Sony DRM and the New Digital Hole

expro writes "If the root kit scandal was not enough for Sony, Time Magazine reports that it is a delay in 'the release of copy-protection software required for the PS3's game and high-definition movie discs' giving Microsoft a serious advantage in the market place. Is there something Sony should be learning here about preoccupation copy control? With high definition writable media appearing already, will the price drop soon enough to help me overcome the real obstacle to backing up my exsisting commercial DVDs, cost of single media large enough to hold them that is playable in a player? Will the resulting new digital hole in copying existing DVD schemes to higher-density media replace the analog hole of VCRs in copying movies?"

Comments

Microsoft? Who knew!

[fatduck]

Who would have thought it'd be Microsoft capitalizing on a competitor's fumbling attempts at DRM resulting in confusion and loss of product usability?

Is there something Sony should be learning?

[Spazntwich]

There probably isn't. I guarantee you that in a corporation this large, the beancounters have already run through the numbers plenty of times to decide that this is their most economically viable course of action.

I'm not saying corporations are always right or always do the right thing, but when it comes to making money, Sony usually gets it right, and I don't think one self-important slashdotter speculating otherwise carries much weight compared to a financial beast that's been generating astoundingly large piles of cash for the past long while.

Re:Is there something Sony should be learning?

[Stripe7]

SONY has not been getting it right for some time now. Their product lines has been going downhill for quite some time all because of their bean counters. They used to be somewhat good quality products now its just crap.

Re:Is there something Sony should be learning?

[DerGeist]

Exactly. Sony isn't stupid, although they do make mistakes.

The negative PR Sony gets in geekland is outweighed by the average consumer's perception of the quality of Sony products. Sony's rootkit was absolutely unacceptable, but don't think Sony didn't already know that.

You'll never know what your boundaries are unless you surpass them. This way, when they slowly reintroduce the same technology years later when DRM and consumer hard-drive snooping has become largely perfunctory, they can measure how far they've come.

Re:Is there something Sony should be learning?

[Anonymous Coward]

I guarantee you that in a corporation this large, the beancounters have already run through the numbers plenty of times to decide that this is their most economically viable course of action.

Monumental screwups happen. Ever heard of New Coke?

Re:Is there something Sony should be learning?

[buffer-overflowed]

Perception of Sony's products... ok, you mean that they're overpriced crap and just about everyone knows this? Even their high-end stuff isn't quality any more. They're like Bose w/o the cache.

And their media empire hasn't been doing so hot lately either.

Basically, the main thing keeping Sony afloat right now is the playstation brand. They are not a healthy company.

Re:Is there something Sony should be learning?

[Svartalf]

The problem with the negative PR comment you just made is one of the fact that it wasn't
just "geekland" that they got the negative PR over DRM- it was pretty much
common news to the point that the governments were chastising them and taking them to
court over it.

With this in mind, it's a little amazing that they're so damn worried about DRM (which
got them in trouble, costs for which are yet to be fully determined...) to majorly delay
one of their MAIN product offerings to the point that they may well
cede their top market position to their other two competitors (Which WILL cost them quite
a bit...).

It's not sound business, really. I'd sure as hell not be doing it- DRM's really not
that important and from the rumblings of companies like Intel with their media offerings
they've got competitors that will gladly cut Sony's throat over that worry as they
belive that the best management of "rights" is to make it economically unfeasable
in the large part to pirate in the first place.

Re:Is there something Sony should be learning?

[kt0157]

"but when it comes to making money, Sony usually gets it right"

Hehehehe.

K.

Re:Is there something Sony should be learning?

[Spazntwich]

If you're going to make a "Sony is dying" post, would you mind providing a bit more documentation of said impending death than the various BSD is dying trolls provide?

Come on, at least a netcraft quote.

Re:Is there something Sony should be learning?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony's consumer crap has always been just that, crap. They basically survived on the reputation of their professional equipment for years.

Until the Playstation came along, that is. Playstation now represents something like 90% of their consumer electronics revenue, so it's no suprise that the rest of their CE lineup is getting twisted into PS tie-ins.

Re:Is there something Sony should be learning?

[buffer-overflowed]

I didn't say they were dying, I said they weren't very healthy. You can go look over their quarterlies if you want. It's an absolutely true statement.

Re:Is there something Sony should be learning?

[BewireNomali]

IT's because they know they won't cede top market position.

what percentage consumer retention (of PS2 owners) will Sony need in order to be considered successful with the PS3? 60%? 70%? any of those two guarantees a wealth of riches for the next seven years. They'll be fine. Microsoft XBox owners and PS owners rarely overlap. The audience that is actively choosing between the two is small. PS2 owners will re up when it comes out, and until then they have a shitload of games to keep playing.

Sony doesn't lose much from the delay.

MSFT has a lot to gain, but it's too late for this cycle. the xbox's road to glory lies in the fact that they tried to shoehorn some kind of media center into it. Then they'd have their hands in the entire gamut of content delivery to the living room. They fucked up though. First with a juvenile design that won't appeal to adult purchasers of consumer electronics. Second, XBox is a stupid name for a sophisticated consumer electronics device. NAmes mean a lot.

Third, They over market the gaming aspect and undermarket the other things you can do wih it. This, their market can't grow - they haven't show any reason non-owners of previous consoles should want one.

Nintendo is making serious inroads in thoguht process and this should be interesting, however. Their console is too new to call.

Re:Is there something Sony should be learning?

[timeOday]

I guarantee you that in a corporation this large, the beancounters have already run through the numbers plenty of times to decide that this is their most economically viable course of action.

Would those be the same beancounters who decided the rootkit CD protection scheme was a swell idea? Or who failed to head off the iPod, even with a massive head start? Your argument is simply that Sony can do no wrong. I don't buy it.

Re:Is there something Sony should be learning?

[synergy3000]

When it comes to making money the only time as of recent Sony had it right was with the Playstation 1 and 2. Now they delayed their PS3 to a time when they will have to go head to head not only with Nintendo but with Microsoft who has already selling their unit for longer? The days of sony being right are long gone. Look for them to be split off and sold in pieces.

Re:Is there something Sony should be learning?

[yo_tuco]

"First with a juvenile design that won't appeal to adult purchasers of consumer electronics. Second, XBox is a stupid name for a sophisticated consumer electronics device."

You've got that right, big-time. And if you tell the decorative-conscience wife you're going to put an XBox in the living room as part of the entertainment center, you'll most likely get an answer, "not in my house you're NOT!".

Re:Is there something Sony should be learning?

[ultranova]

There probably isn't. I guarantee you that in a corporation this large, the beancounters have already run through the numbers plenty of times to decide that this is their most economically viable course of action.

Sure. However, a calculation is only as good as the data it was based on. In order to calculate the most economically viable course of action, you need to guesstimate what happens as a result of each possible action, and then compare the results. A beancounter has no magical crystal ball that would tell him these results with certainty, so his guesstimate is often wrong.

In other words, beancounters aren't always right. This, then, leaves two possible ways to increase the chances of success: to use common sense - to predict that, say, putting rootkits to peoples computers are not going to make them happy - or to be ready to change direction if things start going differently than estimated.

Time will tell how well Sony succeeds in these.

Re: Is there something Sony should be learning?

[gidds]

Sony's rootkit was absolutely unacceptable, but don't think Sony didn't already know that.

Actually, I suspect it didn't. Or at least (given that a corporation is NOT a single entity, no matter how much legal fiction would wish it otherwise) I suspect that most of the people actually involved in making this rootkit didn't consider it 'absolutely unacceptable'.

What you see of the world is affected by where you're looking from, probably far more so that most of us realise. Imagine you're a techie at Sony. Imagine that you believe in the company, that you like a lot of what they're doing and want them to succeed. (Yeah, you might need to use a lot of imagination, but that's the point!) Imagine that you see directly the harm that music sharing is doing (CDs that you worked on being shared for free), but that you don't know anyone who would do such a thing.

From that perspective, trying to prevent CDs being ripped and shared is very important. It's your job, but it's also something you see as a valid goal. You're not against fair use, but maybe you see it as an unfortunate casualty in the fight against sharing.

And then you come across this method which will prevent any Windows machine from being able to rip the CD, whilst still allowing it to be used perfectly well on normal CD players. It doesn't have any of the problems with previous methods, such as being easily defeated with black markers, or extreme sensitivity to scratches. CD players get the full, unharmed audio, and everyone's happy! Users won't even know it's there! And yet it fully protects the music you put on there.

Sounds ideal. Okay, it does mean fixing the Windows CD drivers. But that's okay; it shouldn't affect any normal use of the drive; it should simply protect your audio. What's the big problem with that? Why's there all this fuss about something that's harmless, that's just protecting the music from illegal copying?
___

Now, I've never worked for Sony, or been in anything remotely like that position, and I suspect most Slashdotters haven't either. But it's a really useful exercise to try looking at things from the opposite PoV. After that, I expect that most of the people who understood the technical details of this rootkit considered it justified, a valid defence against crime. And that most of the higher-ups who should have known better didn't understand enough of the technical details to see the implications.

Mind you, we're not free from bias, either. AIUI, this isn't a 'rootkit' in the usual sense of the word; doesn't calling it so instantly bring in all sorts of nasty associations?

Re:Is there something Sony should be learning?

[dal20402]

I used to be a huge Sony fanboy... they always had the most intuitive interfaces on consumer electronics, the best remote controls, and the best TV pictures, as well as the occasional wacky but totally innovative product like the WM-DD9 audiophile Walkman or the STR-GX1ES egg-control receiver.

But now I agree with parent, and it's pretty sad. The consumer electronics are overstyled, ordinarily engineered junk like we used to get from the likes of JVC. Some of the laptops have pretty designs, but they're flimsy and will be very hard to support in 5 years with their nonstandard hardware. And there's the bizarre ATRAC scheme and the rootkit.

The one piece of current (well, they still make a similar model) Sony hardware that I had to buy was an S-Master Pro digital amp (in a STR-DA5000ES receiver). It sounds fantastic -- better imaging than audiophile component setups costing thousands more. I probably better buy another one for when this one breaks, because at this rate Sony will manage to turn it to shit before long.

Re:Is there something Sony should be learning?

[plover]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with the "intuitive interface" statement, at least with respect to their digital camera line. Their menu systems are among the worst that I've ever had to use.

But yeah, their remote controls aren't too bad (a bit Sony-centric, but that's to be expected.) And their TV pictures are pretty good.

I gave up liking Sony products after my last CD/DVD player purchase. The player did not support VCD / SVCD, Picture CD or any other home-burned formats that had already become commonplace at that time. They have simply been heading in the DRM direction ever since before the MiniDisc came out, and I've frankly had it with them. The rootkit was the last straw -- I've completely stopped buying Sony anything, and when friends and family ask me to help buy their equipment, I'm even steering them away from Sony.

Anyway, they've outlived their value to me.

Re: Is there something Sony should be learning?

[plover]

A few comments: First, you make an excellent point about Sony wanting to protect their pointstuff. I imagine that the company internal newsletter reads something like "MUSIC PIRATES ROBBED YOUR 401K OF 10% THIS YEAR!" So yeah, they'd want to stop it.

Next, it wasn't even Sony employees who came up with the rootkit solution. It was an external company who sold it to them. I'm betting with you on this one, that most folks at Sony did not even understand the implications of what they had purchased -- they just bought a new "high-tech" protection system that hid itself.

However, I disagree with your last assertion. The protection scheme consisted of two parts, one of which was exactly the definition of a rootkit -- software that surrepetitiously modified the OS to hide its existence from everyone, including the OS itself. The installer even installed the rootkit prior to the acceptance of the EULA, and didn't uninstall if the EULA was not accepted. Calling it a rootkit brings in exactly the correct connotations. You should be absolutely outraged if you find it on your computer, and you should be appalled at a corporation that stoops to not only stealing part of your computer from you, but opens your computer up to other security weaknesses.

Maybe it is just me waking up

[hsmith]

But wtf is the question?

Re:Maybe it is just me waking up

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it isn't just you. That was pretty much incoherent rambling...

Re:Maybe it is just me waking up

[gEvil (beta)]

I truly hope that expro isn't a native English speaker. If he is, he really needs to go back to 7th grade English class to learn about sentence structure.

Re:Maybe it is just me waking up

[Scooter's_dad]

Maybe we should institute some kind of "potential gibberish" tag, just to give us all fair warning before we wade into a post like that and find ourselves mired in a morass.

Re:Maybe it is just me waking up

[khedron the jester]

I got a good phrase from IT Week one week (erm) about such sentences:

Does anybody know what this is supposed to mean? The words are all in my dictionary but this statement strings them together in such a way as to eliminate any real meaning.

