A Star would suit me just fine, I think. Thanks for the extra keyword (daybreak), incorporating that into my Ebay search as we speak.
As for Alto's being rarer than an Apple I, that would mean fewer than 150. I can't think of any computer system that would be rarer, off the top of my head. Shame how corporate disposal policies are killing all sorts of historical computers.:(
Software is always the bitch though, isn't it? An acquaintance of mine has a Cray supercomputer, I think it's going on 2 years now... still can't find a copy/license of Unicos. My DECstation (MIPS cpu, needs ultrix, not osf/tru64) has been sitting under my desk for 3 years, and it's annoying. I've managed to dig up nearly every major, and many minor, version of OpenVMS, and still can't find ultrix.
Hint: If anyone wants to discuss the quasi-legal exchange of esoteric OS's, I'm the guy you are looking for...
Outside shed, climate controlled with a nice big concrete slab floor. I have a few 220v receptacles and such, I store most of my mini-computers out there.
Yes, I do want one. I wouldn't butcher it and see if I could put a Athlon motherboard in it, or any of the other bullshit you see people doing with treasures like this. I'm willing to do the research to restore it, if it's not in working condition. And if it can be networked to a modern computer, I will do so... maybe even letting some respectul individuals use it remotely (as I do with some of my other oddball computers).
I may not be a museum curator, but I would provide a good home for it. I wouldn't even sell the thing if I couldn't keep it, I know a few like-minded individuals who become it's caretaker.
Oh, and finally, I'm fairly safe from most natural disasters in my area.
Only collectable system that fetches those types of prices are Apple I's, as far as I know. Though it wouldn't suprise me to see it get $2000-$3000, I guess, lord knows any of the old IMSAI stuff can get that on ebay.
What is your background in reality? Have you tested it from time to time, and found it not to your liking?
Fruit of the poisoned tree type arguments sometimes are ignored even when the parties who obtained the evidecen are cops. When they're PIs, and when the case is civil, it's always admitted. As far as decrypting encrypted stuff, it depends on the nature of the encrypted data, and a bunch of nearly contradicted laws that are interpreted by judges who almost always decide to let this stuff happen. Add to that the possible felonious nature of IP infringement, and the whole "They can't sue me, I didn't invite them to my illegal file swap meet" bullshit is laughable.
But I tell you what, the best way to prove me wrong is to test this legally... I mean, it's worth proving me a troll when the price is as inexpensive as ruining the next 20 years of your life with civil and criminal lawsuits, possible prison time or multi-thousand dollar fines, being barred from using a computer or other digital device, or any other inane penalty that some fascist judge can come up with just because you choce to arrange bits on your hard drive in a particular pattern.
Uh, that means that the cops can't search and seize. They aren't police officers, dimbat. So they may not even be barred from using illegally obtained evidence, they may not even try to use it. And even if they do, whats a $1000 fine to the RIAA?
The judge is not going to say "Since you're guilty of a $1000 offense, I'll let the defendant go on a $1,000,000 offense.". It doesn't work like that.
You remind me of the idiots that leave behind inadmissible evidence, that the point the cops in the direction of tons of *admissible* evidence. They get caught, arrested... and then cry "That's not fair!". You seem easily confused by what our Constitution allows and forbids, and how it is usually interpreted by judges at the state and federal level.
Besides, let's assume that it is a criminal case, being investigated by cops. They're collecting evidence to use at your trial. They can't come into your house without a warrant, and can't get that without a good reason. But can they break the encryption on your p2p network? (Technical considerations aside...) Well, I'm not aware of any interpretation of illegal search and seizure that considers your p2p network your house, property or person. In many ways, it would be like an undercover narc that gets invited to a "private club". Even if that club has a "no narcs" rule... the judge won't throw out his testimony based on some theoretical trespassing charge that won't stick. Hell, he'll even grant search warrants on such. The only thing that *might* be thrown out, is if the cop that infiltrates a p2p network uses some flaw to hack into your machine above and beyond what the p2p software allows. And given how little they understand tech, even that's far from sure.
Now, stay with me. That was all cops, in a criminal investigation. Say that the RIAA has private investigators that do perform illegal searches, and they present this evidence to the cops. In many cases, this evidence can be admissible. Often, the private investigators will get some sort of verbal reprimand, but I doubt many are charged with trespassing or privacy violations.
