Earthquake In China

Several readers sent in links on the earthquake that hit 10 hours ago near the Sichuan city of Chengdu in China. The Telegraph focuses on the citizen journalism that got word on the quake out on the Net instantly (the first report was via Twitter). Science magazine speculates that deaths from this event could exceed the 240,000 killed in the Tangshan quake in 1976, though the estimated death toll is below 10,000 at this writing. Hundreds of videos are up on YouTube, including this footage from a security camera — keep your eye on the goldfish.

Comments

Twitter?

[crazybit]

aren't there any seismographs connected to the internet in china?

that should have been faster than a human posting on twitter.

Re:Twitter?

[terremoto]

>aren't there any seismographs connected to the internet in china?
>that should have been faster than a human posting on twitter.

How about less than a minute? Compare the event and solution times on this page.

http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/eq_depot/2008/eq_080512_ryan/neic_ryan_cmt.html

Re:Twitter?

[kcelery]

http://www.chinareviewnews.com/doc/1006/4/3/1/100643181.html?coluid=45&kindid=0&docid=100643181&mdate=0513002548

Early warning from toad migration on May 10.

Re:Twitter?

[kcelery]

translated link:

http://www.google.com.tw/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chinareviewnews.com%2Fdoc%2F1006%2F4%2F3%2F1%2F100643181.html%3Fcoluid%3D45%26kindid%3D0%26docid%3D100643181%26mdate%3D0513002548&hl=zh-TW&ie=UTF8&sl=zh-CN&tl=en

Re:Twitter?

[Anonymous Coward]

what have Quest software or Oracle databases to do with Quake?

Re:Twitter?

[ComaVN]

Sorry, but I just had to laugh at that translation:

a large toad movement: hundreds of thousands of toads mighty size of a pharmaceutical factory in the vicinity of walking on the road, many vehicles were crushed

Hundreds of thousands of toads the size of factories crushing vehicles? That makes the earthquake seem like a minor inconvenience...

Re:Twitter?

[Anonymous Coward]

While the reporting is on a tragic event, the engrish translation really made me laugh out loud.

Re:Twitter?

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one welcome our factory sized earthquake causing overtoads.

Re:Twitter?

[Anonymous Coward]

town of Macassar Ebony has a large toad movement: hundreds of thousands of toads mighty size of a pharmaceutical factory in the vicinity of walking on the road, many vehicles were crushed Correlation or causation?

Re:Twitter?

[Anonymous Coward]

Too much time on my hands I guess. Here's my personal translation:

According to sources, omens appeared before the earthquake in Mianzhu, Sichuan: large scale migrations of toads. When some citizens commented that these were bad omens, the local forestry department explained that this was a normal phenomenon.

According to reports by wccdaily, there are always indications before earthquakes, some animals react more strongly than humans. Large scale migrations of toads appeared in Sichuan Mianzhu city: hundreds of thousands of toads marched on a highway near a pharmacutical factory, and were rolled over by many passing vehicles, or crushed by pedestrians. The appearances of large numbers of toads led villagers to speculate that something bad will happen.

==Toads crossing roads in flocks, frightened pedestrians take alternate routes===

"Too many, too frightening, flocks and flocks, as if they were taking their families to a carnival" villager Zhou said, "At early dawn, I went to the market to buy something, and I didn't get far before I saw toads strolling on the streets, and I was too frightened to put my feet on the ground. So I decided to take another route. When I went back home at noon, I saw a few toads remaining, and because some cars passed by, a number of toads were already killed under their wheels.

The toads appeared near a pharmacutical facility. Mr. Liu who lived next to the facility said that he saw a black mass of toads crawling on the ground, "a lot of them had already been killed by cars and pedestrians at that time, lying bloodily on the floor. We never had such phenomenon here before."

==Was it a foreword for disaster? Forestry experts dismiss doubts==

Many villagers expressed worries, "Isn't this a bad omen for some natural disaster?", as the news spread people got unsettled and worried.

When the local forestry deparment received report and arrived at the scene, the head of the department said that large numbers of young toads grouping on shore to migrate is a normal phenomenon, unrelated to the natural disasters claimed by citizens, and the toads will not affect the living of people, their arrival would also reduce the number of mosquitoes and pests, so villagers need not worry.

De-yang Forestry workers said that these massive migrations are good signs, they show that Mianzhu's wildlife environment is getting better and better.

Re:Twitter?

[Ex-MislTech]

Sorry, but I just had to laugh at that translation:

Chinese was becoming a very complex language, and still
today there is at least Cantonese and Mandarin, perhaps more.

The people of the government decided to simplify the language
and thus why some of it reads that way when translated.

Also their language is not based of latin like most of Europes.

Re:Twitter?

[Ex-MislTech]

Morale of the story:

Listen to the Earth and all its children, and it may save
you and your children.

We are finding cures in nature that have baffled science
for many years.

http://www.webmd.com/alzheimers/news/20050105/curry-spice-may-fight-alzheimers-disease

http://diabetes.webmd.com/news/20031205/cinnamon-helps-type-2-diabetes

http://www.chimachine4u.com/AA.html

http://www.healingdaily.com/conditions/saliva-ph-test.htm

Re:Twitter?

[dominious]

This translation reads like a poem:

Animals before earthquakes have precursors, unusual to report.
Maluo sheep into cattle do not ring, pig dogs Luanyao not cannibalism.
Ducks do not make the water on shore, Ji fly tree called loudly.
Bingtianxuede dispatched the snake, rat dementia move defectors.
Shuer also hit the rabbit jumped, the fish to panic the water jump.
Bees group moved to downtown Hong Hong, Jingfei not homing pigeons.

Re:Twitter?

[phasm42]

We are finding cures in nature that have baffled science for many years.

This is a non sequitur. Science is about studying nature and learning from it. You're creating a dichotomy where there is none.

Re:Twitter?

[sydneyfong]

Actually it is. The last part of the article is a poem describing the claimed unusual behaviors animals before earthquakes. (well, not in the mood of translating the poem, but the google one is pretty bad ;-p)

Re:Twitter?

[sydneyfong]

I wouldn't normally reply to posts like yours... but then people might take you seriously.

- Chinese is a very complex language, with subtle "grammar" rules which makes it hard to parse with an automaton.
- Cantonese and Mandarin are (among the many) spoken dialects, and have little to do with the written language.
- The simplification applies to Chinese characters only, basically establishing some kind of shorthand for writing complicated characters. It does not affect the grammar nor meaning nor content of the language. A one-to-one translation of simplified Chinese to traditional Chinese is possible (and of course vice versa).

Re:Twitter?

[ultranova]

Morale of the story:

Listen to the Earth and all its children, and it may save you and your children.

Actually, the moral is: Don't believe that everything is well just because someone who's job it is to keep you pacified says so.

Now get off my lawn, you neo-pagan hippie :D!

Re:Twitter?

[ultranova]

We are finding cures in nature that have baffled science for many years. Science is about studying nature and learning from it. You're creating a dichotomy where there is none.

This is a non sequitur.

No it itsn't. A non-sequiter is a logical fallacy where the conclusion doesn't follow from premises. The grandparents claim is, as you noted yourself, a false dichotomy, which is a different fallacy than non-sequiter.

Re:Twitter?

[phasm42]

The grandparents claim is, as you noted yourself, a false dichotomy, which is a different fallacy than non-sequiter.

I stand corrected.

Re:Twitter?

[AK Marc]

I wouldn't normally reply to posts like yours... but then people might take you seriously.

And here I thought you'd be pointing out that English is not considered a Latin-based language (though there are many latin words, the structure and grammar was from an independent language).

Chinese is a very complex language, with subtle "grammar" rules which makes it hard to parse with an automaton.

Actually, I'd say it is nearly grammar-less. When translating, you must hear an entire sentence, understand the meaning, then translate the meaning. When I was learning some Chinese, I would ask questions about grammar and the response was "they'll understand what you mean." There are no tenses at all. "I drive ago" for "I have driven" or "I drive later" for "I will drive" would be the words used. There is only what we would consider the present tense, and time modifying words. If ever you hear someone who speaks Chinese have trouble with tenses, it's because even the idea of them doesn't exist in their native language. They aren't just learning a new language, they are learning a whole different way of thinking.

The simplification applies to Chinese characters only, basically establishing some kind of shorthand for writing complicated characters.

The simplification was to improve literacy. However, it has not achieved its goal. Taiwan almost exclusively uses Traditional (I think as a sign of independence from the mainland pushing Simplified). And those that are literate on the mainland that completed university will probably know both and use Simplified. But you still need to know Traditional because of its use in Taiwan and limited continued use on the mainland. Add to that the effect that handwritten Simplified is more confusing than handwritten Traditional, and the limited alphabet replacement is pretty useless and probably not achieving its stated goal of imcreasing literacy.

Cantonese and Mandarin are (among the many) spoken dialects, and have little to do with the written language.

Both spoken languages can be represented with the same printed characters, so they could be classified as a single language (with an "accent" that renders it indecipherable to those that aren't trained in that "accent"). The grammar rules are quite similar, helping one written language represent both, and with one written language representing two spoken languages, the combination could also be reasonably regarded as three separate languages, one unpronouncable and two unwritten. It's a unique linguistic situation that defies all traditional (European-based) descriptions. It would be about the same as if you decreed that French and Italian must be written the same, but that you still spoke it as you always have. We would think that impossible, and the Chinese did it and have made it work for quite a while.

Re:Twitter?

[sydneyfong]

Yeah I kept it simple because I replied just because I was uneasy that the GGP's misleading statements go unchallenged (some random reader might get the wrong impression).

My mother tongue is Cantonese and I speak passable Mandarin, so I know what you're talking about. You put it much better than I could have though :-)

I'll just add that AFAIK the reason Taiwan uses traditional characters is simple: when the PRC implemented the policy to use simplified characters they had no control over Taiwan, so the policy wasn't adopted there and thus they continued using the traditional characters. Same here in Hong Kong.

Re:Twitter?

[SnEptUne]

Not only that, Simplified Chinese just doesn't make much sense since it randomly removes part of a word to make it "simple", instead of using a scholar educated approach. It is said that Simplified Chinese is one of the greatest threat to the Chinese culture; it reduces meaningful characters to mere random symbols (e.g. love without heart?, ability becomes wood?).

Re:Twitter?

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Of course Chinese has grammar, just not the same kind of grammatic rules you'd expect in your native language. But this hardly makes it grammar-less. True, it has no tense. But when tense is important, you simply add the adjective, e.g., I "drive" yesterday, or I "drive" already, or I will drive, or I "drive" right now. If your local library doesn't have a book or two on Chinese grammar, try search Amazon for Chinese Grammar.

2. I guess your Chinese teacher is just trying to teach you the language, not the grammar. I've got quite a lot of Chinese classmates who can test 100% in English grammar, but can hardly speak the language and make effective use of the grammar other than passing the exams, while my elementary school English teacher taught me to totally ignore the grammar, just recite the texts.

3. Based on personal experience, Simplified Chinese has achieved its goal. For the same amount of time one can write at least twice as fast in simplified Chinese than in traditional Chinese. Most reasons against the simplification is aesthetic related. An analogy of using traditional Chinese would be forcing every English user to write in the Old English fonts like the following, with all the curves and corners: http://www.fontseek.com/fonts/old_english.htm.

This makes no sense to me. I can read in traditional English but can hardly write a single character. Recognizing traditional Chinese is not such a difficult job for anyone who receive education in simplified Chinese, just as you can easily read things printed in the old English fonts.

Re:Twitter?

[Anonymous Coward]

Morale of the story:

Listen to the Earth and all its children, and it may save you and your children.

Actually, the moral is: Don't believe that everything is well just because someone who's job it is to keep you pacified says so.

Now get off my lawn, you neo-pagan hippie :D!

And in the WTC, they told people arriving on the ground floor to return to their offices.

The moral of the story is: they don't give a fuck about you. So if you do, watch out for yourself and your family.

This is the future

[Robert1]

The instant an event happens anywhere in the world you have hundreds of cameras on it. This is a very, very good thing. Reporters and ground crews are no longer necessary to capture footage, you can get it de novo, unfiltered, unbiased. Of course, this only happens in a sufficiency advanced nation that has ubiquitous means of recording and means of transmission.

Which is interesting because I could swear China had a Youtube block to prevent such uncontrolled proliferation of footage.

Re:This is the future

[mrbluze]

Which is interesting because I could swear China had a Youtube block to prevent such uncontrolled proliferation of footage. Well if you try to build a rabbit proof fence, you'll just end up with clever rabbits.

Re:This is the future

[Taco Cowboy]

"Which is interesting because I could swear China had a Youtube block to prevent such uncontrolled proliferation of footage."

ENOUGH OF THE POLITICAL GARBAGE !!!

People are suffering and all you guys can think of is "youtube block", "human rights", and so on.

C'mon, guys, people are dying there and please, have a heart, wilya ??

Re:This is the future

[Chandon Seldon]

C'mon, guys, people are dying there and please, have a heart, wilya ??

People dying somehow make human rights stop being an issue?

If that's what you think, you're absolutely wrong. Human rights don't stop mattering because people die. They don't stop mattering if an earthquake hits. Or for a terrorist attack. Or even in an active war zone.

In this case, the news is good - China's notoriously problematic censorship system hasn't noticeably hurt people's ability to communicate vital information during a natural disaster. For many people, that means that China is measurably less repressive than they had feared. This fact is a perfectly valid topic for discussion in this thread.

Re:This is the future

[the_other_chewey]

People are suffering and all you guys can think of is "youtube block", "human rights", and so on.
C'mon, guys, people are dying there and please, have a heart, wilya ??

You mean as opposed to those heartless, brutal human rights activists?
Just because people are talking about various (un)related issues doesn't mean they don't care, you know.
And this was far from being unrelated.

Re:This is the future

[UltraAyla]

The fact that people are are and have died because of this earthquake does not make the means of transmission of the information less relevant. Robert1 was not heartless in anything he said, nor did he say anything inflammatory. His language, IMO, was relatively neutral.

I will say something potentially inflammatory though. The fact that there is an earthquake does not change the fact that this country violates human rights every day. To not discuss topical/relevant violations would be stupid. Hurricane Katrina did not mean that we should stop discussing the war in Iraq, did it? I realize there is a difference of scale, but I think the point stands.

The fact is, it is impressive that this much information on this quake is available in such a short time. I believe that was the point that your parent was making.

Re:This is the future

[maglor_83]

People are dying every day. Do you mourn all them too? Not to mention that he didn't even say anything insensitive in the first place.

Re:This is the future

[Suhas]

Let's say you have cancer, and I kick you in the nuts (assuming you have any). Now, should your doctor stop telling you about chemo because you got kicked in the nuts?

Didn't think so.

Re:This is the future

[lgw]

C'mon, this is one of the 5 or so classic trolls from the earliest days of /. "X people are dying of Y, and all you can talk about is Z!" is as old as Grits and Portman (naked and petrified). Even Netcraft confirms that old troll is old. Your UID is lower than mine, you should know better than to feed this one.

Re:This is the future

[zoogies]

I don't think that Youtube is blocked in China. I could be wrong, of course.

Re:This is the future

[zoogies]

Y'know, there's a time to make these fervent stands for political freedoms and human rights. But - ah - now just isn't it.

Re:This is the future

[siufish]

People dying somehow make human rights stop being an issue?

Yes. Human rights doesn't mean a damn thing to dead people.

Even the British Foreign Secretary said "the Chinese government are to be commended for their quick and efficient response". Shouldn't we give credit where it's due, instead of beating a dead horse?

Re:This is the future

[rumith]

The parent is perhaps the most insightful post in this whole thread. However, I still wonder two things:

1) While the footage that comes in from mobile phones and cameras is surely interesting to watch, how much does it really help people and how?

2) If it really vital ( = it does help), is there a chance that the Chinese censorship will be made more selective or even lifted altogether?

Re:This is the future

[iamacat]

People dying somehow make human rights stop being an issue? Yup, you can't very well exercise your human rights after death (or at least the issue is our of hands of the government). When there is an imminent danger of your or mass death, such as a war, natural disaster, epidemic or a suspected suicide attempt in progress, it's Ok for your privacy, liberty on involuntary labor rights to be temporarily violated. It is also not appropriate to rally against your dictator, military junta or totalitarian government for a limited period when they are using all their resources for combating a genuine emergency. I hope tibetan monks cool it off for a couple of months.

It's true that these concepts have been heavily abused, to the point of governments artificially starting wars (say, Iraq or Kosovo) to preserve the state of emergency. But I don't think chinese science is advanced enough to produce a massive artificial earthquake.

Re:This is the future

[sydneyfong]

I guess although it doesn't show that they don't care, it's indicative of their messed up priorities. (some of them, at least)

I've seen comments (not on slashdot, elsewhere) ranging from: "serves you right, commies!" to "why would they care? those sick bastards would be murdering their own people anyway" to various smartass comments.

Yeah should have made some sick waterboarding joke when Katrina struck...

[/rant]

Re:This is the future

[iNaya]

So we are supposed to forget everything because people are dying. Don't mean to burst your bubble, but normal people are perfectly capable of focussing on several different issues.

Just like a mother, if her son breaks through a window, she'll patch him up with one hand, and scold him with the other. There is no reason that a disaster should make politics go away. In fact a disaster should encourage politics, and often they do.

Also, you're telling people to shut up with their "POLITICAL GARBAGE", but you're spurting just as much as anyone else.

Re:This is the future

[IntelliTubbie]

The instant an event happens anywhere in the world you have hundreds of cameras on it. This is a very, very good thing. Reporters and ground crews are no longer necessary to capture footage, you can get it de novo, unfiltered, unbiased. And then, 12 hours later, Slashdot limps across the finish line! Technology may advance, but at least some things never change.

Cheers,
IT

Re:This is the future

[WindBourne]

first, there is little that we can do. I am sure that nearly everyone would like to hear that the deaths are minimized (and hopefully, it remains below 1000 and nobody on the site lost family or friends). But in the end, there will be little that can be done by members here. Perhaps, a fund will be set up to help the victims, of which money should be sent in.

In the mean time, these discussion will be all over the board. I am sure that it will include China's trying to hide the real number of deaths (censorship), and will move back to America's Censorship (such as Sibel Edmunds or the telcos incidents) and will of course be compared to how America handled Katrina as well as Burma/Myammar's recent cyclone incident. And this is the place for such discussion.

Re:This is the future

[Ritz_Just_Ritz]

I'm sitting in my flat in Beijing watching the "goldfish video" on youtube right now. The download was a bit slow, but it's not blocked.

Don't get me wrong, China's censorship is lame and probably won't last much longer as it just becomes too difficult to accomplish, but it's not as all encompassing as people think. The pr0n must flow.

Cheers,

Re:This is the future

[Xest]

"For many people, that means that China is measurably less repressive than they had feared."

I'd disagree on this point, even news of the Burma cyclone and riots got out but that didn't mean the authorities were any less repressive than everyone thought. The fact they're preventing aid workers and a lot of aid entering the country is evidence enough.

I think what it really shows is that human determination is more powerful and capable than any form of repression is to block it.

Re:This is the future

[DerWulf]

You are right of course except that this tragedy is unfolding right at this moment. Discussions about the USA's foreign policy this short after 9/11 where just as insufferable as speaking of human rights in the context of this disaster.

Also one should consider that it's never the "movers & shakers" that are afflicted by something like this, only the peons ever die. Anyone who truly thinks they have more in common with the people in their respective governments than with that receptionist you saw in that video does not understand how the world works.

Re:This is the future

[sydneyfong]

Actually, more like 24 hours later.

Re:This is the future

[Anonymous Coward]

I think he just meant that "youtube block" note to be ... just a sidenote. His main thrust was basically "wow, we get better access to these news because of the the internet ... and wow, china didn't block youtube like I thought they had, good"

I mean, while it's sick to make smartass political statements here, it's not like we have to cry all day on slashdot because of the disaster.

Don't get oversensitive.

Re:This is the future

[Daengbo]

I'd go so far as to say that this site is specifically for antisocial geeks and that there will probably be a lower percentage of people on this discussion with empathy than there would be in a general forum.

Chalk it up to Asberger's, I guess.

Re:This is the future

[pimpimpim]

I know several people from countries with known "problematic censorship". Trust me, as long as they are exposed to modern technology, any technological block will be avoided and the word will get out. There are a lot of smart people out there, why do you think that on any US universities you will find a lot of people from China? Not because they are "cheap labor". As long there is a will, there is a way. North Korea is the most problematic here, the poor people are very efficiently blocked from every scientific advancement since the 50s.

For all the other countries, be sure that any citizen will have access to as much technology as he want and is willing to afford. As far as how much you believe they are limited and you aren't, you should do a reality check with this interestingly two-sided movie from the 50's on how to recognize propaganda .

Re:This is the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I must confess I did make one sick Katrina joke. I grew up with my mom saying clean your plate and dont waste food ; millions of people in Africa don't even have water to drink. When Katrina struck I had a 1.5 year old son and I started cajoling him to finish his food by saying finish your food, hundreds of people in New Orleans don't even have water to drink... Sick but just too good to resist given how our generation grew up on the party line "USA is made of milk and honey"

Re:This is the future

[martin-boundary]

No, no, Slashdot has standards! When was the last time you saw some silly story about homemade floppy guns or such on the frontpage, hmm? That earthquake could have been faked!

Thank God the Slashdot editors worked overtime to double and triple check everything and they even followed up several exclusive leads, but in the end they decided to keep things simple for the average reader, and sadly all that extra work was ruthlessly cut out from the story.

Ask Jack Bauer sometime how much stuff can happen behind the scenes in 12 hours.

Re:This is the future

[LS]

FYI:

Youtube is currently NOT bocked in China.

Re:This is the future

[dalutong]

What is up with the anti-China stint? It's like a comment in a Burma thread saying, "I'm surprised America sent any aid to Burma. Usually they just go in, take over the country, and have hundreds of thousands of people killed and torture anyone who disagrees with them."

I already said it in this story, but the greatest trick every played on the American people is convincing them that they government is the way it is because they want it to be that way. And I understand that it isn't easy to see America as simplistically since a lot of the people here are American. But the Chinese are insulted, rightfully so, when they are characterized the way they are. It's like they can't catch a break. They adopt economic reforms? America cheers. They become enough of an economic power that they're now lending money to the United States? They're described as some manipulative power we shouldn't let ourselves be dependent on. They bring literacy up past the levels in the U.S. and they're criticized for stealing our jobs. You think the Chinese people live in fear? Hell no. The American people live in fear, a totally irrational fear, constructed by our government and made possible by our ignorance.

Go to China. You will be amazed. It's not backwards. It's not closed. It's a modern(izing) country. And every time we refuse to treat it as an equal, it will become more antagonistic. In part, because it will see us as hypocrites. Want China to stop working with the Sudanese? Get out of Iraq. Stop funding Saudi Arabia. Apologize for your past transgressions. Until you do that, China's not going to consider itself the lesser of the two. You want to see China become better? Treat it as a partner. Otherwise, you will make it your enemy.

Re:This is the future

[v1]

I'm sure that was not uploaded directly to youtube. With all the TS videos on youtube I'm sure they can't go there at all let alone upload.

For better or for worse, this looks like a cyber cafe, so they likely had knowledgeable people there to find ways around the great firewall, but odds are The State was quick to figure out which cafe that video was taken at and by this point someone's locked up over this hitting youtube.

It'd have been a better watch if the video hadn't been taken so far from the epicenter. That was what, about a 4.5 at the location of the video? If that'd have been a 7 that building probably wouldn't have lasted more than a few seconds before things started coming down, including the camera. (and the fish)

Re:This is the future

[Ex-MislTech]

To me, these measly "over 240.000" people don't really matter. Many of them probably didn't deserve to live anyway, others might just have contributed to the solution for the over-population of our earth.

Among these people could have been the next great scientist,
or someone that could have contributed to the world in a
significant manner.

If all the ppl in the world were put in Texas, everyone would
get roughly 1,152 sq feet.

So to me the over population hysteria is just a myth.

Food growth with vertical hydroponics could took the place
of large land plots and actually be cheaper once the
engineering is fine tuned.

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS199249+13-Mar-2008+MW20080313

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroponics#Commercial

125 million lbs on 256 acres, ie. less than .5 sq miles in one yr.

10,000 sq miles would be 2.5 trillion lbs. and that is
just 100 miles by 100 miles.

This is with just conventional hydroponics, not Vertical
Growth High Density which yields 20 times standard soil yields.

If half the area of the farmers in the US that are PAID to
grow nothing did this it would feed the world MANY times over.

It needs to be done diversely around the world in areas
that are considered non arable, because hydroponics works
on land that is not even good for farming once you get
a decent water supply and some type of nutrients.

One natural loop method is fish in the water, and insects
for their food, and the insects as food for each other as well.

Catfish in Vietnam get up to 646 lbs.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/06/photogalleries/giantcatfish/

Much like occurs in nature, but add natural stimulus factors for
each of the participant species.

I also think at some distant time we will need to move out
into space if our species is to survive at all.

More than one planet killer has struck earth and originated
from earth itself.

1) Gamma Ray Burst
2) Super volcano
3) Asteroid or Comet Impact

Population Freakazoids even have their own monument:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones

Re:This is the future

[Mr. Underbridge]

Let's say you have cancer, and I kick you in the nuts (assuming you have any). Now, should your doctor stop telling you about chemo because you got kicked in the nuts?

Except you got the priorities backward. It's like you have a hangnail and somebody kicks me in the balls, and you keep complaining about your hangnail. Wouldya shut up for a minute? We'll talk about your hangnail again when I stop writhing on the ground.

Same thing here. I'm not in favor of China's government, but let's stop berating China for their censorship record while we try to save what could be millions of people who need help.

Re:This is the future

[Keychain]

Oh the damned rabbit . but i'll get him one day McGregor

Re:This is the future

[jmac1492]

Actually, more like once in 12 hours and again in 24 hours. And then again a few weeks later.

Re:This is the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Youtube has been open for some time. BBC, wikipedia and blogger are all accessible. After the olympics, who knows, but for now the internet is a lot more open over here.

Re:This is the future

[sydneyfong]

If you've been on youtube during the Tibet sentiment a while ago with people on both sides swearing at each other, you'd notice that some actually do come from mainland China.

Re:This is the future

[Anonymous Coward]

> Human rights don't stop mattering because people die.

Sure they stop mattering once everyone is dead...

Re:This is the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I must confess I did make one sick Katrina joke. . . .

  . . . When Katrina struck I had a 1.5 year old son and I started cajoling him to finish his food by saying finish your food, hundreds of people in New Orleans don't even have water to drink. Sorry, dude - your joke sucks. I don't get it.

Re:This is the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Some video footage initially appeared on Chinese video-sharing sites such as Youku or Tudou. Youtube has been unblocked there since around the end of March.

Re:This is the future

[joeytmann]

While this is all pretty much accurate, you are forgetting one thing. Distribution. If the distribution channels suck, which they do on a global scale, it doesn't matter how much food you produce when all it does is sit in a warehouse rotting. At this point in time the US produces enough wheat for more than the population of the world, we just can't get it to the places that need it, if they want it.

Re:This is the future

[augnober]

Think of this another way. Every time a story about Canada comes up, someone always lets out a "Blame Canada". Every time a story about China comes up, someone starts talking about human rights and cold war throwbacks. People come back to the same convenient references because there is no breadth or depth to their familiarity. It's mechanical and pathetic.

Re:This is the future

[Beyond_GoodandEvil]

They're described as some manipulative power we shouldn't let ourselves be dependent on.
Actually, that's just good economic sense to avoid mortgaging ones future, doesn't matter whether it's the Chinese, the Japanese or the Europeans who are holding large sums of US National Debt. Just b/c the US is in Iraq, doesn't make the victims of the Janjuweed any less dead. Likewise, the US not signing Kyoto doesn't make the air over Beijing any less clear. If you want China to be accepted on the world stage, then stop acting like a victim and expecting everyhody to apologize for 19th and early 20th century colonialism, also stop thinking of all non-Chinese as barbarians.

Re:This is the future

[ultranova]

ENOUGH OF THE POLITICAL GARBAGE !!!

Politics stops being "garbage" when people get jailed, killed or otherwise abused because of it.

People are suffering and all you guys can think of is "youtube block", "human rights", and so on.

Yes. We can do nothing about the earthquake or its victims, but we can rejoice that Chinese government's grip on its subjects is not as tight as it seems, since that will likely curb the worst abuses of power it will subject said subjects to - in other words, make them suffer less.

C'mon, guys, people are dying there and please, have a heart, wilya ??

People also suffer and die when human rights are violated. That's the very reason they are so important. Should we ignore those people just because the earthquake is flashier ?

Re:This is the future

[augnober]

I agree completely. Since living in China for some time, I have been constantly sickened by how Americans perceive the rest of the world. It is false righteousness veiling extreme ignorance and self-interest at every convenience.

Re:This is the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup. Only just got youtube back after it was shut down with the whole Tibet mess. Gate's slammed down again as of this morning (about 12 hours after quake) - didn't immediately connect the two but it looks like it.
Luckily the rabbit-proof fence isn't up to anon proxies yet.

Re:This is the future

[HeronBlademaster]

I mod you +1 Interesting/Insightful in spirit, since I don't have mod points.

Re:This is the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Your disappearing from earth will do much to resolve the over-population of the earth also.

Re:This is the future

[Chandon Seldon]

It is also not appropriate to rally against your dictator, military junta or totalitarian government for a limited period when they are using all their resources for combating a genuine emergency.

That's absurd. Not only is it time to rally against a totalitarian government, it may be the perfect time to start an active rebellion. Any government that is repressing its populace is implicitly asking to be overthrown - when to do it is simply a question of tactics, and "when they're distracted" tends to be a good tactical choice.

