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Novell To Cease NetWare Development?
Karl Cocknozzle writes "CNET News is reporting that Novell may discontinue NetWare following the purchase of Linux software company Ximian - for details on the purchase, see the recent Slashdot article. Novell plans to run its NetWare services - such as eDirectory and Secure Identity Management - on the Red Hat and SuSE Linux distributions."
The company name 'Scovell' *does* have a certain ring to it.
This really shouldn't shock anyone. Novell has already stated that NetWare 7 will allow the installer to choose between Linux or NetWare kernels. Can you say migration path?
The recent Novell Connections magazine talked about their Linux strategy up to NetWare 7. So far, no one has talked much about what comes after. With Novell's history of shifting strategies, I think I'll just take it one day at a time.
the no
This has already been predicted several months ago. This is probably a good thing for Novell, as they no longer have to focus on the ENTIRE OS, just their proprietary services, and therefore can make more advances such as further seamless integration with windows clients and the addition of seamless integration for UNIX/Linux clients. While never particularly a fan of the entire OS itself, I've always admired the capabilities of the Netware solution. This really looks like a good sign for the future.
Netware has been dead for some years now. THe advent of Linux has basically killed the use of Netware. The only place Netware is still installed is in already existing places, where, indeed it performs upto its reputation.
Remeber this story about the Novell server that was hidden in a walled off section of the University of North Carolina?
The found it after 4 years of it being missing, and still working perfectly, never dropping packets and doing it's job perfectly. Now that's what I call uptime!
I wonder if they will wall it back up after they put SuSE on it?
MMORPG fan-boy? Prove your worth
From the article:
"NetWare will continue to exist with a large customer base, and we will continue to maintain it as long as customers want it," said Chris Stone, vice chairman at Novell. Stone said he thought NetWare support would continue for the foreseeable future, even if development does not. "There are still people using (the) VMS (operating system) and minicomputers. Just because development stops, doesn't mean people stop using it."
It's nice to see a company that admits it will have to continue to support an old product and will continue to do so. However, it's yet to be seen how long this attitude will last.
But at least they have decided not to follow Microsoft's precedent for dumping all support for old products when new ones roll around.
Good news, at least for now.
My cousin, who works for Novell, said everyone at Novell was worried that the purchase spelled the end of Netware. The management held meetings to assure everyone that this was *not* the case.
I'm not sure we can know one way or the other. Companies can change their minds very quickly. Anyway, FWIW, that's the scoop I heard from an employee.
...this mean they will be SCO's next target?
Speaking at Defcon 12 - Credit Card Networks Revisted: Pen
Back in the day, Netware was very nice. I remember using it at my first intern position in the windows 3.1 days. I guess the world has moved on. Its strange to think that many of the /. crowd has never seen it in action.
The moves indicate a major shift in strategy for Novell, which only a year ago positioned Linux as the enemy and didn't show up at LinuxWorld. Now company executives are saying open-source software is the future for the industry and their company.
:)
I guess Novell pulled a smart move of "Can't beat 'em, join 'em!" a year ago. Got to love the history points amoung articles making the view point a lot easier to understand. I "think"
This space is not for rent.
i have been trying to get my school district to look at linux for a variety of solutions. i get the same anti-linux crap. my district is a novell shop, from netware to gropwise, etc. i feel justified. almosty makes me want to send the idiots the articles. why the hell not. i teach history. they can't fsck with me.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
It's one thing to move to a services-based model.
However, it's another matter entirely to move to a model wehre instead of shipping a large, propeitary, unique product no one else has [NetWare] you are providing essentially a pure service-- you are taking products anyone else could have picked up and assembled (ximian, etc) and assembling them in a way that anyone could have done, but probably someone not doing it professionally could not do in as nice, coherent or usable a psckgage-- is another matter altogether.
Now, given, this service will surely make lots of people much happier than they would have been either under NetWare or Outlook. But it's still a very bold, risky move.
Kudos to Novell for having the courage.
-- super ugly ultraman
as a (former) huge Novell fan who still supports a few Netware clients (& runs netware at home), I say
THANK GOD.
I like the Novell kernel - but unfortunately programmers have gotten worse & don't want to take the time required to properly code drivers or modules for it. Everything runs at RING 0 - this means it's fast. It also means it's not a good market for developing software on it.
The Linux kernel has gotten Pretty Darned Good - with all of the modern features necessary in a state-of-the-art kernel. My complaint with it is that you can't scale Linux to multiple servers (from a management standpoint) like you can Netware.
Linux with Novell's style of enterprise management (eDirectory, cross-platform tools, open access to data, outstanding workstation management tools, etc.) would be a dream system to administer. It would also be innovative enough to handily compete with Microsoft's lack of enterprise management tools.
