Please! Spare us the racist pap. Unless you're working for the Klan, that's not helping anybody's cause either.
Oh, I'm sorry, for a second there I thought the millions of people who invade the states, canada, the UK, etc in undocumented fashions DIDN'T have an education. Don't tell me that your typical mexican import is just as qualified to be, say, a cryptographer as I am. Give me a break. Granted, they're not working in that line of work, enough of them are in things like construction, or factory work where some training is probably required.
As for the "right to travel" that isn't a basic human right recognized by any country on this planet. Sure, they grant the right of travel within their borders [e.g. from one province to another, from one state to another, etc] but that's about it.
It's important to keep tabs on who is in your country for many reasons, least of all is your own damn safety. Suppose, you illegally enter Canada, and get lost/hurt/abducted/etc. How is the Canadian government supposed to notify your family if they don't even know you're here? Not only that, but the amount of people our services can support is limited and must be accounted for. If millions of undocumented people flooded say Toronto or Ottawa in a single year, the cities would be instantly crippled.
As for propping up the Mexican government, I have no real idea what the USA's involvement is. All I'm gonna say is that the Mexicans themselves could stand for a little more responsibility out of their government.
Remember, there was a time when Americans were British.
Actually since "Cannuck" isn't a real word you can spell it however you damn well please. And in fact, I've seen both. Granted canuck is the more popular way to spell it, the point is it doesn't matter.
And anyways, as a fellow canuck [just assuming] you should have apologized for me misspelling the word. That is, afterall, the Canadian way.
While I agree things could be better... you have no right to visit another country unless prescribed by treaty [e.g. EU, maybe even nafta]. For example, if I were to visit Romania [hey, they got wicked tuica] they probably could arbitrarily deny my entry without any legal recourse whatsoever. I don't have a right to visit the country.
Now it's stupid and bad for the economy to outright deny visitors/tourists/etc. Point being though it isn't a right. If anyone should fight for it, it should be the citizens. However, the states like most fairly well off countries [e.g. Canada, UK, France, etc] are plagued by undocumented, often unqualified labour forces. So there is a fairly strong sentiment against work visas in the first place.
Not saying it's right, it's just the way things are. Of course it doesn't help peoples causes when they encourage the activity. Maybe, if, for example, Mexico wasn't so back-asswards and corrupt they would put their foot down on illegals who get deported back to Mexico [e.g. jail time or something]. Similar for others like India, who routinely host scores of unqualified staff [re: call centers] that plague western civilization...
My stamp from the UK explicitly states "Employment and Recourse to public funds prohibited." I think that means I can't get paid to work there... fairly certain:-)
And for the record, the UK customs is just as nasty as the americans. Worse yet because usually I'm so f'ing tired I just don't want to deal with them. At least in the states I'm so close to home that I can put up with their asinine questions and all that.Though to be fair I've also had just as much trouble with Canadian customs [and I'm a cannuck!].
I once did a trip in 2006 to the states [actually to AMD in San Jose] on nothing more than my drivers license [I was renewing my passport]. No trouble on the way there, but on the way back the folk at the San Jose airport didn't want to let me get a boarding card [I asked them how they thought I made it to San Jose...]. Then when I landed in Toronto, they were asking to see proof of citizenship [which a driver licenses is not]. Then they asked about 20 more questions [e.g. where were you born, how long were you in the states, etc...].
It helps if you travel a lot already. Hell, when I drive to the states [for pleasure] I tell them I'm on a "skeeball run" which sadly enough is the actual truth [Watertown, NY has a mall called "Salmon Run" which has a decent arcade]. They stopped asking after the fifth or so trip. Now they just glance in the car and wave me on:-)
I know the feeling. I was employee #5 of AMD Canada [oddly enough based in San Jose California]. Needless to say their Canadian operations are really small. Mostly just sales folk. I think I was the only software engineer.
Had a lot of messed up hiring dealings since the HR staff is based in the states. They actually had Canadian forms though for things like taxes though. But occasionally I'd be asked for my SSN or be offered a W-2...:-)
Many people come to the states legally each day, let alone year. If he filled the paperwork properly like he was supposed to, this wouldn't be an issue.
Arguing whether their should even be such draconian measures is a different issue altogether.
For example, suppose I get busted for selling pot in the states. Sure we can sit and talk about the need for said laws, but currently it is on the books, and that's all that matters as far as the law is concerned.