Re:Fuck Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn, my scrotum itches.

Yeah, but don't they deserve it for how your ass feels from them fucking you?

Re:Fuck Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

First fuck YOU !!

Sony has lost it's edge

[Proudrooster]

Sony is now a bipolar company and should just split itself into two halves (content and electronics) so it can move on. If Sony take any longer to make decisions, the next wave of technology will come on go before the Bipolar Sony can make a decision on what technology to release. I divested myself of all Sony components quite awhile ago and have since stopped having flexibility problems with how I view/use my electroncs.

No matter what DRM, watermark, or token system they release will do nothing more than frustrate their consumer base. Many consumers are now feeling for burned by Sony that they will wait until the mid to trailing edge of the technology cycle to adopt it.

Re:Sony has lost it's edge

[OffTheLip]

Begrudgingly I made the same decision. Over 25 years ago I bought the original Sony Walkman and the engineering was inovative and exciting. For years Sony meant superior vision and engineering wonders. I own Sony camera's, TV, monitors, etc. but have reached the point of dumping Sony altogether. I don't know if it was the passing of Akio Morita or what but Sony has not been the same company of late. It's too bad really.

Re:Sony has lost it's edge

[thedletterman]

I have no idea what you are talking about 'losing its flexibility' can you give me some examples? Ever since Sony decided a few years ago to refocus their consumer electronics on the integration of their products to work seamlessly with each other, it's been like wonderland.

I don't see how the DRM scheme of blueray is going to "burn" me. I can still watch my movies with ease, and even my friends with DVD players can borrow them and watch them, thanks to dual layering allowing a DVD layer and a hi-def layer. The idea that preventing piracy is a barrier to preventing a consumer product from suceeding in the market is ridiculous.

Even still, it's been announced that inputs that do not support the blueray DRM scheme will receive a signal only downgraded to 1080i interlaced. So my HiDef media center PC will still be able to record and playback HiDef movies, where's the 'crippling'?

Re:Sony has lost it's edge

[Proudrooster]

No idea what I am talking about? I pulled this out of one of my previous slashdot postings.

Sony... the guys who brought us very expensive DVD players that wouldn't read CD-R/DVD+-R media (on purpose of course). This one really upset me. I couldn't play my DVD's slideshows and movies that I made on my computer on my Sony player.

Sony, the guys who brought us the Sony Memory Stick and Magic Gate copy protection aka "Slow and Lame."

Sony, the guys who just released the "iPOD Killer" that can't even play MP3's and requires converting them to Sony's proprietary format (because it's better right?).

Sony, the guys who make TV's that enforce macrovision so strictly that they sometimes don't work with DVD players and legal DVDs. Can anyone say, RF adaptor? Should one really need to purchase an RF adaptor just to get the Sony DVD player and Sony TV to work together? Jeez....

First and second generation HDTVs which won't play at full resolution with new devices because of what they call the "ANALOG HOLE".

Sony the guys who make video cameras that shutoff if accidentally pointed towards a TV screen playing a DVD (say during your child's birthday party).

Sony is capable of making a good product, but don't expect it to be flexible. If you use your Sony product as they deem you should use it (strictly buying their content), then you're fine. Stray outside the lines slightly and it will become a source of aggravation. I realize Sony has become more flexible lately because their electronics division has been suffering, but I will not forgive the sins of the past 4-5 years so easily due to the amount of hard earned cash that I feel was wasted. I will never buy into another proprietary Sony standard just because they want CONTROL nor will I buy another Sony device that doesn't allow what I consider "fair use". I really feel sorry for the people who have been buying with the Sony credit cards and now have accumulated Sony points.

Re:Sony has lost it's edge

[frogstar_robot]

>> I have no idea what you are talking about 'losing its flexibility' can you give me some examples?

MiniDisc would be one. Sony's idea of an "MP3 Player" was software that transcodes Atrac to MP3 in realtime for an MD player. In its time MiniDisc was a nicely engineered format. The physical media could hold quite a lot and the Atrac codecs weren't bad at all. But Sony was so petrified of piracy that they stymied the obvious PC applications. MD never succeeded in being more than a niche technology.

"MD drives" should have been out in the mid nineties. If Sony weren't totally myopic on the subject of piracy there never would have been SD and Zip disks, at least not successful ones. They also could have gotten one hell of a lot of the money that went to CD burners and blanks. Of course flash tech would have supplanted it too but it would have been a hell of a run. As it is, the market chose more flexible technologies.

I only knew one person who owned an MD player. He liked it but when technology moved on he did too.

Re:Sony has lost it's edge

[Troed]

Sony... the guys who brought us very expensive DVD players that wouldn't read CD-R/DVD+-R media (on purpose of course).

Bollocks. The Sony 715S was on the contrary one of the first high end DVD-players to both read CD-R and play VCD-content ...

Yes, I had one.

Re:Sony has lost it's edge

[Anonymous Coward]

where's the 'crippling'?

Humm... Just off the top of my head here are a few...

* Sony's great Minidisc technology crippled with their ridiculous DRM. I had a minidisc player that was such a pain in the ass to use I sold it.

* Sony's PSP game unit with their "Universal Media Disc" standard. There is nothing "Universal" about it. There are no writers to make a "Universal" Media Disc and only the PSP supports it.

* Sony's PSP game unit with their LocationFree streaming technology. There is no current way to stream MP4 compliant video clips from a PC to a PSP game unit. Although you can buy a $300 piece of hardware that allows you to stream non-PC video sources to only one PSP unit.

* Sony's willingness to lose video game marketshare to Microsoft and Nintendo because their beloved Blue Ray Disc DRM technology isn't yet finialized.

Oh, one more thing... Good luck watching blueray discs on your friends DVD players.

I'm not sure how exactly sony products are 'flexible' because the parent poster didn't site any examples. Making a DVD player that supports the DVD standard doesn't qualify in my book as being flexible.

Re:Sony has lost it's edge

[Troed]

Oh, one more thing... Good luck watching blueray discs on your friends DVD players. ... you mean, like "good luck watching dvd discs on your friend's cd-player"?

I fail to see your point. Please don't tell me you think HD DVD is in any way more (or less) backwards compatible with DVD than Blu-ray.

Re:Sony has lost it's edge

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not referring to HD DVD at all...

The original poster made this comment...

I don't see how the DRM scheme of blueray is going to "burn" me. I can still watch my movies with ease, and even my friends with DVD players can borrow them and watch them, thanks to dual layering allowing a DVD layer and a hi-def layer.

As far as I know, the new Blu-ray discs are one-sided with a triple layer structure comprised of an outside Blu-ray disc layer and inner DVD dual layer. So in theory a Blu-ray disc with standard DVD layers may work in DVD players but there are plenty of things to go wrong. Just like how many DVD+/-R's didn't work in older DVD players I wouldn't expect Blu-ray discs with regular DVD encodings to work in many of today's players (although I could be wrong...). That's what I meant by the comment "good luck getting it to work).

Re:Sony has lost it's edge

[Anonymous Coward]

I very much agree. The only piece of Sony equipment I have is an RB5 minisystem that I use as my computer speakers (which I enjoy very much). However, in the process of buying my home theater system, I tried a Sony receiver, DVD changer, TV and VCR. The receiver was brutally underpowered, and had a great deal of noise, the DVD changer hated to play anything on CDR, didn't support MP3s well, and had a noisy changer mechanism. The TV was OK, but I took it back because I couldn't stomach the price since othre brands were dropping in price rather quickly (Sony stopped producing conventional TVs that year, but there were no discounts). The VCR I found to have good playback quality, but poor recording (which is the only thing I bought it for).

In the long run, the receiver was replaced with a Yamaha, the DVD with a Pioneer, the TV is a Toshiba, and the VCR is a JVC. Sony was not my first and only choice (I tried a JVC receiver first for example), but I was pleased with the mini-system so much that Sony was my second choice if it wasnt my first. Given my experiences, I would say that any Sony product would have to have a VERY compelling feature to get me to try it again, and the store I buy it from better have an excellent return policy.

Re:Sony has lost it's edge

[thatguywhoiam]

Sony, the guys who just released the "iPOD Killer" that can't even play MP3's and requires converting them to Sony's proprietary format (because it's better right?).

Sony has not released any audio devices that use ATRAC in over a year.

Re:Sony has lost it's edge

[Proudrooster]

Sony has not released any audio devices that use ATRAC in over a year.

Imagine that... early adopters CONTROLLED by Sony. You made my point for me. When Sony first released their iPOD killer, they put their users through a long cumbersome conversion process which resulted in proprietary DRM'ed music filed. Sony then realized that their users wanted more. SONY seemed to get the message that as long as they were shoving the proprietary Sony music and DRM format down the throats of the consumer that sales were suffering.

Why didn't Sony allow MP3 playback from the beginning? Why did it take a year? Thankfully, you can update your firmware on the music player, but again it was a year of aggravation and frustration for the early adopters. For me, it is better not to buy Sony and I am much happier with my iPOD.

Re:Sony has lost it's edge

[Anonymous Coward]

MiniDisc should have replaced the floopy when it had the chance, but DRM killed that idea. On the whole, I still consider them more durable than these USB flash drives. It's time to become a bit more militant about putting an end to IP law once and for all. Meaning we need more anonymous developement and disclosures. It isn't and never was about protecting the innovators. It's about protecting a business model. We must not let one particular industry cripple another just to keep antiquated and corrupt businesses afloat. We can forget about getting the general public interested in things like this. It won't become a voting issue, especially with distractions like the "economy" and "terrorism". So, let's take the next step. Just take it underground and keep it there as long as necessary. This also means we need "bootleg" hardware developers. We already have meth labs and grow houses. What we need are underground chip labs. It's time people. It's time to end IP law. It's time to put blinders on the surveillance cameras. It's time to zap the bugs.

Re:Sony has lost it's edge

[Anonymous Coward]

> Sony the guys who make video cameras that shutoff if accidentally pointed towards a TV screen playing a DVD (say during your child's birthday party).

What do you mean ? Any links ?

Re:Sony has lost it's edge

[shotgunefx]

I got my sony handycam about two years ago and contains no such feature that I can tell.

Re:Sony has lost it's edge

[thatguywhoiam]

Imagine that... early adopters CONTROLLED by Sony. You made my point for me. When Sony first released their iPOD killer, they put their users through a long cumbersome conversion process which resulted in proprietary DRM'ed music filed. Sony then realized that their users wanted more. SONY seemed to get the message that as long as they were shoving the proprietary Sony music and DRM format down the throats of the consumer that sales were suffering.

But how does that prove that they have 'lost their edge'? It looks to me like they made a huge mistake, and now are correcting that position. (At least in hardware.) Believe me, I don't disagree about the iPod and all, and I witnessed the (almost unfathomably slow) MP3-ATRAC conversion at a friends house; what a fiasco. But recent signs seem to indicate an about-face, not more intransigence.

Re:Sony has lost it's edge

[Lord Flipper]

What we need are underground chip labs. It's time people. It's time to end IP law. It's time to put blinders on the surveillance cameras. It's time to zap the bugs.

Hey, AC, you just nailed the coolest idea, I've heard, in a long time. "Underground chip labs"...I like it...yeah. I'm probably too old, and almost certainly not educated enough to do this, myself, but I dearly hope that people pick it up, and fight back. yeah.

Re:Sony has lost it's edge

[thedletterman]

"I got my sony handycam about two years ago and contains no such feature that I can tell."

You ever tried using out that firewire port with your vaio laptop? have you hooked the av cables up to your Sony theater receiver or television? Getting it to work with the home theater is a no-brainer, but the firewire port isn't anything to scoff.

Re:Sony has lost it's edge

[shotgunefx]

Not sure what you're getting at.

I've pointing my camera at screens and haven't had it turn off. Not sure what that has to do with firewire or the original comment.

Are you saying it's on the software side or something?

Re:Sony has lost it's edge

[ccp]

I figure that the consensum here is that Sony is in a unique position as an schyzo corporation.

The customers, when aware of the issues, demand LESS DRM, but Sony Entertainment demands MORE DRM.
As a result, Sony's harware guys are having to fight on two fronts. They must battle competition and THEIR OWN content guys at the same time. Hardly a desirable position.

Their competition (Toshiba, Hitachi, JVC, you name it) is fighting unencumbered, and are tearing Sony to shreds.

And yes, they managed to reduce a first-tier consumer goods brand to also-ran status in just a decade.

The PS3 is vital to Sony's future. They need it to put a Blu-ray player in every living room in order to stay in the HD format war. If the PS3 is not a huge succes, they will be (are?) in big trouble.

