I've got news for you--the dirt-cheapest Dell that you can get with a DVD-RW is the Dimension 3000, without a monitor) for $585 after shipping (they charge $99 even without a monitor--)...and that's without FireWire and with a pathetic 90 DAY warranty. And Dell is already the king of razor-thin margins.
Take an iBook, lop off the LCD, scrape off the keyboard and speakers, and replace the 4200 rpm laptop hard drive with a 7200 rpm full-size one...voila! Identical specs to what they're describing here (even down to the ports/power supply, if you check AppleInsider.com).
Dunno if this is considered spam or flooding, but I posted this link earlier--it compares the *theoretical* specs for this *rumored* bare-bones Mac against Dell's low-end *actual* offering of today:
(Oh, and it's rumored to run $500, not $600 FWIW).
Note that $500 for a Dell system gets you: --crappy-ass integrated graphics w/shared memory --a 512 MB RAM limit (!) --no CD-RW --no DVD-ROM
Now, of course there's no way of knowing whether this rumored "miniMac" is real--at $500--or not, but even if it isn't, the Dell configged at the link above is pretty pathetic, no?
OK, I know this is *incredibly* premature and *highly* speculative, but I was curious about just how this theoretical new "headless eMac" unit might stack up against one of Dell's bottom-of-the-barrel desktop system.
It's important to note that all of the Dell Dimension 2400 specs are ACTUAL specs, taken just this morning.
For the rumored Apple bottom-feeder CPU, I'm assuming that the hardware specs will be what ThinkSecret claims, that the graphics card will be a GeForce FX5200, and a few other items. I'm also assuming that the software will include Panther, an updated (finally!) version of AppleWorks (just for the heck of it), iLife (minus iDVD), and the other Apple-produced software which normally comes with eMacs/iMacs/iBooks. The major distinction software-wise is that, to keep costs down to a bare minimum, there would be NO third-party software included (ie, no Quicken, WorldBook, or 3rd-party games bundled).
The thing which blew me away was this: The Dell machine--without a monitor--starts at $395. However, this is with a CD-ROM ONLY, and a 90-day warranty only! Adding a CD-RW, DVD, and 1-yr warranty tacks on another $88...except that the standard ground shipping is $99, even without a monitor!! Since $500 is the cut-off, and the system *has* to be shipped one way or another, that means I had to give up the CD-RW and DVD drive and *still* came in $11 over the mark.
I was also surprised to find out the following about the Dell Dimension 2400: --It has a sucky, NON upgradable, integrated graphics card (though you could use a PCI graphics card instead, I suppose) --It maxes out at 512 MB RAM!
In short, if TS is right about the specs and pricing, this could definitely stir things up!
NOTE: These are a bit dated--done back in April and June respectively; I'm sure that Dell's current offerings have changed since then. Still, they give a reasonably fair and detailed comparison of what you get for your money:
Consumer: $800 eMac Combo Drive vs. $800 Dell Dimension 4600
It's a couple months out of date, but should be updated soon, and includes a pretty comprehensive list of specs in given price ranges...
Re:Comments from the chartmaker...
on
Mac Rants
·
· Score: 1
Ghostie--
Fair enough; you're correct, it would be a good thing to be able to swap out more Mac components.
Regarding the Your Mileage May Vary thing--why is it that the more clearly I state these things, the less attention people pay to them? Kinda sad...
Anyway, after the firestorm here and over at TechReport over the last few days, I'm gonna take a breather for a bit.
Comments from the chartmaker...
on
Mac Rants
·
· Score: 1
Howdy all, I'm the guy who created the original "shootout" comparison at AAPLTalk.
Before you start tearing me to pieces (as I'm sure you will), I thought I should clear up a few things.
1. I am not an engineer or scientist, and never claimed to be an expert on the more technical issues. I'm a simple website designer who was curious as to whether the ancient "overpriced Mac" reputation was still valid, and my conclusion is that while there is still some discrepency between a Mac and a MAJOR BRAND NAME PC, it is not NEARLY as much as most people think. I also CLEARLY state at the bottom that this is in NO WAY intended to be a complete comparison of every possible spec.
