PS: On a second reading of your comment... you don't even seem to have read what I wrote in the GP post.:-/
Unless you have close friends or relatives who are affected, I'd rather not have you "feel" the pains of the victims.
Not that I am for trivializing the disaster, quite the opposite. When you, probably sitting in the comfort of your room, professing to "feel" for the victims, you're actually trivializing the pain of the real victims and their friends and families, some who've probably lost their homes or means of living.
Well you're right (in the post which I'm reply to). But it doesn't mean I'm wrong.
I think the apparent support would be a mix of "brainwashing" and genuine support. You make it sound like all Chinese are 100% brainwashed drones, a myth that I was trying to dispel.
Yes there is censorship, yes there is state propaganda, yes there are even blind, zealous "patriots", but the lack of democratic institutions doesn't mean that this particular government is "in fact" hated by the people, and it doesn't mean that all Chinese are too indoctrinated that they can't utilize their brains.
You'd be accurate if you said "30 years" instead of "10 years".
The public agrees with its government's actions because they generally do. Is it so hard to accept the fact that sometimes these governments actually work for the people? Is it so hard to accept the possibility that Chinese leaders actually have a sense of responsibility and morality, and actually care about the people, instead of the vote-buying enterprise that dominates "democratic" politics?
It's ironic that in "democratic" countries governments with less than like 40% approval rating can still rule the country... and then instead of electing a better government these people bitch about "brainwashing" of other countries when an "evil" authoritarian government does a better job.
I'm not saying democracy is worse than authoritarian government... but people like you are essentially saying "you're evil!!! you can't be better than us!! it must be a trick!!". Pathetic.
I'm not too optimistic. In fact I'm pretty sure the numbers will continue to climb as the situation stabilizes a bit and the true extent of the damage could be assessed. A earthquake of similar magnitude in China killed at least 250 thousand. It'd be a "blessing" if the casualties stays in the tens of thousands:-(
Beijing felt some mild shaking but it wasn't anywhere near the center. In fact, it is almost 1000 miles away.
China is a pretty big country around the size of the USA. Sichuan (the quake center) is in the southwest and Beijing is on the northeastern part of the country.
So if it happened during the Olympics it might have caused some panic but casualties of foreign visitors in Beijing probably be close to zero.
Ugh. To make it fair it isn't America or the west who are to blame. I could relate how Americans could be indifferent to disasters on the other side of the world, but I've gotten worse comments from some of my fellow Chinese who are devotedly anti-communist. Things like "hah! Shows that the CCP has lost the mandate of heaven!", "this is god's punishment for the evil communists", "oh it doesn't matter the communists were planning to kill them anyway", "they'll be reporting zero casualties with the leadership of our great party"...
So yeah, while Americans have earned their reputation for stupidity I think you guys have at least passed in this sympathy test. The only appalling comments from westerners seem to be from people who are idiots (which, I excuse, since every country has their own idiots), but the comments above were made by supposedly educated people. Sick.
Slashdot Mirror
I've been in mainland China many times and I never felt my brain having reduced capabilities during the stay.
I technically live in China too, technically under PRC rule, in Hong Kong. I think my brain is working fine. Of course, now you may pronounce me retarded~
(and in case you're wondering why I'm talking about a brain, people on slashdot forget conversations fast...)
No, actually the issues are a bit more complicated.
The PRC's stance is that Taiwan is part of China, and of course the capital in Beijing.
The Taiwan pro-independence people are saying Taiwan is not part of China, and is an independent country called "Taiwan".
The KMT's current stance is basically, "look, can't we just get along?" Around 30 years ago their stance was that China's capital was in Taipei, I think that sort of dogma lasted a while after that, but it's not accepted by any mainstream groups. And even back then, Taipei was only the temporary capital and the idea was to recapture the mainland.
Sigh. You're right.
But then things about Taiwan are a bit more subtle. The Chinese know half of the story, and you know the other half. Read this before?
My personal assessment is that there is a small minority of people in Taiwan who are for reunification (mostly those who fled mainland after the civil war, after all they were born and raised there), a minority that supports independence, and the bulk who don't really care what their country is called as long as their lives are not affected.
So yes, brainwashed to some extent, but I don't see it as significantly worse (well I accept that it's a bit worse) than those misguided people in other countries. For example, how many people believed that Iraq had WMDs? Probably not you, but many do.
The point? There's some propaganda, some brainwashing, but probably not as bad as you've thought. When you encounter a situation where you think your Chinese friends are unacceptably brainwashed, maybe it's just that you've missed a few points yourself.
I don't really dispute the censorship and political persecution you've claimed, I'm just disputing that such censorship could be as effective as 1984 levels, particularly when in this age of the Internet you can't really achieve 100% censorship.
Yeah I kept it simple because I replied just because I was uneasy that the GGP's misleading statements go unchallenged (some random reader might get the wrong impression).
:-)
My mother tongue is Cantonese and I speak passable Mandarin, so I know what you're talking about. You put it much better than I could have though
I'll just add that AFAIK the reason Taiwan uses traditional characters is simple: when the PRC implemented the policy to use simplified characters they had no control over Taiwan, so the policy wasn't adopted there and thus they continued using the traditional characters. Same here in Hong Kong.
It amazes me how far some people are willing to go to smite China for their flaws, by doing something worse.
Whether Taiwan is part of China is a political controversy, but having the "Chinese capital" in Taipei is an outright lie.
I guess it makes you feel smart and satisfied though. I guess anything that makes you feel happy goes.
You're reading too much out of it.
