Well, I apologize if I overreacted or misinterpreted your comments. This is a touchy subject for me and I felt you were minimizing it (while you apparently felt I was minimizing the Aral Sea issue.) I'm still not sure about you since you've adopted the mining industry's obscuring euphemism of "mountaintop mining" instead of the original terms of mountaintop removal mining or mountaintop removal/valley fill mining. You also used a Bushism, "...look for the log in my own eye before pointing out the speck in someone else's eye" without any hint of irony (but I realize that's difficult to convey via text.) The thing I'd like to point out now, though, is that, even though my original post had some rhetoric you disapproved of, it prompted you to notice it and make an effort to understand the issue I was spotlighting. In that way, the rhetorical device was effective. I'm glad you took the time to look into the issue, even if you came away without a strong position. The media and the populace, in general, seem content to ignore the plight of the land and people of Appalachia, or will even ridicule them because they don't understand the exploitation that's going on. It truly is a Banana Republic situation, except with coal mining replacing banana plantations as the resource being exploited. Just like foreign land owners ran those poor, central american governments and exploited their people, out-of-state mining corporations are controlling West Virginia's government and exploiting the land and people. Future eyes will look back on this tragedy with astonishment and sorrow. The sooner that view arises, the more destruction can be prevented.
Well, I can see why we must have had a run-in if you see things in such black-and-white terms. When people imply that there is only one truth and they posses it, it always sounds a little totalitarian. I really don't have any interest in being on your friends list, but in answer to your questions:
1. Neither Bush - Corporate Whore, underhanded dirty-pool player, liar, fascist. Gore - Corporate Whore, directionless policies, prototypical beurocrat, no vision.
2. Leave 'em where they were and end corporate welfare and personhood and out-of-control military spending. Then adjust as necessary to keep the budget balanced (most likely way lower). Use government spending to build killer infrastructure projects like high-speed rail, cheap broadband, efficient space transportation. Sit back and watch the economy grow like kudzu and the welfare rolls dwindle. Infrastructure gives ALL citizens a stable base from which to build and create. Spend money on that and rest will take care of itself. Spending One Billion Dollars and several young lives per week in Iraq isn't promoting the general welfare or defending US citizens as the Constitution mandates. It's our tax dollars down the rat hole. Deploying a non-functional missile defense system just lines the pockets of well-connected defense contractors at the citizens' expense without helping defend us from anything. We currently spend more than all other countries combined on our military. Is that necessary? We could easily track and identify terrorist organizations by watching international cash transactions but US corporate crooks use the same channels to launder their income and avoid taxes so it goes unchecked. We, the People have lost control of our government. It is now in the hands of Energy conglomerates, defense contractors, and religious fundamentalists. If speaking in favor of citizens and against the traitors who have usurped our revolution is unrightfully bashing "america" (I guess you mean the United States) then, by all means, keep me on your Foes list. I prefer to be a foe to traitors. We, the People will take our government back.
Oh, you know what dark energy is? Please explain to the rest of us how relativity (either special or general) describes the behavior of the universe with regard to these findings. You don't have to be detailed. An overview would be sufficient. The behavior described relates to mass, acceleration, and force. If these aren't Newtonian concepts, I don't know what are. Why are you hiding behind an AC post if your insight is so brilliant?
As far as I can tell, all that was confirmed was an unexplainable acceleration in the expansion of the universe. An acceleration requires a force. A force needs energy to be created. The energy creating this force has eluded our detection, thus rendering it "dark." Ergo, Dark Energy. What's your point?
You have a fellow MCNE on your Foes list. CDE, too. I'd post my number but there's bound to be some way a slashdot geek could cause trouble with it if he wanted. Hackers are resourceful that way.
My biggest issue as of late is the way our login scripts are locked down. That's not the default setting. You're administrator must have configured it that way, which is one of the many benifits of NetWare, total administrative flexibility. You want to give a printer the Write right to a user's Home Address property? It would be a kinda silly thing to do but NDS says, "Sure thing, boss."
