Internet Explorer doesn't display Office formats by default and never has.
I said "type of" not "literally the same". IE wasn't even around when Microsoft was building its Office monopoly.
There is no standlone other-to-Office translator and there never has been.
So? Personally I think it would be a good thing to be able to translate directories full of MS Office documents into OpenDocument format.
And Microsoft initially had strong support for just about all of the competing formats so that people had upgrade options.
One way. You could import a lot of formats into MS Office, but not export them. And it's been like that for a long time.
Actually Microsoft's tatics were a lot worse - they not only had one way translation, but also made it deliberately very difficult for anyone other than Microsoft to read their formats properly.
desperately uninformed
Well, I've been using computers full time since the mid-70's, and I actually worked for WordPerfect for a while.
I am going to criticise you for being desperately literal.
People share documents in editable form so that changes can be made by all participants. There is no other reason for a standard.
I assume by this you mean MS Office is the standard... What I'm talking about is changing people's attitudes so that OpenDocument is the standard.
Yes, wiki's are nice. Wouldn't it be great if you could edit your wiki in OpenDocument format in OpenOffice, and you could view it Firefox? Wouldn't that be wonderful?
"Sorry, Firefox is not in our default installation and I'm not authorized to install software (and IT will not support it)."
Well, of course in that kind of situation then the only thing to do is to send them a Word document, (or better - a PDF).
But it misses my point, it's about mindshare and attitude - we need to get to a point where people and companies will start to feel embarrassed that they can't read OpenDocument formats.
Dropping MS Office support would be the kiss of death to OpenOffice.
I strongly disagree. I think MS Office support is the kiss of death for OpenOffice, mainly because it encourages the continued use of MS formats and makes OpenOffice appear to be an (inferior) subtitute for MS Office.
Having people open an MS Word document in OpenOffice and then saving it again in Word format is just crazy, and yet this is what OpenOffice (inadvertantly) encourages people to do. Some issues
Firstly, it puts an increadable burden on the OpenOffice developers, any idea of how much of the bloat in OpenOffice is due to MS Office compatibility? It also distracts them from what should be their main aim - to make OpenOffice great.
Secondly, it doesn't work well enough, and it just isn't good enough for office use. It causes all sorts of little, annoying problems. Without MS Office compatibility, OpenOffice could be so much better.
Thirdly, we should be encouraging people to use only OpenDocument format - we should treat MS Office as a legacy and inferior format.
I promise you the average user does not want to go through a convoluted process to edit their existing docs, they just want to hit Open...
I don't think it would be a convoluted process to drag a doc onto an icon to convert it, or for an admin to batch convert directories of files and then send a report to the owners. Besides which, the conversion has to be done at some point, either you do it at the begining of the process, or at the end - the current version of OpenOffice asks "Are you sure you want to save in Office format" when you go to save, every time.
Keep in mind one of the ways MS Word overtook WordPerfect was by supporting the opening of WordPerfect files
Yes, one way. You couldn't save them. Also, I expect Microsoft had a considerably easier time supporting WordPerfect files because they weren't deliberately obfuscated.
I'm not saying don't support MS Office files, quite the opposite, I'm saying make it as easy as possible for people to convert all of their files to OpenDocument format, be they MS Word, WordPerfect or whatever, but encourage them to treat them as legacy documents, and not to treat OpenOffice as a poor version of MS Office.
OSS fans are always bitching about Microsoft, but they don't seem to have a good strategy for competing them. Microsoft did a lot of fairly simple but very strategic things to get their dominance, OSS developers need to do the same. Here are my ideas for increasing the use of open formats:
1) Make Firefox display OpenDocument formats by default. I know that everyone complains about keeping bloat down, but if the OpenDocument format is going to get widespread use them people are going to have to be able to read it. Besides which, Firefox must already have 95% of the code required to do this.
2) Make a standalone MS Office to OpenDocument translator from the OpenOffice code. I want a tool so that I can drag a Word Document onto an icon on my desktop and it automatically translates it to OpenDocument format. And it should be able to do batch converting too, and to output a log of what it's done and any problems.
3) Take out the MS Office compatibility from OpenOffice. Concentrate on making OpenOffice a great tool for creating OpenDocument format files.
I think many people approach this the wrong way, they say things like - "OpenOffice must be able to write MS Office files so that I can send them to people that only have MS Office." However, what we really should be aiming for is to get in a position so that anyone can happily say "Please send us the document in OpenOffice format" and so that if someone says "Can you send it in Word" you can say "Download Firefox - it reads all OpenOffice files."
