Probably you missed the keyword, I probably should have emphasized it: Aren "Torx screws" an example? You cannot buy a screw driver for them here in any market.
HereI get torx screw drivers only specialized shops, or have to buy them from Amazon or other vendors in the USA!
I have one... for my old Mac SE, I needed it to mount an accelerator card, had to remove the main board for it. That torx screw driver costed me about $30... 1992.
Except Apple products that are sold here, I never saw a torx screw anywhere, we are metric:) we don't screw up with screws.
Where's "here", so I can show you just how wrong you are.
You know what? The battery DOESN'T need to be secured by screws. It could slide into place and be held there with the other components, or with some sort of retaining clip, or even a strip of double-sided tape to prevent it from sliding around inside the case. The whole point is: Don't permanently glue the fucker in there!
Now you're changing the criteria.
The EU specifically said SCREWED-IN. THEY set the ONLY "acceptable" assembly-method. It's not up to me or you to second-guess the all-knowing, all-beneficent politicians.
And as millions of cellphones, tablets and music-players with "glued-in" batteries can attest, there is NOTHING "permanent" about the adhesives used. A little annoying to deal with, and you might have to go spend $8.99 at Harbor Frieght to get yourself a heat-gun; but so far, I don't think iFixit has ever had to "give up" on a battery-removal. Same thing with the thousands of INDEPENDENT REPAIR SHOPS that replace "permanently glued-in" cellphone/tablet/music-player batteries every single day, all around the world (including the EU). In fact, when I went to the iFixit Site to check out the teardown of the iPhone 7, the site helpully informed me that there was a shop that could do iPhone 7 repairs in my area.
But be sure to check out the "teardown of the iPhone 7 in 90 seconds" video at the link below..
BTW, I didn't see ANY heat-guns, and in fact, I don't think the iPhone 7's battery is glued-down at all, using "Pull Tabs" which iFixit calls "Replacement-Friendly" (See Step 9 of their Teardown). So, it looks like Apple, at least, has found a way around great globs of glue. Let's everybody give them a hand!
And, so what about Samsung (while we're looking...). How does the Samsung S8 (theoretically a newer-generation than the iPhone 7) keep its battery in place? Well, according to iFixit, Samsung apparently hasn't gotten the memo that gluing batteries in place is so 2015s. According to Step 6 of this S8 Teardown, not only is it glued-down; but they say "firmly (and we mean firmly) adhered."... But despite that, they were still able to get the S8's battery out:
So, as you can literally plainly see, this is already a "problem" that has long-ago been solved. All you need is a little heat...And, if you have a current-generation Apple device, maybe not even that!
I was speaking of engineering complexity, not how big of a parts-pile you have on the workbench when you disassemble the device. And that exactly is your flaw in thinking:D
So, we should limit refrigerators to approximately 3 parts, so they are on-par with the complexity of cellphones?
Because honestly, NO hobbyist is going to be doing component-level repair on the logic board in a cellphone. No more than a homeowner can rebuild a refrigerator's compressor.
Aren "Torx screws" an example? You cannot buy a screw driver for them here in any market.
You're insane, or just ignorant.
Torx screws have been around since 1967. They are HARDLY proprietary.
ANY hardware/automotive/electronics-parts store (RIP, RadioShack!) has Torx drivers. They are also in nearly EVERY prepackaged screwdriver-bit set and tool-set made in the last 20 years.
Pentalobe drivers are admittedly a little harder to find; but there are several online retailiers, like Amazon, that have them. So do specialty "tech" sites like iFixit.
>> Torx screws have been in heavy use in the automotive industry since about 1980. They are HARDLY "special" at this point.
I don't have a problem with Torx screws. I don't have a problem with any screw I can buy drivers to fit. I have a serious problem when a manufacturer creates a proprietary screw, patents it, and won't sell or license the driver to anyone.
Considering that Sam Colt died a year and a half before Henry Ford was born, i think we can safely assume that Ford probably borrowed his idea from Colt.
But there are no conversion services to turn an iPod touch to a Classic. I'm well aware of how to switch to flash storage on a Classic. The newer hardware gained all the inefficiencies of a full OS.
Sorry, wrong. Machines placing screws is a long ago solved problem. The last funny screw that was in any way mechanically better was the torx. The funky pentalobe and anti-tamper torx, etc are just the manufacturer being an asshole.
Actually, Pentalobe screws are designed to be more "strip-resistant" (that is, they heads don't strip as easily) than Phillips when they get to the #00 and smaller size.
I have some hands-on experience here and can make a reasonable comparison.
