"It takes a specific type of person to get Linux running and to a point where it can be productive even for nontechnical users (which is the majority of users that use computers)"
WTF???
Linux installation for dummies, PHBs and Windows sysadmins (but I repeat myself)
Stick a second hard disk in your machine (don't be a cheap SOB - the OS is free, give it some room to live)
Stick a modern distro in the dvd drive.
Boot up
click for your time zone and geographic location
Tell it that its okay to start your internet connection automagically.
click on the packages you want (or just accept the defaults if you don't know what you're doing)
set your partitions the way you want (or just accept the defaults if you don't know what you're doing)
click ok
go do other stuff while the dvd installs 5 gigs of software...
enter your root password, a user account and password.
click okay
watch as your computer boots into your new linux install.
pick the gui you wnat to use
log in
do whatever you want - your web browser(s), office suite(s), email program(s), server(s), etc., are already installed and configured.
If you can't follow that, print it out and pay some PFY* in grade 9 $20.00 to help you.
(if you don't recognize the reference, you're obviously new here and deserve to be beaten with a clue-by-four, both ways, in the snow, etc...)
"But graphic UI's are the future of computing and I think it's high time for a distribution to make it HARD to find the shell in an OS."
You can have my shell when you pry it from my cold dead hands - same as my keyboard!
Most distros come with multiple GUIs, and those GUIs are superior to anything Redmond can put out. Add that to the ability to run Windows in a window (where it belongs, if it belongs at all on your box), and mp3 and dvd installers a click away in the newest distros, 21 gigs of software free for the downloading, faster release/bugfix/update cycles... if you want a GUI, you can have your pick.
But do NOT take away my terminals. There are a lot of things that are quicker to do in a term than with a clicky interface. Have you not heard of "the right tool for the job"?
Q. Are fees involved in the logo program testing?
A. WHQL charges a nominal fee to review the testing logs that you submit. See the WHQL Testing Fee Schedules and Payment Instructions in the WHQL Policies information available at http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/whql/policies/default.mspx.
"Was the rest of the jury just as vulgar and infantile?"
Having served on a jury in a murder trial earlier this year, I'm glad I live in Canada, where juries can't talk about how they reached their decisions - not even to the judge. This sort of spouting off degrades everyone who tries to do a decent job on a jury, and undermines people's confidence in the administration of the law.
No system is perfect, but really, maybe a bit of decorum, and perhaps less incentive for people to come up with inflammatory statements that will get them into the media limelight (and maybe their 15 minutes of fame) would be a good idea.
n 2000, Jean-Guy Tremblay was convicted of two counts of assault in the violent beating of his former girlfriend and her close friend which had taken place the year before in Calgary. He was sentenced to five years in prison plus a ten-year supervision order. Tremblay took his fight against the supervision order to the Supreme Court, but the Court decided against hearing his appeal in 2005. At the time it was revealed that he had been convicted of 14 attacks on women, most of whom were his former girlfriends.
Do I dare say "typical right-to-life control freak"? Well, maybe not typical, but certainly in retrospect his motivations had more to do with control and getting back at someone who had the "audacity" to dump the creep than with any concern for any potential offspring.
It's there. Its been there for a while now. Certainly, on my box at work I don't spend any time on what would be considered "routine maintenance" if I were running Windows. Everything just runs. About the only "maintenance" I do every month is back up all the databases, and my projects directory, and create a new projects directory in projects/YYYY/MM_mmm format, copying only the newest files. (By MM_Mmm format, I mean like this 01_Jan, 02_Feb,... 09_Sep, 10_Oct, etc. This way, my directories are organized chronologically when I list them).
Of course, radical mods in the meantime are saved to either the svn server or a usb stick and taken off-site, and I usb a tarball of the current projects directory weekly. But all that is something I'd have to do no matter what platform I was running.