If I remember reading right, Novell sold the rights to license Unix to SCO, recieving a certain amount of profits from SCO every year.
If this is right, I assume that Novell also retains ownership rights to Unix. I wonder how this story affects the SCO/Linux and now Redhat/SCO lawsuits, Redhat being one of distributions Novell choose.
Looks like they're also going to port GroupWise to Linux, so we'll have yet another new groupware, email, calendar thingie to play with.
I've been waiting for something like this. This renders all of our NetWare servers obsolete as we can run eDirectory and the likes on top of our favorite operating system. I really like to see a product list of what they gonna put out. I don't want to see a new distribution, just the rpm's m'am. This changes everything(!). They've already made some good moves about bundling NAMP (Lamp on NetWare) in NetWare 6.5 with loads of open source tools. The Enterprise is more open minded then it was just a year ago. Strategic, IMHO.
Girls are strange. They don't come with a man page.
-- Michael Mattsson
The poster asks a valid question.
Novell (who has been quoted as saying that the issue between them and SCO isn't completely over) is now investing in Linux as part of their business model.
They have different roots than a Linux distro house like RedHat or SuSE, but they'll eventually push out their own Novell Linux distro. Yeah, my money is on Novell continuing to have issues with SCO, and vise versa.
One hell of a game of chicken.
-- I'd say your post was about 3 monkeys, 18 minutes.
At least, that's a big indicator for the industry that nobody in the UNIX business takes SCO FUD seriously.
One might think that Novell knows what they are talking about when it comes down to UNIX IP...
Of course, none of us need this indicator, but for the managers out there with very little technical knowledge about to say "Hmmm, Linux, let's wait until the SCO problem is settled", that's a pretty good indicator that SCO is just a piece of shit.
Write boring code, not shiny code!
Novell Denies It's Killing Off NetWare
Network software and service vendor Novell, meanwhile, upped the ante of its bet on Linux by announcing that it was porting its GroupWise groupware and collaboration software to the open-source OS.
Novell, which has been rushing to shift to Linux, announced Tuesday that its GroupWise collaboration platform will run entirely on Linux in the first half of 2004, when both client and server software is finalized. The Linux version of the GroupWise client is currently in beta, while the server software will enter beta in September.
GroupWise, which is part of Novell's Nterprise suite, does e-mail, calendaring, instant messaging, document management, and workflow management. Currently it runs on Windows and Novell's own NetWare operating systems. The Linux edition will also integrate with Ximian's Evolution collaboration client, promised Novell. The Provo, Ut.-based Novell acquired Ximian earlier this week.
Novell's pitch is just the latest in a round of moves by companies to port their collaboration and workgroup software to Linux. Last week, IBM Lotus said that it would include Linux support in the next version of its Domino Server, which is scheduled to debut as part of Notes 6.5 this fall.
"Enterprises are looking at Linux and open standard platforms for their messaging and collaboration applications," said Maurene Caplan Grey, a research director at Gartner.
Novell also announced that it's added support for Red Hat Enterprise Linux AS and SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 8 to its eDirectory directory service software.
eDirectory 8.7.1, which will be available August 8, will add support for these two Linux distributions to the already-available support for Windows, Solaris, NetWare, and AIX. Additional authentication features, including support for biometrics, smart cards, and tokens, will also be part of the upcoming edition. eDirectory will be priced at $2 per user, said Novell, with volume discounts available.
Also at LinuxWorld, reports surfaced that Novell was taking an even bigger step towards Linux by discontinuing development for its flagship NetWare network operating system.
That talk is all wrong, said Novell's president and CEO, Jack Messman on Wednesday.
"Novell is not dropping NetWare, we're adding Linux," said Messman.
Novell's shipping NetWare 6.5, the most recent version of its OS, next week, added Messman, and when it debuts NetWare 7.0 -- which is still in development -- the operating system will support both the NetWare and the Linux kernels.
"NetWare is not going away. Period," said Messman.
John Kerry is a Joke!
What will they be doing with the code? Holding onto it or distributing it? If they would release it would anyone want it?
Maybe a ransom like with blender? The more free code the better.
I expect Novell kept rights to use UnixWare IP in their products when they sold the stuff to SCO, so I imagine they're untouchable.
Then again, I imagine that of IBM and SCO is suing them anyway.
"Novell brings all of this to the table, with enterprise support. Now you don't have to hack OpenLDAP, and sell it to the "Pointy-Hair" crowd."
That's assuming one could get the damn thing to cooperate.
