Slashdot Mirror
Germany Places Command & Conquer on Restricted List
heli0 writes "CNet is reporting that Germany has placed EA's newest Command & Conquer game 'Generals' on its restricted list, which means it may not be advertised or displayed on shelves although it may be kept under store counters and sold to adults. The reason according to Elke Monssen-Engberding, director of the Ministry for Family Affairs: 'It portrays war as the only way to resolve conflicts.'"
Are they also going to ban 90% of the rest of the games where conflict is the only option?
Games are violent.
Get over it.
anyways
that is stupid, the ratings on games is pointless almost, i find it more offensive for a war game to get a teen rating, but a game like DOA xtreme vollyball gets mature
i think we got priorities mixed up
i sell videogames all day at work, and i think war game are more damaging then big breasted bimbos vollyballing
thats just my idea
oh ya fuck the war
Can we put George Bush onto a Restricted list? He certainly portrays war as the only way to resolve conflicts.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
The article says Electronic Arts believe it has something to do with what's going on in Iraq right now.
If this is the case, it's plain ignorance.
Many games are put on the restricted list in Germany, and this one isn't really a shocker. Perhaps if Timmy the Tooth: Decay Demolisher II was placed on this list there might be some questions behind the reasoning, but a war game? Not a surprise by a long shot.
Americans and their Freedom Fries
Rapid Nirvana
Anyone else wants to bet that sales will soar?
GTA3 was in the news here in Norway a lot when it was released. Different agencies and ministers connected with children all wanted to ban it. Result? Top seller in Norway that year...
A)bort, R)etry or S)elf-destruct?
and we still have wars.
When will people realise that some things (i.e. war) are in our nature and will not change anytime soon.
the title alone promotes war, portrays it as a skill, as something to strive for and improve on !
And solitaire, what kind of an asocial name with an egoist attitude is that ?
When will I end this grieving ? When will my future begin ?
And once again, citizens are rudely disabused of the notion that the State is a benevolent force, be it "left wing" or "right wing".
A Government either protects your natural rights or it removes them from you.
Choose which you prefer.
...you refuse to play. Can you get re-elected Chancellor?
The game, Command & Conquer Generals, depicts an animated siege of Baghdad, with the United States military battling a fictional terrorist group called the Global Liberation Army, which bombs the city with missiles carrying anthrax, killing civilians.
Come on had they not had this in the game or at least changed the name of the city to something else, youd not have this problem. You see americans boycott french goods, now the germans are doing it to the americans.
later,
"Im drowning here, and you're describing the water!"
Politics... why can't we live in peace without that damned politics?
I bet those politicians are now drooling when they think about all the extra votes they will get in the next poll. The Romans really had it right. Let the plebs live their own lives, give them bread and circus and they will stay happy and ignorant.
Should they ban Quake type games too now? What about military flight simulators? What about strategy games where military action is a part of the game? Why not ban all computer games except the original Tetris?
The war in the gulf is underway. That's a reality. They should adjust to it and make sure that it is over as soon as possible with as little civilian casualities as possible. Do they think they can get the coalition to just back off and go home?
//TheToon
Sounds like... some of the German politicians are forgetting their own history. That war was the only way to resolve the conflict they started in WW2.
Diplomacy is what caused it to be such a large conflict in the first place. If we hadn't conceded the annexation of Austria, would there have been WW2? Who knows.. Hypocritical liberal view of history is bunk. And besides THAT even, black listing games because they depict war is even more retarded. C'mon free speech, fascist pigs.
-Jeff
Hundreds of years of military tradition, and now this?
Did they get their asses handed to them in a war, or something?
*honk*
This is my sig. It's prescription, I swear. I need it for reading things... on the other side of things
And my brother is a marine... muhahahaha
I can't remember the saying exactly, but it goes along the lines that there is no such thing as bad press. I have to wonder if Germany isn't inadvertantly encouraging sales by restricting advertising.
People will always want what they are not supposed to have
----
Squirrel
"We have evidence that the Brotherhood of Nod does indeed have a harvester. For all we know, they could be harvesting Tiberium as we speak."
That's it! I'm boycotting German Porn from now on! Only American porn for me.
"We Germans are not a warlike people"
"I would say that 99 per cent of what my father has written about his own life is false." - L. Ron Hubbard Jr.
A quote I saw the other day
"You know that times are stange when the best rapper in the world is white, the best golfer in the world is black, the Americas cup is held by landlocked Sweden, the French are accusing the Americans of arrogance and Germany is steadfstly refusing to go to war."
I agree with this decision. The reporting of this war has verged on pornography, with too many reporters getting excited about bombs and tanks and too little attention being paid to the human cost. They are right not to ban it, but right not to promote the joy of conflict at this time either.