On my home box, the only issue has been the 4 defective Seagate drives,or I'd be running the latest and greatest. And that, with 10.3, if I pull the 3rd video card, and try to split the output on the first, it doesn't see the second, at least in Xinerama giant-screen mode. Seeing as the 3rd card is an old POS,... do I really want to continue to handicap the machine?
I've wondered that myself. I think the only solution will be to go to coins for all currency. Just don't make the $50 and $100 round - it would be too bad to lose $100 because it fell out of your hand and rolled away. Rectangles or squares with rounded edges (so they don't wear a hole in people's pockets or purses) would be okay.
"Actually, you can't do that legally. Read the EULA. Once you install Windows on a machine, it's locked to that machine and you can't transfer the license."
Nice try, but Microsoft tried that here (Canada) with a local school board, and was ultimately told to "go f$ck themselves". They claimed that the school board couldn't remove windows from machines the school board was giving away to be recycled to the needy. Nice try.
Just like those "requirements" that you put the sticker on the computer are also bogus.
Also, the EULA doesn't trump local consumer law. I bought it, separate from any hardware, I can stick it on anything I want. Just can't have multiple copies running at the same time on different machines. If I remove it from box A and stick it on box B, I'm legal.
Of course, for me this is all irrelevant - I don't do Windows any more.
"put together efficient data wrappers and algorhithms"
If there is one thing that is a certainty, its that the STL is NOT efficient.
You can't be efficient if you're trying to be too generic.
Code reuse is possible without using the STL.
The STL is not thread-safe (heck, I bought a copy of the manual for TR1, and it only devotes a couple of pages to threads, mostly saying "not thread safe - if you want thread safety, see dinkum or another vendor").
Why should I use an STL String class when all I need is something a lot less complicated for storage, concatenation, and de-allocation, that I have banged out so many times that I can do it from scratch by rote? Why should I use the STL implementation of a linked list when I can make a simpler, cleaner one that does ONLY what I want it to do, and makes it clear to anyone else that this is ALL it does, and all it needs to do?
If the STL floats your boat, fine. Just accept that its not for everyone, its not a panacea for replacing knowing how to make your own classes, its crap when it comes to threaded code, and it IS bloated.
Windows only appears to be "at the top of the server market" because of all the parked domains that Microsoft gives ISPs hardware and software to park them on, in an attempt to sway the numbers. In terms of actual work done, open source pushes way more packets than Windows ever will.
As for your WalMart analogy, people want Windows because of the Microsoft monopoly that created this scenario. If Microsoft had not resorted to illegal tactics, we would have had a host of operating systems to choose from, and wouldn't be having this conversation.
Windows isn't so much "picked" as "defaulted", specifically because of the bundling practices. If Windows is so great that it can compete on its own merits, why doesn't Microsoft propose to unbundle? Certainly, they can then squeeze more money out of those who choose to buy it retail?
Oh, right, its because in terms of code quality, security, and value, Windows can't compete except by resorting to unfair, anti-competitive tactics, which is why Microsoft doesn't want Windows to be unbundled.
"
> > If every linux user did this for just 2 people this Christmas, Microsofts' stranglehold on the market would be over in a year.
You> mean to say 365 Chistmases:)
No, one year. linux use would immediately jump to 15%, and rise from there. That's enough to break Microsoft's monopoly.
Now picture what happens just before Christmas 2008 if half the new adopters, plus everyone who participated originally, did it again - 30% market share in just over a year.
"If you're writing C++ without STL containers for data storage then you're doing it wrong. Period."
Wrong. Anyone proficient in c++ should be able to write their own container classes, minus the bloat that the STL brings.
Also, the standard STL isn't thread-aware. Having to put STL_LOCK() and STL_UNLOCK() all over your code, and hoping you don't end up with a resource deadlock, sucks.
