If you are taking a course on calculators, then you should be able to use one in that class. Other than that 1 case, to use one in an advanced math class kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it?
I'd always hoped that DigiDesign would bring thier killer music tools to Linux, but I never hear hide nor hair of anything except the big NT push they are doing. This explains the whole thing...
The few bugs (some severe) that I've run into with linux drivers tend to lead to one result: that piece of hardware does not work as it should. Not to say there wouldn't be kernel panics and other major failures, it's just that I've not seen them. I even have a couple old SCSI drives that are really flakey, and tend to restart themselves from time to time. The only one that's a problem is my swap partition, or a drive I'm currently reading from/writing to. The OS just doesn't respond until the drive has returned to a sane state, then it carries on as if nothing happened. OTOH, Win (NT and 95) vomits instantly if ANY drive becomes unavailable for even a few seconds while using Explorer. Sometimes this means a reinstall (damn the registry and it's wonders.)
IMHO that speaks alot about the core design of the kernels/OS.
But, as you said, if we were to see more closed source drivers we probably would tend to see more problems. There is a very good solution to that, however. Don't buy hardware from manufacturers that do not provide or at least support Free drivers for thier hardware. The users have more control with Linux. Use this (marginal?) power wisely. They do listen sometimes, and will have to more and more if trends continue. On this point, I feel it is very important that linux newbies (including large corporations) are educated as to why source DOES matter to them, even if they are not programmers.
I'm in a hurry, so I haven't read all the comments... feel free to moderate down if it's redundant.
Now, these have got to be the most clueless survey results I've ever seen! From the looks of the answers, at least 75% of the responding persons had no idea what they were talking about.
Let's take a look at the "developer" you would get by combining the highest scores: "What I want is to write Free Software, but I don't think it's important for people to be able to tweak my code. It will, however, most definately be GPL'd. Now, I only use KDE, and have never heard of GTK+, but that's the library I want to develop with. For KDE. Not that I know what GTK+ is. I will be writing these Free, binary only, GTK+ based, KDE apps (definately GUI) as server tools, for a server running Oracle. But I want no profit from the customers I have (that are demanding my stuff runs on linux) even though they can afford Oracle."
All I want to know is, what kind of glue do you have to sniff to get there?
Nowhere did I mention the word "creation." Like I DID say, it goes both (and many) ways: all sides of this debate (there are more than two... did you even READ my post?) have agendas. Including your view (which may be my view... I never said different.)
Now, with THAT aside, there seems to be enough holes in every theory that I've heard proposed, that this definately requires more study. And for scientists to study requires all plausible theories to be exhaustively researched. Which logically brings us to the conclusion that more that one theory should be presented to young, growing minds, so more collection and examination of evidence takes place. Teaching more than one theory was my only point.
Burying your head in the sand because you can't/don't want to comprehend someone elses ideas is no answer.
I've often felt that the current systems needs an overhaul. Teaching one theory, while blatantly ignoring any others, is just wrong! Think you don't agree? Need proof? Look at how so many people here are reacting just at the thought that what they hold to be true may not be the theory that is taught as fact. Don't you think that might go both (or many other) ways? There are other views than yours and mine, and if they have any valid basis, those views are just as valuable in a classroom than the ones that fit into any groups personal findings/truths. Ya can't just have it the way YOU want it.
I was actually lucky enough to have one teacher that was more than willing to debate such things in class. In fact, it was the teacher that brought it up. Anatomy/physiology, in case anyone is curious. I very much appreciated the open, honest approach to the subject of theoretical biological history, and if such things become standard in Kansas, it can only be good. If for no other reason, such an approach DEMANDS the student think for themselves. We can ALL agree that is good, I think.
I talked my boss into letting us take on 1 or 2 small sites that were hosted free on Linuxbox. We are a startup hosting service, so right now we can't take more than 2, but I really wanted to help out in any way possible (to give back to the community that has given so much.)
