I first started using Debian a year ago (when 2.0 came out). It was a pain in the ass to install. It is a year later, I'm running 2.1 and it's still a pain in the ass to install. And dselect is awkward to work with. I like it though. The upgrade procedure is indeed pretty nice. Although I managed to completely screw up the installation by trying to upgrade 2.1 to the unstable 2.2 via ftp. Had to reinstall.
BTW, does anybody know when 2.2 will be released? Will it come with something better then dselect? And the toughest question -- what the hell does the word Debian mean???
right. So why don't you *give* these people a job? You can't just cut off their air supply and let them starve. You have to provide a way for them to feed themselves. If a country is unable to provide people with jobs, it deserves to spend millions on welfare.
I'm sorry, but I have to reply to this, for I too live in Ontario. In fact, unlike you, I still live there and don't have any plans to move out. Your post has certainly been very informative but I want to present the other side of the story.
Yes, Harris lowered taxes. At what cost? Cuts to Health Care, Education, Welfare, etc. I presume you are not aware that Ontario is now one of the worst places in North America when it comes to education spending? I am currently a university student. I make just barely enough money to pay for school, and I don't think I can handle any more of Harris's "tax cuts". (Tuition has already gone up like 30% since I started and I don't even know how much it's gonna be this fall.) What about the teachers' strike last year? Harris changed the existing contract and shoved it down their throats. What about overcrowded hospitals and shortage of doctors? I could go on here but I'm just gonna say one more thing. Our famous libretarian has proposed mandatory drug & alcohol tests for people on welfare, as part of his election campaign.
So, as far as I'm concerned, this crypto thing is the only thing Harris did right. Well, there is another one actually. Now you can walk around topless anywhere in Ontario. Let's hear it for libretarians:-)
I understand Oracle has been ported only to x86 Linux. But 32 bit architecture is quickly running out of steam. In fact, for large databases 4 gig memory space is nowhere near enough already. I wonder if they plan to port it to other platforms, such as Alpha or PPC. Insidentally, how well does Linux support 64-bit memory on these platforms? What about SMP on them?
OK, so now we even have the root password. Great. We're definitely getting closer to cracking that baby! The only thing we need is for Jeff to enable remote root logins. And I'm sure he will. Just to make things interesting. Come on, Jeff! Then I'll be sure to crack it!
I can only imagine Microsoft's marketing geniuses saying:
"Windows NT is the most secure operating system. It has a feature called IntelliCrash, which causes the operating system to crash when it detects high network traffic. Such traffic is always caused by hacker's activities, but, since the system is down, any attempts to break in will be unsuccessful. This innovation puts us years ahead of the competition."
Has anyone been able to connect to the MS's test site??? I have yet to see it work. Yesterday it was first timing out, then stopped resolving at all. Today it resolves again, but still times out. (I was merely trying to view the web page in Netscape). Is it dead? Has it been alive at all?
This is just to add to all the stuff already mentioned: NT has per-seat licencing. That means if you have 100 people using NT server you need to buy 100 client licenses. (last I checked they were somewhere around $50 each). You also need to buy Zetafax client licenses. Add to that the base price of NT and Zetafax, and you get a pretty large sum. I'm sure you had some kind of special deal so that the $100 you mentioned covers all the costs, didn't you? Or did you accidentally misplace the decimal point? Obviously you are not pirating, are you?
How exactly do games run on Linux? I've played Q2 with svgalib but it's so outdated and barely usable. You can't play them in X cause you need full screen. I know Quake can run in a window, but who the hell would want to play it that way? So, I don't understand what exactly are these games being ported *to*. Is there a single API in Linux that games can use??
This is off topic, but I'm just curious. I was under impression that you need a Sun or IBM box to make a serious database server. On Intel it wouldn't work well because of 32 bit memory limitations. And, AFAIK, Oracle has been ported only to Linux on x86. How big a server is that gonna be? Are you concerned at all about scalability? There is hardly any room for growth on x86...
