you say they don't support it. I say doom3 and ut2k4 BOTH play fine in linux.
I went through a GL class in school and all my labs worked fine. granted I didn't use advanced features...I say you're full of shit.
As for why there are "special drivers" is [from what I've been told] they do the work of the instruction set decoder in software. So they take GL commands and turn them into nvidia commands.
Don't get me wrong, it would be better if it were truly open but in the long run it doesn't really matter. It works, works well and the drivers are free.
The OSS movement was pioneered by RMS largely to prevent vendor lock-in. If 5 GPU providers all provide their own free drivers how are you locked in?
nvidia supports the GLX extensions [i.e. GL] properly so does it matter if their drivers are closed?
It'll be different when 5 GPU providers all have their own API and don't interoperate. But you won't see that. There is a vested interest in sharing an API. You can steal customers quickly.
e.g.
Little timmy goes to store and buys Vendor X's GPU and Doom4000. Timmy gets home and sees he only gets 5 FPS. He then goes to the store and buys Vendor Y's GPU. He now gets 35 FPS...
If vendor Y didn't follow the same API as vendor X the game wouldn't [likely] work for it. Timmy wouldn't buy Y's card in that case...
Just like processors actually. The AMD processors like Intel run their own "behind the scenes RISC" instruction set. There is no technical reason why the AMD64 is a x86 compatible processor other than they want to steal customers.
yeah but that's just it. Just because it's linux doesn't mean it has to be OSS.
The nvidia drivers work wonderfully and are provided for 32-bit and 64-bit platforms for all their chipsets.
Yes, it would be better if it was open... however right now does it matter? If nvidia decided they didn't care to support their users I'd find another card or keep the old drivers until they were no longer usable.
I don't see why people think all software in the Linux/BSD world has to be OSS. Hell a proprietary WM would have a fighting chance if it was efficient and more user friendly than gnome/kde.
The fact that there aren't many [any?] competent WMs that are commercial shows a lack of understanding from industry.
Same goes for other tools.
About the only real tool I can think of that is closed in linux are things like compilers and hardware tools [synthesizers, verilog compilers, etc, whatever].
No reason why there aren't closed proprietary compilers, developement studios, media encoders/servers, etc, etc, etc for linux or bsd.
the url in my profile is just some random crap I put in there. The fact it points to anything doesn't surprise me but doesn't interest me either.
Downtime costs me because I fall behind on my projects which I stake my reputation on. If I fail to deliver then it looks like I can't maintain a project.
As for distros... A good distro [like Gentoo] minimizes the "hunt for libs" to essentially "once every 6 months you may have to manually configure something".
As for resources. RAM like processors wastes electricity and other natural resources. Granted the monitor [specially CRT] is the biggest waste but feeding a 3Ghz P4 to run IE is also a huge waste in the longer run.
You may say "1GB of ram is easy to find" but surely you must see that 64M of ram is EASIER tofind...
As for the features being present... Even firefox has code bloat issues. That's the point though of OSS is to encourage new projects to take their place and fight for their existence. Who knows in 10 years I may be using a new web browser that is 1/4th the footprint of Firefox and just as capable...
As for the toaster... this would be like comparing a toaster which only has 1.5 slots, burns 60% of the toast and takes up 200% more desk space then the other toaster on the other end of the shelf out of level eye site...
First, killing a wm? Um DX locks up about as often as old people drive dangerously.
As for the others... If you were aware of how computers and the field operated you'd be aware of alternatives like openoffice or firefox or gnome or.... that are often much better, cheaper, progressive, etc...
Do you think the average user actually understands the boot process? Is it really that complicated? You think if they did they'd have zero problems installing a new os?
Your [and others] argument seems to be "they can get away with knowing nothing if they [without knowing] accept servitude to MSFT."
My argument is that "stop taking things for granted and you'll see there is a bigger world out there".
I mean I'd be saying the same thing if everyone just up and jumped to Fedora core. You'd be locked into whatever choices they made as for the distro etc.
I think people should learn about software and computers. Not to a masters level but enough to know about file formats and vendor lockin, etc, etc....
All these things are about empowerment.