As others pointed out, he could have given the talk via the web [e.g. teleconference] which would have been perfectly legal [oddly enough]. He could have forfeited his pay, he could have filed the correct paperwork, etc, etc...
Bingo. As asinine as the G is, if he had actually lined up his ducks in a row, he'd probably be on his way to the con now.
I actually had an experience like that. I was touring to Broadcom to do a little side project for them. The idea was that the people who wanted the work done were in San Diego, but they would pay me through the Canadian branch of Broadcom. I'd go there to get the specs, then head home to do the work.
I told the customs dude [in Toronto no less] that I was "heading to the states for work." It was at 3am [6am flight] and I wasn't thinking right. The guy asked me about a visa and I said I didn't have one. Then he got all uppity about stealing jobs and all that. I told him that I was doing the work in Canada, but I had to meet the people first. I had to do a secondary check and had my fingerprints taken/etc. Was really unnerving. If I just told them I was heading there for a business meeting it would have been a simple process...
Anyways, I agree, whenever the subject of "work" comes up around US customs you have to make sure you have your wording correct. Otherwise they just assume you're a job thieving illegal alien and will get all uppity.
... arrg... The federal MPs are made up of elected officials from ALL OVER CANADA. I'm so sick and tired of "Ottawa" getting the wrap for what the federal government does.
If you hate the way things are look at what your MPs are doing.
Because I've been to Ireland, UK, France, Romania, and Switzerland.
In all but France have I been told that working is strictly forbidden. So unless he lived in a country that had a treaty, he probably wouldn't be able to work there [hence the non-EU comment].
If he just forfeited his pay it would have been fine.
And yes, I agree that foreign workers are screwed over. Consider this, Cannucks have to go through the same shit that other foreigners have to work in the states.
but... I can drive to the states in 40 minutes. Hell that's shorter than some folks commutes!!! Cannucks [and yankees] should be able to work in opposite countries with much less hassle. Granted there are TN-1s but that's only for temp work [they're not supposed to be renewed].
I've been to several IACR conferences and Toorcon multiple times. I was never paid to speak at Toorcon, and IACR speakers are not paid either.
And you *can* give a free talk in the states without a work visa. So long as you're not getting paid [or staying longer than the tourist visa allows] they don't care.
So if he just forfeited his pay, he could have done the talk easily. Another way that is legal is to have someone else buy the airfare [if that's the hangup]. afaik it's not illegal to be flown to a conference to give an otherwise free talk, it's probably borderline illegal though, but he could easily and truthfully respond he's not getting paid:-) [receiving a gift en lieu of pay is still considered consideration...]
Anyways,... not all conferences have paid speakers, and even the ones that do, still have unpaid sessions/tracks.
Yeah, except you can't take paid speaking engagements up here without a work visa either.
He wasn't denied because the session was on security, he was denied because he's NOT ALLOWED TO WORK THERE without proper approval.
He would have been deported from Canada for the exact same reason had he told them the same story. In fact, if he wasn't a member of the EU he would have also been deported from Ireland, the UK, Spain, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, etc, etc, etc....
So while Canada is cool and all [hey I live in Ottawa], it's not a safe haven for illegal aliens either. They have to file fraudulent "refugee" claims like the rest of the population of Toronto.
Or just lie and say it's free. Honestly, if you're only gonna be there a few days it probably won't hurt the economy ANY to just lie. Of course don't get caught:-)
Don't shop there. Convince others to do the same. I mean by this logic, every store that opens its doors in the states must flourish and last forever. Sadly that isn't the truth. Walmart prevails because people whine and bitch and shop there anyways.
Either don't shop there, or change labour laws to include more reasonable minimum wages for adults, language requirements, etc...
A passport is required to get a TOURIST visa, which does not allow you to take up residence or work. You're right, they don't want his "kind" there. That would be the illegal alien kind.
It's one thing to argue the benefits of controlling the migration of labour, but it's not rational to assume this is because he's a "hacker" [oooh spooky!]. Most of the time when I told the US customs that I was going to give talks at Toorcon [or whatever] they didn't even know what cryptography was, let alone that it was all dangerous and "against the interests of the united states government." Mostly they just asked if I was paid, once I said it was a free presentation they told me to fuck off and board my plane.
