Hmmmm.... Last time I checked, Suse and Mandrake had more than 10 times the crap that comes with Windows. Suse and Mandrake are *selling* me an operating system. I really don't see your point. Or rather I should say that your point is very hypicritical. Why is it OK for these Minux distros to do this but not MS?
I think the issue is wether or not MS allows other software to be put in the default installation, which they don't. And the biggie being that you can remove it all. Actually that is an over statement. The only thing you CAN'T remove is IE, pretty much everything else is removeable.
Many people also do not realize that you can change the Shell of Windows if you do not like it. Nothing forces you to use "explorer.exe". Check out sites like:
I am not sure if you are aware of this but the Mono project plans on Implementing most if not all of the.NET Framework including the GUI Classes. THey will be using GTK+ under the covers for much of the windowing portiong.
Go to the Mono website to read the latest...
Cal
Re:here's the instructions how to do it
on
Hotmail Hacked
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
Ya know, it you could some how get that posted out somewhere that has greater volumes of general everyday traffic, maybe the rest of the public would start to get the hint at how bad MS is with security issues.
What would be really interesting is to show an example hacking the rest of the sites that use Passport type technology. This would definitely blow holes in MSs idea of being the "gatekeeper".
You definitely have that right. Linux is no harder to install than Windows per se. The drivers can be a pain if you have none standard hardware but that can also be that case in Windows. I do think that distros such as SuSE can be a bit overwhelming to the masses because of the large selection of software that can be installed alongside the OS installation.
You also hit the nail on the head about the OEMs taking a lot of the headache out of dealing with OS installation and therefore, the consumer has the opinion that Windows is easier because the "setup" part of Windows within an out-of-the box special (i.e. Dell, Gateway, IBM, etc.) is soooo simplistic. What they don't realize is that the OEMs spent quite a bit of time putting together driver packs for the specific hardware, software packages so that you can at least play with something once it is up and running and spent several weeks testing the installs so that they are as smooth as a babies butt. They also make sure that a full install of the installation files are put into the C:\Windows\Options\Cabs folder so that if you feel like remove or adding Windows specifc apps, it appears seamless. Something you would have to do on your own if you built a box from scratch.
A base Linux install is EXTREMELY easy. It's all the choices after that ("goodies" as I like to call them) that makes the user think that it is hard. What the user also doesn't see is that, for the most part, you can play with a good Linux distro for weeks and never have to install any new software because the package was pretty complete, again depending on your distro.
It would be nice to see more OEMs intstalling Linux in a similar manner to Windows. This would give much more faith to the masses that Linux is a usable product and not just a toy for geeks. I know it is all politics. Hell, what isn't politics in today's world. But I also know that OEMs could sell Linux equiped boxs for much less than they could a Win equiped box. And because the knowledge of the user base for Linux is so strong, I don't think the overall cost for support would be that bad.
Just my additional $0.02
Cal
--
/* Dammit Jim!!!! I'm a Doctor not a miracle worker! */
I have heard that Microsoft's original intentions were to only offer the liscensing scheme to the general business community in the initial Phase of the "Subscription" model.
Does anyone out there know if there original plans also including the public masses from the get go? Or was that something that was supposed to happen down the road.
FYI...
I worked on a project recently that was for Puerto Rico. MS had offered them an unlimited ala cart of OSes (NT server and Workstation in fact) as a donation. The project was for the National Police dept. Would be nice to see MS offering those kinds of deals to the masses. (That is if you like working with MS products.)
Cal
--
/* Dammit Jim!!!! I'm a Doctor not a miracle worker! */
So do you also call C++ a syntax of the same language? Especially since a lot of Linux gurus code directly in native C++. C++ is also supported by the CLR. In Managed and Unmanaged state. You can stil code directly using STL/ATL/WTL/MFC and native code or you can also have the CLR manage your code using garbage collection. Since Garbage collection is a technology that has been around for roughly 40 years and processing power and RAM in mass quantities is almost standard, I don't see too big of a performance issue with garbage collection as there once was.
VB.NET is still VB but with a lot of the useless, dead syntax removed. With the added benefit of pure OO added. Yes, my current job dictates that I use VB 6. I do this so that I can make MONEY. But it isn't my choice language and I don't even touch it at home.
