Actually, I think it's your ilk that is trying to redefine the longstanding industry term "Open".
For example, it was common to say "UNIX is an Open System" -- even though it cost millions of dollars to license UNIX and the license fell miles short of any sort of free software-ish standards. Microsoft's and Sun's use of the term are very much in line with the historical usage, and the "Open Source" peoples' are not.
Plus, it seems that the latest conclusion is that Microsoft's "OpenXML" licence really is "open" enough that it will be widely implemented in open source programs.
> If your browser is hanging it is a bug with the browser and not the framework.
That's nice, but has never been a legitimate excuse in professional web development. Either the feature works as advertised, or you work around the bugs, or you don't use it.
You could persist form values with one line of code in classic ASP? Hmm.. I seem to remember reams and reams of boilerplate form processing code. Even the 'framework' ASP code I used required more setup code. Eliminating that stuff is basically the upside to ASP.NET... the datagrid and other controls are more or less a wash.
> 1997 IE 4.0 introduces ability to modify the UI via the DOM...
Actually (in theory) you could do that in 1996 with Nutscrape 4's proprietary Layers DOM. Although in practice, it was too buggy to use.
Nutscrape and Microsoft also had a AJAX-ish Java Applets before MS introduced the XMLHTTP COM object.
Re:Did you guys even read TFA??? - ASTROTURFER
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Microsoft Releases Atlas
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If this sort of post bothers you, I can't imagine how you can deal with any of the comment forums on this site. The Apple Topics in particular are choked with "appleturf", as are any "free software" or EFF topics. The moderation system in general encourages and rewards "Party Line" posts so that's what you get.
Keep in mind that MS implemented their Quirks/Strict mode thing in 2001, when approximately 8 pages on the entire Internet were written towards strict HTML4/CSS2 compliance. (Yeah, they should have fixed it a long time ago, better late than never.)
Also I wouldn't say they are "breaking compatibility" as much a fixing bugs -- if you worked around IE6 Strict Mode, you should be fine, and if IE6 has broken your page, it should be fixed.
> want quirks? Send an X-Microsoft-Quirks header
This is exactly what DOCTYPE is for, and exactly how it's used in Firefox.
If HTML/Javascript/XML/etc were truly standardized then people would realize that they could use whatever operating system they wanted, and Microsoft would lose out.
Even if these technologies were 100% standardized (which they never will be), the web browser is a critical part of the development tool "stack", which includes everything from IDEs to Databases to Application Servers. So Microsoft pretty much has to be in the browser market as long as they are advertising a complete solution.
Isn't "bash-syndrome" basically the same thing as "Unix Syndrome"? And we all know that's a good thing, uh, right?
(Because writing essential system logic in an archaic shell language with limited flow control and error handling is a million times better than, say, VBScript. [Prepares to take my flamebait mods like a good boy.])
Well, you have to consider that on one end of the scale you have MySQL. And on the other you have elaborate Java "ORMs", but the idea is basically the same -- keep the webdev away from the SQL.
So, basically it's named after an in-joke about a software package that everyone forgot about 20 years ago. That's a great reason to keep it! Go Go OSS Marketing.
I know MS Access, Access came with Office, Access is fast and easy, and Access does all the things that I need a database to do...
(Only partially being sarcastic here. Access is fine for a lot of things. It's just the mentality that kills me. LAMP Developers are the true heir to the VB/Access Guy Mentality)
> Yeah this is basically a perfect example of how capitalism is supposed to work really.
Pretty much all of "seed capital" for Firefox was funded by an anti-trust lawsuit between two giant corporations. So this is pretty far from ideal capitalism.
The Army is an interesting example, because they moved to MacOS Classic to get away from Unix and it's security complexity. Now it seems like they have a bit of a legacy problem (4D is still around!?) -- legacy nonstandard Mac crap + all the same security pitfalls.
The 'volunteer' Apple PR Flack defending individual thought. That's rich.
Deep down inside, you must realize that getting into an advocacy fit with a lame trade publication has nothing to do with the interests of academia or the University of Wisconsin, and everything to do with your little personal Mac fixation.
ll these trolls seem to think it's perfectly natural that you'd let hundreds of anonymous users into your system,
That's been the Unix use-model since pretty much the the beginning. Unix wasn't invented to run locked down webservers -- it was designed to provide interactive shells to tons of semi-anonymous students / ISP customers / etc.
(Yes, it's not ideal, but yes it's supposed to be "secure").
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Actually, I think it's your ilk that is trying to redefine the longstanding industry term "Open".
For example, it was common to say "UNIX is an Open System" -- even though it cost millions of dollars to license UNIX and the license fell miles short of any sort of free software-ish standards. Microsoft's and Sun's use of the term are very much in line with the historical usage, and the "Open Source" peoples' are not.
Plus, it seems that the latest conclusion is that Microsoft's "OpenXML" licence really is "open" enough that it will be widely implemented in open source programs.
> If your browser is hanging it is a bug with the browser and not the framework.