Oh fuck off. It's not some big conspiracy. You need a visa to ***WORK*** in the states as a non citizen. He didn't have one and thus was denied entry. I'm sure if I flew over to Germany they'd be all cool with me [a non-citizen/resident] just taking up any old job.
Actually, the only EU country I know of that lets Cannucks work there [without a visa] is France. Which oddly enough is more than what the UK permits and we're supposed to be all family or something...
yeah I failed there. Teach me to not proof my damn/. posts. Oh woe is me, for I have failed humanity. Oh wait, shut up. I've spent a good deal of today writing f'ing major scales [yeah music], and naming degrees... English is not active...
oh as for "god" fuck that idea, I'll capitalize that "proper" noun when the dude impresses me properly.
If you just run a damn nfs/samba server on your linux box you can access your files from pretty much any platform. I have my xbox fetching files off my Gentoo Linux box just fine and they're completely different OSes.
Probably a combination of incompetence and payoffs. Just because you have "IT staff" doesn't mean they really know shit all about software or how to build a workstation/server/etc. Way more people look at an MCSE as "advanced education" than simply using google to find OSS alternatives that work.
And in the end, where are the parents not pushing back?
Of course when I went to high school, teachers only accepted work in plain old "dead tree" format. And were not talking about the 60s or 70s, but the 90s. Sure at home I might have had Wordpad [god bless...] at my disposal, but the teacher wouldn't except work in that format, so I'd have to print it off at home or school.
Why can't kids just render their work in PDF format [and same for the prof], then let the creator worry about what tool they'll use. For science type classes, all you really need is to make sure the student includes all the calculations/observations to prove that they did the work.
Presumably if you had access to the records, you had access to the backups. So it's kinda a moot point. I get what you're saying. This is like the argument of "backup vs. raid-1". And it makes sense.
However, there is no reason why the 2nd data centre has to only have live data. Why couldn't it store deltas as well?
Slashdot Mirror
Please! Spare us the racist pap. Unless you're working for the Klan, that's not helping anybody's cause either.
Oh, I'm sorry, for a second there I thought the millions of people who invade the states, canada, the UK, etc in undocumented fashions DIDN'T have an education. Don't tell me that your typical mexican import is just as qualified to be, say, a cryptographer as I am. Give me a break. Granted, they're not working in that line of work, enough of them are in things like construction, or factory work where some training is probably required.
As for the "right to travel" that isn't a basic human right recognized by any country on this planet. Sure, they grant the right of travel within their borders [e.g. from one province to another, from one state to another, etc] but that's about it.
It's important to keep tabs on who is in your country for many reasons, least of all is your own damn safety. Suppose, you illegally enter Canada, and get lost/hurt/abducted/etc. How is the Canadian government supposed to notify your family if they don't even know you're here? Not only that, but the amount of people our services can support is limited and must be accounted for. If millions of undocumented people flooded say Toronto or Ottawa in a single year, the cities would be instantly crippled.
As for propping up the Mexican government, I have no real idea what the USA's involvement is. All I'm gonna say is that the Mexicans themselves could stand for a little more responsibility out of their government.
Remember, there was a time when Americans were British.
Actually since "Cannuck" isn't a real word you can spell it however you damn well please. And in fact, I've seen both. Granted canuck is the more popular way to spell it, the point is it doesn't matter.
And anyways, as a fellow canuck [just assuming] you should have apologized for me misspelling the word. That is, afterall, the Canadian way.
How would you get arrested for returning their money? It's not illegal for you to receive an ATM screw up. It's illegal for you to keep it.
And if the machine gave me too much money I'd just cut the line and talk to the manager right away. Like heck I would wait in line...
Tom
While I agree things could be better ... you have no right to visit another country unless prescribed by treaty [e.g. EU, maybe even nafta]. For example, if I were to visit Romania [hey, they got wicked tuica] they probably could arbitrarily deny my entry without any legal recourse whatsoever. I don't have a right to visit the country.
Now it's stupid and bad for the economy to outright deny visitors/tourists/etc. Point being though it isn't a right. If anyone should fight for it, it should be the citizens. However, the states like most fairly well off countries [e.g. Canada, UK, France, etc] are plagued by undocumented, often unqualified labour forces. So there is a fairly strong sentiment against work visas in the first place.
Not saying it's right, it's just the way things are. Of course it doesn't help peoples causes when they encourage the activity. Maybe, if, for example, Mexico wasn't so back-asswards and corrupt they would put their foot down on illegals who get deported back to Mexico [e.g. jail time or something]. Similar for others like India, who routinely host scores of unqualified staff [re: call centers] that plague western civilization...