Re:This is the future

[HeronBlademaster]

How many of us, the ones posting on slashdot, are actually doing anything to help? Talking about the earthquake does nothing to help them; talking about the human rights issues might get more people to try to do something about it. We can't do anything about the earthquake, we can do something about the human rights issues.

To change your analogies a bit, it's more like someone has a gun to your head, then someone else comes along and cuts your foot off. Just because your foot is cut off doesn't mean the mugger will take the gun from your head...

Re:This is the future

[will.perdikakis]

But I don't think chinese science is advanced enough to produce a massive artificial earthquake. And even if they did. It would be really underwhelming and not last too long. /racist comment

Re:This is the future

[Chandon Seldon]

Shouldn't we give credit where it's due, instead of beating a dead horse?

Complaining about active and/or recent human rights violations will never be "beating a dead horse". Some issues get old and boring - this one never does.

That's not to say that we shouldn't give the Chinese government full credit for effective disaster response, probably with a reference to how much better they did than the US did for Hurricane Katrina. But just because they did a good job at one thing today doesn't magically mean that something bad they've been doing for years has gone away.

Re:This is the future

[Chandon Seldon]

Y'know, there's a time to make these fervent stands for political freedoms and human rights. But - ah - now just isn't it.

I vehemently disagree. It's always the time to make a stand for political freedoms and human rights.

If there were ever a circumstance (say, war) that would make it "not the time", tyrants would make damn sure that that circumstance were always true.

Re:This is the future

[__aaxwdb6741]

I'm a nihilist...
so yeah, you are absolutely correct.

Re:This is the future

[Ex-MislTech]

We get food to ppl in Ethiopia without a problem.

The problem is the Warlords horde it and dole it out
for loyalty to their cause.

Shipping goods is not the issue, china is now the master of that.

The smart way to do this would be with no Distribution at all,
ie. save the fuel costs and have the growing facilities
locally instead of just one location.

My post explains that the food can be grown densely in a small
area on non arable land, and thus most countries around the
world could do it as well.

They just choose to be corrupt and kill their own ppl.

As morbid as that sounds.

Re:This is the future

[Chandon Seldon]

I already said it in this story, but the greatest trick every played on the American people is convincing them that they government is the way it is because they want it to be that way.

As an American, I absolutely agree.

But "we're not perfect, therefore we can't criticize anyone else" is an invalid argument. Any government that violates human rights deserves criticism.

Re:This is the future

[__aaxwdb6741]

And how exactly is that supposed to help the fact that these people are now GONE and you should rather look at the bright side of it instead of wasting time better spent at actualizing the ideas you are writing about instead of remorsing about what is already gone or convincing me that my fatalist view of the world is incorrect?

It's not the food or space that is the problem. The problem is that we as humans have an extremely heavy footprint on this planets surface, and each and every one of us would be better off if the other half would just die.

Re:This is the future

[Chandon Seldon]

Excellent point.

The best response to that is probably to engage in conversation and ask for details - that way the discussion thread can be made to contain more depth, which will allow the people reading it to have more understanding.

Re:This is the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah should have made some sick waterboarding joke when Katrina struck... Lolled, shamed, lolled, ... thinking about a hand of God furiously waterboarding people of the South over the sins of the North, replace (South,North) with (Poor,Rich) or (Black,White)...

Well, the joke definitely has some current potential.

Re:This is the future

[Anonymous Coward]

C'mon, guys, people are dying there and please, have a heart, wilya ??

People dying somehow make human rights stop being an issue?

If that's what you think, you're absolutely wrong. Human rights don't stop mattering because people die. They don't stop mattering if an earthquake hits. Or for a terrorist attack. Or even in an active war zone.

In this case, the news is good - China's notoriously problematic censorship system hasn't noticeably hurt people's ability to communicate vital information during a natural disaster. For many people, that means that China is measurably less repressive than they had feared. This fact is a perfectly valid topic for discussion in this thread.

I know how it feels though i don't well cant safe a life i WILL try i read this article and feel for you i know i am only14 years old i can make a difference in someones life so hold on global worming has made this and it can undoo this
sencerly yours
StephanIe PROWE

Re:This is the future

[hiryuu]

The instant an event happens anywhere in the world you have hundreds of cameras on it. This is a very, very good thing. Reporters and ground crews are no longer necessary to capture footage, you can get it de novo, unfiltered, unbiased.

I seem to recall David Brin making just such a proposition in Kiln People, where anyone who wanted to be was a freelance journalist with portable/remote cameras, network feed for commentary and statements and discussion, etc. - one had merely to search for the event and pick what feeds/sources you wanted to have, pay a real-time subscription, and there's your news.

Re:This is the future

[jd]

Why would it be blocked? This specific video shows (a) that Chinese goldfish are highly intelligent, and (b) everyone getting out safely, which are perfect propoganda pieces in a disaster. I'd have thought that if video were to "leak out", the authorities would be only too happy for these to be stories of their successes. I'd be far far more interested in knowing what video footage has leaked out from areas significantly affected. It wouldn't be as much, under any circumstances, due to it being mostly rural areas (aside from one major city) and due to the fact that loss of power makes delivery of information difficult, but if you factor all that in, is what we are getting more than we'd expect, the same, or less?

Bear in mind that China isn't the only country that's restricting coverage of newsworthy events. Almost all countries - including most Western ones - also do so. Politicians are far happier about allowing coverage of disasters affecting those they don't like. The Internet will only achieve true freedom of speech when what news you can see can no longer be cynically manipulated. The problem is, the reverse seems to happen in some cases. The Internet and mass media can be used to drown out coverage, and viral techniques are just as useful for disseminating edited and fabricated evidence as they are for circulating honest reports.

Without any effective means of knowing truth from falsehood, all the Internet does is increase the volume. If you cannot differentiate between signal and noise, it is safer to assume that more volume just means more noise.

Re:This is the future

[Ex-MislTech]

convincing me that my fatalist view of the world is incorrect?

I don't think I can convince the stubborn and post humanist
to be something they are not.

But with freedom of speech I can voice my opinion, just as they did.

every one of us would be better off if the other half would just die.

Again, your opinion agrees with the Georgia guidestones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones

And I, as a possible representative of the ppl you think just
need to die. It might be you that has a post apocalyptic date
with fate foretold by the man 28 years ago that paid $50,000 cash
to say 6 billion ppl need to die.

When his group of cabal minded folks check you out, you
can shout "what a great idea !" and I might agree with you
from my underground shelter in the midwest.

Adios~

Re:This is the future

[__aaxwdb6741]

I don't discriminate in who should die, if just half of everybody would do it.

Re:This is the future

[iamacat]

And how well does your new putsch represent people if it is willing to leave 25000 to die in earthquake rubble when the old government is at least getting people out, distributing food and rebuilding? Maybe you should think of more than tactical issues.

Re:This is the future

[Cu]

As I write this, your comment is moderated 4: insightful. I disagree. Instead, it seems to be a bald assertion without supporting logic or evidence.

The nature of totalitarian regimes requires they exploit a threat to cow the populace. (see Iraq, Myanmar, China, USSR) This requirement often extends beyond totalitarian regimes to others who would limit rights. (see Civil War suspension of habeus, WWII Japanese internment, Guantanamo) You ignore by way of a straw man a fundamental problem of allowing anyone, for any period, to suppress your rights: the rights turn into privileges--luxuries for better times. I agree that you cannot enjoy a right when you are dead. I believe a comparably hyerbolic statement would be "what good is life if it is controlled cradle to grave by someone else?"

Certainly, the onset of a crisis does not preclude the discussion of human rights violations. Those violations have not paused in Myanmar and China. We must be vigilant in opposing human rights violations. Even when they cease, we should continue to talk about them; upholding the conversation keeps the memory fresh.

Re:This is the future

[joeman3429]

Would it be acceptable that instead of half of us just dying that half of us stop reproducing and live out our days while the other half makes sure that their numbers do not increase?

Re:This is the future

[Anonymous Coward]

right on, dude.

when a major disaster happens like this, the 1st thing comes into your mind is about rights instead of people's life.

make a judgment only after you see it with your own eyes, it's so easy to blame on others, not on yourself.

your ignorance will pay the price someday eventually.

Re:This is the future

[iamacat]

You ignore by way of a straw man You should brush up your understanding fallacies. Straw man is arguing about a weaker position than what you are really trying to discredit, please point out where I have done that. On the other hand, your post contains a slippery slope fallacy (You ignore by way of a straw man a fundamental problem of allowing anyone, for any period, to suppress your rights: the rights turn into privileges--luxuries for better times) and a proof by example fallacy (The nature of totalitarian regimes requires they exploit a threat to cow the populace. (see Iraq, Myanmar, China, USSR)). I don't know that Chinese even consider themselves particularly threatened.

Re:This is the future

[joeman3429]

Nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.

Re:This is the future

[joeman3429]

while your comment is pretty... shabby, it does bring up a good point. If a planet the size of earth crashed into us, I'm willing to bed that people would die pretty much instantly from many different causes. That being said, there would be no need to feel sympathy for any of the entire planet's population.

there would be no suffering, so parents sad over the deaths of their children, no anything to feel anything about. The only reason we're sympathetic at all is because there are other people left to feel sympathy for.

Re:This is the future

[joeman3429]

yeah, it's not even a joke. It's very applicable. It would be a reasonable thing to say, unless you think it's funny that kids in africa don't have food either.

Re:This is the future

[joeman3429]

My god, so many applicable analogies! Which do I trust? *head explodes*

Re:This is the future

[ultranova]

Except you got the priorities backward. It's like you have a hangnail and somebody kicks me in the balls, and you keep complaining about your hangnail. Wouldya shut up for a minute? We'll talk about your hangnail again when I stop writhing on the ground.

Dictatorship is not a hangnail. It is a cancer. It isn't a small inconvenience; it kills people just as dead as an earthquake, and has killed a lot more of them than this particular earthquake.

Chinese dictatorship is no less a disaster than this earthquake; it is simply a chronic one, rather than an acute one. In fact, by body count, it is a worse disaster than the earthquake, just less flashy.

So, while it is idiotic to criticize the Chinese government when it actually seems to be doing right by its subjects for once, it is just as idiotic to compare it to a hangnail.

Re:This is the future

[mgabrys_sf]

Oh noes - pitty the best comments on earthquakes in China come from it's own. Here's a fine one from Madame Mao in 1976:

There were merely several hundred thousand deaths. So what? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Tangshan_earthquake

So what indeed.

Re:This is the future

[dalutong]

There's nothing wrong with criticism. But we need to be similarly critical of ourselves. If we aren't willing to acknowledge our own faults, then all we're building is resentment. If the goal is really to help people of the world live better lives, then the question shouldn't be "what is the Chinese government doing that is causing this?" It should be, "what is the most effective way for me to ensure that China's modernization includes a concern for human welfare?"

And we need to be fair. There are growing pains. No country can go from Cultural Revolution China into Perfect Modern China overnight.

Re:This is the future

[dalutong]

That's the point -- China is not acting like a victim. And we hate that. China is doing what is necessary to be effective in the modern world.

re: our indebtedness
it was an example of how China can't catch a break, not a commentary on economic policy. My point was that no matter what China does it's painted as something dark, when all China did was out compete us. In America, we say "let the better man win." We don't hate google because it out shined yahoo. But we hate China because is is able to out compete us, at least in terms of their ability to grant loans.

re: Iraq and Kyoto
I don't quite get your janjuweed comment. I assume it's an argument about why we shouldn't pull out. My only point was that we have shown support for similarly "questionable" actions as the Chinese. As for Kyoto, you raise a good point. China is going to have to deal with environmentalism very quickly. It's becoming disgustingly polluted. Fortunately, the government isn't totally unaware of this problem. And some of the reason it is is because of the Olympics (more on that later)

re: apologizing/barbarians
This wasn't about playing the victim. It's about being sick of American arrogance. We in America believe that we're on the forefront of development and that everyone in the world is at some lesser stage. That development is linear. But people in the world don't like being treated as lessers, no matter how much you think you deserve to be considered the greater of the two. That's why China, and India, and Brazil, and Turkey, are able to find so many partners in the world: they are willing to "meet people where they are", to treat them as equals. That can be dangerous, because it can support people who, in my opinion, don't deserve support. But it's a political reality we can either choose to deal with or blissfully ensure our own increased obsolescence.

I said this in another post: we are making the wrong statements when we talk about China. We look to see what they're doing wrong. The question we should be asking is, "how do we best ensure that human rights/ environment/ whatever are given proper consideration while China modernizes?" Otherwise all China sees is jealousy, hypocrisy, and arrogance. And that won't make China, or their place in the world, any better.

Re:This is the future

[Anonymous Coward]

She's pretty much considered as the "bad guys" by everybody along with the other members of Gang of Four.

And if you read my other comments I've mentioned that the "better" ones I've heard come from the Chinese... :-/

Re:This is the future

[Cu]

On your first point you are certainly right. I am woefully ignorant particularly in regards to logical fallacy.

My understanding is that one form of straw man is misstating another person's argument and refuting that misstatement. You refer to the disruption of governmental activity otherwise directed towards relief. The parent referred to talking about Chinese oppression on slashdot.

I need further explanation on the other two. Is your last sentence in support of the suggestion that I have included a proof by example fallacy?

Finally, I have a question to the earlier point. Do you believe that this disaster in China should in some way preclude us from talking about human rights abuses in China?

Re:This is the future

[v1]

just another variation on the chirping, although sure does sound harsher than usual. They're usually a higher frequency, and purer tone, that one's raspy. Either way though, there's probably nothing you personally can do for it. If it's not detecting, you have to solve that problem first. Sometimes freezing it helps. But when it's chirping like that there's usually no saving it at home. Drives that tend to click loudly during access and eventually stop responding seem to have the best odds of saving something from.

this took ages to make headlines

[Anonymous Coward]

Ive been look on various sites, trying to see how many sources had it.
But apparently 'Brittany may visit mother' is bigger news.

Re:this took ages to make headlines

[RiotingPacifist]

Im fairly sure this was all over the news, covered on BBC radio & tv, hell even Wikinews had this covered by 8:00am GMT (midnight PST) yesterday morning.

Re:this took ages to make headlines

[ockegheim]

For the people who were only shaken up, they probably get earthquakes all the time, so it wouldn't be news. The people "on the ground" would have been busy saving people. It takes a while for a big event to filter through, for the news publishers to know it's worth publishing about.

News for Nerds?

[Awptimus Prime]

Has /. just become a general news site? What's this got to do with flailing on Microsoft or promoting Linux?

Re:News for Nerds?

[Prien715]

You remember "the stuff that matters" part?

Seriously.

Re:News for Nerds?

[snotclot]

I think they just wanted an excuse to use the Quake game icon...

Re:News for Nerds?

[Revenger75]

They had to find a semi-worthwhile story to put up because they were running out of advertisements like the one here and this one. Interesting how this disaster gets a slashdot article, but the cyclone in Burma didn't, unless I missed something.

Re:News for Nerds?

[Wyatt Earp]

Well, it could be up because Intel has a plant over there. Friend of mine who works in Fab design said the Intel plant is fine, nothing wrong.

Or it could be part of the "news for nerds" and "stuff that matters", like the WTC attack being on /.

Re:News for Nerds?

[William Robinson]

:-D

You know, it made me smile more, when I saw "Compare prices on Quake" in the related links.

Re:News for Nerds?

[houghi]

This is soooo obvious geek related. Fish? Camera? Fishcam? Netscape!

Re:News for Nerds?

[enoz]

Is it stuff that matters because it is a large scale disaster, or because someone upped some footage onto the internet?

I think it must be the internet angle, otherwise there should be a /. story about the Myanmar Cyclone?

Re:News for Nerds?

[Revenger75]

Don't mind me. Finals start tomorrow and my pocket protector is in a knot.

Re:News for Nerds?

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking of stuff that matters,,,,

Know little myself about earthquakes but am hoping to hear from some that visit here that do, on the matter of whether or not the involved faults and inland location on this earthquake are similar enough to those in the inland areas of the US to help predict what might happen if there is a repeat of what happened in southeastern Missouri in December of 1811 when the area was much lower population then it is now. That earthquake, and some that followed it, were estimated in the 7.8 - 8.0 range and like this quake in China was felt over a huge geographical area, the Missouri quake was felt in Georgia and as far away as Quebec, Canada. It is said to have caused the church bells in Boston to ring, sidewalks to have cracked in Washing D.C., wiped out the town closest to its epicenter, created new lakes, caused much land to drop down several feet in elevation and the Mississippi river to run backwards for three days.

Also wonder what conditions at what magnitude that there might be a "tsunami of land". The ocean can carry away energies produced by earthquakes near or under them and in some ways act as a buffer of sorts, but what happens when the only buffer is land?

There is much here that should be of interest to many kinds of nerds whether geologists, physicists, doctors, lawyers, computer nerds, etc etc etc. There might even be some Brits reading here that know one or more of the twenty of their missing countrymen over there. Have a heart folks, this needs to be studied, they need assistance over there and we may one day need assistance here in a similar fashion.

Re:News for Nerds?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's a general news website, it's a very slow one. On the intertubes, this is old, old news now.

Re:News for Nerds?

[renegadesx]

Don't know but I saw "Twitter" there somewhere

Re:News for Nerds?

[coaxial]

Well at least another section is being misused besides enlightenment.

(It's this dumbass!)

Re:News for Nerds?

[Anonymous Coward]

There was a story on the WTC attack and the 2005 tsunami as well.

Re:News for Nerds?

[pangu]

I knew we could control the weather.... But now we're taking orders for Quakes? /conspiracy theory

Re:News for Nerds?

[dreamchaser]

Tsunamis are not caused directly by the earthquake per se. They are caused when said earthquake causes a rapid displacement in the water, either due to an undersea avalance or a sudden drop/rise in a part of the ocean floor.

The reason earthquakes in the center/east of the U.S. are felt farther away than those on the west coast is because much of the eastern U.S. is bedrock. The shockwaves travel much farther because the substrate is denser and more 'solid'.

Re:News for Nerds?

[gr8dude]

Well, here's one for you then - this earthquake will most likely have an impact on the price of hardware exported by China. It depends on how much the industrialized areas were affected.

Expect the prices on computer parts to go up.

Re:News for Nerds?

[ravrazor]

Once Quake version 8.0 comes out, it's gonna be even better...

Re:News for Nerds?

[bkr1_2k]

"The ocean can carry away energies produced by earthquakes near or under them and in some ways act as a buffer of sorts, but what happens when the only buffer is land?"

Basically, shit falls down, mountains are "made" and lakes are made, etc. etc.

As example the "big" earthquake in California, in 1989 that that collapsed a section of the San Francisco Bay bridge and took out the Embarcadero in San Francisco was a 7.1 but only killed 60-70 people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loma_Prieta_earthquake

As someone else mentioned, the difference in damage and feeling it a long way away has to do with the way the plates are and the fact that the entire eastern seaboard of the US out to about illinois etc, are all on the same piece of bedrock.

Re:News for Nerds?

[Anonymous Coward]

This matters? I guess if you're there it might. Otherwise, it really doesn't

Re:News for Nerds?

[Awptimus Prime]

I doubt it. Not unless factories were destroyed, which doesn't seem to be a problem right now.

Gotta remember, China is socialist so disasters don't have as immediate an impact on pricing as, say, a plant in Texas getting destroyed. The government can step in and subsidize temporarily until things get back on track there.

A tragedy...

[iamdrscience]

I shudder to think how many lives could have been saved if only they had spent less time on chinese fire drills and more time on chinese earthquake drills.

Re:A tragedy...

[KGIII]

Dude... Chill.. We have enough people on the planet. If a few die then think of it as mother nature shedding some skin cells like when you wash your hands. It is okay for you to be sorry and unhappy but to be so aggressive in your desire to make other people feel as you do is just not going to cut it.

Re:A tragedy...

[msuarezalvarez]

You do not read the news much, do you?, if you think that now people are suffering and now feel the need to start making these dumb remarks.

Re:A tragedy...

[Anonymous Coward]

I get where you're coming from, I really do. And I have great sympathy for the people who are suffering due to this earthquake, and the recent cyclone. No joke.

But seriously, making cracks about something you have absolutely no control over in any which way is not that uncommon a thing to do. And what else is there to say? Variations on 'I hope things go OK for them'? A link to the ICRC? Really, there isn't much to say on the topic.

A teacher of mine once pointed out that people - almost to a man - would mourn the loss of a finger more than they would mourn a disaster such as that which we're talking about. It's sad, but true - we simply care more about things we're attached to in some way (no pun intended, but I'll let it through anyway).

I, personally, have no family, friends or acquaintances in the quake zone. I have no particularly strong group identification with the people affected. This disaster, this tragedy, is in a real way foreign to me.

So yes, you are absolutely correct that my jokes were tasteless. But, in the final equation, a bit of detached wit in the face of a disaster on the other side of the world doesn't put me much lower on the moral totam pole than you; it isn't, in my not so humble opinion, very much worse of a reaction than your fiery brand of moralizing.

Re:A tragedy...

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you just equate skin cells with people's lives? Do you get some sort of satisfaction in being an internet tough guy and casually brushing off the fact that thousands of people died? Go to hell.

Re:A tragedy...

[Scaba]

Ummm, strangers die everyday. People have been suffering for as long as there have been people, and will continue to suffer long into the future. Get over it. Your feigned outrage isn't going to save anyone, or help avoid any tragedies.

Re:A tragedy...

[KGIII]

I did. I do. I stand by what I said. I do so without cowering behind AC. Yes, yes I did. Frankly, honestly, we have too many people on the planet in my opinion and failure to be good to our host (Earth) is really starting to result in some huge catastrophic events. When people die in those natural causes I view them as, well, natural causes and while I feel the losses of their families and understand that people are going to be scarred by this I also see it as a natural progression. My point, in it's entirety, is that he (and you) can feel as ever you want but I know that, without a doubt, it is okay for me to have my feelings. To insult another's view is just debasing oneself which you surely just did and I congratulate you now go die in an earthquake...

Re:A tragedy...

[zoogies]

Your point of view is fine and reasonable; and your bravery of not hiding behind AC is surely to be commended by all who read your posts.

It's just that when you say, "Dude, chill, we have enough people on the planet" you tend to come off as, well, an insensitive clod. Hopefully nobody says that to you when someone you know dies.

Re:A tragedy...

[zoogies]

I appreciate this post.

Sometimes, for the sake of those who are or may be affected, it is better to keep silent if you have nothing sensible to say.

But I can certainly identify with feeling disconnected and foreign to great tragedies that have no personal bearing on me.

Re:A tragedy...

[h4rm0ny]

And you think disasters like this have a long term effect on the World's population why? Have you seen the speed with which the human race can repopulate itself after wars and disasters? No - the loss here is not in terms of overall population which you seem to think would be a good thing, but in human knowledge, experience peace and happiness. This is a great loss and it doesn't bring benefits in the way you seem to think.

Re:A tragedy...

[KGIII]

I will respond to both of you in kind, but then I must sleep. The person I was responding to was going, well, bat shit. They were going down through every post ranting at anyone who had anything to say other than expressing sorrow. I admit, freely, that I'm not really that sensitive. Race, gender, religion, etc... Those don't really matter so I personally don't really care one bit who died where and when. What I do know is that I, personally, am far more less likely to care if someone runs around telling people that they have to care. For the record (such as /. is) I'm guilty of having said nearly the same thing in what close people considered tragic. I honestly can't think of anything more natural than deaths due to a natural disaster. I see it as insensive as well but I figured it needed to be said with the way they were going off on people.

Re:A tragedy...

[zoogies]

Fair enough. Given the original poster, your response is certainly understandable, at least.

Re:A tragedy...

[KGIII]

My post was eaten but I sent one. It was much along the lines of this. It was more on target but not too much different so I hope that's okay. If not then I'll re-do it tomorrow when I wake up.

Re:A tragedy...

[KGIII]

That URL would have been this. But I'm sleeping... I even ignored the bit about checking the URLs. :D

Re:A tragedy...

[giorgist]

Sooooo ... dunbars number not withstanding you should just accept tragedy without compassion ?

Re:A tragedy...

[Daengbo]

I'll go further and admit that in the aftermath of the 1985 eruption and mudslide at Nevado del Ruiz, I laughed all day at a mental image of the disaster which I couldn't get rid of. Yeah, it was crass.

Just to be clear, though, people die. Lots of them die, They die every year and every day. There is no rhyme or reason. Who gets taken isn't fair.

This disaster pales in comparison to the nearly 3/4 million premature deaths caused each year in China due to air and water pollution.

I want Taco Cowboy to talk about nothing else than pollution in China until that atrocity ends.

Re:A tragedy...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not "hiding" behind AC - I just don't care to be modded into the ground for throwing around a few bad words. There is of course a point of view that on a macro scale these sort of things don't matter. That point of view is reasonably acceptable when you're talking about the greater good: such as the evil dictator whose overthrowing would kill many more than he executes. That isn't the case here. There is no benefit to humankind here. I also don't care if you don't care. What I care about is the dickish, careless way it was put. Dude, chill, it's only ten thousand people plus no big deal, right brosef?

Comparing the deaths of thousands to shedding skin cells is even beyond the normal libertarian-objectivist trash that gets posted on the tubes after these events happen and your attempts to rationalize it when people call you on it is shockingly hollow. Which is, I suspect, why you got modded troll. At least the moderators have some class.

Re:A tragedy...

[Scaba]

A pornographic interest in the number dead isn't compassion - it's a mental illness. And do you have any other choice but to accept it? It happened, it was unavoidable, it was tragic, yet life goes on for the rest of us. If you really want to show compassion, take the next flight to China and help out. Or do something in your own neighborhood to help those suffering there.

Re:A tragedy...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but it'll help him feel better when he looks in the mirror later and realizes that he causes suffering everyday to thousands of people simply because he uses products that are produced on the suffering of many in underpaid slave driven factories.

He needs to yell in order to drown out the sound of his own tears.

As for me... f that noise! Random death and destruction warms the bitter coldness in the void where my heart used to be.
 
I could give a toss less about the deaths of thousands (millions WHEE!) of people. When there are so damn many of us that if a natural disaster wipes out 3 million people and it makes a LESS THAN .05% dent in the world population I can NOT, in good concious shed any tears.
 
Humanity can suck it and if in the process, randomness happens to include me, so be it. Just make it really, REALLY messy...

P.S. - I do care about the people I know, and would want no harm to come to them, but as I said, if randomness wants to include me... fine.

Re:A tragedy...

[KGIII]

I respect your right to a view and to voice it. I don't mind a troll moderation status for that one, it is worth it to have said what I'm certain needed to be said.

Re:A tragedy...

[giorgist]

So why do you care about what I said ? You are conflicting then. Why bother with compassion at any level ?

Dunbars number explains it somewhat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

or a humorous version of the above

http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html

Slashdot-proof?

[Raineer]

I don't know if it's possible for the youtube link to get /.'ed but the shaking starts almost 5 minutes into the video and lasts for about 90 seconds. I have never been in an earthquake and certainly not sure how I'd feel about one that lasted so long.

Re:Slashdot-proof?

[Dreadneck]

I was in the Loma Prieta earthquake that happened during the World Series back in 1989. I was stationed at the Presidio of Monterey and standing on the 2nd floor balcony of my barracks smoking a cigarette when it happened. It was the first and hopefully last earthquake I'll ever experience. It was a frightening and unnerving experience that seemed to last forever. The earthquake in China was almost 10 times more powerful and lasted 6 times longer than the one I went through - it must have been terrifying.

Re:Slashdot-proof?

[joggle]

I was a kid watching that game on TV. I remember seeing things begin to shake, then the signal was lost, then it came back for a bit and then I think there was a minute or more of no signal (just a screen saying they were having technical problems). And then they canceled the game so I was bummed out.

Then the next day I found out how bad the earthquake had been and was sorry for the people living there and the victims but also glad I lived in an area that experienced no earthquakes.

I recently went to Japan and experienced a couple of small earthquakes at night. I slept through the first one but the second one felt like somebody was trying to wake me by shaking me. I literally said out loud "I'm up already" before I realized nobody was shaking me and it was just an earthquake. It was so small that it didn't scare me though, although it was a bit unnerving (it was the first earthquake I ever experienced).

Re:Slashdot-proof?

[rmav]

I come from a rather seismic region of northeastern italy. I experienced quite a few earthquakes. I remember the Friaul earthquake in 1976 - I was a kid back then, but even some 200 km from the epicentre the earth wasdancing quite wildly. We all ran out onto the streets.

My brother was serving mandatory army service and he was stationed close to the epicentre, and he had to help. He told me how miserable people were, but then they started rebuilding their houses even before state aid was paid to them. In comparison, in southern italy there you can still see people living in sheds almost 28 years after the Irpinia earthquake in 1980, because they did not want to help themselves and state aid has been gobbled up by the mafia -- this is a classical example of the differences between north and south italy.

Even a few months ago, as I was visiting my parents, the earth shook a bit. And during my recent stay in Chile, I felt the earth shake a couple of times. Earthquakes are very common, but the big ones make us feel how small we are in comparison to the small planet we live on.

Roberto

Re:Slashdot-proof?

[dintech]

I live the in the UK and we experienced an earth quake near London a while back. It was something pathetic like 2.8 but it made big news. Lots of reporters sounding traumatised while trying to get answers from professionals. The BBC got an American expert out of bed for a phone interview and he more or less laughed. He explaned that there are hundreds of earthquakes every week and they are all at least this strong.

Re:Slashdot-proof?

[Jellybob]

Thanks for the reminder - I live in London, and it was all anyone could talk about all day.

I was kind of pissed that all it managed to do was wake me up. Not in the sense that I knew what was going on, I just woke up, rolled over, and went back to sleep.

But then it's a natural event, and the British are excellent at overreacting to that sort of thing. Just wait for it to snow again, and watch the entire country grind to a halt.

