Actually, as I mentioned he needs Office Professional. I can go in to detail if you want. It has to do with SQL.
"Next I imagine you're going to tell me that Office is bloated and nobody needs all that functionality anyway, and really dig this argument into a bizarre hole"
I have not taken any cheap shots at Microsoft Office or Microsoft Windows. Quite the opposite, I have implied that they are the defacto products, but I have also said that Linux and Open Office are "Good Enough" for what most people need, and that for a majority of users the only issue is time taken to acomplish the same task.
The only cheap shot that I might have taken is to imply that Microsoft has hidden upgrade charges that will bite you over time. Do you honestly believe that they don't do this?
As far as trying to win on merits alone, and being honest. I am. Yes you "can" get student pricing, but as soon as you leave school the product is legally dead, and it also is limited to that student. So if his family wants to use the software on a general computer they are not legally allowed to do so. You mention all these "discounts and rebates", and I showed you Walmarts priceing. They are not known for selling stuff at list:-) Heck I couldn't even find the full version of XP pro out there, but the cost was still right at $700.
My main point is that if you have free software that works, but may be more cumbersome, it is impossible for proprietary non-free software to win.
"No, you're argument is mostly fabricated to make you feel fluffy about Linux."
Wow, cheap shot; I have tried to compare true Microsoft cost to free software cost. That is Office Professional bought, not upgraded, and with no strings attached, and Windows XP bought, not upgraded and also NO strings attached. Nowhere did I fabricate anything.
"At the end of the day all that really matters is whether or not you were able to get your work done. Linux can't compete on cost when the issue is does it work."
Yes, for most people it does, and it is free. It is very hard to compete with free especially when your time is worth almost nothing.
"I'm sorry, but I outgrew this advocacy bullshit about 10 years ago. What's the point if you can't get your work done?"
You made my point for me. I say that you can get your work done for FREE. One cost and the other is FREE. We could sit here all day and argue over cost, but one is FREE and the other cost. Both will allow most people to get their jobs/work done.
He wants Office Pro not just Office. So it is not $120.
Games could be an issue and is a good point. It doesn't apply to him though, he is mostly a console gamer. Also notice that he could play a lot of games on his new PS2 or GameCube or GameBoy.
" there are ways to obtain Microsoft products that don't involve paying full list price."
I hope you don't mean pirate. Yes you can try and find a good deal, but also remember that once you buy it you will continue to pay for it over the years. In some cases you may be FORCED to upgrade.
At the end of the day free is well... free. Microsoft or any software vendor for that matter, can compete with free on cost. Now they can compete on value. Perhaps they can add some value that OpenOffice can't, and perhaps Windows can do something Linux can't; or do it more easily, but it will be hard to quantify a time savings of a 13 year old boy. If it takes him two days to figure out how do do something like get DoomIII running, then how many $$$ is that time worth. When I was 13 is was $0.00. So it takes him 10 min longer to do a mail merge... so what.
It's funny you mention Walmart... They sell Office XP Professional for $526.00... Not far off that $600 price I mentioned. Windows XP home edition cost $99.96. I can't find the full version (not an upgrade or OEM version on their site, but the professional UPGRADE version is $198.96.) Again I want to mention that he did NOT want the standard edition of Office.
Someone else mentioned that OpenOffice runs on Windows. That is also a valid point. But you still need to factor in the continual cost of doing business with Windows, and my argument is mostly on Microsoft as a whole.
Lastly, I specifically brought up buying better hardware to "componsate" for some of Linux's weakness with games. He could then hand pick hardware that rocks for Linux gameing.
Ahh but this person WANTS to run the full Office suite and didn't own it yet.
Also remember that I didn't go in to upgrade cost over time. If that is factored in then the cost goes up even more.
Dell, and any vendor will NEVER push Linux if it means that Microsoft will be there to jack with them as they have in the past. For that reason alone Dell won't offer Linux cheaper than Windows.
The only vendor that has a shot of this would be IBM, and I am SURE that they will end up paying more for Windows than Dell, HP, Gateway etc.
It depends if you are talking about stalkers or not. I would be willing that a fair number of people have had their phone lines cut.
Although, I do agree it is nice to have both. I would say that if I noticed my power AND phone went out AND I knew that I had some jaded lover who had a restraining order against them, I would be glad to know three things 1. My land line was cut. 2. My H&K was loaded good bullets. 3. My cell phone worked to call the cops to haul their dead body away.