"Chess doesn't even include the concept of diplomacy," they will say. "Why can't the two sides just appeal to some sort of Security Council that can veto the war and send both people home? And it's so violent. Oh sure, the pieces are 'captured'. Yeah, right. Everyone who has seen the first Harry Potter movie knows the brutal truth about what really happens when you 'capture' a piece in chess."
They might also point out that only one piece out of 16 on each side is female. Why not half? It's sexist as well as violent!
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Run away! Run away!
This sort of things annoys me and I'm going to tell you why :). Games such as GTA and the other C+C games in some countries had age restrictions placed on them. Now if a game is rated 18 I would expect it to be sold only to adults. If some underage tried to buy it then the shopkeeper should ask for proof of age.
Hiding something away doesn't make it go away. IMHO it actually makes it more exciting as its forbidden. Surel 99.9% realise that ITS JUST A GAME. Its not reality. I mean I don't play Burnout 2 and then go out and cause a car crash do I?
Or what about Tetris? Do you see me trying to control blocks that are falling from the sky?
Just my pet peeve
rus
Cheap UK and US VPS
- The game was put on the list three weeks ago, before the war started. Thanks C|net for noticing...
- Many games are put on that list, independently of who produces them.
- CC3 does promote war, force and use of WMDs as the only option without alternatives. So, if you think a list like that makes sense (which I don't necessarily do), it reasonable to put CC3 on it.
Note that being on the list hasn't stopped the success of these games in Germany in the past...You have to admit, the kickass intro to C&C Generals shows what appears to be news footage with just the talking mouths. The narration is "In the Twentieth century, world leaders resolve conflicts with words. Words like SCUD MISSILE". Unfortuantly I don't have the game installed atm, but it basically gives the impression that world leaders solve conflicts by blowing the crap out of each other.
The game very stylishly makes this seem cool. And it is amusing. While the gameplay is basically no different than the standard rts, and is not as good as Total Annihilation was (that game is STILL better than nearly anything created since), it has lots of style. The voiceovers and graphics are top notch and hilarious parodies of the present day. The chinese builder says "china will grow larger". The American Crusader tank says "Do what's right", and "Protect our people". There are various voiceovers for the terrorists side like "kill the villagers, they are stealing our supplies".
I don't know about the current C&C, but one of the earlier ones re-wrote history so the nazis were on the allies side in WW2. I find that sort of historical revisionism to be disgusting. Because of that I have never bought any version of C&C and I haven't bought an EA game for years.
On the eve of the twentieth century in 1899 a German called Delbrcks words were: We must become a world power ... we cannot go back. We can do this with England or against her. With her means peace; against her,war.'. History bears witness that one nation will go down as the cause of more deaths and misery through its acts of aggression in the last century than any other. So please do not be surprised if someone is trying to protect Germany's youth from making the same mistakes as their forefather's when they take the reigns of their country's leadership. The deaths of millions of people is a very heavy burden for a nation to carry.
Of coruse AIM-Bots will reduce the civilian and commercial impact.
To make things a little bit clearer: The restriction of games like C&C is to protect the young ones.
C&C was 'banned' because of the explicit and graphic visualisation of war, especially the attack on Bagdad.
Seems quite ironic to me now that you can see live pictures of that very thing in the news all day long. Dead bodies in the afternoon news. Very nice, the little kids will love that.
If you are 18+ you can still buy the game.
-- Truth suffers from too much analysis.
Slow Down Cowboy!
Slashdot requires you to wait 2 minutes between each successful posting of a comment to allow everyone a fair chance at posting a comment.
It's been -34 seconds since you last successfully posted a comment
--
Did I mention this is really gay? Please slashdot, stop being totally gay.
http://www.moveon.org/declaration/
Let's conquer the French first to warm up. They sold nuclear weapons technology to Iraq in the 80's; they support terrorism.
I'm from germany and i think they have a point in hiding it away. The reason i read was that some missions are to be solved by killing civilians.
But who cares for the geneva conventions
Everybody with a reasonable age is still in the position to play this game just that it is not allowed to advertise it.
Cool down
There should be a "Pass United Nations Resolution Condemning the Opposition" button which gives the player who presses it an automatic win? :-/
I don't quite understand what it is exactly that they want Westwood to do.
... if German lawmakers ran the game industry? War games are war games because that's what's cool. What kind of boring stuff would Germany rather have its citizens play? Diplomacy games? Peacekeeping games? How about SimBlowhard, the true-to-life foreign relations sim, replete with advanced spin-doctor AI?
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
Degaulle came to Canada during our FLQ crisis and tried to enourage terrorist activity here by shouting "long live a free quebec". France has a long history of being pro-terrorist.