Email me at extremeforce@pcisys.net if your site just lost free hosting on linuxbox. (This is my personal email. We are not pcisys.net)
I'll bet it has something to do with the tons of accounts created within the last couple months. They've probably been around long enough to get moderator privs. And after all, all you have to do to make your post seem important is:
a) Get a buddy (co-worker) who has moderator rights to bump it up, or
b) post as AC, then log back in and bump yourself up.
I ignore the points. I turn everything to -1:)
Besides, the only part that did sound like a troll was the part you pointed out. The rest seemed like someone just stating an opinion (one I don't agree with, but that's not the point...)
I've been using linux of many variants for quite some time (4 years, not an old timer, but no newbie either.)
Some things to understand about linux/Free Software development:
1) As the poster above pointed out, all happens in FULL view, which means that any serious flaw can be pointed at, and hoisted by the marketing dept of [insert company name here as proof fo "how bad linux is." Personally, I prefer seeing it all out in the open. I learn something, and get to watch as the problem is tackled (more learning, which is a personal hot-spot for me.:)
2)Linux develops based on needs and flaws found during use. I.E.: "I'm using linux for A, and found that when I do B, things go real bad. Can I/we implement C?"
Now, I'd wager not to many people are serving a single static web page off 4 ethernet cards to a LAN. Why would you? If you need to serve THAT much content (or lack of content, if you will:) what you are serving is probably mission critical. And that means multiple machines in case one goes down.
Yes, what Mincraft pointed at IS a problem, but it's currently a NON-ISSUE in most (all?) installations. It's like worrying about whether or not you can drive your car underwater (at least, for the time being.) Which is why it was never addressed before. But since there is an efficiency gain to be made by improving the kernel's network threading, and it's been pointed out that that IS the problem, it's being worked on. Which means the non-issue will be fixed, because fixing it will only be an improvement, and a technically correct one at that. That's one BIG advantage to Free Software... technically correct ALWAYS wins.
So just because linux currently has a problem with 4 NICs at unrealistic high loads doesn't mean it's worse at working with one (or 2, as needed by firewalls, routers, etc..) and it doesn't mean it won't fit your needs better. It may NOT fit your needs better, but only YOU can evaluate that. Not some benchmark. The same is just as true for the benchmarks that show linux is faster (which actually seem to be the majority, if you insist on worrying about them.) No benchmark will fit what you are doing, unless you set up a real-world benchmark for yourself (which I invite you to do... the results I've gotten have turned up much useful info, and helped me tune both linux and NT in the LAN I take care of. I'll leave the results to your imagination;)
And remember, if you do decide to give linux a run, you CAN improve it. If you do not know how, you can SUGGEST improvements, or pay for someone to put them in. That's the WHOLE POINT. I really do believe that linux will do 90% of what people need to do at any given time, and do it well. It's a function of the licensing, and the culture.
If you do NOT give linux a run, all I ask is you do the favor of not being a troll here or anywhere else (about ANY topic, linux or not.) It does no good, and is quite rude. Imagine going INTO the MS building, finding an engineering meeting, and bursting in every 2 seconds with "You suck, MS sucks." That's what's been going on alot lately and it's getting quite tiresome. Yes, the internet IS the meeting room, for all to see (not implying Slashdot is the place linux developers discuss issues, but alot of linux/freeBSD/etc. users do.) Do, however, feel invited to come and share your well stated opinions/questions, no matter WHAT you use (such as the question you asked here.)
Oops. Better restate that before I get flamed... what I meant to say was that abuse of a monopoly is illegal. Having a monopoly is not. The abuse of a monopoly is the more profitable business model.
That's what I get for posting right after I wake up...:)
That sounded much better coming from your mouth... er... fingers, than ZDNet. Basically, put a few more freezes in, with the goal of getting a smaller set of big things working. Better and sooner.
The way ZDNet put it, it started to sound like a commercial development. Which would suck (and be very unlike Linus and the whole kernel crew!)
I greatly respect Linus' ability to manage these things. I'd fold in 10 minutes:)
This is great. Although I bought a Voodoo3, I'm still cheering NVidia and Matrox on. Kudos!