In an Iphone 4, the last iPhone I disassembled, there were three circuit boards, a battery, the screen, case, back, camera, button, and a small pile of cables.
There are dramatically more parts than this in a LG front-loading washing machine. The control panel, case, front and side covers, feet, drum suspension, drum bearing, water inlet valves, motor, drain pump, vibration sensor, tubes and wiring, soap dispenser, door, door seal/spring, door latch, door safety switch, door lock solenoid, bellows seal, drum support bearing, etc.
I have less experience with refrigerators, but they are similar. My fridge has two doors and two exterior drawers, 6 seals, 4 door mounts, water valves for the icemaker and water dispenser, plumbing to connect those, a pair of electrical switches for these, a digital control panel, two different lights, a water filter and cover, a crap-ton of shelves/supports/drawers, a compressor, evaporator, condenser, and a couple of fans.
A refrigerator and washing machine have a higher number of field replaceable parts than a cellphone. By this measure they are more "complex" than a cellphone.
I was speaking of engineering complexity, not how big of a parts-pile you have on the workbench when you disassemble the device.
I don't think they meant that the battery should be designed like a light bulb, but rather that the battery should be secured in place using screws instead of glue.
Um, that's what I was talking about.
But the problem is, you can't "screw the battery down" from the INSIDE, because there isn't enough "meat" in the outer case of a cellphone to thread-into. Plus, you'd have the ends of screws sticking out of the body of the phone.
SO, the ONLY way to screw-down a cellphone battery is to do so from the OUTSIDE-IN. Hence the "o-rings" and stuff.
The study in question was in relation to major household waste management. 77% of respondents said they would "make an effort to get broken appliances repaired before buying new ones." {Emphasis Mine} It was a study about the home, food waste, plastic waste, and general appliances. I too would put every effort into getting a dishwasher repaired. I just drove my coffee machine to the other side of the city for that reason too.
However I couldn't give two shits about my smartphone, tablet, or any other device with glued in batteries, or batteries in general. Most of these status symbols will be replaced while in a perfectly working condition. I applaud the idea behind the repairability rules, but if you don't back it with the right study you will not find the support you need to tackle this issue, an issue which manufacturers will fight.
What I'd really like to do is trade in my iPod touch for an iPod Classic with flash storage. The touch OS got upgraded too many times and slowed down - the classic still runs lean and has a more efficient UI if the only reason you want to use it is for music.
There are conversion kits and services on eBay to convert iPod Classics to flash.
Yes, society will collapse, and people will be forced to stand in lines for 5 hours for mouldy bread. Also, for some reason, everything is grey and blurry. Oh woe is us.
Back to reality: what will happen is that manufacturers will take this as an opportunity to tack a 20% increase on prices for 2-3 years, and then prices will be forced down, naturally, by competitive pressure.
Not exactly the end of the world.
And now, consider this: car and appliance manufacturers manage to stock parts for their products for decades, and they have a vast, physical distribution and repair network. Your car and your refrigerator can last for well over a decade, most of which will be hassle (and thus) maintenance cost free. Heck, some of them can even be re-sold.
And finally, consider that some appliances that cost less than an iPhone are much more complex (more moving parts, etc), but are infinitely more repairable and last a bunch longer.
That said, if they can do it, why shouldn't other consumer electronics be held to the same standards of repairability and longevity?
If you think that a refrigerator is more "complex" than a cellphone, you're sadly mistaken.
Colt's great contribution was to the use of interchangeable parts. Knowing that some gun parts were made by machine, he envisioned that all the parts on every Colt gun to be interchangeable and made by machine, later to be assembled by hand. His goal was the assembly line. This is shown in an 1836 letter that Colt wrote to his father in which he said,
The first workman would receive two or three of the most important parts and would affix these and pass them on to the next who would add a part and pass the growing article on to another who would do the same, and so on until the complete arm is put together.
Usually those are Torx screws. I remember them being on hard disk drive enclosures. Had to buy a set in order to open a failed hard disk drive and use the "fridge freezer recovery method".
I'd like micro USB cables that don't seem to get loose and fail to connect after a few months.
I'd like my MSI laptop advertised as having an upgradeable GPU board to actually have a GPU board I can upgrade to.
Get over it.
Torx screws have been in heavy use in the automotive industry since about 1980. They are HARDLY "special" at this point.
I can't help you with microUSB, except to say, "That's why Apple designed the Lightning connector."
