1. This is an informal thread. For someone who's supposed to be so intelligent, you might have noticed that.
2. Thanks for noticing the issue with the link.
3. I don't have a Masters degree from Harvard, does that make me a pissant? No it does not. I have friends that do have a PhD's from Harvard, and well, they think I have some intelligence, so I guess that validates me a little. You know, coming from a State U and all.
4. I'm glad that 4 scientists agree with Demore. There are nearly 6 million scientists and engineers in the US alone. I would say globally, several million. Let's take the US number. So, your 4 scientists work out to...OMG, its infinitesimal. Hmmm, infinitesimal is a great word, its like " You know, I've always liked that word... 'gargantuan'... so rarely have an opportunity to use it in a sentence. " -Elle Driver
I'm guessing you are not a mathematician, because you would not be so impressed with that number if you were. Get back to me when you've interviewed at least 10%.
Though there were some points that appeared to be injecting some form of nicety to dull the huge slap in the face, it did not work. The undercurrent and spirit of the memo was noticed. I guess we are not that ignorant after all.
Hear, hear butchersong. I've been badgered for so long that sometimes I can be a little harsh myself. I need to think on this further and then I will answer your questions in more detail.
My first IT job paid me 26K per year in mid 90's. Plus bonus. I then moved on to make 38K. Then 42K. Left for the Valley and jumped to 97K plus bonus to 120k during dotcom time. Big jump. Happily.
As for the rest, I've seen a lot of it and so have many of my peers and friends. If you have not, consider yourself fortunate.
It sure grabbed your attention, didn't it? And that, was my goal. So, while you may not care for my style, at least I 'manned up" uh, woman'd up and used my name. How about you? Oh wait, that is your name. Anonymous Coward! Pleased to make your acquaintance.
Oh, one more thing. Despite your perspective, I don't have to be perfect for the likes of someone like you.
godrik, you may want to look at the comments further down the thread. It's a wonderful example of bullying behavior. I am going to try to only answer the positive comments now. I'm getting drawn into the negativity. Not good.
Ya know what, I was not thinking of that when I wrote it. Was kind of being creative and spontaneous in an informal setting. But, I suppose I should have written it in a way an imbecile could read it.
First off...Anonymous Coward, this is a thread and not a creative writing class! If you cannot understand that...you are the one with the issue and should get off the internet. Secondly, if you had seen what I created the comment in, you would understand. And lastly, I have written a book and I am published. Have you?
I'll add one more thing. You don't scare me! If you think you can bully me with your comment you've got another thing coming. So for all of you reading this...it's this kind of little jerk that's the problem. Are you trying to invalidate someone else so you feel better? Take my advise, it never works. Why? Because you still will get up in the morning and look in the mirror and fall short. So why don't you fix it and get a constructive HOBBY.
I get what your saying cloud.pt, I try not to do that but it can be difficult.
I do know some misogynists that are nerds too. Overall, the field has changed a lot. I think the whole world has changed in what is being found as acceptable behavior in regards to privacy and just plain manners. I think what really rings true in my head is that these companies are inadvertently paying people to harass one another. And this memo was a way of doing that, though he tried to disguise his point with points from studies to validate himself. Google might want to reconsider trying to get everyone to think of their campus as home, because it appears that people have gotten a little too comfortable and have forgotten that it is actually a publicly traded company.
YES, I did read the memo. Try replacing all the words of Women or Woman or females with Asian, black or hispanic. I'm guessing you will notice how screwed up it sound then.
You're a good man. Thank you for caring about us enough to write on our behalf. Most of these we are discussing don't respect women in the first place, so they will never listen to our cries for equality. It takes men such as you, to make a lasting change in their thought patterns.