Hopefully, with all this new 3D hardware support, things like Blender will start exploiting that hardware, instead of just games. Don't get me wrong, 'cause I'm loving Q3, too:)
Very true. The person is not the company and the company is not the person. I wish more people would realize this.
Of course, this means that MS employees could have the best of intentions, and the software STILL comes out that bad. Which is still nothing against you. Let's just say I'm glad I'm not where you are, even though I'm probably not doing half as well financially.
One thing that really made a difference for me was switching samba (ver 1.9.18 on Caldera) to user level security (at least I think that's what made the diff.=)
Tranfer speeds of 1 MB/sec (100Mb NIC, all IDE since it used to be my desktop system,) compared to our NT server (100Mb NIC, all SCSI on a $25K dual CPU Compaq server) doing about 500K. My boss (a big NT fan) hates when I point this out. Hehe.
Performance does suck when backed up to another NT server, though. Only 500K/sec. I have a feeling this would inprove if we'd map the share instead of using the UNC. Anyone have exp w/this?
I'm not going into your bad experience(s) with linux, or your opinions on other OSs. I just want to make one point, lest anybody out there reading this believe misinformation:
Just checking your email requires all regular users to have a root account or at least privledges (typos corrected)
That is entirely, 100% false. I check my email several times a day, and with my standard account (which I use for everything except installing software, or configuring global settings, just like NT.)
Like I said, I will not degenerate into a "my OS is better than your OS," I just don't want misinformation floating around.
This struck me as really funny. Compare the part about "5 windowing systems" with this. (Warning: it's a link to a pdf file. Not big, but if you don't have a viewer...)
Oh, protect me from myself, Billy. Please?!?! Hehe.
Me "It's a bug in Word, here's a workaround." User X "Well, can't you just reprogram it?" Me "[mumbled comment about Bill Gates] It's a bug in Word, here's a workaround."
Then, of course, is the occasional user that actually helps, and understands my duties. The one who knows I came in on a Sat to install a new switch or network printer, and takes the time to thank me for it. Those (very few) users are worth their weight in gold, if only because they make me feel appreciated.
Unfortunately, the only part that usually gets back to my boss is the mumbled comment about BG. Sigh.
I really like the idea of being able to turn down ones own post, though. What if, by turning down your own posts, you still lose alignment, but only half or even a quarter of what you would lose if a moderator downgraded the post? That would cause people to really think about the content before hitting submit. I'd be much more inclined to bring my own post down, than have a moderator do it (if I had positive alignment,) but I'd still be knocked down somewhat. It would reduce abuse, yes?
People who do this couldn't use it to keep alignment, only for self-moderation (down.) As they lose status, they should quickly be moderated back up if other posts by them are of the same quality that got the higher alignment in the first place (in theory, anyway:) Sure would make you work to keep alignment.
from my POV. He's getting flamed left and right for grammar and some factual errors, but still a good read.
To some of you that may be lucky anough to have the status to choose your job, you definately have a different perspective than some of us "youngsters." Where I work, it's all about who can pull what strings, and who has what certs. It's very painful and frustrating to know that no matter how good an idea you have is, you might as well toss it into the shitter before you speak it. Actually telling someone just damages your credibility.
This is the future I see... quicky solutions running on bad software running on cheap hardware. There are some of us that actually have to cope with the shit put in place. And work a few weekends to do it.
Some of us still love the machine more than the money. But in the place I work, that's treated as a Bad Thing. Are mainframes/UNIX still the norm in the rest of the world? How would I know... here, if it can't be done on NT, they wonder why you'd want or need to do it.
Hopefully, there's a much bigger world out there than I've seen, because what I've seen bothers me.
Slashdot Mirror
If you are taking a course on calculators, then you should be able to use one in that class. Other than that 1 case, to use one in an advanced math class kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it?
I'd always hoped that DigiDesign would bring thier killer music tools to Linux, but I never hear hide nor hair of anything except the big NT push they are doing. This explains the whole thing...
if ((DigiDesign == Avid)&&(Avid == Microsoft))
{
$linuxProTools = FALSE;
$corruptedMusicData = TRUE;
}
That sucks. But thanks for the info.