Cheers,

Re:Sony has lost it's edge

[thedletterman]

Now I see what you're getting at. I've got a Sony DV-Handycam and I've never had that problem before. I was talking about using it in conjuction with other Sony products as far as seamless interoperatability goes. I don't see any good reason that videotaping a tv screen should produce those results. I can understand the DRM in movie theaters, but televisions? That's retarded. I don't know if that feature is still present, or if maybe I got lucky getting mine from Korea DRM free.

Digging a hole

[MrJack5304]

It seriously seems like everyday I come to /. Sony is digging themselves a bigger hole. But you know what, none of it will add up to them failing in the marketplace. The average consumer will never take the time to figure out just how much Sony is trying to screw them and they will all be suckered into buying blu-ray stuff just because of their PS3.

I hope the PS3 bombs and puts Sony out of the game. I am just waiting for them to really mess up (ie something that pisses off the average consumer).

Re:Digging a hole

[JordanL]

I really get a kick out of how the slashdot community seems to have this delusion that Sony is any worse than other content distribution companies... or that they can't seem to make any distinction between the different branches Sony has.

I'll remind you that Sony did in fact file a brief in favor of Grokster in MGM v. Grokster.

Analog Hole

[nurb432]

You act like having the ablity to copy things in an analog format is wrong or something.

Re:Analog Hole

[Anonymous Coward]

>You act like having the ablity to copy things in an analog format is wrong or something.

Yeah... I, for one, am happy that I'll be able to record audio via the anal-Ogg hole.

HINT, PEOPLE

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony is not rushing the PS3 out because it does not consider the xbox 360 a threat.
After all, they did much better than MS last time and MS had the more powerful machine. Even with the major power gap between the PS2 and the 360 they're still a player, they don't need to bring out PS3 at the moment. Also they're a Japan-centric company, in Japan (where I currently am, this isn't just forum bullshit) the PS2 is still king console and the 360 isn't doing well at all. Final Fantasy 12 is the game here.

(p.s. Nintendo fanboy, = neutrality :)

Re:HINT, PEOPLE

[sqlrob]

The difference between the PS2 and the XBox though is that the PS2 came out first. The power is almost irrelevant, it's who has the better games. The PS3 is going to need a strong launch lineup to compete.

Re:HINT, PEOPLE

[Anonymous Coward]

That's very nearly what I said. However, you don't quite understand.
As we both said, the game library is the most important feature, not the power.
The PS 2 has a much better library than the xbox 360.
Therefore Sony doesn't care about the 360 and will bring the PS3 out in its own sweet time.

The PS 3 will be PS 2 compatible. There is no stronger launch line-up than that out there, unless you made a console that could play both Playstation and Nintendo games... The PS2's ability to play PS1 games and DVDs were also killer features.

p.s. hate to say it, but dreamcast was first anyway...

What's the Problem?

[WebScud]

The first eight Sony blu-ray discs will play in full resolution over componet cables. That's an awesome standing on copy protection sonsidering HDCP is suppose to kill the resolution for any analog singal.

Re:What's the Problem?

[Dantu]

The problem is
>The first eight Sony blu-ray discs..

Joe Consumer: So this blu-ray thing will work with my stuff?

Sales: Of course, it even comes with [less-protected disc], bring it back if it doesn't work.

Joe Consumer buys the player and then wonders why everything except that first disc looks like crap.

Re:What's the Problem?

[Scooter's_dad]

The first eight Sony blu-ray discs will play in full resolution over componet cables.

The first few samples from a drug dealer are always free too. Once you get hooked, it's a different story...

Re:What's the Problem?

[WebScud]

Honestly guys. Give creidt to Sony for taking the right step there. Just becuase they've made mistakes in the past doesn't mean you should slam them for something good.

Re:What's the Problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, I always hear this, but I've never gotten free drugs unless the dealer was a friend of mine. Sometimes they'll front, or give you a tiny sample if you have the intention to buy, but they never give out freebies.

Yeah, but out of HD-DVD or BR-DVD...

[Fallen Kell]

... I would rather it be BR-DVD that wins the fight. Especially since they are the only ones to announce that they will support full 1080i over component (at least for the time being). Once they start supporting something like that, they will be able to clearly see the number of people they were going to screw if and when they try to test using only DVI/HDMI+HDCP connections. I predict a decent amount of complains of "This movie looks like crap", or "Why is the picture so horrible on this movie?", etc., kind of reactions which will spread around and people will not buy it because of poor quality causing the sales of said movie to bomb. Other movie producers etc., will see that statistic and say "Hell no you can't release that movie crippled like that"....

Re:Yeah, but out of HD-DVD or BR-DVD...

[NutscrapeSucks]

Sorry, but this is just incorrect. HD-DVD will also "support" HD over component.

In fact both systems are the same deal -- whether you can use component HD is up to the DRM policy that the studio stamps onto the disk.

This just goes to show...

[aXis100]

That CowboyNeal is either drunk, or has a telepathic monkey typing for him.

Seriously, could we have that article again in english please?

Re:This just goes to show...

[dukerobinson]

Why is the above comment marked flamebait? The article abstract was poorly written. Who could deny it? Especially the sentence phrased as a question that changed subject 3 times, and then going on to not be a question at all.

Devkits in June! Truth is Cell and tools are late.

[guidryp]

This is just a convenient excuse. If you read the statements. The dev Kits are only going out in June!. This mean everything is behind, not just DRM which has no effect on games development. Further Blu-Ray players are also due in that timeframe and all the AACS discussions are over and finalized already. You don't even need a Blu Ray drive for Dev Kit and I bet even the final dev kits don't have one.

Sony is late with everything most likely the Cell processors and the programming tools for it. DRM is just a smokescreen, handy because really did have issues with both HD/BD getting it finalized, but it is now.

But in Sonys case it is a very stupid excuse, give the rootkit problems. Many people will percieve this is Sony being late so they can figure out new ways to screw us over with DRM. They really need new marketing droids before they release lame excuses like this.

This isn't the first time...

[therage96]

I wouldn't count on this to change Sony's attitude. After all, this is the second time they have seriously dropped the ball when it came to market in which they didn't already dominate.

There were many times before the arrival of the Ipod that Sony had the best looking Mp3 players, and they always seemed to have the features I wanted. However, they made the idiotic move of making a user convert all of his songs to the ATRAC3 format. Seriously, who wants to deal with that crap? So what happens? Smaller players move in and dominate.

Re:This isn't the first time...

[dk20]

i use to be a big sony fan.. right up until i bought myself a "netmd" player.. Anyone remember thoes evil devices? I think they spent more time on DRM then they did in making the software work. I quickly dumped the CRAP sonic (or whatever it was called) software in favor of real audio. Cant count the number of times the software hung so badly i had to reboot. the netmd could have been a great device, IF it worked properly. Alas, i dumped my NetMD in favor of an ipod. SONY, if you write MP3 on the box, then you should take MP3's.. it doesnt mention i need to wait some 40 minutes sometimes to convert MP3 to ATRAC3. Sony use to be a leader in technology, but since decided to focus on giving the consumers what they dont want instead (rootkits, overly sensitive DRM, etc) This whole PSP3 thing smells of NetMD/DAT all over again. Speaking of which, anyone remember DAT (digitial audio tape) and why it died?

Re:This isn't the first time...

[Cadallin]

Eh? DAT didn't die, as a professional format. It remained THE standard digital recording format for it's entire lifetime, and its legacy lives on to this day in quite a number of popular digital recording solutions. Particularly ADAT stuff from Alesis. DAT didn't catch on in the consumer realm for the same reason as SA-CD, and DVD-A, Consumers are FUCKING TONE DEAF. Remember, these are the same people that think 128kbps MP3 is CD-quality sound.

That's why DAT didn't take off as a consumer format. Because it turns out that only audiophiles, who are a tiny percentage of the market anyway, are the only consumer group that buys higher quality music. Outside that group the only people who even give a damn are Audio Engineers working in studios, which is why studios see a steady progreesion in recording quality, as technology allows.

Please note, I'm no Sony apologist, I've seen their quarterly the numbers, they're floating a huge number of losses on their Digital Entertainment division, the PS2, and if the PS3 flops the way I think it might, they are in DEEP shit.

Content

[mabu]

The irony is that most of today's media: games and movies aren't worth playing/watching, much less making back-up copies.

Re:Content

[LiquidCoooled]

I guess thats just personal taste though isn't it?

I mean, there are THOUSANDS of bollywood movies I wouldn't consider watchable/recordable/copyable/piratable, however there are enough people around who DO like them and watch them and will pay for them and pirate them for the studios to worry.

Re:Content

[TubeSteak]

Ya know, I bet people have been saying that since the invention of paper and ink.

Monk 1: "Why good brother Monk, this manuscript isn't worth reading, much less transcribing word by word so that we might have a back up copy."
Monk 2: "Shut up fellow Monk, the Vicar has demanded copies and copies he shall get."

There's two reasons you argument is shoddy at best.

First, there have always been people pumping out shitty content that isn't worth watching/playing/hearing, much less making a copy of.

Second, did it ever occur to you that maybe you just haven't found content worth playing or watching? Maybe your criteria are too narrow. Broaden your horizons (step outside your comfort zone) and you might find something you like.{/Rant]

Re:Content

[mabu]

Suffice to say there's always been mediocre content.

However, if you look at mainstream media: news, music and radio stations, movies and television shows, you CONSISTENTLY find that the best produced products, in virtually EVERY GENRE are mostly outside the edges of commercial media. From HBO to Comedy Central, to most musical acts that are on mainstream radio sucking huge and all sounding like the same whiny gen-x'er losers who are using the same music production software to compress the shit out the tracks done by samples and session guys. It's all shit mainly. You are right about one thing... all the good stuff is out [of the mainstream] comfort zone.

Re:Content

[Anonymous Coward]

Same as ever. Elvis was not in "the mainstream comfort zone". Nor was Picasso.

The mainstream is lowest common denominator, and therefore can't be very good. Always has been, always will be.
It's a shame that people can't easily appreciate greatness... it's understandable, to know an artwork is good often takes effort (to understand its history at least to the extent of seeing if it's derivative), and effort is a limited commodity.

Still, no big deal, it's only entertainment after all.

Re:Microsoft? Who knew!

[Second_Derivative]

HURR

Nobody ever explained to me why Microsoft would inherently give a damn about DRM. As far as I know, it's the content industry that says "chain up people's PCs or we won't release high defenition material at all".

Microsoft's actual anti-piracy efforts have been a token effort at best, especially when you consider that MS actually depends a lot on penetrating developing countries with its pirated software. All other things being equal, I seriously doubt they'd give a shit less about implementing something technically very thorny and that just makes your software a pain in the ass to use.

Only reason X360 and Xbox have copy protection is to ensure developers actually pay licensing fees and don't just release software for their loss-making hardware without paying. It's got very little to do with piracy.

pointless

[joe 155]

You can spend all the money in the world creating DRM, but within a month of it being released someone will break it... the 360 seemed to be getting cracked without too much trouble and the same will happen to the PS3. The fact is very few people copy console games and there isn't a huge market for them. Most piracy is done by people in their own homes and if you make it slightly difficult to download an ISO and then burn it (just with the most simple protection) then the average user won't be bothered to spend the 5 mins it would take to break it. The best solution for Sony would be to have a very lax DRM, bring down the price of the games to around £25 for a new game (which they could probably fund partly through not having to waste loads on DRM). I bet their sales woul;d increase dramatically and their efficiency also.

Re:pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly, this isn't true. Apple's FairPlay was broken for a while, but since iTunes 6, there hasn't been a version of Hymn that could rip out the DRM.

Then again, I've stopped buying from iTunes for that same reason.

Re:pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to add more coke to the lines on the media industry's tables but...

In the 90s, black bottomed CDRs were sold at many computer shows for the express purpose of copying the original Playstation's software. All opportunity cost arguments (ie "pirates wouldn't buy anyway") aside, there was a considerable trade in these backups.

Nintendo was the smart one here, when you really think about it. It takes an awful lot of abuse to wreck either a ROM cartridge or a solid state computer. If they'd only made the batteries easier to replace (ie using watch batteries), it would've been an ideal situation. Screw the rest of you and the horses you rode in on.

See, the real problems with DRM as it stands are 1) easily corrupted media that can't be backed up and 2) busybody companies forcing where, when, and how that content can be played.

If we would simply go to some affordable cartridge-like media with a universal format, I guarantee that not only would piracy disappear overnight but sales would probably go up as alot of the FUD would disappear with it.

What they will never learn

[erroneus]

They will never learn the idea of "enough profit" or "too much."