I am not very happy about all of the changes to come with VB.NET nor in the syntax that is used to accomplish it but I am happy that a lot of the crap has been removed and a lot of good stuff added in.
I am not trying to be a proponent of.NET but if you are going to slam it, make sure you know what you are talking about first.
The slamming of.NET without an understanding of what it even is seems to be a reoccuring theme here.
Sun Tzu the author of "The Art of War" would be highly disappointed in everyones actions on this forum. "Know your enemy" and "Keep your friends close but keep your enemies closer". Most all of you seem to have forgotten those very usefull points.
Cal
--
/* Dammit Jim!!!! I'm a Doctor not a miracle worker! */
Took a lot of balls to say that here, but you know what, it is all true. You can't beat a company by doing exactly what you want them to do. Heck, I am not even sure if it is even worth competing with Microsoft on that level.
Linux needs to be refined for the masses before it can compete with Microsoft the way that most of you think it should.
If Linux is so much better than Windows then I would think that proving it should priority one!
Just more of my $0.02....
Cal
--
/* Dammit Jim!!!! I'm a Doctor not a miracle worker! */
This could be a long post but please bare with me here. Open to flames after this is all done and said though.
After having read through many of the comments, arguments and bickering over the topic of.NET, you are all starting to make me wonder what the hell I was thinking the day I went to my local CompUSA to get my feet wet in the Linux world.
Currently, by day, I am a Visual Basic 6 Senior Programmer. By night I am studying my butt off learning C++, Delphi/Kylix, and soon Python, so that I can make sure that if.NET bombs I have a path that is profitable and still fun. I was hoping that coming to the Linux world would help to do that. Reading through these posts, though, I get the feeling that you all appear to be VERY unorganized and are making me wonder if this is the correct place to be.
I don't mean that in a bad way but you have to keep in mind that there are a lot of MS developers like me out there that are a little more than worried about the coming of.NET. If the Linux community could find a way to take advantage of THAT instead of trying to find a way to remake.NET you would have it made. First get the deveopers, THEN the products will come. How do you think Microsoft got so powerful in the first place. MS enticed the programmers. Once you get them you don't need anything else! The rest falls into place. You can't get the developers though, if they all think you do nothing but bitch!
Look, they way I see it is, until the bandwidth of a LAN can be achieved on the net, the true backbone of.NET will be hard to achieve. The whole idea of.NET isn't necessarily using Passport, SharePoint, HailStorm or even WinXP for that matter...
.NET is the forcing of a distributed networking environment down a developers throat.
I haven't worked with Linux much and am just learning but several of the C++ guys I work with have quite a bit of knowledge in the *nix world and have persuaded me to look into it further. I already see things that I like in Linux and that I wish MS provided BUT I can also say that there are things about Microsoft products that I really like to.
The Linux world needs to figure out how to group together to provide some of these "things" that Microsoft does really well and then do them better and present them better (i.e. slicker GUI). The rest of the worlds normal everyday Joes don't even know what.NET is but I will guarantee they know what Windows is.
The Linux world needs to concentrate on gaining more ground as a friendly, usable everyday OS. How do you do that you may ask? With cool, locally run end user applications. How do you get those you may ask? By nabbing all of the scared shitless MS developers out there and making them Linux converts!!!!!!!!
All I truelly want is to code and be happy doing it!!! Being happy is only attained if I can also enjoy working with others on a cool project. Cool projects don't involve bickering about how to "beat Microsoft to the punch" but in "How in the hell do we make this the best product we can make it?"
Rambled on long enough. Sorry for taking up the bandwidth!:)
Cal
--
/* Dammit Jim!!!! I'm a Doctor not a miracle worker! */
Slashdot Mirror
The whole fiasco sounds like a PostMerger Damage Control.
AOL sucking the life out of Time Warner = Charge those RoadRunner Suckers MORE $$$.
@HOME is just as screwed.
Again, it's the consumer that cleans up after the dumbass Corp CEO's and their stinking brainless ideas.
Not sure what pipe you have been smoking but...