The few bugs (some severe) that I've run into with linux drivers tend to lead to one result: that piece of hardware does not work as it should. Not to say there wouldn't be kernel panics and other major failures, it's just that I've not seen them. I even have a couple old SCSI drives that are really flakey, and tend to restart themselves from time to time. The only one that's a problem is my swap partition, or a drive I'm currently reading from/writing to. The OS just doesn't respond until the drive has returned to a sane state, then it carries on as if nothing happened. OTOH, Win (NT and 95) vomits instantly if ANY drive becomes unavailable for even a few seconds while using Explorer. Sometimes this means a reinstall (damn the registry and it's wonders.)
IMHO that speaks alot about the core design of the kernels/OS.
But, as you said, if we were to see more closed source drivers we probably would tend to see more problems. There is a very good solution to that, however. Don't buy hardware from manufacturers that do not provide or at least support Free drivers for thier hardware. The users have more control with Linux. Use this (marginal?) power wisely. They do listen sometimes, and will have to more and more if trends continue. On this point, I feel it is very important that linux newbies (including large corporations) are educated as to why source DOES matter to them, even if they are not programmers.
"Portability, reliability, extensibility, compatability, performance."
Well, three out of... wait... no, no, no, two out of, no, wait...... Argh! Nevermind. :)
Ahem. Sorry:
"Not mostly server side desktop tools, rather mostly desktop apps. That use Oracle."
Hehe. Not much better ;)
I'm in a hurry, so I haven't read all the comments... feel free to moderate down if it's redundant.
Now, these have got to be the most clueless survey results I've ever seen! From the looks of the answers, at least 75% of the responding persons had no idea what they were talking about.
Let's take a look at the "developer" you would get by combining the highest scores:
"What I want is to write Free Software, but I don't think it's important for people to be able to tweak my code. It will, however, most definately be GPL'd. Now, I only use KDE, and have never heard of GTK+, but that's the library I want to develop with. For KDE. Not that I know what GTK+ is. I will be writing these Free, binary only, GTK+ based, KDE apps (definately GUI) as server tools, for a server running Oracle. But I want no profit from the customers I have (that are demanding my stuff runs on linux) even though they can afford Oracle."
All I want to know is, what kind of glue do you have to sniff to get there?
Nowhere did I mention the word "creation." Like I DID say, it goes both (and many) ways: all sides of this debate (there are more than two... did you even READ my post?) have agendas. Including your view (which may be my view... I never said different.)
Now, with THAT aside, there seems to be enough holes in every theory that I've heard proposed, that this definately requires more study. And for scientists to study requires all plausible theories to be exhaustively researched. Which logically brings us to the conclusion that more that one theory should be presented to young, growing minds, so more collection and examination of evidence takes place. Teaching more than one theory was my only point.
Burying your head in the sand because you can't/don't want to comprehend someone elses ideas is no answer.
I've often felt that the current systems needs an overhaul. Teaching one theory, while blatantly ignoring any others, is just wrong! Think you don't agree? Need proof? Look at how so many people here are reacting just at the thought that what they hold to be true may not be the theory that is taught as fact. Don't you think that might go both (or many other) ways? There are other views than yours and mine, and if they have any valid basis, those views are just as valuable in a classroom than the ones that fit into any groups personal findings/truths. Ya can't just have it the way YOU want it.
I was actually lucky enough to have one teacher that was more than willing to debate such things in class. In fact, it was the teacher that brought it up. Anatomy/physiology, in case anyone is curious. I very much appreciated the open, honest approach to the subject of theoretical biological history, and if such things become standard in Kansas, it can only be good. If for no other reason, such an approach DEMANDS the student think for themselves. We can ALL agree that is good, I think.
I talked my boss into letting us take on 1 or 2 small sites that were hosted free on Linuxbox. We are a startup hosting service, so right now we can't take more than 2, but I really wanted to help out in any way possible (to give back to the community that has given so much.)