If Windows XP was NOT bundled with their computer OR they had to pay extra for it, then I believe that a small portion of the "mass" would switch. The same small "mass" of people who drive an extra 10 miles to Wallmart to save 10 cents on their soft drinks.
I was just having a discussion with a teen age relative of mine who loves Microsoft because one of his relatives works there. He has NO intention of ever using anyting but Microsoft. So I broke it down this way.
He will spend $600 for Office, $100-$300 for Windows XP. So lets go low and say that is $700. I won't go in to continual upgrade cost, but it should be mentioned. So he will spend $700 or more than someone who runs Linux and Open Office. Both would do the job for what he needs. So if he went with Linux he could.... 1. Buy a new PS2 and some games AND 2. Buy a better video card AND 3. Buy a better hard drive AND 4. Buy a faster processor AND 5. Buy a new GameBoy with Games.
So I asked him... Wouldn't you like to have all that stuff? I do with the money I saved by not running Microsoft Office and XP at home. (I don't own a gameboy but he got the idea).
Cost does matter with Linux a lot for the masses. There needs to be a distro out there that is free or near free. There is a huge Linux market for the PC users who shop at Wallmart...
First let me say I was a RedHat fan, but I don't think Fedora is this guys solution.
Yes he might get updates with up2date, but his product will NOT be supported in any way from RedHat. The purpose of Fedora appears to be to get the latest "somewhat stable" software to the masses and let them bang on it to find bugs. Then RedHat will take the best of breed of that software and incorporate it in to ES.
My advice to the guy is to buy RedHat ES for $300 and plan on paying RedHat $300 a year for the rest of that servers life. He could do that or switch to a different distro.
I am currently on RedHat 7.1. It is fully supported by Oracle for 9.0.1 of their database.
My production machines will be dual Opterton systems. Check out RedHat's priceing for opteron and you will see that I was correct. It is $1,500.00 not $800.
Oracle will not support RedHat 8 or 9 or Fedora for all future versions of Oracle. So if you want to put up a development linux box that somewhat simulates production you will have to fork over $1,500 a YEAR to RedHat, or at least $300 per year (for x86 version without phone support).
My overall grip is that they should release a version of their enterprise product that is free, but with no support or upgrades. Then you should have to pay separately for the up2date service, and also pay separately for support. As I have told RedHat many times now they could charge me $500 a call and I would go for that over their current $300 year. Heck I would even pay $120/year for up2date (I currently pay $60 per ACTIVE account now).
As it is, I am now looking at other distros. Now when I suggest Linux to other network people I know, who do you think I will say to avoid?
My hope in all this is that RedHat is young and small and will change this pricing quickly.
Ok, lets say you run Oracle. Oracle says we will only support RedHats Enterprise version of software. I say "It's all Linux just tell me what to load" They say, buy the Enterprise version. I have no problem doing that for a production machine, but I have a HUGE problem doing it for our development boxes. Oracle doesn't change for our development boxes, so why does RedHat?
I understand RedHat wanting to make money, but to make the argument that I am just buying support is ridiculous. If that is the case then let me buy support packs (like Novell or Microsoft), and then GIVE me the software. Or offer me the software with NO support! Ahhh but they won't do that because they ARE selling the software.
Oh and I am hurt two times because I chose to buy an Opteron processor. Wow, now I get the honor of paying RedHat $1,500-$2,500 a YEAR for EVERY YEAR! WTF!? Insane. I was a RedHat fan, but now I will go to someone else.
To be honest I am at a point to where I will just run Oracle on an unsupported platform. Currently I am looking at any reasonable distro that is supported by Oracle.
To add to it. If you needed support on some critical servers you could actually pay them $1k a year for support on that box. So once you convinced an organization to go with RedHat/Linux you could purchase support. This is no longer true.
I currently have two new dual Opteron systems. One is a production class box and the other is a development box. The boxes cost us around $5,000. Does RedHat actually expect me to pay $1,500 a YEAR for each of these boxes? Heck in three years the software will cost me almost as much as the hardware.
Here is what is bad. You want to go in to a business and replace some of their NT and or NetWare boxes with linux. You choose RedHat. Well you better cough up some cash or hope that what works with Fedora will work with their Enterprise Server.