People are going to criticise this as unrealistic, but these are exactly the type of strategies that Microsoft used to get their desktop dominance.
Today ICANN announced that they would create a ".arab" top level domain name, to reassure the world that they were not overly influenced by the US government. "We think a.arab domain name would allow arabs to more easily identify arab focused web sites, and demonstrates that at ICANN we don't just focus on the US, but also we try to accomodate less significant countries, like Europe, Canada and Arab places like Iraq." The spokesman added "I'm sure it will also help the fight against terrorism".
I've used Macromedia products since their early days. They used to be cool - a big focus on the developer and keeping everything open. They don't feel so cool these days, they just seem to want to squeeze as much money out of me as possible, and I've started to resent it.
For instance, making a "professional" version of the Flash tool - I'm sure pretty much everyone who buys Flash is a professional, the "professional" version is just an excuse to charge extra for things that should be in the main product.
And they are trying to push developers in the direction they want them to go, rather than providing what developers want. For instance, they have a heavy focus now on using Flash for on-line forms and applications, but when was the last time you actually used a Flash application online? And yet many developers use PHP and are now interested in Ruby and AJAX but Macromedia have very poor support for those technologies.
I would like to think something positive will come out of this merger, but I'm afraid the new Adobe will just use their new powers to try to force developers in the direction they want them to go and find new ways to squeeze more money out of them.
Why did they choose eight 'bits' for their quantum 'byte'? For historical reasons, or is there a logical reason to choose eight? Why not seven, or 42?
I'm not being entirely frivolous - I understand quantum computing is radically different from today's architectures and so don't understand why they are choosing a byte size based on what seems to me to be historical factors.
People will still buy thier product, people accept that it sucks.
This is something that winds me up terribly about Microsoft, or rather, the people who use Microsoft software. For example, a friend has had absolutely terrible problems with his Windows XP laptop, tearing his hair out stuff with viruses and worms and other issues. He was going to buy a laptop for his wife and asked me for my advice. I said, buy an Apple laptop and you won't have all these problems. So what did he get? Another windows machine. Why? WHY??? Because everyone uses Windows, and he was afraid of something different. And this isn't the only example.
I got my old mum and dad a Mac Mini - they love it, and their friends coo over the slide show software and ask me how to buy one. I explain it's an Apple computer, it's cheap and compatible and will have all the software they need already installed. Then I find out later they've brought a Windows machine, because their son uses one and they were afraid that if they got an Apple they wouldn't be able to email him.
Microsoft survives because of the fear most people have of something different. Drives me nuts. My only recompense is saying to these people "You asked my advice and I said buy a Mac then you wouldn't have these issues. So sorry I can't help you. " when they phone me to solve their stupid problems...
That's right. We shouldn't trust scientists and engineers to be fiscally responsible, that's the job of government administrators. They always do the right thing, and when did you last hear of someone in government giving out jobs to "their favorite people"? Never happens.
Remember kids, evil terrorists are everywhere. They're watching you now. They want you dead, because they are jealous of your American freedoms. If you're not afraid, you should be.
Remember, President Bush has been chosen by God to protect you. True Americans don't doubt their President, as that doubt would give strength to the terrorists hidden amongst us. All hail President Bush!
$4.5 billion? That's far too expensive. I mean, we could keep our troups in Iraq for almost another month for that kind of money! What are they thinking, wasting it on a stupid big telescope.
Let this be a lesson to the openOffice people. Many people, including myself, have said time and again that openOffice should not be copying Microsoft Office, but instead try to be original and just be a great office suite. By copying MS Office, you are just letting Microsoft define the rules of the game, and you'll always be playing catch-up.
Now office 12 is out, and they've completely redesigned the interface. openOffice have three options:
1) Keep their current interface, and risk looking very outdated in a few years. 2) Put masses of effort and wasted time into copying the new interface, and let MS keep defining the rules of the game. 3) Start to be original and concentrate on making a great and original product.
All the above applies to file formats as well. So much of the effort but into being compatible with MS's horrible formats could have been better spent elsewhere.
Firefox did not become a great browser by copying IE, it did so by being a well designed product and adding original, easy-to-use features.
I have read here that Google is paying a dollar for everyone you can get to switch from IE to Firefox. Is this true? Any Slashdotters acually made any money from this?
I'll be interested to see what Microsoft is going to do in Vista to try to spoil things for Firefox. My guess is even further integration of IE into Windows, and lots of stuff that doesn't even feel like you're using IE will actually be through their browser. Also, they're going to try to get more lock-in on the corporate intranet rather than the public web.