I read this article (see bottom of thread), felt like screaming and then felt compelled to write about my experiences and thoughts on the matter. ****I am a women in Information Technology and I have been doing this since 1995. Actually, even before that time since I worked at a computer camp at age 17 teaching BASIC computer language. ****Before there was oodles of money in IT, I rarely experienced prejudice and sexism in my job. I loved what I did and all of the guys in my field were very nice and helpful. They were collaborative and fun to be around. I never felt out of place and I did what anyone else was doing without anyone blinking an eye. When the dollar signs started to increase a lot of men must have thought "Well, I could like Tech if there's money in it." and started studying CS in school. Later, they would emerge into the dotcom time where money was flowing like honey. The boys club moved into my world and it has never been the same. **** I've been marginalized, badgered, stalked, ostracized, been the center of vicious gossip, denied work expenditures, had someone digging into my childhood and family and had IT peers hack into my home PC turn it on and listening to private conversations. Sadly, the list goes on and that last item is more common than you would believe. Note that that kind of voyeuristic behavior would have had someone in jail before the 90s. (Just creepy if you ask me.) But, the good guys are still there and they are somewhat left behind as well. They quietly watch the bullies from the Lord of the Flies and go about their business. ****This hierarchy that these guys have created is brutal. They are each testing boundaries trying to find out where they fit in and the weakest and most insecure pick on women. They pick on women because first and foremost, it bonds them with other men. Secondly, they do it because they can't hack being at the bottom of the pecking order and a woman is a nice target. Woman will often say nothing in a blind attempt to keep the peace. And if they do say something, they become a bitch. Which of course fits in with the first item mentioned, it bonds them with other men. ****So, what does this have to do with Information Technology? NOTHING! Yeah, that's right. Nothing! So, all of your money, all of your private information, all IoT (Internet of Things), all of your Security is exposed to this lot of people! Hence why this guy was fired. Google is smart enough to realize that they hold information about ALL of us. Male, female, straight, gay, black, white, Asian, Hispanic, transgenders etc. And guess what, we all want a say in who has our information and how it is used. We all want them to show empathy with our personal information and lives. And if Google, Facebook and IBM etc. are experimenting with AI, most of us would want them to build a system with agents that are compassionate. How will that happen if all of it is run by men who live like we are all on an island like the Lord of the Flies? So, I beg everyone to think about these ideas. We cannot afford this kind of behavior at the height of an epoch of science and discovery that has the tell tale signs of a change that will effect all of human existence as we know it. As for James Damore and his so called manifesto, his call for the elimination of empathy in IT is so short sighted that I can barely believe it. How can someone with such intelligence be so blind to how dangerous that would be. Hey wait, I answered my own question. He's on the island of The Lord of the Flies, that's how. He's not thinking properly. http://www.businessinsider.com...â¦
Note: I may sound hostile, because I have been driven to it. You want to know how we ended up in this place? Why you are all living with this backlash? Here is a sample of why.
Try this on for size. I'm a female, in IT for 18 years. Treated equally until all dotcom time when men from all over entered the field for the money and did not even like it. Then, I was bullied by boys club number 1 (job 3). Denied expenses, because I would not let someone take credit for my work or let my boss rub my shoulders.
Next job bullied by boys club number 2 in (job 4), given tasks that none of the boys wanted to do like network drawings and cleaning up configurations and troubleshooting all of their fucking mistakes, generally wiping their asses because they were incapable of any discipline. They would all BBQ together and screw one each others wives. Difficult to be one of the team when that is happening.
Boys club number 3 in job 5. Not only harassed me, but thought they could bully another very smart male engineer out of his 50k in parachute money. They'd stand outside in their smoking club plotting ways to get rid of people that could make them look bad. (which was anyone who knew how to do their job) They probably worked 2 hours out of a day, if that, and constantly fucked up the network. Treated the network as if it were a lab, deploying new products on a live network! One of these guys actually took one of the nice guys drawings and put his name on the bottom of it in an attempt to impress the company that was taking over via a merger. Jerk.
Boys club number 4 in job 5, I was managing an IT team. Boys club constantly throwing algorithm questions at me to try to show me up. Failed, but damn them. Tried to belittle me in meetings, but I did not let them. I was well trained by previous boys clubs. One actually told me not to worry my "pretty little head" about a routing mistake he made. A mistake that took thousands of people offline.
Boys club number 5 job 6, digging in my personal life and family. Turning on my microphone to listen to my conversations at home. Contacting old boys clubs and new position to gang up on me. By far the biggest assholes. Main asshole, would treat the network like his own personal home network. Change routing protocols on the fly, deploy everything without a change control, leave open food and soda containers and garbage all over the data center. Leave cables all over the place and then would treat anyone who asked him a questions as if they were an idiot, was generally an ass to everyone. Basically a slob. His side kick was a developer who would listen in on all the personal conversations throughout the company, gathering details about their lives like a voyeuristic creep. Shameful. They basically thought I did not know what they were doing therefore felt superior.