The again, I was writing c++ classes before the stl existed, so what do I know...
pretty much a few clicks to install both linux and 21 gigs of user software. No extra disks with drivers. No asking about driver disks for anything. Oh, it DID ask if it could connect to the internet (unlike Windws, which phones home on a regular basis, whether you want it to or not), found and set up my connection automatically, and gave me a selection of add-on software repositories I could use. When I went into the monitor setup after all was installed, it asked me if I wanted to enable 3d acceleration, which it did, no problems.
If I had wanted to run Windows, there's a clicky to set up one or more virtual machines, so I can run Windows where it belongs - in a Window.
Microsoft is nowhere near that in terms of setup and install. Let us know when they fix the install software/reboot problem - *that* will be news - that Windows has actually caught up with linux in one area...
Please read what I wrote - open source has been proven to beat Microsofts' servers in terms of quality, TCO, initial price, and performance.
That Microsoft is able to still push through to SMBs is only because of their vendor lockin and customer inertai. It has zero to do with the points I make, and is entirely due to their ability to get a lock on the market in the first place via bundling.
"Microsoft never robed me, nor did it point a gun at me"
On the contrary - if you have ever bought a machine with a legit copy of Windows, or a legit copy of Windows by itself, you HAVE been robbed by Microsoft. The courts have already determined that, so stop with the nonsense of trying to rewrite history.
"Why punish the OEM who are an disinterested third parties? Harming OEMs to get back at Microsoft is like dropping a nuke on Redmond a lot a people who have nothing to do with Microsoft will get hurt.
"
Microsoft and the OEMs wre both guilty of illegal conduct - Microsoft for forcing OEMs to not sell competing products, and the OEMs for giving in.
The reason that the OEMs weren't dragged into any lawsuits was because they really didn't have a choice - agree or go bankrupt. They were victims as well.
Nobody is punishing the OEMs by forcing them to unbundle Windows - they're actually protecting OEMs and consumers from a recurrence of what has already happened.
The proper way to handle it would have been to simply fine Microsoft the full amount of their revenue for every illegal deal. That might have pushed them into bankruptcy, but you know something? Don't do the crime if you can't do the time should apply to them, just like it does to you or me.
Selling multiple versions of a game console: Really Realllly confusing for consumers... because like.. some come with big hard drives and some with smaller hard drives and some with even smaller memory capacity yet! The choices Oh my! The confusion! What to buy!?!
But selling multiple operating systems for your computer: Consumers are just itchin' to make a choice on an operating system. A word they don't even know the meaning or ramifications of.
Yep that makes perfect sense to me too.
Just so we're clear... isn't Microsoft doing the same thing? Vista home. Vista business. Vista media centr. Vista premium Vista whatever.
Its easy enough to explain to the consumer when it comes to Microsoft or linux: Do you want to continue to have crappy software from the same people who have screwed you over in the past, or do you want to have better-quality software that is being contributed to by companies and individuals all over the world, who have more coders than Microsoft has employees, and a better record of bug fixing? Oh, and it costs less...
No strawman argument here... I'll make it easy for you, since you've obviously drunk the purple kool-aid
"The cost of an OEM Windows license is a large portion of the cost of a new machine, compared to any time in the past."
Its still true...
... is also still true.
For the last 25 yeas, the cost of hardware has gone down every decade by 75%, while its capabilities hae gone up. If Windows had kept pace, it should be priced around $3 - $6.00 a copy retail, or about a buck and a quarter OEM.
> "Unbundling won't happen - when sheeple buy a computer, they expect to have a fully functional thing that can surf the "Interweb" and "process a word", and "sheet a spread".
Case in point: I encountered an irate phone caller because the version of Microsoft Office with her mac was only a trial version. She didn't like this, and ended up filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau in spite of the fact that the computer in question clearly stated that it came with a trial version.
... and linux does all that out of the box. All the distros I've tested automatically discovered and configured my internet connection, and are certainly more "fully functional" than any box that comes with Windows pre-installed. Multiple office suites, and now with click-and-install mp3 and dvd players, virtual machines (so you can run Windows where it belongs - in a window), etc.