Hey, don't beat yourself up too bad, that's what we're here for.:) And besides, you're good enough...you're smart enough...and, doggonit, people like you.:)
When the house is cheating, the solution is to take your money and play elsewhere. Yeah, I hear the software market on Mars is really starting to heat up.
WordPerfect never had any technical rationale at Novell. UnixWare (sold for pennies to SCO) and Linux (spun off to Caldera) did. Did I say anywhere in my previous post that Novell had made good marketing decisions?
I doubt if Novell would actually evangelize a new distro. They're more likely to create one that works seamlessly with their server and directory software and include it with those products. That would grease the path of Linux into the corporate environment without precluding the use of other distros. Novell would effectively be saying, "You want to use Linux? Here, we'll make it easy for you. Want to use a different distro? Knock yourselves out, it's a free country and an open OS. More power to ya." It's an effective strategy if you want to displace Windows.
My read is that Novell would rather control the client. In my view their Windows (& DOS) clients have always tried to "take over" the client machine and duke it out with Windows rather than peacefully coexist with it. That's my personal bias from years of Novell clients on Win boxen, though. (Windows is far from blame itself.) That is a backwards reading of how things happened. When DOS and Windows were just desktop OSes, there was no other network client on the box for the NetWare client to "duke it out" with, so there was no conflict. When Microsoft decided to destroy Novell they began introducing dirty tricks into Windows to hamper the Novell client. One example is the NT GINA (the gizmo that asks for your login credentials on boot-up) which will only pass credentials on to the Microsoft networking client. In order for the Novell client to get a login, they had to replace the GINA. While this appears to be a "take over", it's actually their only choice if they want the client to work without asking the user to reenter their credentials (and then everyone would bitch about how clunky that was.) The Novell GINA is egalitarian in that it passes credentials on to all clients on the box. The "take over" line is FUD.
I just had an odd thought. You've seen the available Java GUI on the NetWare console, right? I wonder if they'll try to make that the Linux client desktop? . . . Nahhh, they aren't that crazy. That would be kind of silly since they just bought Ximian. The Java GUI was just a quick-and-dirty implementation used to impress the PHBs. I don't know anyone who actually uses it unless they have to (like during the install). It's for people who say, "Man, that Ferrari is really nice...except it doesn't have an automatic transmission."
Way to live up to your name, dog cock. At least I have the balls to post using a named account, and I can form a cohesive sentence. . . two things that seem to be beyond your ability.
Amen, brother. Ximian + ZENworks. Has a nice ring to it doesn't it? Directory-enabling the Linux desktop - that seems to be the most logical direction this purchase is moving in.
I'd personally like to see Novell hire the SAMBA team. It would be pretty cool to see them take back the file and print server space from MS using their name on OSS.
Novell hook up with an open source team to emulate a lame Microsoft protocol for file services on Linux? That wouldn't make sense. What would be better is if Novell beefed up the NCP support for Linux and let SAMBA rot in whatever Microsoft environment it found its way into. Microsoft will keep altering CIFS until SAMBA can't keep up.
Re:There might be a few....
on
Novell Buys Ximian
·
· Score: -1, Flamebait
How much does Bill pay these days to spread MS FUD, Troll?
Dude, this is Slashdot. Your arrogant condescension and self-righteous derision over my rhetorical techniques are out of place here. The way you look down your nose at me just invites the invectives you claim to hope to avoid. But I'll refrain from launching a full-on tirade as your faux intellectualism and disingenuous environmentalism clearly point out that you're a juvenile who is still young enough to believe you know everything. Question your own beliefs as thoroughly as you question mine and you'll be on your way to true enlightenment. I was prepared to be civil with you up until that last comment.