Anyway. SGI Boosting Linux to 128 Processors . Linux is growing up.
I'm shocked! Amazed! dumbfounded!
They were still developing for Netware until now? I thought they died off years ago!
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
In future versions they have promised Netware will either run on a Netware kernel or a Linux kernel. Netware 8 may only have the option of a Linux kernel but Novell can still call it Netware if they want.
The question is how tightly they can wrap there added value services like eDirectory, iPrint, iManager, etc without having to GPL them as well.
Cheers
VikingBrad
I think it's intresting that 2 of the comapines that have real insight into SCO's claims about Linux are both betting that Linux will still be around and growing next year.
I suspect Novell is certainly up to something. Why? Novell wants to use linux as its default OS for the new netware product which will run on Linux.
But there's a snag. SCO is suing IBM, and possibly countersuing Red Hat. So what's a nervous Novell supposed to do?
Sue SCO. This will probably come at a shock to more than a few of you. But remember when SCO announced that it had ownership to the copyright to UNIX and didn't really transfer the copyrright to SCO?
First there was This statement. Then came the retraction.
In this article Chris Stone says:
The funny thing is that upon reading the retraction carefully, Novell never said SCO was right. It was carefully worded. It said, that the documents "appeared" to be valid. If you read it one way, it agrees with SCO. If you read it another it doesn't.
Interesting, No?
Well,
Let's first consider something: The number one barrier to acceptance of linux for home users is the availability of a good suite of office productivity tools. Vi and emacs don't count for the home users; you need to provide them with Word, or something that looks just like, and one that can open the Word docs they are sent .
What company recently purchased a mature linux desktop software company, and released the code base as open source (charging only for deluxe versions that come with extra fonts and some support)? That company was Sun, and the software is openoffice. How many other software companies have spent millions to acquire mature software programs, and then turned around and released the source to the public? I think you can count them on one hand.
So, I'm expecting to read below a little Sun bashing. It's typical of
Just keep in mind which company is trying to help linux. Sure, you might not believe Sun's claim that Solaris and linux work with different segments of the market, and aren't competitors. But I think Sun's actions speak louder than words.
Recently Sun decided to offer and then withdraw linux blades. Somehow, people see this as proof that Sun hates linux, or sees it as competition to Solaris. This view is naive. Are we to believe that a company that built its fortune on Solaris would mistakenly offer a competitive product (linux), and then suddenly realize "Oh, shit. We shouldn't be selling that after all!"? Are we to believe that a company as savy as Sun would only later realize there was market cannibalization with the two products? NO. The truth is Solaris and Linux are not competitors, at least in marketing. Sure, you can "compare" them all you want, and even point out some annecdotes about a few companies switching from Solaris to Linux. But if you look harder, you'll also find an equal number of annecdotes of companies switching from Win to Solaris, from Solaris to Win, from Linux to Win, and every damn permutation.
While I'm not some Sun cheerleader, I do get tired of the tin-foil hat folks who think there's something sinister about Sun offering linux blades, and then realizing they can't sell them as well as Dell or other shops. Please, folks, let's remember that amongst all the HUGE unix software companies, Sun is perhaps the most open-souce friendly of them all, and they're also a cool, socially conscious company. As you run openoffice, keep that in mind.
"Novell also announced on Tuesday that it would be porting its entire GroupWise collaboration software, a product that significantly overlaps with Ximian's Evolution client, to Linux. The applications handle e-mail, scheduling and contact information to keep employees organized. Although Novell intends to support both software packages, the eventual goal is to have only one, said Stone."
Evolution is presently distributed under the GPL, so of course Evolution in its present state can not be "closed".
But, as far as I can tell, Novell Groupwise is not open source. Is this correct? I admit that I do not have any experience with their products.
What I am worried about is that the above quote is meant to suggest that the technologies in Evolution will be integrated with Novell's own proprietary solution, and that future development of Evolution as an open source product will be called into question, or will be seriously slowed.
Are these fears justified, or am I missing something here?
.sig Realistic fines for copyright in
Your fears are not justified, you are missing something - what's happening with other largish corporations working with OSS.
IBM have ported Linux to their s390 the code is still open. That's how GPL works, and IBM benefit from community contributions, peer review, reduced development costs and all the benefits that OSS brings.
Apple use OSS software extensively in OSX. Stuff that includes Samba, CUPS, OpenSSH, XFree86, and in all these cases Apple returns the code to their respective projects and honours the GPL.
SGI have moved lots of their formally commercial code to the GPL.
It's when a Corp "Gets it" that they cooperate and participate with the OSS methodoligies. It does work, and does save them and make them money.