Email me at extremeforce@pcisys.net if your site just lost free hosting on linuxbox. (This is my personal email. We are not pcisys.net)
Yup. I tested it on /. not 10 minutes ago and caught that. VERY funny. :) And to think I was so down on Jar-Jar.
I'll bet it has something to do with the tons of accounts created within the last couple months. They've probably been around long enough to get moderator privs. And after all, all you have to do to make your post seem important is:
:)
a) Get a buddy (co-worker) who has moderator rights to bump it up, or
b) post as AC, then log back in and bump yourself up.
I ignore the points. I turn everything to -1
Besides, the only part that did sound like a troll was the part you pointed out. The rest seemed like someone just stating an opinion (one I don't agree with, but that's not the point...)
I've been using linux of many variants for quite some time (4 years, not an old timer, but no newbie either.)
Some things to understand about linux/Free Software development:
1) As the poster above pointed out, all happens in FULL view, which means that any serious flaw can be pointed at, and hoisted by the marketing dept of [insert company name here as proof fo "how bad linux is." Personally, I prefer seeing it all out in the open. I learn something, and get to watch as the problem is tackled (more learning, which is a personal hot-spot for me. :)
2)Linux develops based on needs and flaws found during use. I.E.: "I'm using linux for A, and found that when I do B, things go real bad. Can I/we implement C?"
Now, I'd wager not to many people are serving a single static web page off 4 ethernet cards to a LAN. Why would you? If you need to serve THAT much content (or lack of content, if you will :) what you are serving is probably mission critical. And that means multiple machines in case one goes down.
Yes, what Mincraft pointed at IS a problem, but it's currently a NON-ISSUE in most (all?) installations. It's like worrying about whether or not you can drive your car underwater (at least, for the time being.) Which is why it was never addressed before. But since there is an efficiency gain to be made by improving the kernel's network threading, and it's been pointed out that that IS the problem, it's being worked on. Which means the non-issue will be fixed, because fixing it will only be an improvement, and a technically correct one at that. That's one BIG advantage to Free Software... technically correct ALWAYS wins.
So just because linux currently has a problem with 4 NICs at unrealistic high loads doesn't mean it's worse at working with one (or 2, as needed by firewalls, routers, etc..) and it doesn't mean it won't fit your needs better. It may NOT fit your needs better, but only YOU can evaluate that. Not some benchmark. The same is just as true for the benchmarks that show linux is faster (which actually seem to be the majority, if you insist on worrying about them.) No benchmark will fit what you are doing, unless you set up a real-world benchmark for yourself (which I invite you to do... the results I've gotten have turned up much useful info, and helped me tune both linux and NT in the LAN I take care of. I'll leave the results to your imagination ;)
And remember, if you do decide to give linux a run, you CAN improve it. If you do not know how, you can SUGGEST improvements, or pay for someone to put them in. That's the WHOLE POINT. I really do believe that linux will do 90% of what people need to do at any given time, and do it well. It's a function of the licensing, and the culture.
If you do NOT give linux a run, all I ask is you do the favor of not being a troll here or anywhere else (about ANY topic, linux or not.) It does no good, and is quite rude. Imagine going INTO the MS building, finding an engineering meeting, and bursting in every 2 seconds with "You suck, MS sucks." That's what's been going on alot lately and it's getting quite tiresome. Yes, the internet IS the meeting room, for all to see (not implying Slashdot is the place linux developers discuss issues, but alot of linux/freeBSD/etc. users do.) Do, however, feel invited to come and share your well stated opinions/questions, no matter WHAT you use (such as the question you asked here.)
Thanks for listening :)
Oops. Better restate that before I get flamed... what I meant to say was that abuse of a monopoly is illegal. Having a monopoly is not. The abuse of a monopoly is the more profitable business model.
That's what I get for posting right after I wake up... :)
The point must be conceded. The best business model from a profit standpoint is definately a monopoly. But that is illegal, and with good reason.
That sounded much better coming from your mouth... er... fingers, than ZDNet. Basically, put a few more freezes in, with the goal of getting a smaller set of big things working. Better and sooner.
The way ZDNet put it, it started to sound like a commercial development. Which would suck (and be very unlike Linus and the whole kernel crew!)