2. I never once claimed that the systems I put together were, are, or will be the best that can be bought. These were the best systems *I* could find ON that day, ON that site. I clearly state SEVERAL times that you may very well find a better system, and if you can, good for you! I also clearly state that any number of promotions, bundles, rebates may have changed from day to day (especially with Dell; the day I configged the system they had no real promotions going on; over the weekend they added a free CDRW upgrade. Today (Tuesday) I believe they dropped that in favor of...something else).
3. I emphasize MAJOR BRAND NAME above to remind the "built from scratch" crowd that, again, my comparison CLEARLY STATES that I'm including systems COMPLETELY CONFIGURED off of the six listed brands online stores. I agree that you can certainly put together a killer system for far less by putting the components together yourself. This has nothing to do with THIS comparison. You can change your own oil for the price of a few quarts of 10W-40 as well instead of paying Jiffy Lube $35 as well, but most people tend to prefer not to do so.
4. I do want to thank those who have e-mailed THOUGHTFUL, USEFUL information (and error corrections) to me, from both sides of the fence. Sadly, as I expected, 90% of the mail has been venomous, incoherent ramblings. Why on earth is everyone so ANGRY about this stuff? I started these charts as a mildly interesting observational study, not to start a cyber-riot.
5. However, I have also learned a LOT from those who had something useful to contribute. Based on your e-mail and postings, the number one thing I've discovered is that NO ONE likes the Pentium IV, whether it's a Mac, Windows, Linux, or other user. EVERYONE seems to agree that the 1.4 GHz AMD Athlon kicks the snot out of the 1.8 GHz P4, and most likely the 867 MHz G4 as well. The single biggest oversight on my part (evidently) was not including an Athlon system. I will definitely do this next time (assuming I'm not lynched by then).
6. The scoring system used is, as so many of you have pointed out, somewhat arbitrary. If you aren't a gamer or graphic designer, you might not give a crap about the graphics card. If you're a wedding videographer, iMovie & iDVD might carry 10+ points for you. If you have a bunch of older peripherals, the legacy ports are invaluable. If you're a new computer buyer without any, having a dozen different types of ports might confuse you. The point system, while probably needing some refinement, at least gives SOME sort of quantifiable measurement. How does one "measure" ease of use, or pride in ownership?
7. Many people criticize me for using Photoshop as my processor criteria. However, as a few have pointed out, what the hell else am I supposed to use? The Mac-biased MWNY bakeoff had the G4 kicking the snot out of the P4, while the PC-biased TechTV comparison still had them coming out "even". Since my original posting of the chart, a few people have e-mailed me other benchmark test results; I'll check these out and will do my best to incorporate them the next time I do one of these.
8. Regarding the earlier iMac/iBook comparisons--I've already applied the new multi-point scoring to the 733 and 867 G4 shootouts; I'll try to apply it to these two when I get a chance as well. You wouldn't believe how much time I've already put into what was supposed to be a light-hearted "snapshot" look at the current brand-name PC situation.
9. Perhaps I'm being a bit naive here, but it would have been nice if the guy who wrote the original "Rant" chewing out my comparison had sent me a short e-mail note letting me know about it. I'm an individual, not a faceless corporation; I really think it would have been simple politeness to do so. Guess this is a lost art in cyberspace...
Anyway, ultimately, I have to take all this fuss as something of a compliment. Never expected to stir up such a hornets nest over what is, ultimately, a very silly argument, like debating whether a stick shift or automatic is a better car!:))
Slashdot Mirror
Well, let's see here, just for the heck of it I re-checked my configuration and saved the results as a PDF just for you; you can find it here:. pdf
i f
a veat.gif
http://www.systemshootouts.org/images/dell_config
Wow, imagine that, bare bones model, no monitor, piddly 90 day warranty, no free RAM, $395.10.
As for shipping, sorry again:
http://www.systemshootouts.org/images/dell_ship.g
$99 tacked on; total price: $494.10.
Oh, and here's where you made your mistake on shipping--it's only free if the system itself costs more than $599 to begin with:
http://www.systemshootouts.org/images/dell_ship_c
Bzzzzzt!! Sorry, next contestant??