I have little doubt that Novell will eventually, or already have "Got it" and move key parts of their NDS and Groupware technologies to GPL bound Open code.
Novell is a very valuable friend for the OSS community to have.
Just one gripe; I mentioned this story yesterday!!??
I for one hope they will dump the old console interface as it sucks pretty bad as it is.
For years it used to run in a single thread which would hang on the first defunct NLM you'd try to unload during shutdown or whatever. If you're smart and know which module is causing trouble on a NetWare box, you unload all other critical modules, and then the defunct one lastly before downing.
It was only in Netware 5 that you got the option of spawning more consoles and dismounting your volumes when things got out of hand; you can use these to unload a couple of the more critical applications before you have to turn of the power, because you won't get the server downed normally.
Some POSIX flavour added to Netware wouldn't hurt. An option to kill - and I mean kill - a process would be a great improvement. It may be possible already (I'm still on Netware 5), but then I'm just stupid, aren't I. :-)
zWhat would an EWOULDBLOCK block, if an EWOULDBLOCK could block would? -- me
I've asked our novell representative in the netherlands about this. :
he forwarded me an e-mail from the CEO
A recent news report coming out of the LinuxWorld Conference suggests that Novell is considering stopping development of NetWare. We're not. Despite Novell's firm and frequent statements concerning continued development and support for NetWare, discussion of Novell's Linux strategy invariably leads to concern over Novell's NetWare commitment. Let us put those concerns to rest.
As we've said repeatedly, Novell is not dropping NetWare, we're adding Linux. Novell's focus is on the customer, and the customer wants choice. As we stated in April of this year, and again yesterday at LinuxWorld, we will make Novell's services available both on a NetWare kernel and a Linux kernel going forward. Novell has a large installed base of NetWare users, and we'll continue to serve those customers as we've always done. NetWare 6.5, the latest version of NetWare with powerful new services for business continuity, open source, Web application services and "virtual office" capabilities, begins shipping next week. . We have also announced that NetWare 7.0 is in development, that it will run on both the NetWare and Linux kernels, and that we will have more to say on it when it is appropriate. This is hardly a sign of reduced commitment
NetWare is not going away. Period.
Jack Messman
Chairman, President and CEO
Novell, Inc.
This is a very brave thing for them to do. They had a good product in the 80,s and maybe 90's and realised that times have changed. Instead of holding on to their product and using dirty tricks to try and stay alive without a good product, they decided to use what they can and move on.
I'm also getting very tired of all the SCO stuff, but this is really what SCO should've done. But then they would not have had a higher share price and a dickhead at the top.
But still, congrats to Novell for being brave. I hope they survive well. SCO on the other hand...
"I used to have that really cool,funny sig
Considreing that IPX is nto really used anymore, in modern Novell installations, this is the only part of your comment that I agree with...
You're missing one item. The examples corporations listed above didn't *buy* the development team. This means Novell will own the copyright to the code, and can stop releasing it under the GPL. Yes, we will always have the existing code, but they could theoretically enhance it, and make it closed. I have no idea if this will happen, but it could.
After having just spent about one year doing Netware admin, I must say that this is good news. The Netware console is so primitive, that there were numerous times when I would have loved being able to have plain old Bash around for simple things like file copying, scripts etc.
These worries aside, it will be good to see solid tools like Netware and NDS/eDirectory rise.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Netware was killed by a demand for application servers that it was ill-suited for and did not have (or had in small, unstable numbers). A lot of places switched to NT4 because of the wealth of applications that could be run on it concurrently with filesharing. Web servers and client-server databases were the biggest culprits.
Linux and NT4 filled the bill there and as a bonus for smaller organizations, could do file and print at the same time.
I think if Novell had moved the filesharing and directory components to an application model instead of the blended OS/application model that it was, and made filesharing/directory available on Linux and NT4 with a less expensive licensing scheme they'd still be out there as contenders for new business, and perhaps keeping marketshare from Microsoft.
I'm not knocking Netware for it base usage -- file and print with a solid directory and security model -- for that, even a 6 year old copy of 4.11 is superior to Win2k. But the fact that it made a poor application server, if you could find reasonably stable applications to run on top of it, is where it failed badly.
In larger organizations I can see why they kept it going -- the directory is great, and larger organizations find it easier to manage a large, heterogeneous environment anyway, so adding Linux or NT or whatever boxes for application serving wasn't as much a cost or management issue as it was in smaller organizations that sought greater efficiencies.
Err. Linux and Netware are two completely different beasts:
User Management in linux is abysmal compared to NDS.