Tom
Um, only if it's not for work.
:-)
...]. Then when I landed in Toronto, they were asking to see proof of citizenship [which a driver licenses is not]. Then they asked about 20 more questions [e.g. where were you born, how long were you in the states, etc...].
My stamp from the UK explicitly states "Employment and Recourse to public funds prohibited." I think that means I can't get paid to work there... fairly certain
And for the record, the UK customs is just as nasty as the americans. Worse yet because usually I'm so f'ing tired I just don't want to deal with them. At least in the states I'm so close to home that I can put up with their asinine questions and all that.Though to be fair I've also had just as much trouble with Canadian customs [and I'm a cannuck!].
I once did a trip in 2006 to the states [actually to AMD in San Jose] on nothing more than my drivers license [I was renewing my passport]. No trouble on the way there, but on the way back the folk at the San Jose airport didn't want to let me get a boarding card [I asked them how they thought I made it to San Jose
Tom
It helps if you travel a lot already. Hell, when I drive to the states [for pleasure] I tell them I'm on a "skeeball run" which sadly enough is the actual truth [Watertown, NY has a mall called "Salmon Run" which has a decent arcade]. They stopped asking after the fifth or so trip. Now they just glance in the car and wave me on :-)
Tom
I know the feeling. I was employee #5 of AMD Canada [oddly enough based in San Jose California]. Needless to say their Canadian operations are really small. Mostly just sales folk. I think I was the only software engineer.
... :-)
Had a lot of messed up hiring dealings since the HR staff is based in the states. They actually had Canadian forms though for things like taxes though. But occasionally I'd be asked for my SSN or be offered a W-2
Tom
Many people come to the states legally each day, let alone year. If he filled the paperwork properly like he was supposed to, this wouldn't be an issue.
Arguing whether their should even be such draconian measures is a different issue altogether.
For example, suppose I get busted for selling pot in the states. Sure we can sit and talk about the need for said laws, but currently it is on the books, and that's all that matters as far as the law is concerned.
As others pointed out, he could have given the talk via the web [e.g. teleconference] which would have been perfectly legal [oddly enough]. He could have forfeited his pay, he could have filed the correct paperwork, etc, etc...
Tom
Bingo. As asinine as the G is, if he had actually lined up his ducks in a row, he'd probably be on his way to the con now.
I actually had an experience like that. I was touring to Broadcom to do a little side project for them. The idea was that the people who wanted the work done were in San Diego, but they would pay me through the Canadian branch of Broadcom. I'd go there to get the specs, then head home to do the work.
I told the customs dude [in Toronto no less] that I was "heading to the states for work." It was at 3am [6am flight] and I wasn't thinking right. The guy asked me about a visa and I said I didn't have one. Then he got all uppity about stealing jobs and all that. I told him that I was doing the work in Canada, but I had to meet the people first. I had to do a secondary check and had my fingerprints taken/etc. Was really unnerving. If I just told them I was heading there for a business meeting it would have been a simple process...
Anyways, I agree, whenever the subject of "work" comes up around US customs you have to make sure you have your wording correct. Otherwise they just assume you're a job thieving illegal alien and will get all uppity.
Tom
yes, and Open Office is free. Last time *I* checked $0 was less than >$0.
Next?
... arrg ... The federal MPs are made up of elected officials from ALL OVER CANADA. I'm so sick and tired of "Ottawa" getting the wrap for what the federal government does.
If you hate the way things are look at what your MPs are doing.
Because I've been to Ireland, UK, France, Romania, and Switzerland.
In all but France have I been told that working is strictly forbidden. So unless he lived in a country that had a treaty, he probably wouldn't be able to work there [hence the non-EU comment].
Tom
If he just forfeited his pay it would have been fine.
... I can drive to the states in 40 minutes. Hell that's shorter than some folks commutes!!! Cannucks [and yankees] should be able to work in opposite countries with much less hassle. Granted there are TN-1s but that's only for temp work [they're not supposed to be renewed].
And yes, I agree that foreign workers are screwed over. Consider this, Cannucks have to go through the same shit that other foreigners have to work in the states.
but
Tom
I've been to several IACR conferences and Toorcon multiple times. I was never paid to speak at Toorcon, and IACR speakers are not paid either.