Well I have spend around 5 grand with them and was on the verge of spending another 3 grand per year for..... well I guess forever.... Not anymore. I don't know is SUSE is the answer, but that is the great thing about Linux, I have a choice.:-)
Also, I realize that 5 grand isn't much, but the fact is, that Linux is just growing in our area, and they (Redhat) could have replaced a ton of NT 4.x servers out there. I guess I will be looking at Gentoo soon:-)
I and most people around here don't blast Redhat for trying to make money. I blast them for two main points. 1. They had a price model that sold you the core NOS. Then for more money you could get more "features" and software. You also got more support with the more you paid. They changed all that when they went with the Enterprise Model. Now they have TWO different versions of their product. 2. They set the lifespan of their products to an unreasonably short amount of time. People that were on RedHat 8 will be EOL at the end of this year. The product wasn't released that long ago.
So for people like me that want to run Oracle, they went from an OS that cost $30, and I could load it on as many machines as I wanted, then I paid $60/year for their auto-update(up2date) web stuff, then I paid $1,000.00/year for technical support of my main servers. (24/7 support).
Now I pay $1,500 per box for the 9-9 support, and $2,500 for 24/7 support.
The horrible issue (and why I will migrate off of Redhat) is that they won't cut you any break for test and development servers.
This could all be taken care of if they would just relase a version of the enterprise server that has no support, then charge $60/year for their up2date stuff.
What would also help is to offer a per incedent support pack (like Microsoft and Novell). I seems insane to me that RedHat Linux now cost me more than either Novell or Microsoft for file and print. (For our company). I am a Linux fan, and will continue to use it, but for a TON of people out there, they would just buy Microsoft.
Microsoft must make money to pay for marketing, sales, developers, accountants, lawyers and support. This cost isn't insignificant. Free software is... well free. Now if you consider that you need internal I.T. people for either solution how can Microsoft or any software maker compete.
Yes I know that a vendor can "add value" by making things easier, thus needing fewer I.T. people but aren't we talking about governement workers here. In the U.S. most of these people are the most basic of users. One or two tasks is all they do. Heck most of our people here use dumb terminals.
Lastly I would argue that even if Microsoft buys this ONE government off, it cost them significant time and resources, that only hurts them in the long run. This appears to give government agencies a choice. So Microsoft looses it Monopoly. That forces them to have to lower their prices. Either way they loose. So in the long run they have less dollars to combat FREE software. This makes it harder and harder to buy off other people.
So in short I guess I am saying. It is hard to compete with free.
Anyone selling expensive browsers now days? Anyone selling expensive web servers now days?
Actually, as I mentioned. I sent the design to them, as probably a few other people did, and they ended up using one very similar to what I came up with. I did not say "They were clueless and I saved the company with my design". The point that I was trying to make was that I had the ability to design a tree for a large organization that was different than what they were originally recommending, and it was a solid design. So good in fact that they ended up using one like it for their documentation. Now was it from what I sent to them? Was it from their consulting division that discovered? Was it from their own internal development staff? Who knows. That wasn't my point.
You are correct in that I didn't articulate that well. As I said in my previous post, to the person who called me an idiot in a nice way; I have worked with people way smarter than me and others way dumber than myself. The listed was just some data points of what I have done.
Because Novell support had me do it. As a matter of fact we had to get down to ONE FREAKING server with a read/write replica on it. Then pray that we could get it back. They were on the verge of dialing in to fix NDS with tools that we don't have. This was also with Novell on site! The core problem is that NDS could have a multitude of problems and appear to be running well. Then you see one server that still holds a reference to something... I got so use to running DsRepair (again per Novell) that I could see the screens in my sleep.
Ahh an administrative education problem.... nice way of saying "you don't know what the hell you are doing". That may or may not be true. I consider myself smarter than some and dumber than others. I did pass their 7 CNE test and I am a CNE (not that that means much, but just a point of reference). I was also one of the people who sent Novell designs how to layout a tree design for a large company. Novell's initial design didn't work well, and they ended up publishing a standard that is like mine. (I am sure that other people were saying the same thing to them, about tree design, so again this doesn't prove too much. Not that any of this means I am smart or dumb, just data points. I still remember arguing with them that we needed the ability to have help desk people reset passwords without being an admin of context (and possibly admin of a server, if there was one in that context).
Again, I have spent many many many weekends and nights repairing NDS issues. When it works, it works well, when things go wrong, it can suck. It has come a LONG way since 4.0 and 4.1 however the NetWare kernel hasn't. This was the jist of the original users post and he is correct.