While I don't agree with government censorship for the most part, somehow the politics of their desicion slightly make me support the idea. I mean, it is not like the forbidding the sell of these games to assumingly mature adults, and recently I saw a C&C ad that basically said that war was the only option to peace (which kinda pissed me off). Well, I guess this really shows that though I value objectivity, I am really just a biased subjective bastard/hypocrit. Yeah, I suck.
This page was generated by a Barrel of Circus Midgets, and that is the way I like it!!!
Yeah, and the British and the Americans, too! They sold chemical and bacteriological weapons (not even just the technology) to Iraq in the 80's! And given all the shit they've done around the world, they definitely support terrorism, whenever it suits them.
The reason according to Elke Monssen-Engberding, director of the Ministry for Family Affairs: 'It portrays war as the only way to resolve conflicts.'"
Germany outlaws ideas, beliefs and feelings. If thought crimes ever existed, it will start in Germany.
Of course, here in the USA, if you voice bias towards a minority, it can be considered a Hate Crime.
-
Political Correctness can bite my shiney metal ass.
On, brave old Army team!
On to the fray.
Fight on to victory
For that's the fearless Army way.
And here I were beeing smug over the whole "freedom fries/toast" thingy.
;-)
...but along comes the friggin Ministry Of Trivial Stupidity and proves that laughable selective stupidity is indeed global, and yes it affects us in the EU too.
Last time I checked something like 90% of all games was insanely violent, but... hey lets single one random game out ond pick on it.
I'm sure it will save our children real soon now.
Shape up Germany, you are seriously hampering my ability to look down my nose at USians
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
The only way to change is to bring all the ideas out into the open, even the evil ones. Especially them.
My mistake, sorry.
By way of apology here is a link to a mildly amusing Picture of President Bush.
Well, I know quite a few people who stopped playing it, including me, out of their own accord. I'm all against indexing and usually find it rather ridiculous to censor games.
But in the case of C&C:Generals I can somehow understand it. The storyline was actually annoying and embarrassing to me. Nuking the Three Gorges Dam just to level a terrorist camp? Bomb a convention center to get them out? WTF?
And don't even get me started on the GLA campaign were you have to slaughter civilians to further your score. Last time I checked terrorist weren't killing their own people like some crazed suicide commando out of Monty Phytons Flying Circus.
It's the politically correct Westeners (actually the US) vs. the stinking abstract terrorists. Oh, there's China too which attacks only in numbers and doesn't care about civilian casualties. I mean hey, isn't that an exact portrayal of the world right now? *ugh* Not.
This is not solely about strategy anymore, it's oversimplification bordering to propaganda. Not that I say this was intented this way, which I cannot know, but that's the impression I got.
It portrays war as the only way to resolve conflicts.
<troll>
So, will GWB be refused a visa next time he visits Deutschland?
</troll>
The Americans encouraged the FLQ to launch terrorist attacks in Canada?
...if Saddam and Bush had such games in their youths they wouldn't need to get their excitement in wasting soldiers now.
I remember getting most of the games I ever played as a gift from my parents. IF C&C can be sold to adults I think it realy won't help. Violence isn't stopped by banning games in my opinion. It's the role-model kids see that's influencing them the most
/(bb|[^b]{2})/
They are not singling out one game. RTFA. If you want to look down one something, at least try and know what you're talking about.
So did the US, no nuclear weapons, but weapons, to support Saddam in his war agains Iran.
THE US SUPPORT TERRORISM!!!!!
"War as the only resolution" blah-di-blah. That's just stupid politician-talk, making use of the current anti-war feelings in Germany.
In reality, the game was endangered from the day it came out, and we all here in Germany knew that. See, there's this stupid law to make sure that there are no violent games out there...displaying force against humans or even humanoids.
Except for a few politicians, we are pretty irritated by it, seeing as we are perfectly able to distinguish between shooting at a human as opposed to clicking a mouse button while looking at colorful little dots.
Free PC version of ChipWits at http://www.breueronline.de/klaus/chipwits/
We're all nerds here, right? One word: Battlechess.
Especially as one of the biggest selling, most poular series of games in Germany is "moorhuhn" where you use a shotgun to balst defenceless birds out of the sky.
At least in C+C the enemy can shoot back!
----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
If the Germans are putting the game on the restricted list because 'It portrays war as the only way to resolve conflicts', by extension of the same logic, shouldn't the United States drop the price 50% maybe or, uh, just give it away free?
As regards those of you implying that the Germans shy away from violence on TV, on the contrary -- in my many visits there, I've noticed that some of the content is quite graphic and very violent. But the big difference is that the violence they show on TV is nine times out of ten the real thing: news of robberies, middle-east conflict, wars etc. They tend (AFIACT) to not show depicted/fictional violence which although may be condescending to most of us, implying that we cannot tell the difference between depicted and actual violence, but at least young children will not be wondering if it's real or not.