But let's go for the most likely scenario, a civil lawsuit. At that point, all bets are off. The cops aren't even involved (you might call on them for help, if the RIAA is trespassing... but since it doesn't rise to the level of $5000 of hacking damage, do you think they'll help? Hell, they might decide to prosecute you for pointing out to them you are breaking federal law...). Testimony and evidence obtained illegally are usually fair game. And they sure as hell can use it to find some idiot college student that will decide "it's in his best interest to testify for the plaintif". This won't sway 99% of judges even a little... and the other 1% won't be swayed enough to rule in your favor.
But let's say he did. Somehow, you win. You've just dropped out of college, because you can't afford that and the $100,000 worth of legal fees it took to get your miracle ruling. It's owed to a lawyer too, so good luck getting rid of it with bankruptcy... a bankruptcy judge will just work out some structured payment plan... which means the rest of your life, since you're just a high school graduate. They'll throw you in jail for contempt, if you fail to comply, too. And mind you, this is all wild-assed, best case scenario. Scroll up again, for the more likely possibilities.
And you know what, I don't even really disagree with all of this in principle. If I argued that the Constitution should protect against this, the only possible effect would be to weaken it. "The Constitution says we can't do this Sgt. Bacon, but those hippies are always claiming that it should protect them from prosecution of all sorts of criminal activity, so it must not be worth much! Let's ignore it!".
And I never even mentioned all the people put to death based on eye witness testimoney in the 19th century, the corruption in the judicial system that we all know is there to an unknown extent, the millions that the RIAA can spend on suc
But it's still the same end. The point is, they've taken it out. They don't need the settlement... only fools think that the "theft is hurting them, they need the settlement money to be compensated".
Besides, are you going to go to the trouble of all that, just to have it last 3 weeks, and cost you who knows how much in $$$ and effort? Incorporation fees, the box is property of the corp, and will be sold to pay the settlement when bankruptcy occurs. Travel expenses to Botswanaland. Shitty pipes in a third world country where they cost alot.
Unless we find some rich benefactor, there's not a chance in hell that will work. And I'm depressed you even think it has a chance. I mean, unless someone out there knows some hypnotism or voodoo that would let us brainstem-wash (*grin* it's not like they have the complete organ) politicians, you might as well give up.
I don't have money. But I do have a brain. Let's fight this with technology.
Once they've won their million dollar lawsuit, the judge might not throw out the "trespassing" charge against them, but it would be a slap on the wrist penalty for it.
And it sure as hell won't protect you from the million dollar settlement.
Besides, they might not even use the evidence they've illegally obtained. Rather, they would find some student/traitor that would be witness to the "awful theft of IP".
The law isn't a tool you can use, it's for them to use. Think of it as a smart gun that knows their fingerprints... you might punch them and take it, but it won't ever shoot them.
A) Valenti is over 80 yrs old, and has little to worry about having to go to prison (can you say suspended sentence). B) Furthermore, they'd have to extradite him, C) And finally, it's in scandinavia...hardly our US "pounded in the ass" federal prisons.
If the appeals judges can't be bought or blackmailed, then I'd still think they'd have family that could be threatened.
This is in addition to the 3 dozen lawyers they have working the case, politicians that are literally stumbling over themselves to kiss MPAA ass, and 100% total ignorance the common man has about copyright (not to mention, apparently more than a few judges/senators).
Hell, it's almost a side note that literally 0% of that "$3 billion in piracy" had anything to do with DeCSS.
It's one thing to dispute the existence of blinkenlights, but another to call someone a loser just because they won't read the specs of something they never intend to buy.
Besides, I have a rack and you don't. Nyah nyah nyah nyah.
PS What interface name does it show up in ifconfig as? A docsis0 would go nicely with my eth0-3, tr0-1, lt0, ipddp0, arc0, atm0, fddi0 and ppp0-5. Nyah nyah nyah nyah!
Heh. I removed the guts from this RCA piece of junk, and put it in a generic 1U rackmount case. Still pissed no one offers a real rackmount cablemodem...
Then again, a weiner like you probably always preferred internal modems. Bah! No blinkenlights!
I really just want to take some pictures of the thing, before they destroy it (hardware that we don't have a specific procedure in place for "data cleansing" is destroyed, and I know those guys arent going to remove just the huge disk drives and let it go at that). But I don't think the big boss will like the idea of me wandering around with a camera, so this thing will be lost completely. Damn shame. Should be sitting in a museum. Preferably *my* museum.