Re:Slashdot-proof?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've lived in the Silicon Valley/CA area for about ten years, and been through a dozen or so earthquakes (relatively little ones). The last one I felt was about a month ago (3r).

The average (in my experience) length of a quake is probably less then 30 seconds. After watching the video, I have to say holy sh!t. At least more then a minute of good shaking. If you haven't gone through one, be assured that thirty seconds is more then enough. I can't imagine how shitty it might be to go through one lasting that long.

Re:Slashdot-proof?

[ceoyoyo]

The video could have used some editing. As fascinating as watching a front desk security camera (in a hostel?) is....

Re:Slashdot-proof?

[HeronBlademaster]

When I was 13 or so I was in my bedroom getting ready for school or something when I felt a tiny little shake, so small it was hard to believe it wasn't my imagination, but I was pretty sure it wasn't... and noone believed me until my dad got home from work and said he heard on the news there had been a small quake.

Nothing big, and likely not worth mentioning except in this context (and maybe not at all)... but it's the only time I've ever felt an earthquake (such as it was).

Supposedly there's going to be a "big one" here in Utah someday. Eventually.

Re:Slashdot-proof?

[mgabrys_sf]

Not sure about the power. Size reports are about the same for the 2. Of course the amount of time that shaking took place is another matter.

Re:Slashdot-proof?

[Dreadneck]

The Loma Prieta quake had a magnitude of 6.9 and the quake in Sichuan, China had a magnitude of 7.9. This means that the Sichuan quake was ten times more powerful than the Loma Prieta quake.

Don't worry: the fish survived

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact, nothing even fell over. This one at least has stuff falling about, and a clipped British voice giving hard facts.

Re:Don't worry: the fish survived

[antdude]

What were we looking for with the goldfish? All I saw was water splashing during the quake. :(

The purpose of slashdot

[crazybit]

is covering how technology and internet is changing the way we used to face those tragedies.

the faster the world knows about it, the faster help can be sent for the victims.

Re:The purpose of slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Screw helping the victims. Imagine the next wave of reality tv "Natural disasters in action! Who will survive!".

Re:The purpose of slashdot

[BadAnalogyGuy]

The government must be amenable to accepting help.

Sometimes the ruling junta isn't interested in help

Re:The purpose of slashdot

[mrbluze]

the faster the world knows about it, the faster help can be sent for the victims. Rather, the faster everyone can just sit there and talk about it.

Re:The purpose of slashdot

[willyhill]

Except that "from the twist-and-shout dept" thing is rather tasteless.

Re:The purpose of slashdot

[Patrik_AKA_RedX]

I think it's more like this:

"Oh, an earthquake in China, poor people. We should send them some he... Oh Britney bought a puppy!"

Re:The purpose of slashdot

[pimpimpim]

Or does the overexposure you just get numbed down more?

Re:The purpose of slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

the faster the world knows about it, the faster help can be sent for the victims. Kind of like in Burma?

Re:The purpose of slashdot

[CrimsonAvenger]

the faster the world knows about it, the faster help can be sent for the victims.

Realistically, no.

Technology has been sufficiently advanced to provide information about natural disasters effectively instantly for about a century. I say "effectively", because it doesn't much matter whether you hear about it 1 minute after it happened, or one day after it happened, if it takes you a minimum of two days to provide any meaningful response.

This quake in China is an example of that - we knew about it within minutes of occurrence. But we won't be able to get any meaningful aid into the area for a couple days. And that won't change in the foreseeable future, unless we keep airplane loads of emergency supplies on +10 all over the world, all the time.

Which won't happen. Even if everyone in the world wanted something like that, as soon as the price tag was seen, they'd be back to talking about Paris Hilton....

Re:The purpose of slashdot

[canozmen]

the faster the world knows about it, the faster help can be sent for the victims.

Realistically, no.

Technology has been sufficiently advanced to provide information about natural disasters effectively instantly for about a century. I say "effectively", because it doesn't much matter whether you hear about it 1 minute after it happened, or one day after it happened, if it takes you a minimum of two days to provide any meaningful response.

I'd say response time matters a lot in some situations. I've seen the aftermath of the '99 quake in Turkey, which was of magnitude 7.4 and happened in the middle of the night around 3 AM. The chance of locating and saving people still alive under the rubble of collapsed buildings drops very rapidly with time (reaching almost zero after 48 hours).

In such cases it's the few experienced crews (including trained sniffer dogs and people with knowledge to plan a dig in rubble without further collapsing it) and some sonic / IR equipment to help locate survivors that needs to be shipped to the disaster zone as soon as possible that will make the difference between life and death. Unfortunately the number of such teams around the world is very low, and the sooner a disaster is heard sooner they can be assembled and flown to site. Supplies can start coming a few days later, but each hour counts when you're trapped under and waiting for help.

"from the twist-and-shout dept."?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems rather tasteless.

Re:"from the twist-and-shout dept."?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems rather tasteless.

So "From the Shake-Rattle-and-Roll Dept." would have been more appropriate?

The real tragedy of the earthquake...

[Bin_jammin]

is that video. Here's a hint, it's called edit out the boring parts, or make note of where the action starts. Cliffs notes on the video are 4:40 or so of nothing happening, 40 seconds or so of people running out of a building, and the last minute and change of a goldfish bowl being sloshed. I can honestly say that if that video were the only exposure I had to a major event like that I'd have to wonder what all the fuss was about.

Re:The real tragedy of the earthquake...

[magicchex]

Agreed. That video was terrible and terribly boring.

Re:The real tragedy of the earthquake...

[MrNaz]

The initial 4:40 is to give you time to find your bottle of Ritalin.

Re:The real tragedy of the earthquake...

[trawg]

Also, why the hell is this filed under Quake (the game) stories?

Re:The real tragedy of the earthquake...

[antifoidulus]

I dunno, the girl certainly wasn't bad looking, although the angle kind of sucked.

Re:The real tragedy of the earthquake...

[zoogies]

Ah, I see that the mods have become quite tasteless.

The real tragedy of this world is that you can make such an insensitive comment and be modded +5 insightful.

Yeah, the video doesn't have much in it. I know how much y'all wanted to see buildings cave and people die. I mean, whoever got a hold of that video, what WERE they thinking, not editing it? It's almost like they had something more pressing at hand; oh wait.

Re:The real tragedy of the earthquake...

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a hint, it's called edit out the boring parts, or make note of where the action starts.

Yeah! Who cares about the fact that at least 10,000 people died. Where's my Bruce Willis driving a car into a helicopter? Or at least random shit blowing up and pointless gunfights. I mean there wasn't even at least one shot of boobies. I want my 7 minutes back! At least on MTV they play pop music in the background while they change the camera angle every half a second so you get a seizure.

Instead all we get is some Asian chick reading a paper for 4 minutes and a fish bowl shaking for 2 minutes. This live stuff sucks! I mean, it was only a 7.8. That's like 2.2 away from 10, LAME!

Re:The real tragedy of the earthquake...

[olof_the_viking]

Perhaps the only reason is to get the related link "Compare prices on Quake" which could be considered a little funny, I guess.

Re:The real tragedy of the earthquake...

[Mishra100]

It's amazing that people can whine about anything. Great post.

Re:The real tragedy of the earthquake...

[jupiterssj4]

Don't know how anyone could have died since the quake didn't even spill any of the gold fish's water

Re:The real tragedy of the earthquake...

[ChrisCampbell47]

Indeed, I just wasted 5 minutes of my life watching a bunch of staffers sitting around some sort of checkout counter. Sure, I could have fast forwarded, but I had breakfast in hand and figured "OK, any second now".

It would be interesting to calculate the lost productivity worldwide due to people watching this video. Even if the "damage" is contained to just people viewing this Slashdot posting (i.e. this video is NOT cross posted anywhere else), that's got to be a huge productivity hit. You could take the Youtube views counter, although this probably is getting (inexplicably) replicated and reposted. Anyway, angels on pinheads, etc.

Re:The real tragedy of the earthquake...

[red star hardkore]

Duh... First under 'Earth', then under 'Quake'...

Re:The real tragedy of the earthquake...

[Bin_jammin]

Actually I believe the point I was trying to make was that the video was needlessly long for the amount of action that it was supposed to contain, coupled with the fact that if I had never seen an earthquake before this video would ill prepare me for it. I'm sorry if you think I'm desensitized to it, and perhaps I am, but the fact that tragedies like this happen in third world countries is beyond the scope of my ability to change. I'm fortunate enough to live in a part of the world where building codes are not only enforced, but actually exist in the first place. I'll leave you to cry about every tragedy in the world that's out of proportion due to economic advantage.

Re:The real tragedy of the earthquake...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, after waiting all that time I thought I was being Rick Rolled version 2.0.

Re:The real tragedy of the earthquake...

[felipekk]

China is considered second world, not third world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:First_second_third_worlds_map.svg

Re:The real tragedy of the earthquake...

[Bin_jammin]

I don't think it invalidates my point though.

Re:The real tragedy of the earthquake...

[felipekk]

Of course not, just saying.

from the twist-and-shout dept.

[Anonymous Coward]

stay classy, /.

With the goldfish video

[gQuigs]

skip to 4:30. Watching people work is so very very very boring.

Re:With the goldfish video

[Vectronic]

Work?... except for what appears to be one customer (?) just before the quake, none of them are working... she's busy cleaning her ears with a napkin, two guys are just blankly staring out the front windows... the manager (or similar I would assume) is just trying to look like his job has a purpose...

Re:With the goldfish video

[should_be_linear]

Watching people work is so very very very boring.
Actually, this site exists for that specific reason.

Re:With the goldfish video

[kalirion]

It gives you time to identify with the characters.

Olympics !

[Taco Cowboy]

If a quake gonna rocks, it gonna rocks.

It is unfortunate for those who perished in this quake, but on the other hand, it is also "lucky" that the quake rocks now.

Imagine what would happened if it rocks during the Olympics?

Imagine stadium collapsing, spectators and athletes buried under the rubbles, a global sport event turns into a global nightmare ...

Imagine that ...

My prayers for those who lost their lives and are injured, or have lost their properties in this quake.

Re:Olympics !

[sydneyfong]

Beijing felt some mild shaking but it wasn't anywhere near the center. In fact, it is almost 1000 miles away.

China is a pretty big country around the size of the USA. Sichuan (the quake center) is in the southwest and Beijing is on the northeastern part of the country.

So if it happened during the Olympics it might have caused some panic but casualties of foreign visitors in Beijing probably be close to zero.

Re:Olympics !

[craagz]

That would definitely deserve to be on /.




www.badarz.net

Extended cut

[peipas]

My god, watching that clip makes me feel like I'm waiting for the girls to show up in a gangbang video.

oh mi gowa

[IrritableBeing]

Godzilla!

Re:oh mi gowa

[Datamonstar]

That's Japan, you insensitive clod.

Re:um not to sound like a dick

[Wyatt Earp]

This is the Planet's way to relieve stress after a bad geological day.

"Mother Nature" has nothing to do with plate tectonics. She is involved in things like Ebola and homosexuality in Orca pods.

hello

[Anonymous Coward]

I have nothing to contribute. Just saying hi. Good night.

P.S. kdawson, people say you've been a bit of a troll lately, and from what I've seen, I agree. But I applaud your use of the "Quake" subject icon: probably the only thing in this thread that will be funny without also being cruel. Good on ya.

Re:hello

[Anonymous Coward]

Never mind. Just saw the "twist-n-shout" thing after some comments pointed it out. So: still a tool after all, and I'm giving credit for the Quake icon to the story submitters.

Re:um not to sound like a dick

[enoz]

Some people think it is the second coming, and apparently Ron Paul is Jesus 2.0 ...

Re:that's actually really terrible

[Taco Cowboy]

Don't you have a heart ? Are you still a human being ?

People are dying and you are still mouthing your political garbage.

Enough !!!!

Awful, awful, awful

[Infonaut]

I always have a tough time getting my mind around the numbers bandied about in these human tragedies, but just imagine if 5,000 people died in the United States from something like this.

The 1989 quake that hit Northern California caused a lot of economic damage and freaked the hell out of people. It took years for the areas hit to fully recover from it. That incident killed 67 people.

I really do hope that the numbers turn out to be lower than expected. Major suckage.

Re:Awful, awful, awful

[Splab]

The numbers coming out are pretty accurate. Last news broadcast said around 20.000 - both from officials and outside estimates.

Re:Awful, awful, awful

[zoogies]

The most heart-tugging line from an article I've read on this is that of a man and woman walking away from rubble, the man sheltering the woman as she cries, "My child is dead! dead!"

Unfortunately, earthquakes cannot be prevented. I hope that in the future these areas - particularly ones so prone to earthquakes in the first place - are able to respond better.

Re:Awful, awful, awful

[sydneyfong]

I'm not too optimistic. In fact I'm pretty sure the numbers will continue to climb as the situation stabilizes a bit and the true extent of the damage could be assessed. A earthquake of similar magnitude in China killed at least 250 thousand. It'd be a "blessing" if the casualties stays in the tens of thousands :-(

Re:Awful, awful, awful

[sponga]

Actually there are some researchers in California working on a way to prevent or at least minimize the earthquakes damage.

Basically it is done by injecting a mud or some type of lubricant deep into the ground to allow areas that are under a lot of stress to relieve the pressure slowly instead of the big burst they have where plates slip with eachother. To do this though it would have to be on a lot larger scale spread out so we will not have big earthquakes but little a little 5.0, well little to us Californians.

Excuse my non-scientific terms but I saw a video of them doing it awhile ago and some testing, just recalling off of memory so maybe somebody can follow up.

I have worked some general contracting in my life and it really does not surprise me that there was so much damage over there with the lax rules on construction and building safety, although it is improving it is just the way it is when they are trying to advance the living conditions of their people but cutting some corners to save money.
You could say hey if the Chinese had built a properly and well structured High School than those poor 900 kids would not be trapped underneath the collapsed roof, standards are not as high in China though.

Re:Awful, awful, awful

[Anonymous Coward]

more likely the numbers will be much higher then reported.

Read the article before you say it's not Slashy!

[Fluffeh]

Look, while I am happy to argue when a crappy story is posted here, but isn't a story about the earthquake in China, that's old news (sorta kinda internet time dilation sort of thing), this story is about the fact that the initial articles ABOUT this came via the likes of Twitter rather than Foxnews.

Geez guys, put an extra loop of tape around the glasses where they got broken, chill out a little, and enjoy Slashdot for what it is! (That includes the articles)

it is a stuff that matters

[unity100]

because it is a disaster that has been instantly covered visually by new generation gadgetry and posted up to net. behind a repressive regime that censors everything, to boot.

LIES!!!

[CodeMonkey22]

"Science magazine speculates that deaths from this event could exceed the 240,000 killed in the Tangshan quake in 1976, though the estimated death toll is below 10,000 at this writing"

ACTUALLY... nowhere in the articles at Science Magazine does it say they think it could exceed 240,000 deaths.

It says 10,000 so far. Period.

Talk about FUD!

Re:LIES!!!

[zoogies]

OOOOKAYYY...let's see here.

First: wow, only 10,000. -roll- what an obviously insubstantial number.

Second:

http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2008/512/1

By Richard A. Kerr
ScienceNOW Daily News
12 May 2008
Researchers fear that the magnitude-7.9 earthquake that struck near the major city of Chengdu today will easily be China's biggest killer since 1976's Tangshan quake, conservatively estimated to have taken 250,000 lives. "I would think there's going to be horrific loss of life in this one," says seismologist Lucile Jones of the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) office in Pasadena, California. The all-too-familiar combination of millions of people living by a major fault rupture in quake-vulnerable structures makes for an inevitably bad outcome, she says.

One of us is missing something here. That's the same link posted to in the story, yes?

Talk about RTFA?

Re:LIES!!!

[Vectronic]

Great, now that you've highlighted it, I can simply say "read the bold part again"...

250,000 was the "estimated" (past tense) of the earthquake in 1976. It does not say wether this earthqaue will match, surpass, or even be a tenth of that...

10,000 seems to be the consensus so far, although I would imagine that may climb to about 12,000 or so dependng on what rural areas were hit, and what buildings housing however many people still need to be investigated.

Re:LIES!!!

[zoogies]

Aha! You're correct. I read too fast. I'll have some crow now.

Re:LIES!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Not exactly reading too fast... I think your comment is justified, as the implication is certainly there.
It says "Researchers fear it could exceed 250,000"

Its not a big leap to say fear == speculate

Of course neither fear nor speculate are based on real facts... just a guess on their part.

Re:LIES!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

How about you just stop posting instead?

Thanks.

Re:LIES!!!

[zoogies]

Ah, I think you've read too fast too.

It says "Researchers fear it could be the biggest SINCE Tangshan, which had a death toll of 250,000."

Re:LIES!!!

[Jnfields]

I agree...Zoogies you have managed to write some really stupid stuff today.

Re:um not to sound like a dick

[Taco Cowboy]

The Chinese have almost 1/3 of the world's population. This is for sure nature's attempt to control population in asia. I wouldn't be surprised and really wouldn't mind if that number reaches a few more 0's at the end (atleast 2 or 3 more 0'

Just what type of motherfuckers do we have in /. ???

People are dying and they are saying shits like that.

C'mon !!!

How would you feel if your family got hit by an accident and people standing around and say ... it's just a way of population control.

Please think before you speak, motherfucking assholes !!!!!

Re:report is 850 dead and injured

[Anonymous Coward]

850, that's about as many that died in chinese prisons on the same day Or a fraction of the number that are aborted / allowed to die in "oprhanages" as a result of the one child policy.

Death toll

[willyhill]

I remember the reports of "a few hundred" fatalities when the story about the tsunami of 2005 broke. I think this is going to get worse before it gets better.

Fortunately the Chinese government seems to be forthcoming as to what's happening over there, in contrast to past disasters. And I wonder what this will do to the olympics?

Re:um not to sound like a dick

[arbiter1]

well, if you consider how much china has tried to under mind other country's over last 1-2 years. counterfeit cisco hardware putting lead in to toy's on purpose for export attempted to hack gov computers of other country (and gettin busted for it)

Re:Heart ?

[willyhill]

This guy is all over this article. Check his posting history, he's one of those Chinese nationalist fanboys that like to deny the Tibet thing and so on. Very obvious.

Re:Heart ?

[StrategicIrony]

Hey, guess what.

We just discovered that humans tend toward violence and oppression.

Wow.

Maybe someone should write about this.

Then we can study it.... maybe we could call it....

history.

And then we might learn from it.

But that would be too much work.

sigh.

Re:that's actually really terrible

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Post about people being heartless
2. Post about people being heartless
3. Post about people being heartless
4. OMFG WE GET IT ALREADY. IF YOU ARE SERIOUS STOP KARMA WHORING AND START POSTING ANONYMOUSLY.

Re:Heart ?

[unity100]

thanks for the heads up, ill take him to my foe list so i wont misjudge.

allrigh

[unity100]

and the point here is ?

Re:report is 850 dead and injured

[Anonymous Coward]

Free TIBET !!
I'll take it!
Hey China, i think i have something you might want...

Re:um not to sound like a dick

[zoogies]

Taco Cowboy, I know you're getting a lot of negative responses, but I agree with you and appreciate that *someone* has some sense on their head around here.

Unfortunately, for most, it's all fun and games until it's their family and friends involved.

And some people will do anything in the hopes of getting modded 'funny.' Pathetic, really...

Many aftershocks

[jonfr]

As an man interested in earthquakes, I have been watching the aftershock pattern over there and I think that there might be a small chance (or large, depending on things) of an aftershock that is Mw7.0 at least. But it also appears that the stress in the crust in this area has moved east and west of the current epicenter.

The reason for the current massive damage due to this earthquake is because it did happen at only 10 km depth. If it had happened at 40 or 80 km depth, there would have been less damage as less energy from the earthquake would have reached the surface.

There are going to be many, many aftershocks in this area for the next two months or more. Most of them from mb4.5 up to Mw6.5. Creating more damage to already badly damaged houses in the nearby area.

Good list of aftershocks can be seen here, along with information on the main quake.

http://www.emsc-csem.org/index.php?page=current&sub=list

Re:Many aftershocks

[Rufus211]

Wow, getting hit by a 7.9 sucks. An immediate aftershock of 6.0 sucks even more. Having an additional 32 (as of this post) aftershocks in the 4.5-5.5ish range?! That's just insane, I can't imagine the trouble rescue workers are having from them.

list and map from USGS.

Re:Many aftershocks

[bitrex]

It looks like the largest aftershock so far just hit at 08:54 UTC, a 5.9.

Re:Many aftershocks

[bitrex]

Correction - 7:07 UTC, I was looking at the wrong table.

Re:Many aftershocks

[curmudgeous]

I'm not a geologist, but I just looked at the satellite photo of this region via Google Earth and I'll be danged if that doesn't look like one honking big caldera (way bigger than Yellowstone). Would someone who IS a geologist care to comment?

Re:Many aftershocks

[powerlord]

It sure looks like it could be, and I'll admit that I'm not a Geologist, but I would expect there to be more geothermal activity if it were a dormant "Super Volcano".

Of course it could also be an impact crater, or just a mountain chain. :)

Compare

[jandersen]

An earthquake hits China, tens or hundreds of thousands of people may have been killed. Response: idiotic jokes, complaints about this not being 'tech', ignorant nonsense about politics.

Planes hit a couple of tall buildings in New York, a few thousand people are killed. Response: wild cries of pain and anger, unbridled hatred against anything from the Middle East, America starts two wars of revenge.

Is there something about the proportions here that isn't quite right? I mean, after the 9/11 attack sympathy poured from all over the world, even Yasser Arafat expressed his outrage against the attackers. But the response of the Americans to a major disaster in China is one ridicule and cold, heartless arrogance hiding behind and thin excuse of 'but they are evil communists'. Is that really the best you guys can manage? You know, sometimes you really make it an uphill battle to love and respect America.

Re:Compare

[zoogies]

Thanks for putting this so clearly and succinctly. I cannot agree with you more.

The things people do to act cool...

Re:Compare

[Thedeviluno]

Lets be fair. Slashdot is an international Icon of intellectual individuals. I dont live in the USA but there is a big difference between an act of God(s) and murder.

Re:Compare

[pembo13]

And then Americans wonder why the "dam terrorists" hate them. Earthquake in China today is several times more important than Clinton vs. Obama.

Re:Compare

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to consider two things:

1) The 9/11 attacks were entirely malicious, whereas an earthquake is an accident of nature. An earthquake sucks, but it happens every now and then. Some douchebags hijacking planes and crashing them into tall populated buildings doesn't fit into most peoples' view of "usual happenings".

2) You're sampling the US's reaction based on a couple of comments made by trolls within the first 10 minutes that this post has been up. Give moderation a chance.

Re:Compare

[xWeston]

I couldn't agree more...

Earthquakes aren't a decidable event by any means. However, terrorist attacks are.

Re:Compare

[FoolsGold]

Very good observation, thanks for that.

Re:Compare

[Anonymous Coward]

This may be the stupidest thing I've read yet on slashdot. For a starters an earthquake is a natural disaster so it's hard to blame anyone for it. Beyond that, wow, something bad happens and people on the internet make jokes about it? Hey, welcome to the internet. Obviously this means that America is a cold and heartless nation because random people on slashdot, who are obviously entirely american, made jokes about a disaster.

Hey, newsflash, humour is a coping mechanism!

Re:Compare

[sydneyfong]

Ugh. To make it fair it isn't America or the west who are to blame. I could relate how Americans could be indifferent to disasters on the other side of the world, but I've gotten worse comments from some of my fellow Chinese who are devotedly anti-communist. Things like "hah! Shows that the CCP has lost the mandate of heaven!", "this is god's punishment for the evil communists", "oh it doesn't matter the communists were planning to kill them anyway", "they'll be reporting zero casualties with the leadership of our great party"...

So yeah, while Americans have earned their reputation for stupidity I think you guys have at least passed in this sympathy test. The only appalling comments from westerners seem to be from people who are idiots (which, I excuse, since every country has their own idiots), but the comments above were made by supposedly educated people. Sick.

Re:Compare

[suck_burners_rice]

There is a slight difference between the events of September 11, 2001 and an earthquake in China, no matter how many people were killed in either event. Just in case you can't recognize what the difference might be, here it is:

SEPTEMBER 11 WAS DELIBERATELY CAUSED BY EVIL PEOPLE WHO PLANNED AND EXECUTED AN EVIL PLAN WHICH KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE, DELIBERATELY. An earthquake, on the other hand, is a natural disaster that humans have no control over. Nobody decided to have an earthquake. But a bunch of really evil pieces of garbage like the 19 cockroaches from Saudi Arabia and the other cockroaches that supported them like that archcockroach Osama Bin Laden DID decide to have September 11. That's the tiny difference. Even if September 11 killed less people than an earthquake, the events of that day alone do completely justify the total and utter destruction of all terrorist organizations around the world, even if no terrorist organization ever participated in any other terrorist attack, and we all know that these organizations DID participate in hundreds of such attacks around the world.

They decided to bomb the WTC, twice. They decided to blow up the aircraft carriers. They decided to hijack and/or blow up airliners on several occasions in the past few decades. They decided to blow up embassies around the world. They decided to burn hundreds of cars in France. They decided to blow up the hotels in Egypt. They decided to blow up the trains in Spain. They decided to blow up the theater in Russia. They decided to blow up the subways in London. They decided to hijack Air France flight 139. They decided to fire thousands upon thousands of rockets into communities throughout Israel, and to blow up nightclubs, pizza parlors, and hotels in the same country. They decided to open fire into a crowd at Los Angeles International Airport. They decided to blow up bombs at marketplaces throughout Iraq. They decided to blow up a playground in Thailand. And since I'm getting tired of typing, let's just sum it up by saying that they decided to perform all kinds of terrorist attacks in Dagestan, India, Lebanon, Somalia, Pakistan, Jordan, Chechnya, Sudan, Yemen, Indonesia, Philippines, Algeria, Mauritania, Turkey, Egypt, and who the heck knows how many other countries.

BUT NOBODY EVER DECIDED TO HAVE AN EARTHQUAKE, TORNADO, ETC.

Re:Compare

[zoogies]

Mmhm, humor IS a coping mechanism.

But, I think it's pretty clear that the funny guys here aren't doing it to cope, yes? So it's a comment that falls quite on deaf ears.

Re:Compare

[azakem]

You know, slashdot is not really a representative sample of the US population... I wouldn't draw conclusions about the response of Americans generally based on comments posted to slashdot, particularly after 12 AM EST.

Re:Compare

[Anonymous Coward]

Since 9/11 there have been plenty of other incidents in each of which tens of thousands have died. However, the main difference is of course that tsunamis and earthquakes aren't deliberate actions by someone to kill others. Consequently it's hard to have such moronic hate towards anyone as we saw after 9/11. Arguably, this and other incidents have shown how hypocritical people are if they pretend that each human life is worth the same. It sometimes annoys me that I don't know whether people acknowledge that they are pretending or if they really have convinced themselves of their goodness in viewing all as equals. I consider it simply as good manners to pretend but - just like manners - it's behaviour that you've been taught to have and are aware of that. And in case some have difficulties in acknowledging their hypocritical conviction, be honest with yourself and answer a question such as "what is a greater loss to the world - the loss of 100 well-educated westerners of 100 illiterate people in a third world country that have never known anything other than poverty?".

Oh, and what a captcha I got: "positive"

Re:Compare

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right, we should really be consistent and bomb the shit out of Mother Earth. That'll teach her to fuck with us again in the future.

Re:Compare

[Anonymous Coward]

Only a very small portion of comments showed a piece of sympathy.

On a tragedy like that, most of you guys instead threw out human rights and politics as usual, because 'it is China'.

Now I want to ask a question, do you guys REALLY care about anything about China? No you don't. You don't care about lives suffering/dying there because of the earthquake, and you DON'T really care about human right there either regardlessly. You just want a subject to laugh at, to talk big about. That's all.

Yes I am Chinese, and I do not even want to bother create an account to post.

And I donated. (BTW, I donated for 9/11 too. At least I have sympathy.)

Re:Compare

[Brownstar]

Please do.

Here's the link to the first 9/11 story on Slashdot:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?threshold=-1&mode=nested&commentsort=0&op=Change&sid=21541

Be sure to browse at -1.

It's chock full of idiotic jokes, complaints about this not being 'tech', ignorant nonsense about politics.

I guess not that much has changed.

Re:Compare

[quanminoan]

I don't know about anyone else, but before I opened this page I expected most of the comments to be a little 'careless'. This has nothing to do with the nature of the event but the nature of the internet. Do yourself a favor and read through the Youtube comments of any popular 9/11 video.

Of all the comments here that I've read so far your comment worries me the most. Even if this is not what you expected, you're judging an entire nation on a few comments you read on this site? I'm positive a nationwide poll (not on the internet) would show above 99% of Americans have heartfelt sympathy for the Chinese from this event. The minority that don't, for some reason, are also the most vocal and ruin it for the rest of us. Myself, I wish there were something I could do rather than have to sit and watch Youtube videos of the event.

Please give what you wrote a second thought.

Re:Compare

[tjstork]

You know, sometimes you really make it an uphill battle to love and respect America.

I still hate 90% everything from the middle east, for 9/11. But that's only because I knew people that were killed there.

With that said, most people who are capable are probably more like I was, really just stunned at the size of the Chinese disaster. This is way bigger than Katrina or 9/11 combined.

I feel bad for the Chinese, I really do. I keep wondering what if, an earthquake or some natural disaster happened to me and right now. This disaster just makes me want to be closer to my young son and wife, and enjoy them a little bit. Life is so fragile.

And I might actually go buy something made in China.

I'll be damned.

Re:Compare

[Lucid_Loki]

jandersen is correct and succinct.