I've never installed debian, but from the comments, I guess it's installer must just put everything it ships with on yor system, and then make you use your monsterous pipe direct to their server to download nay optional components.
You are 1/10th right: you've never installed Debian:-)
And just for future reference, make sure you know what you're talking about before you actually say it.
You *rarely* need to use the "mount command" in SuSE or other distributions. To me, it's sad that newbies are advised to use such primitive and archaic methods to access removable media.
Uh-huh... and how else are you supposed to access cd-rom or floppy??? Please enlighten me.
Of course, the other way of accessing removable media is to install an automounter.
Uhhm, get a clue. I suspect you haven't even tried to use it. Automounter is not designed to work with removable media. After you're done with a CD you probably want to unmount it so you can take it out. Automounter does not do that.
There needs to be a balance between fixing bugs forever and doing releases constantly.
Agreed. And my point is that SuSE shifted the balance to doing constant releases. You surely remember that SuSE 6.1 came out in May, don't you?
However, as far as stability, I've found it excellent.
I found it inadequate. There is something completely fucked up with their KDE / X servers. Once in a while it just locks up and I have to press ctrl-alt-backspace to "fix" it. The other day it locked up such that it didn't even respond to the keyboard. I had to telnet in from another machine and kill the X server. That certainly shows Linux's stability, but also reveals SuSE's screwed up set up. (oh yeah, I had neven had this problem before I installed SuSE)
"Telnet is so slow..." -- what precisely is slow about it?
I actually posted it on newsgroups several times. And my question even appeared in Ask Slashdot section. Here is the link
I disagree about the manual; I think it's one of the best ones around.
Bull shit. (to put it mildly). First of all, my own impression about the text of the book is that it has about the same quality as the output from babelfish. Secondly (and that's the important part), a friend of mine, complete Linux newbie, bought SuSE 6.1. It turns out the manual doesn't even explain the basic things. Last week he emailed me asking how to access the cd-rom. I took a closer look at the manual, and it turns out that it doesn't even do a good job at explaining mounting! He also pointed out that "First Steps with Linux" is at the very *end* of the manual. He says he read about 2/3 of the book and he still didn't have a clue about the most basic things!
Come on people. Give me a break. SuSE hasn't even fixed all the nasty bugs from 6.1 and they are already moving to the next release??? I am still desperately trying to figure out why the hell telnet is so slow on my SuSE 6.1 system, along with a whole bunch of other problems. On top of that, the manual is absolutely useless. It looks like they just ran it through babelfish to get English translation. They probably didn't even read it before they shipped it because there is a lot of stuff in it that's still in German! Finally, their tech support is non-existant. I tried to contact them for over a month before they finally replied, only to say that they've no idea what's wrong. I was using RedHat originally and the primary reason I switched to SuSE was because I heard SuSE was much better quality / less buggy. Needless to say, I'm disappointed. I certainly will not "upgrade". In fact this is the first and the last SuSE distribution I bought. On the other hand, Debian, which I use on my other box, has always worked right. So I might as well stick with it.
I know I'm gonna get flamed / moderated down for that, but what can you do? People don't like criticism, esp. when they deserve it.
Nope, Linux has much better SMP support then *BSD. In current BSD variants SMP is somewhat like that of Linux 2.0. However, there is plenty of anecdotal "evidence" that FreeBSD has a slight edge over Linux on single CPU systems.
uhhm no. UltraSPARC scales up to 64 CPUs (in reality). Sequent's boxes scale up to 64 CPUs (in marketing). UltraSPARCs are 64 bit and can use terabytes of memory. Intel's CPUs are 32 bit and are limited to 2 gigs (or maybe 4).
I went to Sequent's web site to see what it's all about, and apparently all they do is intel-based boxes, and charge 6 digits for them. The boxes run Sequent's proprietary version of Unix (which I had never heard about before).