Hell, there are no inherited rights/filters on ext3 (or multiple ownerships)
There is no salvage in Linux (yes idiot users will delete files they want to keep)
There are no workstation tools for admin'ing linux boxes. (like - nwadmin, filer, ndir, rights)
I run both Netware and Linux, and there's a place for both. My only hope is that the tools, and rights flexibility are kept intact with a Linux kernel on the backend.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
My wife had took over the technology at a school that was still based on netware. It had been years since I had seen the stuff, but I was drafted anyway. After spending a couple of years on it, I cheered when the school system dropped it. While the server is fairly stable it offers no compelling value to justify it's cost. Additionally, the resources to maintain it are specialized and expensive. Again, this is unjustifiable. Everything that Novell offered is built into every major OS (they only used directory, file, and print services). In terms of stability, there had to be a specialized guy out there every few weeks to fix the thing.
I think this is a great move by novell. From what I have seen, Netware as an OS only detracts from their bottom line. It forces them to port everything to their proprietary platform. Adopting linux as the underlying OS makes the platform more flexible and adds value to their services.
I guess if it's not Linux then we can expect you to be ignorant.
Agreed.
:)
We got rid of IPX here two years ago, and we had over 20,000 users, which took a little time to migrate.
Anyone still running IPX has some issues
Its multi-processor support is way behind everyone elses. You might as well just run single processor.
Virtual memory sucks, too. But then, virtual memory sucks most of the time.
As you've noted, ring 0 is fast. But any module can take out the entire server. ARCServe is notable for doing this fairly frequently.
Now the good things. It uses DOS to load itself. This might sound bad, but it makes troubleshooting a problem very easy.
Also, everything is a module. You can find the exact module that is causing the problem. You can make sure that module does not load. This gives NetWare its amazing uptime.
"There is no salvage in Linux (yes idiot users will delete files they want to keep)"
Funny store about that from when I worked at our Help Desk..
Some lady called up all worried because she accidentaly deleted some new mail that she didn't want to delete. Her email program wasn't set up to move deleted messages to a trash folder or anything so they were indeed gone. However, I was able to get her new mail for that day back using salvage. Instead of being happy that I got her oh so important email back, she got mad because I also recovered some other new messages that she didn't want to be recovorable.
The management held meetings to assure everyone that this was *not* the case.
Whenever management holds one of these kinds of meetings to say something is going to happen or not happen, make sure you wear you rubber wader boots that go hip-high because the BS is going to be flowing deeply.
NetWare volumes kick ass. Fantastic permission architecture, unbelievable performance. I hope their strategy shift doesn't include letting it die. Would'n it be nice to have it integrated in the Linux kernel?
That goes for NCP too, although I think NDS (or whatever they call it these days) depends heavily on that. Am I right?
Ahhh, good memories of being a CNE! (circa 1994/97)
Newtware was/is a great product, but it was very very expensive. Don't you guys think?
I don't think so, Groupwise sucks.
Maybe another product (IBM... bring Lotus Notes!... which sucks too, but sucks less than GW and is more powerful)
It doesn't allow you to create a DMZ between your two NICs
Could you clarify what you mean by that? Thanks.
I don't think IPX has any business existing anymore.
At my house, we need IPX to play Doom II deathmatches, but that's about all it's still useful for.
Instead of holding on to their product and using dirty tricks to try and stay alive without a good product, they decided to use what they can and move on.
Ahhhhh grasshoppah, you have not such good memory. Novell did do dirty tricks back in the mid-late 90's when NT4 was just beginning to get rolling. Novell jacked their prices up, got nasty with licensing of Netware and drove huge waves of existing and prospective new customers away to buy NT4 networks instead because NT was cheaper at the time and few people forsaw the evil MS was about to become. Now look what mess we've got. If Novell would not have been so greedy back then and competed more fairly against MS pricing and licensing, and jumped on the TCP/IP protocol bandwagon sooner to win those customers instead, Netware would still be the dominant NOS in the industry.
I could be way off here but with all the new 64 bit processors coming out it seems like it would be easer to use the existing/forth coming 64 bit LINUX kernel for there services to run on as it looks like most servers will be using these new processors
...what about the *file and print services*, which is the only thing I wanted Netware for in the first place? Hello? Guys? Remember file service?