However you don't think Yasser was just trying to save his own arse? I remember watching Yasser making those statements and thinking 'he's shitscared the US will go after Palestine in retaliation.' Bet he was glad when they chose the Taliban instead.

Now is not the time to be discussing the various human rights records of major powers. A discussion of that might involve a debate between China and the US' accusations on each other's human rights abuses as is detailed before the UN General Assembly each year. China's on the US as a direct rebuttal on the US' yearly publishing of claims of human rights abuses in over 190 countries while doing nothing to address its own.

I think the point here is the speed at which so much information was distributed about this 'quake from people close to the source. The only analogy I would make with Myanmar is that we saw similar amounts of video and first hand accounts surface after the Junta's militant crackdown on the peaceful Buddhist monks protest last year (before they severed the internet connections of course). It's becoming increasingly hard for nation states to control what information the international community has access to. It's becoming increasingly easy for individuals to video, write and distribute first hand accounts of disasters such as this which takes a lot of burden off the state bureaucracy and immediately involves more people in the international community.

Consider that some posters are complaining that this is old news whereas twenty years ago we'd all be grateful to have a newspaper report the following day that came down from a state news agency to an international media carrier and finally onto our local rag. The fact that an hour after this thing happened anyone with a half way decent internet connection could see what was happening and start planning, learning, commenting or espousing political rhetoric is why there is a discussion about this on Slashdot.

The Quake logo is still the best part of this thread though.

Re:Compare

[Anonymous Coward]

Really?

Re:Compare

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with your second point but your first point.

Let's look at the media coverage of the London or Spanish train bombings or the Bali bombings in the nightclubs (twice) all 4 terrorist events against western targets and how much coverage or world sympathy was there?

Re:Compare

[R2.0]

"You know, sometimes you really make it an uphill battle to love and respect America."

If it's the "love and respect" of such open minded, wide thinking folk such as yourself, I'll pass. America is not Slashdot, and Slashdot is not America. The fact that you are not American, and you are posting your scolding ON SLASHDOT, is an irony that speaks volumes about your own attitudes.

Keep your "love and respect" - from such as yourself, I don't want it.

Re:Compare

[kalirion]

Lets be fair. Slashdot is an international Icon of intellectual individuals. I dont live in the USA but there is a big difference between an act of God(s) and murder.

If there really is a God, and this really is His/Her/Its act, then it most definitely is (mass) murder.

Re:Compare

[porcupine8]

Wow, it's really interesting to read some of the serious posts and realize how much misinformation was swarming around in the minutes/hours after the attack - explosions at the white house, 11 planes hijacked (probably due to one of the flight #s being #11), Algeria claiming responsibility - no, it was the Palestinians! (With a bonus extremely protracted "Fuck the palestinians/good on the palestinians" flame war attached.)

Re:Compare

[hassanchop]

But, I think it's pretty clear that the funny guys here aren't doing it to cope, yes?

Why does what you think matter? It's not a coping mechanism for YOU, it's for them. Additionally, you are making an assumption with no evidence. You know what they say about assumptions, they make you look like a fucking idiot.

Re:Compare

[zoogies]

Ahh, well, forgive me for being so inconsiderate of the need for people who have no personal connection to the tragedy to cope in such a manner. It's clearly affecting them *so* strongly, and I must be wrong to have assumed otherwise.

Re:Compare

[Anonymous Coward]

An earthquake isn't an accident of nature, it's a malicious attack by God. Obviously God is a terrorist and as part of the Global War on Terror we need to kill God before he can commit another unspeakable act against our world.

Re:Compare

[jvkjvk]

Is there something about the proportions here that isn't quite right? Yes, it's your skewed sense of reality. If you don't think there were idiotic jokes, complaints about 9/11 not being 'tech', ignorant nonsense about politics, etc., you either were not paying attention or you have blinders on. You appear to be selecting your facts based on your own biases rather than reality.

This is a really cool experiment, because what was written does not change (until we really do have Big Brother!). I'm betting I could match you idiotic joke for idiotic joke, complaint for complaint, ignorant nonsense for ignorant nonsense and still have some to spare.

If you really think

response of the Americans to a major disaster in China is one ridicule and cold, heartless arrogance based on your current reading of Slashdot about the earthquake and fail to come to the same conclusion based on the same pattern in the 9/11 stories (which really did have the same pattern!) then it can only be said that your filters do not mesh with reality.

What cannot be said is that your interpretation is correct. Sorry.

Re:Compare

[Darby]

SEPTEMBER 11 WAS DELIBERATELY CAUSED BY EVIL PEOPLE WHO PLANNED AND EXECUTED AN EVIL PLAN WHICH KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE, DELIBERATELY.

Ahhh, but did the Chinese do nothing to incite the earthquake? Of course not, so your nonsense comparison is meaningless. If you don't think the US richly *earned* 9/11 then you are a deeply delusional ignorant fool.

Quit throwing around meaningless words like "evil" when you're too dishonest and cowardly to look at your own actions and that of your country. The actions of the US leave people few other options to get some sort of justice since you're too much of a weak willed cowardly piece of shit to hold your own fucking government accountable. That is your job and you're a complete fucking failure at it. So other people have been forced by the torture and murder of their families by the US and their brutal thug buddies to take matters into their own hands.

Quit whining like a little bitch. You had your opportunity to do the right thing and you blew it. You chose not to act like a decent human being and you're getting exactly what you deserve.

Now grow up, quit crying and eat your just deserts, you fucking no personal responsibility taking little pussy.

Re:Compare

[jo7hs2]

Frankly, I find your use of this tragedy to make your tired and overused attack on the people and government of the United States of America disgusting. I feel for the people of whatever nation you live in, because they have to be your neighbors. May God have mercy on their souls. A handful of postings on Slashdot.org do not represent the will and emotions of a nation. The attention of mainstream media does not represent the will and emotions of a nation. I can assure you that the vast majority of Americans feel for the Chinese, and would support any help we could provide. I feel sorry for you.

Re:Compare

[Mab_Mass]

Although I agree in general with what you're saying, I think you have downplayed the severity of the earthquake. It is not simply something that "happens every now and then." Earthquakes are massive, destructive, horrible events.

I am American, and I am embarrassed at the behavior of many Americans. The grandparent post had a very good point about the heavy bias inherent in this thread. Again and again, we see the same theme perpetuated in American media - if Americans are killed, even in small numbers, it is a very big deal, way out of proportion to the numbers. I personally was very upset with the coverage of the tsunami a few years back when all the reports featured something akin to "thousands killed, including a few Americans," as if the few Americans were what mattered.

Re:Compare

[Anonymous Coward]

Planes hit a couple of tall buildings in New York, a few thousand people are killed. Response: wild cries of pain and anger, unbridled hatred against anything from the Middle East, America starts two wars of revenge.

As well as idiotic jokes, complaints about this not being 'tech', ignorant nonsense about politics.

There has never been any moment in history, where a joke wasn't appropriate. There you are, standing at the edge of the mass grave the nazis made you dig. You hear people loading a machine gun behind you. Now is the time for your comedic farewell, because you're not getting another chance. Ever.

Re:Compare

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that really the best you guys can manage? You know, sometimes you really make it an uphill battle to love and respect America.

As your type would probably be all too eager to point out in any other setting, Slashdot isn't only visited by Americans.

But, hey, nice try there with the anti-Americanism. Is that really the best you can manage?

Re:Compare

[joeman3429]

I'm a supposedly educated person. I also think those gifs with stars of david crashing into the twin towers are funny because firstly, they imply the ridiculous notion that Jews were responsible for 9/11 with flying stars of david, and secondly they make fun of and point out the ridiculous nature of stereotypes in general. It's rather unoffensive when presented in such a farcical manner, if you have an open mind and you yourself aren't a racial profiler.

This applies to other funny gifs with stereo types that apply to whatever ethnic, racial, and social groups I may or may not belong to. I just chose that one because it popped into my head.

Re:Compare

[Mab_Mass]

I feel embarrassed to be human.

Seriously, people suck.

Sometimes, making a joke to deal with a horrific situation is needed, but those comments (and some of the posts in this discussion) just disappoint me.

Re:Compare

[Anonymous Coward]

you're sampling the value of the Chinese people's life based on Chinese government's action, same story.

life is equal no matter what.

Re:Compare

[fireboy1919]

Always look on the bright side of death,
Just before you draw your terminal breath.

Life's a piece of (stuff)
When you look at it.
Life's a laugh and death's a joke it's true.
You'll see it's all a show.
Keep 'em laughing as you go.
Just remember that the last laugh is on you.
And... That from a song sung from the POV of someone experiencing one of the worst possible deaths imaginable. A joke is always needed. The worse it is, the more you need a joke. Humor isn't a side effect. It's a survival mechanism.

So bring on the dead baby jokes, the afterlife jokes, and, if possible, jokes about undead creatures. I want death to seem a lot funnier right now.

Re:um not to sound like a dick

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a noodle-scratcher for you: When a friend's close relative dies, do you behave somberly all the time or just around your friend? Do you weep more when a close relative dies, or when a distant relative dies? Put simply, do you react to all human death in the same way or does the intensity of your reaction depend on the strength of the bond you shared with the deceased? Be honest, and get off your moral high-ground.

Re:Well, look at it this way...

[zoogies]

Looks like *someone*'s been indoctrinated, and I'll give you a hint, he's a heartless loser...

Question?

[Thedeviluno]

If the goldfish managed to survive how did that quake kill 10,000 people?

Re:Question?

[zoogies]

The building didn't appear to suffer any damage in the video, and it looks like the people just got off with a scare - though it's hard to tell.

Earthquakes cover large areas. Had it been in a more epicentric region, with collapsing buildings, well, you wouldn't have a video.

Re:Question?

[Thedeviluno]

I was thinking maybe 10,000 window washers fell. Tragic but the footage really does not convey the disaster.

Re:Question?

[TheLink]

Well also depends on how many coal miners were affected by the quake.

I think I'd rather be a window washer falling than a coal miner stuck underground because of the quake.

Re:Question?

[istartedi]

This was probably not too close to the epicenter. Near the epicenter, the bowl would probably be knocked off the table. Soil type and wave dynamics are big factors too.

Whooshes don't extinguish flames

[Mathinker]

That whooshes don't extinguish flames.

Re:um not to sound like a dick

[zoogies]

Moral high ground?

Excuse me, I actually do have friends in Sichuan Province.

To answer your question: no, you do not react to all human death the same way, and yes, the intensity depends on the strength of the bond. You're actually correct.

Now, I suggest you read the parent, which suggests that this is Mother Nature's way of population control, and tell me again that I'm taking an unreasonable moral high ground.

On the plus side

[Rik Sweeney]

China now has a reasonable excuse not to send any aid to Burma.

Re:On the plus side

[zoogies]

Ohhh, well, I'm glad that this tragedy hasn't made a downer out of someone who's obviously not affected by it in any way.

And I'm sure that the countless who've lost friends and family to this will glaze over with warm-hearted fuzziness at these comforting words.

Hey, maybe you'll even get modded funny.

Re:On the plus side

[pandrijeczko]

I think you need to spend more time reading the news media rather than writing one-liners that only you think are funny.

Burma is refusing to accept foreign aid workers into its country - it has nothing to do with other countries not giving aid.

And out of interest, how much have you personally donated to Burma?

Re:On the plus side

[kcelery]

"I started the jokes, .... "

Bee Gees

war

[Anonymous Coward]

I _AM_ outraged by this terrorist attack from racist forces. Makes me feel good about the war on Mother Nature. Only a matter of time before we, with bulldozers, find the forest she's hide in.

Re:Heart ?

[TapeCutter]

"did chinese have a heart when beating down tibet protesters just 2-3 weeks ago, and locking them in to prisons for life ?"

Stop judging a nation's people by it's government's actions and the world will make a lot more sense.

Re:um not to sound like a dick

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm going to have to agree with Dick here. I'd rather God picked his victims quasi-randomly than put us humans in a situation where we have to choose who lives or die. You can't just keep churning out babies (not that the Chinese can do this thanks to population controls...) and expect to not run out of food and resources- or in this case, multiply the death count from a disaster thanks to dense population densities.

And don't act like you've never met a dick before on the Internet. His extra zero's comment was unnecessary.

Read the awful racist comments from Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

It's incredible how much hatred there is here in Canada.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/05/12/quake-china.html#postc

Re:report is 850 dead and injured

[SpaceWanderer]

Free America!

Re:Well, look at it this way...

[zoogies]

Okay, I've been modded flamebait; fair enough, I can't argue that. Maybe I can make my point a little more moderately.

OP, it's like saying, oh, well, 1300 Americans died as a result of Hurricane Katrina. That's [n] less arrogant American pigs, who deserved it anyway.

Hey, I live in America, and I do not agree with - and completely resent - such a statement. I'm sure others would similarly be outraged if comments like that were made after Hurricane Katrina hit. But that that is what you are saying, with respect to China.

Re:Everything's going to shit...

[BluBrick]

someone fix the world please, thx.

What, while you sit on your fat arse and watch? Besides, what's to fix that could have stopped this?

Earthquakes happen. They sometimes happen in populous places and sometimes without much warning. (Mind you, the goldfish in the video seemed a touch agitated about two seconds before the people did)

I'm willing to be proven wrong, but I'm confident they are not caused by global warming, pollution, terrorism, war, drugs, the war on drugs, human rights abuses, GM crops, communism, fascism, totalitarianism (other), religious intolerance, litigious *AA's, closed source software, corrupt cops, or failing to tip your waiter!

Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against fixing the world - I just don't see how a "fixed" world is relevant to this tragedy.

Meh

[Anonymous Coward]

An earthquake hits China, tens or hundreds of thousands of people may have been killed. Response: idiotic jokes, complaints about this not being 'tech', ignorant nonsense about politics. Given that this was also the entire US response to New Orleans, I can't really feel all that surprised about it.

I was surprised that the US is willing to do more for the Burmese than they were their own citizens; although it came as no surprise that no one in the Bush administration seems to have realized the irony.

so sowwy

[IrritableBeing]

Earthquake!

Re:Heart ?

[zoogies]

I think...that you are a little misinformed of what exactly went down in Tibet.

Let's take race and country out of the equation, and make no mistake, I'm not standing up for the Chinese government, and I have no special knowledge or comments to make about who really has the best claim to what land, etc. But anyways:

Mass organized rioters cause mayhem in the streets. Burning shops - mind you, not the special shops marked with white flags, those were 'saved' - killing people. A disgusting lack of respect for life.

Put that in America, and you (better) have martial law and a huge crackdown.

Put that in China, and you have an oppressive regime stamping out political freedoms.

It's almost comical...were it not so sad.

Re:um not to sound like a dick

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry to hear about your friends and hope they escape unscathed. I doubt many in China will get much rest in the coming few days.

Given the OP's vileness, I concede the point, though I remain wary of moral crusaders (something which you do not appear to be).

goldfish

[kiwilake]

so what's the big deal about the goldfish? i was expecting it to fall out or somehow do something very exciting. all i can see is that it wobbled around a bit.

Re:goldfish

[religious freak]

I dunno, I guess it's because it's the only thing going on in the vid?

Somewhat interestingly, the fish is mellow yellow until the shaking starts (so much for THAT theory), but once things start happening, it goes nuts faster than the humans do (you can catch it if you watch closely).

Other than that, it's a fish.

Re:Heart ?

[zoogies]

I'm going to have to agree that his methods aren't exactly going to win him popularity points, and it's overdone and unnecessary on what should be a more civil forum.

But, as I've been 'all over' this article too, I feel like I should respond to your statement.

I've known people you can apply "Chinese nationalist fanboy" or "government apologist" label to. It's frightening. I don't think you quite realize the difference between a true "fanboy", as you say, and someone who just knows more (for instance, regarding Tibet). Our media here in the West is full of bias. But that's a discussion for another time.

But in my case, I feel that, knowing friends who have family in the region, I have a different perspective on this than would most ./er's, and it's something that (I hope) is insightful. A reminder that though we may personally be disconnected to these natural disasters (as would be the case for me for the tsunami of 2005 or the recent cyclone in Myanmar), not all of us are. And the comments that are made do come off as ignorant, insensitive, and hurtful.

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ftw.

China fails

Re:Heart ?

[Ptur]

Well, if that is your logic of thinking, I can tell you that the US must certainly have deserved 9/11.

Now, does this make you feel better? Now go and leave this planet please...

Re:Heart ?

[iNaya]

Yeah, but when they agree with the governments actions...

Re:um not to sound like a dick

[iNaya]

You do realise the world population is over 6.6 billion, and the population of the PRC is 1.3 billion. That gives them 1/5 of the world's population. Not 1/3.

Re:um not to sound like a dick

[zoogies]

Thank you.

Yeah, a lot of times emotions just get the better of us. I can certainly understand why anyone would react very negatively to Taco's comments.

Gee Thanks /.

[coaxial]

10 hours, later and only now /. is mentioning it.

Personally, I find the the Quake 3 symbol a nice touch. Nice to see another section is being misused beyond enlightenment.

Re:Heart ?

[unity100]

in china, youll find that majority of the public agrees with its government's actions. china is not sweden, usa, uk or france. up to last 10 years they have been living by mao's brainwashing book, and situation is not too much changed now.

You got the province and city swapped...

[ljgshkg]

The article says it's "Sichuan city of Chengdu". The fact is that "Sichuan" is the province and "Chengdu" is the provincal capital. Luckily, the centre of earthquake is just very close to ChengDu (a hundred something kilometres from it) but not right there. Otherwise the no. of death/hurt will definitely sky rocket.

Re:You got the province and city swapped...

[WindBourne]

No, they are not swapped. In english, when refering to something, it is ok to put it in that format:
American city of Chicago.
Chicago, City of America.
I did read that Chengdu belonged to Sichuan (i.e. I knew that it was a county or province|state just based on that).

Re:You got the province and city swapped...

[kcelery]

The epicenter is about 65miles north-west of Chengdu city.

Re:Heart ?

[unity100]

Mass organized rioters cause mayhem in the streets. Burning shops - mind you, not the special shops marked with white flags, those were 'saved' - killing people. A disgusting lack of respect for life. and says who ? chinese government ?

Actually, it can be useful in many ways

[WindBourne]

For example, it may actually propel ppl to action in other areas to prepare for an earthquake. Another is that it may encourage sending of aid (most likely money for victim since this is one of the great nations). It may also spur others in China to come to the region and help out. Keep in mind that the gov is saying that it was not that bad, but pix and data show otherwise. Heck, somebody may even a friend (hopefully alive). It really is useful.

Re:Heart ?

[sydneyfong]

Um, maybe they don't. But that doesn't mean you guys making smartass remarks about China's politics here have a heart either.

It's OK if you don't have a heart though, but just don't let me see you stand on that moral high ground anymore.

Re:Heart ?

[zoogies]

If you'd like, I can look for those sources in the morning, or maybe someone else can corroborate me (I need to sleep now). It's out there - on youtube, even on some western media sources.

But, are you trying to say that this is not what happened?

That shops were not destroyed, that only the Tibetan shops with white flags hung up were spared?

You'd be wrong; if you can get a source other than preconceived notions, I'd like to see it.

karmic arsequake for tibet genocide

[flamelord]

maybe this was a karmic arsequake?? does you thinks???

Ouch

[WindBourne]

First, that was NOT the entire's US response to Katrina. It was the feds, not citizen's. Many of us sent in money and did help how we could. Home were opened, jobs created, etc. But your characterizations of the bush response is actually kind of wicked. I had not thought about it in that context, but you are right.

Re:Ouch

[Dachannien]

First, that was NOT the entire's US response to Katrina. It was the feds, not citizen's. Don't forget the rousing response from the State of Louisiana as well as the City of New Orleans. Or, for that matter, their... deftness... in preparing for the situation.

Re:Ouch

[corbettw]

To be fair to the people working in government who did help, the delays were mostly the fault of the horse judge Bush put in charge of FEMA. Once he was removed from the situation and had his duties transferred to a Coast Guard Admiral everything got working properly. So blame and his crony for the delay, but don't say no one did anything.

Re:Heart ?

[sydneyfong]

You'd be accurate if you said "30 years" instead of "10 years".

The public agrees with its government's actions because they generally do. Is it so hard to accept the fact that sometimes these governments actually work for the people? Is it so hard to accept the possibility that Chinese leaders actually have a sense of responsibility and morality, and actually care about the people, instead of the vote-buying enterprise that dominates "democratic" politics?

It's ironic that in "democratic" countries governments with less than like 40% approval rating can still rule the country... and then instead of electing a better government these people bitch about "brainwashing" of other countries when an "evil" authoritarian government does a better job.

I'm not saying democracy is worse than authoritarian government... but people like you are essentially saying "you're evil!!! you can't be better than us!! it must be a trick!!". Pathetic.

Mod parent up

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I've been observing those numbers from the USGS. Agreed that
these are insane.

A couple of observations: The USGS page only lists M4.0+ quakes.

Late last year, we had a M5.6 quake in the Alum Rock area.
In California, this is just enough to get your attention.
One of the Sichuan aftershocks in the last hour just beat this quake.

There's a picture where the rescue workers are digging out a kid.
They gave him a helment while they're working on freeing his legs.

Re:Mod parent up

[xx01dk]

I live roughly 5 miles from where the Alum Rock quake struck, and it was about 30 seconds of moderate shaking. My wife and I braced ourselves in the doorway to our hall and watched as our 30 gallon fish tank in the living room swayed back and forth; maybe a quart of water sloshed out.

I cannot even begin to contemplate how awful a 7.8 quake that lasts more than two minutes would be. My thoughts and best wishes go out to the survivors and to the friends and families of those who were lost.

Re:Heart ?

[dintech]

I agree with you in the main but I also hate how the GPs have made almost immediately switched context to Tibet. Dumbasses.

A small noteâ¦

[W1sdOm_tOOth]

This news does cover a country, which is quite controversial for some points of views⦠I am sure; this topic can stimulate a lot of âoecreativeâ minds, with a lot of âoeuniqueâ ideas and jokes⦠However, I beg you, use your wisdom, and not the sharpness of your sense of humor. Which I am sure, is very strongly present here in this community⦠This news is about a great tragedy⦠A lot of people are DEAD. And let me point out the cause: it is our Mother Nature! Not a political situation⦠Not an economical point of view⦠And terrorists have nothing to do with it⦠It is our Mother Nature! Think about it before posting your opinions! BTW, I will owe one night of drinks, to anyone who can convince our Mother Nature to keep European continent little quite for a coming summer⦠You know⦠keep it normal⦠Not too rainy, not too dry⦠Is this too much to ask??? Thing is, there is a girl coming over to my house and I do not want any unforeseen complications⦠Since I am the oldest in the family⦠I left Mother Nature quite early⦠You know⦠All those opinions and views⦠I wanted to be independent⦠having my owned place⦠A basement with a fastest Internet connection and a universal tin-foil roof in case of unforeseen attack coming from my evil neighbors working for $$$⦠Or from aliens⦠Who knows? Anyway, I have lost contact with my Mother Nature⦠Didnâ(TM)t talk to her in a quite a while⦠Nevertheless, I hope she remembers me!!!! Please mention the girl and me⦠I think she will be happy to hear that⦠And hopefully, there will be no surprises and Iâ(TM)ll finally score!!!! Cheers in advance!!

Oh cool

[WindBourne]

First, you assume that all these AC's are Americans, even though this is being posted in the middle of the night here? ( I am up because I have code to finish and test before the AM and am taking a break). Far more likely that a fair number of these ppl are coming from east of America, though no doubt some of them are Americans.
Second, America started 1 war to stop it from happening again (they were harboring and helping AQ). It was not revenge. The other was an invasion/occupation for many other reason (and sadly, most of us doubt it had anything to do with 911).
Third, comparing an act of war to a disaster has to be the ultimate red herrings. Ppl died, but these are totally different items.
My suggestion is that you get off your soapbox and quite pointing the finger when you are not so certain that is American doing the knocking. As it is, the Americans that I can spot, are like myself, expressing feelings of sympathies for the families and friends while doing low key discussions.

Re:Heart ?

[unity100]

its not a smartass remark. the realities didnt go away either. what has happened in tibet, has happened, and majority of chinese people have agreed with their government, as they always do.

furthermore, if i didnt have a heart, there is absolutely nothing barring or deterring anyone from announcing it, so just dont let me see you making such dud remarks about hearts again.

Re:Heart ?

[unity100]

sydney, you are not talking about a benevolent partriarchate of long white bearded old wisemen watching over a sheep of carebear flock. you are talking about a government that forcibly tried to 'shape' its community by atrocities, discrmination, manipulation, brainwashing, repression and even trying to blatantly rewrite history. please, be realist. this same government is the one which is employing hundreds of thousands of people for just censorship purposes, implanting informants in universities, internet cafes and jailing people because they put a few no-no words in their blogs. please, be pragmatic.

Actually, it does have an impact

[WindBourne]

I was at ground zero for HIV (worked at CDC in 1981) and have lost a cousin to it. And I watch with remote curiosity WRT avian flu (far more damaging if it ever comes to be). These items DO have an impact on the birth rate. The simple fact is that man is resilient, but what would happen if these did not happen?

In fact, we may find out shortly exactly how much impact nature/disasters have on man. A part of the Avian flu is that a new vaccine attempt is being done at CDC. It will look at different coats. Most importantly, it is considered a vaccine for ALL flu's. If it works, then flu (number 1 or 2 killer of man) will be stopped. So, the question is, what will happen to the earth population? China has theirs roughly under control. EU is pretty much zero, but immigration moves them up to positive. The same is true of America (we are zero on birth growth, but immigration esp. illegal is keeping us in positive growth).

Re:Heart ?

[unity100]

please do that then. and make sure that the resources wont be chinese government, or chinese government regulated press.

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

lol. You're starting out with a hypothetical situation, and then call it "history?"

How's that for a little bit of fantasy?

wha

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this posted in games? And have the Quake game icon? Pretty sick sense of humor, /.

Re:Heart ?

[giorgist]

You guys have been the reason possibly more than 300000 people were killed in Iraq
Tortured a myriad or people on bullshit grounds
Let alone promote conflict to further your ends
and you judge others !??! You must be the biggest cancer this planet has ever seen.

G

Re:Heart ?

[unity100]

theres nothing hypotethical about it. nazi party manifesto and program explicitly states that everyone who is not a german or nordic had to be made slaves under germans. japanese have killed around 300.000 people in nanking. women were killed by using bamboo sticks in a fashion i wouldnt like to mention here. japanese threw down bombs of engineered flu viruses into china for 'biowarfare' around 6 years or more, causing deaths of maybe 10 m or more chinese. these have happened. theres nothing fantasy about it.

get a clue. do some research.

Re:Everything's going to shit...

[Anonymous Coward]

I just don't see how a "fixed" world is relevant to this tragedy. Well, anything that is properly fixed to its surroundings should not have any room to wiggle like the earth did, does it?

Re:Heart ?

[moonbender]

Way to go, justifying genocide!

Re:um not to sound like a dick

[Anonymous Coward]

You'll love the comments posted on Canadian broadcast.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/05/12/quake-china.html#postc

Does instant news footage make a difference?

[Anonymous Coward]

Let us suppose that the great empire of China, with all its myriads of inhabitants, was suddenly swallowed up by an earthquake, and let us consider how a man of humanity in Europe, who had no sort of connexion with that part of the world, would be affected upon receiving intelligence of this dreadful calamity. He would, I imagine, first of all, express very strongly his sorrow for the misfortune of that unhappy people, he would make many melancholy reflections upon the precariousness of human life, and the vanity of all the labours of man, which could thus be annihilated in a moment. He would too, perhaps, if he was a man of speculation, enter into many reasonings concerning the effects which this disaster might produce upon the commerce of Europe, and the trade and business of the world in general. And when all this fine philosophy was over, when all these humane sentiments had been once fairly expressed, he would pursue his business or his pleasure, take his repose or his diversion, with the same ease and tranquillity, as if no such accident had happened. The most frivolous disaster which could befal himself would occasion a more real disturbance. If he was to lose his little finger to-morrow, he would not sleep to-night; but, provided he never saw them, he will snore with the most profound security over the ruin of a hundred millions of his brethren, and the destruction of that immense multitude seems plainly an object less interesting to him, than this paltry misfortune of his own. To prevent, therefore, this paltry misfortune to himself, would a man of humanity be willing to sacrifice the lives of a hundred millions of his brethren, provided he had never seen them? Human nature startles with horror at the thought, and the world, in its greatest depravity and corruption, never produced such a villain as could be capable of entertaining it. But what makes this difference? When our passive feelings are almost always so sordid and so selfish, how comes it that our active principles should often be so generous and so noble? When we are always so much more deeply affected by whatever concerns ourselves, than by whatever concerns other men; what is it which prompts the generous, upon all occasions, and the mean upon many, to sacrifice their own interests to the greater interests of others? It is not the soft power of humanity, it is not that feeble spark of benevolence which Nature has lighted up in the human heart, that is thus capable of counteracting the strongest impulses of self-love. It is a stronger power, a more forcible motive, which exerts itself upon such occasions. It is reason, principle, conscience, the inhabitant of the breast, the man within, the great judge and arbiter of our conduct. It is he who, whenever we are about to act so as to affect the happiness of others, calls to us, with a voice capable of astonishing the most presumptuous of our passions, that we are but one of the multitude, in no respect better than any other in it; and that when we prefer ourselves so shamefully and so blindly to others, we become the proper objects of resentment, abhorrence, and execration. It is from him only that we learn the real littleness of ourselves, and of whatever relates to ourselves, and the natural misrepresentations of self-love can be corrected only by the eye of this impartial spectator. It is he who shows us the propriety of generosity and the deformity of injustice; the propriety of resigning the greatest interests of our own, for the yet greater interests of others, and the deformity of doing the smallest injury to another, in order to obtain the greatest benefit to ourselves. It is not the love of our neighbour, it is not the love of mankind, which upon many occasions prompts us to the practice of those divine virtues. It is a stronger love, a more powerful affection, which generally takes place upon such occasions; the love of what is honourable and noble, of the grandeur, and dignity, and superiority of our own characters.