You're missing an incredibly important point, though. This is not a valid economic activity. This type of mining is illegal under both the Clean Water Act and the Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act. It's only allowed to continue because the industry has rooted the state and federal government agencies that regulate mining. This is going on over the expressed objection of the people of West Virginia and the United States all because a few powerful, well-connected industries have 0wnz0r3d the WVDEP and the USOSM. When the industry gets taken to court by the citizens (which happens often) the citizens' own Orwellian-named Department of Environmental Protection actually goes to court in defense of the industry that's destroying the environment - and the citizens wind up paying for their defense. This is clear evidence that democracy is broken in this country. Allowing them to continue to export their production costs onto the citizens also skews the economic equation by artificially reducing their product's price on the market. That prevents other mining methods and energy production technologies whose cost is accurately reflected in their market price from maintaining a foothold in the market. So not only do they have no respect for the citizens, democracy, or the environment, they have no respect for free market principles. As I said before, please stop pretending that this is just a simple example of the cost we have to pay to live in a technologically advanced society. This is illegitimate from any angle you view it.
Environmentally, the disappearance of the Aral Sea will lead to regional climate change. This won't happen in WV. Sorry, but that's just wrong. The destruction of hundreds of thousands of acres of forests will definitely affect the climate by reducing the transpiration of water which affects both humidity and air temperature. These are major climate indicators and instigators. The burning of the coal also acidifies many other water resources in the country, damages other forests, and puts mercury in the fish you eat.
In the case of the West Virginia mines, the erosive force of water will eventually carry away the mining debris. You're VASTLY underestimating the size of these operations. There is no flow in these streams. They are GONE. The mountains are gone. They turn entire watersheds into vast, sterile plains. The water flows off the sides, not along the original streams' courses. And what force will rebuild the mountains that are lost? Plate tectonics ceased production here a long time ago.
Complaining that the loss of a large lake is somehow not as bad as filling in valleys with mining waste is not really productive in the grand scheme of things, IMHO. You're right about that. I actually don't believe one is worse than the other. I only worded it that way because I knew it would draw more attention. I put a little P.T.Barnum in the title. I do believe it is more productive to talk about this issue, though, than the Aral Sea because this is an issue we can actually do something about. We (as citizens) have little control over former Soviet republics. We have slightly more control over our own governments. (And I do mean slightly.)
Say someone plunks down a bet that Tony Blair is going to be assassinated. Other people jump on the bandwagon and the price starts skyrocketing. All of a sudden there's this huge financial incentive for somebody, anybody with a stake in the bet, to whack Tony Blair. It creates an incentive to make the things happen that your betting on. Remember, in Vegas they have cameras and security guards to keep people from stacking the decks and rigging the dice. There's no such restraint out in the real world. People will cheat, lie, steal, and even kill if there is a profit to be made.
It's not THAT different. Loss of a water resource compared to . . . loss of a water resource. I never said we should eliminate coal mining. The mountaintop removal/valley fill method is ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE, though. If you think we should do better than what we're doing now, then we're in agreement. We can do MUCH better than this. This method of mining doesn't reduce the COST of coal. It just reduces the PRICE of coal. The cost isn't represented in the price because the out-of-state coal corporations like Massey Energy export the costs of production onto the local populace in the form of reduced quality of life, environmental degradation, infrastructure damage, tax credits, and corrupted government. This is short-sighted, wanton destruction in the name of corporate profits, not a valid economic activity. Don't pretend that this is just normal business that involves simple trade-offs. This is permanent, pointless destruction. If humans went extinct, the Aral would refill but these streams would still be full of mining waste.
...compared to the 1000 miles of streams that have been buried in West Virginia. Not to mention the 15%-25% of southern West Virginia's mountains that have been leveled causing the loss of 300,000 acres of highly productive hardwood forests. All so you can have electricity for 3 cents per kilowatt-hour.
While you're waiting for your absolute, proof-positive, without-a-single-shred-of-doubt, conclusive, unassailable evidence, keep repeating this phrase: "Melanoma is my friend. Melanoma is my friend..."
Slashdot Mirror
Well, I apologize if I overreacted or misinterpreted your comments. This is a touchy subject for me and I felt you were minimizing it (while you apparently felt I was minimizing the Aral Sea issue.)
I'm still not sure about you since you've adopted the mining industry's obscuring euphemism of "mountaintop mining" instead of the original terms of mountaintop removal mining or mountaintop removal/valley fill mining. You also used a Bushism, "...look for the log in my own eye before pointing out the speck in someone else's eye" without any hint of irony (but I realize that's difficult to convey via text.)