The stark reality that has always been out there for everyone to see is simply that MOST people are willing to spend their money of "official" copies of their favorite entertainment. This means they'll watch the movie and if they like it, they'll buy the DVD. If they hear the song and like it, they'll buy the CD. This pattern (I have no studies to back this up... it's just my observation) fits the vast majority of consumer out there.

So then the question comes up, "...that's fine, but what about the REAL pirates who attempt to counterfeit and sell to a public who thinks they are buying 'official' copies?" GO AFTER THEM to the fullest extent of the law. I doubt that anyone would fail to support legal/criminal action against those activities. But the 'copy protection' that exists today and is likely to exist tomorrow will not thwart those pirates, but it goes a long way to inconvenience their paying consumers.

So far, they have mostly gotten away with it. Sony didn't get a black eye from the back-door infecting CDs... I'd liken it more to a minor abrassion if even that. The majority of the buying public never noticed and still have never even HEARD of Sony's stunt.

I believe there is such a thing as "enough profit" and they should recognize it for their own benefit as well as their consumers. It has been demonstrated that big business often consider government fines, liability lawsuits and other costs associated with survival in a litigeous society as "a common business expense." I believe they should stop viewing casual or civilian copying as a threat to their business model because I would believe (again, no supporting facts) that the legals costs, the costs of product delays, the costs of lost fandom, the cost of development of 'protective measures' and the COSTS OF SUPPORTING LEGISLATION far outweigh any potential losses they might consider lost due to civilian copyright infringement.

(I also believe they know this... I believe their aims are a little bigger than they will admit and it's likely something along the lines of price fixing, monopolistic control and that sort of thing.)

Re:What they will never learn

[goldspider]

They will never learn the idea of "enough profit" or "too much."

That's because there's no such thing. They are a publicly traded company; they are required to maximize stock value to shareholders.

Instead of trying to convince the industries to abandon a business strategy that has so far been very successful, perhaps it would be more worthwhile to educate consumers on how these companies are ripping them off.

After all, they're the ones who keep buying this crap and perpetuating the system.

Re:What they will never learn

[iminplaya]

We have this weird idea in our economy that it must grow or expand to be viable. Mere stability is a bad thing. It is believed that if the economy doesn't expand, it will stagnate and die. So there can never be enough. Every year it's a new gimmick, contraption, whatever. Planned obsolescence is a necessity. IP law helps in that the "old and lousy" that was replaced with the "new and improved" is still protected and can't be touched. Windows 3.1 on a 386 is still adequate for many people, but where can you get a legal copy? Who's making 386s? Nobody but Intel is allowed to, and of cousre that stinks. The world could have $25 computers if not for laws like these. So yes, they have to go after the pirates in order to force us to buy the latest piece of junk. There is only one thing on their minds. Cash flow. Every thought that's thunk revolves around that.

Re:What they will never learn

[mabhatter654]

of couse what they miss is the fact that commercial pirates are usually working with professional recording hardware anyway... probably "borrowing" time or equipment from the actual producers of the ones we buy at the store. They just run a few "extras" for spending money. Of course the content industry can't get their OWN guild members to take piracy seriously, look at all the leaked Oscar * Grammy discs. They can't get directors and producers to keep media "secret" from their own housing staff... how do they expect to solve the internet problem???

Re:What they will never learn

[erroneus]

Actually, you're 100% correct about that. I recall several years ago this was a major problem with places that contract to produce DVDs and CDs for the big names out there. From 9 - 5 they were producing legitimate copies and after that, some time in the dark of night, they were producing the same stuff again, but without being tracked and accounted for.

I don't know how common this is TODAY, but I know at one time, it was way too frequent.

Re:The underlying problem is still piracy.

[Stripe7]

Underlying problem is not piracy. DRM in Blu-Ray is not about piracy. Pirates do not care at all about resolution, they are content with VCD quality movies. They will not buy the movies nor will they watch it at the theaters. Its all about charging the people who do buy the movies multiple times for the same movie. ie Make sure that you pay for a version that plays on your PSP as well as for the copy you play at home, and pay extra for being able to put it on your own home network. It is also about controlling the market and keeping competitors out of the market.

How much are PS3 games going to cost?

[Kittie Rose]

One of the things that kept the N64 as the Playstation's underdog was the sheer price of the media, putting off developers and potential purchasers. Blu-Ray is set to be even more awkward than that. While it does offer a Blu-Ray player as well most people won't be that interested in the switch. I for one am happy with DVD for the time being, and would rather wait a few years for technology, that's a balance between added quality with all the new technology that will be discovered, and price, by not using the "Best of the best" like Blu-Ray is.

There are so many Bullet Holes in Sony's foot right now, if they were anyone else but Sony(perhaps even Microsoft), they'd be screwed.

Betamax Revisited

[PyrotekNX]

Sure Betamax was a superior technology compared to VHS, but who won that war? Now they have Bluray. Sure it's a good idea, but Sony is already fumbling the format. It does not matter how good a technology is if the consumers aren't willing to adopt it. DRM takes quite a bit of processing time compared to non-copyprotected media. What does that mean to consumers? Since DRM takes more CPU time and memory, the hardware required to play a DRM'd movie will have to be that much quicker to operate. The faster and more sophisticated the hardware is, the more expensive it will be to us. These units also have a higher energy draw, about 25% more. This is just part of the hidden costs. DRM software doesn't invent itself. It takes a lot of time to develop the software, distribute it, etc etc. Time=Money. This cost is of course passed on to the consumer.

Now lets got to the real issue here. Which will consumers prefer? An expensive, poorly designed piece of technology, or something that is no more difficult to adopt than what they currently have. Most computers have issues playing non-DRM protected HDTV content let alone one that is. I bought the new special edition Terminator II that had the metal case and the high-def version. My computer was brand new at the time and it wouldn't even play it because of the DRM.

So what new format will we choose to distribute the next generation of media? Will it be Bluray or HD-DVD? Maybe neither! There are competing technologies out there that are capable of high-def right now without the need of clunky, ill-deigned DRM software. There's Xvid, DivX, etc, why PAY for proprietary forms of media you can't even bring to your SO's apartment to watch? That was the beauty of VHS, you could record stuff off of tv CHEAPLY, there was ONE format in video stores.

All of this just leads to confusion for the consumer. The new DVD format should piggyback on the old technology and be founded on OPEN standards. History will repeat itself with Sony's proprietary formats. Early adopters of Bluray will be throwing out their money. It will be at least 5 years before HD is fully mainstream. The majority of the movies out there will not benefit from being in HD.

Do you honestly think seeing Gone With the Wind will be better in HD?

Re:Betamax Revisited

[thatguywhoiam]

Sure Betamax was a superior technology compared to VHS, but who won that war?

Sony lost the home format but won the broadcast-level market and holds it to this day. Betacam SP has been the industry standard for production for many years, only recently supplanted by newer digital efforts (and even those are still in their infancy).

You make a fine point, but it is worth mentioning that while Sony lost the living room, they won the studio.

Re:Betamax Revisited

[_xeno_]

Why do you think Sony is pushing so hard for Blu-Ray in the PS3? It's certainly not because they expect it will sell more games. They're willing to endanger their console dominance for the Blu-Ray drive.

Their plan is simple. They're hoping that the PS3 will sell as well as the PS2 did. You're right - there's very little reason to buy an HDTV movie player right now. However, there is a large market for next-gen consoles. They're hoping to capitalize on the PlayStation's success and, at the same time, get a large number of Blu-Ray players out at the same time.

If they succeed, they'll have a large install base of people who have PS3s and, therefore, Blu-Ray players. When a PS3 owner eventually winds up getting an HDTV in the next several years, which format are they going to choose? The one that requires the new player? Or the one that they already have a player for?

That's their hope. Use the PS3 to win the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD "war."

Re:Betamax Revisited

[westlake]

Since DRM takes more CPU time and memory...

This is simply a replay of yesterday's FUD-fest over DMA and battery life on the iPod.

The new DVD format should piggyback on the old technology and be founded on OPEN standards.

There are a half-dozen or so manufactuers world-wide with the financial backing, engineering talent and production lines needed to make HD hardware mass-market.

There are a half-dozen or so content providers whose backing you must have if your HD product is to be commercially viable. If Disney isn't on that list, you are as good as dead.

The game is closed to the little-league player.

Do you honestly think seeing Gone With the Wind will be better in HD?

Hell, yes. Have you ever seen a pristine technicolor print in large screen projection? Fort Apache in B&W?

Re:Betamax Revisited

[jimicus]

Beta went digital years ago. Same form factor for the tapes, but the data they've held has been digitally captured, stored and processed for years. Punch "digibeta" into Google and see what comes back.

Don't believe the hype.

[i41Overlord]

This "delay" is nothing more than Sony realizing that it would make much more money by releasing an eagerly anticipated new product during the peak Christmas buying season instead of releasing it during post-Christmas spring or the summer doldrums.

Re:Don't believe the hype.

[Anonymous Coward]

If that were true they'd still have a spring launch in Japan. They love Sony over there, and would buy them like crazy no matter what the season.

Happy...

[Anonymous Coward]

post-Saint Patrick's day to you too. :-)

But seriously, yes, if I understand your question correctly (I had to read it twice), it is an interesting one. Maybe the biggest market for Blu-ray won't actually be new media on Blu-ray, but the ability to copy current media onto the new format easily? It wasn't really much of an issue for VHS tape->DVD because the first players were read-only, and it was several years before writable media and drives were available at modest cost, yet alone the "Joe user" level of simplicity (i.e. plugging the VCR outputs into a DVD recorder rather than through a computer), which was many years later. By contrast, this time writable systems are going to be available promptly, and most people who buy them will probably have a DVD player already.

I think you might be right. It could be a major issue, because Blu-ray will have to provide backwards compatibility, and how to provide that while somehow protecting content would be difficult. If it was just providing ordinary legacy DVD support, no problem. But if you've seen the obscene, standards-violating tricks that companies have started using on DVDs to try to protect them (analogous to the corruption tricks on audio CDs), it would be a nightmare to retrofit this in, and people are going to insist 100% capability to play their old DVDs. Then you have to support Macrovision's encoding schemes, and so on. Never mind the fact that copying the old media onto new would be *entirely*legal* , the movie companies will probably try their best to force hardware companies to prevent it in any form, all in the name of "stopping piracy".

Support quirky old protection schemes while enabling compatibility *AND* implementing new protection schemes with an entirely new technology? And Sony has to worry about its OWN content (Sony Entertainment) working, because it would be very embarassing to not have some of it work on their own player.

Man, I wouldn't want to be on that development team.

Re:The underlying problem is still piracy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Brilliant!

The /bots are going to explode.

Re:Devkits in June! Truth is Cell and tools are la

[PygmySurfer]

That's funny, if the dev kits are going out in June, what've companies been developing on all this time? I'm curious where you've even read that, as the article mentions nothing about dev kits.

If I remember correctly the story a few months ago about that artist who was fired for slamming the PS3 made some comments on the dev kits his team was using to develop their next gen titles.

Re:The underlying problem is still piracy.

[Scooter's_dad]

...such as the "wink wink" 'backing up my DVDs' nonsense of the submitter...

I have a two year old daughter. She's fond of Monster's Inc., Yellow Submarine and those damned Baby Einstein DVDs. She's also fond of touching the disks themselves. I own legally purchased store-bought copies of all the aforementioned titles. You think my desire to back them up is nonsense? Now THAT's nonsense!

Laws require widespread public acceptance.

[Anonymous Coward]

In order for a law to be effective, it requires widespread public acceptance. While there may be individuals here and there who disagree with it, and a few others who outright violate it, a truly necessary law will be accepted and followed by a very large portion of the general populace.

We clearly see that that is not the case with modern copyright law in many nations. For whatever reason, a very large segment of society does not respect such legislation.

You suggest that the law is fundamentally correct, even if many people within the society to do not follow it. On the contrary! The mere fact of so many people disregarding it shows that it is legislation that is not truly necessary.

Infact, the widespread lack of acceptance may indicate that such laws are unwanted by society as a whole, and thus should be eliminated from the books.

Re:Laws require widespread public acceptance.

[mumblestheclown]

the problem with your idiotic view is that it shows that you have not the basic knowledge of anything related to economics.

It is obvious that in matters of IP, each individual has an incentive to pirate. After all, this means that every person gets something for free at the expense of the others (the payer). it's like pollution: if everybody else is 'clean' and you pollute (such that the total pollution is tiny), then the situation is fine. furthermore, since your polluting factory is cheaper to operate than a clean one, you make more money.

The problem is, that if everybody acts like this, you have mass pollution. therefore, the only reasonable alternative is to penalize people caught polluting.