Now, it may be just me, but I am completely missing the point of of this. Wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy a Sun box instead? The support and the availability of applications would be much better too. Who the hell would want to run a large data centre on 32 bit intel hardware anyway???
Uhhm, no. I do not run X as root. And yes, I've found more bugs as well. It's just that these two are extremely irritating. I can live with the other ones, but these two are unbearable.
BTW, I did install KDE updates that I downloaded from SuSE's ftp site. Now it doesn't seem to lock up as often. But then again - it might be that I got used to it already;-) (After all people do get used to win95 crashes...)
As for the telnet problem - it persists. And I don't have a clue how to fix it. It's really driving me nuts. The gateway is a headless box and I need to be able to administer it remotely. As of now, I have to reboot to windows to do that.
SuSE 6.1 (for intel at least) has two very nasty bugs that I've been trying to get rid of (unsuccessfuly) for the last two month.
First, there is a weird telnet problem. I have a LAN of 4 machines sharing a cable modem via gateway running Debian 2.1 / 2.2.9. Telnet from my computer (running SuSE 6.1 / 2.2.9) to the gateway is slow to the point of being absolutely unusable. Other machines work fine. And btw, windows on my machine works too. Never had this problem before I installed SuSE.
Second, KDE keeps locking up. Once in a while it just freezes. I can still move the mouse but nothing works. The only way to "fix" this is by pressing ctrl-alt-backspace to kill the X server. Never had this problem before either.
Finaly, SuSE "tech support" is non-existant. I've been trying to contact them for over a month. They finally replied yesterday only to say that they've no idea. They also said they were very busy lately. So busy, I presume that they couldn't even change their autoreply message. Last I emailed them (beginning of July), it said that their office will be closed on May 25...
I loved Debian ever since I installed Hamm almost a year ago. So I think I'll stick with it for both, server and workstation.
Slashdot Mirror
"Thou who hath lied once, who shall believe you?"
Sorry, I'm not sure about the exact quote but that is a close aproximation.
Enough credible sources?
BTW, it is kind of ironic since you are an Anonymous Coward....
I first started using Debian a year ago (when 2.0 came out). It was a pain in the ass to install. It is a year later, I'm running 2.1 and it's still a pain in the ass to install. And dselect is awkward to work with.
I like it though. The upgrade procedure is indeed pretty nice. Although I managed to completely screw up the installation by trying to upgrade 2.1 to the unstable 2.2 via ftp. Had to reinstall.
BTW, does anybody know when 2.2 will be released? Will it come with something better then dselect? And the toughest question -- what the hell does the word Debian mean???
Now I wonder if somebody actually cracked it or (more likely) it crashed again. It's been down more then up since this whole thing started.
right. So why don't you *give* these people a job? You can't just cut off their air supply and let them starve. You have to provide a way for them to feed themselves. If a country is unable to provide people with jobs, it deserves to spend millions on welfare.
I'm sorry, but I have to reply to this, for I too live in Ontario. In fact, unlike you, I still live there and don't have any plans to move out. Your post has certainly been very informative but I want to present the other side of the story.
:-)
Yes, Harris lowered taxes. At what cost? Cuts to Health Care, Education, Welfare, etc. I presume you are not aware that Ontario is now one of the worst places in North America when it comes to education spending? I am currently a university student. I make just barely enough money to pay for school, and I don't think I can handle any more of Harris's "tax cuts". (Tuition has already gone up like 30% since I started and I don't even know how much it's gonna be this fall.)
What about the teachers' strike last year? Harris changed the existing contract and shoved it down their throats.
What about overcrowded hospitals and shortage of doctors?
I could go on here but I'm just gonna say one more thing. Our famous libretarian has proposed mandatory drug & alcohol tests for people on welfare, as part of his election campaign.
So, as far as I'm concerned, this crypto thing is the only thing Harris did right. Well, there is another one actually. Now you can walk around topless anywhere in Ontario. Let's hear it for libretarians
I understand Oracle has been ported only to x86 Linux. But 32 bit architecture is quickly running out of steam. In fact, for large databases 4 gig memory space is nowhere near enough already. I wonder if they plan to port it to other platforms, such as Alpha or PPC. Insidentally, how well does Linux support 64-bit memory on these platforms? What about SMP on them?