sort of agree I guess but look up TOOLBOX.NLM sometime... this will give you the ability to do much of what you want. I think you will find between toolbox.nlm and the other tools on the server you can accomplish most whatever you want from the server. I also think it is really, really stupid that they dont provide toolbox.nlm with the standard distro, since you can get it free from novell's site anyways
Master CNE #9530077
The heart of Netware is NDS, Novell directory Services, and it's not really important what operating system or kernel it runs on. You can run NDS on NT (not really logical, since you've already shelled out all that money) or Linux. When NDS 1st came out, it was light years ahead of what Microsoft had to offer. However, Netware, the OS, was not the friendliest environment to work in and the number of people who know it in and out is dwinding. BUT there's an army of people who know Linux and are willing to help you for free or a fee. A Microsoft network admin is not going to rip out his "investment" in NT/2000 and replace it with something unfamiliar. However, a unix/linux admin may consider doing so if it's offered on a platform that he or she is familiar with - Linux os, x-windows GUI and flawless integration with the rest of his unix and Linux enviroment. Obviously Windows desktops will be able to authenticate into NDS and use resoruces on Linux boxes...AND maybe some day in the future the admin will be able to get rid of the Windows 2000 Professional/XP desktop and replace it with...you guessed it, Ximian desktop + easy software distribution and management.
If I was a Network Manager at a small, 50-500 person company, I would definitely consider ripping out NT and replacing it Novell's offerings some time down the road.
Novell's strength is in their understanding (and implementation) of clever architectures such as NDS. Much like the development of clever standarsds such as LDAP and HTTP have resulted a number of profitable products, Novell's continued development of their "good stuff," no matter the platform, will be good for Novell.
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
well. here are two of the solutions. one, we had a "PC" lab for three years wothout any file server, although we were promised one. i suggested as a temporary solution setting up a samba server, since we a) already had the hardware, and b) it was free. i can't tell you how much student work was lost being saved locally. reasonable?
two. we have tons, like over 125 old pentium 120-166's with 32 mb ram. real creamers, huh. they sit, totally unused. now, some were trying to be used, but when you couple running windows, zenworks, norton, novell client, et al., then try to run even IE, well, it chokes. so i proposed an ltsp type solution. we could do two labs for $3000-4000. (the server cost alone. we had the boxen, the cables, etc.) reasonable?
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
As a net admin you have no idea how great this is to hear that novell is finaly wising up!
WEEEEEEE!
-makoffee
Sounds decent. ALTHOUGH, I have to admit.. 'temporary' solutions are rare ;) They seem to turn into permanant solutions once they work adequately. Then what do you do about backups, restores, adding/deleting users. Managing home directory sizes, Integrating email (single sign-on).
A whole bunch of crap that Linux can mostly do, but is a learning curve even for me (I just tar/ftp stuff to my Netware box for backup).
Does that curve, some missing functionality (I know Linux can't backup open files), and a free OS outweigh the cost of user licenses?
two. we have tons, like over 125 old pentium 120-166's with 32 mb ram. real creamers, huh. they sit, totally unused. now, some were trying to be used, but when you couple running windows, zenworks, norton, novell client, et al., then try to run even IE, well, it chokes. so i proposed an ltsp type solution. we could do two labs for $3000-4000. (the server cost alone. we had the boxen, the cables, etc.) reasonable?
Sounds like a plan.. but the above still applies. I actually would like to do an LTSP+Mosix network.. but I also can't imagine losing my Netware box, the integration for EASILY logging into a Netware box from Linux isn't there yet. (See my previous posts in the last Novell article).
So while you have some good ideas, and I agree with your last plan, you have to look long term. IMHO, a good example is PBX's. I used to run a Fujitsu 9600. This thing is the Unix of PBX's. I can make it do just about anything you want, but it comes at a price. A high price.
Where I work now, we have a Norstar POS. It's 'easy to use', and costs less. It does what we need NOW. But, I can't do reasonalby simple things like block incoming calls from certain phone numbers. Or see how many T1 channels are used by whom at any given time.
Your solutions solve the immediate problem, but you need to consider what requests the users will have in the future. Also, how easy is it to wipe out or add a whole slew of students at the end and beginning of the school year in Linux?
I think you'd have to do Samba+LDAP.. How many people can manage that kind of directory scheme -or even recreate it? If you die, the district needs to be able to replace you fairly easily.
I like the LTSP solution... Your problem: creating local users based on NDS users. Check out PAM-LDAP, and grab one of those extra systems. Don't bog it down with crap, just get LTSP+OpenMosix working. You may have to do it afterhours, but do it so it will work WITH your existing network. Afterall, you're only adding workstations. You have to show that it works, AND you will have to do some funkiness to automount Netware home directories and the like..