Apple says they'll deliver something by a particular date, and instead deliver it six months earlier. That's very cool. Microsoft should learn from them and stop promising and then failing to deliver products on time.
Re:Everything bad for you is good for you again
on
Drink Decaf and Die
·
· Score: 1
I don't hate the French. It was a joke.
Personally I think Bush should say to Chirac "I'm sorry about the Iraq thing, you were right, it wasn't a very good idea" - but of course that will never happen.
I read a newspaper article the other day decrying MacDonalds again - criticising their fruit salads. The article (in the UK Guardian as I remember) said that MacDonalds fruit salads had been bathed in artificial chemicals, and how dare MacDonalds feed such dangerous stuff to our children etc. etc. Reading futher into the article, the chemicals in question were citric acid and ascorbic acid (vitamin C).
Everything bad for you is good for you again
on
Drink Decaf and Die
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
Things that have recently been found to have positive health properties: beer, chocolate, coffee. In moderation of course.
Personally I follow a very simple rule - eat and drink everything, just don't eat or drink too much of any one thing.
There was an interesting study recently - the French (yes, we hate them, yawn) apparently eat lots of stuff that is supposed to be bad for you, and yet remain healthy and slim. How do they do it? Basically, eat in moderation and don't snack between meals.
Well, I think it all looks pretty boring - just new versions of old games with prettier graphics. It's not the massive leap in performance I was hoping for.
I'm waiting for the PS3 to come out, then I'll decide.
What other nation of the world could guarantee the free speech implicit to the internet, as sites like slashdot are testament to?
Do you really believe that in the rest of the world sites like Slashdot couldn't exist because of free speech laws? If so then you've got a really disorted view of the world.
The level of "free speech" in the rest of the first world is similar to the USA. There are various things you could post to Slashdot that would almost certainly get you a visit from the Secret Services.
Slashdot Mirror
Internet Explorer doesn't display Office formats by default and never has.
I said "type of" not "literally the same". IE wasn't even around when Microsoft was building its Office monopoly.
There is no standlone other-to-Office translator and there never has been.
So? Personally I think it would be a good thing to be able to translate directories full of MS Office documents into OpenDocument format.
And Microsoft initially had strong support for just about all of the competing formats so that people had upgrade options.
One way. You could import a lot of formats into MS Office, but not export them. And it's been like that for a long time.
Actually Microsoft's tatics were a lot worse - they not only had one way translation, but also made it deliberately very difficult for anyone other than Microsoft to read their formats properly.
desperately uninformed
Well, I've been using computers full time since the mid-70's, and I actually worked for WordPerfect for a while.
I am going to criticise you for being desperately literal.
People share documents in editable form so that changes can be made by all participants. There is no other reason for a standard.
I assume by this you mean MS Office is the standard... What I'm talking about is changing people's attitudes so that OpenDocument is the standard.
Yes, wiki's are nice. Wouldn't it be great if you could edit your wiki in OpenDocument format in OpenOffice, and you could view it Firefox? Wouldn't that be wonderful?
"Sorry, Firefox is not in our default installation and I'm not authorized to install software (and IT will not support it)."
Well, of course in that kind of situation then the only thing to do is to send them a Word document, (or better - a PDF).
But it misses my point, it's about mindshare and attitude - we need to get to a point where people and companies will start to feel embarrassed that they can't read OpenDocument formats.
Dropping MS Office support would be the kiss of death to OpenOffice.
I strongly disagree. I think MS Office support is the kiss of death for OpenOffice, mainly because it encourages the continued use of MS formats and makes OpenOffice appear to be an (inferior) subtitute for MS Office.
Having people open an MS Word document in OpenOffice and then saving it again in Word format is just crazy, and yet this is what OpenOffice (inadvertantly) encourages people to do. Some issues
Firstly, it puts an increadable burden on the OpenOffice developers, any idea of how much of the bloat in OpenOffice is due to MS Office compatibility? It also distracts them from what should be their main aim - to make OpenOffice great.
Secondly, it doesn't work well enough, and it just isn't good enough for office use. It causes all sorts of little, annoying problems. Without MS Office compatibility, OpenOffice could be so much better.
Thirdly, we should be encouraging people to use only OpenDocument format - we should treat MS Office as a legacy and inferior format.
I promise you the average user does not want to go through a convoluted process to edit their existing docs, they just want to hit Open...