OK, so now we even have the root password. Great. We're definitely getting closer to cracking that baby! The only thing we need is for Jeff to enable remote root logins. And I'm sure he will. Just to make things interesting. Come on, Jeff! Then I'll be sure to crack it!
I can only imagine Microsoft's marketing geniuses saying:
"Windows NT is the most secure operating system. It has a feature called IntelliCrash, which causes the operating system to crash when it detects high network traffic. Such traffic is always caused by hacker's activities, but, since the system is down, any attempts to break in will be unsuccessful. This innovation puts us years ahead of the competition."
Has anyone been able to connect to the MS's test site??? I have yet to see it work. Yesterday it was first timing out, then stopped resolving at all. Today it resolves again, but still times out. (I was merely trying to view the web page in Netscape).
Is it dead? Has it been alive at all?
This is just to add to all the stuff already mentioned: NT has per-seat licencing. That means if you have 100 people using NT server you need to buy 100 client licenses. (last I checked they were somewhere around $50 each). You also need to buy Zetafax client licenses. Add to that the base price of NT and Zetafax, and you get a pretty large sum.
I'm sure you had some kind of special deal so that the $100 you mentioned covers all the costs, didn't you? Or did you accidentally misplace the decimal point? Obviously you are not pirating, are you?
what script do you use? I thought there could be only one instance of X server running at a time.
How exactly do games run on Linux? I've played Q2 with svgalib but it's so outdated and barely usable. You can't play them in X cause you need full screen. I know Quake can run in a window, but who the hell would want to play it that way? So, I don't understand what exactly are these games being ported *to*. Is there a single API in Linux that games can use??
This is off topic, but I'm just curious.
I was under impression that you need a Sun or IBM box to make a serious database server. On Intel it wouldn't work well because of 32 bit memory limitations. And, AFAIK, Oracle has been ported only to Linux on x86. How big a server is that gonna be? Are you concerned at all about scalability? There is hardly any room for growth on x86...
You are 1/10th right: you've never installed Debian :-)
And just for future reference, make sure you know what you're talking about before you actually say it.
Uh-huh... and how else are you supposed to access cd-rom or floppy??? Please enlighten me.
Of course, the other way of accessing removable media is to install an automounter.
Uhhm, get a clue. I suspect you haven't even tried to use it. Automounter is not designed to work with removable media. After you're done with a CD you probably want to unmount it so you can take it out. Automounter does not do that.
nope. I'm still stuck with it. How exactly can routing be messed up? There is not much to it on my little network. Here is the printout:
10.0.0.0 * 255.0.0.0 U 0 0 0 eth0
loopback * 255.0.0.0 U 0 0 0 lo
default portal.penguin.net 0.0.0.0 UG 0 0 0 eth0
Agreed. And my point is that SuSE shifted the balance to doing constant releases. You surely remember that SuSE 6.1 came out in May, don't you?
However, as far as stability, I've found it excellent.
I found it inadequate. There is something completely fucked up with their KDE / X servers. Once in a while it just locks up and I have to press ctrl-alt-backspace to "fix" it. The other day it locked up such that it didn't even respond to the keyboard. I had to telnet in from another machine and kill the X server. That certainly shows Linux's stability, but also reveals SuSE's screwed up set up. (oh yeah, I had neven had this problem before I installed SuSE)
"Telnet is so slow..." -- what precisely is slow about it?
I actually posted it on newsgroups several times. And my question even appeared in Ask Slashdot section. Here is the link
I disagree about the manual; I think it's one of the best ones around.