The thing I'd like to point out now, though, is that, even though my original post had some rhetoric you disapproved of, it prompted you to notice it and make an effort to understand the issue I was spotlighting. In that way, the rhetorical device was effective.
I'm glad you took the time to look into the issue, even if you came away without a strong position. The media and the populace, in general, seem content to ignore the plight of the land and people of Appalachia, or will even ridicule them because they don't understand the exploitation that's going on. It truly is a Banana Republic situation, except with coal mining replacing banana plantations as the resource being exploited. Just like foreign land owners ran those poor, central american governments and exploited their people, out-of-state mining corporations are controlling West Virginia's government and exploiting the land and people. Future eyes will look back on this tragedy with astonishment and sorrow. The sooner that view arises, the more destruction can be prevented.
Well, I can see why we must have had a run-in if you see things in such black-and-white terms. When people imply that there is only one truth and they posses it, it always sounds a little totalitarian. I really don't have any interest in being on your friends list, but in answer to your questions:
1. Neither
Bush - Corporate Whore, underhanded dirty-pool player, liar, fascist.
Gore - Corporate Whore, directionless policies, prototypical beurocrat, no vision.
2. Leave 'em where they were and end corporate welfare and personhood and out-of-control military spending. Then adjust as necessary to keep the budget balanced (most likely way lower). Use government spending to build killer infrastructure projects like high-speed rail, cheap broadband, efficient space transportation. Sit back and watch the economy grow like kudzu and the welfare rolls dwindle.
Infrastructure gives ALL citizens a stable base from which to build and create. Spend money on that and rest will take care of itself. Spending One Billion Dollars and several young lives per week in Iraq isn't promoting the general welfare or defending US citizens as the Constitution mandates. It's our tax dollars down the rat hole. Deploying a non-functional missile defense system just lines the pockets of well-connected defense contractors at the citizens' expense without helping defend us from anything. We currently spend more than all other countries combined on our military. Is that necessary? We could easily track and identify terrorist organizations by watching international cash transactions but US corporate crooks use the same channels to launder their income and avoid taxes so it goes unchecked.
We, the People have lost control of our government. It is now in the hands of Energy conglomerates, defense contractors, and religious fundamentalists. If speaking in favor of citizens and against the traitors who have usurped our revolution is unrightfully bashing "america" (I guess you mean the United States) then, by all means, keep me on your Foes list. I prefer to be a foe to traitors.
We, the People will take our government back.
Oh, you know what dark energy is? Please explain to the rest of us how relativity (either special or general) describes the behavior of the universe with regard to these findings. You don't have to be detailed. An overview would be sufficient.
The behavior described relates to mass, acceleration, and force. If these aren't Newtonian concepts, I don't know what are.
Why are you hiding behind an AC post if your insight is so brilliant?
As far as I can tell, all that was confirmed was an unexplainable acceleration in the expansion of the universe.
An acceleration requires a force. A force needs energy to be created. The energy creating this force has eluded our detection, thus rendering it "dark." Ergo, Dark Energy. What's your point?
You have a fellow MCNE on your Foes list. CDE, too.
I'd post my number but there's bound to be some way a slashdot geek could cause trouble with it if he wanted. Hackers are resourceful that way.
My biggest issue as of late is the way our login scripts are locked down.
That's not the default setting. You're administrator must have configured it that way, which is one of the many benifits of NetWare, total administrative flexibility. You want to give a printer the Write right to a user's Home Address property? It would be a kinda silly thing to do but NDS says, "Sure thing, boss."
Hey, don't beat yourself up too bad, that's what we're here for. :)
And besides, you're good enough...you're smart enough...and, doggonit, people like you.:)
Ow, my face hurts from all those smileys.
When the house is cheating, the solution is to take your money and play elsewhere.
Yeah, I hear the software market on Mars is really starting to heat up.
WordPerfect never had any technical rationale at Novell. UnixWare (sold for pennies to SCO) and Linux (spun off to Caldera) did.
