Okay, simply show statistics that show the suicide rate at the Foxconn facility in Shenzhen is significantly over the expected value.
Why? You need to understand how the statistics actually apply before looking at more. Higher or lower you're still supporting dizzingly incorrect usage of statistics.
Bullshit - ever since people pointed out that the "obviously higher than usual suicide rate" probably is anything but, the people who didn't use any statistics they didn't make up have accused those who actually provided statistics of raping them. Screw you and all the other losers who did that.
Okay, simply show statistics that show the suicide rate at the Foxconn facility in Shenzhen is significantly over the expected value. Else shut the fuck up.
Well it is tempting to feel superior when standing next to two dolts who are abusing statistics like you are. The original point was that suicide rates are not constant and evenly spread across the whole human race.
Sure, and all pointers to statistics that show that suicide rate amongst Chinese young adults (IOW the group of people that all the deaths at Foxconn fall in) has sharply risen in the last decade, so that now suicide is the prime cause of death in that group, are dutifully ignored by the likes of you. Which of course means we abuse statistics.
Yeah, he'd quote the article thusly:
"The practice is not sanctioned by Apple either. An Apple spokeswoman said while she could not comment on company policy, “consumers could buy iPads directly from us” without any add-ons.". Then he'd go and punch CuteSteveJobs and timothy in the face for such a flamebait story summary.
Foxconn doesn't let their workers take breaks, whereas in the US most states require a break every 2 hours as well as other labor protections (1.5 time for overtime).
So you complain that Apple doesn't allow crashing apps on the App Store, because you would like crashing apps on the iPhone - but you do not want crashing apps on Android.
Before you run around crying "epic fail", you do know that suicide isn't something that just randomly happens to people, right? No, of course you don't.
It's you who claims he has perfect knowledge of why the suicides happened - when in fact you don't even know what you are talking about.
I think the France Telecom example is extremely informative, and contrary to your statements it was treated as a major national crisis.
What statements by me? Oh yeah, the ones you just made up. Go suck a lemon, you just claimed there were no suicides clusters for work related issues but Foxconn.
Unemployment rate in Canada is nearly double than in China - who's spinning again?
Uh huh. Because unemployment in Canada and China is EXACTLY the same!
Take a step back and listen to yourself.
You are of course right: they are completeley different - so why did you bring it up in the first place? Ohh, yeah right, because you thought you could win the argument by doing so. Epic fail.
Scientists define a suicide cluster as three or more suicides in a specific location that occur over a short period of time. On average, there are five suicide clusters each year in the United States, according to psychiatric epidemiologist Madelyn Gould at Columbia University in New York City.
If the first suicide gets media attention, then it's more apt to trigger other suicides. So, Gould cautions, the way the media cover a suicide can be critical.
"We know from studies that have looked at the impact of the media that there is something called the 'dose-response association.' So the size of the increase in suicides following a suicide story is proportional to the amount, and the duration, and the prominence of the coverage."
First, you'd need Chinese rates rather than Canadian ones, as there are non-trivial cultural differences in play.
Second, you'd need rates for the specific demographics that are employed at the factory, and not just ones for the population as a whole. In the US, the elderly have a higher rate than the population as a whole, but the elderly are less likely to be employed in a factory.
Last, as I understand it, they've had 9 suicides at the factory, not just 9 suicides by people employed by the factory. The article isn't clear on whether Foxconn paid benefits for any suicide by an employee or just ones that happen on Foxconn property, but if it's the latter it's certainly a motivator.
What you fail to understand is that all lived in free dormitories at the factory, and all died at the dormitory during their free time.
Suicide is the main cause of death among young adults in China, the state media said yesterday in a report that highlights the growing pressures to succeed in love, work and education in one of the world's fastest changing societies.
How many Foxconn workers offed themselves at home?
All of them - they all threw themselves off their dormitories. Well, one was found dead inside the dormitory, and one probably wasn't a suicide, but still died at his dormitory. http://micgadget.com/3935/breaking-foxconn-10th-jump/
These suicides are well within the statistical expectations for a worker population that large. But People don't care about facts, just emotions.
Really? Is it statistically common for groups of people from the same workplace to throw themselves off the same rooftops in large numbers? I mean, keep in mind that these aren't unrelated people slitting their wrists or taking pills.
I'm hardly the first person to make this point, but consider the last time you heard of a rooftop-suicide epidemic at a major corporation. Can't? That's because even given the huge number of people employed by corporations it's an unbelievably rare event. In fact there have been one or two such examples over the past few decades and they were treated as exactly the unusual and horrifying event that they are.