I don't think it would be a convoluted process to drag a doc onto an icon to convert it, or for an admin to batch convert directories of files and then send a report to the owners. Besides which, the conversion has to be done at some point, either you do it at the begining of the process, or at the end - the current version of OpenOffice asks "Are you sure you want to save in Office format" when you go to save, every time.
Keep in mind one of the ways MS Word overtook WordPerfect was by supporting the opening of WordPerfect files
Yes, one way. You couldn't save them. Also, I expect Microsoft had a considerably easier time supporting WordPerfect files because they weren't deliberately obfuscated.
I'm not saying don't support MS Office files, quite the opposite, I'm saying make it as easy as possible for people to convert all of their files to OpenDocument format, be they MS Word, WordPerfect or whatever, but encourage them to treat them as legacy documents, and not to treat OpenOffice as a poor version of MS Office.
OSS fans are always bitching about Microsoft, but they don't seem to have a good strategy for competing them. Microsoft did a lot of fairly simple but very strategic things to get their dominance, OSS developers need to do the same. Here are my ideas for increasing the use of open formats:
1) Make Firefox display OpenDocument formats by default. I know that everyone complains about keeping bloat down, but if the OpenDocument format is going to get widespread use them people are going to have to be able to read it. Besides which, Firefox must already have 95% of the code required to do this.
2) Make a standalone MS Office to OpenDocument translator from the OpenOffice code. I want a tool so that I can drag a Word Document onto an icon on my desktop and it automatically translates it to OpenDocument format. And it should be able to do batch converting too, and to output a log of what it's done and any problems.
3) Take out the MS Office compatibility from OpenOffice. Concentrate on making OpenOffice a great tool for creating OpenDocument format files.
I think many people approach this the wrong way, they say things like - "OpenOffice must be able to write MS Office files so that I can send them to people that only have MS Office." However, what we really should be aiming for is to get in a position so that anyone can happily say "Please send us the document in OpenOffice format" and so that if someone says "Can you send it in Word" you can say "Download Firefox - it reads all OpenOffice files."
People are going to criticise this as unrealistic, but these are exactly the type of strategies that Microsoft used to get their desktop dominance.
Today ICANN announced that they would create a ".arab" top level domain name, to reassure the world that they were not overly influenced by the US government. "We think a .arab domain name would allow arabs to more easily identify arab focused web sites, and demonstrates that at ICANN we don't just focus on the US, but also we try to accomodate less significant countries, like Europe, Canada and Arab places like Iraq." The spokesman added "I'm sure it will also help the fight against terrorism".
They were/are pushing flash as the ultimate rich media supplement to web pages, in many cases capable of supplementing HTML entirely.
Exactly. How many serious web developers actually want that? That's my point - they want you to develop what they want, not what you want.
I've used Macromedia products since their early days. They used to be cool - a big focus on the developer and keeping everything open. They don't feel so cool these days, they just seem to want to squeeze as much money out of me as possible, and I've started to resent it.
For instance, making a "professional" version of the Flash tool - I'm sure pretty much everyone who buys Flash is a professional, the "professional" version is just an excuse to charge extra for things that should be in the main product.
And they are trying to push developers in the direction they want them to go, rather than providing what developers want. For instance, they have a heavy focus now on using Flash for on-line forms and applications, but when was the last time you actually used a Flash application online? And yet many developers use PHP and are now interested in Ruby and AJAX but Macromedia have very poor support for those technologies.
I would like to think something positive will come out of this merger, but I'm afraid the new Adobe will just use their new powers to try to force developers in the direction they want them to go and find new ways to squeeze more money out of them.
Why did they choose eight 'bits' for their quantum 'byte'? For historical reasons, or is there a logical reason to choose eight? Why not seven, or 42?
I'm not being entirely frivolous - I understand quantum computing is radically different from today's architectures and so don't understand why they are choosing a byte size based on what seems to me to be historical factors.
As I understand it, the patent in this case covers sending emails to a pager. How stupid is that?
People will still buy thier product, people accept that it sucks.
This is something that winds me up terribly about Microsoft, or rather, the people who use Microsoft software. For example, a friend has had absolutely terrible problems with his Windows XP laptop, tearing his hair out stuff with viruses and worms and other issues. He was going to buy a laptop for his wife and asked me for my advice. I said, buy an Apple laptop and you won't have all these problems. So what did he get? Another windows machine. Why? WHY??? Because everyone uses Windows, and he was afraid of something different. And this isn't the only example.