So if you ask me "shouldn't we dumb down linux to make it zero-learning curve?" I'd say a straightfaced "no." Part of the learning curve is learning the broad field of available options...
I mean your arguments are essentially all just "this is the way it will be forever so why try." That's a bit self-fulfilling.
Even still, I've been using Linux only for over two years now [I was on the fence before that] and I really haven't missed anything. Sure I'd love a good FPS once and a while but the benefits for my sanity and professional life are way more worth it. And with all the money I make writing software in Linux... I go out and buy and xbox or PSP or DS game every once and a while...:-)
Anyways, nuff ranting. The simple point I'm making is encouraging people to learn is not a bad thing. Sure it's work but if your criteria of what is good is "no work" then you're as useless as the day is long and productive people are just going to shove you out of the way.
How so? nvidia is the company with all the drivers and ATI is the one denying that they make mobile chipsets...
Me thinks you're not a linux user. but some asshat poser windows user who thinks that the latest in technology is DirectX++ or whatever they're pawning on ya.
Knowing how to use a shell or edit a conf file is not "way more than you need".
I mean granted I too agree that some programs need better interfaces. That doesn't mean I think perfection is a GUI interface... Things like a.nanorc file or something is easy to strap together and fun to tinker with in spare time...
I don't look at the learning as a negative. It empowers the users to make better use and choices with computers. If they realized the bloat in Windows [and KDE for that matter] and realized that 64M of ram and icewm + firefox is all they need to read their daily websites... they'd look at their 1024M of ram + explorer + ie + bloat and shake their heads.
If they took the time to learn how a computer works they could install Linux or BSD and free themselves of the monopoly to which they've fallen victim.
Learning information is never a punishment. It's freedom.
I know first hand this isn't true. When DirectX was new and they upgraded to I think 7 or 8 someone I knew [work contact who didn't know much about windows] pestered me about how to make their sons NHL game work...
The problem with the average [not all though] retail box is that they cut corners to no end. If you just want a web browser you don't need an AMD64 running WinXP32-bit... a simple duron core, 64M of ram and linux will do for that.
And again at this point it's not about getting people to switch from Windows. It's to get them to NEVER USE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Start young. Get linux in the schools. Let kids learn how computers are actually used and work.
I mean I know how to use bash to navigate dirs [and script]. Doesn't mean I know how ReiserFS works... but at least I have the ability to work the computer at the lowest level [e.g. for install scripts or when the GUI is unavailable].
We've come to a point in society where absolutely nothing is a learning experience because if we challenge someone that's a negative experience. Well what do you think happens in 20 years when absolutely nobody can code in ASM or C? Or hell use a shell, build tools, etc...
Buy samsung laser printers. My 200$ Samsung 2010 USB worked out of the box. Only grief is the lack of 64-bit drivers, but for that I just print to.ps format then lp the file.
Good thing I have a 32-bit box just "laying around".
HP and Cannon make stupid windows crap and don't care about users at all. Samsung at least has some view of reality.
That's like saying the house you build that won't stand a 10km/h wind shows how "construction work is easy".
If windows were easy to use it would be easy to use securely.
The fact that grandpa can't install, update, manage, us the anti-{spy, mal, virus, windows} software you have to install shows that it's not easy to use.
Next you'll say open-heart surgery is easy as well....
Ok, tell me how you pipe the output of a command through a regex then get the 5th column, sort it and then paginate it for viewing in cmd.exe language without additional tools.
Oh, tell me how to background tasks and then kill them from the command line? Can you show me how to kill the window manager but not take the system down?
How about write cross-platform guis with any standard windows C library?
I really want to quickly edit a C file without loading notepad [which also doesn't handle unix format]. Got any good TTY based editors?
Hell, how do I even compile a source file with what comes on the standard WinXP cd?... etc... etc... etc...
Things like vi or nano, GTK+ or motif, gcc, etc are fairly standard on just about ANY modern linux distro [gentoo, ubuntu, debian, fedora, etc]. None of those come with WinXP.
Well if all you want is email you don't need a Dell computer. You need a dumb terminal. Stop wasting natural resources.