I guess I will turn the question around. Do you honestly believe that Novell will continue to develop the NetWare kernel for the next 5 years? If Novell dumped the NetWare kernel but provided the same services on top of Linux would you switch off of NetWare to Windows or another Linux? I bet that the Novell faithful would move in a hartbeat to a Linux provided by Novell.
Lastly, and perhaps my biggest gripe. The Novell Client for Windows 95-XP!!! I know that you don't need it now, but they should have jumped on the SAMBA bandwagon out of the gate. They had a version that kinda worked with NetWare 4.x made by the consulting group (awesome group of people), but they never developed it. That freaking client made it impossible to put in a NetWare box in a Windows NT environment and have the two work well together. Yes I know about the GateWay product from Microsoft, but that acted as one user account and was unacceptable. So people in a "pure NT" environment couldn't access NetWare volumes. Oh yeah, I almost forgot... the client SUCKED! It crashed a ton, it tried to replace the NDIS ethernet drivers with their own, and was generally horrible....
All this makes me sound like some Novell hater. I assure you that I am not. I am a fan of Novell, and hope that they turn it around, but being a fan of Novell since the 2.x days, it is kinda like being a Cubs fan; you just become kinda jaded over time.
If Novell partnered with SUSE and relased a version of SUSE with Groupwise, NDS, Zenworks and other stuff, while LAYERING their stuff on SUSE (not changing the core product), I would buy it. Oh yeah, one more thing. Get the licencing right! Charge per processor.
He isn't clueless. Yes NDS is "probably" better than InActiveDirectory, but be careful about saying it won't scale well. I know of a company with around 50k workstations on it and it runs ok for them.
I could go in to a huge list of issues with NDS. We were one of the first large scale companies to go with it, and I have spent many a night with Novell on the phone, and restoring. The biggest pain I had with Novell was the fact that when you deleted a server with a read/write replica, I would need to sacrafice a goat to Novell just to get the tree back in order. Most of the times I would end up hacking NDS (not supported, but instructed by Novell support) just to actually tell it that things are gone.
Rome fell, but not in a day. My belief is that because Linux can be free it will take down Microsoft. That may or may not happen, but Microsoft will fall. Now I am not saying they won't be a player like IBM, but they will not be the 800lb gorilla they are today.
The gas milage looks great, and I also have a long commute, but the size of the car leaves a little to be desired. I have heard that Honda is going to produce an Accord that is a hybrid this year and hope to own one. I have seen the civic and would consider one, but I really like the size of the Accord more.
From what consumer reports and others say though, you are better off buying a normal civic because the price difference is over 4 grand, and 4 grand will buy a lot of gas. I come to the conclusion that I would rather give my 4 grand to Japan rather than the middle east.
You were in an accident in a Prius and lived to tell about it. How did the other go-cart come out?:-)
On a more serious note. I hope and pray that the U.S. finds and implements another energy source, and gets off it's dependance of oil in the middle east. It will be hard to fund terrorism without money...
You were correct. I ment the P900. Thank you very much!!! I checked out AT&T's page and it looks like I would have an excellent selection of phones to work with. They currently support the P800, so I would assume that they would support the P900 when it comes out.
To me the Sony is the way to go. It looks like a good phone with some PDA features that I would probably use. I currently have an Ipaq 3970, that I hate and can't wait to replace with a phone like the Sony 900. Now the other product, looks like some PDA that they fit a phone around. It will still have all the same issues that the IPAQ has. Crappy OS, bugs and a battery hog. All that with the huge size to boot. It may be for some people, but for people like me that NEED a good phone and want SOME PDA functionality in it, the Sony is the way to go.
Now I just have to see if they have telnet and ssh for the Sony AND if anyone in the U.S. besides T-Mobile will support it. Man T-Mobile sucks also... I hope that Sony will work with Verizion, ATT&T or ANYONE but T-Mobile with their phone.
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Actually, as I mentioned he needs Office Professional. I can go in to detail if you want. It has to do with SQL.
:-) Heck I couldn't even find the full version of XP pro out there, but the cost was still right at $700.
"Next I imagine you're going to tell me that Office is bloated and nobody needs all that functionality anyway, and really dig this argument into a bizarre hole"
I have not taken any cheap shots at Microsoft Office or Microsoft Windows. Quite the opposite, I have implied that they are the defacto products, but I have also said that Linux and Open Office are "Good Enough" for what most people need, and that for a majority of users the only issue is time taken to acomplish the same task.