So, if you are dealing with disenchantment...join the club! I loved my field until it filled up with these kinds of people. I'm disheartened because all I ever wanted, was to do my job and do it well. However, there is this sick contingent that will not let me!
Some of positions above were full time and others contracts. I am a contractor now , so the stuff you see above is just a sample. There are so many more injustices I have seen that I could share with you, but will no because this post is already looking like a novel. SO IT IS LOOKING LIKE WE ARE ALL FEELING SCREWED NOW.
Don't we all have better things to do in IT? The bad guys are doubling up daily and the rest of us are fighting among themselves. Sounds a lot like GoT! We will all be fucked if we don't start respecting one another for what we bring to the table.
Though I could rant on about the prejudice and mistreatment that has plagued me in this field of IT, I am going to say what needs to be said about the depth of fear I feel over this so called manifesto! This engineer's inability to understand what the company he worked for actually does, is somehow both disturbing and expected.
As many of you already know, Google has been working on collecting genome data, health data, creating artificial intelligence and basically trying to find a way to expand its business into every aspect of our human lives. The aggregation of this information requires not just empathy for humankind, but also requires that the people that manage and care for its data mining, storage etc. have integrity and the ability to show care with how this information is used and secured. I fear Information Technology professionals may not be up to the task and it is truly upsetting.
I'll add that we are not sure where this quest for AI will lead us. We do know that Facebook shut down Artificial Intelligence agents because they created their own language outside of human understanding. AI has the potential to cause great harm and it is of the utmost importance that each and everyone us understand this and that we fully engage ourselves (male and female) and decide what actually makes us human and what would make AI sentient. Because, we ALL have a stake in this endeavor! As for the Google engineer that was let go. I think it is a good thing, because he is showing a lack of understanding that is necessary for such responsibility.
Slashdot Mirror
Oh, and by the way, he does not have a PhD from Harvard. But, I still think his points should he noted.
1. This is an informal thread. For someone who's supposed to be so intelligent, you might have noticed that. 2. Thanks for noticing the issue with the link. 3. I don't have a Masters degree from Harvard, does that make me a pissant? No it does not. I have friends that do have a PhD's from Harvard, and well, they think I have some intelligence, so I guess that validates me a little. You know, coming from a State U and all. 4. I'm glad that 4 scientists agree with Demore. There are nearly 6 million scientists and engineers in the US alone. I would say globally, several million. Let's take the US number. So, your 4 scientists work out to ...OMG, its infinitesimal. Hmmm, infinitesimal is a great word, its like " You know, I've always liked that word... 'gargantuan'... so rarely have an opportunity to use it in a sentence. " -Elle Driver
I'm guessing you are not a mathematician, because you would not be so impressed with that number if you were. Get back to me when you've interviewed at least 10%.
Though there were some points that appeared to be injecting some form of nicety to dull the huge slap in the face, it did not work. The undercurrent and spirit of the memo was noticed. I guess we are not that ignorant after all.
Yes, that is my observation.
Yep.
Hear, hear butchersong. I've been badgered for so long that sometimes I can be a little harsh myself. I need to think on this further and then I will answer your questions in more detail.
Just answering the call for intel, BUDDY.
My first IT job paid me 26K per year in mid 90's. Plus bonus. I then moved on to make 38K. Then 42K. Left for the Valley and jumped to 97K plus bonus to 120k during dotcom time. Big jump. Happily. As for the rest, I've seen a lot of it and so have many of my peers and friends. If you have not, consider yourself fortunate.
Truly amazing, isn't it?
It sure grabbed your attention, didn't it? And that, was my goal. So, while you may not care for my style, at least I 'manned up" uh, woman'd up and used my name. How about you? Oh wait, that is your name. Anonymous Coward! Pleased to make your acquaintance. Oh, one more thing. Despite your perspective, I don't have to be perfect for the likes of someone like you.
godrik, you may want to look at the comments further down the thread. It's a wonderful example of bullying behavior. I am going to try to only answer the positive comments now. I'm getting drawn into the negativity. Not good.
Ya know what, I was not thinking of that when I wrote it. Was kind of being creative and spontaneous in an informal setting. But, I suppose I should have written it in a way an imbecile could read it.