I got my old mum and dad a Mac Mini - they love it, and their friends coo over the slide show software and ask me how to buy one. I explain it's an Apple computer, it's cheap and compatible and will have all the software they need already installed. Then I find out later they've brought a Windows machine, because their son uses one and they were afraid that if they got an Apple they wouldn't be able to email him.
Microsoft survives because of the fear most people have of something different. Drives me nuts. My only recompense is saying to these people "You asked my advice and I said buy a Mac then you wouldn't have these issues. So sorry I can't help you. " when they phone me to solve their stupid problems...
Rant over.
The Apple® Mac OSX(TM) version of Glide Effortless is scheduled to be available on Christmas Day December 25, 2005.
Great, a reason for me to get up early of Christmas Day. Good thing I haven't got any family or friends!
How much work would it be to get Mozilla to display Open Document Format documents? Presumably it's already got 90% of what is required.
It would be a big boost for the format if anyone with Firefox could read it.
That's right. We shouldn't trust scientists and engineers to be fiscally responsible, that's the job of government administrators. They always do the right thing, and when did you last hear of someone in government giving out jobs to "their favorite people"? Never happens.
Remember kids, evil terrorists are everywhere. They're watching you now. They want you dead, because they are jealous of your American freedoms. If you're not afraid, you should be.
Remember, President Bush has been chosen by God to protect you. True Americans don't doubt their President, as that doubt would give strength to the terrorists hidden amongst us. All hail President Bush!
$4.5 billion? That's far too expensive. I mean, we could keep our troups in Iraq for almost another month for that kind of money! What are they thinking, wasting it on a stupid big telescope.
Let this be a lesson to the openOffice people. Many people, including myself, have said time and again that openOffice should not be copying Microsoft Office, but instead try to be original and just be a great office suite. By copying MS Office, you are just letting Microsoft define the rules of the game, and you'll always be playing catch-up.
Now office 12 is out, and they've completely redesigned the interface. openOffice have three options:
1) Keep their current interface, and risk looking very outdated in a few years.
2) Put masses of effort and wasted time into copying the new interface, and let MS keep defining the rules of the game.
3) Start to be original and concentrate on making a great and original product.
All the above applies to file formats as well. So much of the effort but into being compatible with MS's horrible formats could have been better spent elsewhere.
Firefox did not become a great browser by copying IE, it did so by being a well designed product and adding original, easy-to-use features.
I have read here that Google is paying a dollar for everyone you can get to switch from IE to Firefox. Is this true? Any Slashdotters acually made any money from this?
I'll be interested to see what Microsoft is going to do in Vista to try to spoil things for Firefox. My guess is even further integration of IE into Windows, and lots of stuff that doesn't even feel like you're using IE will actually be through their browser. Also, they're going to try to get more lock-in on the corporate intranet rather than the public web.
they couldn't care less about the direction Apple is moving
I doubt very much that is true. They may not like it, but to say they couldn't care less is just stupid.
Apple says they'll deliver something by a particular date, and instead deliver it six months earlier. That's very cool. Microsoft should learn from them and stop promising and then failing to deliver products on time.
I don't hate the French. It was a joke.
Personally I think Bush should say to Chirac "I'm sorry about the Iraq thing, you were right, it wasn't a very good idea" - but of course that will never happen.
I read a newspaper article the other day decrying MacDonalds again - criticising their fruit salads. The article (in the UK Guardian as I remember) said that MacDonalds fruit salads had been bathed in artificial chemicals, and how dare MacDonalds feed such dangerous stuff to our children etc. etc. Reading futher into the article, the chemicals in question were citric acid and ascorbic acid (vitamin C).
Things that have recently been found to have positive health properties: beer, chocolate, coffee. In moderation of course.
Personally I follow a very simple rule - eat and drink everything, just don't eat or drink too much of any one thing.
There was an interesting study recently - the French (yes, we hate them, yawn) apparently eat lots of stuff that is supposed to be bad for you, and yet remain healthy and slim. How do they do it? Basically, eat in moderation and don't snack between meals.
Well, I think it all looks pretty boring - just new versions of old games with prettier graphics. It's not the massive leap in performance I was hoping for.
I'm waiting for the PS3 to come out, then I'll decide.
What other nation of the world could guarantee the free speech implicit to the internet, as sites like slashdot are testament to?
Do you really believe that in the rest of the world sites like Slashdot couldn't exist because of free speech laws? If so then you've got a really disorted view of the world.
The level of "free speech" in the rest of the first world is similar to the USA. There are various things you could post to Slashdot that would almost certainly get you a visit from the Secret Services.