The only cheap shot that I might have taken is to imply that Microsoft has hidden upgrade charges that will bite you over time. Do you honestly believe that they don't do this?
As far as trying to win on merits alone, and being honest. I am. Yes you "can" get student pricing, but as soon as you leave school the product is legally dead, and it also is limited to that student. So if his family wants to use the software on a general computer they are not legally allowed to do so. You mention all these "discounts and rebates", and I showed you Walmarts priceing. They are not known for selling stuff at list
My main point is that if you have free software that works, but may be more cumbersome, it is impossible for proprietary non-free software to win.
"No, you're argument is mostly fabricated to make you feel fluffy about Linux."
Wow, cheap shot; I have tried to compare true Microsoft cost to free software cost. That is Office Professional bought, not upgraded, and with no strings attached, and Windows XP bought, not upgraded and also NO strings attached. Nowhere did I fabricate anything.
"At the end of the day all that really matters is whether or not you were able to get your work done. Linux can't compete on cost when the issue is does it work."
Yes, for most people it does, and it is free. It is very hard to compete with free especially when your time is worth almost nothing.
"I'm sorry, but I outgrew this advocacy bullshit about 10 years ago. What's the point if you can't get your work done?"
You made my point for me. I say that you can get your work done for FREE. One cost and the other is FREE. We could sit here all day and argue over cost, but one is FREE and the other cost.
Both will allow most people to get their jobs/work done.
He wants Office Pro not just Office. So it is not $120.
Games could be an issue and is a good point. It doesn't apply to him though, he is mostly a console gamer. Also notice that he could play a lot of games on his new PS2 or GameCube or GameBoy.
" there are ways to obtain Microsoft products that don't involve paying full list price."
I hope you don't mean pirate. Yes you can try and find a good deal, but also remember that once you buy it you will continue to pay for it over the years. In some cases you may be FORCED to upgrade.
At the end of the day free is well... free. Microsoft or any software vendor for that matter, can compete with free on cost. Now they can compete on value. Perhaps they can add some value that OpenOffice can't, and perhaps Windows can do something Linux can't; or do it more easily, but it will be hard to quantify a time savings of a 13 year old boy. If it takes him two days to figure out how do do something like get DoomIII running, then how many $$$ is that time worth. When I was 13 is was $0.00. So it takes him 10 min longer to do a mail merge... so what.
It's funny you mention Walmart... They sell Office XP Professional for $526.00... Not far off that $600 price I mentioned. Windows XP home edition cost $99.96. I can't find the full version (not an upgrade or OEM version on their site, but the professional UPGRADE version is $198.96.) Again I want to mention that he did NOT want the standard edition of Office.
Someone else mentioned that OpenOffice runs on Windows. That is also a valid point. But you still need to factor in the continual cost of doing business with Windows, and my argument is mostly on Microsoft as a whole.
Lastly, I specifically brought up buying better hardware to "componsate" for some of Linux's weakness with games. He could then hand pick hardware that rocks for Linux gameing.
Ahh but this person WANTS to run the full Office suite and didn't own it yet.
Also remember that I didn't go in to upgrade cost over time. If that is factored in then the cost goes up even more.
Dell, and any vendor will NEVER push Linux if it means that Microsoft will be there to jack with them as they have in the past. For that reason alone Dell won't offer Linux cheaper than Windows.
The only vendor that has a shot of this would be IBM, and I am SURE that they will end up paying more for Windows than Dell, HP, Gateway etc.
It depends if you are talking about stalkers or not. I would be willing that a fair number of people have had their phone lines cut.
Although, I do agree it is nice to have both. I would say that if I noticed my power AND phone went out AND I knew that I had some jaded lover who had a restraining order against them, I would be glad to know three things
1. My land line was cut.
2. My H&K was loaded good bullets.
3. My cell phone worked to call the cops to haul their dead body away.
It's funny you mention cost and the "mass users".
If Windows XP was NOT bundled with their computer OR they had to pay extra for it, then I believe that a small portion of the "mass" would switch. The same small "mass" of people who drive an extra 10 miles to Wallmart to save 10 cents on their soft drinks.
I was just having a discussion with a teen age relative of mine who loves Microsoft because one of his relatives works there. He has NO intention of ever using anyting but Microsoft. So I broke it down this way.