First off ...Anonymous Coward, this is a thread and not a creative writing class! If you cannot understand that...you are the one with the issue and should get off the internet. Secondly, if you had seen what I created the comment in, you would understand. And lastly, I have written a book and I am published. Have you?
I'll add one more thing. You don't scare me! If you think you can bully me with your comment you've got another thing coming. So for all of you reading this...it's this kind of little jerk that's the problem. Are you trying to invalidate someone else so you feel better? Take my advise, it never works. Why? Because you still will get up in the morning and look in the mirror and fall short. So why don't you fix it and get a constructive HOBBY.
Not to mention this is a thread for comments on the internet. Not a creative writing class.
All I can say, is have them all read threads like these on Slashdot! Get them prepared and teach them to stand up for themselves.
I get what your saying cloud.pt, I try not to do that but it can be difficult. I do know some misogynists that are nerds too. Overall, the field has changed a lot. I think the whole world has changed in what is being found as acceptable behavior in regards to privacy and just plain manners. I think what really rings true in my head is that these companies are inadvertently paying people to harass one another. And this memo was a way of doing that, though he tried to disguise his point with points from studies to validate himself. Google might want to reconsider trying to get everyone to think of their campus as home, because it appears that people have gotten a little too comfortable and have forgotten that it is actually a publicly traded company.
YES, I did read the memo. Try replacing all the words of Women or Woman or females with Asian, black or hispanic. I'm guessing you will notice how screwed up it sound then.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke SO VERY TRUE!
This has been going on through both dem and rep administrations.
You're a good man. Thank you for caring about us enough to write on our behalf. Most of these we are discussing don't respect women in the first place, so they will never listen to our cries for equality. It takes men such as you, to make a lasting change in their thought patterns.
I read this article (see bottom of thread), felt like screaming and then felt compelled to write about my experiences and thoughts on the matter. ****I am a women in Information Technology and I have been doing this since 1995. Actually, even before that time since I worked at a computer camp at age 17 teaching BASIC computer language. ****Before there was oodles of money in IT, I rarely experienced prejudice and sexism in my job. I loved what I did and all of the guys in my field were very nice and helpful. They were collaborative and fun to be around. I never felt out of place and I did what anyone else was doing without anyone blinking an eye. When the dollar signs started to increase a lot of men must have thought "Well, I could like Tech if there's money in it." and started studying CS in school. Later, they would emerge into the dotcom time where money was flowing like honey. The boys club moved into my world and it has never been the same. **** I've been marginalized, badgered, stalked, ostracized, been the center of vicious gossip, denied work expenditures, had someone digging into my childhood and family and had IT peers hack into my home PC turn it on and listening to private conversations. Sadly, the list goes on and that last item is more common than you would believe. Note that that kind of voyeuristic behavior would have had someone in jail before the 90s. (Just creepy if you ask me.) But, the good guys are still there and they are somewhat left behind as well. They quietly watch the bullies from the Lord of the Flies and go about their business. ****This hierarchy that these guys have created is brutal. They are each testing boundaries trying to find out where they fit in and the weakest and most insecure pick on women. They pick on women because first and foremost, it bonds them with other men. Secondly, they do it because they can't hack being at the bottom of the pecking order and a woman is a nice target. Woman will often say nothing in a blind attempt to keep the peace. And if they do say something, they become a bitch. Which of course fits in with the first item mentioned, it bonds them with other men. ****So, what does this have to do with Information Technology? NOTHING! Yeah, that's right. Nothing! So, all of your money, all of your private information, all IoT (Internet of Things), all of your Security is exposed to this lot of people! Hence why this guy was fired. Google is smart enough to realize that they hold information about ALL of us. Male, female, straight, gay, black, white, Asian, Hispanic, transgenders etc. And guess what, we all want a say in who has our information and how it is used. We all want them to show empathy with our personal information and lives. And if Google, Facebook and IBM etc. are experimenting with AI, most of us would want them to build a system with agents that are compassionate. How will that happen if all of it is run by men who live like we are all on an island like the Lord of the Flies? So, I beg everyone to think about these ideas. We cannot afford this kind of behavior at the height of an epoch of science and discovery that has the tell tale signs of a change that will effect all of human existence as we know it. As for James Damore and his so called manifesto, his call for the elimination of empathy in IT is so short sighted that I can barely believe it. How can someone with such intelligence be so blind to how dangerous that would be. Hey wait, I answered my own question. He's on the island of The Lord of the Flies, that's how. He's not thinking properly. http://www.businessinsider.com...â¦