BR>
LiteStep
Cal
Hmmmm.... Last time I checked, Suse and Mandrake had more than 10 times the crap that comes with Windows. Suse and Mandrake are *selling* me an operating system. I really don't see your point. Or rather I should say that your point is very hypicritical. Why is it OK for these Minux distros to do this but not MS?
I think the issue is wether or not MS allows other software to be put in the default installation, which they don't. And the biggie being that you can remove it all. Actually that is an over statement. The only thing you CAN'T remove is IE, pretty much everything else is removeable.
Many people also do not realize that you can change the Shell of Windows if you do not like it. Nothing forces you to use "explorer.exe". Check out sites like:
1. DarkStep Site
2. LiteStep
3. Windows Shell Replacements
You see, you do NOT have to use the stuff that MS ships, you can easily replace it if you so choose, just like a Suse or Mandrake distro.
Cal
I am not sure if you are aware of this but the Mono project plans on Implementing most if not all of the .NET Framework including the GUI Classes. THey will be using GTK+ under the covers for much of the windowing portiong.
Go to the Mono website to read the latest...
Cal
Ya know, it you could some how get that posted out somewhere that has greater volumes of general everyday traffic, maybe the rest of the public would start to get the hint at how bad MS is with security issues.
:)
What would be really interesting is to show an example hacking the rest of the sites that use Passport type technology. This would definitely blow holes in MSs idea of being the "gatekeeper".
Our better yet, it might just close the gate!!
Cal
You definitely have that right. Linux is no harder to install than Windows per se. The drivers can be a pain if you have none standard hardware but that can also be that case in Windows. I do think that distros such as SuSE can be a bit overwhelming to the masses because of the large selection of software that can be installed alongside the OS installation.
/* Dammit Jim!!!! I'm a Doctor not a miracle worker! */
You also hit the nail on the head about the OEMs taking a lot of the headache out of dealing with OS installation and therefore, the consumer has the opinion that Windows is easier because the "setup" part of Windows within an out-of-the box special (i.e. Dell, Gateway, IBM, etc.) is soooo simplistic. What they don't realize is that the OEMs spent quite a bit of time putting together driver packs for the specific hardware, software packages so that you can at least play with something once it is up and running and spent several weeks testing the installs so that they are as smooth as a babies butt. They also make sure that a full install of the installation files are put into the C:\Windows\Options\Cabs folder so that if you feel like remove or adding Windows specifc apps, it appears seamless. Something you would have to do on your own if you built a box from scratch.
A base Linux install is EXTREMELY easy. It's all the choices after that ("goodies" as I like to call them) that makes the user think that it is hard. What the user also doesn't see is that, for the most part, you can play with a good Linux distro for weeks and never have to install any new software because the package was pretty complete, again depending on your distro.
It would be nice to see more OEMs intstalling Linux in a similar manner to Windows. This would give much more faith to the masses that Linux is a usable product and not just a toy for geeks. I know it is all politics. Hell, what isn't politics in today's world. But I also know that OEMs could sell Linux equiped boxs for much less than they could a Win equiped box. And because the knowledge of the user base for Linux is so strong, I don't think the overall cost for support would be that bad.
Just my additional $0.02
Cal
--
I have heard that Microsoft's original intentions were to only offer the liscensing scheme to the general business community in the initial Phase of the "Subscription" model.
/* Dammit Jim!!!! I'm a Doctor not a miracle worker! */
Does anyone out there know if there original plans also including the public masses from the get go? Or was that something that was supposed to happen down the road.
FYI...
I worked on a project recently that was for Puerto Rico. MS had offered them an unlimited ala cart of OSes (NT server and Workstation in fact) as a donation. The project was for the National Police dept. Would be nice to see MS offering those kinds of deals to the masses. (That is if you like working with MS products.)
Cal
--
So do you also call C++ a syntax of the same language? Especially since a lot of Linux gurus code directly in native C++. C++ is also supported by the CLR. In Managed and Unmanaged state. You can stil code directly using STL/ATL/WTL/MFC and native code or you can also have the CLR manage your code using garbage collection. Since Garbage collection is a technology that has been around for roughly 40 years and processing power and RAM in mass quantities is almost standard, I don't see too big of a performance issue with garbage collection as there once was.