And please don't even try the "but IP goods are nonrivalrous" bullshit (even if you knew what that meant). That is clearly not the case over the long term as is obvious to anybody who has looked at innovation and publishing rates in markets where strong IPR exists vs those where it does not.

Re:The underlying problem is still piracy.

[scuba0]

See, here is one that has understood the real problem with piracy. I really hope the regular consumers realises this too before we have been overwelmed with DRM-damaged products.

Faith is gone

[JSchwage]

Well, that's the last straw. I've lost all my faith in Sony. First rootkits, now they have to delay the release of the PS3 due to it's DRM crap not being ready. Personally, I think DRM on video games is one of the most stupid ideas I've ever heard of. Soon we will have no freedom to do what we want to with our media.

Re:Devkits in June! Truth is Cell and tools are la

[iapetus]

Sorry, but you're wrong on a number of points there.

From Sony's presentation at the recent PS3 announcement:

Loaned Dev Tool Delivery Schedule
Apr - DEH-R103X
Cell Final
RSX Final
BD-Drive Proto
Controller Proto

May/Jun - DEH-R104X (Final)
Cell Final
RSX Final
BD-Drive Final
Controller Final

So, the final dev kit is most likely going out before June (the slide shows it on a timeline somewhere between May and June), the final Cell and RSX are in the earlier releases of the devkit and there is a Blu Ray drive in the final dev kit (a no-brainer, really - I'm amazed you thought it wasn't necessary).

They also set out a timeline for dev tools, which again shows Jun as the date for the final 1.0 version, but most major tools being ready by the April dev kit release (the only exception being network code, which might be a more likely culprit for those looking for a conspiracy theory to explain the 'delay' of the release...)

Re:The underlying problem is still piracy.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm inclined to agree with this. IMO, Sony has very little concern for the customer. And I use the instead of their because Sony doesn't even treat the consumer like a customer. The customer should get the benefit of the doubt. But anyhow, there is no bullshit when people want to back up a single copy for themselves. I have a HUGE problem with getting scratches on my cds. This is mainly due to overuse in the in car and over a period of time, but eventually I have a cd that is not even playable in my car. THIS is one of the MANY issues that intelligent consumers have with DRM. A friend of mine was smart enough to make a back up of his Meterora cd when it came out. He used the backup instead and kept the mint one in the cd case at home. Something I should have done...now due to use in the car the cd has some scratches and skips in parts. You know Sony and many other companies could CHOOSE to FIX this problem(scratches) by simply creating cds much in the way they did for MD (minidisc). I thought the idea to incase the actual disc was a brillant idea. Although many consumers thought otherwise because the minidisc is basically dead. I still see them for sale in Best Buy, but those shelf spaces are slowly disappearing. Granted this doesn't explain most of the piracy, but its at least the reasons of a few people I know. At least Apple is somewhat better at Sony in this dept. Granted all you are doing is trading one evil for another. Hell the reason I bought a Zen is that very fact you don't have to jump thru crazy ass hoops to get your music on your player. All I do is find my mp3s and plop them on no issues. I love my zen. Granted if they had the circle button it would make things simpler, but that is not a neccesity.

SONY is a hydra

[thatguywhoiam]

Some of you guys have a very strange understanding of Sony, but that is kind of expected, as Sony is a strange entity in and of itself.

Let me illustrate with an example: Sony regularly names Sony as a defendant in copyright lawsuits.

Sony Corporation is: several mini-divisions of Sony Electronics (Walkmans, stereo gear, camcorders, TVs, phones, not to mention an entire division dedicated to pro-level broadcast hardware and Betacam SP); a large media arm in Sony-BMG Music Group which has its own problems, Sony's movie studio - again, schizo in performance but huge and sprawling; Sony's various software divisions (SCE*), in NA, Japan, and Europe; 'online' or SonyConnect verisons for each of those again...not to mention weirdo initiatives like Sony Ericsson (very successful)...

You see where I'm going with this. Here's an article that does a good job summing it up.

It is pointless to discuss an entity called SONY as if it were a coherent entity. It is more like the EU. Very competitive, aligned loosely, but basically all fighting each other tooth and nail for internal dominance, which usually translates to external dominance. This has been Sony's culture for a long time, only recently changing under their new CEO (a Welsh guy, another first for the corporation).

If you ask Sony's hardware guys about the iPod, most of them will readily concede that they were soundly thrashed by Apple. iPod is the new Walkman, no doubt. Sony could have competed with Apple if they didn't have the content arms sniping at them throughout the development process (and also if they had let go of certain insane engineers who loved minidisc a little too much).

So when you guys are boycotting Sony products - a principal I do not disagree with - I do have to wonder a little if you know exactly what you are boycotting. Sony-BMG are bastards, I deal with them all the time and they really just are the epitome of the 'evil record label'. Sony hardware is a completely different entity, and they more or less hate Sony-BMG as well. When you stop buying Sony TVs and whatnot, you are actually punishing the guys who are (now somewhat successfully) pushing against the DRM in the hardware. They hate this shit, and they know what consumers want (mostly...). DRM comes from the media arms, and its dictating product design inside Sony, and that is the battle.

What I am saying is, you need the carrot and the stick. Don't buy Sony-BMG music, they cam eup with the rootkit. DO buy those Sony products that are free of DRM. The message will be clear. I have a Sony Ericsson phone (W600i) and it does not have any DRM for loading and playing music, short of the veil necessary to keep you from beaming pre-canned content into other phones. it actually is the iTunes phone that everyone wanted, and no one shipped, including Motorola/Apple. My iTunes collection, all uninfected MP3 and AAC, loads (both directions) and plays beautifully.

Sony Electronics has typically kept the underperforming divisions from showing up more drastically on the balance sheet (PS2) but they are suffering now as well. Let's hope the hardware guys win over the media guys.

Re:SONY is a hydra

[ilyanep]

That's very enlightening. If I had mod points atm, I'd give you a + Informative.

Re:SONY is a hydra

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I have been boycotting Sony Electronics products for > 10 years because of their lower quality/reliability and higher prices than other brands. The Sony store also has the worse return policy among electronic retailers.

Re:SONY is a hydra

[djmurdoch]

What I am saying is, you need the carrot and the stick. Don't buy Sony-BMG music, they cam eup with the rootkit. DO buy those Sony products that are free of DRM. The message will be clear.

I understand what you're saying, but I think the message will be even clearer if I just don't buy anything from any part of Sony. Maybe it's only Sony-BMG that is bad, but they've degraded the name. Sony Electronics should drop the name "Sony" if it doesn't want to take responsibility for the actions of other users of that name.

Re:SONY is a hydra

[stickb0y]

If you ask Sony's hardware guys about the iPod, most of them will readily concede that they were soundly thrashed by Apple. iPod is the new Walkman, no doubt. Sony could have competed with Apple if they didn't have the content arms sniping at them throughout the development process (and also if they had let go of certain insane engineers who loved minidisc a little too much).

And also note that if it weren't for trying to protect the music division's interests, minidisc players might have been able compete against the iPod from the beginning before the iPod managed to make inroads. Minidiscs could have taken off worldwide, but Sony's crippling of them ultimately prevented that.

Re:SONY is a hydra

[kcarlin]

SONY is a brand name. Brand names carry with them reputation, that is their entire function. When Toshiba made a decision to sell US submarine propeller secrets to the Soviets in the late 70's, or Nestle launched a campaign to convince third world mothers that formula was better than breast feeding, those brands were tarnished and they stopped finding their way into my purchasing decisions. "Sony" could have decided to disassociate the brand from the rootkit decision in any number of ways, they have not. As for Sony-BMG, there are some wonderful training films available regarding the appropriate procedure for atonement that should resonate culturally for them. Search the Torrent under "John+Belushi+Samurai".

Re:SONY is a hydra

[thatguywhoiam]

I understand what you're saying, but I think the message will be even clearer if I just don't buy anything from any part of Sony. Maybe it's only Sony-BMG that is bad, but they've degraded the name. Sony Electronics should drop the name "Sony" if it doesn't want to take responsibility for the actions of other users of that name.

Sure, that makes sense, but only from a human perspective. From a corporate view, money talks the loudest. If they noticed a sharp downward spike in all DRM'd products, they will know that this is not acceptable hardware. Across-the-board lower sales would leave that question open.

Here's a hypothetical: if Sony came out with a great MP3 player tomorrow that was actually open source software, with a documented extensible spec, plays Ogg Stupidname and all other penguin-related crap, was cheap and worked almost as nicely as an iPod with an equivalent spec.... which is the better way to get your point across: would you want to support that kind of development, rather than watch it languish? Or, would you not buy it just because it said SONY on it, to spite that ridiculous rootkit stunt that the retards (no offense to retards) over in the music arm pulled?

Re:SONY is a hydra

[thatguywhoiam]

"Sony" could have decided to disassociate the brand from the rootkit decision in any number of ways, they have not.

I understand your point about paying a price for irresponsible actions in the marketplace, but really the only thing they can do is retract discs in a prompt manner (which they did not) and try to mitigate and apologize. The brand has way too much invested in it to just abandon it.

Besides, would you really have given them a free pass if the timeline had gone like: SONY rootkit discovered, SONY Corporation sued, SONY Corporation announces that it has sullied its good name forevermore and will now be known as PurpleMonkeyDishwasher? It would look exactly like they were trying a brand change to avoid blame even if it were possible, like the tobacco company that changed its name to the nice breezy-sounding Altria.

Re:SONY is a hydra

[djmurdoch]

Personally, I wouldn't buy it because of the name, and I'd advise anyone who asked not to buy it either. I just don't trust them. Sony has lied before, how would I know they were telling the truth this time?

Re:SONY is a hydra

[chromozone]

Thanks that was interesting. I have two fairly new Sony DVD drives: one is a gem and the other is a dog. Only recently did I discover the dog was a re-badged Lite-On and the Gem was a re-badged BenQ. Not only is Sony a hydra but a house of mirrors as well. Sony music has been known to be sleazy since at least when Tomy Mottola ran it. I wasn't surprised at all when they did the root kit biz.

Re:SONY is a hydra

[kcarlin]

PurpleMonkeyDishwasher, isn't that KPMG's new name? SONY Corporation isn't likely to run away from the brand unless their customers come to understand what a gross violation of trust this moronic and dangerous DRM approach was. Most of the victims will likely never connect their outcome (stolen credit card numbers, mysterious bank wire transfers, pedophile targeting, spyware, zombie spambotism, etc.) to SONY. The .0001% that are /. regulars might make the connection, or an anti-corporation zealot with too much time on their hands, but the world at large is clueless about what a rootkit is and what it does. And that is why SONY thinks they can minimize and hand wave the whole episode away and EFF has helped them with a rushed and bogus "class-action" settlement. (EFF blew away a decade worth of good will and occasional contribution in my household with this one. I'm part of a family, and spend too much time protecting perfectly bright and accomplished friends and family members from the negligence and predations of "consumer" technology to "give a pass" to a company that schemes up new ways to help the black hats. That "settlement" serves SONY and EFF and noone else.)

But running away from the brand is not the only way to insulate other divisions and protect the brand. Scourging the rogue division would be a start. SONY Electronics issuing an explicit assurance that they are much to savvy and customer oriented to shoot themselves in the foot like that, and now that issues have surfaced are providing expert consultants to those doofus SONY-BMG people might also be a part of a sound get well policy. It is in the interest of all of the divisions to protect the name. And, yes, the CEO and CTO at SONY-BMG should be gone. It will only take a handful of discoveries of real victims that even "may" include Sony DRM as a contributing factor to drive a stake right through the heart of the SONY brand name. They can minimize the risk by executive firings or by selling the SONY-BMG operation to Rhino, or some other proven content provider. They can minimize the risk by moving proactively to mitigate the damage done.

As long as SONY takes the "They're too stupid to understand so we can slime out of this" approach I will cheerfully take the "educate folks at every opportunity in every venue" approach.

Re:SONY is a hydra

[Kanasta]

Hydra or not, when I choose never to buy a vaio again, it's because they don't work well with any other non-sony hardware products.
When I don't buy minidisc.net, it's because its all lies
When I don't buy sony digicams, it's because their MS/Pro/Super Pro have failed to work EVEN with their OWN hardware so many times due to design errors. (I count 3)

Re:SONY is a hydra

[sesshomaru]

Yes, but I hate them for their games division, or more specifically their American games division. You know, the one that forces every classic 2D games series into and inferior 3D version. People still talk about Symphony of the Night anyone talking about the 3D Castlevanias?