No, I mean a real one. I don't much care for emulation... my god, when ijits start talking about how Amiga emulation is sooooo great, I just want to vomit. (a real 500, two 2000's, a 3000 and a 4000).
I would like an old S/360 or S/370, but how many racks worth of space are we talking? A nice older Hitachi might be cool too, for that matter. And a Cray would just completely kick ass (though that is more of a supercomputer, than a mainframe, I take it..)
Besides, I need a few more machines to plug into the HIPPI backbone.
Depends on what type of hacker you mean. I'm trying to chase down a copy of CLIX, for the InterPro Clipper CPU system I've managed to get.
I have heard of MPE, remember the stories here on/. when HP decided to finally kill it.
And then, there is the HP 1000 at work, about 2 racks in size... is that the ancestor of your box? Wish I could have it, but I exhausted all my favors just getting them to give me the clipper machine instead of trashing it. And I was able to carry it out... I'd need a Uhaul for the HP.
I'm mostly a Windows monkey trying to be something more. So when I saw a JCL book for $1 at goodwill, I grabbed it. I managed to make it all the way through, and if nothing else, learning what "dd" (as in linux/unix dd) meant was cool. Some of it almost seemed familar.
Just wish I could find a machine to run this stuff on... all I have at home are mini's(a PDP11, some Vaxen, an Alpha, RS6000, etc). Anyone have a mainframe they want to get rid of? Or hell, can you even tell me what I'm looking for exactly...
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Well, I was under the impression that there were as many as 60-70 known Apple I's left. Out of 150-200 in the beginning.
But to think that 2500 (to 4500?) Alto's might have been pared down to fewer than 100 is sad indeed.
Note: The Xerox Alto is distinct and different from an "Altos" (name of the company) anything.
Out of the 1800 Beboxen ever built, wonder how many surive?
A Star would suit me just fine, I think. Thanks for the extra keyword (daybreak), incorporating that into my Ebay search as we speak.
:(
As for Alto's being rarer than an Apple I, that would mean fewer than 150. I can't think of any computer system that would be rarer, off the top of my head. Shame how corporate disposal policies are killing all sorts of historical computers.
Software is always the bitch though, isn't it? An acquaintance of mine has a Cray supercomputer, I think it's going on 2 years now... still can't find a copy/license of Unicos. My DECstation (MIPS cpu, needs ultrix, not osf/tru64) has been sitting under my desk for 3 years, and it's annoying. I've managed to dig up nearly every major, and many minor, version of OpenVMS, and still can't find ultrix.
Hint: If anyone wants to discuss the quasi-legal exchange of esoteric OS's, I'm the guy you are looking for...
Outside shed, climate controlled with a nice big concrete slab floor. I have a few 220v receptacles and such, I store most of my mini-computers out there.
Yes, I do want one. I wouldn't butcher it and see if I could put a Athlon motherboard in it, or any of the other bullshit you see people doing with treasures like this. I'm willing to do the research to restore it, if it's not in working condition. And if it can be networked to a modern computer, I will do so... maybe even letting some respectul individuals use it remotely (as I do with some of my other oddball computers).
I may not be a museum curator, but I would provide a good home for it. I wouldn't even sell the thing if I couldn't keep it, I know a few like-minded individuals who become it's caretaker.
Oh, and finally, I'm fairly safe from most natural disasters in my area.
Apple bought the GUI. Stock exchange of some sort, completely above the table. It's M$ that later stole it.
Your M$ bashing is virtuous, but when it leaks over onto other companies, you might want to be more careful.
Only collectable system that fetches those types of prices are Apple I's, as far as I know. Though it wouldn't suprise me to see it get $2000-$3000, I guess, lord knows any of the old IMSAI stuff can get that on ebay.
Amen. ;)
I've been searching for one for 3 years now...
What is your background in reality? Have you tested it from time to time, and found it not to your liking?
Fruit of the poisoned tree type arguments sometimes are ignored even when the parties who obtained the evidecen are cops. When they're PIs, and when the case is civil, it's always admitted. As far as decrypting encrypted stuff, it depends on the nature of the encrypted data, and a bunch of nearly contradicted laws that are interpreted by judges who almost always decide to let this stuff happen. Add to that the possible felonious nature of IP infringement, and the whole "They can't sue me, I didn't invite them to my illegal file swap meet" bullshit is laughable.