I've got news for you--the dirt-cheapest Dell that you can get with a DVD-RW is the Dimension 3000, without a monitor) for $585 after shipping (they charge $99 even without a monitor--)...and that's without FireWire and with a pathetic 90 DAY warranty. And Dell is already the king of razor-thin margins.
That's pretty much what this would be, actually.
Take an iBook, lop off the LCD, scrape off the keyboard and speakers, and replace the 4200 rpm laptop hard drive with a 7200 rpm full-size one...voila! Identical specs to what they're describing here (even down to the ports/power supply, if you check AppleInsider.com).
Dunno if this is considered spam or flooding, but I posted this link earlier--it compares the *theoretical* specs for this *rumored* bare-bones Mac against Dell's low-end *actual* offering of today:
2 004/1229_dt500.html
http://www.systemshootouts.org/shootouts/desktop/
(Oh, and it's rumored to run $500, not $600 FWIW).
Note that $500 for a Dell system gets you:
--crappy-ass integrated graphics w/shared memory
--a 512 MB RAM limit (!)
--no CD-RW
--no DVD-ROM
Now, of course there's no way of knowing whether this rumored "miniMac" is real--at $500--or not, but even if it isn't, the Dell configged at the link above is pretty pathetic, no?
OK, I know this is *incredibly* premature and *highly* speculative, but I was curious about just how this theoretical new "headless eMac" unit might stack up against one of Dell's bottom-of-the-barrel desktop system.
2 004/1229_dt500.html
http://www.systemshootouts.org/shootouts/desktop/
It's important to note that all of the Dell Dimension 2400 specs are ACTUAL specs, taken just this morning.
For the rumored Apple bottom-feeder CPU, I'm assuming that the hardware specs will be what ThinkSecret claims, that the graphics card will be a GeForce FX5200, and a few other items. I'm also assuming that the software will include Panther, an updated (finally!) version of AppleWorks (just for the heck of it), iLife (minus iDVD), and the other Apple-produced software which normally comes with eMacs/iMacs/iBooks. The major distinction software-wise is that, to keep costs down to a bare minimum, there would be NO third-party software included (ie, no Quicken, WorldBook, or 3rd-party games bundled).
The thing which blew me away was this: The Dell machine--without a monitor--starts at $395. However, this is with a CD-ROM ONLY, and a 90-day warranty only! Adding a CD-RW, DVD, and 1-yr warranty tacks on another $88...except that the standard ground shipping is $99, even without a monitor!! Since $500 is the cut-off, and the system *has* to be shipped one way or another, that means I had to give up the CD-RW and DVD drive and *still* came in $11 over the mark.
I was also surprised to find out the following about the Dell Dimension 2400:
--It has a sucky, NON upgradable, integrated graphics card (though you could use a PCI graphics card instead, I suppose)
--It maxes out at 512 MB RAM!
In short, if TS is right about the specs and pricing, this could definitely stir things up!
NOTE: These are a bit dated--done back in April and June respectively; I'm sure that Dell's current offerings have changed since then. Still, they give a reasonably fair and detailed comparison of what you get for your money:
p /2 004/0413_dt0800.html
l /2 004/0616_edu_dt0650.html
Consumer: $800 eMac Combo Drive vs. $800 Dell Dimension 4600
http://www.systemshootouts.org/shootouts/deskto
Educational: $650 eMac CD-ROM vs. $650 Dell Dimension 4600
http://www.systemshootouts.org/shootouts/specia
Hmmm...forgot to make the link live...
http://www.aapltalk.com/shootouts/
Sorry!
Try the AAPLTalk System Shootouts:
http://www.aapltalk.com/shootouts
It's a couple months out of date, but should be updated soon, and includes a pretty comprehensive list of specs in given price ranges...
Ghostie-- Fair enough; you're correct, it would be a good thing to be able to swap out more Mac components. Regarding the Your Mileage May Vary thing--why is it that the more clearly I state these things, the less attention people pay to them? Kinda sad... Anyway, after the firestorm here and over at TechReport over the last few days, I'm gonna take a breather for a bit.