Except that most of the time manufacturers actually go out of their way to make products less repairable. They don't use weird screws because they're cheaper, but to fuck with costumers. If everybody was using the same set of standardized parts, that would simplify both design and manufacturing, while mass production of said parts would push their cost down. This is exactly a case where regulation can be useful for breaking the prisoner's dilemma scenario and helping everybody. PCs didn't become unaffordably expensive just because they are built out of interchangeable parts, quite the opposite.
Um, MOST of the time, those "weird screws" are there to facilitate automated manufacturing. Ya know, one of the things that makes things CHEAP to buy, so you can have nice things.
And in some things, like cellphones, "standardized parts" are simply NOT a "thing"; not because the manufacturers want to spend BILLIONS in developing custom SoCs; but because there simply aren't any "Standardized Parts" that do what CONSUMERS want to have in their phones.
As long as people are willing to pay 2-3x the current cost, they can have a TV with replaceable parts and the infrastructure required to support it. Of course, many people won't be able to buy these products, but boy howdy, if they do, it will really be great.
They will propose any stupid shit that comes into their head, if it sounds like it is pro-consumer/anti-corporate.
For example:
"Batteries must be SCREWED in"?!?
Screwed into WHAT?!?
So now, the battery has to have some sort of threaded-insert, decreasing space inside the battery for, uh, BATTERY, and making it so that nice IP67 rating is RIGHT OUT, because now we have to have a HOLE in the body for the screw to pass through?!?
And don't whine about o-rings or other nonsense. Those quickly lose their effectiveness, as the screw loosens under vibration and flexing of the outer shell.
Slashdot Mirror
Probably you missed the keyword, I probably should have emphasized it:
Aren "Torx screws" an example?
You cannot buy a screw driver for them here in any market.
HereI get torx screw drivers only specialized shops, or have to buy them from Amazon or other vendors in the USA!
I have one ... for my old Mac SE, I needed it to mount an accelerator card, had to remove the main board for it. ... 1992.
That torx screw driver costed me about $30
Except Apple products that are sold here, I never saw a torx screw anywhere, we are metric :) we don't screw up with screws.
Where's "here", so I can show you just how wrong you are.
You know what? The battery DOESN'T need to be secured by screws. It could slide into place and be held there with the other components, or with some sort of retaining clip, or even a strip of double-sided tape to prevent it from sliding around inside the case. The whole point is: Don't permanently glue the fucker in there!
Now you're changing the criteria.
The EU specifically said SCREWED-IN. THEY set the ONLY "acceptable" assembly-method. It's not up to me or you to second-guess the all-knowing, all-beneficent politicians.
And as millions of cellphones, tablets and music-players with "glued-in" batteries can attest, there is NOTHING "permanent" about the adhesives used. A little annoying to deal with, and you might have to go spend $8.99 at Harbor Frieght to get yourself a heat-gun; but so far, I don't think iFixit has ever had to "give up" on a battery-removal. Same thing with the thousands of INDEPENDENT REPAIR SHOPS that replace "permanently glued-in" cellphone/tablet/music-player batteries every single day, all around the world (including the EU). In fact, when I went to the iFixit Site to check out the teardown of the iPhone 7, the site helpully informed me that there was a shop that could do iPhone 7 repairs in my area.
But be sure to check out the "teardown of the iPhone 7 in 90 seconds" video at the link below..
BTW, I didn't see ANY heat-guns, and in fact, I don't think the iPhone 7's battery is glued-down at all, using "Pull Tabs" which iFixit calls "Replacement-Friendly" (See Step 9 of their Teardown). So, it looks like Apple, at least, has found a way around great globs of glue. Let's everybody give them a hand!
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardow...
And, so what about Samsung (while we're looking...). How does the Samsung S8 (theoretically a newer-generation than the iPhone 7) keep its battery in place? Well, according to iFixit, Samsung apparently hasn't gotten the memo that gluing batteries in place is so 2015s. According to Step 6 of this S8 Teardown, not only is it glued-down; but they say "firmly (and we mean firmly) adhered."... But despite that, they were still able to get the S8's battery out:
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardow...
So, as you can literally plainly see, this is already a "problem" that has long-ago been solved. All you need is a little heat...And, if you have a current-generation Apple device, maybe not even that!
As I said "Damn, the EU is Stupid".
I was speaking of engineering complexity, not how big of a parts-pile you have on the workbench when you disassemble the device. :D
And that exactly is your flaw in thinking
So, we should limit refrigerators to approximately 3 parts, so they are on-par with the complexity of cellphones?
Because honestly, NO hobbyist is going to be doing component-level repair on the logic board in a cellphone. No more than a homeowner can rebuild a refrigerator's compressor.