Adam Smith, The Theory of Moral Sentiments

Re:um not to sound like a dick

[Taco Cowboy]

I've been on /. for quite a number of years (see my number and you know) and I can tell you that lately there are just too many "those kinds" of animal here.

I ain't a Chinese or a Burmese, but as a human being, I can at least _feel_ the pain of those who perished, or injured, or have lost everything in the quake and the typhoon, man.

How can people be so cruel , so heartless , so damn cold blooded ...

/. just ain't the /. that we used to have anymore.

It's really, really sad.

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, because obviously they were the exact same people...

Re:Heart ?

[sydneyfong]

Well you're right (in the post which I'm reply to). But it doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I think the apparent support would be a mix of "brainwashing" and genuine support. You make it sound like all Chinese are 100% brainwashed drones, a myth that I was trying to dispel.

Yes there is censorship, yes there is state propaganda, yes there are even blind, zealous "patriots", but the lack of democratic institutions doesn't mean that this particular government is "in fact" hated by the people, and it doesn't mean that all Chinese are too indoctrinated that they can't utilize their brains.

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

+1 Too True

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Those of one evil can hardly preach to those of another evil -- look first to your own house, my brother.

cruel comments, tsk tsk

[guorbatschow]

isnt that typical? chinese live on the other side of the world. the US (i take that most slashdotters are from the US) couldnt care less.

this is exactly why the burmese government is afraid to accept foreign help after their catastrophe. while humanitarian organizations just want to help, the governments behind those organizations want to judge. if you really want to help, brush aside political issues for a while.

and i really get the impression that slashdot mostly consists of attention whores who just want to top eachother with cruel jokes and sadistic comments.

Re:cruel comments, tsk tsk

[idlemind]

What exactly should we be doing and what exactly are you doing? And are you concluding that the US as a whole does not care because of comments on Slashdot?

This is a leisure site. Did you expect the comments to be a collaborative discussion drafting an action plan to aid those affected in China.

Re:um not to sound like a dick

[sydneyfong]

Unless you have close friends or relatives who are affected, I'd rather not have you "feel" the pains of the victims.

Not that I am for trivializing the disaster, quite the opposite. When you, probably sitting in the comfort of your room, professing to "feel" for the victims, you're actually trivializing the pain of the real victims and their friends and families, some who've probably lost their homes or means of living.

Don't be a fool

[Sigg3.net]

Hypnotoad takes care of his own
* clap clap clap clap ...*

Re:Heart ?

[Ex-MislTech]

The "whites" were Europeans that came to the Americas,
primarily Spanish, French, British, Dutch, etc etc.

They did things like hand out small pox blankets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox_blanket#Biological_warfare

The Native Americans were many different tribes, and
they really did not have a large unification til around the
time of Custer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custer#Battle_of_the_Little_Bighorn

Some Native Americans tried to flee to canada after fighting
and were pursued all the way to Canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nez_Perce#Chief_Joseph.27s_surrender

Some fought brutal guerilla style war for many years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geronimo

The skull and bones society stole his bones back in the day

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geronimo#Theft_of_remains

So that is who the "whites" are.

The whites are the ppl who signed many treaties, and did not
honor most of them.

Their were some instances when Native Americans who had family
members killed went on rampages as well thou.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_treaties#U.S._Native_American_treaties

There are still many tribes, several names known by very few.

My tribe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_Potawatomi_Nation

I credit my grandfather with my dim view of so called society.

He was one of the most brilliant men I ever personally knew.

My tour of duty in the US military working on RADAR showed
me that the killing of local indigenous ppl by profiteers
has been justified by said profiteers for a very long time.

It continues to this day...

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, but you just left out the part where China FUCKING INVADED TIBET and has been migrating Chinese there in order to dilute the Tibetan population. But hey, that would completely destroy your analogy, and what importance can a mere invasion/occupation have?

Re:Heart ?

[Ex-MislTech]

Stop judging a nation's people by it's government's actions and the world will make a lot more sense.

I keep seeing this come up, and I keep asking is not the
government made of people?

Do they not have children ? Do they not read history ?

Actions speak louder than words, and the history of the world's
actions are 10's of millions killed.

People need to question the government and the ones that run it,
and what is coming in Iran and Syria is a good example.

When World War 3 starts, it is people that pushed it through.

Re:Heart ?

[dbcad7]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3578941.ece

Come on.. do your blah blah blah free Tibet speech, you know you want to.. obviously these tourists are brainwashed and Chinese government approved.

Re:Heart ?

[Ex-MislTech]

You guys have been the reason possibly more than 300000 people were killed in Iraq

The number is closer to a million since it all began, but
to be honest Saddam and his sons had a fair bit of blood on their
hands as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

Most Shia Iraqi's which make up over 50% of the population
wanted Saddam and his son's removed from power.

The reasons and excuses were lies of course, but maybe someday
they will have their own country once all the oil is gone.

The coming regional war over all the oil in the region
will make the Iraq war look like a walk in the park though.

Avian Flu Vaccine For H5N1 Mutation Human to Human

[Lucid_Loki]

Good luck on producing a vaccine to combat a hypothetical mutation which hasn't eventuated yet...

I realise this wasn't the point of your post but I think it needed to be said.

Re:report is 850 dead and injured

[Ex-MislTech]

Yes, please free America as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jekyll_Island#The_Jekyll_Island_Club

Re:Heart ?

[unity100]

any opportunity for using a brain is prevented through state censorship and repression.

Re:Heart ?

[unity100]

did it ever occur to you that, chinese government might have been using its secret service members to do agitation in order to get a valid excuse for cracking down on tibet ? huh ? did you ever study methods of communist governments, and histories of prominent communist governments ? you'd be surprised.

Re:Heart ?

[dalutong]

I grew up in China and am insulted by how people have such simplistic concepts of China and of the Chinese people. There are ignorant people everywhere. The only difference is that in China there are more people who are willing to see their government as something distinct from themselves; as something that doesn't necessarily have legitimacy. The greatest trick ever played on the American people is convincing them that the U.S. government is the way it is because they want it to be that way. (Read Democracy in America -- it's been true for 200 years.)

Is America the country where I'd rather be a citizen? Yes. Does America have flaws galore? Absolutely. But understand that the Chinese people are smart. They understand the flaws of their government. But they also understand that they have had unbelievable growth over the past 30 years, and that this ascendancy is going to cause some problems.

The problems that China faces are the same as those in America: people care more about whether they can buy the next cool thing. So long as they can, and the government keeps the economy growing so they can, they don't care what the government does. The same way we don't care what abuses our government commits so long as we get our cheap oil, food, clothes, etc. The only difference is that we have a different government system, so the abuses are done with (slightly) more caution.

Re:Avian Flu Vaccine For H5N1 Mutation Human to Hu

[WindBourne]

re-read the item and then google for it. Flu has a number of proteins. Normally, the vaccines target the unstable proteins. Now, CDC is trying to target one or two of the stable proteins. If they are successful, it will mean that ALL flu's are blocked (of course, that does not address the issues of an immune storm). And yes, the avian flu has the same protein because they are STABLE.

When you should be embarrased

[tjstork]

If you are looking at images of a Chinese man trying to pull his wife out of the rubble, or a mother searching for her baby, and all you can think of is what political system they have, then you need to get a life.

You ought to be embarrassed to think that way.

I don't think Chinese rescuers are thinking about chairman mao any more than US rescuers think about George Washington. I think they are more likely concerned with digging out as many wives, husbands and children so that husbands, wives and parents can have their loved ones back.

I don't see these images of destruction and desperate hoping a story of politics. Instead, I see incredible suffering, and I feel for them. I imagine how I would feel if it were my wife, or my son, smashed up inside my crushed house, if that earthquake happened to me. Thank god it didn't.

Re:When you should be embarrased

[Anonymous Coward]

I completely agree. Amongst the other casualties there are two schools worth of children and teachers buried under the rubble.

Some people around here need to grow a fucking heart.

Re:When you should be embarrased

[joeman3429]

Maybe they have a heart but just aren't showing it? You're drawing a conclusion without evidence. Humor and sympathy aren't mutually exclusive.

Re:Heart ?

[Simon Brooke]

OK, so this is a flamefest and I'll pitch in

Chinese people - Han Chinese - get taught in their schools that Tibet has been part of China from way back. This may be true or it may not, I don't know. But during the late nineteenth century and up until 1958, it was not effectively true; Tibet was effectively autonomous. Furthermore, the fact that somewhere used to be 'part of' some state is no argument that it should continue to be. Half of France used to be part of England. What is now the Republic of Ireland used to be part of the United Kingdom. But the majority of the people of Ireland didn't want to be part of the United Kingdom, and so they're not now. That's how it goes.

Scotland is currently part of the United Kingdom, and nationalists - like me - want it to be independent. So we're campaigning for a referendum on independence, and sooner or later we'll get one. And if we're outvoted, we'll lose it; that's how it goes.

Nor does the Chinese argument that the theocratic government of pre-1958 Tibet was a 'bad' government wash. Yes, it wasn't democratic. Yes, it was essentially feudal. But the current Chinese administration isn't exactly in a place to throw stones.

However, where it gets tricky is this: there's a distinction between people who have been indigenous to a place for generations, and new immigrants. There are now a lot of people in Tibet who aren't indigenous to Tibet (same's true here in Scotland). It isn't their fault that they're there. And they have, it seems to me, as much right to have a say in the future administration of the place as everyone else there. So if Tibet could have a referendum on independence (which I believe they have a right to), the 'indigenous' people might not win because they might be outvoted by new immigrants.

I feel a lot of sympathy for the ethnic Tibetans, who are, I believe, having a raw deal. But I don't think that excuses the sort of race riots we saw earlier this year, where Han Chinese immigrants were attacked just because of their race.

Re:Heart ?

[McGiraf]

"how much heart did incas have when they were engaging in ritual slaughter of slaves and captives even before aztecs ?"

A thousand?

That was an easy one the answer was just before the question!

Re:that's actually really terrible

[Anonymous Coward]

People die all the time. I suggest you get over it.

Re:Heart ?

[Simon Brooke]

You guys have been the reason possibly more than 300000 people were killed in Iraq The number is closer to a million since it all began, but to be honest Saddam and his sons had a fair bit of blood on their hands as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

It's worth pointing out that Saddam came to power as largely an American puppet, and as late as nineteen ninety the US govenrnment (and the delightful Mr Rumsfeldt) were still selling him chemical weapons. Furthermore, of course, the first person to use chemical weapons on Iraqi civilians was Bomber Harris, the well known British war criminal (err, sorry, I mistyped 'hero').

So I think you can trace Western responsibility for the troubles of Iraq back far further than the last ten years.

Re:Heart ?

[BakaHoushi]

I understand your point, and your message is undeniably true in the fact that the west can hardly claim to be free of such tactics, but on the other hand the morality of a government's actions is independent of the actions of other governments. Even if we (The US, Europe, et al) were throwing new born babies into furnaces to power our torture devices (a practice I'm sure most moral philosophers will agree is along the south side of ethical) it doesn't change the fact that China arrests political activists... at least when they're not outright assassinated.

Not to approach Godwin levels of Internet Cliches, but remember in 1984, the people LOVE Big Brother. It's easy to get a people to love their country/government when you weed out all the ones who don't. In this way, I view China as one of the worst offenders to the human race. Though I will readily point out that things aren't all roses over here.

Take a little trip with me.

[tetrahedrassface]

For all the cold hearted folks carping about population control and karmic justice think about this.

Imagine having your legs pinned under 18 tons of concrete. You are laying in the dark under the rubble of a multi-story apartment complex. Next to you is the body of one of your children, below you is your other child, who is suffering yet refuses to die. As the rest of the world is in a warm bed or on a comfortable couch or sitting here being crass, drinking coffee and taking this in as some sort of sick Romanesque spectator sport.

Yet here you are under the rubble watching your last child suffer away and you are wishing and hoping that if you die maybe a higher power will be placated and spare your child. The pain isn't so bad anymore, except for the cries coming from under you in the rubble. The cries of people who had dreams that will likely never be realized. The cries of pain and anguish. You hope for some relief before the dark comes, but only rain water dripping down on you. The darkness comes the cries continue. The pain continues. You watch your child draw his last breath.

Those of you without sympathy for the suffering are the ones that need to be lined up and shot on sight.

Just 2 cents from a red blooded American!

Remember that scenario is happening now....

Re:Take a little trip with me.

[Detritus]

What about us green-blooded Americans? You aren't some dirty elementalist, are you?

Anyone who says that his fellow citizens should be lined up and shot, should be lined up and shot.

Re:Take a little trip with me.

[tetrahedrassface]

Fine. Off to the gallows with ya. j/k ;)

Re:Take a little trip with me.

[Tom]

Next to you is the body of one of your children, below you is your other child, who is suffering yet refuses to die. This is China. They've had a "one child" policy for decades, your scenario is unlikely. Yeah, human misery and all that. But beyond all the soft and jesus-loves-you-all bullshit you can deny, but not undo the facts. One fact is that 10,000 people simply don't matter, globally. We are over 6.5 billion. 10,000 is about 0.00015% of us.

And yes, I realize that 10,000 is still 10,000 times me alone.

Re:Take a little trip with me.

[kalirion]

6.5 billion people don't matter cosmically. Our entire galaxy could collapse into a black hole and the Universe would go on ticking like nothing ever happened.

Re:Take a little trip with me.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you! It seems there are not many human being here!

Re:Take a little trip with me.

[Anonymous Coward]

"You watch your child draw his last breath."

There's light down there?!

Re:Take a little trip with me.

[greyhueofdoubt]

I've been in similarly horrifying situations and I actually reflected on this while I was enduring them. I'd think, "right now my friends are probably playing some war game on their computer while I am here actually getting shot at."

You know how it made me feel? It made me feel happy for them that they were OK. It didn't change anything about how I felt about my own situation at all. No matter what terrible situations befall me, there will be people on the other side of the world who will carry on unconcerned and will continue making stupid jokes, watching cartoons, having sex, and just generally enjoying life.

Why should my misfortunes cause pain for others?

I have sympathy for the victims of this disaster, but I don't have the visceral, gut reaction that I would have if my mother was killed in front of me. I don't see how you can conflate the two very different reactions.

You want everyone to shed tears over every bad thing that happens, ever? People will just stop watching the news.

-b

Re:Take a little trip with me.

[Duradin]

Those of you without sympathy for the suffering are the ones that need to be lined up and shot on sight. Wow, way to be sympathetic to people that have had friends, loved ones and relatives killed by firing squads.

Re:Take a little trip with me.

[Anonymous Coward]

My colleague mentioned the one child policy before, but she said it was something like this:

1 child if your first born is male
2 children if your first born is female

If this is true, then the scenario would be plausible.

Re:Take a little trip with me.

[joeman3429]

I already did stop :/

I agree with your sentiment, although I've never been shot at myself, so I don't know if my opinion matters. I certainly wouldn't want my family and friends to worry about me though. It seems like that would be a little selfish.

Re:Take a little trip with me.

[Anonymous Coward]

Joe Capone and his thugs should have been lined up and shot. We could also argue that the world would be a far, far better place if George W. Bush had been shot as a teenager.

Yasser's outrage....

[tjstork]

even Yasser Arafat expressed his outrage against the attackers.

Arafat's outrage come after CNN ran footage of Palestinians spontaneously demonstrating in the streets with cheers for the attackers. There was a massive and popular celebration in the middle east for 9/11. Regardless of what their leaders said, or even Arafat giving blood to help, all I could think was, wow, after all the USA did, particularly under Clinton, to help Muslims. The USA saved the Muslims in the Balkans, twice, from certain genocide. The USA worked tirelessly to create an independent palestinian state. Clinton did more than any world leader ever did to help Muslims and all we got, at the end, was 9/11 and massive street celebrations across the middle east, repleat with burning American flags.

Yeah, I hate them for that.

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

How dare you talk about America that way?

Wait, why are you all looking at me in that tone of voice?

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop judging a nation's people by it's government's actions and the world will make a lot more sense.

From the USA: Today we are all Chinese

[tjstork]

Just an American expressing condolences to the Chinese people for their terrible tragedy. I have a wife and son myself and all I can think of is those family members under the rubble and those waiting to dig out.

China is a pretty powerful country, but if there's anything China needs, I hope they ask just ask. Americans would be honored to help.

Re:From the USA: Today we are all Chinese

[ucblockhead]

Being a native Californian, living in the Bay Area, having had friends who had their house damaged in the Northridge quake in '94, it is real easy to say "that could have been me".

Re:From the USA: Today we are all Chinese

[tjstork]

Being a native Californian, living in the Bay Area, having had friends who had their house damaged in the Northridge quake in '94, it is real easy to say "that could have been me".

I hear you. My little brother, in the Coast Guard, was stationed in New Orleans during Katrina.

All these people pointing fingers, saying that if China had this or that sort of government, blah blah, things would be different or they got what they deserved. No, they didn't deserve that. What did someone I never even met in China do to have his children crushed to death?

Not everything is about politics. This is about seeing a bunch of people who are dirt poor, trying to make a better living for themselves, suddenly lose everything, including the people that they love. It's just a terrible tragedy.

Re:From the USA: Today we are all Chinese

[ucblockhead]

People forget that the whole issue with an authoritarian regime is that the vast bulk of the population *doesn't* have any control over what happens.

Re:Heart ?

[m.ducharme]

Keeping in mind of course that Han Chinese were shipped there specifically to dilute and eventually overwhelm the native Nepalese population.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your position, but there is an important moral question lurking under the surface of things here, namely, how far can a culture/race/ethnicity go to prevent their own genocide, before they too become what they're fighting against?

It's hard to imagine but there it is.

[east coast]

This is a terrible incident and it's hard to imagine that up to a quarter of a million can be dead in an incident that had no real target. It gives real scope to the size of the tragedy. Much like the tsunami a couple of years ago, it shows how little we have mastered.

But hopefully these people will work it out. They don't have much choice but to put their best foot forward. It's something that most of us will probably never be able to truely get our heads around in terms of the number dead and the devastation that it carries with it.

Official Chinese Government Take on Assistance.

[tetrahedrassface]

China will ``welcome help and assistance from the international community,'' Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang told a regular news briefing in Beijing today.

Re:Official Chinese Government Take on Assistance.

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting AC because the karma hit will surely be brutal, but here we go:

It saddens me to see large-scale tragedy like this anywhere in the world, and I'm sure that China will "welcome help and assistance from the international community", but if I provide any help and assistance at all, it'll be to Tibet.

China's foreign ministry can reap what they sow.

Just one question....

[pandrijeczko]

As a long term Slashdotter, I don't recall too many "Quake" logos or humorous comments being thrown about after 9/11 - yet more than three times as many people have died in the Chinese earthquake and out comes all the sick humour.

As a born and bred Brit, I was in the States (on holiday in Florida) when 9/11 happened. I was appalled by the events, I comforted American people who were overwhelmed with grief at what happened and will never forget where I was that day.

Likewise, I was appalled when my own countrymen died in terrorist bombings in London and when hundreds of thousands died during the "Boxing Day" tsunami of 2004. And now the Tibet cyclone & Chinese earthquake.

Call me old fashioned but when people die unexpectedly, it's a tragedy - whether they are white, black, whatever skin colour.

So GROW UP everyone! Show a little respect and if Slashdot considers it right to cover stories of human tragedy, then it should do so with dignity and WITHOUT the stupid "Quake" logo on the title! I'm sure the likes of John Carmack and John Romero won't be too impressed at such a cruel usage of that logo...

Re:Just one question....

[kalirion]

As a long term Slashdotter, I don't recall too many "Quake" logos or humorous comments being thrown about after 9/11

Not sure about comments, but it definitely was not a Quake? Is there a game called "Ramming planes into buildings of people you don't like"?

Re:Just one question....

[augnober]

Slashdot is too immature and uninformed to deal with China. I cringe every time China is mentioned here.

Re:Just one question....

[greyhueofdoubt]

>>And now the Tibet cyclone & Chinese earthquake.

Your moral outrage comes off sounding tawdry when you don't even know what country the major cyclone hit.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iy-MfhLN9Q7MwtQ1VlrvexLjr2dAD90KQ9083

I'm sorry, but I get up in arms any time people talk down to me as though they are vested with a moral authority that I somehow lack. If you have _ever_ passed by a beggar without handing him some money, than you have committed a far greater misdeed than joking about a situation that you are completely powerless to do anything about. So get off your high horse and get on with being human, strengths and weaknesses both, just like the rest of us.

-b, who has not posted any jokes about this disaster but reserves the philosophical right to do so.

Seriously

[bob_the_carrot]

China has an earthquake. Australia spends millions of tax payers dollars in aid. When was the last time China offered Australia aid? And fuck america.

Re:Seriously

[pandrijeczko]

You know that nice cheap computer you're reading Slashdot on? I bet more than a few bits of it were made in China.

Or that flatsceen TV you have. Or your DVD player?

No, I'm not suggesting that we only send aid to countries that bring benefit to our own economies but likewise don't sit there thousands of miles away from it and throw out such inane comments.

People have died so do something. Get on a plane and help. Or donate some money. Or even just shut the hell up if you can't even find any sympathy.

Re:Seriously

[illore]

When has Australia had a Natural Disaster on a scale that has required Aid. Biggest loss of life from a Natural diaster in Australia is 438 people from the heatwaves generated by the black friday bushfires (71 dead) in 1939 Largest amount of damage done by a Natural Disaster is on xmas day 1974 by Cyclone Tracy (30000 people evacutated, 64 dead) even that was well within Australia capabilities to deal with. 1 earthquake in China...over 10000 people dead If you can help another country with a natural disaster that they are unable to deal with by themselves or they ask for help, you should help for the simple reason that you Can and are Able to do so. Funny how you can make friends by doing that. Also, one day, it could be your turn to have a natural disaster take a bite outta your ass.

Re:Heart ?

[stewbacca]

Stop judging a nation's people by it's government's actions and the world will make a lot more sense. Funny, that rule doesn't seem to apply when bitching about Americans on slashdot...

Re:Heart ?

[sydneyfong]

And... remember 1984 is a fictional work? It's a cautionary tale, an exaggerated one at that.

It's much harder in practice.

I didn't even point to abuses of western countries. The argument isn't needed, and it's not the point. Basically your thinking is: "I live in a place where the media is 'free'. But still we're somewhat brainwashed. China is worse!!! So the people must be totally brainwashed." Which is what exactly I'm trying to refute. I don't care whether America or wherever plays dirty tricks on the media, I'm saying that despite the state propaganda in China the people aren't totally drones because they have this device called a "brain" which is actually capable of individual thinking.

PS: On a second reading of your comment... you don't even seem to have read what I wrote in the GP post. :-/

Re:Heart ?

[edwinolson]

Rant detected. Feel better?

Throughout history, those humans with technological advantages (in every part of the world) have oppressed and brutalized other humans. It's horrible, and I'm not an apologist. But it's a human thing, not a European white thing. Humans are generally fairly deplorable creatures, but there's no rational basis supporting the notion that the evils of the world arise solely from white people.

The book Guns, Germs and Steel presents some interesting ideas on this subject. For a variety of botanical, geographical, and other non-human reasons, the middle east and europe became technological power houses and were consequently able to exercise that human habit of being evil. That technological advantage made the carnage more horrific in scale, but the same pattern was continuously repeated in other cultures.

They said that new dam in China will make quakes m

[Joe The Dragon]

They said that new dam in China will make quakes more likely will we more any time soon?

Re:Heart ?

[sydneyfong]

The Chinese Communists are not Gods.
And not all the people are as gullible as you are.

Building regulations?

[EvilToiletPaper]

This should make the Chinese government rethink building safety regulations and add tougher inspection rules before approving any high rises.
I used to live in India where quakes are very commonplace in the northern part of the country. Rampant corruption in the decades past allowed builders to get away with cheap materials and building more floors than their alloted quota. After a lot of collapsed buildings in quakes, the government had to throw in stricter regulations and even knocked down a few illegal high-rises.
It's very sad that China had to go through the same to learn their lesson.

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well you're right (in the post which I'm reply to). But it doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I think the apparent support would be a mix of "brainwashing" and genuine support. You make it sound like all Americans are 100% brainwashed drones, a myth that I was trying to dispel.

Yes there is censorship, yes there is state propaganda, yes there are even blind, zealous "patriots", but the lack of democratic institutions doesn't mean that this particular government is "in fact" hated by the people, and it doesn't mean that all Americans are too indoctrinated that they can't utilize their brains.

HHHMMMMM!.. That works also. I think you could just about use that statement with almost any country. Nice....

Get off your high horse

[hassanchop]

if you think that now people are suffering and now feel the need to start making these dumb remarks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallows_humour

It's called "Gallows humor", it's a very appropriate, very common coping mechanism, and you'll notice no one is calling you names for dealing with this tragedy in your own way. Yet you seem to think you have a monopoly on the correct way to deal with tragedy.

It's normal. You being a douchebag about it is not.

Re:Get off your high horse

[zoogies]

From your link:

Gallows humor is a type of humor that arises from stressful, traumatic or life-threatening situations such as accidents, wartime events, natural disasters; often in circumstances where death is perceived as impending and unavoidable.

...ahhh, yes, for those posters, death is just impending! Man...sitting at their computers, they're just going to collapse dead any second now. No wonder they have little choice but to respond with 'gallows humor', as you say.

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Having spoken with a group of visiting professors form central china and their "Party Sponsors" / supervisors I would like to point out even though they might not be drones they don't feel free to expresses their discontent. You can express a world of hate in a gesture but when you can't shout it from rooftops most people can't notice. There are more people who hate their government living in China than there are people in living in the United States. But most of them smile and nod because the people who are most vocal often work for the government. And odd as it might sound things are getting better so violent protest doomed to fail seems like a bad idea to most people.

Re:Heart ?

[TapeCutter]

Best post I have triggered with a one liner for many years. The monkeysphere sort of sums it all up in a humorous way.

Re:um not to sound like a dick

[PiSkyHi]

Hear Hear.

It frustrates me to read of people accusing others of insensitivity just for making jokes. The joke alone is just not enough information about the teller to know if they believe the joke as justified.

Its usually a good test, to see if one can keep both the tragedy and the comedy in balance. Anyone who thinks that jokes somehow discredit the tragedy are actually the ones who fail the test and can not really be trusted to remain in calm in tragic circumstances.

I personally don't want anyone hysterical and irrational anywhere near me when a quake hits my building - especially ones claiming a higher moral ground.

Lets face it, these tragedies are common and with the population increasing the way it is, we should understand the absolute numbers of casualties will increase over time.

The earth is not afraid to continue on without us, death is a fact of life - true grief comes from the loss of love not the loss of life. One can feel blessed just to eat good food each day and still know the irony of bad karma. If we mistreat the earth, there are consequences - if we mistreat a people over a long period of time, they will erupt.

Having said that, I am wondering how the Tibetans actually built that long tunnel to SiChuan to set their bomb off undetected!

This is an insensitive comment

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe there'll be a little less gold spam in World of Warcraft now...

RE: judging the people

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, How about we judge them by the posts they made on their bulletin boards back in the '90s when Taiwan elected its first democratically elected president? (Lee Tung Hui)

Chinese university BBS's at the time were filled with plans on how to invade Taiwan with fishing boats as transports/landing craft so they could kill all the men and rape the women in Taiwan so that way there would only be Chinese in Taiwan in the future.

The Chinese gov't has fostered 1914 style nationalism/patriotism to the point of lost control.

You can argue this is the gov'ts fault for censoring and controlling the media, but the mainland Chinese I talk with, even in the 'States, have gone past knowing they are being manipulated to being willing partners in that manipulation. Watch some of the videos on Youtube about how Tibet "is, always has been and always will be" a part of China and the comments that follow. Talk to them about what they think of some of the things their Gov't has done and is doing. They will defend it in the strongest ways they can. They will repeat Gov't propaganda verbatim.

The Chinese I talk to do this because they want to see China regain its past glory and live up to the countryâ(TM)s name âoeCENTER COUNTRYâ (Jung Guo). Thatâ(TM)s the name of China in Chinese, the Center of the World. Itâ(TM)s indoctrinated in them since elementary school.

Additionally, most Chinese equate economic growth with legitimacy of the govâ(TM)t. China has been growing so fast for so long (30ish years). Most people are benefiting and so they say to the ones left out to just shut up and go away/get out of the way.

While I know some mainland Chinese who do not fit this description Iâ(TM)ve given, most that Iâ(TM)ve met do. Iâ(TM)ve lived in Taiwan for several years, speak Chinese and interact with a lot of Mainland Chinese on a regular basis. They are extremely proud of their country, and are more irrationally defensive than anyone in the west would be if you were to criticize their country. Even people from Taiwan want China to succeed in some ways (but not a one of them want anything to do with the âoecommunistâ govâ(TM)t)

I apologize for posting anonymously, but I do have to go to company picnics, parties and other events where being too direct about these topics would cause "political" problems.

Donation site

[frank1998]

The Red Cross Society of China site seems being overwhelmed. But you can donate through Hong Kong Red Cross.

Re:Heart ?

[sydneyfong]

chinese government might have been using its secret service members (Emphasis mine)

Did it occur to you that all your posts (not just this one) and arguments are based on pure speculation, in turn based on unfounded bias? Did it occur to you that such reasoning methods are flaky? And make yourself sound like an idiot?

Actually it somehow occurred to me that you MIGHT be raping young girls in your basement and killing their babies. (how do I know? you have no evidence to show otherwise...) Yes, so you're a sicko now.

Tell me, why should I care?