But I tell you what, the best way to prove me wrong is to test this legally... I mean, it's worth proving me a troll when the price is as inexpensive as ruining the next 20 years of your life with civil and criminal lawsuits, possible prison time or multi-thousand dollar fines, being barred from using a computer or other digital device, or any other inane penalty that some fascist judge can come up with just because you choce to arrange bits on your hard drive in a particular pattern.
I dare you.
Uh, that means that the cops can't search and seize. They aren't police officers, dimbat. So they may not even be barred from using illegally obtained evidence, they may not even try to use it. And even if they do, whats a $1000 fine to the RIAA?
The judge is not going to say "Since you're guilty of a $1000 offense, I'll let the defendant go on a $1,000,000 offense.". It doesn't work like that.
You remind me of the idiots that leave behind inadmissible evidence, that the point the cops in the direction of tons of *admissible* evidence. They get caught, arrested... and then cry "That's not fair!". You seem easily confused by what our Constitution allows and forbids, and how it is usually interpreted by judges at the state and federal level.
Besides, let's assume that it is a criminal case, being investigated by cops. They're collecting evidence to use at your trial. They can't come into your house without a warrant, and can't get that without a good reason. But can they break the encryption on your p2p network? (Technical considerations aside...) Well, I'm not aware of any interpretation of illegal search and seizure that considers your p2p network your house, property or person. In many ways, it would be like an undercover narc that gets invited to a "private club". Even if that club has a "no narcs" rule... the judge won't throw out his testimony based on some theoretical trespassing charge that won't stick. Hell, he'll even grant search warrants on such. The only thing that *might* be thrown out, is if the cop that infiltrates a p2p network uses some flaw to hack into your machine above and beyond what the p2p software allows. And given how little they understand tech, even that's far from sure.
Now, stay with me. That was all cops, in a criminal investigation. Say that the RIAA has private investigators that do perform illegal searches, and they present this evidence to the cops. In many cases, this evidence can be admissible. Often, the private investigators will get some sort of verbal reprimand, but I doubt many are charged with trespassing or privacy violations.
But let's go for the most likely scenario, a civil lawsuit. At that point, all bets are off. The cops aren't even involved (you might call on them for help, if the RIAA is trespassing... but since it doesn't rise to the level of $5000 of hacking damage, do you think they'll help? Hell, they might decide to prosecute you for pointing out to them you are breaking federal law...). Testimony and evidence obtained illegally are usually fair game. And they sure as hell can use it to find some idiot college student that will decide "it's in his best interest to testify for the plaintif". This won't sway 99% of judges even a little... and the other 1% won't be swayed enough to rule in your favor.
But let's say he did. Somehow, you win. You've just dropped out of college, because you can't afford that and the $100,000 worth of legal fees it took to get your miracle ruling. It's owed to a lawyer too, so good luck getting rid of it with bankruptcy... a bankruptcy judge will just work out some structured payment plan... which means the rest of your life, since you're just a high school graduate. They'll throw you in jail for contempt, if you fail to comply, too. And mind you, this is all wild-assed, best case scenario. Scroll up again, for the more likely possibilities.
And you know what, I don't even really disagree with all of this in principle. If I argued that the Constitution should protect against this, the only possible effect would be to weaken it. "The Constitution says we can't do this Sgt. Bacon, but those hippies are always claiming that it should protect them from prosecution of all sorts of criminal activity, so it must not be worth much! Let's ignore it!".
And I never even mentioned all the people put to death based on eye witness testimoney in the 19th century, the corruption in the judicial system that we all know is there to an unknown extent, the millions that the RIAA can spend on suc
But it's still the same end. The point is, they've taken it out. They don't need the settlement... only fools think that the "theft is hurting them, they need the settlement money to be compensated".
Besides, are you going to go to the trouble of all that, just to have it last 3 weeks, and cost you who knows how much in $$$ and effort? Incorporation fees, the box is property of the corp, and will be sold to pay the settlement when bankruptcy occurs. Travel expenses to Botswanaland. Shitty pipes in a third world country where they cost alot.
Better would be a worm that infected a few million computers, and then had the modems dial that number.
They don't want to be our parents. They want to be slaveowners, to be our masters.
After all, that's the most efficient way to extract value from a person, isn't it?