I greatly respect Linus' ability to manage these things. I'd fold in 10 minutes :)
This is great. Although I bought a Voodoo3, I'm still cheering NVidia and Matrox on. Kudos!
Hopefully, with all this new 3D hardware support, things like Blender will start exploiting that hardware, instead of just games. Don't get me wrong, 'cause I'm loving Q3, too :)
Very true. The person is not the company and the company is not the person. I wish more people would realize this.
Of course, this means that MS employees could have the best of intentions, and the software STILL comes out that bad. Which is still nothing against you. Let's just say I'm glad I'm not where you are, even though I'm probably not doing half as well financially.
One thing that really made a difference for me was switching samba (ver 1.9.18 on Caldera) to user level security (at least I think that's what made the diff.=)
Tranfer speeds of 1 MB/sec (100Mb NIC, all IDE since it used to be my desktop system,) compared to our NT server (100Mb NIC, all SCSI on a $25K dual CPU Compaq server) doing about 500K. My boss (a big NT fan) hates when I point this out. Hehe.
Performance does suck when backed up to another NT server, though. Only 500K/sec. I have a feeling this would inprove if we'd map the share instead of using the UNC. Anyone have exp w/this?
I'm not going into your bad experience(s) with linux, or your opinions on other OSs. I just want to make one point, lest anybody out there reading this believe misinformation:
Just checking your email requires all regular users to have a root account or at least privledges (typos corrected)
That is entirely, 100% false. I check my email several times a day, and with my standard account (which I use for everything except installing software, or configuring global settings, just like NT.)
Like I said, I will not degenerate into a "my OS is better than your OS," I just don't want misinformation floating around.
A power failure, to ruin the uptime ;)
This struck me as really funny. Compare the part about "5 windowing systems" with this. (Warning: it's a link to a pdf file. Not big, but if you don't have a viewer...)
Oh, protect me from myself, Billy. Please?!?! Hehe.
...especially the really irritating ones:
Me "It's a bug in Word, here's a workaround."
User X "Well, can't you just reprogram it?"
Me "[mumbled comment about Bill Gates] It's a bug in Word, here's a workaround."
Then, of course, is the occasional user that actually helps, and understands my duties. The one who knows I came in on a Sat to install a new switch or network printer, and takes the time to thank me for it. Those (very few) users are worth their weight in gold, if only because they make me feel appreciated.
Unfortunately, the only part that usually gets back to my boss is the mumbled comment about BG. Sigh.
Very good point. Hmmm.
I really like the idea of being able to turn down ones own post, though. What if, by turning down your own posts, you still lose alignment, but only half or even a quarter of what you would lose if a moderator downgraded the post? That would cause people to really think about the content before hitting submit. I'd be much more inclined to bring my own post down, than have a moderator do it (if I had positive alignment,) but I'd still be knocked down somewhat. It would reduce abuse, yes?
People who do this couldn't use it to keep alignment, only for self-moderation (down.) As they lose status, they should quickly be moderated back up if other posts by them are of the same quality that got the higher alignment in the first place (in theory, anyway :) Sure would make you work to keep alignment.
My wife and I were discussing this very thing not an hour ago :)
from my POV. He's getting flamed left and right for grammar and some factual errors, but still a good read.
To some of you that may be lucky anough to have the status to choose your job, you definately have a different perspective than some of us "youngsters." Where I work, it's all about who can pull what strings, and who has what certs. It's very painful and frustrating to know that no matter how good an idea you have is, you might as well toss it into the shitter before you speak it. Actually telling someone just damages your credibility.
This is the future I see... quicky solutions running on bad software running on cheap hardware. There are some of us that actually have to cope with the shit put in place. And work a few weekends to do it.
Some of us still love the machine more than the money. But in the place I work, that's treated as a Bad Thing. Are mainframes/UNIX still the norm in the rest of the world? How would I know... here, if it can't be done on NT, they wonder why you'd want or need to do it.
Hopefully, there's a much bigger world out there than I've seen, because what I've seen bothers me.