If you're going for a conspiracy-ish theory, this looks more likely to be a response to the Tibet independence movements last month.
Even the Chinese aren't that efficient to draw up such a regulation/policy within a day.
Spelling it out spoils the fun though: A slashdotter, outside China, bitching about everything the Chinese people do inside their borders (and outside said slashdotter's borders).
And allow me to ask, what has China done to you that makes you so eager to "fuck" them? Besides having some policies that you don't agree with inside their own borders?
In fact, I agree.
Fact is that humans don't get totally brainwashed that easily, and some don't buy into that crap despite the amount of crap you feed them.
Happy?
I wouldn't normally reply to posts like yours... but then people might take you seriously.
- Chinese is a very complex language, with subtle "grammar" rules which makes it hard to parse with an automaton.
- Cantonese and Mandarin are (among the many) spoken dialects, and have little to do with the written language.
- The simplification applies to Chinese characters only, basically establishing some kind of shorthand for writing complicated characters. It does not affect the grammar nor meaning nor content of the language. A one-to-one translation of simplified Chinese to traditional Chinese is possible (and of course vice versa).
Did it occur to you that all your posts (not just this one) and arguments are based on pure speculation, in turn based on unfounded bias? Did it occur to you that such reasoning methods are flaky? And make yourself sound like an idiot?
Actually it somehow occurred to me that you MIGHT be raping young girls in your basement and killing their babies. (how do I know? you have no evidence to show otherwise...) Yes, so you're a sicko now.
If you've been on youtube during the Tibet sentiment a while ago with people on both sides swearing at each other, you'd notice that some actually do come from mainland China.
Actually it is. The last part of the article is a poem describing the claimed unusual behaviors animals before earthquakes. (well, not in the mood of translating the poem, but the google one is pretty bad ;-p)
The Chinese Communists are not Gods.
And not all the people are as gullible as you are.
And... remember 1984 is a fictional work? It's a cautionary tale, an exaggerated one at that.
:-/
It's much harder in practice.
I didn't even point to abuses of western countries. The argument isn't needed, and it's not the point. Basically your thinking is: "I live in a place where the media is 'free'. But still we're somewhat brainwashed. China is worse!!! So the people must be totally brainwashed." Which is what exactly I'm trying to refute. I don't care whether America or wherever plays dirty tricks on the media, I'm saying that despite the state propaganda in China the people aren't totally drones because they have this device called a "brain" which is actually capable of individual thinking.
PS: On a second reading of your comment... you don't even seem to have read what I wrote in the GP post.
Unless you have close friends or relatives who are affected, I'd rather not have you "feel" the pains of the victims.
Not that I am for trivializing the disaster, quite the opposite. When you, probably sitting in the comfort of your room, professing to "feel" for the victims, you're actually trivializing the pain of the real victims and their friends and families, some who've probably lost their homes or means of living.
Well you're right (in the post which I'm reply to). But it doesn't mean I'm wrong.
I think the apparent support would be a mix of "brainwashing" and genuine support. You make it sound like all Chinese are 100% brainwashed drones, a myth that I was trying to dispel.
Yes there is censorship, yes there is state propaganda, yes there are even blind, zealous "patriots", but the lack of democratic institutions doesn't mean that this particular government is "in fact" hated by the people, and it doesn't mean that all Chinese are too indoctrinated that they can't utilize their brains.
Actually, more like 24 hours later.
You'd be accurate if you said "30 years" instead of "10 years".
The public agrees with its government's actions because they generally do. Is it so hard to accept the fact that sometimes these governments actually work for the people? Is it so hard to accept the possibility that Chinese leaders actually have a sense of responsibility and morality, and actually care about the people, instead of the vote-buying enterprise that dominates "democratic" politics?
It's ironic that in "democratic" countries governments with less than like 40% approval rating can still rule the country... and then instead of electing a better government these people bitch about "brainwashing" of other countries when an "evil" authoritarian government does a better job.
I'm not saying democracy is worse than authoritarian government... but people like you are essentially saying "you're evil!!! you can't be better than us!! it must be a trick!!". Pathetic.
Um, maybe they don't. But that doesn't mean you guys making smartass remarks about China's politics here have a heart either.
It's OK if you don't have a heart though, but just don't let me see you stand on that moral high ground anymore.
I'm not too optimistic. In fact I'm pretty sure the numbers will continue to climb as the situation stabilizes a bit and the true extent of the damage could be assessed. A earthquake of similar magnitude in China killed at least 250 thousand. It'd be a "blessing" if the casualties stays in the tens of thousands :-(
Beijing felt some mild shaking but it wasn't anywhere near the center. In fact, it is almost 1000 miles away.
China is a pretty big country around the size of the USA. Sichuan (the quake center) is in the southwest and Beijing is on the northeastern part of the country.
So if it happened during the Olympics it might have caused some panic but casualties of foreign visitors in Beijing probably be close to zero.
Ugh. To make it fair it isn't America or the west who are to blame. I could relate how Americans could be indifferent to disasters on the other side of the world, but I've gotten worse comments from some of my fellow Chinese who are devotedly anti-communist. Things like "hah! Shows that the CCP has lost the mandate of heaven!", "this is god's punishment for the evil communists", "oh it doesn't matter the communists were planning to kill them anyway", "they'll be reporting zero casualties with the leadership of our great party"...
So yeah, while Americans have earned their reputation for stupidity I think you guys have at least passed in this sympathy test. The only appalling comments from westerners seem to be from people who are idiots (which, I excuse, since every country has their own idiots), but the comments above were made by supposedly educated people. Sick.