Slashdot Mirror
"It takes a specific type of person to get Linux running and to a point where it can be productive even for nontechnical users (which is the majority of users that use computers)"
WTF???
Linux installation for dummies, PHBs and Windows sysadmins (but I repeat myself)
If you can't follow that, print it out and pay some PFY* in grade 9 $20.00 to help you.
(if you don't recognize the reference, you're obviously new here and deserve to be beaten with a clue-by-four, both ways, in the snow, etc...)
"But graphic UI's are the future of computing and I think it's high time for a distribution to make it HARD to find the shell in an OS."
You can have my shell when you pry it from my cold dead hands - same as my keyboard!
Most distros come with multiple GUIs, and those GUIs are superior to anything Redmond can put out. Add that to the ability to run Windows in a window (where it belongs, if it belongs at all on your box), and mp3 and dvd installers a click away in the newest distros, 21 gigs of software free for the downloading, faster release/bugfix/update cycles ... if you want a GUI, you can have your pick.
But do NOT take away my terminals. There are a lot of things that are quicker to do in a term than with a clicky interface. Have you not heard of "the right tool for the job"?
Microsoft disagrees
From microsoft's own site: http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/winlogo/VistaLogofaq.mspx
"Was the rest of the jury just as vulgar and infantile?"
Having served on a jury in a murder trial earlier this year, I'm glad I live in Canada, where juries can't talk about how they reached their decisions - not even to the judge. This sort of spouting off degrades everyone who tries to do a decent job on a jury, and undermines people's confidence in the administration of the law.
No system is perfect, but really, maybe a bit of decorum, and perhaps less incentive for people to come up with inflammatory statements that will get them into the media limelight (and maybe their 15 minutes of fame) would be a good idea.
You can name the guy. Dr. Henry Morgentaler. Over and above the caes cited in the previous link, he was also tried 3 times for running abortion clinics, and 3 times, jurors refused to convict. This was around the same time that Jean-guy Trmblay tried to prevent his girlfriend (Chantale Daigle) from getting an abortion. Turns out the creep was a control freak, and liked using his fists. Here's what happened 10 years later.
Do I dare say "typical right-to-life control freak"? Well, maybe not typical, but certainly in retrospect his motivations had more to do with control and getting back at someone who had the "audacity" to dump the creep than with any concern for any potential offspring.
"but for free they'll just blindly stamp the WHQL stamp on it based on whatever shonky test results you can give them."
No ... they still charge a fee each time you submit test results.
Windows OEM still requires both a valid license and activation, as well as 3rd-party tools if you want to "grow" the image onto a larger partition.
It's there. Its been there for a while now. Certainly, on my box at work I don't spend any time on what would be considered "routine maintenance" if I were running Windows. Everything just runs. About the only "maintenance" I do every month is back up all the databases, and my projects directory, and create a new projects directory in projects/YYYY/MM_mmm format, copying only the newest files. (By MM_Mmm format, I mean like this 01_Jan, 02_Feb, ... 09_Sep, 10_Oct, etc. This way, my directories are organized chronologically when I list them).
Of course, radical mods in the meantime are saved to either the svn server or a usb stick and taken off-site, and I usb a tarball of the current projects directory weekly. But all that is something I'd have to do no matter what platform I was running.
On my home box, the only issue has been the 4 defective Seagate drives,or I'd be running the latest and greatest. And that, with 10.3, if I pull the 3rd video card, and try to split the output on the first, it doesn't see the second, at least in Xinerama giant-screen mode. Seeing as the 3rd card is an old POS, ... do I really want to continue to handicap the machine?
It really is "ready for the masses."
I've wondered that myself. I think the only solution will be to go to coins for all currency. Just don't make the $50 and $100 round - it would be too bad to lose $100 because it fell out of your hand and rolled away. Rectangles or squares with rounded edges (so they don't wear a hole in people's pockets or purses) would be okay.