[Anonymous Coward]

They dont give a shit about anyone else (Tibet, Darfur, Muslims, Koreans, any other minority that live there). They killed millions of each other during "Great Leap Forward" under Mao ..MILLIONS killed by their own government. They oppress human rights, free speech, woman rights with mandatory abortions Indirectly support infanticides. Why now, I should feel sorry or care about their problems now? Why? How much they cared about other people suffering? Now they want our money, support, and help? Why should I care!?

Re:Tell me, why should I care?

[joeman3429]

Because if you were a truly moral, decent, and intelligent person, you help the man who killed your wife with his groceries.

Re:Tell me, why should I care?

[Mab_Mass]

Why should you care?

Because the actions of a government don't make all of the citizens culpable.

Because good, moral people are struggling to make sense of things and rebuild their lives.

Because maybe you want to live in a world where people look out for one another.

Because ignoring the situation will only cause greater suffering.

Or, how about this:

Because it is the decent thing to do.

Re:Heart ?

[Just Some Guy]

The "whites" were Europeans that came to the Americas, primarily Spanish, French, British, Dutch, etc etc. They did things like hand out small pox blankets.

Wow! Since my ancestors did none of that, I guess I'm not white.

Give it a rest, you racist jerk.

Re:Heart ?

[TapeCutter]

"Yeah, but when they agree with the governments actions..."

You seem to be missing the pointy bit at the end of your sentence?

Re:Everything's going to shit...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm willing to be proven wrong, but I'm confident they are not caused by global warming, pollution, terrorism, war, drugs, the war on drugs, human rights abuses, GM crops, communism, fascism, totalitarianism (other), religious intolerance, litigious *AA's, closed source software, corrupt cops, or failing to tip your waiter! I notice that you didn't include Microsoft in the list of things that couldn't have caused the earthquake. Which makes sense; we all know their bad security model causes natural disasters.

keep your eye on the goldfish

[trongey]

I'd rather keep my eye on the cute girl behind the counter.
I was a bit concerned when she ran back to lock the drawer. Lesson for the day: If you suddenly find yourself bouncing around like a bobblehead the cash drawer isn't important.
Fortunately this vid seems to have been captured far from the epicenter.

Re:keep your eye on the goldfish

[VickiM]

Despite that, I thought it was very brave of her and the others to make sure everyone got out safely. The door was right there, but she went to make sure people knew how to get out. I know that's her responsibility, but the urge to survive isn't easy to fight when the door's right there.

Re:Heart ?

[TapeCutter]

"I keep seeing this come up, and I keep asking is not the government made of people?"

Indeed, but there are 6 billion different opinions on how the world should work. I posted the monkeyshpere link above, but it's worth posting again (note there are two pages).

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your ancestors weren't the "noble savages" everyone likes to pretend they were; they were vicious, savage primitives. They were in many ways much WORSE than the whites of the time; they regularly massacred groups of innocent settlers who had done them no harm, and did so with much viciousness, often torturing them, cutting off their genitals, skinning and scalping them alive, raping their women and turning them into slaves, etc.

We "whites" won because of technological superiority. You're lucky any of your ancestors were allowed to survive at ALL considering some of their activities during that period. Oh, and before you start waving your smallpox-infected blankets around, try and remember that "whites" originated in many nations, each of which behaved entirely differently. You can't lump the Spanish and their smallpox blankets in with us English, who just shot your stupid asses when you dropped by for an impromptu raid. Do your homework.

Tell you what. Take the chip off your shoulder, let the past go, and work on the society we currently have, like a nice productive citizen.

After all, nobody currently in existence is related to the crimes of the past in any way. All the perpetrators are long dead. Let them stay that way.

Re:Heart ?

[sydneyfong]

In fact, I agree.

Fact is that humans don't get totally brainwashed that easily, and some don't buy into that crap despite the amount of crap you feed them.

Happy?

Re:Heart ?

[aproposofwhat]

I hate the Chinese government - I have Tibetan and Nepalese friends, and have heard from them what goes on in Tibet.

But this is a major disaster for those involved, and we should all wish God speed to the emergency services who are trying to help those afflicted by the earthquake.

So I hope that in this case the Chinese government has everything it needs to give assistance, and that they succeed - but they'll dance on my grave before I concede that Tibet is Chinese.

Re:Heart ?

[zoogies]

OK, got it:

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10875823

The Economist, I trust, is a reputable enough source?

The destruction was systematic. Shops owned by Tibetans were marked as such with traditional white scarves tied through their shutter-handles. They were spared destruction. Almost every other one was wrecked.

and...

For hours the security forces did little. But the many Hans who live above their shops in the Tibetan quarter were quick to flee. Had they not, there might have been more casualties. (The government, plausibly, says 13 people were killed by rioters, mostly in fires.) Some of those who remained, in flats above their shops, kept the lights off to avoid detection and spoke in hushed tones lest their Mandarin dialect be heard on the streets by Tibetans. One Han teenager ran into a monastery for refuge, prostrating himself before a red-robed Tibetan abbot who agreed to give him shelter.

I'm a little surprised though, that the burden of proof should be on me here. It makes me wonder where you get your sources of information, that you would doubt it so heavily and then sternly warn me to not use Chinese press.

If you take BBC or CNN, it's going to be focused entirely on the Chinese response, and not the riots and destruction. If you take local Chinese news, it's going to be focused on the destruction caused to the Chinese people. Since we're not there, the best we can do is find the most firsthand sources we can, or read it all and acknowledge the balance necessary.

Re:Heart ?

[J3M]

Excellent post sir.

Re:Heart ?

[zoogies]

Ah, well, like I said, I'm not brushed up on the history of land claims. It's a common topic - around the world - and a very testy one, so I won't go there.

I mean, also, America kind of fucking invaded America and have been migrating Europeans there, totally diluting the American population, so I don't *quite* think that's a strong point you've made.

You're saying protest was merited. Granted. But burn shops and kill people and shit, and there'd better be some arrests.

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

i will only say this once

fuck you spammer!

Re:Heart ?

[Hijacked Public]

people care more about whether they can buy the next cool thing You compared China and the US, and although I don't think any given post has to completely encompass a person's entire realm of thought on a given subject, it should be noted that the same thing applies to most governor->governed relationships not just in modern times but all throughout history.

Bread and circuses. The stuff works, and it has been refined over the course of many years. Maybe one day you tell people that they have to follow your rules so they can have life after death and the next day you dangle their credit score in front of them, but the process is the same.

Shut up, do your work, and you get to buy stuff.

Re:Heart ?

[zoogies]

....

I think I'm not wrong in saying you have NEVER been to China.

And that you are making statements, again, based on INCREDIBLY ignorant, preconceived notions. ....I'm shocked by how authoritatively you can make a statement that is so completely false.

I'm not even a little embarrassed

[hassanchop]

What I see is needless suffering that is the direct result of a government that deliberately hamstrung development, relegating many parts of the country to little better than third world level conditions.

What I see is a disaster, made worse by conditions that said government was directly responsible for.

You ought to be embarrassed to think that way.

Who the fuck are you, Orwell? What makes you think you have the right to anyone what to think about anything, especially given your obliviousness to the conditions that were a direct contributor to the death toll?

No, I'm not embarrassed that I'm not wallowing in needless sentimentality. People die, it's tragic. That it's made worse by a government whose job it is to prevent such tragedies deserves discussion.

People will continue to die in natural disasters. That is unavoidable. People will continue to die under the Chinese regime. That is TOTALLY avoidable.

I'm not embarrassed about focusing on things that can actually be influenced by my actions. I;m not the least bit embarrassed about putting my emotion into action that is useful.

Re:I'm not even a little embarrassed

[gpuk]

Fuck me you're biased. Compare the US rescue effort immediately post Katrina with the Chinese one and ask yourself who's living in the third world? You can bet your self righteous ass the US would have done a better job if the hurricane had landed in California or New York or Washington i.e. somewhere non-black and poor. As far as I'm concerned racism is as bad as human rights abuse. Before berating the Chinese maybe you should focus your vitriol on cleaning up your own house. Fuck you, you should be embarrassed.

Re:Heart ?

[zoogies]

Thank you! Agreed in full.

Re:Heart ?

[zoogies]

You clearly don't understand China.

People don't LOVE the government there - at least, not most of them.

One of the worst offenders of the human race? Puh-lease.

Just like any human being would, most of them are more concerned with scrapping a manageable living out of very poor conditions.

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes it's sad what the Chinese govt did to Tibetan protesters in the past but this article is not about that.
Don't derail this thread and turn it a podium for your own agenda. You'll only draw animosity from the general public towards your cause. There are other ways to voice your opinion.

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Tibet has been under Chinese occupation during the last 60 years..do you think they will win back their country by just sitting on their asses while the Chinese keep fucking them? All revolutions are bloody, get used to it.

Nicely deflected

[hassanchop]

Ahh, well, forgive me for being so inconsiderate of the need for people who have no personal connection to the tragedy to cope in such a manner. It's clearly affecting them *so* strongly, and I must be wrong to have assumed otherwise.

Nicely deflected. Sarcasm aside, who the fuck are you to

a) tell people how to react to a tragedy? What makes you the arbiter of appropriate reaction?

b) make assumptions about the motivations of the people you're judging?

Your reaction isn't appropriate for everyone, yet you seem to think it is. Assuming that you know the motivation of the people you're judging is just outright arrogance.

You deal with this how you like. Meanwhile, others get to do the same. At least they should, but you don't seem to want to let them.

Re:Nicely deflected

[zoogies]

I'm not saying, "you should all react the way I do."

Nope, I'm just seeing a lot of jokers sitting in the comfy confines of their rooms making light of a situation. Normally, I probably wouldn't say anything, but, well, my friends have family there.

So, you know, it kind of irks to see others 'cope' in this manner. It's an emotional response, not a reasoned one. Read some of those comments, and you might see why I'd be pissed.

US will be wiped out by yellowstone. Nobody cares.

[anwyn]

The US will be wiped out by the yellowstone super volcano/caldera. FEMA will not come to the rescue IC engines do not work when filters clogged with volcanic dust. This volcano blows at regular times and it is about 1000 years overdue. Land movement has been noticed in yellowstone area. This could be the last warning we will ever receive. People in the immediate vicinity (1000 miles) killed by pyroplastic flows. Pyroplastic dust cut peoples lungs to pieces. Dust on power lines short out. Can't grow crops in dust. Volcanic winter kills harvests. Dust on roofs crush houses. IC engines do not work because of dust.

There are preparations that could be made. Could end the pay farmers not to grow food program and use savings to buy excess, stockpiling food. Filter masks could be stockpiled. Filters for IC engines could be stockpiled. Power companies could be encouraged to find rapid ways to clear dust from power lines.

None of these things are being done. Without them we and/or children grandchildren are all dead.

Republicans should be told that dead people do not have to worry about Iraq.

Democrats should be told that dead people do not have to worry about the Global Warming nonsense.

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

It continues to this day... Honest Injin??

yeah whatever

[Anonymous Coward]

they should all die. make a glass nuclear desert out'v the whole country

Re: judging the people

[TapeCutter]

"I apologize for posting anonymously, but I do have to go to company picnics, parties and other events where being too direct about these topics would cause "political" problems."

The quote above really doesn't put you in a position to pass judgement, if your so quick to hide your thoughts without any coercion then how do you know what your Chinese collegues "really" think?

The rest of your post is a stereotype at best and like a newspaper horoscope it can be applied to just about any powerfull nation.

BTW: The "Center of the world" thing refers to the ancient seat of the Emporer, it has as much meaning as "God's own country", "Viva la France" or "Rule Brittania".

That's twice you've deflected with sarcasm

[hassanchop]

...ahhh, yes, for those posters, death is just impending!

Seeing as everyone dies, yes, it is.

So, would you care to actually respond to my point, or should I take your second nonsensical response as an admission that you know you were being an arrogant asshole?

Re:That's twice you've deflected with sarcasm

[zoogies]

My point - hm, we seem to be having two parallel conversations, but anyway - is this:

It's not gallow's humor, at least not the way I read the intro to that article.

There are a lot of people here who actually know people who are living in the Sichuan region. And there are a lot of people who couldn't care less, which, is not their fault if they're not personally connected to this. BUT, they could try not to be an insensitive jerk about it, for the sake of those who are more affected than they are.

"Everyone dies" ... is a rather empty justification for that being gallow's humor, by the way. It makes *everything* gallow's humor, since apparently were are all living stressful, life-threatening lives.

Video Not Representative of the Power

[yakiimo]

I have a little experience with earthquakes, and I know one person very well who lived through the 1995 Kobe-Hanshin earthquake. There is no way that the video was anywhere close to the center of the earthquake.

Close to the center of an earthquake that powerful, you wouldn't be able to walk or even stand up, much less file out of the building like you see in the video.

So if you're taking notes for how to deal with a bad earthquake, don't use that video as a measuring stick. One way or another that goldfish would have flown across the room and smashed into the wall (or perhaps even the ceiling in a vertically moving quake).

Re:Heart ?

[revengance]

Strange strange strange. you have not read about the periodic isolated unrest in china? What is the western media doing?

Re:Heart ?

[TapeCutter]

Thank you for your reply but we cannot engage in sex with our customers, perhaps I could interest you in some FREE PORN. ;)

If you think that's the only difference...

[hassanchop]

Then your opinion isn't worth listening to.

The only difference is that in China there are more people who are willing to see their government as something distinct from themselves;

Really? That's the ONLY difference?

Why did you people mod this incoherent tripe insightful?

Re:If you think that's the only difference...

[joeman3429]

it was pretty coherent... He said that some people in china see the government as being distinct from themselves (yeah, coherent) and that it is odd that a president with a terrible support rating, in a country where in principle the people choose the leaders, that he is still president. That, too is coherent

Re:If you think that's the only difference...

[dalutong]

Societies are complex beasts. But the distinction I was making was when detailing the difference between ignorant people in the China and in the United States, which was the scope I had defined just before detailed the difference.

You want to know some more differences, with different scopes? China doesn't have the legal system that has matured in the United States. That's why groups like the ACLU still exist even though we've had president that would have, had they not been legally required not to, shut them down. China does not have the same mature forums for civil discourse, like the free press, though some of those in America are pretty pathetic too.

China has serious problems. Most have to do with the lack of discussion on where China is going. But I don't mean in terms of Chinese militarism, etc. I mean things like sustainable growth. China has been convinced, by their government and by ours, that capitalism will allow them to all live hollywood lives. But China has 4x the number of people as the US with 1/3 the arable land. They can't all live the sweet suburban life with 2 SUVs.

But a lot of that discussion is missing the U.S. as well, for the reason I detailed in the last post. We assume that, since our system is the best and is democratic, wherever we go is the best place to be. But if everyone thinks that, then no one spends enough time actually thinking about where we should be going.

The Chinese are lucky to have reasonably good leadership. Eventually their governmental system is going to have to change to make sure they get new generations of good leaders. But the government is tackling corruption, promoting education (something you're not allowed to do in the U.S. or else you're called elitist), and reforming its laws. Is it a pretty process? No. But neither was ours. (And, btw, there are some people in the world who would consider our government similarly derelict on some issues, like universal health care, education, and the environment. Most dismiss those as the price of living in a free, free market, society. Some of what China does isn't excusable. Some of it is the price of super accelerated modernization. The government can't switch over to being perfect overnight. And if you don't think it's headed in the right direction, you need to learn to better compare the China of 1978, 1988, 1998, and 2008.)

Re:Heart ?

[geekoid]

Good thing all those white are dead, and you weren't hurt by them!

Man I am sick of people throwing in MY face the sick atrocities of people from the past.

China is a Big Place

[Anonymous Coward]

TL;DR version
=============
China is a big place, don't generalize about the people. The Chinese government isn't as evil as people would have you believe just because they are communist, but it's not like they are paragons of moral fortitude either. If you want to see a really good documentary on China, checkout "China from the Inside" (it was done by PBS). I've heard from people that have lived in China that it does a pretty good job of being accurate.

The Rest
========
While I am appalled at some of the responses to this tragedy with "those damn commies deserve it," the people responding with "don't condemn the people for the government" also aren't exactly on the mark either. I've found that almost no one has a good opinion on China -- on either side of the issue.

China is a place that is mired in the veil of communism by the West. But you can't exactly treat China as you would the old USSR. Russian culture is more similar to a lot of Western cultures than Chinese culture is. So in some ways it was easier to understand when the 'red threat' had more cultural similarities to our culture. But China has a different people and a different culture. And China is a *large* place. You have everything from Tibet with its Buddhism to the areas bordering places like Pakistan and Afghanistan where the people want to be Muslims (which the government also doesn't like because they want to impose the culture of East -- the Beijing-Shanghai culture -- as the 'one true culture' of China).

With 1.3 billion people, and such a large geographical area you can't just lump 'the Chinese' into one large group of people and stereotype them.

People here on /. love to criticize the Chinese and blame the Chinese government for all the cases of espionage that we hear about in the news. Well, the culture over there is different than it is here. If they can get away with it, then they don't care. I'd say it's less a matter of direct government intervention than a case of either cultural attitudes and/or indirect (but possibly intentional) government encouragement. There might be a little government indifference thrown in there too (especially since it hurts 'enemies'), but it's not like such things aren't foreign to human history (even Western history). Just look at the whole history of the pirates that raided Spanish ships from the New World being supported 'under the table' by England. It's not to say that it's right, but it's hardly the organized, systematic frontal assault on 'the West' that some commenters on slashdot would have you believe.

Then we have the whole Tibet issue. Both sides of this issue have their faults. There is the 'free Tibet' side that views Chinese occupation/annexation of Tibet as some sort of group decision by all of the Chinese. Then there is the side of the nationalistic Chinese that try to defend their government's decisions.

I've heard pro-Chinese arguments for the occupation of Tibet that range from "well, the Tibetans are getting all these benefits from being part of China, like food and education" to "well, Tibet used to be part of China in the past." Personally I think that the Chinese government has a multi-reasoned justification for this:

1. They need it for more land. They pump a *lot* of Chinese settlers into this area. I'm not sure whether this is just in an attempt to overwhelm the current population/culture with what they deem to be 'true Chinese' or if this is just people filling in the population vacuum on their own.

2. They see part of their goal as rebuilding China to an empire like in ancient times. This would include retaking territories that historically had belonged to them. It also is part of a 'morale booster' effect to promote nationalism.

Keep in mind though that this happened years ago. The Dhali Lama was a child when it happened. I seriously doubt that the Chinese would right now attempt such a thing as taking over another country. And even if the government believed the Tib

No, that isn't what you're saying

[hassanchop]

I'm not saying, "you should all react the way I do."

No, you're saying that the comments are "ignorant, insensitive, and hurtful" among other things, which is no better, and possibly worse. You're also advocating that said people stop sharing such sentiments, so you're advocating censorship as well.

So, you know, it kind of irks to see others 'cope' in this manner.,/blockquote>

Guess what jack, no one cares. What you feel is YOUR responsibility. YOU are the source of your feelings, not the actions of someone else.

Nope, I'm just seeing a lot of jokers sitting in the comfy confines of their rooms making light of a situation

REALLY? How many have you actually witnessed in such situations? Or are you AGAIN making baseless assumptions?

You don't get to tell others how to cope. PERIOD. There IS NO QUALIFIER for that, and every single time you try to avoid admitting that, you display your arrogance.

The fact that when challenged, you resort to childish sarcasm rather than intelligent discussion says volumes about the validity of your thoughts on the subject.

Re:No, that isn't what you're saying

[zoogies]

Those comments ARE insensitive, hurtful, and ignorant, to me. I'm not advocating censorship, but *I* have a huge fucking problem with it. You can call it better or worse, but that's why I respond to them.

I don't get why you are getting so uppity defending these people, or why you are making such a stand.

Have I witnessed people sitting in the comfy confines of their rooms? No. Do you think otherwise, though? Well, I guess that's just my arrogance, huh.

Here's my thing: I know people from Sichuan, whose families are in Sichuan. Granted, it's a large province, and odds are they're OK. But when I see the kind of posts I see, I get mad, and I'll respond.

I really do not see why you feel the need to challenge my legitimacy to respond, tough guy.

Re:No, that isn't what you're saying

[joeman3429]

I think the real point of this "discussion" has lost it's way. I don't believe it's a way of coping, but I also think that people are well within reasonable expectations to make insensitive comments. I for one don't want to live it in a world without people who make fun of horrible tragedies.

I also don't want a world without people who get outraged at people who are insensitive. Checks and balances, you know?

I for one make jokes about terrible things, while at other times I feel genuine pain for what happened in the same tragedy. Insensitive humor and sympathy are not mutually exclusive though, and it's important for everyone to understand that, otherwise people get into big /. debates about this very subject...

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

How the hell is that not a strong point? Since when is the European invasion of the Americas and subsequent genocide "cool"?

The Chinese are occupying Tibet after invading it, and have killed many hundreds of thousands of Tibetans while doing it. I don't see how they can possibly have any expectation of not being in mortal danger, of their shops not being burned.

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

never expect anything but propaganda from a Murdoch company. He publicly accepts that he has a conservative agenda.
Time was acquired long ago by Murdoch and is a tabloid in comparison to what it was earlier.

Re:Heart ?

[alexhard]

Well, maybe the people who died didn't personally deserve it, but the country as a whole most certainly did. The meddling of the US in the politics of other nations, often supporting extremist governments, overthrowing democratically elected ones, and/or selling weapons to terrorists have DIRECTLY resulted in the worldwide hatred of the U.S. and the terrorist attacks.

You see, that's the thing with freedom: you are responsible for the consequences of what choose you do. Previous (and the current) administrations were either too short-sighted, or simply didn't give a fuck. The citizens of the U.S. elected them, and are thus (partly) responsible for - and deserved - what has happened.

Re:Heart ?

[sdhoigt]

Thanks for your insight.

I've felt for a long time that it is the US government and controlled media who keep "China" as an enemy to US citizens (of which I am one).

It wasn't until I visited China a few years back and met many, many sincerely nice Chinese people on the street (weren't they supposed to hate me, I'm American?), that I could confirm that American citizens are prisoners of our government/media's agenda.

I know this is a simplistic experience, but it left a lasting impact.

Thanks,
SD

2008 vs. 1989 earthquake - WS vs. Olympics

[kaptain80]

I was just thinking... The 1989 Loma Prieta quake "only" killed 67 people, even though it happened during a World Series game with tens of thousands of people in one stadium. How do you think the facilities for the Beijing Olympics are spec'd with regards to earthquake environments? Is this even an earthquake zone? What would happen if this happened during an Olympic event? Not trying to be doom/gloomy -- just wondered...

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't you get some facts about what Tibet was before the theocracy was chased out, and afterwards? Get serious about what kind of society that Free Tibet people want? Ever thought of Taliban?
If you think that you have a heart, your wards just shown that it just a hollow shell, or a fake.

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with you. I am a Chinese. I grew up in China too, and I am not a member of any political group , Those people support Chinese gov are basically heartless or they just don't care what this Communist gov have done to his own people during their 60 years of control of china and this gov is still trying to cover up what cause more than 30, 000, 000 Chinese farmers died of hunger during 1950-1960 .

There are some overseas Chinese, they just take advantage and become citizen of western country , and they want their own children to enjoy the freedom of these country, On the other hand, they don't want their own follow Chinese who still live in Communist china to have the freedom they have. They are so shameless, I just don't know how to describe them.

some news from Chinese language sites

[gzipped_tar]

I have travelled to that area three years ago. There used to be a fairly good road into the mountains, but in summer it is constantly threated by pouring rains and collapsing rocks from the mountain on both sides. The road passes a place named Diexi, which used to be a town but sank into the bottom of the river Min-Jiang after an earthquake during the reign of Republic of China. Up the river is Wenchuan, one of the most heavily inflicted area.

I read some reports based on the info obtained 3 hours ago. The quake came with heavy rain. Almost all communications and power supply are down and the road (which I once travelled on) was completely destroyed. Now the only way to get in there is walking on foot (not even by airplane or helicopters, since there're no guiding signal up, and visibility is next to nothing, and there are thunder clouds). There was attemps with paratroopers but turned out not effective (4 soldiers died in the operation among the 100 total).

There are several resevoir/power plants along the river there. Some of them are being damaged, and it's possible that the reserverd water could got flowing out uncontrolled...

And everything that can go wrong is going wrong there.

Re:Heart ?

[Ex-MislTech]

That is true, the Chinese are paying the militas to
kill or scare off the native Africans In Darfur right
now so they can get the land rich in oil.

That's not just my opinion but is documented in the
documentary "Crude Awakening".

Re:Heart ?

[Ex-MislTech]

The "whites" >were

Past tense amigo.

If none of your ancestors were involved then good for you.

Also what your ancestors did does not make you guilty.

The American Indian is finally enjoying some success here
lately and the tribes can provide health care now outside
of government assistance due to the casinos.

As for me being racist ???

I thought I simply provided links and stated the facts.

The ppl that came and killed my ancestors as far as I know
were 100% white, and I am pretty sure the ppl giving the
orders were too.

I am not saying the Native Americans were kind and perfect,
but simply explained the reference, and the perspective.

Call it what you like, I call it the truth.

Re:um not to sound like a dick

[Duradin]

And it's things like "feeling the pain" and sympathy that tends to lead to greater suffering.

After 9/11, we *had* to do something. 'Cause we all felt the pain of those who lost someone. We couldn't let them die in vain. So what did we do? Something rational like acknowledge the loss and move on?

No.

We had to avenge the dead. We had to be sure no one else would "feel the pain" of event such as this again. We acted rather irrationally and found some target to lash out at. Look where we are at now. That sympathy did so much good and eased so much suffering didn't it?

Misguided sympathy and empathy leads only to more suffering. It may make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside when you think how morally superior you are because you allow emotional thinking to overtake rational thought more than the person next to you but that doesn't make the world all warm and fuzzy. People need to move on and get to the things that need to be done. If that happens to be continue with life as usual, so be it. Sitting around being paralyzed by your sympathy for all the suffering in the world doesn't help anyone.

Re:Heart ?

[Ex-MislTech]

Hahahhahaa,

You can't lump the Spanish and their smallpox blankets in with us English, who just shot your stupid asses when you dropped by for an impromptu raid. Do your homework.

Excerpt for the link you obviously didn't read:

The British may have used smallpox as a biological warfare agent during the French and Indian Wars (1754â"63), against France and its Native American allies (see more information at Siege of Fort Pitt).

Afraid it was Brits, so like g'day mate.

Also, I never said the Native Americans did not try to defend
their home viciously.

I am pretty sure you would to.

As for superior technology, that is the Might makes Right argument.

If you want to go down that road, Hitler was ok for trying to
destroy the UK ?

I think not.

There are a lot of ppl who try to justify the colonial expansion
period of Europe, but it made bitter enemies of most of the world.

The brits bragging about how the sun never sets on the british
empire made them quite hated.

I am totally amazed the Chinese have waited this long to
pay you back for what you did in Hong Kong, but be sure
the day of reckoning will arrive at some point.

Nationalist?

[toddhisattva]

Scotland is currently part of the United Kingdom, and nationalists - like me - want it to be independent. Thanks for the update!

Nationalism is bad, especially if you (generic) are American, and that goes doppel fur Germans.

But nationalism is good if you are:

1. French
2. Mexican, or American who thinks and wishes he was Mexican
3. Scots

Who else?

Just want to make sure who has the correct permissions to be proud of their country!

Re:Heart ?

[Ex-MislTech]

It was before my time, and I didn't "throw it" in your face.

You read it and took offense.

You can take or leave whatever you want from any words,
and freedom of speech is a right.

Not all ppl will say something you agree with.

As soon as you realize that, you can start to
comprehend what the founding fathers meant.

I don't have a problem with Europeans coming to America,
it started off with trade, and fairly amenable terms.

Some ppl on "both" sides turned it into a blood bath.

I will say that once it reached the treaty stage though,
the natives were lied to time and time again.

Try to keep your emotions at bay when you read the post,
and you will get the point of my statements.

I wrote it sarcastically, not hatefully.

We go in and liberate Iraq, but Burma can rot,
Darfur can rot, Rwanda can rot, etc etc etc.

The motives for Iraq are the NO BID contract for Halliburton
and as I know ppl that work for them, I know 100% it is true.

I wouldn't be so smug

[tjstork]

What I see is needless suffering that is the direct result of a government that deliberately hamstrung development, relegating many parts of the country to little better than third world level conditions. What I see is a disaster, made worse by conditions that said government was directly responsible for.

I wouldn't be so smug. I would not be so sure that the USA itself would be immune to a 7.9 earthquake even in areas that are purportedly prepared for them. A 7.9 quake is a damned big quake, and I would not be so sure even LA or SF would walk away from one of those without some loss of life. God help us if the USA had a New Madrid quake. A New Madrid quake usually is an 8-9 Richter job that would pretty level the entire mid western USA, and would kill hundreds of thousands of people.

Nature and justice are not the same thing. When a man falls through the ice on a lake and drowns, you just have to feel bad for the wife and children he or she left behind. Yeah, he made a mistake, but the tragedy is so terrible, that the punishment for that mistake is notably unjust.

Mother Nature is some bitch, and all of us, as humans, regardless of political system or religious beliefs, share a common ground in that.

Re:Heart ?

[Just Some Guy]

The "whites" <

were Past tense amigo.

No. "The" whites never were. "Some" whites were. That's not just semantic nitpicking, but a very important difference.

Imagine that I had said that "the Indians are lazy alcoholics". That casts a pretty wide net, doesn't it? Some Indians (and whites and blacks and purples) are lazy alcoholics, but my words just implied that all are. Well, some whites were unremorseful genocides, but you can't generalize that to cover every European descendant.

I'm actually pretty thick-skinned and don't get insulted easily. If you walked into my office and said "hey, paleface", I'd laugh and we'd go eat lunch. Still, what you originally said was pretty offensive to the vast majority of us "whites" who had nothing to do with what happened to your people. It sucks, I feel for you, and understand why you might distrust us, but that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't me or my family who did it.