He will spend $600 for Office, $100-$300 for Windows XP. So lets go low and say that is $700. I won't go in to continual upgrade cost, but it should be mentioned. So he will spend $700 or more than someone who runs Linux and Open Office. Both would do the job for what he needs. So if he went with Linux he could....
1. Buy a new PS2 and some games AND
2. Buy a better video card AND
3. Buy a better hard drive AND
4. Buy a faster processor AND
5. Buy a new GameBoy with Games.
So I asked him... Wouldn't you like to have all that stuff? I do with the money I saved by not running Microsoft Office and XP at home. (I don't own a gameboy but he got the idea).
Cost does matter with Linux a lot for the masses. There needs to be a distro out there that is free or near free. There is a huge Linux market for the PC users who shop at Wallmart...
First let me say I was a RedHat fan, but I don't think Fedora is this guys solution.
Yes he might get updates with up2date, but his product will NOT be supported in any way from RedHat. The purpose of Fedora appears to be to get the latest "somewhat stable" software to the masses and let them bang on it to find bugs. Then RedHat will take the best of breed of that software and incorporate it in to ES.
My advice to the guy is to buy RedHat ES for $300 and plan on paying RedHat $300 a year for the rest of that servers life. He could do that or switch to a different distro.
Wow I was wrong. RedHat actually charges $2,000 a year for Opteron, not $1,500. Or $3,000 if you want 24X7 support.
Heck for $3,000 a year that would help buy a nice Sun box. Or even buy a couple of Windows boxes.
I am currently on RedHat 7.1. It is fully supported by Oracle for 9.0.1 of their database.
My production machines will be dual Opterton systems. Check out RedHat's priceing for opteron and you will see that I was correct. It is $1,500.00 not $800.
Oracle will not support RedHat 8 or 9 or Fedora for all future versions of Oracle. So if you want to put up a development linux box that somewhat simulates production you will have to fork over $1,500 a YEAR to RedHat, or at least $300 per year (for x86 version without phone support).
My overall grip is that they should release a version of their enterprise product that is free, but with no support or upgrades. Then you should have to pay separately for the up2date service, and also pay separately for support. As I have told RedHat many times now they could charge me $500 a call and I would go for that over their current $300 year. Heck I would even pay $120/year for up2date (I currently pay $60 per ACTIVE account now).
As it is, I am now looking at other distros. Now when I suggest Linux to other network people I know, who do you think I will say to avoid?
My hope in all this is that RedHat is young and small and will change this pricing quickly.
Ok, lets say you run Oracle. Oracle says we will only support RedHats Enterprise version of software. I say "It's all Linux just tell me what to load" They say, buy the Enterprise version. I have no problem doing that for a production machine, but I have a HUGE problem doing it for our development boxes. Oracle doesn't change for our development boxes, so why does RedHat?
I understand RedHat wanting to make money, but to make the argument that I am just buying support is ridiculous. If that is the case then let me buy support packs (like Novell or Microsoft), and then GIVE me the software. Or offer me the software with NO support! Ahhh but they won't do that because they ARE selling the software.
Oh and I am hurt two times because I chose to buy an Opteron processor. Wow, now I get the honor of paying RedHat $1,500-$2,500 a YEAR for EVERY YEAR! WTF!? Insane. I was a RedHat fan, but now I will go to someone else.
To be honest I am at a point to where I will just run Oracle on an unsupported platform. Currently I am looking at any reasonable distro that is supported by Oracle.
This was my point exactly.
To add to it. If you needed support on some critical servers you could actually pay them $1k a year for support on that box. So once you convinced an organization to go with RedHat/Linux you could purchase support. This is no longer true.
I currently have two new dual Opteron systems. One is a production class box and the other is a development box. The boxes cost us around $5,000. Does RedHat actually expect me to pay $1,500 a YEAR for each of these boxes? Heck in three years the software will cost me almost as much as the hardware.
Here is what is bad. You want to go in to a business and replace some of their NT and or NetWare boxes with linux. You choose RedHat. Well you better cough up some cash or hope that what works with Fedora will work with their Enterprise Server.
Well I have spend around 5 grand with them and was on the verge of spending another 3 grand per year for ..... well I guess forever.... :-)
:-)
Not anymore. I don't know is SUSE is the answer, but that is the great thing about Linux, I have a choice.
Also, I realize that 5 grand isn't much, but the fact is, that Linux is just growing in our area, and they (Redhat) could have replaced a ton of NT 4.x servers out there. I guess I will be looking at Gentoo soon
I and most people around here don't blast Redhat for trying to make money. I blast them for two main points.