:-) [receiving a gift en lieu of pay is still considered consideration...]
... not all conferences have paid speakers, and even the ones that do, still have unpaid sessions/tracks.
And you *can* give a free talk in the states without a work visa. So long as you're not getting paid [or staying longer than the tourist visa allows] they don't care.
So if he just forfeited his pay, he could have done the talk easily. Another way that is legal is to have someone else buy the airfare [if that's the hangup]. afaik it's not illegal to be flown to a conference to give an otherwise free talk, it's probably borderline illegal though, but he could easily and truthfully respond he's not getting paid
Anyways,
Yeah, except you can't take paid speaking engagements up here without a work visa either.
He wasn't denied because the session was on security, he was denied because he's NOT ALLOWED TO WORK THERE without proper approval.
He would have been deported from Canada for the exact same reason had he told them the same story. In fact, if he wasn't a member of the EU he would have also been deported from Ireland, the UK, Spain, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, etc, etc, etc....
So while Canada is cool and all [hey I live in Ottawa], it's not a safe haven for illegal aliens either. They have to file fraudulent "refugee" claims like the rest of the population of Toronto.
Or just lie and say it's free. Honestly, if you're only gonna be there a few days it probably won't hurt the economy ANY to just lie. Of course don't get caught :-)
How about let the students use the OSS, and get the school to buy Acrobat?
Once they realize that's asinine, get the school to use OSS too and problem is solved.
Don't shop there. Convince others to do the same. I mean by this logic, every store that opens its doors in the states must flourish and last forever. Sadly that isn't the truth. Walmart prevails because people whine and bitch and shop there anyways.
Either don't shop there, or change labour laws to include more reasonable minimum wages for adults, language requirements, etc...
Tom
A passport is required to get a TOURIST visa, which does not allow you to take up residence or work. You're right, they don't want his "kind" there. That would be the illegal alien kind.
It's one thing to argue the benefits of controlling the migration of labour, but it's not rational to assume this is because he's a "hacker" [oooh spooky!]. Most of the time when I told the US customs that I was going to give talks at Toorcon [or whatever] they didn't even know what cryptography was, let alone that it was all dangerous and "against the interests of the united states government." Mostly they just asked if I was paid, once I said it was a free presentation they told me to fuck off and board my plane.
Tom
Oh fuck off. It's not some big conspiracy. You need a visa to ***WORK*** in the states as a non citizen. He didn't have one and thus was denied entry. I'm sure if I flew over to Germany they'd be all cool with me [a non-citizen/resident] just taking up any old job.
Actually, the only EU country I know of that lets Cannucks work there [without a visa] is France. Which oddly enough is more than what the UK permits and we're supposed to be all family or something...
Tom
You can mark up PDFs. ... Sorry to tell you that. I except that you did'nt know that.
:-)]
[mmm foddre for the grammor nazis
yeah I failed there. Teach me to not proof my damn /. posts. Oh woe is me, for I have failed humanity. Oh wait, shut up. I've spent a good deal of today writing f'ing major scales [yeah music], and naming degrees ... English is not active...
oh as for "god" fuck that idea, I'll capitalize that "proper" noun when the dude impresses me properly.
If you just run a damn nfs/samba server on your linux box you can access your files from pretty much any platform. I have my xbox fetching files off my Gentoo Linux box just fine and they're completely different OSes.
Tom
Probably a combination of incompetence and payoffs. Just because you have "IT staff" doesn't mean they really know shit all about software or how to build a workstation/server/etc. Way more people look at an MCSE as "advanced education" than simply using google to find OSS alternatives that work.
And in the end, where are the parents not pushing back?
Of course when I went to high school, teachers only accepted work in plain old "dead tree" format. And were not talking about the 60s or 70s, but the 90s. Sure at home I might have had Wordpad [god bless...] at my disposal, but the teacher wouldn't except work in that format, so I'd have to print it off at home or school.
Why can't kids just render their work in PDF format [and same for the prof], then let the creator worry about what tool they'll use. For science type classes, all you really need is to make sure the student includes all the calculations/observations to prove that they did the work.
Tom
Presumably if you had access to the records, you had access to the backups. So it's kinda a moot point. I get what you're saying. This is like the argument of "backup vs. raid-1". And it makes sense.
However, there is no reason why the 2nd data centre has to only have live data. Why couldn't it store deltas as well?