Correlation != causation. As for suicides at a major employer: France Telecom. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/09/france-telecom-suicides-a_n_531713.html "A report by the French labor inspector's office concluded that 14 cases of suicide, attempted suicide or depression can be considered directly linked with the company's managerial techniques – such as pressuring employees to change jobs or giving them work the employees considered "devaluing."
France Telekom only had around 100,000 employees before the lay-offs. And the number of suicides is actually even larger, those are the cases where they have proof that they are work related. IOW unlike the Foxconn cases.
Typically, he works between 61 and 63 hours per week. It wouldn't be so bad, he says, if the hours were consecutive. But with the gap between jobs, he can only sleep a few hours a night now -- sometimes just an hour. Last week, he managed to clock 87 hours and barely saw his son.
"That's all I do -- every day -- I just keep working," he says. "I've got to. I'm not going to lose everything I have."
Well, Foxconn workers don't have to pay rent, or for (basic) food, nor for medical or psychological treatment. They don't have to work non-consecutive hours with no time to sleep in between, they don't have to commute. They actually have it better than many American workers - not to mention illegal aliens in the US.
Imagine a 100% automated economy. Robots produce food, and other robots repair those robots. You, a human, only need to pay for the energy that goes into that process. But since you are unemployed (robots do everything, remember) you don't have any money, however little it takes to buy food.
Unless your income is based on intellectual property, then only the uncreative will starve.
Slashdot Mirror
Even for "normal desktop" use, that extra inch isn't going to mean much.
Nor does the other one you forgot to mention, hrrm?
Nor the missing core of the Zino. Nor the 0.8 GHz.
It's funny, isn't it? When you use statistics improperly people call you out on improperly using statistics.
Yes, exactly, and that's why the people who claimed the Foxconn suicides were so unbelievable high were called on it - fucking live with it.
Okay, simply show statistics that show the suicide rate at the Foxconn facility in Shenzhen is significantly over the expected value.
Why? You need to understand how the statistics actually apply before looking at more. Higher or lower you're still supporting dizzingly incorrect usage of statistics.
Bullshit - ever since people pointed out that the "obviously higher than usual suicide rate" probably is anything but, the people who didn't use any statistics they didn't make up have accused those who actually provided statistics of raping them. Screw you and all the other losers who did that.
Okay, simply show statistics that show the suicide rate at the Foxconn facility in Shenzhen is significantly over the expected value. Else shut the fuck up.
Well it is tempting to feel superior when standing next to two dolts who are abusing statistics like you are. The original point was that suicide rates are not constant and evenly spread across the whole human race.
Sure, and all pointers to statistics that show that suicide rate amongst Chinese young adults (IOW the group of people that all the deaths at Foxconn fall in) has sharply risen in the last decade, so that now suicide is the prime cause of death in that group, are dutifully ignored by the likes of you. Which of course means we abuse statistics.
What are you basing your 100% certainty on ?
Apart from the fact that TFA is actually saying it several times? Well nothing.
Yet it still escalated to the point of M16s, handcuffs and being marched outside. Land of the free indeed.
So when you call the police to report somebody pointed a gun at you, you'd expect a lecture that you were living in the land of the free.
No wait, you wouldn't have called the police in the first place, you'd shoot anybody who looked like he might point a gun at you, right?
He would sort this shit out quick smart!
Yeah, he'd quote the article thusly: "The practice is not sanctioned by Apple either. An Apple spokeswoman said while she could not comment on company policy, “consumers could buy iPads directly from us” without any add-ons.". Then he'd go and punch CuteSteveJobs and timothy in the face for such a flamebait story summary.
I disagree.
Foxconn doesn't let their workers take breaks, whereas in the US most states require a break every 2 hours as well as other labor protections (1.5 time for overtime).
God are you naive. Ever heard of Wal-Mart? http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2005-11-02-walmart-employees_x.htm
Too long ago? http://ag.ca.gov/newsalerts/release.php?id=1870&, http://ag.ca.gov/newsalerts/release.php?id=1658&, http://ag.ca.gov/newsalerts/release.php?id=1517&
Gee, thanks for clearing up your position.
The ignorant use of statistics here is totally an epic fail on my part.
Thanks for admitting that.
Before you run around crying "epic fail", you do know that suicide isn't something that just randomly happens to people, right? No, of course you don't.
It's you who claims he has perfect knowledge of why the suicides happened - when in fact you don't even know what you are talking about.
I think the France Telecom example is extremely informative, and contrary to your statements it was treated as a major national crisis.
What statements by me? Oh yeah, the ones you just made up. Go suck a lemon, you just claimed there were no suicides clusters for work related issues but Foxconn.
Unemployment rate in Canada is nearly double than in China - who's spinning again?
Uh huh. Because unemployment in Canada and China is EXACTLY the same!
Take a step back and listen to yourself.