1. They had a price model that sold you the core NOS. Then for more money you could get more "features" and software. You also got more support with the more you paid. They changed all that when they went with the Enterprise Model. Now they have TWO different versions of their product.
2. They set the lifespan of their products to an unreasonably short amount of time. People that were on RedHat 8 will be EOL at the end of this year. The product wasn't released that long ago.
So for people like me that want to run Oracle, they went from an OS that cost $30, and I could load it on as many machines as I wanted, then I paid $60/year for their auto-update(up2date) web stuff, then I paid $1,000.00/year for technical support of my main servers. (24/7 support).
Now I pay $1,500 per box for the 9-9 support, and $2,500 for 24/7 support.
The horrible issue (and why I will migrate off of Redhat) is that they won't cut you any break for test and development servers.
This could all be taken care of if they would just relase a version of the enterprise server that has no support, then charge $60/year for their up2date stuff.
What would also help is to offer a per incedent support pack (like Microsoft and Novell). I seems insane to me that RedHat Linux now cost me more than either Novell or Microsoft for file and print. (For our company). I am a Linux fan, and will continue to use it, but for a TON of people out there, they would just buy Microsoft.
I am somewhat confused about your point.
In FREE software nobody gets paid.
Now companies can pop up around that free software and offer stuff (RedHat), but the codebase is still free. An example would be Apache.
Ok, here is my beef.
Microsoft must make money to pay for marketing, sales, developers, accountants, lawyers and support. This cost isn't insignificant. Free software is... well free. Now if you consider that you need internal I.T. people for either solution how can Microsoft or any software maker compete.
Yes I know that a vendor can "add value" by making things easier, thus needing fewer I.T. people but aren't we talking about governement workers here. In the U.S. most of these people are the most basic of users. One or two tasks is all they do. Heck most of our people here use dumb terminals.
Lastly I would argue that even if Microsoft buys this ONE government off, it cost them significant time and resources, that only hurts them in the long run. This appears to give government agencies a choice. So Microsoft looses it Monopoly. That forces them to have to lower their prices. Either way they loose. So in the long run they have less dollars to combat FREE software. This makes it harder and harder to buy off other people.
So in short I guess I am saying. It is hard to compete with free.
Anyone selling expensive browsers now days?
Anyone selling expensive web servers now days?
Soon...
Anyone selling expensive office suites?
Anyone selling expensive NOSes?
Possibly later...
Anyone selling expensive databases?
Actually, as I mentioned. I sent the design to them, as probably a few other people did, and they ended up using one very similar to what I came up with. I did not say "They were clueless and I saved the company with my design". The point that I was trying to make was that I had the ability to design a tree for a large organization that was different than what they were originally recommending, and it was a solid design. So good in fact that they ended up using one like it for their documentation. Now was it from what I sent to them? Was it from their consulting division that discovered? Was it from their own internal development staff? Who knows. That wasn't my point.
You are correct in that I didn't articulate that well. As I said in my previous post, to the person who called me an idiot in a nice way; I have worked with people way smarter than me and others way dumber than myself. The listed was just some data points of what I have done.
Because Novell support had me do it. As a matter of fact we had to get down to ONE FREAKING server with a read/write replica on it. Then pray that we could get it back. They were on the verge of dialing in to fix NDS with tools that we don't have. This was also with Novell on site! The core problem is that NDS could have a multitude of problems and appear to be running well. Then you see one server that still holds a reference to something... I got so use to running DsRepair (again per Novell) that I could see the screens in my sleep.
Ahh an administrative education problem.... nice way of saying "you don't know what the hell you are doing". That may or may not be true. I consider myself smarter than some and dumber than others. I did pass their 7 CNE test and I am a CNE (not that that means much, but just a point of reference). I was also one of the people who sent Novell designs how to layout a tree design for a large company. Novell's initial design didn't work well, and they ended up publishing a standard that is like mine. (I am sure that other people were saying the same thing to them, about tree design, so again this doesn't prove too much. Not that any of this means I am smart or dumb, just data points. I still remember arguing with them that we needed the ability to have help desk people reset passwords without being an admin of context (and possibly admin of a server, if there was one in that context).