At that point, you have the flexibility to compare the Netware/Linux feature set (that you use), and decide if you want to move your file/print to Linux also.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
Novell's support pack 3 has toolbox in it. If you update, youve got 'cp' and more! Also, as stated by someone else here, there is a beta bash shell for netware at forge.novell.com
Client sites I've worked at didn't roll Novell servers because it's Novell, but because it's a stable directory management/resource sharing appliance. They could care less what kernel us under the hood, as long as it remains easy to administer and stable.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
1) we are a junior high. 7th and 8th graders. plus, most work need not be saved more than the length of the project. and no work would need to be carried over into the next year. it would have been temporary for the reesons just mentioned, and we ended up getting 30 new dell's (funny, most classes are 32, DOH!!) and they are set up so horribly with win98. they coul dhave at least tried to make win2k work. arghhhhh!!
2) student needs. internet and word processing, and some powerpoint stuff. plus, art could have used gimp, etc. we have 1600 students, (still) one computer lab. yes, every classroom has at least one computer. some have 2-3. this helps the teacher, but does nothing for the students.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
Seems like CNet jumped the gun and didn't get confirmation -- see this eWeek article:
"SAN FRANCISCO--Novell Inc. dismissed reports that it is planning to phase out new NetWare development in favor of Linux.
A Novell executive Wednesday told eWEEK that the Provo, Utah, company has no plans of cutting NetWare development in favor of Linux, as some reports had indicated.
Chris Stone, vice chairman of the company, said NetWare will continue in maintenance mode, comments Novell officials said were taken out of context.
Chris Stone speaks out on Ximian, Microsoft and SCO. Read his interview with Microsoft Watch.
"We're into Linux, that's why we're here," said a Novell executive, who asked not to be identified. "That's why we bought Ximian. And we said that with Version 7.0 you'll have a choice of either upgrading to the NetWare base or moving to Linux. But with $400 million of our revenue in NetWare, that would be ridiculous for us to abandon development on it."
Bruce Lowry, top spokesman for Novell, said, "The bottom line is no. The whole thing with Linux is an additive thing. We're not dumping NetWare, we're adding Linux.""
And there's more but I'm not going to paste the whole article.
Ever since Netware 4.x, Novell's primary PRODUCT has been NDS. The OS, file sharing, printer sharing, were all window dressing on the real Killer-App feature of any good NOS; robust Directory Services.
When they ported NDS to Windows, and then to other platforms - it became obvious that the OS under NDS was irrelevant, and more of a liability than an asset (because of the redundant learning curve).
That said - I really liked Netware as an OS. For one reason only: ctrl-alt-leftshift-rightshift. The debugger - built right into the OS. Available any time you needed it. Unlike NT, where in order to figure out what Microsoft's loopy MFC code is doing, you had to install Visual Studio onto a machine, assuming you have the disk space, and memory requirements, and assuming that doesn't totally alter the mix of dlls on the system and thus the behavior. For debugging, Microsoft's operating systems totally SUCK ASS.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
They should have done this with UnixWare right
away. But better late than never.
You have a fellow MCNE on your Foes list. CDE, too.
I'd post my number but there's bound to be some way a slashdot geek could cause trouble with it if he wanted. Hackers are resourceful that way.
- Hail to our fearless misleader! Fool speed ahead!
* You install windows, you install novell dir trees.
* You install solaris, you install novell dir trees.
From an architectural standpoint Novell is NOT an OS. It's a directory service like NIS, active directory. It's the only OS on the planet that requires another OS. lol
What does Novell think it can bring to the table now, aside from squandering great products?
Thanks for the info. I tried toolbox.nlm but what I found really frustrating was that one doesn't seem to be able to do remote authentification with it. But for standard tasks it's actually quite ok.
It is not dead, get some facts first -
. chat , nntp://support-forums.novell.com/novell.support.ne wsflash or nntp://support-forums.novell.com/novell.community. chat.linux-services
"A recent news report coming out of the LinuxWorld Conference suggests
that Novell is considering stopping development of NetWare. We're not.
Despite Novell's firm and frequent statements concerning continued
development and support for NetWare, discussion of Novell's Linux
strategy invariably leads to concern over Novell's NetWare commitment.
Let us put those concerns to rest.
As we've said repeatedly, Novell is not dropping NetWare, we're adding
Linux. Novell's focus is on the customer, and the customer wants
choice. As we stated in April of this year, and again yesterday at
LinuxWorld, we will make Novell's services available both on a NetWare
kernel and a Linux kernel going forward. Novell has a large installed
base of NetWare users, and we'll continue to serve those customers as
we've always done. NetWare 6.5, the latest version of NetWare with
powerful new services for business continuity, open source, Web
application services and "virtual office" capabilities, begins shipping
next week. . We have also announced that NetWare 7.0 is in devel!
opment, that it will run on both the NetWare and Linux kernels, and
that we will have more to say on it when it is appropriate. This is
hardly a sign of reduced commitment
NetWare is not going away. Period.