You are of course right: they are completeley different - so why did you bring it up in the first place? Ohh, yeah right, because you thought you could win the argument by doing so. Epic fail.
http://micgadget.com/3935/breaking-foxconn-10th-jump/
And yet, the executives who are responsible for the downturn instead get bonuses for the "profit" their lay-offs cause.
Scientists define a suicide cluster as three or more suicides in a specific location that occur over a short period of time. On average, there are five suicide clusters each year in the United States, according to psychiatric epidemiologist Madelyn Gould at Columbia University in New York City.
If the first suicide gets media attention, then it's more apt to trigger other suicides. So, Gould cautions, the way the media cover a suicide can be critical. "We know from studies that have looked at the impact of the media that there is something called the 'dose-response association.' So the size of the increase in suicides following a suicide story is proportional to the amount, and the duration, and the prominence of the coverage."
First, you'd need Chinese rates rather than Canadian ones, as there are non-trivial cultural differences in play.
Second, you'd need rates for the specific demographics that are employed at the factory, and not just ones for the population as a whole. In the US, the elderly have a higher rate than the population as a whole, but the elderly are less likely to be employed in a factory.
And in China, suicide is the leading cause of death for young adults (15–34 years of age).
Last, as I understand it, they've had 9 suicides at the factory, not just 9 suicides by people employed by the factory. The article isn't clear on whether Foxconn paid benefits for any suicide by an employee or just ones that happen on Foxconn property, but if it's the latter it's certainly a motivator.
What you fail to understand is that all lived in free dormitories at the factory, and all died at the dormitory during their free time.
Suicide is the main cause of death among young adults in China, the state media said yesterday in a report that highlights the growing pressures to succeed in love, work and education in one of the world's fastest changing societies.
Based on this, working for Foxconn in China is better than living in Canada, at least as far as suicide risk is concerned.
Only if joblessness isn't a factor in suicide. 'Spin' is a perspective, I suppose.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Economics/Unemployment-rate.aspx?symbol=CNYvs.http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Economics/Unemployment-rate.aspx?symbol=CAD
Unemployment rate in Canada is nearly double than in China - who's spinning again?
How many Foxconn workers offed themselves at home?
All of them - they all threw themselves off their dormitories. Well, one was found dead inside the dormitory, and one probably wasn't a suicide, but still died at his dormitory. http://micgadget.com/3935/breaking-foxconn-10th-jump/
These suicides are well within the statistical expectations for a worker population that large. But People don't care about facts, just emotions.
Really? Is it statistically common for groups of people from the same workplace to throw themselves off the same rooftops in large numbers? I mean, keep in mind that these aren't unrelated people slitting their wrists or taking pills.
I'm hardly the first person to make this point, but consider the last time you heard of a rooftop-suicide epidemic at a major corporation. Can't? That's because even given the huge number of people employed by corporations it's an unbelievably rare event. In fact there have been one or two such examples over the past few decades and they were treated as exactly the unusual and horrifying event that they are.
Correlation != causation. As for suicides at a major employer: France Telecom. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/09/france-telecom-suicides-a_n_531713.html "A report by the French labor inspector's office concluded that 14 cases of suicide, attempted suicide or depression can be considered directly linked with the company's managerial techniques – such as pressuring employees to change jobs or giving them work the employees considered "devaluing."
France Telekom only had around 100,000 employees before the lay-offs. And the number of suicides is actually even larger, those are the cases where they have proof that they are work related. IOW unlike the Foxconn cases.
So Foxconn isn't outsourcing anything - if you want to say someone's outsourcing, blame Apple/HP/etc.
Errm, Foxconn is a Taiwanese company, producing in mainland China is outsourcing for them.
Yes it's irrational but after you work an 80 hour week, almost nonstop, let's see how irrational you become.
Mind telling us how many hours people work per week who need to have 2 jobs to make a living?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125962111284270397.html
Typically, he works between 61 and 63 hours per week. It wouldn't be so bad, he says, if the hours were consecutive. But with the gap between jobs, he can only sleep a few hours a night now -- sometimes just an hour. Last week, he managed to clock 87 hours and barely saw his son.
"That's all I do -- every day -- I just keep working," he says. "I've got to. I'm not going to lose everything I have."
Well, Foxconn workers don't have to pay rent, or for (basic) food, nor for medical or psychological treatment. They don't have to work non-consecutive hours with no time to sleep in between, they don't have to commute. They actually have it better than many American workers - not to mention illegal aliens in the US.
Imagine a 100% automated economy. Robots produce food, and other robots repair those robots. You, a human, only need to pay for the energy that goes into that process. But since you are unemployed (robots do everything, remember) you don't have any money, however little it takes to buy food.
Unless your income is based on intellectual property, then only the uncreative will starve.