That's nice, but has never been a legitimate excuse in professional web development. Either the feature works as advertised, or you work around the bugs, or you don't use it.
Actually, Google seems to understand ".net" just fine. Search for "ajax .net" (without the quotes) and most of the results are relevant.
You could persist form values with one line of code in classic ASP? Hmm.. I seem to remember reams and reams of boilerplate form processing code. Even the 'framework' ASP code I used required more setup code. Eliminating that stuff is basically the upside to ASP.NET ... the datagrid and other controls are more or less a wash.
> 1997 IE 4.0 introduces ability to modify the UI via the DOM ...
Actually (in theory) you could do that in 1996 with Nutscrape 4's proprietary Layers DOM. Although in practice, it was too buggy to use.
Nutscrape and Microsoft also had a AJAX-ish Java Applets before MS introduced the XMLHTTP COM object.
If this sort of post bothers you, I can't imagine how you can deal with any of the comment forums on this site. The Apple Topics in particular are choked with "appleturf", as are any "free software" or EFF topics. The moderation system in general encourages and rewards "Party Line" posts so that's what you get.
Sorry, but this is just incorrect. HD-DVD will also "support" HD over component.
In fact both systems are the same deal -- whether you can use component HD is up to the DRM policy that the studio stamps onto the disk.
Keep in mind that MS implemented their Quirks/Strict mode thing in 2001, when approximately 8 pages on the entire Internet were written towards strict HTML4/CSS2 compliance. (Yeah, they should have fixed it a long time ago, better late than never.)
Also I wouldn't say they are "breaking compatibility" as much a fixing bugs -- if you worked around IE6 Strict Mode, you should be fine, and if IE6 has broken your page, it should be fixed.
> want quirks? Send an X-Microsoft-Quirks header
This is exactly what DOCTYPE is for, and exactly how it's used in Firefox.
If HTML/Javascript/XML/etc were truly standardized then people would realize that they could use whatever operating system they wanted, and Microsoft would lose out.
Even if these technologies were 100% standardized (which they never will be), the web browser is a critical part of the development tool "stack", which includes everything from IDEs to Databases to Application Servers. So Microsoft pretty much has to be in the browser market as long as they are advertising a complete solution.
Bocks route seems to be the most obvious -- people have been using it to boot Windows on LinuxBIOS for years.
Isn't "bash-syndrome" basically the same thing as "Unix Syndrome"? And we all know that's a good thing, uh, right?
(Because writing essential system logic in an archaic shell language with limited flow control and error handling is a million times better than, say, VBScript. [Prepares to take my flamebait mods like a good boy.])
Well, you have to consider that on one end of the scale you have MySQL. And on the other you have elaborate Java "ORMs", but the idea is basically the same -- keep the webdev away from the SQL.
Zing! You got me, Mr Contemporary Hep-To-The-Teen-Beat L33T5P33K Guy.
Is there an acutal problem with ODBC or is this just an Old=Bad thing?
So, basically it's named after an in-joke about a software package that everyone forgot about 20 years ago. That's a great reason to keep it! Go Go OSS Marketing.
Actually, I was shopping for hosts last year and every single one that I looked into had postgresql available.
I don't think the hosting is as much of an argument as all the precooked PHP packages out there hardcoded for MySQL.
I know MS Access, Access came with Office, Access is fast and easy, and Access does all the things that I need a database to do...
(Only partially being sarcastic here. Access is fine for a lot of things. It's just the mentality that kills me. LAMP Developers are the true heir to the VB/Access Guy Mentality)
The only news there is that software firewalls work.
(The original release of XP should have had a firewall active, but that's another story.)
> Yeah this is basically a perfect example of how capitalism is supposed to work really.
Pretty much all of "seed capital" for Firefox was funded by an anti-trust lawsuit between two giant corporations. So this is pretty far from ideal capitalism.
Dell Desktops are generally very bog standard Intel kit with good open source driver support.
For example, Intel video is hardly a performance king, but it's one of the few chips with a vendor-supported opensource driver.
The Army is an interesting example, because they moved to MacOS Classic to get away from Unix and it's security complexity. Now it seems like they have a bit of a legacy problem (4D is still around!?) -- legacy nonstandard Mac crap + all the same security pitfalls.
That's nice, but Option Explicit is irrelevant to the discussion.
Option Strict is new for .NET and did not even exist for VB5/6, so that is incorrect.
The 'volunteer' Apple PR Flack defending individual thought. That's rich.
Deep down inside, you must realize that getting into an advocacy fit with a lame trade publication has nothing to do with the interests of academia or the University of Wisconsin, and everything to do with your little personal Mac fixation.
ll these trolls seem to think it's perfectly natural that you'd let hundreds of anonymous users into your system,
That's been the Unix use-model since pretty much the the beginning. Unix wasn't invented to run locked down webservers -- it was designed to provide interactive shells to tons of semi-anonymous students / ISP customers / etc.
(Yes, it's not ideal, but yes it's supposed to be "secure").