Note: I may sound hostile, because I have been driven to it. You want to know how we ended up in this place? Why you are all living with this backlash? Here is a sample of why. Try this on for size. I'm a female, in IT for 18 years. Treated equally until all dotcom time when men from all over entered the field for the money and did not even like it. Then, I was bullied by boys club number 1 (job 3). Denied expenses, because I would not let someone take credit for my work or let my boss rub my shoulders. Next job bullied by boys club number 2 in (job 4), given tasks that none of the boys wanted to do like network drawings and cleaning up configurations and troubleshooting all of their fucking mistakes, generally wiping their asses because they were incapable of any discipline. They would all BBQ together and screw one each others wives. Difficult to be one of the team when that is happening. Boys club number 3 in job 5. Not only harassed me, but thought they could bully another very smart male engineer out of his 50k in parachute money. They'd stand outside in their smoking club plotting ways to get rid of people that could make them look bad. (which was anyone who knew how to do their job) They probably worked 2 hours out of a day, if that, and constantly fucked up the network. Treated the network as if it were a lab, deploying new products on a live network! One of these guys actually took one of the nice guys drawings and put his name on the bottom of it in an attempt to impress the company that was taking over via a merger. Jerk. Boys club number 4 in job 5, I was managing an IT team. Boys club constantly throwing algorithm questions at me to try to show me up. Failed, but damn them. Tried to belittle me in meetings, but I did not let them. I was well trained by previous boys clubs. One actually told me not to worry my "pretty little head" about a routing mistake he made. A mistake that took thousands of people offline. Boys club number 5 job 6, digging in my personal life and family. Turning on my microphone to listen to my conversations at home. Contacting old boys clubs and new position to gang up on me. By far the biggest assholes. Main asshole, would treat the network like his own personal home network. Change routing protocols on the fly, deploy everything without a change control, leave open food and soda containers and garbage all over the data center. Leave cables all over the place and then would treat anyone who asked him a questions as if they were an idiot, was generally an ass to everyone. Basically a slob. His side kick was a developer who would listen in on all the personal conversations throughout the company, gathering details about their lives like a voyeuristic creep. Shameful. They basically thought I did not know what they were doing therefore felt superior. So, if you are dealing with disenchantment...join the club! I loved my field until it filled up with these kinds of people. I'm disheartened because all I ever wanted, was to do my job and do it well. However, there is this sick contingent that will not let me! Some of positions above were full time and others contracts. I am a contractor now , so the stuff you see above is just a sample. There are so many more injustices I have seen that I could share with you, but will no because this post is already looking like a novel. SO IT IS LOOKING LIKE WE ARE ALL FEELING SCREWED NOW.
Don't we all have better things to do in IT? The bad guys are doubling up daily and the rest of us are fighting among themselves. Sounds a lot like GoT! We will all be fucked if we don't start respecting one another for what we bring to the table.
Here, here.
Though I could rant on about the prejudice and mistreatment that has plagued me in this field of IT, I am going to say what needs to be said about the depth of fear I feel over this so called manifesto! This engineer's inability to understand what the company he worked for actually does, is somehow both disturbing and expected. As many of you already know, Google has been working on collecting genome data, health data, creating artificial intelligence and basically trying to find a way to expand its business into every aspect of our human lives. The aggregation of this information requires not just empathy for humankind, but also requires that the people that manage and care for its data mining, storage etc. have integrity and the ability to show care with how this information is used and secured. I fear Information Technology professionals may not be up to the task and it is truly upsetting. I'll add that we are not sure where this quest for AI will lead us. We do know that Facebook shut down Artificial Intelligence agents because they created their own language outside of human understanding. AI has the potential to cause great harm and it is of the utmost importance that each and everyone us understand this and that we fully engage ourselves (male and female) and decide what actually makes us human and what would make AI sentient. Because, we ALL have a stake in this endeavor! As for the Google engineer that was let go. I think it is a good thing, because he is showing a lack of understanding that is necessary for such responsibility.