Aren "Torx screws" an example?
You cannot buy a screw driver for them here in any market.
You're insane, or just ignorant.
Torx screws have been around since 1967. They are HARDLY proprietary.
ANY hardware/automotive/electronics-parts store (RIP, RadioShack!) has Torx drivers. They are also in nearly EVERY prepackaged screwdriver-bit set and tool-set made in the last 20 years.
Pentalobe drivers are admittedly a little harder to find; but there are several online retailiers, like Amazon, that have them. So do specialty "tech" sites like iFixit.
If Apple isn't using weird screws why can't you buy the screwdriver at any tool store?
Answer is: Because they don't carry it; not because it is made of Unobtanium.
Try Amazon, Fry's, other "Tech" tool sites.
Pretty sure iFixit has it. I've got bits for all those weird apple devices.
iFixit DOES have it, too.
>> Torx screws have been in heavy use in the automotive industry since about 1980. They are HARDLY "special" at this point.
I don't have a problem with Torx screws. I don't have a problem with any screw I can buy drivers to fit. I have a serious problem when a manufacturer creates a proprietary screw, patents it, and won't sell or license the driver to anyone.
Care to give an example?
Considering that Sam Colt died a year and a half before Henry Ford was born, i think we can safely assume that Ford probably borrowed his idea from Colt.
Ok, ya got me there!
Actually they haven't. You just think they said something by simply making a purchase. Not the same as actually asking someone what they want. Moron.
They don't have to be ASKED. They Spake.
Moron.
But there are no conversion services to turn an iPod touch to a Classic. I'm well aware of how to switch to flash storage on a Classic. The newer hardware gained all the inefficiencies of a full OS.
Non-sequitur.
So, get the battery replaced and stop whining.
I tossed it into my junk box and got an iPhone 5C for $99, replacing the iPod Touch and my out-of-contract cellphone at the same time.
I just repurposed my iPhone 4s when I got my 6 Plus. Same thing.
If Apple isn't using weird screws why can't you buy the screwdriver at any tool store?
Answer is: Because they don't carry it; not because it is made of Unobtanium.
Try Amazon, Fry's, other "Tech" tool sites.
Sorry, wrong. Machines placing screws is a long ago solved problem. The last funny screw that was in any way mechanically better was the torx. The funky pentalobe and anti-tamper torx, etc are just the manufacturer being an asshole.
Actually, Pentalobe screws are designed to be more "strip-resistant" (that is, they heads don't strip as easily) than Phillips when they get to the #00 and smaller size.
I have some hands-on experience here and can make a reasonable comparison.
In an Iphone 4, the last iPhone I disassembled, there were three circuit boards, a battery, the screen, case, back, camera, button, and a small pile of cables.
There are dramatically more parts than this in a LG front-loading washing machine. The control panel, case, front and side covers, feet, drum suspension, drum bearing, water inlet valves, motor, drain pump, vibration sensor, tubes and wiring, soap dispenser, door, door seal/spring, door latch, door safety switch, door lock solenoid, bellows seal, drum support bearing, etc.
I have less experience with refrigerators, but they are similar. My fridge has two doors and two exterior drawers, 6 seals, 4 door mounts, water valves for the icemaker and water dispenser, plumbing to connect those, a pair of electrical switches for these, a digital control panel, two different lights, a water filter and cover, a crap-ton of shelves/supports/drawers, a compressor, evaporator, condenser, and a couple of fans.
A refrigerator and washing machine have a higher number of field replaceable parts than a cellphone. By this measure they are more "complex" than a cellphone.
I was speaking of engineering complexity, not how big of a parts-pile you have on the workbench when you disassemble the device.
I don't think they meant that the battery should be designed like a light bulb, but rather that the battery should be secured in place using screws instead of glue.
Um, that's what I was talking about.
But the problem is, you can't "screw the battery down" from the INSIDE, because there isn't enough "meat" in the outer case of a cellphone to thread-into. Plus, you'd have the ends of screws sticking out of the body of the phone.
SO, the ONLY way to screw-down a cellphone battery is to do so from the OUTSIDE-IN. Hence the "o-rings" and stuff.
The study in question was in relation to major household waste management. 77% of respondents said they would "make an effort to get broken appliances repaired before buying new ones." {Emphasis Mine} It was a study about the home, food waste, plastic waste, and general appliances. I too would put every effort into getting a dishwasher repaired. I just drove my coffee machine to the other side of the city for that reason too.