Re:Heart ?

[Ex-MislTech]

Yeah, like I said if your family wasn't part of it, then
you have no reason to be angry.

And I sure as hell know you were not part of it.

They called us the savages, we called them the whites or worse, lol.

And like I said, as far as I know:

The ppl that came and killed my ancestors as far as I know
were 100% white, and I am pretty sure the ppl giving the
orders were too.

If you can point any other color that instigated it,
I'd be more than happy to bestow the dishonor on them as well.

I do not see why you take it personally.

Black ppl call themselves Black, are you ashamed of being white ?

No one needs to be ashamed of their color, just their actions.

And from what you said your family did nothing wrong.

So its all good in the neighborhood.

Re:Heart ?

[WNight]

Those are the Whites as much as drunken louts are the Indians.

Oh, you aren't drunk? And I didn't kill your ancestors. Go figure.

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know you probably linked there because it was easy, but I know the only thing I could think of is "If it is on Wiki, it MUST be true!" Not really disputing your post, just a comment.

Another point I would like to make, is people have been breaking "treaties" as long as... well people have been making treaties. Not sure who the first jerks were, but I am sure we haven't seen the last either.

I am not as up on my Native history as I should be, so my opinions are pretty general. The one thing that sort of gets my goat in Canada, is the idea of "special" rights (not exclusive to Native peoples).

I understand that we should strive as a "good" society to do the right thing, and I think it is pretty universally understood that the plight of some of the Native communities economically has been the result of our Government. That the government should take some responsibility for these matters is a given at this point.

I also understand that like the francophones in Canada, certain precautions should me made to protect their culture because it is as much a part of Canada as anything (its more like protection from US influences than anything else I think, though in this day in age probably harder than ever to keep distinct).

However I REALLY dislike the creation of laws that allow one group of people to do one thing based on race, religion, etc... while not allowing the same rights to anyone else. Perhaps it is the simplified communist in me, but I don't think that is fair.

I also I see the commercial application of this as abuse of privilege, which is even worse.

I have no answers, and I know its not question that has simple answers.

Not "one child" anymore (OT)

[danaris]

My wife takes regular business trips to China, and has learned something interesting about the "one child" policy: apparently, the way it works now is that you can keep having daughters as long as you want, but once you have a male child, you aren't allowed to have any more children (at least, not without paying some kind of penalty that even someone well-to-do in a 1st world country would find prohibitive...)

Dan Aris

Re:Heart ?

[WNight]

Even now, ask your Chinese (born there, not just ancestry) coworkers if they think China will invade Taiwan.

I bet you they'll say something like:

"Well, there's a huge swell of nationalism in Taiwan! Most of them want to come back to China, but can't. So yes, but only to bring our brothers back to the family."

They aren't bad people. They aren't saying Taiwan should be nuked. But they're deluded as fuck. Most Taiwanese would vote China off the planet it they could - they aren't looking to go back. They might be "brothers" racially, but politically have made it very clear that they do not want any part of China.

How could these people not know? Either a whole country collectively has the intelligence of a fast-food worker, or they're being brainwashed. Considering China drives tanks over people who wish to read a newspaper, this isn't really hard to believe.

In the USA many people don't agree with Bush. I for one think we should hand him to the UN for war-crimes trials. But that's not a shooting offense. (Yet?) In China you might be hauled off in the night for that, only to return as the vital-organs of many rich foreigners.

If countries had personalities, China would be Stalin. Brutal, insane, and paranoid.

Blood libel

[Anonymous Coward]

much?

You've learned nothing from history.

Re:Heart ?

[WNight]

Yeah yeah, don't look at China, other places are bad too...

You might be educated, as others might, but it's got to be harder in a country where tying to access uncensored news is a crime.

I've asked tons people about the war in Iraq and gotten a ton of different opinions about its effectiveness and legitimacy. Ask Chinese people about Taiwan or Tibet and they start spouting the state line. Without realizing it, I'm sure. The country with the more-controlled news and internet cannot help but have more ignorant citizens.

The problem is you don't have a government. You have a dictatorship that runs your physical region, but it doesn't have any legitimacy and never has. China has always been ruled through force. For so long you can't even imagine another way. China isn't even really a country, just an armed slave camp.

Take a bunch of random people in a discussion about government. Most will bitch about their own system. The Chinese - arguably having one of the worst government by rational standards - do nothing but laud their system and/or make excuses for it.

Who else did this? Soviets...

dont forget 3 gorges dam

[_Qiang_]

there is speculation in china that the 3-gore dam may be the one or among others to blame for the earthquake, because of the vast amount of water being kept in the upstream of Yangtze river,which is in the sichuan province, adding great pressure to the earth.

3 gorges dam is designed for 7 on the Richter scale. i can't imagine what would happen if something greater hit the dam. here is the gov official announcement on 3 gorges dam. http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-05/13/content_8160453.htm

Keep these frequencies clear for relief efforts!

[amper]

According to Tim, N9PUZ, the moderator of the Buddipole Users Group, who forwarded a message from Michael Chen, BD5RV/4, the following frequencies are being used for relief efforts in the Sichuan region, and should be kept clear of all other traffic:

14.270 MHz

7.050 MHz

7.060 MHz

FORWARDED MESSAGE:

I know lot's of buddipole users monitor 14.270 for QSO's, but for now
we may want to find a different frequency based on the following
information:

"Strong earthquake hits China, all ham radio operators stand by

"A Magnitude 7.8 earthquake hits Sichuan, China on Monday, May 12,
2008 at 06:28:04 UTC. Casualties and loss unknown up to now. According
to Chinese Radio Sports Association, 14.270Mhz, 7.050 and 7.060 Mhz
are preserved for amatuer radio emergency service in the rescue.
Please spread this message as far as you can and keep the frequencies
clean for emergency use. Thank you.

"Your attention please! 14.270Mhz is now reserved for ARES in 5.12
earth quake in Sichuan, China. Please help to keep this frequency
clear.

"A group of radio amateurs is now transmitting from Wenchuan, the
center of quake. Its signal is reported to be very weak. They tried to
keep communication with BY8AA in Chengdu, seeking for all resources
needed. During a contact finished a few minutes ago, they were asking
for raincoats, water, tents, and outdoor living facilities.

"PLEASE HELP TO FORWARD THIS MESSAGE TO ALL RELEVANT FORUMS, MAILING
LISTS, AND NEWS RESOURCES. MEANWHILE, KEEP THE ABOVE FREQUENCY CLEAN
FOR EMERGENCY COMMUNICATION.

"Michael Chen, BD5RV/4

Duration varies with distance

[Solandri]

The two different types of shaking (P and S waves, basically longitudinal and transverse) travel through the earth at different speeds, so the further away you are the more spread out over time they get, and the longer the shaking goes on. The video doesn't have very severe shaking so it was probably taken quite a distance from the epicenter, so the shaking duration would be extended.

IIRC the Northridge quake in 1994 only lasted about 17 seconds at the epicenter. I was about 100 miles away when it hit and the shaking went on for a good 30-45 seconds. Based on the immediate reports I got from friends over email and their estimates of the duration of shaking, I was able to pinpoint the epicenter somewhere in western Los Angeles long before the news services.

At the epicenter itself, the duration of the shaking generally corresponds to the length of fault that gives way. If only a few km slips, it's a short quake. If several thousand km slips (like happened in Chile 1960 and Alaska 1964) the shaking can go on for several minutes. The Alaska quake was 4 minutes at the epicenter, with several distant but affected communities reporting shaking for almost 10 minutes.

Also note that earthquake magnitude is a measure of energy released, while certain types of damage correspond more to the power (energy over time) of the quake. The Northridge quake was moderate in terms of magnitude, but its direction and focus generated enormous power in certain areas. One seismograph recorded accelerations over 1g, whereas the previous largest recorded acceleration during an earthquake was less than 0.25g (typically you only see about 0.5 - 0.1g).

Re:Heart ?

[WNight]

Chinese people are nice, and this says what about their government or state of mind control?

China is our enemy though. That of anyone who doesn't want to be called China. For whatever reason, Taiwan had said "Stay back", and China keeps threatening. That doesn't sound like the actions of a friendly nation.

This doesn't mean Chinese people are an enemy, any more than Russians. I can't imagine the average Chinese person themselves is much different from either of us. Russian people aren't. But the USSR was an enemy, and China is an enemy. Not to the USA, but to all people in the world who don't think it's a crime to read a foreign newspaper.

China is an enemy to its own people as well (or moreso), as is any country that assumes it owns the people and can do anything from keep them ignorant to sell their organs.

Re:Heart ?

[WNight]

And that part of 1984 is pretty much accepted to be spot on.

In the USA people march the street expressing their hatred of the country. Yawn. Another day of political yammering.

But in many countries we'd consider far worse we see the victims (citizens) themselves lauding the benefits of their totalitarian regime.

So either they're so much more educated than everyone elsewhere, such that they know of some higher purpose behind the state's atrocities, or they're so much worse educated that they don't know of many of the state's atrocities and assume that what they do know of must be the same elsewhere...

Not everyone can be pleased, nor will anything please everyone. If people are complaining about government injustices it's not because that government has problems, but because that government doesn't shoot complainers.

In most countries (free ones) you're allowed to be wrong. If you say something incorrect other people might disagree but you won't be hauled off for re-education. China "protects" its citizens, lest one find a scrap of information and, without the benevolent protection of the state, misunderstand it.

If you think there's a tiny bit of freedom in China I dare you to make a mirror of Wikipedia, in its totality, and take it home to China. Declare it at the border. Make copies for everyone. Have your next of kin smuggle out a report of how well it went. Dibs on your pancreas.

No, that's junk.

[sethstorm]

You know that nice cheap computer you're reading Slashdot on? I bet more than a few bits of it were made in China.

Or that flatsceen TV you have. Or your DVD player? Nice cannot describe what they make. As much jobs and oil that they've taken, it's hard to see sympathy. Especially so when that has created disasters of economic types.

Re:Heart ?

[WNight]

The answer is that the Scottish, the Irish, and the Tibetans all deserve absolute self-rule, without any interference from the settlers.

Impossible? Only if we invest power in nations, whose only claim to legitimacy is a border on a map.

If there was no force that could compel you to fight in a war, or pay taxes for one, you might actually be free. Until then you merely trade English rulers for Scottish ones.

Re:Avian Flu Vaccine For H5N1 Mutation Human to Hu

[jvkjvk]

I thought that the main trouble of flus like Avian flu was the immune system response killing the host (which is why more healthy, younger people die with these varieties - their healthier immune systems mount a much stronger response, which kills them).

Will such vaccines moderate the immune response or kill the flu so fast that a massive immune response is averted? Or am i completely wrong? :) Thanks!

Mod parent up

[Jnfields]

Thanks For The Link.

Re:Heart ?

[Mab_Mass]

Stop judging a nation's people by it's government's actions and the world will make a lot more sense.

Well said. As an American I would hate to be judged by the actions of my government.

Re:Heart ?

[joeman3429]

I think one of the issues is that it sounds like you're saying it *would* matter if it was his family. As far as ancestors go, family or not family doesn't matter. They're all just dead people with only the faintest connection to us living people.

And it is kind of offensive calling them 100% white. I'm pretty sure they were also 100% European and we can all agree that calling a French guy German might sound kind of weird.

Because it reality it wasn't just white people, it was French people, English people, probably some random dutch people too. To put them all in the same group is just inaccurate.

Re:Heart ?

[joeman3429]

Right makes Right doesn't apply. It's just a natural way of life. The bigger stick or better tactic wins. It isn't saying it's right, it's just saying it is what it is.

Re:Heart ?

[joeman3429]

So, they were lied to. Seems pretty natural to me. I mean, if I was a frontier kind of guy, or a politician in the position to make and break treaties, looking to free up some land that some indians had, and didn't have moral problems with lying, why wouldn't I?

It's like saying there's something odd about a Owl eating a rodent. The owl wants food, and has no moral qualms about killing another animal to get that food. Why shouldn't it?

Re:Heart ?

[joeman3429]

No no, I'm pretty sure all 1.3 Billion citizens left their cities and farms and went to tibet to beat down the protesters. All of them. It was a pretty epic thing to watch, actually.

Re:Heart ?

[sydneyfong]

I don't really dispute the censorship and political persecution you've claimed, I'm just disputing that such censorship could be as effective as 1984 levels, particularly when in this age of the Internet you can't really achieve 100% censorship.

Re:Heart ?

[joeman3429]

Who? What? What the heck are you talking about? Who's them guys?

Re:Heart ?

[Joe the Lesser]

The only evidence of Pox blankets is from letters during the French and Indian war from a particular nasty guy who treated Indians like they were vermin. He certainly had the idea to do it, but there is no hard proof that he went through with it in any form.

It's certainly possible he did since smallpox ravaged colonial and native populations in the area, but he could have just been brainstorming.

I only mention it because you should base your arguments on the clearly proven offenses, and not the ones that may or may not have occurred. There was certainly no hard policy of this behavior set down.

Re:Heart ?

[unity100]

are they not. have you ever been in a repressive regime ? its not about gullibility. its what you are allowed to do, or what you are allowed not.

Re:Heart ?

[joeman3429]

yeah you too buddy. His post is insightful and on topic. And much too long to post here, unfortunately

Re:Heart ?

[unity100]

excuse me, but using secret service to do agitation is not anything speculation. it has been used in almost all big political issue, and its still being used. including the events at iraq, sudan, wherever you need to have a reason for doing something.

Re:Heart ?

[unity100]

again, im very very skeptic towards anything of that sort happening inside a repressive regime. if you checked the media in 1934 around the world, everyone was thinking that communists have burned the reichstag. whereas it was nazi's doing.

Re:Heart ?

[unity100]

i have never been to china, but studied aspects of history decently, and additionally i know people who are living in china, to give me insider information for recent events.

animosity ?

[unity100]

towards me ? truth and justice are more important than what people think about me, or someone else.

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Up yours, cochise.

There were plenty -- PLENTY -- of cases where your savage ancestors viciously attacked and murdered, raped, and tortured harmless, peaceful colonists and missionaries for NO PARTICULARLY GOOD REASON.

Your ancestors were no better than anyone elses; they were just as vicious and nasty as the worst of the "whites" you keep pissing and moaning about. Luckily for the whites at the time, your team was too technically backward to prevail, and the country turned out pretty well as a result.

Thank God we didn't leave it to YOU guys; we'd all be scratching in the dirt instead of working in our towers of glass and steel.

Hi, ho, kemosabe!

your post

[unity100]

is like a beacon of truth amidst a murky sea.

Re:Heart ?

[sydneyfong]

Sigh. You're right.

But then things about Taiwan are a bit more subtle. The Chinese know half of the story, and you know the other half. Read this before?

My personal assessment is that there is a small minority of people in Taiwan who are for reunification (mostly those who fled mainland after the civil war, after all they were born and raised there), a minority that supports independence, and the bulk who don't really care what their country is called as long as their lives are not affected.

So yes, brainwashed to some extent, but I don't see it as significantly worse (well I accept that it's a bit worse) than those misguided people in other countries. For example, how many people believed that Iraq had WMDs? Probably not you, but many do.

The point? There's some propaganda, some brainwashing, but probably not as bad as you've thought. When you encounter a situation where you think your Chinese friends are unacceptably brainwashed, maybe it's just that you've missed a few points yourself.

Re:Heart ?

[sydneyfong]

I've been in mainland China many times and I never felt my brain having reduced capabilities during the stay.

I technically live in China too, technically under PRC rule, in Hong Kong. I think my brain is working fine. Of course, now you may pronounce me retarded~

(and in case you're wondering why I'm talking about a brain, people on slashdot forget conversations fast...)

Re:Heart ?

[unity100]

jesus.

first, you are not chinese. 'being in china' is not same as being grown up in china reading to mao's cookbook that everyone had to memorize at some point in the past, and what is reminiscent of that mechanism still. second, hong kong is not china. its a golden duck, and china treats it as such. it is a privileged prodigal son. third, as a foreigner, anything towards you will be relaxed. if a government informer finds out that you are going to no-no blogs at an internet cafe, they are not going to mess with you because of your nationality. if you were an obscure student from provincial china, and your arrest wont be of any importance to any embassy, that would be another matter.

Re:Heart ?

[sydneyfong]

Except that there is no reason to create riots in Tibet during the sensitive period of the Olympic Torch relay.

Besides, the Chinese government never really had to provide good reason to arrest people, particularly people advocating separatist movements.

Re:that's actually really terrible

[Sylos]

People are dying *every* single day. What makes the individuals in China worth more than the individuals in...well...anywhere? People die. It's a fact of nature.

Four degrees of separation

[kylben]

I someone asked me to link "Earthquake in China" to "American Indian Massacres" in only four steps, I'm not sure I could have done it.

Congratulations.

Re:that's actually really terrible

[joeman3429]

People are dying and you're yelling at people who are effectively doing the same thing you are, posting opinions on slashdot.

Re:Heart ?

[sydneyfong]

If by being a Chinese means "growing up reading mao's cookbook" then in half a century or so there won't be any Chinese left in the world.

It's like saying you're not an American if you're not dumb, or you're not French if you're not a sissy.

Yes I know HK is privileged. I'm basically utilizing the privilege in full right now. But you asked me whether I've been in a "repressive regime", and I answered. Unless you've grown up in mainland China I don't see how you could claim with such certainty that you know better than I do.

I agree that it's harder to get the facts there. Was there two months ago, couldn't get on wiki and some google searches censored. But it's just harder, not impossible, and they still haven't got the technology to control the precise happenings inside your cranium.

Re:Heart ?

[sydneyfong]

And if it pleases you I don't really have a quarrel on the points you've mentioned which I didn't expressly object to.

It's just that you're either factually misinformed, or deliberately exaggerated things, and too emotional on the matter to speak objectively.

Re:Heart ?

[dalutong]

Very good summary.

Re:Heart ?

[dalutong]

China today and the Soviet Union are two totally different things. I used to live in former soviet states, like turkmenistan. That was a dictatorship. That was a place where you couldn't speak ill of the government. It also had no free market and terrible education. The government did whatever it could to make sure the people weren't capable of managing themselves. That is more like the soviet model (though Turkmenistan was probably worse than Russia was.)

China is nothing like that. People talk about all sorts of things. You are right -- they are not able to publish things as freely as in the united states. But it doesn't mean they're "do(ing) nothing but laud(ing) their system." Between the two, the Americans spend a LOT more time lauding our system.

Go to China. Get some real experience there. I was there from 1992 to 1999. Even in 1992, the country was nothing like what people expected. But it was changing rapidly as well. China in 1999 was not dissimilar to America. China in 2008 is even more similar. Is China perfect? Absolutely not. But America has only had (somewhat full) civil rights for 40 years. Think of the social realm of China as being where America was a couple of generations ago. The social structures that mediate community discussion were largely destroyed by the cultural revolution, etc, and haven't yet matured to accommodate the modern, digital, age. But they are not absent. They are just not mature.

(Remember, also, that America did not have anything resembling full freedom of speech until the end of the McCarthy age. The events of today show that our social structures aren't that mature, either. There are plenty of people, possibly a majority, who would just as soon ban the ACLU, etc. We're just lucky that some of our legal structures make that more difficult than in China.)

Re:Heart ?

[dalutong]

another post of mine:

What is up with the anti-China stint? It's like a comment in a Burma thread saying, "I'm surprised America sent any aid to Burma. Usually they just go in, take over the country, and have hundreds of thousands of people killed and torture anyone who disagrees with them."

I already said it in this story, but the greatest trick every played on the American people is convincing them that they government is the way it is because they want it to be that way. And I understand that it isn't easy to see America as simplistically since a lot of the people here are American. But the Chinese are insulted, rightfully so, when they are characterized the way they are. It's like they can't catch a break. They adopt economic reforms? America cheers. They become enough of an economic power that they're now lending money to the United States? They're described as some manipulative power we shouldn't let ourselves be dependent on. They bring literacy up past the levels in the U.S. and they're criticized for stealing our jobs. You think the Chinese people live in fear? Hell no. The American people live in fear, a totally irrational fear, constructed by our government and made possible by our ignorance.

Go to China. You will be amazed. It's not backwards. It's not closed. It's a modern(izing) country. And every time we refuse to treat it as an equal, it will become more antagonistic. In part, because it will see us as hypocrites. Want China to stop working with the Sudanese? Get out of Iraq. Stop funding Saudi Arabia. Apologize for your past transgressions. Until you do that, China's not going to consider itself the lesser of the two. You want to see China become better? Treat it as a partner. Otherwise, you will make it your enemy.

Re:Heart ?

[IronChef]

Stop judging a nation's people by it's government's actions and the world will make a lot more sense.

A lot of people don't apply that thinking to Americans, I have noticed.

Re:Heart ?

[TerranFury]

I am typically very critical of the CCP, but TacoCowboy speaks the truth. This isn't about the CCP. The quake is a human tragedy. Show some respect. Good people are dead.

Like you, I am particularly disturbed by Chinese nationalists. These rabid haters are ignorant, racist, and unthinking -- and their rants, most disturbingly, belie violent fantasies of Sino-"Western" war. I can think of particular Slashdot users who fit this description, who really do frighten me (though I won't name them here). But Taco Cowboy isn't one of them. if you look at some of his other posts (e.g., this one, or even the one you linked to), it's true that he does have a penchant for defending China, but not rabidly, and not without recognizing China's faults as well. He clearly has opinions, but they strike me as reasonable.

It's true; he's all over this thread. But he makes a point worth making. It's a little sad that he has to be making this point.

Besides, in fact I shouldn't have needed to write most of the above two paragraphs, because your post was really an ad-hominem argument. Does it really matter that it was Taco Cowboy in particular who wrote the sentences to which you were responding? They are either right or wrong on their own merits.

In this case, they were correct.

The quake was a tragedy. Sympathies to those affected.

Re:Heart ?

[WNight]

It's not the effectiveness of the censorship, it's the censorship at all.

The Chinese government is literally saying: "We consider every citizen of this country to be incapable of understand world events."

I don't think Chinese people are subhuman, of low intellect, or incapable of understanding complex thoughts. Why does the Chinese government?

Re:Heart ?

[WNight]

I see. I wish China would stop organlegging, I must first stop killing and harvesting prisoners and undesirables myself. I wish China would stop censoring the internet - I myself should stop keeping my subject population ignorant. I wish China would stop threatening to attack(er... bring back to the fold) Taiwan, so I must myself first stop threatening war with nations a hundredth my size.

You ask what China should do, and mention its economic reforms, etc, as proof that it can't make anyone happy.

How about not executing prisoners.
No more organ harvesting.
Stop censoring the Internet.
Stop threatening to invade people who don't want your help.

Is it really that hard to understand?

Re:Heart ?

[WNight]

China isn't perfect. The USA isn't perfect. Even Switzerland/Canada/etc - the "best in the world" states are far from perfect.

Do you know what the difference is?

China is still doing it. They aren't trying to stop.

If they wanted to get better they'd stop censoring everything. They'd realize that whatever the original solution in Tibet was, nobody gives a fuck - the Tibetans are their own people and China does not own them. Ditto the Taiwanese, etc.

Certainly I don't think China has a monopoly on evil. I've read accounts of horrific acts, but I've also read of the "Rape of Nanking", German atrocities, Rwandan and Burmese genocides, Cambodian, etc. But I'd also be violently opposed to imperial Japan, Nazi Germany, racist thugs with machetes, the Burmese Junta, the Khmer Rouge, etc. I know China has been the target of as much as it has dished out.

This isn't hard. It's not an anti-China game. Simply stop killing and oppressing people - especially in name of protecting them - and you'll stop being a murderous thug. It applies equally well to counties and individuals.

Re:Heart ?

[dalutong]

Is it really that hard to understand? Yes.

You're a perfect example of what infuriates the Chinese. Why are you so antagonistic? So us vs. them?

We torture prisoners.
We have crime syndicates.
We censored speech/ authors in the not too distant past.
We have crippled states like Cuba, and many others, for decades for totally political reasons.

China is not perfect. They certainly have issues with corruption and with the government fearing freedom of speech, etc. But it just keeps getting better and better and better. How is that such a terrible thing?

A note -- China's relationship with Taiwan has continued to improve, by the way. The guomingdang, who is now in power in Taiwan, has a policy of being very friendly with China because they realize that friendship with China is much more beneficial than antagonism. Why don't we follow their model and work past our old relationship?

Re:Heart ?

[WNight]

Misguided people? Everywhere. Me too on some things.

After all, if your government told you something how would you check otherwise. Especially if foreign news was censored if available at all.

But to intentionally misguide people? As a governmental policy?

Don't you see that the government having an active program of censorship and suppression of demonstrations, etc, is far worse than the possibility someone *might* be misguided on their own?

And what you say about Taiwan is what I've heard when I question Chinese. "Sure, not everyone wants to come back but there's a movement of those who do."

When asked why they don't simply let these people pack their bags and move back to China without a war they stumble on about bringing wayward brothers back to the fold.

Seriously. If Taiwanese want to be Chinese so much buy them a fucking plane ticket and let them choose.

While many Americans are just as misled, at least the truth is out there for them to find.

Re:Heart ?

[TerranFury]

You can't exactly use past wrongs to justify current ones.

That said, I agree that this thread has shown remarkably and disappointingly little sympathy for people with no involvement with Tibet besides living under the same government.

This is simply a human tragedy.

Re:Heart ?

[TerranFury]

you wanna play this fucking game ?

Indeed. I am sick of these kinds of arguments.

This post is off topic only insofar as all of the highly political responses in this thread are off topic.

Re:Heart ?

[dalutong]

I think we're finding a place of agreement. I don't agree with some of China's actions. I disagree with how the world paints them with unfair strokes.

I do disagree with your final statement -- that they could just stop doing it. Stability matters. It sucks that that's true, but it sucking doesn't make it any less true. What would you rather have, a steady road, with transgressions, to something that benefits everyone or a violent road that might never end? It might seem too black and white, but that's the risk. China needs to figure out how to transition as peacefully as possible from its past government to its future government. If it gave up all control, it's as likely as everything would turn to chaos as not. Chaos could take many forms. I imagine that it would be the type where corporations run the country, America-in-the-1920s style. And it could lead to an America-in-the-1930s type depression.

Development is a very delicate thing. If you give too much power to the wrong people at the wrong time, or try to take away too much power from the wrong people, you can make the situation very hostile.

It's ridiculous, are we talking about same China?

[greatwall]

I was born in China in 70's,and living in Beijing now. What you said :"reading to mao's cookbook that everyone had to memorize at some point in the past, ". It's really happened for people who was born in 50's or 60's , but it's never happened on people just like me and young generations. Don't demonize China and its people, all these things only make you ridiculous, nothing else.

Re:Heart ?

[unity100]

you cant say youve been in a repressive regime if you are priviledged in anyway.

Re:It's ridiculous, are we talking about same Chin

[unity100]

allright. so china is very much changed now. is this why they are employing 30.000 people just to monitor and censor chat rooms ? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3034023.stm what happens to people who are sent to jail on grounds of dissidence ? what happened to tienanmen people ?

Re:Heart ?

[unity100]

on the contrary, its exactly the right thing to do - create a riot in tibet now, by using this inside and internationally, install 'measures' against anything that may come up later, during the course of olympics.

Side effects on commercial flights

[zanderredux]

A friend of mine just came from London to Hong Kong and he told that his flight had to be diverted because radar and other navigational aids (sp?) in China, around the quake region, are currently off-line.

Wow.

Re:what happened ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that he had difficulty understanding your posts. I know that I did. The spelling and grammar are atrocious, and they so poorly written otherwise so as to be all but incomprehensible.

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Look up Chevron, the American oil giant, and its activities in Sudan, of which Darfur is a small part. While you're at it, read up on the Swedish oil company, Lundin, and what it has been doing and is still doing there. Then check out Chevron and Nigeria. Then read up on the bloody history of Exxon. China is just playing by the rules in the oil business. You have much to learn, grasshopper.

nor appropriate discussions here...

[iLoveYoyo]

you guys are simply bitches! While thousands of citizens in China are suffering from the disaster, you guys are discussing stupid topics... Don't you have any sense of sympathy?

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

So why don't you move out of North America, Some Guy? If you buy meat, then you are just as guilty as the butcher. Similarly, if you continue to live on land that has been genocided and ethnically cleansed, then you are also guilty of genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Re:Heart ?

[Just Some Guy]

And where is this mythical utopia where land has never violently changed hands? They won't let you own land in Antarctica, and the North Pole is currently disputed.

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Man I am sick of people throwing in MY face the sick atrocities of people from the past.

You are still guilty as long as you continue to benefit from the "sick atrocities". He who buys meat is just as guilty as the butcher. So no, you are not allowed to forget the past.

Re:Heart ?

[sydneyfong]

Sometimes I wonder too. :-(

But then if you consider that those in power today are those who went through the craze called the Cultural Revolution, you might sort of understand the paranoia...

I dunno :-/

Re:Heart ?

[iNaya]

The pointy bit is very likely to get me modded flamebait. But...

All governments do good things and bad things. The subjects of any government have these things called decisions. They are able to decide themselves whether or not they agree with what their government did.

For example, the U.S. government invaded Iraq. If all US citizens thought that invading and killing lots of people was a good thing, then I would have a low opinion on said population. This is not the case, many U.S. citizens have rallied against this action, and others agree to it on various levels.

However, when the Chinese government does something, and they get criticised, the entire population becomes defensive, and refuse to criticise their own government. This reflects poorly on their independence of mind.

Re:Heart ?

[sydneyfong]

Sure, but you still haven't answered me how you are so sure about the situation unless you've been in one yourself.

Re:Heart ?

[sydneyfong]

You're speculating again. What "measures" are you talking about?