Did I say anywhere in my previous post that Novell had made good marketing decisions?
I doubt if Novell would actually evangelize a new distro. They're more likely to create one that works seamlessly with their server and directory software and include it with those products. That would grease the path of Linux into the corporate environment without precluding the use of other distros. Novell would effectively be saying, "You want to use Linux? Here, we'll make it easy for you. Want to use a different distro? Knock yourselves out, it's a free country and an open OS. More power to ya." It's an effective strategy if you want to displace Windows.
Ain't skeerd (of a command line)
My read is that Novell would rather control the client. In my view their Windows (& DOS) clients have always tried to "take over" the client machine and duke it out with Windows rather than peacefully coexist with it. That's my personal bias from years of Novell clients on Win boxen, though. (Windows is far from blame itself.)
That is a backwards reading of how things happened. When DOS and Windows were just desktop OSes, there was no other network client on the box for the NetWare client to "duke it out" with, so there was no conflict. When Microsoft decided to destroy Novell they began introducing dirty tricks into Windows to hamper the Novell client. One example is the NT GINA (the gizmo that asks for your login credentials on boot-up) which will only pass credentials on to the Microsoft networking client. In order for the Novell client to get a login, they had to replace the GINA. While this appears to be a "take over", it's actually their only choice if they want the client to work without asking the user to reenter their credentials (and then everyone would bitch about how clunky that was.) The Novell GINA is egalitarian in that it passes credentials on to all clients on the box. The "take over" line is FUD.
I just had an odd thought. You've seen the available Java GUI on the NetWare console, right? I wonder if they'll try to make that the Linux client desktop? . . . Nahhh, they aren't that crazy.
That would be kind of silly since they just bought Ximian. The Java GUI was just a quick-and-dirty implementation used to impress the PHBs. I don't know anyone who actually uses it unless they have to (like during the install). It's for people who say, "Man, that Ferrari is really nice...except it doesn't have an automatic transmission."
Ain't skeerd (of a command line)
Novell didn't fail because the market wasn't ripe, Novell failed because they bungled the whole thing.
Don't forget, the market was also rigged. Even if they had made nothing but perfect decisions, they still would have failed.
Way to live up to your name, dog cock.
At least I have the balls to post using a named account, and I can form a cohesive sentence. . . two things that seem to be beyond your ability.
Or it could imply that Novell had plenty of cash on-hand.
Amen, brother.
Ximian + ZENworks. Has a nice ring to it doesn't it?
Directory-enabling the Linux desktop - that seems to be the most logical direction this purchase is moving in.
I'd personally like to see Novell hire the SAMBA team. It would be pretty cool to see them take back the file and print server space from MS using their name on OSS.
Novell hook up with an open source team to emulate a lame Microsoft protocol for file services on Linux? That wouldn't make sense. What would be better is if Novell beefed up the NCP support for Linux and let SAMBA rot in whatever Microsoft environment it found its way into. Microsoft will keep altering CIFS until SAMBA can't keep up.
How much does Bill pay these days to spread MS FUD, Troll?
Dude, this is Slashdot. Your arrogant condescension and self-righteous derision over my rhetorical techniques are out of place here. The way you look down your nose at me just invites the invectives you claim to hope to avoid. But I'll refrain from launching a full-on tirade as your faux intellectualism and disingenuous environmentalism clearly point out that you're a juvenile who is still young enough to believe you know everything. Question your own beliefs as thoroughly as you question mine and you'll be on your way to true enlightenment.
I was prepared to be civil with you up until that last comment.
You're missing an incredibly important point, though. This is not a valid economic activity. This type of mining is illegal under both the Clean Water Act and the Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act. It's only allowed to continue because the industry has rooted the state and federal government agencies that regulate mining. This is going on over the expressed objection of the people of West Virginia and the United States all because a few powerful, well-connected industries have 0wnz0r3d the WVDEP and the USOSM. When the industry gets taken to court by the citizens (which happens often) the citizens' own Orwellian-named Department of Environmental Protection actually goes to court in defense of the industry that's destroying the environment - and the citizens wind up paying for their defense. This is clear evidence that democracy is broken in this country.