"To tell the truth, I don't think it's even that 2D is only possible on handhelds, but more that it's only possible on DS," said Igarashi-san. "Personally speaking, I'd jump at any chance to develop a 2D game for any console, or even the PSP, but those chances are getting fewer and fewer. I feel like the DS is the last fortress of 2D gaming. So if we can get a younger audience with this DS 2D game, and prove to them that 2D gaming is worthwhile and fun, maybe then we can increase the market for that type of game." -- 2D PSP Castlevania Dreams in Tatters

Anyone think that Metal Slug is going to be better in 3D? I don't know about Working Designs as a company, but I believe what they said about Sony:

"We just spent too much time fighting the good fight to even get it out," Ireland wrote of Growlanser, "and other games approved."

One such game the company apparently failed to get approved was the PlayStation 2 action adventure game Goemon.

"Though almost finished and substantially improved from the Japanese release, Goemon is dead for the US, and that was really the final straw," Ireland wrote. "If I can't guarantee that the games I personally choose for us to release in the US can actually get approved and come out, there's no business to be done." -- Working Designs closes up shop

Yes it is the Final devkit. AACS the holdup?

[guidryp]

Note that your list doesn't have the CELL final until April... This is late. Very late.
The question is do you seriously believe it is AACS holding up launch till November?

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/ps3/playstation-confe rence-news-roundup-160603.php
Here's their summary so far for anyone who wants to catch up:

PS3:
- GLOBAL RELEASE NOVEMBER 11th
- 60GB HDD 2.5" with pre-installed Linux OS will be included?
- Dev kit specs fix as of today
- Final PS3 development kits will be sent to developers in June
- 10.000.000 BD-ROMS manufacturing capability per month @ cost around same as 2-layer DVD
- Every PS3 game will be on a Blu Ray Disc, in an attempt to prevent piracy
- Price will not be less than 50.000YEN (~$425USD)
- PS3 will have HDMI support from launch
- Sony plans to produce 1 million PS3s a month; 6 million PS3s for FY2006 (by the end of March 07)
- Basic online service free, no details yet (could be XBLS for PS3)
- Full backwards compatibility, hi-res and texture filtering for all titles (akin to what the Xbox 360 does to Halo)
- The online service will be working off of GameSpy technology

Re:Yes it is the Final devkit. AACS the holdup?

[fondue]

'Final' as in 'production version'. It seems extremely unlikely that there would have been any significant changes to the Cell design for some months now.

I love how Kotaku's summary is lifted uncredited from MS PR-bot Major Nelson's blog. The involuntary straw-grasping ("could be XBLS for PS3" - translation: "I am unwilling to believe the unambiguous announcement that online play is not going to carry a subscription fee on PS3, thereby completely and utterly screwing Xbox Live") gives it away though.

Re:Yes it is the Final devkit. AACS the holdup?

[iapetus]

No, technically my list shows a final Cell in the April release of the loan devkits. I don't know what's in the current devkits, but that could conceivably be final as well.

Do I believe that it's the AACS issues holding up the launch in Japan until November? Not entirely, but I'm not going to assume there isn't any truth in it either. I'd be more tempted to suggest the launch timeframe is set by game software availability, network infrastructure and hardware costs rather than vague claims that Cell isn't ready yet.

Price will not be less than 50.000YEN (~$425USD)

This doesn't appear on any of the presentation material from Sony's meeting and according to people who were there, it wasn't said at all.

Full backwards compatibility, hi-res and texture filtering for all titles

Take 'all titles' with a pinch of salt - any titles that didn't follow certain guidelines to the letter may not work perfectly. It'll certainly be better than Xbox 360's backwards compatibility, but I wouldn't expect it to be as good as PS2's.

Thank you!

[Kittie Rose]

Exactly what I was saying in the other topic.

Re:Microsoft? Who knew!

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody ever explained to me why Microsoft would inherently give a damn about DRM. As far as I know, it's the content industry that says "chain up people's PCs or we won't release high defenition material at all".

Because DRM is not about music and video. DRM is all about applications... with DRM (and with Trusted Computing), you bind together data and applications. DRM allows you to specify which exact pieces of machine code can access a particular piece of data. Most people just think that means stopping the capture of music and video... but it means any digital data. You can bind data to Microsoft Word. You can bind emails to Outlook. Applications are data too... you can bind them to one machine, or one operating system. The machine code generated by a compiler from a Free software source code can be locked too... owned, if you like.

Gates let the cat out the bag when he said that Microsoft started on DRM with the idea of controlling music and video, but then realised it had much wider applications. Unfortunately, most geeks on slashdot are still stuck in the "music and video" trap... hence all bullshit when the GPL v3 talks about DRM. They assume that Stallman and the FSF are somehow in favour of piracy, when in fact, they know all too well that DRM means a totalitarian control over applications in a way that has never been done before... and it means forcing code to be approved by a controlling authority (that it matches their arbitrary rules) before it can run properly.

Re:The underlying problem is still piracy.

[bit01]

Nobody WANTS DRM.

Nonsense. The media companies love DRM because of the market control it gives them.

willingness of ordinary people to engage in acts of willful copyright infringement

Gosh, when the vast majority of people disagree with your view of the world then maybe it's your view which is at fault?

People have been sharing with friends and acquaintances since the dawn of time.

the underlying problem is still the willingness of ordinary people to engage in acts of willful copyright infringement simply on the basis of the belief that their chances of being caught are low.

No, the underlying problem is IP companies who feel they have a right to unlimited profits for the one piece of work at the expense of the general population. And due to broken IP law are currently getting away with it.

There is also a problem with lying astroturfers who fraudulently misrepresent company propaganda as a personal opinion and also repeatedly spam discussion groups with their propaganda but that's another story.

---

It's wrong that an intellectual property creator should not be rewarded for their work.
It's equally wrong that an IP creator should be rewarded too many times for the one piece of work, for exactly the same reasons.
Reform IP law and stop the M$/RIAA abuse.

Re:The underlying problem is still piracy.

[pla]

Hate to feed the trolls (and my most recent mod points just expired, damn!), but...


The fact of the matter is that, whatever pseudophilosophical bullshit exceptions people give here

You do realize that copyright itself counts as a "pseudophilosophical bullshit exception" to physical reality, right? You don't have a natural "right" to control copying and distribution of something just because you happened to put a particular combination of words/notes together, of which 99.99% of your "creation" already existed just under the surface of the culture that spawned you? You only have some protection because society as a whole values your work in entertaining us and, however little, for enriching our culture as a whole. Shift the balance just the teensiest bit, and the only justification of your copy-"right" vanishes like the fiction on which we've based it.


(such as the "wink wink" 'backing up my DVDs' nonsense of the submitter)

Some people will pirate movies. Some people really just want to back them up . Most of us fall somewhere between those two, wanting backups of our own movies, and not really caring if we have a few copied movies or CDs for which we don't own the original. Almost all of us prefer to reward the creator, however, thus the delicate balance we have between copy rights and fair-use rights. To repeat, don't mistake a copy-right as a natural right; it exists only at the whim of society as a whole.


It doesn't matter if you think 70 years is too long for copyright.

True, it doesn't - Nor does it matter if you think it too short, or just right. My previous point will hold whether you make copyright last forever, or for a week. Deal.


mindless overcommercialized shite and that somehow justifies your piracy.

Who needs justification? You seem to have missed the point. We. Don't. Care. "They" have failed to act in good faith in upholding their end of the social contract implicit in copyrights. "We" have started responding in kind. "They" will lose.


You are not engaging in meaningful rebellion against 'the corporate overlords' by engaging in software piracy. you are not gandhi.

"meaning" exists after-the-fact, and the victors get to define it. Ghandi promoted passive terrorism, tax evasion, and open sedition. But he won, so we think of him as some sort of frickin' saint.


You help no artist with your piracy, period.

Heard of Galactic Civilizations II? You might have, it made it to the Slashdot FP recently. Or LsL:LotLL? Or for a more blunt example, heard of Microsoft Windows, probably the single most pirated yet best-selling product line in the history of computers? Not that I really care, though - Just because you have that particular point wrong doesn't mean its truth has any influence on this topic.


It is not possible to successfully find some 'loophole' in the concept of fair use. There's simply no such thing because fair use by definition is a fungible thing

I would like to see your definition of "fungible". However, I will agree that you can't find loopholes in fair-use, because fair-use itself exists as nothing more than the holes in copyright law. But to repeat myself yet again, what you consider "fair" use really doesn't matter, because we define collectively which fictions we allow to remain codified as law, and individually which ones we adhere to.


Yes, companies occasionally trip over themselves and make mistakes while trying to protect their goods. but making that the central issue (as slashdot always does) as opposed to addressing the fundamental problem is just wrong.

I agree completely. The "fundamental problem" here involves the idea that we grant corporeal status and human rights to non-human groups assembled for the solue purpose of extracting profit from society. Yet the same penalties we can apply to humans cannot, in practice, apply to corporations. Thus we have a problem.

While not a native speaker...

[Lispy]

This sentence gave me headaches. I highly doubt it qualifies as proper english. :)

"With high definition writable media appearing already, will the price drop soon enough to help me overcome the real obstacle to backing up my exsisting commercial DVDs, cost of single media large enough to hold them that is playable in a player?"

Re:While not a native speaker...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a native speaker and it still doesn't make sense. There are a couple of other bad grammar things there too. Go go gadget editors...

Re:While not a native speaker...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think technically it's valid grammar, though it's certainly long and hard to parse. Some of the clauses are extraneous and can be dropped without changing the meaning, such as "with high definition writable media appearing already", "to backing up my existing commercial DVDs", "large enough to hold them" and "that is playable in a player". The reduced sentence then reads "Will the price drop soon enough to help me overcome the real obstacle, cost of single media?"

Re:While not a native speaker...

[Anonymous Coward]

This sentence gave me headaches. I highly doubt it qualifies as proper english. :)

"With high definition writable media appearing already, will the price drop soon enough to help me overcome the real obstacle to backing up my exsisting commercial DVDs, cost of single media large enough to hold them that is playable in a player?"

Note, i'm a native speaker who makes tons of errors... never the less I find this hard to read, though I can find one error.

?"cost of a single media"?
Media is the plural "medium", though in computers it's popular to describe floppy discs as media rather than a medium, where newspapers, tv, radio are media each use their own medium. A group of reporters are the media. An artist puts his ideas on media, but might prefer one medium such as paper. In any case, "cost of a single media" is akward to say the least (I need a single discs) as a single media would be a medium. "Cost per disc" would be best.

Re:While not a native speaker...

[k2r]

Well, it's complex enough to qualify as proper german, then :-)

At least, except from "single media" it makes perfect sense to me.

the real obstacle to backing up my exsisting commercial DVDs
[is the]
cost of single media
[a single media]
that is playable in a player
With high definition writable media appearing already, will the price drop soon enough to help me overcome [this obstacle]

I'd bet that there is a linguist way to mark up and straighten such senctences.

k2r

Looks normal to me for Cowboy "Real Editor" Neal

[EllynGeek]

At the best of times Cowboy Neal writes like a drunken monkey. You'd think that a person who is so proud of being a Real Editor would actually have some skills with the language.

Canadian RIAA says they were wrong re:file sharers

[nano_assembler]

Did you see an earlier story from yesterday evening, it is here and it is about how the Canadian RIAA has contradicted it's previous public statements?

Did you also see the article about how DRM costs 25% of a mobile systems battery power?

Here is an example of how the US government is investigating price fixing.

Do all the above examples validate piracy? No, I don't think so. Do they validate DRM? hell no! I will never buy media strangled with DRM. Ever.

My #1 Demand on Sony...

[BoRegardless]

Do NOT muck up my computer or slow it down in any way, OR... You won't get my software dollars, and then you likely will not get any more hardware sales either (like the $3k LCD projection TV I bought). There is more at stake than a damn gaming DRM here.

Re:My #1 Demand on Sony...

[cnerd2025]

If they installed shit on my computer without my knowledge or permission, I'd serve them a lawsuit. Buying a CD or DVD or anything else never comes with the mention of installing secret software.

Re:Devkits in June! Truth is Cell and tools are la

[Anonymous Coward]

You hit upon part of it: the network is the issue and it is part of the DRM.

Sony is going to require network authorization for each game everytime you want to play it. Each game disc will be serialized and married to the first console that plays it. This is the same way DBS access cards are married to the first receiver that they connect to.

When you put that game in your PS3, it's yours forever and it reports that status to Sony via the network.

Copied games -when someone manages to do that, as we know they will- will fail to authorize.

Taking your legal game to another PS3 will fail. Used games, traded games, factory bootlegs will fail because their serial number will not be in Sony's database.