Unless we find some rich benefactor, there's not a chance in hell that will work. And I'm depressed you even think it has a chance. I mean, unless someone out there knows some hypnotism or voodoo that would let us brainstem-wash (*grin* it's not like they have the complete organ) politicians, you might as well give up.
I don't have money. But I do have a brain. Let's fight this with technology.
Once they've won their million dollar lawsuit, the judge might not throw out the "trespassing" charge against them, but it would be a slap on the wrist penalty for it.
And it sure as hell won't protect you from the million dollar settlement.
Besides, they might not even use the evidence they've illegally obtained. Rather, they would find some student/traitor that would be witness to the "awful theft of IP".
The law isn't a tool you can use, it's for them to use. Think of it as a smart gun that knows their fingerprints... you might punch them and take it, but it won't ever shoot them.
Yeh, but you forgot several key points
A) Valenti is over 80 yrs old, and has little to worry about having to go to prison (can you say suspended sentence).
B) Furthermore, they'd have to extradite him,
C) And finally, it's in scandinavia...hardly our US "pounded in the ass" federal prisons.
If the appeals judges can't be bought or blackmailed, then I'd still think they'd have family that could be threatened.
This is in addition to the 3 dozen lawyers they have working the case, politicians that are literally stumbling over themselves to kiss MPAA ass, and 100% total ignorance the common man has about copyright (not to mention, apparently more than a few judges/senators).
Hell, it's almost a side note that literally 0% of that "$3 billion in piracy" had anything to do with DeCSS.
Good luck Johansen...
It's one thing to dispute the existence of blinkenlights, but another to call someone a loser just because they won't read the specs of something they never intend to buy.
Besides, I have a rack and you don't. Nyah nyah nyah nyah.
PS What interface name does it show up in ifconfig as? A docsis0 would go nicely with my eth0-3, tr0-1, lt0, ipddp0, arc0, atm0, fddi0 and ppp0-5. Nyah nyah nyah nyah!
Heh. I removed the guts from this RCA piece of junk, and put it in a generic 1U rackmount case. Still pissed no one offers a real rackmount cablemodem...
Then again, a weiner like you probably always preferred internal modems. Bah! No blinkenlights!
Well, I wouldn't run it 24/7. Generally, I have less than 5 computers in the house running fulltime. Still would be cool as hell.
No, they'd be rated PG-13. Who needs accuracy, when you can just add a new split-the-middle movie rating every 5 years?
I really just want to take some pictures of the thing, before they destroy it (hardware that we don't have a specific procedure in place for "data cleansing" is destroyed, and I know those guys arent going to remove just the huge disk drives and let it go at that). But I don't think the big boss will like the idea of me wandering around with a camera, so this thing will be lost completely. Damn shame. Should be sitting in a museum. Preferably *my* museum.
No, I mean a real one. I don't much care for emulation... my god, when ijits start talking about how Amiga emulation is sooooo great, I just want to vomit. (a real 500, two 2000's, a 3000 and a 4000).
I would like an old S/360 or S/370, but how many racks worth of space are we talking? A nice older Hitachi might be cool too, for that matter. And a Cray would just completely kick ass (though that is more of a supercomputer, than a mainframe, I take it..)
Besides, I need a few more machines to plug into the HIPPI backbone.
Depends on what type of hacker you mean. I'm trying to chase down a copy of CLIX, for the InterPro Clipper CPU system I've managed to get.
/. when HP decided to finally kill it.
I have heard of MPE, remember the stories here on
And then, there is the HP 1000 at work, about 2 racks in size... is that the ancestor of your box? Wish I could have it, but I exhausted all my favors just getting them to give me the clipper machine instead of trashing it. And I was able to carry it out... I'd need a Uhaul for the HP.
I'm mostly a Windows monkey trying to be something more. So when I saw a JCL book for $1 at goodwill, I grabbed it. I managed to make it all the way through, and if nothing else, learning what "dd" (as in linux/unix dd) meant was cool. Some of it almost seemed familar.
Just wish I could find a machine to run this stuff on... all I have at home are mini's(a PDP11, some Vaxen, an Alpha, RS6000, etc). Anyone have a mainframe they want to get rid of? Or hell, can you even tell me what I'm looking for exactly...
Just one more example of CmdrTaco and his crew reposting the same article. Happens all the time...
Hello, I'm Larry and this is my brother Archer, and this is my other brother Archer.