"Actually, you can't do that legally. Read the EULA. Once you install Windows on a machine, it's locked to that machine and you can't transfer the license."
Nice try, but Microsoft tried that here (Canada) with a local school board, and was ultimately told to "go f$ck themselves". They claimed that the school board couldn't remove windows from machines the school board was giving away to be recycled to the needy. Nice try.
Just like those "requirements" that you put the sticker on the computer are also bogus.
Also, the EULA doesn't trump local consumer law. I bought it, separate from any hardware, I can stick it on anything I want. Just can't have multiple copies running at the same time on different machines. If I remove it from box A and stick it on box B, I'm legal.
Of course, for me this is all irrelevant - I don't do Windows any more.
"2001 is calling, they say MS fixed the problem."
they certainly hadn't fixed the "reboot after installing major packages/upgrades/drivers" bit by 2001.
"put together efficient data wrappers and algorhithms"
If there is one thing that is a certainty, its that the STL is NOT efficient.
You can't be efficient if you're trying to be too generic.
Code reuse is possible without using the STL.
The STL is not thread-safe (heck, I bought a copy of the manual for TR1, and it only devotes a couple of pages to threads, mostly saying "not thread safe - if you want thread safety, see dinkum or another vendor").
Why should I use an STL String class when all I need is something a lot less complicated for storage, concatenation, and de-allocation, that I have banged out so many times that I can do it from scratch by rote? Why should I use the STL implementation of a linked list when I can make a simpler, cleaner one that does ONLY what I want it to do, and makes it clear to anyone else that this is ALL it does, and all it needs to do?
If the STL floats your boat, fine. Just accept that its not for everyone, its not a panacea for replacing knowing how to make your own classes, its crap when it comes to threaded code, and it IS bloated.
> "you can use ^W to nuke the entire word instead of ^H to delete each letter. "
I know (bash is my default shell), but it ruins the effect ...
You can't just pay in pennies.
Amounts that are considered legal tender in Canada (which means they can't be refused):
So no, they're not obligated to take a ton of pennies.
So let them run their old copy of Windows in a VM instead of shelling out for Windows when all they want/need is newer hardware.
Actually, you're the one out of the loop.
Windows only appears to be "at the top of the server market" because of all the parked domains that Microsoft gives ISPs hardware and software to park them on, in an attempt to sway the numbers. In terms of actual work done, open source pushes way more packets than Windows ever will.
As for your WalMart analogy, people want Windows because of the Microsoft monopoly that created this scenario. If Microsoft had not resorted to illegal tactics, we would have had a host of operating systems to choose from, and wouldn't be having this conversation.
Windows isn't so much "picked" as "defaulted", specifically because of the bundling practices. If Windows is so great that it can compete on its own merits, why doesn't Microsoft propose to unbundle? Certainly, they can then squeeze more money out of those who choose to buy it retail?
Oh, right, its because in terms of code quality, security, and value, Windows can't compete except by resorting to unfair, anti-competitive tactics, which is why Microsoft doesn't want Windows to be unbundled.
" > > If every linux user did this for just 2 people this Christmas, Microsofts' stranglehold on the market would be over in a year.
You> mean to say 365 Chistmases :)
No, one year. linux use would immediately jump to 15%, and rise from there. That's enough to break Microsoft's monopoly.
Now picture what happens just before Christmas 2008 if half the new adopters, plus everyone who participated originally, did it again - 30% market share in just over a year.
Of course that won't happen ... but it could.
"If you're writing C++ without STL containers for data storage then you're doing it wrong. Period."
Wrong. Anyone proficient in c++ should be able to write their own container classes, minus the bloat that the STL brings. Also, the standard STL isn't thread-aware. Having to put STL_LOCK() and STL_UNLOCK() all over your code, and hoping you don't end up with a resource deadlock, sucks.