However I couldn't give two shits about my smartphone, tablet, or any other device with glued in batteries, or batteries in general. Most of these status symbols will be replaced while in a perfectly working condition. I applaud the idea behind the repairability rules, but if you don't back it with the right study you will not find the support you need to tackle this issue, an issue which manufacturers will fight.
Mod this Up!
77 per cent of EU consumers would rather repair their goods than buy new ones
And what percentage would be willing to pay significantly more for those repairable products than they are paying now for the non-repairable versions?
1/77%
The government needs to stay out of free market economics. Consumers have bleated incoherently
FTFY
Actually, the consumers have spoken loud and clear:
"We want cheap stuff with the most amount of features possible."
What I'd really like to do is trade in my iPod touch for an iPod Classic with flash storage. The touch OS got upgraded too many times and slowed down - the classic still runs lean and has a more efficient UI if the only reason you want to use it is for music.
There are conversion kits and services on eBay to convert iPod Classics to flash.
My first-gen iPod Touch should have lasted ten years before the battery died. It only lasted eight years.
So, get the battery replaced and stop whining.
Yes, society will collapse, and people will be forced to stand in lines for 5 hours for mouldy bread. Also, for some reason, everything is grey and blurry. Oh woe is us.
Back to reality: what will happen is that manufacturers will take this as an opportunity to tack a 20% increase on prices for 2-3 years, and then prices will be forced down, naturally, by competitive pressure.
Not exactly the end of the world.
And now, consider this: car and appliance manufacturers manage to stock parts for their products for decades, and they have a vast, physical distribution and repair network. Your car and your refrigerator can last for well over a decade, most of which will be hassle (and thus) maintenance cost free. Heck, some of them can even be re-sold.
And finally, consider that some appliances that cost less than an iPhone are much more complex (more moving parts, etc), but are infinitely more repairable and last a bunch longer.
That said, if they can do it, why shouldn't other consumer electronics be held to the same standards of repairability and longevity?
If you think that a refrigerator is more "complex" than a cellphone, you're sadly mistaken.
It was Samuel Colt
Colt's great contribution was to the use of interchangeable parts. Knowing that some gun parts were made by machine, he envisioned that all the parts on every Colt gun to be interchangeable and made by machine, later to be assembled by hand. His goal was the assembly line. This is shown in an 1836 letter that Colt wrote to his father in which he said,
The first workman would receive two or three of the most important parts and would affix these and pass them on to the next who would add a part and pass the growing article on to another who would do the same, and so on until the complete arm is put together.
Henry Ford had a similar idea...
Usually those are Torx screws. I remember them being on hard disk drive enclosures. Had to buy a set in order to open a failed hard disk drive and use the "fridge freezer recovery method".
I'd like micro USB cables that don't seem to get loose and fail to connect after a few months.
I'd like my MSI laptop advertised as having an upgradeable GPU board to actually have a GPU board I can upgrade to.
Get over it.
Torx screws have been in heavy use in the automotive industry since about 1980. They are HARDLY "special" at this point.
I can't help you with microUSB, except to say, "That's why Apple designed the Lightning connector."
Except that most of the time manufacturers actually go out of their way to make products less repairable. They don't use weird screws because they're cheaper, but to fuck with costumers. If everybody was using the same set of standardized parts, that would simplify both design and manufacturing, while mass production of said parts would push their cost down. This is exactly a case where regulation can be useful for breaking the prisoner's dilemma scenario and helping everybody. PCs didn't become unaffordably expensive just because they are built out of interchangeable parts, quite the opposite.
Um, MOST of the time, those "weird screws" are there to facilitate automated manufacturing. Ya know, one of the things that makes things CHEAP to buy, so you can have nice things.
And in some things, like cellphones, "standardized parts" are simply NOT a "thing"; not because the manufacturers want to spend BILLIONS in developing custom SoCs; but because there simply aren't any "Standardized Parts" that do what CONSUMERS want to have in their phones.
As long as people are willing to pay 2-3x the current cost, they can have a TV with replaceable parts and the infrastructure required to support it. Of course, many people won't be able to buy these products, but boy howdy, if they do, it will really be great.
Exactly!
They will propose any stupid shit that comes into their head, if it sounds like it is pro-consumer/anti-corporate.
For example:
"Batteries must be SCREWED in"?!?
Screwed into WHAT?!?
So now, the battery has to have some sort of threaded-insert, decreasing space inside the battery for, uh, BATTERY, and making it so that nice IP67 rating is RIGHT OUT, because now we have to have a HOLE in the body for the screw to pass through?!?
And don't whine about o-rings or other nonsense. Those quickly lose their effectiveness, as the screw loosens under vibration and flexing of the outer shell.