However, if you want a computer and don't want to learn how to use it you're just ignorant. If I was an inveestment banker I'd probably want to learn about accounting and the market.
dumb terminal == bank teller
Even then I have to educate the average bank teller about how advertising works [if you ever see a sign like "ask about our superior online banking" just ask them one question: "how is it superior?"] or how bank drafts work...
Point is, "forcing a user to learn about computers" isn't a bad thing. Because lets be realistic. The average kid today SHOULD learn about it because they're likely to use them in their professional life.
This is why you have a fucked up market. Churning out millions of college grads who take the path of least resistance because "being forced to learn things" is "stupid".
Ok you're seriously talking to the wrong person. I work two jobs and maintain over 100k lines of code, 500 pages of documentation, etc in my open source projects all for free.
Trust me. Downtime costs me.
There are distros where you don't compile everything. The fact you're not aware of this [or showing it] is because you're a two-bit troll. Go download knoppix and come back here about "compiling everything".
As for why your graphics card doesn't work, take your ATI piece of shit out, burn it, go buy a 100$ nvidia card. It'll work just fine.
Anyways, if I want to keep any sort of schedule with my projects while keeping employed I have to make the best use of my time. So far Gentoo Linux hasn't gotten in that way.
I write portable software that "just builds" on the platforms...
Oh yeah, because I'm not some bandwagon jumping lunatic and can reason that something as mature as C is a good bet [and effective].
Just to give you a hint: My libtom projects are tested on [right now] a dual-core AMD64 box running Gentoo. I started the projects on an athlon t-bird running cygwin in windows. I didn't "port" the code to linux when I made the jump and I don't "port" the code to windows now.
The code I've written btw... is used on ALL THREE of xbox, playstation and gamecube, it's also used in wireless routers and other embedded platforms. *none* of which I've ever developed for.
This is the trick behind designing proper software and "hacking together" a solution with TLAs and trendy tools.
Part of the big move to linux from windows [XP at the time] was not only that Linux is often more stable [yes it has it's moments but once you get it working it's better] but that the userland experience is so much better. The shell [in this case bash] is also a heck of a lot nicer than "cmd.exe", etc, etc, etc.
Once you learn to make good use of a *nix like desktop you'll question using windows.
Depends on what you're doing. If you're a developer of ANY sort [software or hardware] almost always linux is a better choice.
Just because you can't be bothered to learn a better way of doing things doesn't make it wrong.
And even for the average joe case, there are SIMPLE distros like Knoppix to use. I use Gentoo because I like the advantages and the learning curve wasn't out of reach. It serves what I work on very well. It's not for everyone.
Though I imagine you posted as AC because you're just trolling. But in order to make you look stupider I'll just say that if you can't sort out how to use Knoppix or Fedora you probably aren't using a computer what you have is an etch-a-sketch. You just can't tell the difference.
Granted there are utils that need better man pages and some configs could be simpler...
However, there are just too many stupid, ignorant and lazy people out there.
If mom won't use linux too fucking bad. She'll die first anyways. So long as the next generation uses linux who gives a shit?
Honestly, I'm so sick and tired of this "must be windows" bullshit. Is windows easy to use? Really? Is that why so many people get trojans, viruses, backdoors, malware, etc?
Slashdot Mirror
You had a stupid roommate. Question everything.
That's how you can effectively use your resources [time, money, energy] in this world.
Skip past the rebate offers and get product service plans in your own words [tape recorders work wonders], etc, etc.
People don't question shit anymore which probably makes life easy for scammer but not for the rest of us who get the side effects of stupidity.
Tom
Sweet jesus [sorry] you have loads of wits about you.
If you're ever in Ottawa give me a ring. I owe you a pint.
Tom -- who is glad to see someone else with good common sense about them
you say they don't support it. I say doom3 and ut2k4 BOTH play fine in linux.
I went through a GL class in school and all my labs worked fine. granted I didn't use advanced features...I say you're full of shit.
As for why there are "special drivers" is [from what I've been told] they do the work of the instruction set decoder in software. So they take GL commands and turn them into nvidia commands.
Don't get me wrong, it would be better if it were truly open but in the long run it doesn't really matter. It works, works well and the drivers are free.