What's taking Sony so long is trying to come up with ways to keep people from bypassing this auth process. To work, it HAS to be nearly foolproof and it really needs to apply not only to games but also to BD movies so the customers will be used to the idea that their player is always talking to the company.

That's the stick. Here's the carrot. Sony and the other publishers have the option to release games and movies with some or all of the DRM turned off -meaning sure, the FIRST set of movies will work over HDMI but don't you dare count on it staying that way for every release- and they can release quasi-crippled versions where the game will operate in demo mode or some such thing until you call up and pay for a license.

Example:

You go down to GameStop and buy a used copy of Mercenaries 2 for PS/3: $10

You play and decide the Iran levels fix some of the bugs from the first game, so you click the Sony store menu and buy a license: $40

Or perhaps you can rent a month license direct from Sony: $20

Compare to the current model where you pay $40 to Gamestop and Sony gets none of it. Yes, I know it's a lucasarts game. This is merely an example.

The used game market will be reinvented: instead of buying a physical used game that you own, you will buy a demo for a couple bucks and if you want to play it all, you call or click on Sony's online store and buy yourself a temporary or permanent license. Sony gets the revenue direct and shares none of it with the game stores. Oh the store gets some money from selling that used game but since it's basically a demo game or half a game and you still have to pay to play, they will not be able to command the sort of money they get now.

Trade-in games will be close to worthless anyway so once you buy a new game at retail or buy an auth license for a used game, there's going to be nobody ready to give you money for it, not even the pennies EB or Game Stop gives you now. If they sell it for $4.99, what are they going to give you? $2?

Sony's revenue models depend upon this revenue from licensing used games. That's what the delay is all about.

Re:Microsoft? Who knew!

[marcosdumay]

Thacherous computing plattaforms won't be able to run Linux. Or, at least won't be able to do that the way we do it now, that is easy to modify and improve.

Re:Microsoft? Who knew!

[soupdevil]

Well, you got some karma for it, but Microsoft is actually the author of one of the most successfuly DRM schemes. Apple's Fair Play has been cracked, but to my knowledge Microsoft's Janus scheme is still protecting music downloaded from sites like Napster and Rhapsody. The only way around it is the analog hole, which requires realtime playback and strips all metatags.

Re:Devkits in June! Truth is Cell and tools are la

[iapetus]

Sounds like half-assed paranoid speculation to me. Ridiculously vulnerable if anyone comes up with a way of faking authorisation (Whoops! We just broke our entire distribution network!) and incredibly unlikely to fly with the consumer (I lose all my games if my PS3 breaks down? Forget that...)

So, nice theory, but you might want to ditch that PS3 purchase fund and spend the money on tin foil for headgear instead.

Re:The underlying problem is still piracy.

[Lochin Rabbar]

It is not possible to successfully find some 'loophole' in the concept of fair use. There's simply no such thing because fair use by definition is a fungible thing that relies on reasonable human judgment to decide when too much is too much. Therefore, the very fact that you attempt to use some loophole pretty much in itself no longer makes your actions fair use.

What on earth do you think you are talking about. No one in their right mind would go looking for a loophole in a concept. The idea of a loophole is that a badly drafted law may allow for it to be interpreted in a way that it wasn't intended, thus allowing an action which would otherwise be prohibited. Surely you can tell the difference between the concept of fair use and a legal definition of fair use. To argue something is falls under the concept of fair use is not looking for a loophole it is just giving an example of an action which a person considers a definition of fair use should cover. To look for a loophole in a legal definition of fair use in order to cover an action that falls under the concept of fair use is a legitimate thing to do. It does not make that action non fair use, it merely extends the legal definition of fair use such that it falls more into line with how a reasonable person might define fair use.

Secondly, you use the word fungible but it does not mean what you think it means. Nothing in and of itself is fungible, you need at least two things for them to be fungible. These two things must be interchangeable in regard to a legal obligation. For example say I go into a store and ask for a copy of a particular CD, and the shop has three copies of that CD in stock. These three CD's are fungible because any one of the three will satisfy my order. Similarly I may pay by cash or credit card, these are fungibles because either is sufficient to satisfy my debt for the CD. What exactly are you saying fair use is fungible with, or were you just using a big word in order to sound impressive.

Howard Stringer

[garyrich]

You are right that Sony is like a Hydra, or a zaibatsu to be more precise. But they put a content side, IP protection gaijin in charge as CEO. He's from Sony Entertainment and before that CBS Television.

Putting him in charge was a solid kick to the nuts for all of Sony's hardware businesses. He doesn't control everything, but he functions as a tie breaker when the two sides disagree. And he is *always* going to come down on the side of more locked down content. I wouldn't be surprised if the decision to delay the PS3 until the copy protection could be made even more strict was his personal decision.

Maybe that what they wanted when they gave him the job. If so, it was stupid. I thought at the time that he was put in as a "chainsaw CEO" - someone that could do things (like fire lots of people) that a japanese CEO couldn't/wouldn't do. After he does all the demolition the board is *shocked* at the devastation, fires him with a golden handshake, and moves on with a leaner company. He hasn't done that. Now it seem more likely that they decided that for the 21st century "content is king" and didn't think it through to the damage it would cause the the company as a whole.

Re:Microsoft? Who knew!

[westlake]

Microsoft's position of DRM'd media content seems clear:

Mandatory managed copy.

You can save HD to back-up media or hard drive at full resolution. (Preserving closed captioning and multiple audio tracks?) You can distribute to home networks. You can painlessly downsample/download to portable devices and media.

That would meet 95% or more of anyone's "fair use" requirements.

Re:The underlying problem is still piracy.

[mumblestheclown]

I dont deny that SOME people have a legitimate reason to back things up. however, you'd bave to be either immensely naive or just willfully blind not to realize that most talk of 'back ups' in connection with DRM discussions is a "wink wink" term for outright piracy since the mechanisms are the same.

Though, I really love your touching heartfelt story of your daughter, her love for monsters inc, and her coiincidental love of touching the disks themselves. how convenient!

Re:The underlying problem is still piracy.

[mumblestheclown]

If "pirates dont care about quality", how come higher quality versions of pirated material frequently become available on P2P sits? how come pirate DVD places in china have the same movie in DVD5 an DVD9 at two different prices?

Get a clue.

FINAL devkits in June

[DeadScreenSky]

The grandparent was referring to the final devkits, which are probably going out in May/June. This was fairly widely reported in the gaming media. Here's just one example story.

I'm not sure how different the current devkits are from the final PS3 hardware, but it could potentially lead to some serious development work still to come. If nothing else the more elite devs will want to take at least a few months to get better performance/graphics out of their game using the presumably superior performance of the final kits. A good example of this is Rare's X360 launch title Kameo: Rare added self-shadowing to all of the characters within the last two months or so of development, and it really improved the (already beautiful) graphics.

Re:Fuck Sony

[StanVassilevTroll]

second, fuck me. please. fuck me in the ass. i am a dude who likes to take it in the ass. please fuck me. i am down on my knees like an underage chinese girl. begging you. except that i'm a boy. pease fuck my ass. pease. me love you long time. me love your long schlong long time. fuck my ass. Hi. I'm Stan. Email me.

Re:Microsoft? Who knew!

[Midnight Thunder]

Apple's Fair Play has been cracked, but to my knowledge Microsoft's Janus scheme is still protecting music downloaded from sites like Napster and Rhapsody.

Is this because more people want FairPlay cracked, or because the Janus scheme is that tough? Truth is, given a choice between Apple's DRM or Microsoft's I would choose Apple's simply because it is more relaxed. For myself, I would generally prefer to avoid WMA and WMV content to the best that I can, DRM or not.

Re:Microsoft? Who knew!

[Anonymous Coward]

only the analog hole eh? do your homework, it has to go to the sound drive first and if you catch it there and write it to mp3 or ogg you can get all the meta data too.

Re:Microsoft? Who knew!

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple's Fair Play has been cracked

Cracked, resealed, cracked, resealed. It is currently closed.

Re:The underlying problem is still piracy.

[Scooter's_dad]

You wrote:

The fact of the matter is that, whatever pseudophilosophical bullshit exceptions people give here (such as the "wink wink" 'backing up my DVDs' nonsense of the submitter), the underlying problem is still the willingness of ordinary people to engage in acts of willful copyright infringement simply on the basis of the belief that their chances of being caught are low.

1. Backing up our DVDs so my daughter doesn't destroy them is not a "pseudophilosophical bullshit exception;" it's a fact of life. I don't much care if other people want to make copies of DVDs to distribute illegally. That's not my concern, nor is it my problem.

2. The underlying problem is not my willingness to engage in an act of copyright infringement. It is instead the fact that I currently CANNOT make a fair use backup copy of my own DVDs without breaking the law (thank you, DMCA).

I considered defending myself against your implication that I'm lying about my daughter, but instead I'll just issue the age-old curse:

"Just wait until you have kids of your own!"

Re:The underlying problem is still piracy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you can propose an idea that will solve the industry problem that no one else has solved yet: Allow legitamate backups be made, while disabling piracy "backups".

Re:Microsoft? Who knew!

[soupdevil]

Janus is a better target, because of the subscription scheme -- you can download hundreds of thousands of files for a few bucks a month. Crack Fair Play, and you still have to spend 99 cents to download the file. But if you crack Janus, you can download a million files for ten bucks, and keep them after you cancel your subscription.

Re:Microsoft? Who knew!

[soupdevil]

If you care at all about sound quality, that's no good. You never ever want to convert from one compressed format to another. Janus will be cracked when you can strip the DRM from a WMA file without having to reconvert the audio.

Business Greed 101

[Midnight Thunder]

The lesson of Business Greed:

A person sells a product for $100 and finds that lots of people are buying it. The guy figures that he could notch up the price up a bit and increases it by $10. People still buy it, since they still feel that the product is worth the money being made. The guy is now making a good profit on top of what he was already making. He now figures that since people are happy with that price he could make even more money by notching up the price again, so the price is now $120. Suddenly he is starting to sell 1/10th the amount he was selling, all because the price suddenly became too much for most people.

The lesson here is that making some extra money is ok, but being greedy is not.

Re:The underlying problem is still piracy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Gosh, when the vast majority of people disagree with your view of the world then maybe it's your view which is at fault?

Yep. That's why we still think that the Earth is a flat disc carried by Atlas, and that Apollo drives his golden chariot during the day.

Or, maybe, it's possible for an amazing number of people to be flat-out wrong about things!

Copyright infringement is wrong, no matter how you try and dress it up.

Re:The underlying problem is still piracy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you can propose an idea that will solve the industry problem that no one else has solved yet: Allow legitamate backups be made, while disabling piracy "backups".

The law has already solved this problem: the first is allowed, and the second is not.

good for us

[sgt scrub]

It's good to see our government acknowledge the greater importance of corporate income over that of the fast advancement of technology. It will be a grave day when technology advances to the point were we can cure deseases. Things like prayer might be eliminated from society. Who knows. Maybe government would be eliminated too. Good job us!

Re:Microsoft? Who knew!

[DeadScreenSky]

Aren't the newer versions of FairPlay still unbroken? JHymn can only do iTunes 5.0 and below songs, for example.

Earlier versions of Microsoft DRM were cracked too.

There's already a solution...

[WiseWeasel]

There's already a solution to that provided by the law; it's called a civil suit. You find someone who's violating copyright by redistributing copyrighted content without a license, and sue them for lots of money. It happens all the time. Copyright violations are a civil matter between the violator and the copyright holder. You're not going to go out and dull every knife in the marketplace to prevent stabbings; same thing here, you're not going to lock out everyone from using the content they purchase just to prevent a bit of piracy. Part of living in a free society is that you have to give up total control, and use market forces such as pricing, availability, marketing and lawsuits to guide your business dealings. We have a word for total control, and it's called totalitarianism. Whether it's coming from a government or a corporation, people are perfectly justified in revolting against such behavior...

Re:Microsoft? Who knew!

[theCoder]

Nobody ever explained to me why Microsoft would inherently give a damn about DRM. As far as I know, it's the content industry that says "chain up people's PCs or we won't release high defenition material at all".

You're right, it doesn't make sense at first glance. One would think MS would want to make it easy for people to use digital media, not harder by corrupting it with digital restrictions. However, I think MS is trying to position itself as the de facto DRM provider. If all media sold online used MS DRM, then MS would probably get some percentage of that revenue. And MS loves getting money for doing no work (and who could blame them for that -- I like getting paid for doing no work, too :) Just think -- if you could get 10 cents (or whatever the fee would be) of every music track purchased in the world, wouldn't you try? MS is just capitalizing on the media industry's fears of piracy.