Bull shit. (to put it mildly). First of all, my own impression about the text of the book is that it has about the same quality as the output from babelfish. Secondly (and that's the important part), a friend of mine, complete Linux newbie, bought SuSE 6.1. It turns out the manual doesn't even explain the basic things. Last week he emailed me asking how to access the cd-rom. I took a closer look at the manual, and it turns out that it doesn't even do a good job at explaining mounting! He also pointed out that "First Steps with Linux" is at the very *end* of the manual. He says he read about 2/3 of the book and he still didn't have a clue about the most basic things!
Come on people. Give me a break. SuSE hasn't even fixed all the nasty bugs from 6.1 and they are already moving to the next release???
I am still desperately trying to figure out why the hell telnet is so slow on my SuSE 6.1 system, along with a whole bunch of other problems.
On top of that, the manual is absolutely useless. It looks like they just ran it through babelfish to get English translation. They probably didn't even read it before they shipped it because there is a lot of stuff in it that's still in German!
Finally, their tech support is non-existant. I tried to contact them for over a month before they finally replied, only to say that they've no idea what's wrong.
I was using RedHat originally and the primary reason I switched to SuSE was because I heard SuSE was much better quality / less buggy. Needless to say, I'm disappointed. I certainly will not "upgrade". In fact this is the first and the last SuSE distribution I bought.
On the other hand, Debian, which I use on my other box, has always worked right. So I might as well stick with it.
I know I'm gonna get flamed / moderated down for that, but what can you do? People don't like criticism, esp. when they deserve it.
Nope, Linux has much better SMP support then *BSD. In current BSD variants SMP is somewhat like that of Linux 2.0. However, there is plenty of anecdotal "evidence" that FreeBSD has a slight edge over Linux on single CPU systems.
uhhm no.
UltraSPARC scales up to 64 CPUs (in reality). Sequent's boxes scale up to 64 CPUs (in marketing).
UltraSPARCs are 64 bit and can use terabytes of memory. Intel's CPUs are 32 bit and are limited to 2 gigs (or maybe 4).
I went to Sequent's web site to see what it's all about, and apparently all they do is intel-based boxes, and charge 6 digits for them. The boxes run Sequent's proprietary version of Unix (which I had never heard about before).
Now, it may be just me, but I am completely missing the point of of this. Wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy a Sun box instead? The support and the availability of applications would be much better too. Who the hell would want to run a large data centre on 32 bit intel hardware anyway???
Uhhm, no. I do not run X as root.
And yes, I've found more bugs as well. It's just that these two are extremely irritating. I can live with the other ones, but these two are unbearable.
Thanks. What's the address of the mailing list?
;-) (After all people do get used to win95 crashes...)
BTW, I did install KDE updates that I downloaded from SuSE's ftp site. Now it doesn't seem to lock up as often. But then again - it might be that I got used to it already
As for the telnet problem - it persists. And I don't have a clue how to fix it. It's really driving me nuts. The gateway is a headless box and I need to be able to administer it remotely. As of now, I have to reboot to windows to do that.
SuSE 6.1 (for intel at least) has two very nasty bugs that I've been trying to get rid of (unsuccessfuly) for the last two month.
First, there is a weird telnet problem. I have a LAN of 4 machines sharing a cable modem via gateway running Debian 2.1 / 2.2.9. Telnet from my computer (running SuSE 6.1 / 2.2.9) to the gateway is slow to the point of being absolutely unusable. Other machines work fine. And btw, windows on my machine works too. Never had this problem before I installed SuSE.
Second, KDE keeps locking up. Once in a while it just freezes. I can still move the mouse but nothing works. The only way to "fix" this is by pressing ctrl-alt-backspace to kill the X server.
Never had this problem before either.
Finaly, SuSE "tech support" is non-existant. I've been trying to contact them for over a month. They finally replied yesterday only to say that they've no idea. They also said they were very busy lately. So busy, I presume that they couldn't even change their autoreply message. Last I emailed them (beginning of July), it said that their office will be closed on May 25...
I loved Debian ever since I installed Hamm almost a year ago. So I think I'll stick with it for both, server and workstation.