Tom
TFM 0.04 ain't out quite yet [aiming to sneak it in over the weekend], but yeah it's stupid fast so I'm tons happy.
Tom
It was sarcasm. And if you think I've been "pwned by the man" you ought to look at libtomcrypt.org ;-)
Tom
Hi, phil, I knew it was you by the spellin mistake ;-)
Tom
six degrees of kevin bacon?
ARRRGARRRG
I'm sure I'm at least 20 hops from those F.A.G. members.
Tom
It makes perfect sense. The only reason you can't see it is you think the citizens are more important than the corporations.
Sad really.
Tom
Spoken like someone who "just doesn't get it".
The OSS movement was pioneered by RMS largely to prevent vendor lock-in. If 5 GPU providers all provide their own free drivers how are you locked in?
nvidia supports the GLX extensions [i.e. GL] properly so does it matter if their drivers are closed?
It'll be different when 5 GPU providers all have their own API and don't interoperate. But you won't see that. There is a vested interest in sharing an API. You can steal customers quickly.
e.g.
Little timmy goes to store and buys Vendor X's GPU and Doom4000. Timmy gets home and sees he only gets 5 FPS. He then goes to the store and buys Vendor Y's GPU. He now gets 35 FPS...
If vendor Y didn't follow the same API as vendor X the game wouldn't [likely] work for it. Timmy wouldn't buy Y's card in that case...
Just like processors actually. The AMD processors like Intel run their own "behind the scenes RISC" instruction set. There is no technical reason why the AMD64 is a x86 compatible processor other than they want to steal customers.
Tom
yeah but that's just it. Just because it's linux doesn't mean it has to be OSS.
The nvidia drivers work wonderfully and are provided for 32-bit and 64-bit platforms for all their chipsets.
Yes, it would be better if it was open... however right now does it matter? If nvidia decided they didn't care to support their users I'd find another card or keep the old drivers until they were no longer usable.
I don't see why people think all software in the Linux/BSD world has to be OSS. Hell a proprietary WM would have a fighting chance if it was efficient and more user friendly than gnome/kde.
The fact that there aren't many [any?] competent WMs that are commercial shows a lack of understanding from industry.
Same goes for other tools.
About the only real tool I can think of that is closed in linux are things like compilers and hardware tools [synthesizers, verilog compilers, etc, whatever].
No reason why there aren't closed proprietary compilers, developement studios, media encoders/servers, etc, etc, etc for linux or bsd.
Tom
the url in my profile is just some random crap I put in there. The fact it points to anything doesn't surprise me but doesn't interest me either.
Downtime costs me because I fall behind on my projects which I stake my reputation on. If I fail to deliver then it looks like I can't maintain a project.
Tom
As for distros... A good distro [like Gentoo] minimizes the "hunt for libs" to essentially "once every 6 months you may have to manually configure something".
As for resources. RAM like processors wastes electricity and other natural resources. Granted the monitor [specially CRT] is the biggest waste but feeding a 3Ghz P4 to run IE is also a huge waste in the longer run.
You may say "1GB of ram is easy to find" but surely you must see that 64M of ram is EASIER tofind...
As for the features being present... Even firefox has code bloat issues. That's the point though of OSS is to encourage new projects to take their place and fight for their existence. Who knows in 10 years I may be using a new web browser that is 1/4th the footprint of Firefox and just as capable...
As for the toaster... this would be like comparing a toaster which only has 1.5 slots, burns 60% of the toast and takes up 200% more desk space then the other toaster on the other end of the shelf out of level eye site...
Linux and BSD are the more efficient toasters.
Tom
First, killing a wm? Um DX locks up about as often as old people drive dangerously.
.... that are often much better, cheaper, progressive, etc...
... I go out and buy and xbox or PSP or DS game every once and a while... :-)
As for the others... If you were aware of how computers and the field operated you'd be aware of alternatives like openoffice or firefox or gnome or
Do you think the average user actually understands the boot process? Is it really that complicated? You think if they did they'd have zero problems installing a new os?
Your [and others] argument seems to be "they can get away with knowing nothing if they [without knowing] accept servitude to MSFT."