Jack Messman
Chairman, President and CEO
Novell, Inc."
&
"Novell is NOT discontinuing development of Netware. We are adding
functionality to work with Linux servers. For quite some time our
customers have requested to make our products more "cross-functional".
This decision has been made in order to meet that requirement.
With the release of Netware 7 there will be 2 options. 1. To run
completely on Netware and, 2. To run on a Linux Kernal. Sometime this
Fall Novell plans on releasing Nterprise Linux Services that will allow
some of our products to run in a Linux environment.
I'm sorry that you seemed to of been mislead. Again, Novell is NOT
discontinuing support or development of Netware, we are only adding
Linux functionality for those customers that want it.
If you have further Novell pre-sales product questions, respond to this
e-mail or call the Customer Response Center.
Thank You!
Novell, Inc., the leading provider of Information Solutions
Customer Response Center
1-888-321-4272
crc@novell.com"
if you want more on this check out nntp://support-forums.novell.com/novell.community
no one uses ipx anymore, novell hasnt since 1998. I dont know why you are still using it.
Namaste
I have a feeling that Novell is probably going to keep to their promise of supporting older revisions of Netware, and not pull the same FUD Microsoft does every time they release a new revision. Why?...NOVELL DOESN'T HAVE TO...Because of how rock solid they've made Netware....They will continue to gain new revenue from the trust that sysadmins place in them...they don't need to push their linux revision, as people may just decide to not even use the netware revision...they're very good about choosing how they market...
well I only put people there for unrightfully bashing america. Should you want to switch to my friends list you only have to answer 2 questions: 1. Bush or Gore? 2. Lower taxes or raise taxes?
not like I really care either way, as I managed to fill up both lists in about a week until I discovered there is an upper limit. Anyways. Glad we can use our MCNE certificates roll doobies with or something...
We have an OS2 voicemail server running since 1997--that except for a HD crash--has never been down. This box is slated to be replaced today with a W2K box...ugh
8 years ago Novell had the file & print market in their back pocket, now they are lossing customers on a daily basis. The good thing for them is they have no debt and a ton of money in the bank. The also have diehard "NetWare Nazi" IT base out in the world. But these people are becoming more scarce. Novell has about 3-5 year s of life before the shareholders demand a sell off. Look at the stock now, soome people could buy the company on their credit card.....
And couldn't perform well enough to warrant releasing it as the flagship product. The Netware OS is written to do one job very very well, both in terms of reliability and performance. You can't beat that with a general purpose OS. Even after they bought Unix, they still couldn't change it enough to do the job without rewriting it to be Netware.
Supporting Linux clients is a natural move on their part, but don't think that they'd jump at making the mistake of porting the file server again.
If my research is correct....Netware is probably the most secure network OS available....thats a big deal to me.....not to mention its stable.
Well, I can see why we must have had a run-in if you see things in such black-and-white terms. When people imply that there is only one truth and they posses it, it always sounds a little totalitarian. I really don't have any interest in being on your friends list, but in answer to your questions:
1. Neither
Bush - Corporate Whore, underhanded dirty-pool player, liar, fascist.
Gore - Corporate Whore, directionless policies, prototypical beurocrat, no vision.
2. Leave 'em where they were and end corporate welfare and personhood and out-of-control military spending. Then adjust as necessary to keep the budget balanced (most likely way lower). Use government spending to build killer infrastructure projects like high-speed rail, cheap broadband, efficient space transportation. Sit back and watch the economy grow like kudzu and the welfare rolls dwindle.
Infrastructure gives ALL citizens a stable base from which to build and create. Spend money on that and rest will take care of itself. Spending One Billion Dollars and several young lives per week in Iraq isn't promoting the general welfare or defending US citizens as the Constitution mandates. It's our tax dollars down the rat hole. Deploying a non-functional missile defense system just lines the pockets of well-connected defense contractors at the citizens' expense without helping defend us from anything. We currently spend more than all other countries combined on our military. Is that necessary? We could easily track and identify terrorist organizations by watching international cash transactions but US corporate crooks use the same channels to launder their income and avoid taxes so it goes unchecked.
We, the People have lost control of our government. It is now in the hands of Energy conglomerates, defense contractors, and religious fundamentalists. If speaking in favor of citizens and against the traitors who have usurped our revolution is unrightfully bashing "america" (I guess you mean the United States) then, by all means, keep me on your Foes list. I prefer to be a foe to traitors.
We, the People will take our government back.
- Hail to our fearless misleader! Fool speed ahead!
Try Doom Legacy. TCP/IP multiplayer (other things too).