The again, I was writing c++ classes before the stl existed, so what do I know ...
pretty much a few clicks to install both linux and 21 gigs of user software. No extra disks with drivers. No asking about driver disks for anything. Oh, it DID ask if it could connect to the internet (unlike Windws, which phones home on a regular basis, whether you want it to or not), found and set up my connection automatically, and gave me a selection of add-on software repositories I could use. When I went into the monitor setup after all was installed, it asked me if I wanted to enable 3d acceleration, which it did, no problems.
If I had wanted to run Windows, there's a clicky to set up one or more virtual machines, so I can run Windows where it belongs - in a Window.
Microsoft is nowhere near that in terms of setup and install. Let us know when they fix the install software/reboot problem - *that* will be news - that Windows has actually caught up with linux in one area ...
Please read what I wrote - open source has been proven to beat Microsofts' servers in terms of quality, TCO, initial price, and performance.
That Microsoft is able to still push through to SMBs is only because of their vendor lockin and customer inertai. It has zero to do with the points I make, and is entirely due to their ability to get a lock on the market in the first place via bundling.
On the contrary - if you have ever bought a machine with a legit copy of Windows, or a legit copy of Windows by itself, you HAVE been robbed by Microsoft. The courts have already determined that, so stop with the nonsense of trying to rewrite history.
"Why punish the OEM who are an disinterested third parties? Harming OEMs to get back at Microsoft is like dropping a nuke on Redmond a lot a people who have nothing to do with Microsoft will get hurt. "
Microsoft and the OEMs wre both guilty of illegal conduct - Microsoft for forcing OEMs to not sell competing products, and the OEMs for giving in. The reason that the OEMs weren't dragged into any lawsuits was because they really didn't have a choice - agree or go bankrupt. They were victims as well.
Nobody is punishing the OEMs by forcing them to unbundle Windows - they're actually protecting OEMs and consumers from a recurrence of what has already happened.
The proper way to handle it would have been to simply fine Microsoft the full amount of their revenue for every illegal deal. That might have pushed them into bankruptcy, but you know something? Don't do the crime if you can't do the time should apply to them, just like it does to you or me.
"Just so we're clear:
Selling multiple versions of a game console: Really Realllly confusing for consumers... because like.. some come with big hard drives and some with smaller hard drives and some with even smaller memory capacity yet! The choices Oh my! The confusion! What to buy!?!
But selling multiple operating systems for your computer: Consumers are just itchin' to make a choice on an operating system. A word they don't even know the meaning or ramifications of.
Yep that makes perfect sense to me too.
Just so we're clear ... isn't Microsoft doing the same thing? Vista home. Vista business. Vista media centr. Vista premium Vista whatever.
Its easy enough to explain to the consumer when it comes to Microsoft or linux: Do you want to continue to have crappy software from the same people who have screwed you over in the past, or do you want to have better-quality software that is being contributed to by companies and individuals all over the world, who have more coders than Microsoft has employees, and a better record of bug fixing? Oh, and it costs less ...
No strawman argument here ... I'll make it easy for you, since you've obviously drunk the purple kool-aid
"The cost of an OEM Windows license is a large portion of the cost of a new machine, compared to any time in the past." Its still true ...
For the last 25 yeas, the cost of hardware has gone down every decade by 75%, while its capabilities hae gone up. If Windows had kept pace, it should be priced around $3 - $6.00 a copy retail, or about a buck and a quarter OEM.
> "Unbundling won't happen - when sheeple buy a computer, they expect to have a fully functional thing that can surf the "Interweb" and "process a word", and "sheet a spread".
Case in point: I encountered an irate phone caller because the version of Microsoft Office with her mac was only a trial version. She didn't like this, and ended up filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau in spite of the fact that the computer in question clearly stated that it came with a trial version.
Unbundling will happen, within the next 2 years.
Thanks for pointing that out. Windows is also losing market share in the most visible embedded market around - cell phones.