My argument is that "stop taking things for granted and you'll see there is a bigger world out there".
I mean I'd be saying the same thing if everyone just up and jumped to Fedora core. You'd be locked into whatever choices they made as for the distro etc.
I think people should learn about software and computers. Not to a masters level but enough to know about file formats and vendor lockin, etc, etc....
All these things are about empowerment.
So if you ask me "shouldn't we dumb down linux to make it zero-learning curve?" I'd say a straightfaced "no." Part of the learning curve is learning the broad field of available options...
I mean your arguments are essentially all just "this is the way it will be forever so why try." That's a bit self-fulfilling.
Even still, I've been using Linux only for over two years now [I was on the fence before that] and I really haven't missed anything. Sure I'd love a good FPS once and a while but the benefits for my sanity and professional life are way more worth it. And with all the money I make writing software in Linux
Anyways, nuff ranting. The simple point I'm making is encouraging people to learn is not a bad thing. Sure it's work but if your criteria of what is good is "no work" then you're as useless as the day is long and productive people are just going to shove you out of the way.
Tom
How so? nvidia is the company with all the drivers and ATI is the one denying that they make mobile chipsets...
Me thinks you're not a linux user. but some asshat poser windows user who thinks that the latest in technology is DirectX++ or whatever they're pawning on ya.
Tom
Knowing how to use a shell or edit a conf file is not "way more than you need".
.nanorc file or something is easy to strap together and fun to tinker with in spare time...
I mean granted I too agree that some programs need better interfaces. That doesn't mean I think perfection is a GUI interface... Things like a
I don't look at the learning as a negative. It empowers the users to make better use and choices with computers. If they realized the bloat in Windows [and KDE for that matter] and realized that 64M of ram and icewm + firefox is all they need to read their daily websites... they'd look at their 1024M of ram + explorer + ie + bloat and shake their heads.
If they took the time to learn how a computer works they could install Linux or BSD and free themselves of the monopoly to which they've fallen victim.
Learning information is never a punishment. It's freedom.
Tom
I know first hand this isn't true. When DirectX was new and they upgraded to I think 7 or 8 someone I knew [work contact who didn't know much about windows] pestered me about how to make their sons NHL game work...
... a simple duron core, 64M of ram and linux will do for that.
The problem with the average [not all though] retail box is that they cut corners to no end. If you just want a web browser you don't need an AMD64 running WinXP32-bit
And again at this point it's not about getting people to switch from Windows. It's to get them to NEVER USE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Start young. Get linux in the schools. Let kids learn how computers are actually used and work.
I mean I know how to use bash to navigate dirs [and script]. Doesn't mean I know how ReiserFS works... but at least I have the ability to work the computer at the lowest level [e.g. for install scripts or when the GUI is unavailable].
We've come to a point in society where absolutely nothing is a learning experience because if we challenge someone that's a negative experience. Well what do you think happens in 20 years when absolutely nobody can code in ASM or C? Or hell use a shell, build tools, etc...
Tom
Buy samsung laser printers. My 200$ Samsung 2010 USB worked out of the box. Only grief is the lack of 64-bit drivers, but for that I just print to .ps format then lp the file.
Good thing I have a 32-bit box just "laying around".
HP and Cannon make stupid windows crap and don't care about users at all. Samsung at least has some view of reality.
Tom
That's like saying the house you build that won't stand a 10km/h wind shows how "construction work is easy".
If windows were easy to use it would be easy to use securely.
The fact that grandpa can't install, update, manage, us the anti-{spy, mal, virus, windows} software you have to install shows that it's not easy to use.
Next you'll say open-heart surgery is easy as well....
Tom
Ok, tell me how you pipe the output of a command through a regex then get the 5th column, sort it and then paginate it for viewing in cmd.exe language without additional tools.
... etc ... etc ... etc ...
Oh, tell me how to background tasks and then kill them from the command line? Can you show me how to kill the window manager but not take the system down?
How about write cross-platform guis with any standard windows C library?
I really want to quickly edit a C file without loading notepad [which also doesn't handle unix format]. Got any good TTY based editors?
Hell, how do I even compile a source file with what comes on the standard WinXP cd?