.NET but if you are going to slam it, make sure you know what you are talking about first.
.NET without an understanding of what it even is seems to be a reoccuring theme here.
/* Dammit Jim!!!! I'm a Doctor not a miracle worker! */
VB.NET is still VB but with a lot of the useless, dead syntax removed. With the added benefit of pure OO added. Yes, my current job dictates that I use VB 6. I do this so that I can make MONEY. But it isn't my choice language and I don't even touch it at home.
I am not very happy about all of the changes to come with VB.NET nor in the syntax that is used to accomplish it but I am happy that a lot of the crap has been removed and a lot of good stuff added in.
I am not trying to be a proponent of
The slamming of
Sun Tzu the author of "The Art of War" would be highly disappointed in everyones actions on this forum. "Know your enemy" and "Keep your friends close but keep your enemies closer". Most all of you seem to have forgotten those very usefull points.
Cal
--
One word!!!
/* Dammit Jim!!!! I'm a Doctor not a miracle worker! */
Bravo!
Took a lot of balls to say that here, but you know what, it is all true. You can't beat a company by doing exactly what you want them to do. Heck, I am not even sure if it is even worth competing with Microsoft on that level.
Linux needs to be refined for the masses before it can compete with Microsoft the way that most of you think it should.
If Linux is so much better than Windows then I would think that proving it should priority one!
Just more of my $0.02....
Cal
--
Thanks for the reply. I am glad to hear that there is someone out there with a level head!
/* Dammit Jim!!!! I'm a Doctor not a miracle worker! */
Cal
--
This could be a long post but please bare with me here. Open to flames after this is all done and said though.
.NET, you are all starting to make me wonder what the hell I was thinking the day I went to my local CompUSA to get my feet wet in the Linux world.
.NET bombs I have a path that is profitable and still fun. I was hoping that coming to the Linux world would help to do that. Reading through these posts, though, I get the feeling that you all appear to be VERY unorganized and are making me wonder if this is the correct place to be.
.NET. If the Linux community could find a way to take advantage of THAT instead of trying to find a way to remake .NET you would have it made. First get the deveopers, THEN the products will come. How do you think Microsoft got so powerful in the first place. MS enticed the programmers. Once you get them you don't need anything else! The rest falls into place. You can't get the developers though, if they all think you do nothing but bitch!
.NET will be hard to achieve. The whole idea of .NET isn't necessarily using Passport, SharePoint, HailStorm or even WinXP for that matter...
.NET is the forcing of a distributed networking environment down a developers throat.
.NET is but I will guarantee they know what Windows is.
:)
/* Dammit Jim!!!! I'm a Doctor not a miracle worker! */
After having read through many of the comments, arguments and bickering over the topic of
Currently, by day, I am a Visual Basic 6 Senior Programmer. By night I am studying my butt off learning C++, Delphi/Kylix, and soon Python, so that I can make sure that if
I don't mean that in a bad way but you have to keep in mind that there are a lot of MS developers like me out there that are a little more than worried about the coming of
Look, they way I see it is, until the bandwidth of a LAN can be achieved on the net, the true backbone of
I haven't worked with Linux much and am just learning but several of the C++ guys I work with have quite a bit of knowledge in the *nix world and have persuaded me to look into it further. I already see things that I like in Linux and that I wish MS provided BUT I can also say that there are things about Microsoft products that I really like to.
The Linux world needs to figure out how to group together to provide some of these "things" that Microsoft does really well and then do them better and present them better (i.e. slicker GUI). The rest of the worlds normal everyday Joes don't even know what
The Linux world needs to concentrate on gaining more ground as a friendly, usable everyday OS. How do you do that you may ask? With cool, locally run end user applications. How do you get those you may ask? By nabbing all of the scared shitless MS developers out there and making them Linux converts!!!!!!!!
All I truelly want is to code and be happy doing it!!! Being happy is only attained if I can also enjoy working with others on a cool project. Cool projects don't involve bickering about how to "beat Microsoft to the punch" but in "How in the hell do we make this the best product we can make it?"
Rambled on long enough. Sorry for taking up the bandwidth!
Cal
--