Allowing them to continue to export their production costs onto the citizens also skews the economic equation by artificially reducing their product's price on the market. That prevents other mining methods and energy production technologies whose cost is accurately reflected in their market price from maintaining a foothold in the market. So not only do they have no respect for the citizens, democracy, or the environment, they have no respect for free market principles.
As I said before, please stop pretending that this is just a simple example of the cost we have to pay to live in a technologically advanced society. This is illegitimate from any angle you view it.
Environmentally, the disappearance of the Aral Sea will lead to regional climate change. This won't happen in WV.
Sorry, but that's just wrong. The destruction of hundreds of thousands of acres of forests will definitely affect the climate by reducing the transpiration of water which affects both humidity and air temperature. These are major climate indicators and instigators. The burning of the coal also acidifies many other water resources in the country, damages other forests, and puts mercury in the fish you eat.
In the case of the West Virginia mines, the erosive force of water will eventually carry away the mining debris.
You're VASTLY underestimating the size of these operations. There is no flow in these streams. They are GONE. The mountains are gone. They turn entire watersheds into vast, sterile plains. The water flows off the sides, not along the original streams' courses. And what force will rebuild the mountains that are lost? Plate tectonics ceased production here a long time ago.
Complaining that the loss of a large lake is somehow not as bad as filling in valleys with mining waste is not really productive in the grand scheme of things, IMHO.
You're right about that. I actually don't believe one is worse than the other. I only worded it that way because I knew it would draw more attention. I put a little P.T.Barnum in the title. I do believe it is more productive to talk about this issue, though, than the Aral Sea because this is an issue we can actually do something about. We (as citizens) have little control over former Soviet republics. We have slightly more control over our own governments. (And I do mean slightly.)
I can see it now,
Martin Sheen lights up a cigarette while a spook tells him,
"His methods have become . . . unsound."
"You want me to terminate him?"
"Terminate . . . with extreme prejudice."
Later, we see Poindexter sitting in the dark, wiping a wet towel over his bald head, asking Martin Sheen,
"Are you an assassin?"
"I'm a soldier."
"You're neither! You're a errand boy. Sent by grocery clerks to collect a bill."
Say someone plunks down a bet that Tony Blair is going to be assassinated. Other people jump on the bandwagon and the price starts skyrocketing. All of a sudden there's this huge financial incentive for somebody, anybody with a stake in the bet, to whack Tony Blair. It creates an incentive to make the things happen that your betting on.
Remember, in Vegas they have cameras and security guards to keep people from stacking the decks and rigging the dice. There's no such restraint out in the real world. People will cheat, lie, steal, and even kill if there is a profit to be made.
It's not THAT different. Loss of a water resource compared to . . . loss of a water resource.
I never said we should eliminate coal mining. The mountaintop removal/valley fill method is ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE, though. If you think we should do better than what we're doing now, then we're in agreement. We can do MUCH better than this. This method of mining doesn't reduce the COST of coal. It just reduces the PRICE of coal. The cost isn't represented in the price because the out-of-state coal corporations like Massey Energy export the costs of production onto the local populace in the form of reduced quality of life, environmental degradation, infrastructure damage, tax credits, and corrupted government. This is short-sighted, wanton destruction in the name of corporate profits, not a valid economic activity. Don't pretend that this is just normal business that involves simple trade-offs. This is permanent, pointless destruction.
If humans went extinct, the Aral would refill but these streams would still be full of mining waste.
Check out Balzout.
And they're in NITRO, baby!
...compared to the 1000 miles of streams that have been buried in West Virginia. Not to mention the 15%-25% of southern West Virginia's mountains that have been leveled causing the loss of 300,000 acres of highly productive hardwood forests.
All so you can have electricity for 3 cents per kilowatt-hour.
That, and the flow is very reduced by that lil thing we call the Hoover Dam.
While you're waiting for your absolute, proof-positive, without-a-single-shred-of-doubt, conclusive, unassailable evidence, keep repeating this phrase: "Melanoma is my friend. Melanoma is my friend..."