Again, I have spent many many many weekends and nights repairing NDS issues. When it works, it works well, when things go wrong, it can suck. It has come a LONG way since 4.0 and 4.1 however the NetWare kernel hasn't. This was the jist of the original users post and he is correct.
I guess I will turn the question around. Do you honestly believe that Novell will continue to develop the NetWare kernel for the next 5 years? If Novell dumped the NetWare kernel but provided the same services on top of Linux would you switch off of NetWare to Windows or another Linux? I bet that the Novell faithful would move in a hartbeat to a Linux provided by Novell.
Lastly, and perhaps my biggest gripe. The Novell Client for Windows 95-XP!!! I know that you don't need it now, but they should have jumped on the SAMBA bandwagon out of the gate. They had a version that kinda worked with NetWare 4.x made by the consulting group (awesome group of people), but they never developed it. That freaking client made it impossible to put in a NetWare box in a Windows NT environment and have the two work well together. Yes I know about the GateWay product from Microsoft, but that acted as one user account and was unacceptable. So people in a "pure NT" environment couldn't access NetWare volumes. Oh yeah, I almost forgot... the client SUCKED! It crashed a ton, it tried to replace the NDIS ethernet drivers with their own, and was generally horrible....
All this makes me sound like some Novell hater. I assure you that I am not. I am a fan of Novell, and hope that they turn it around, but being a fan of Novell since the 2.x days, it is kinda like being a Cubs fan; you just become kinda jaded over time.
If Novell partnered with SUSE and relased a version of SUSE with Groupwise, NDS, Zenworks and other stuff, while LAYERING their stuff on SUSE (not changing the core product), I would buy it. Oh yeah, one more thing. Get the licencing right! Charge per processor.
He isn't clueless. Yes NDS is "probably" better than InActiveDirectory, but be careful about saying it won't scale well. I know of a company with around 50k workstations on it and it runs ok for them.
I could go in to a huge list of issues with NDS. We were one of the first large scale companies to go with it, and I have spent many a night with Novell on the phone, and restoring. The biggest pain I had with Novell was the fact that when you deleted a server with a read/write replica, I would need to sacrafice a goat to Novell just to get the tree back in order. Most of the times I would end up hacking NDS (not supported, but instructed by Novell support) just to actually tell it that things are gone.
IBM was a monopoly also.
Rome fell, but not in a day. My belief is that because Linux can be free it will take down Microsoft. That may or may not happen, but Microsoft will fall. Now I am not saying they won't be a player like IBM, but they will not be the 800lb gorilla they are today.
The gas milage looks great, and I also have a long commute, but the size of the car leaves a little to be desired. I have heard that Honda is going to produce an Accord that is a hybrid this year and hope to own one. I have seen the civic and would consider one, but I really like the size of the Accord more.
From what consumer reports and others say though, you are better off buying a normal civic because the price difference is over 4 grand, and 4 grand will buy a lot of gas. I come to the conclusion that I would rather give my 4 grand to Japan rather than the middle east.
Late...
You were in an accident in a Prius and lived to tell about it. How did the other go-cart come out? :-)
On a more serious note. I hope and pray that the U.S. finds and implements another energy source, and gets off it's dependance of oil in the middle east. It will be hard to fund terrorism without money...
You were correct. I ment the P900. Thank you very much!!! I checked out AT&T's page and it looks like I would have an excellent selection of phones to work with. They currently support the P800, so I would assume that they would support the P900 when it comes out.
Thanks again.
Does it run OS4 or OS5?
Can you load an SSH or Telnet program on it?
From what I have seen it looks like a cool device. How do you like it?
To me the Sony is the way to go. It looks like a good phone with some PDA features that I would probably use. I currently have an Ipaq 3970, that I hate and can't wait to replace with a phone like the Sony 900. Now the other product, looks like some PDA that they fit a phone around. It will still have all the same issues that the IPAQ has. Crappy OS, bugs and a battery hog. All that with the huge size to boot. It may be for some people, but for people like me that NEED a good phone and want SOME PDA functionality in it, the Sony is the way to go.
Now I just have to see if they have telnet and ssh for the Sony AND if anyone in the U.S. besides T-Mobile will support it. Man T-Mobile sucks also... I hope that Sony will work with Verizion, ATT&T or ANYONE but T-Mobile with their phone.
If I could mod you up I would. It is very difficult to buy an 800 in the U.S.A. Let alone this model.
My question for the U.S. people is
"Will this work with anyone but T-mobile?"
I hate T-mobile and would never use them again.