Re:It's ridiculous, are we talking about same Chin

[sydneyfong]

Now we're talking.

If you want to make accusations about the Chinese government at least be accurate and not make up ridiculous things. If you ever wondered why people are so hostile when you're bashing China, this is probably why.

If you committed manslaughter and I charge you for rape, you plea not guilty. Don't act outraged when people deny the exaggerated things and untrue you accuse them of.

Re:Heart ?

[giorgist]

There was no real war in Iraq. Just an ass wipe running the country. It could be argued that he was there because of the US.

The US moved in and foobared the whole place. Now you are just going through the motions.

Who is to blame for the untold dead ?

Much like the topic shifts from Quake -> Tibet -> Iraq is the next logical entry.

G

Re:Heart ?

[joeman3429]

I didn't I was to blame for the war in iraq (when I was in highschool mind you), nor did I know I promote conflicts to "my ends". I didn't know I had ends :p

I think you might have a few personal issues with america that you need to work out. The country is not made of george bush clones haha

Re:Heart ?

[WNight]

History *could* just be history. But China is still censoring what people can know - this is not an acceptable act in any way and it alone in my mind would justify a war to liberate the people. North Korea is far worse, but they're headed by an insane guy. China should know better.

The people are paramount, the state is a funny flag you wave on holidays. For a country to forget this and treat the people as commodities is absolutely unforgivable. China makes some small moves towards freedom but only while taking direct physical ownership of its slave populations bodies and working to control their minds. This absolutely overwhelms any motions in the other direction.

As for relations with Taiwan this is always the refutation I hear.

"But it's okay because Taiwan is very pro-China these days and is looking to become an ally."

But what if they didn't want to be friends, as is their right? Would that still be okay? (And we both know it would not.) For what it's worth, they do have the best claim to actually being China - the mainland being under control of an abusive illegal government.

China, the state, the legal fiction drawn on a map, is an outdated concept. It's a product of a different time, and its increased fights to remain a thing of power (like the USA's actions) are not acceptable in our new global perspective.

It's not expected to end all strife, but the human rights abuses are unacceptable for a country that claims to be stable - that claims to be civilized enough to host an international event. China's own claims about its civility are why the standard is so high. It recognizes abuses but still tolerates them.

Re:Heart ?

[WNight]

I agree that the light being shown on China's actions is brighter than that in Rwanda for example, but Rwanda isn't claiming to have a stable government and be an aspiring first-world nation.

What power-vacuum would it leave if China dismantled all military installations facing Taiwan and officially recognized them in the UN?

What harm could come from stopping all internet censorship?

Perhaps if China left Tibet in a hurry people would be hurt, but the UN could come in before they left and stay to help transition to democratic self-government instead of either existing one. Has China asked the UN to relieve them of Tibet?

Maybe there's no nice quick answer that also keeps the paper tiger in control of so many people, and such a central part of world events, but if China were willing to walk away when people asked it to it might have some claim at legitimacy where it was wanted. If not it'll be torn down with the rest of last millennium's garbage and be replaced with something by and for the people.

Re:Heart ?

[WNight]

Certainly that would be disturbing. Being part German I felt the aftershocks of the holocaust - back when people thought Nazis were unique, not everywhere (Khmer Rouge, Rwanda, Russia, etc). It must be disturbing to be part of and trying to bring peace to a nation that not only suffered on this level, but has the shame of inflicting it as well.

Not having any sentimentality for the current lines on the map I'd suggest that it might be made easier if everyone was allowed to secede and form communities of their choosing rather than being forced into a larger coercive one. (Of course I think the same of many other countries. China isn't alone in its infamy - the USA is moving into the neighborhood.)

Re:what happened ?

[unity100]

its more than enough since im a turkish.

Re:Heart ?

[unity100]

yes. i grew up in the 1980-86 period in turkey after the military coup. much censorship, and strict rules.

Re:Heart ?

[unity100]

use your imagination.

Why are you respoding to something you didn't read

[hassanchop]

I wouldn't be so smug.

I don't care.

I would not be so sure that the USA itself...

That has fuck all to do with my point. Large parts of China are reminiscent of third world countries not because of neglect or failure of policy, but because of SPECIFIC ACTIONS DESIGNED TO MAKE THEM THAT WAY.

Your point is completely irrelevant.

When a man falls through the ice on a lake and drowns, you just have to feel bad for the wife and children he or she left behind

Not to be a dick, but no I don't, and I'm not going to pretend I do like you and others have been doing. YOU might, but we've already established I'm not you.

Mother Nature is some bitch

Which, again HAS FUCK ALL TO DO WITH MY POINT. Chinese government policy MADE THIS TRAGEDY WORSE. That nature is unpredictable has nothing to do with this.

Could you at least TRY to read what you're responding to this time, since you seem to have completely avoided doing so last time.

You're an idiot

[hassanchop]

Compare the US rescue effort immediately post Katrina with the Chinese one

No, because that has NOTHING to do with my point, which you clearly didn't bother trying to understand. Your entire post is proof you don't know hat you're replying to, and illustrates your ignorance and stupidity.

Washington i.e. somewhere non-black and poor

Lol, clearly you prove you're a dumbass here, and that you've never been to "Washington".

As far as I'm concerned racism is as bad as human rights abuse.

It's a good thing no one gives a fuck what you think then.

Fuck you, you should be embarrassed.

Why because I typed out a moronic rant regarding a post I am too much of an idiot to comprehend?

Oh no, wait, that was you.

Still not embarrassed either.

Re:You're an idiot

[gpuk]

People like you bore me - end of discussion.

lightweight aseembly insect for earthquake relief

[rootpassbird]

This should also be part of the future:
If you've carefully read the problems Chinese soldiers / rescue workers are facing - the rain, landslides covering roads, bad weather preventing transport vehicles etc, we need a slightly odd solution - maybe one from IronMan-like electromechanical armor.
If you've seen Starship Troopers, you'll realize that we could use "insects" like those shown there. They're about 3-4 times taller than humans. They could be *light*. And they can stand on a surface area of 4 (or 6 ) x 100 sq.cm. (100 for each "foot") Sitting atop those insects could be skilled ironman-like trained drivers who have simply one job - walking around over debris, creating least possible damage by stepping correctly and stepping on safe spots - I know it is not as easy as it sounds, but we have accomplished such feats as sending men to the Moon and probes to Mars. The second is definitely very much related to this insect-vehicle.
With six legs or eight, and no "body" except a control system box and the bare minimum electric or petroleum engine, this thing could probably help the soldiers walk over unhelpful terrain much faster - and a chain of these could deliver a lot of material over 100m to 200m distances with lesser people - every nation facing an earthquake does not have soldiers in the abundance that the Chinese have. Coming back, just imagine if some humans were thrice the normal size. We call lions and tigers "great cats". We know giant squids exist. We know giant insects and plants exist. We know giant reptiles and birds exist (or did in the past). We have cranes for heavy lifting, helicopters, all sorts of heavy machinery and movers. But we have no light, giant humans or hands, fingers or limbs in general. Moving heavy machinery into such places needs good roads.
That is precisely the problem here. Then we need to get in aircraft. They face bad weather.
Time and again, earthquake after earthquake. it's the same story - no transport, rain, storms.
So, what do we do? We need an insect that can do all this walking and send people across hilly terrain, but which can be carried around easily and can be assembled and disassembled at will.
And we need many of these to be standardized as earthquake handling tools just like we have standard fire-extinguisher training at fire drills. The Japanese are well known for this - buildings with steel beams in pillars and springs between floors, making every joint a shock absorber - not collapsible - entire buildings built like lightweight trusses.
This is not a "fresh" story but poses a series of questions before any self-respecting engineer (or, i dare say, nerd?)

Really?

[hassanchop]

it was pretty coherent...

Funny, I would think that a post that says "the only difference is" about TWO DIFFERENT THINGS would at least be somewhat incoherent.

And I'd be right, while you are not.

In the future, don't confuse "I agree" with "coherent". You won't look so stupid next time.

Re:Really?

[joeman3429]

you avoid the issue. Nitpicking doesn't get you anywhere.

To address your nitpick, he says "the only difference" twice, in reference to almost the same topic; Citizens having a different view on the government, and their government being different that the US's

I, at least, have the reading comprehension to see that the two are intertwined and would not refer to it as "incoherent tripe". After all, making a small linguistic oversight in choosing phrases doesn't render the entire thing incoherent

We're not c++ compilers! :p

Exactly what I mean

[hassanchop]

But the distinction I was making was when detailing the difference between ignorant people in the China and in the United States, which was the scope I had defined just before detailed the difference.

This is exactly what I mean, perhaps you could try that again in something resembling coherent English.

Re:Exactly what I mean

[dalutong]

I'm sorry if you were unable to understand me. I was making it clear that the term "only" was used within a defined scope. I made that clear because you seemed to think the scope was larger than it was. It's like saying, "the apartments are about the same size. The only difference is the layout." Oh, is that the ONLY difference? I'd imagine that they're in different locations, that they have different views, and that they are on different floors." No, of course it isn't the only difference. But since the scope had been limited to floor plans and square footage, it was okay to use the word "only."

And, by the way, my sentence makes sense, even if it isn't the most elegant sentence in the history of writing. The last few words are redundant. "But the distinction I was making was when detailing the difference between ignorant people in China and in the United States" probably would have sufficed. But I wanted to make it clear that the scope was limited to the ignorant people in the two countries.

Now that we've clarified that, would you like to respond to the rest of my post?

Re:Heart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

And where is this mythical utopia where land has never violently changed hands?

If that is your attitude, then you have no right to complain about China's treatment of Tibet or Taiwan -- because history of America is far, far worse.

Re:Why are you respoding to something you didn't r

[tjstork]

Could you at least TRY to read what you're responding to this time, since you seem to have completely avoided doing so last time.

Uh, what, you don't care, you don't care... blah blah blah, its all their fault because of the evil chinese government. Somehow communism causes earthquakes. I followed you. So, does that mean, that, if there is a federal disaster in your area, we don't have to send in the rescuers because it was your own dumb fault for being there. Why do you deserve to ever have your life saved?

So the answer is no, you can't.

[Anonymous Coward]

Somehow communism causes earthquakes.

I never said that, nor anything like that jackass. I said their policies MADE IT WORSE. I specifically avoided using the word "caused" just so I could lord it over people like you who read one thing and percieve it as something else entirely.

Go reread it, and come back when you realize I'm right and you're incapable of reading what is on your screen.

I followed you

No, you substituted your flawed perception for my clearly made point. CHINESE POLICY DID NOT CAUSE THE DISASTER, BUT IT DID MAKE THE OUTCOME SUBSTANTIALLY WORSE THAN IT WOULD HAVE BEEN OTHERWISE. I've said that, with no equivocation, several times.

Why are you not able to grasp it? Are you suffering from a genuine medical condition that makes what you read turn into something entirely different in your brain? This isn't hard (well for people other than you I mean) so why are you totally failing to grasp it?

Apparently you can't read a post and reply to the point within, or choose to pretend you can't when you have no refutation.

So, does that mean, that, if there is a federal disaster in your area, we don't have to send in the rescuers because it was your own dumb fault for being there.

Nope, what does that stupidity have to do with MY point that Chinese policy made this disaster worse? Right, NOTHING.

I can't say this any other way, so I guess I have to be direct.

YOU HAVE COMPLETELY FAILED TO UNDERSTAND A VERY SIMPLE POINT. THIS IS NOT A FAULT OF THE LANGUAGE USED, NOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE SENTENCES, BUT OF YOUR INTELLECT. YOU HAVE SUBSTITUTED POINTS THAT WERE NEVER MADE FOR THE VERY CLEAR, CONCISE POINTS THAT WERE MADE. YOU HAVE NOT IN ANY WAY REFUTED OR EVEN ADDRESSED MY POINTS, AND WHILE INITIALLY I THOUGHT THAT WAS BECAUSE YOU WERE CONTENTIOUS, IT NOW APPEARS YOU ARE NOT INTELLECTUALLY CAPABLE OF DOING SO.

If you ARE capable of addressing my point, please do so. If what you plan to do is more of what comprised your last two responses stupidity, save it.

Re:Heart ?

[dalutong]

Wow. You have some serious passions. I can't say I agree with many of them. I'm a big fan of stability. For the sake of the people, not the state. The Chinese peoples' lives just keeps getting better and better. A war to "liberate" them would probably mean 100 million dead, maybe more. The Communist government in China has made many mistakes. But I'm very glad China got them and not the Guomingdang. They had no concern for the poor people. Want to talk about illegitimate? Look at how they treated the natives in Taiwan. They were a dictatorship until 1988 and only recently had a non-Guomingdang leader. The Communists brought up literacy, employment, etc. If you think that having a free government is more important to people than being able to read or eat then you're living in a different world than me. Freedom is the final product of social and political maturity, not the first step. That's why American freedoms have continued to be secured. And why it took 200 years in America (before the revolution) to define an American concept of government/liberty/whatever.

Also, I'm a pragmatist. You can have all the wishes in the world, but if you aren't willing to deal with reality to achieve them, then you never will and a lot of people will suffer as you attempt to. China is a political entity. We finally conceded to that in the 70s. You can't delegitimize it. Not matter what you think of it, it still exists.

You talk about Taiwan, that they should be free to be hostile to China. That's another political reality that people just need to accept. It's the same reason people still deal with America after Iraq. No matter how much you dislike it, America is still a super power and you have to find a way to get along. It sucks, but it's a reality. Is there a bar where you should no longer accommodate it? Yes. But I don't think China is anywhere near that. You obviously do.

Re:Heart ?

[dalutong]

I accidentally closed the tab before I pressed submit. In summary:

China wants to reserve the power to do what it needs to do to maintain stability. It doesn't plan to do anything to Taiwan -- it's reputation matters much more than anything Taiwan would give it. But it doesn't want to look like it's weak on domestic issues, just in case Tibet and Xinjiang took that as a queue. Why does China want Tibet and Xinjiang? Because it maintains their concept of China and because it gives them lots of space between them and any potential enemy to the west.

What will happen in the end? Tibet will be given more autonomy, ala Hong Kong. But that's only after China has brokered some deal with the Dalai Lama and no longer worries about it declaring independence. Once China has no domestic worries, it will stop antagonizing Taiwan.

Why does it censor the internet? So it can control people who might cause instability, just like the U.S. infiltrated civil rights groups and the Black Panthers.

China will lighten up as stability ensues. But it will still require fighting to get power for some of these groups in China. No one gives up power easily... but they especially don't when they're threatened. Look at McCarthy America.

Re:Heart ?

[WNight]

I didn't say there should be a war to liberate China, I said that one is justified. The people are abused and oppressed. The government is warlike, cruel, controlling, and unwilling to change.

If you think freedoms are something that comes later, you're a victim. Life isn't something the state hands to you like a welfare check, it's something you do yourself. Are you supposed to just sit quietly your entire life because it just isn't the time for freedoms yet, but hopefully will be soon?

In ~1999-2000 I supported UN incursion into Afghanistan. Many people were being killed for religious reasons and if they had a way to leave the country they obviously would have. China isn't the only country ruining its people, but it's definitely on the list.

Essentially, I imagine life from the POV of others and plan to do for them what I'd wish someone would do for me in that situation. It's hard to imagine being an Afghani peasant, but an honest life even if hard isn't abuse. Imagine the life of a Muslim girl who got raped and is about to be killed for her crime - that's unfair and she needs to be rescued. Imagine the life of a Chinese guy - living much like I am in the western world, who then tries to speak out against the government on a forum like Slashdot. He could get shot or merely imprisoned for years. That's obscene. He needs to be rescued.

And not war, just drive UN columns through every town and take anyone who wants to leave. Fight in defense only. China might turn it into a war (slave owners are desperate to keep their stock) but that's not the goal.

China *is* a political reality. However, that doesn't mean that it needs to stay that way. Do you see the USSR anymore? Yugoslavia? What's still up in the air, is how China goes away. Peacefully, in the night, or fighting a war to keep its people slaves like a giant East Germany. Tibet is more important to the rest of the world than China - just an FYI...

Re:Heart ?

[WNight]

China censors the net to ensure stability - yeah, stability of the invalid Chinese government.

As for how the politics play out, obviously you do not understand. At this stage in world development countries are changing their role. Those that do will remain relevant, those that do not will be thrown off. If China controls Tibet, there won't be a China. Plain and simple. The Dalai Lama has more friends than China. We're trying to use words now, but if China kills anyone else the situation is going to be even more cut and dried.

Ditto Taiwan. I've tried to put this nicely... "What if Taiwan doesn't want?"

That's over.

Taiwan DOES NOT WANT. Some do, they can get to China on a plane. Others do not, and never will. Leave them alone.

Everyone knows that if China did take over Tibet or Taiwan fully that there'd be a ton of executions as the opposition was liquidated, mass resettlement, and vast civil-liberties violations. China's bloodthirsty and vindictive reputation is obvious and well documented - recently and historically. Its enemies would die, and anyone who speaks out is an enemy.

Because it maintains their concept of China ... And you think this matters in the slightest?

This is exactly why China is backed into a corner. This kind of attitude just isn't allowed. Hopefully their idea of China can be served with a plaque and some artifacts in a museum, because that's all that's likely going to be left the way this is going. Between what we carve up and give to Tibet, Taiwan, Vietnam, SKorea, and others China has abused, there won't be much left.

Re:Heart ?

[dalutong]

The stability of the Chinese government and the stability of the economy, etc for the Chinese people. If you were worried about anarchy, would you rather be free or have a strong government?

As for Tibet -- it doesn't have more friends than China. Most of the world loves China. They have a population that works hard, they aren't demanding, and they've managed development much better than most countries have.

As for Taiwan -- most do. That's why the Guomingdang is back in power. Chenshuibian was too antagonistic, and the people didn't like that.

The USSR is a good example. How did "we" dismantle it? We waited it out. Eventually, it changed from the inside. Vietnam didn't cause it. Nothing else caused it. You have to let things run their course. China's development is one of those things. (And the USSR has a much less sustainable economic model than China has, so don't hold your breath.)

And I don't understand what you mean by "those who change their roles" will survive and those that don't won't. What countries exemplify that? I'd argue that China, Brazil, Turkey, and India are doing a phenomenal job of changing their roles. They're becoming partners with people in the world. True partners, not patronizing partners as the U.S. usually is. That is what I'd say is ensuring the downfall of American preeminence. But I'd like to hear your "changing roles" theory development more.

And it does matter "in the slightest." Why does it matter? Because China says it matters. They have power, so you have to care about what they think matters. The same way kids have to care what their parents want and employees have to care what their bosses want.

What does "what we carve up" mean? Who is going to do the carving? And why does S Korea, Vietnam, Taiwan, or Tibet deserve any part of China? In life people win and lose. Should the U.S. give back all of its land to the American Indians? When do we say "this is when the period of legitimate states was?" Or is it just about ethnic populations? Should Normandy be its own country? Should China be 56 countries, one for each ethnic group? Should all of Latin America and South America be split into latino and native countries? When do you decide that a claim to an ethnicity is legitimate? Should Black America have a country? Latino-America? Chinese-American? Irish-American? Swedish-American? Different religious denominations? We'd have a world with 1000 countries. Nice plan.

Re:Heart ?

[dalutong]

I'm not a victim. But I know that people who don't have security have no freedom. If you don't have parents/friends who can help you if a new career fails, then you don't have the freedom to try a new career. And it isn't about the state handing it to you, it's about circumstances granting it to you. If you don't have a job, you don't have much freedom except to keep looking for a new job. If you're scared to walk down the street because of crime, then you don't have freedom. Name a single country/society where freedom came first. I can't think of one.

I am glad that you think you're so empathetic that you can understand what others would want. That girl could use some rescuing. Just as blacks in America could use it 45 years ago. Or openly muslim people could use it after 2001. Or "excessively" anti-american people could use it today. Could someone in China be shot for what he wrote? Yes. What's the chance of it happening? 1%. People in China don't live in perpetual fear. That's because most people are like the Afghan peasant -- they live hard lives, but nothing they do ruffles any feathers. For the 0.1% that does ruffle fears, they live in unfortunate circumstances. But I'd rather have them live fearfully than have the China that the Guomingdang ran -- one where 80% of the people were illiterate and hundreds of millions of people had no chance for advancement in life. Why? Because that situation isn't going to change. China's situation today will change. It has changed. It is changing. And it will continue to change. It's unfortunate that change takes time, but that's life.

The Chinese people don't feel enslaved. You might think they are. But try to use some of that empathy of yours. I happen to think Americans are enslaved. They're raised to fear strangers, domestically and abroad. They're raised so individualistically that they can't depend on anyone, so they live in economic and emotional fear. America has the world's second highest level of depression. They need to be liberated. But, having now lived here a few years, I understand that you can't change American culture over night. If you really care about those people, you'll find a way to slowly work towards a better life. Otherwise, you'll take them from one less than perfect reality and replace it with one that is even worse.

I don't know where you've lived in the world. I've lived in Guatemala during its conflicts in the 80s, in Taiwan and China for almost a decade in the 90s, in Turkmenistan after that and briefly in Israel and Nigeria. China is the place I'd prefer to live of those places. There is much more discussion and open-mindedness in China about where they are headed than there is in the U.S. or in Israel. Turkmenistan was autocratic, something China is not. Nigeria had such corruption that there were few opportunities for those who weren't in the right circles. And in Guatemala, at least at the time, there was no freedom because you had to fear for your life. Is China a perfect country? no. But Guatemala and Nigeria are both freer, but not countries where I would ever want to live. In Israel, and to the lesser extent in the U.S., the people are much more narrow minded and defensive. So, though they are freer, I'd rather live in China. Turkmenistan had some wonderful people, but no opportunity and a truly dictatorial government. So China isn't perfect, but it's no where near the bottom of the list. And it is nothing like East Germany or the former Soviet States (and is nothing like what it was like during that era.)

You think communism causes earthquakes!

[tjstork]

If you ARE capable of addressing my point, please do so.

I can't take you seriously. You think communism causes earthquakes!

CHINESE POLICY DID NOT CAUSE THE DISASTER, BUT IT DID MAKE THE OUTCOME SUBSTANTIALLY WORSE THAN IT WOULD HAVE BEEN OTHERWISE. I've said that, with no equivocation, several times.

Oh, this is what you are rambling about. The thing is, you made this statement without making a single supporting piece of evidence for it. Not one. All you have is an opinion that you keep shouting and you've offered nothing to back it up. In fact, when I pointed out that there are places in the USA where a nearly 8.0 richter would be just as devastating, if not worse, and you still stick to your story. After all, if the USA is democratic, and Chinese communist, then, the USA should be immune from the disaster of that scale. However, it isn't, and you know it.

You lost the debate right there, and the rest of this discussion is you just trying be a big old dumb redneck bully to get your point across.

So please, do you even have an explanation?

Why, oh why, pre-tell, does communism make an earthquake worse. Are there less troops to respond? Well, the PLA is bigger than our army. They put 50k soldiers into the disaster area on day 1 while, how many people did we put into New Orleans post Katrina? Hell, the head of China went out of his way to go to the disaster site in person on day 1, and he's been there several times, but our own President Bush couldn't even be bothered to get his rear off of AirForce 1.

The thing is, most governments, regardless of economic system, if they have any money and any organization, can cope well with disasters. In fact, totalitarian regimes are often better at disaster recovery and use disaster recovery to justify their existence, more so than the Democratic regimes. It's that, totalitarian regimes have total command and control and can marshal resources in a way that democracies can't.

Re:Avian Flu Vaccine For H5N1 Mutation Human to Hu

[WindBourne]

Well, first off, I am more than 25 years out of date, though I try to keep up (next to impossible to stay up on CS and biological sciences). IOW, I am certainly not the definitive answer on this. But with that said, I have been thinking about this. From what I have read, it is that the immune response is massive and hurts the body (since this was unexpected, it says that our immune model is still seriously lacking). The vaccine is designed to kill the virus up front. IOW, a vaccine allows the virus to be seen and an attack mounted quickly. I "think" that if the response is fast enough and the body is not overwhelmed, it will probably be ok. But it could easily go the other way.

More importantly, the thought that I had was that this will likely strike down the strong. It is those who are old, young (pre 2 y.o), sick, or depressed immune system that will be spared this. The thought that came to me is that if this is around long enough, then those that will be relatively immune to it, are those with AIDs. Not just HIV, but AIDs. Their immune response may be low enough that they can survive this. What is interesting on this, is that the virus may actually select to wipe out the majority of the strong. There will be some that are immune to it for different reasons. But the AIDs folks may be spared this. This may actually create a schism in the human population in terms of Genetics. In particular, this could create 2 different races. Those who are still long-lived (80-100) and not infected with either Avian OR HIV. The other race would have to have HIV to survive and it would start expression before age 2. These ppl would be relatively short-lived, say 40-50. My guess is that those without HIV will have NO desire to be with those with HIV. Within a few generations, the short-lives would probably not be living in the same area because of the lowered human density.

When I was in the bio field, I argued that a number of virus will not be detectable because they are beneficial to us. This could end up being just that to a short life. That is the virus is carried forward and overall appears to have no impact on us (because they would not be looking for it). I am guessing that a number of Introns ("supposedly dead regions" that are cut out) will turn up to be old viruses that have hung around. It is possible that it helped with 4D positioning of the [DR]NA, but it may be that it keeps other viruses at bay.

Re:Heart ?

[WNight]

No, really. Who likes China? Chinese people are fine. Chinese products are fine. But China, the country? The politics? It's profitable, but unsavory. But it's the people and economic system that are valuable and they'd be profitable under another political banner...

So that answers the carve-up. Whatever country those people wish to join or form. Sure, it might end up being a lot of countries, but so is Europe and the EU works fairly well. There is no age of legitimate countries - there are merely countries marking themselves as failed and ready for replacement.

As for your definition of partner, would you accept me as a business partner if I wasn't going to let you actually see the business records or newspapers/etc?

It's funny how you attribute all the success to the Chinese government, not to the people, or the world economy which they joined. Seeing as how all the government had to do was get out of the way I don't see how you can laud them.

Which brings us to power. China's extends only so far as it controls the actions, and to do so, the minds, of its people. It won't exist as a consolidated world power once the walls of censorship fall. People will realize they can run their own lives, and China will splinter. You're seeing in Tibet now that China isn't going to be allowed to use force - or to keep Tibet if it does.

This isn't China's time anymore. So far it's gotten by as a master - see it's censorship (or don't, if you're in the country), but now it's going to have to compete for the loyalties, and land, of its citizens.

Re:Heart ?

[WNight]

That girl could use some rescuing. Just as blacks in America could use it 45 years ago. Or openly muslim people could use it after 2001. [...] I happen to think Americans are enslaved. That sounds fair. After all, as you point out, we all have our own version of happy, and mine won't necessarily be yours.

Tell you what, prepare any literature you want to give to these people as preparation for their possible new life and I'll help you distribute it to them. You won't get arrested, nor will they need exit visas if they choose to go. You won't even need UN protection for your visit.

After that though, I'd like to see the same done in much of the world, from China and North Korea to Equatorial Guinea. In most places we'd probably need protection as the literature we brought would be illegal and the government would consider the people to be their property.

We'll have to leave the historical cases until we get a time machine. But they can wait.

The only thing I'd insist on is that everyone be given a choice to leave (and of course, to stay). No matter how crazy their situation looks to outsiders, it's not a problem so long as they choose it. But nobody gets to answer that for them or deprive them of a chance to honestly consider it against the alternatives.

btw, if so many Chinese citizens agree with censorship, why do you need censorship? Can't they just all not look?

Re:Heart ?

[TapeCutter]

There is a reason your post should be modded as flaimbait. You link a persons nationality to their abilty for independent thought, by definition that is racist, by observation it is false.

Re:Heart ?

[dalutong]

I will answer your question about who likes china by answering your question about why I attribute the successes of China to its government. One simple example: before the Communist government, the literacy rate in China was about 20%. Today, it is about 90%. Could China be the power it is in so many industries if it had a 20% literacy rate? No. Could a non-CCP government have done the same? Absolutely. Were there any other governments in China willing to do it? No. The Nationalists certainly didn't bother. They were made up by the upper class and only cared about the upper class.

So why do people like China, the government? Because otherwise, China wouldn't be a hell hole. It would be unstable, impossible to develop and invest in, and little more than a burden for the rest of the world.

We seem to agree on the risks of China easing its grip. You see its losing power as a good thing and inevitable. I would rather have the transition happen gracefully so that China can maintain its strength and stability through it. Some former Soviet states made the transition reasonably well. Some didn't. China is trying to learn the lessons of those who did and mimic them.

To touch on your partner comment -- I do think people would rather have China as a partner, even if it isn't going to give you all the documentation you want. For one, that's how countries run. You don't get to read the memos of how one trade department official wants to use the trade relationship that is being discussed. All you can know is what the trade agreement says -- that's true no matter where you are. The difference isn't one of openness, it is one of fairness. China is more willing to make a fair trade. America makes demands that a lot of people see as patronizing. To put the question back to you, would you rather sign an agreement with a partner who demands that you change and first do x, y, and z before they're willing to talk to you, or a partner who is willing to accept you for who you are?

Re:Heart ?

[dalutong]

I like your ideal. I just think you need to understand that countries don't magically go into the world of the ideal. I hope that someday China has the conditions you want. I just want to help China actually get there instead of hold radical beliefs that just antagonize the situation.

btw, the analogy in the U.S. is "if so many people agree with restricting drug trade, why do you need those restrictions? can't they all just not engage in the drug trade?"

Re:Heart ?

[iNaya]

By observation it is true... How many Chinese do you see criticising their own government on how they are handling Tibet? How many Chinese do you see criticising their government for their support of the regime in North Korea?

And I'm not attacking the race. The entire country has been brainwashed throughout the schooling system, that is a function of government, not of race.