Things like vi or nano, GTK+ or motif, gcc, etc are fairly standard on just about ANY modern linux distro [gentoo, ubuntu, debian, fedora, etc]. None of those come with WinXP.
Tom
Well if all you want is email you don't need a Dell computer. You need a dumb terminal. Stop wasting natural resources.
However, if you want a computer and don't want to learn how to use it you're just ignorant. If I was an inveestment banker I'd probably want to learn about accounting and the market.
dumb terminal == bank teller
Even then I have to educate the average bank teller about how advertising works [if you ever see a sign like "ask about our superior online banking" just ask them one question: "how is it superior?"] or how bank drafts work...
Point is, "forcing a user to learn about computers" isn't a bad thing. Because lets be realistic. The average kid today SHOULD learn about it because they're likely to use them in their professional life.
This is why you have a fucked up market. Churning out millions of college grads who take the path of least resistance because "being forced to learn things" is "stupid".
Tom
it just works? You've obviously never been in driver or inf hell with windows... Also, you've probably never seen a kernel panic...
Windows is also a serious pain in the ass about OEM copies... oh you installed more ram? That's another 150$ license please.
The point is who cares what whiny little windows users thinks. They're just a dying breed.
This is natural selection at work.
Either the people using OSS will be more productive, make more money, have more kids and overpopulate the non-OSS.
OR the non-OSS will be more productive, make more money and have more kids.
Give it time.
Ok you're seriously talking to the wrong person. I work two jobs and maintain over 100k lines of code, 500 pages of documentation, etc in my open source projects all for free.
Trust me. Downtime costs me.
There are distros where you don't compile everything. The fact you're not aware of this [or showing it] is because you're a two-bit troll. Go download knoppix and come back here about "compiling everything".
As for why your graphics card doesn't work, take your ATI piece of shit out, burn it, go buy a 100$ nvidia card. It'll work just fine.
Anyways, if I want to keep any sort of schedule with my projects while keeping employed I have to make the best use of my time. So far Gentoo Linux hasn't gotten in that way.
Tom
um.... What is "windows" or "apple" software?
I write portable software that "just builds" on the platforms...
Oh yeah, because I'm not some bandwagon jumping lunatic and can reason that something as mature as C is a good bet [and effective].
Just to give you a hint: My libtom projects are tested on [right now] a dual-core AMD64 box running Gentoo. I started the projects on an athlon t-bird running cygwin in windows. I didn't "port" the code to linux when I made the jump and I don't "port" the code to windows now.
The code I've written btw... is used on ALL THREE of xbox, playstation and gamecube, it's also used in wireless routers and other embedded platforms. *none* of which I've ever developed for.
This is the trick behind designing proper software and "hacking together" a solution with TLAs and trendy tools.
Part of the big move to linux from windows [XP at the time] was not only that Linux is often more stable [yes it has it's moments but once you get it working it's better] but that the userland experience is so much better. The shell [in this case bash] is also a heck of a lot nicer than "cmd.exe", etc, etc, etc.
Once you learn to make good use of a *nix like desktop you'll question using windows.
Tom
Depends on what you're doing. If you're a developer of ANY sort [software or hardware] almost always linux is a better choice.
Just because you can't be bothered to learn a better way of doing things doesn't make it wrong.
And even for the average joe case, there are SIMPLE distros like Knoppix to use. I use Gentoo because I like the advantages and the learning curve wasn't out of reach. It serves what I work on very well. It's not for everyone.
Though I imagine you posted as AC because you're just trolling. But in order to make you look stupider I'll just say that if you can't sort out how to use Knoppix or Fedora you probably aren't using a computer what you have is an etch-a-sketch. You just can't tell the difference.
Tom
Granted there are utils that need better man pages and some configs could be simpler...
However, there are just too many stupid, ignorant and lazy people out there.
If mom won't use linux too fucking bad. She'll die first anyways. So long as the next generation uses linux who gives a shit?
Honestly, I'm so sick and tired of this "must be windows" bullshit. Is windows easy to use? Really? Is that why so many people get trojans, viruses, backdoors, malware, etc?
Tom