Howdy all, I'm the guy who created the original "shootout" comparison at AAPLTalk.
:))
Before you start tearing me to pieces (as I'm sure you will), I thought I should clear up a few things.
1. I am not an engineer or scientist, and never claimed to be an expert on the more technical issues. I'm a simple website designer who was curious as to whether the ancient "overpriced Mac" reputation was still valid, and my conclusion is that while there is still some discrepency between a Mac and a MAJOR BRAND NAME PC, it is not NEARLY as much as most people think. I also CLEARLY state at the bottom that this is in NO WAY intended to be a complete comparison of every possible spec.
2. I never once claimed that the systems I put together were, are, or will be the best that can be bought. These were the best systems *I* could find ON that day, ON that site. I clearly state SEVERAL times that you may very well find a better system, and if you can, good for you! I also clearly state that any number of promotions, bundles, rebates may have changed from day to day (especially with Dell; the day I configged the system they had no real promotions going on; over the weekend they added a free CDRW upgrade. Today (Tuesday) I believe they dropped that in favor of...something else).
3. I emphasize MAJOR BRAND NAME above to remind the "built from scratch" crowd that, again, my comparison CLEARLY STATES that I'm including systems COMPLETELY CONFIGURED off of the six listed brands online stores. I agree that you can certainly put together a killer system for far less by putting the components together yourself. This has nothing to do with THIS comparison. You can change your own oil for the price of a few quarts of 10W-40 as well instead of paying Jiffy Lube $35 as well, but most people tend to prefer not to do so.
4. I do want to thank those who have e-mailed THOUGHTFUL, USEFUL information (and error corrections) to me, from both sides of the fence. Sadly, as I expected, 90% of the mail has been venomous, incoherent ramblings. Why on earth is everyone so ANGRY about this stuff? I started these charts as a mildly interesting observational study, not to start a cyber-riot.
5. However, I have also learned a LOT from those who had something useful to contribute. Based on your e-mail and postings, the number one thing I've discovered is that NO ONE likes the Pentium IV, whether it's a Mac, Windows, Linux, or other user. EVERYONE seems to agree that the 1.4 GHz AMD Athlon kicks the snot out of the 1.8 GHz P4, and most likely the 867 MHz G4 as well. The single biggest oversight on my part (evidently) was not including an Athlon system. I will definitely do this next time (assuming I'm not lynched by then).
6. The scoring system used is, as so many of you have pointed out, somewhat arbitrary. If you aren't a gamer or graphic designer, you might not give a crap about the graphics card. If you're a wedding videographer, iMovie & iDVD might carry 10+ points for you. If you have a bunch of older peripherals, the legacy ports are invaluable. If you're a new computer buyer without any, having a dozen different types of ports might confuse you. The point system, while probably needing some refinement, at least gives SOME sort of quantifiable measurement. How does one "measure" ease of use, or pride in ownership?
7. Many people criticize me for using Photoshop as my processor criteria. However, as a few have pointed out, what the hell else am I supposed to use? The Mac-biased MWNY bakeoff had the G4 kicking the snot out of the P4, while the PC-biased TechTV comparison still had them coming out "even". Since my original posting of the chart, a few people have e-mailed me other benchmark test results; I'll check these out and will do my best to incorporate them the next time I do one of these.
8. Regarding the earlier iMac/iBook comparisons--I've already applied the new multi-point scoring to the 733 and 867 G4 shootouts; I'll try to apply it to these two when I get a chance as well. You wouldn't believe how much time I've already put into what was supposed to be a light-hearted "snapshot" look at the current brand-name PC situation.
9. Perhaps I'm being a bit naive here, but it would have been nice if the guy who wrote the original "Rant" chewing out my comparison had sent me a short e-mail note letting me know about it. I'm an individual, not a faceless corporation; I really think it would have been simple politeness to do so. Guess this is a lost art in cyberspace...
Anyway, ultimately, I have to take all this fuss as something of a compliment. Never expected to stir up such a hornets nest over what is, ultimately, a very silly argument, like debating whether a stick shift or automatic is a better car!
Thanks for your time, Charles Gaba aka BlueDjinn