Further, MS does have some incentive in terms of preventing software piracy. Though MS does depend heavily on piracy to gain marketshare, once it has saturated the market, they will want to prevent piracy as much as possible. Such things as activation schemes are part of that. Once everyone has to use MS software (because everyone else does), MS doesn't care if using it is a PITA.

Re:Microsoft? Who knew!

[Firehed]

But unlike WMA's DRM, Apple's is actually in public use. More people want it cracked. Why did we start seeing security exploits in Firefox? It was gaining huge popularity, not because it was bulletproof. There are (relatively) so few people who are actually using a non-iTMS music store that all the cracking efforts are on FairPlay. And also note that the iTMSv6 fairplay hasn't been cracked yet. Honestly, life is in analog, so why don't they just give up already? Until we're actually converted into Matrix-bots, there's no way to fully close it.

Re:The underlying problem is still piracy.

[westlake]

People have been sharing with friends and acquaintances since the dawn of time.

the underlying problem is IP companies who feel they have a right to unlimited profits for the one piece of work at the expense of the general population

The Incredibles represents an investment of $90 million dollars and the labor of four hundred people.

It is not the general population that benefits from piracy.

It is the subset with a midline PC or better and a broadband connection.

It is the subset within that set which is too cheap to rent from Blockbuster and too impatient or too self-important to stand in line for a free loan from their public library.

"Living Large," from a Marxist point-of-view.

Protecting. Gotta love that choice of word.

[Anonymous Coward]

... still protecting music downloaded from sites like Napster and Rhapsody.

Protecting? Against what? Corrosive materials?

Economics applications

[Create an Account]

This is Slashdot.

Your logic and reason are not welcome here.

Digital Hole

[dbretton]

heh heh ... digital hole ...
hehehehehe

why compete directly?

[circusboy]

The video game market seems to roll in cycles, A large number of people are going to have a console for a year or so and then by the 'next big thing' why release a product just when everyone has bought a product that will last a year or so.

If I were them I would make the release perfect, set up a bunch of not-too-be-missed games and release when the gleam on the xbox has worn off. if you time it right, you could probably alternate with the other manufacturer, and both make out like bandi... good businessmen...

but hell, if I knew what I was talking about I'd be a wealthy businessman...

while we're on the subject...

[mabhatter654]

really, who's going to back up DVDs to Blue Ray? That's backing up a 15$ disc to a $30 writeable... Not much sense to me. That's what dual layer DVDs are for anyway.. but again, the cost per copy + time and hassle, just buy it used or on sale.

BOYCOTT SONY!

[Anonymous Coward]

The Sony/BMG Rootkit fiasco was borderline electronic warfare - since it disabled your CD drive, had it's own phone home features, and removing it could destroy windows.

The only true response for the Sony rootkit is:
Boycott Sony DVDs, Boycott Sony CDs, Boycott Sony PSPs and playstations, Boycott Sony electronics and Boycott Sony PCs & Notebooks.

Instead of wasting all their resources building a DRM nightmare, build products people want to buy - a good booklet and box, pictures and text to go along with CDs and DVDs.

DRM stuff consumes company resources with no real added value to the customer, so between two equal company product offerings, the product with no DRM but interesting boxes, booklets and other features (stickers, signed performer pictures, whatever) - that product will outsell an equal but less interesting product with annoying DRM features.

I still wonder if all government computers got the Sony rootkit removed, or if 'holes' still exist in our National Security - holes put their by Sony CDs?

Re:Microsoft? Who knew!

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what "thacherous" means, but it's worth pointing out here that PS3 is going to come with Linux installed, with the idea that it'll be a great platform for video editing and such.

Apparently not everyone at Sony has gone over to the dark side....

Re:Looks normal to me for Cowboy "Real Editor" Nea

[Anonymous Coward]

Next you will be saying:

You'd think that a company who is so proud of being a Software Provider would actually have some skills writing software.

C'mon, this is the real world sunshine :)

Re:The underlying problem is still piracy.

[Anonymous Coward]

where can I vote for you?

please tell me it's in central texas

Re:Devkits in June! Truth is Cell and tools are la

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony has already said the games will be married to one specific console.

If you want to take your games to a game party, you have to haul the games and your PS/3.

Of course, if you also want to use the PS/3 for DVR, then it needs to stay plugged in at your home. It's on the way toward being too damn big to haul around anyway.

The PS/3 is all about controlling how you use your own media, games, and TV. Sony is jealous of the freedom we viewers have enjoyed and they smell money from those third-parties who have been making big bucks off the used market.

Re:Microsoft? Who knew!

[OneSeventeen]

Microsoft has a very simple concept when it comes to DRM/Licensing fees, they just charge the customer!

Remember buying your XBox, then having to buy the extra $35 kit to make it read them properly? Microsoft didn't care about having it locked down properly when they sold it, they just sold the units, and sold a separate kit later that opened it up as a DVD player.

Really, the issue here is the fact that the blu-ray/hddvd people are lagging on finally deciding how to best screw over their customers and throw out Fair-Use rights (or at least reshape them).

The fact that the original XBox required me to pay an extra $35 for the right to play ORIGINAL DVDs I already OWN, and PURCHASED at FULL PRICE is ridiculous. They could have easily added the ability to play DVDs for free at no cost to them, except for the fact that the MPAA and other organizations love slapping CSS encryption on everything.

Sony is getting caught up in the same debate, but it looks like they are taking the time to find out how to make it comply with those standards while hopefully not costing the end user more money for expansion kits to enable something that should work by default.

IMO, libdvdcss it. Screw the DVD authoring morons who make it legally impossible for me to play DVDs I purchased on my linux laptop. We all know every media encryption methods that doesn't require an internet connection will be easily cracked within days or weeks of release (since they have to give you the key to unlock the DVD, even if it is initially embedded in hardware), so all they are doing is screwing the legal users out of even more rights.

My stance, I'm not buying any HDDVD/Blu-Ray devices, and that includes consoles. Personally, the PC has been able to display far beyond HDTV specs for years now, and my off-the-shelf laptop gives a better gaming experience than the X360, so why the sudden rush to replace PCs with smaller PCs, especially now that they are getting comperable in price?

My advice: buy the console you want because you like the games it offers, or stop complaining about console manufacturers being delayed due to DRM issues and start complaining about the DRM issues that trample your rights as a consumer.

Re:Microsoft? Who knew!

[marcosdumay]

So, Sony is going to take advantage of the DRM role on the GPL (so bad Linus don't like v3). As I said, that won't let people improve Linux, destroying its sucessfull strategy.

Re:Canadian RIAA says they were wrong re:file shar

[SeanHayward]

>Did you see an earlier story from yesterday evening, it is here and it is about how the Canadian RIAA has contradicted it's previous public statements?

I don't think I've ever sampled a DIVX rip of a movie, then went out and got it because the quality is better. You've watched it once, you are unlikely to watch it again. Movies are not music, the reports don't carry over.

>Did you also see the article about how DRM costs 25% of a mobile systems battery power?

I think most people came to the realization that the comparison was not exactly accurate given the differences in bitrates.

> Here is an example of how the US government is investigating price fixing.

It relates to DRM how? If anything the record companies are promoting their CDs over digital music with DRM.

Do all the above examples related to piracy? No, I don't think so. Do they validate DRM? If there was a connection to DRM... I will never buy into arguments not related to the topic at hand. Ever.

Re:The underlying problem is still piracy.

[Tweekster]

actually a MAJORITY of people inside the United States copy stuff. 50million copied on naster and that was years ago...it keeps going up

Re:Looks normal to me for Cowboy "Real Editor" Nea

[EllynGeek]

Of course, what was I thinking. :)

Re:Devkits in June! Truth is Cell and tools are la

[iapetus]

Strange how I can't find any reference to this elsewhere, except as a debunked rumour.

Launch Lineup Neither Sufficient Nor Necessary

[patio11]

Just like the PS2's strong launch lineup propelled it to victory last time around? Who could forget such classics as Orphen, Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round Two, X-Squad, and ESPN International Track and Field. (OK, I'm being a *little* unfair. But of the 29 launch games there are only about four to five that would rate a rental, and not a single killer app (at least to me). The game that sold a gazillion machines came, as I recall, over a year later: Final Fantasy VII. You can look at their lineup here: ESPN International Track and Field )

Re:Launch Lineup Neither Sufficient Nor Necessary

[patio11]

Typo: rate a rental -> rate more than a rental. I'm a Nintendo fanboy but not totally blind. :)

Re:Launch Lineup Neither Sufficient Nor Necessary

[sqlrob]

The PS2 was a hell of a lot more backwards compatible than the 360, and it played DVDs. In Japan it sold on it's strength as a cheap DVD player as well.

Sony's trying to get history to repeat itself with Blu-Ray and better(?) backwards compatibility.

Straw Man

[brunes69]

With high definition writable media appearing already, will the price drop soon enough to help me overcome the real obstacle to backing up my exsisting commercial DVDs, cost of single media large enough to hold them that is playable in a player?

Dual layer DVD-Rs have been around for years and can be bought for less then a buck each when you grab a good sale, which is way less than the cost of a commerical DVD (at least any DVD *worth* backing up, and not out of the Walmart 99 cent bin).

Besides, who the fudge backs up DVDs on optical media anymore? Get an Xbox for a hundred bux, a 300 GB HD for another hundred, install XBMC, and archive them to hard drive. You'll save a ton on medial in the long run, and it's much more convient.

Eheheheh

[nnn0]

:DDD

Re:Microsoft? Who knew!

[Anonymous Coward]

Janus has been cracked several times. Each time, Microsoft puts out a new variant on the code. The magic of Janus is that manufacturers have to allow the DRM to be updated automatically, which makes Janus a permanently moving target under a single brand name.

It's delivered as a "black box" to developers, the black box knows how to decrypt all previous (cracked) versions of the DRM as well as the one new version.

MS probably has a stack of ready-to-publish changed DRMs. Why take on the task of Sisyphus trying to exhaust that supply?

Economics of BR discs?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are right on with this. I too have been wondering about the economics of launching with this new media when the discs alone, as blanks, are supposed to cost $25-$30! That mean that they will have to sell all PS3 games for at least $65 I'd imagine, and still only be making like $35-$40 for the game itself, that's a thin margin to split between retailers and the developers. I'd say new games at $80 is a more likely figure.

On the other hand, let's look at Xbox360, it's discs only cost like $1 a piece. So, it's NEW games can be priced at $35-$40 and make the exact same profit for retailer/developer as on the PS3. Far more likely is launching new games at $50-$60 and now you're still charging less than PS3 and still making more.

Given these financial realities, developers are going to love selling games on the Xbox360 and the Revolution, because total profitability is a question of both how many games you can sell and how profitable you can be per game sold. If you're twice as profitable on the Xbox360 and Revolution games as on the PS3, then the PS3 will need to have twice the installed user base of either JUST TO BREAK EVEN. Well, I don't see that happening, not in the USA at least. Even in Japan I think Nintendo will do extremely well this round. On the other hand, Sony loves the idea of making its developers pay such high medium prices because a large part of that is going to go to the Sony producers of those disks. This is the same problem that got Nintendo in huge trouble in the N64 days, and those cartidges similarly cost $25-$30, though did suffer in terms of size problems comparatively. Size in this day and age is a moot factor of course. 9 gigs to 15 or 25 gigs is not as huge a difference as the 64 megabyte Nintendo carts were to the 700 megabyte CDs. But, I still loved not having loading times, lol.

God I just love it when companies I can't stand start to self-destruct! First I roiled at Sega, and they died. And now Sony is biting it big time. The hilarious kicker is that if the PS3 fails, all of Sony dies with it, at least in its present form. Without PS3 total market domination, Sony as a company is not profitable, and not viable. If the PS3 fails, they will lose making Blu-ray a standard, meaning that Sony will lose another huge revenue stream. Slowly, my plan is coming together!

Re:Microsoft? Who knew!

[EagleRidge]

This isn't the first time Microsoft has benefited from the copy protection mistakes of others. Back in the 80's when Lotus 123 ruled the spreadsheet market, it irritatingly required a Lotus disc in the floppy drive in order to start up. This was a particularly bad idea back then because floppies were prone to failure at unpredictable and inconvenient times. People quickly learned to use the utility CopyIIPC to make copies of their Lotus floppy to make sure they could access their data. When the Lotus clone-cum-enhancements Quatro Pro from Borland came out, complete with Lotus compatibility, a lower price, and no requirement for the floppy in the drive, many spreadsheet users switched over almost overnight. With Lotus's hold on the market broken, the way was left open for Excel to eventually dominate.

Re:The underlying problem is still piracy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Strawman. Faulty and unrelated premises. Invalidated conclusion. Try again?