Additionally, they are well aware of their violent past and are not trying to ignore/hide it. Any time I was there, there was usually some kind of WWII documentary going on somewhere on TV.
- Oisin
PGP KeyId: 0x08D63965
Any publicity is good publicity, and good publicity is even better.
This embedded comment brought to you by the Council on Opinions Galore.
But think about it. Arent the medias and entertainment the main part of this war? And i think many people have mostly mental pictures from some fascist hollywood war movies in their head when they bladdering something about "we just defend ourselfs". Sure there is the evil guy (Saddam) and there is the brave guy, who just wants his "damn right to feel safe". This simplicity doesnt exist, but if people imagine it this way they have no problem to kill or let kill some people they dont know.
I think its a good thing not to let this kind of war propaganda in the future to the people, because youve seen it this time, how easy it was to start this war.
I dont believe that this german decision can be understood by the majority of the rest of the world espacially by the american people.
And telling us that we would be more tolerant when having own troops (even SS troops) in such a game shows how less you really understand!!!
But fact is, putting violent games on a black list is nothing special over here in germany. A large amount of fp-shooters are on that list and every game that is about shooting and killing human beeings as main part of the game has a big chance to join that blacklist. That was in times of peace and stays also nowadays. I am convinced that this decision has nearly nothing to do with that war, even if it seems so.
By the way, in my opinion americans should better have a president that was elected and is more intelligent than a bread. Because dumb people can be affected too easyly by the great economics.
because I'll tell you, in the intro video of that game, it specifically says:
"In The Modern World. Great Leaders Resolve There Conflicts With Words.... Words Like: SCUD LAUNCHER (image of a scud missile's launching) CARPET BOMBING (image of a plane carpet bombing a city) TOMAHAWK MISSLE (image of a tomahawk missile launching)
Can you be a Great Leader?"
Well at least something can be said for honesty..
If you want to look down one something, at least try and know what you're talking about.
What? And break the good old slashdot tradition of screaming bloody murder without actually knowing what I'm talking about?
Seriously, I don't matter much to me if a country have uniformly applied standards of censorship or not.
The whole idea of not letting a publisher advertise for a blody game seems a little too authoritarian for my taste.
Tobacco or alcohol, for example I could understand since you could make a solid case that they are harmful, but a game?
Code is speech. period.
As for looking down on people, I would think that the ";-)" following immediately after that statment would imply that it was sort of thounge in cheek, but apparently that didn't come across for all readers...
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
1) Parents will just buy the games for their children after muttering the German equivalent of "Just remember honey, this is make believe".
/. and just want the game that much more.
2) It's not like war as conflict resolution is going to go away because kids didn't practice on their computers.
3) It's not like war as conflict resolution will get any *worse* because kids do practice on their computers.
4) Basically it's a lot of pointless rules that does absolutely no good and makes a bunch of stinky computer geeks complain on
The problem of "C&C Generals" is that it portrays war as a "fun thing" - yay, let's go to war! The spoken comments of the game characters, the game's settings - I read a report that says that the game campaign includes targetting civilians (and calls this "acceptable collateral damage") and bombing UN convoys. The game is, in one word, cynical.
Yes, I do like strategy games and first person shooters. But these games are usually set in an alternate reality or at least use broad irony. "C&C Generals" is set in a copy of today's world and it uses conflicts similar to current ones as blueprints for its scenarios, using highly cynical approaches to "solve" them.
There's a difference between James Bond and the late Rambo movies...
------------------
You may like my a cappella music
How did Germany, the main driving force behind WW1 and WW2 suddenly go anti-war?
We are talking about the first people to defeat the Romans and drive them out of Northern Europe!
Now, they hate war, hate the US but still want to continue to trade with terrorist. I'm confused..?
L053R
Of course combat games don't present peaceful solutions to conflict. Would you buy them if they did?
Being against war is one thing. Thinking that a video game will turn a user into a terrorist or Rambo is just plain stupid. Does anyone think that video games made Bush, Saddam Hussein, or bin Laden what they are today?
Besides, C&C is more about learning how to collect and organize resources than anything else, new armies have to be built from local materials. Make or buy decisions. Those are lessons equally applicable to the military, business, or government. That gives it a certain redeeming value.
The real world is becoming more warlike and shielding people from "warlike" ideas is not exactly positive for their survival.
Of course, Germany also bans Nazi and other kinds of sites as well, practicing information control with the kind of enthusiasm and efficiency Joseph Goebbels could have only dreamed of.
It's difficult to believe that this makes Germany as a country or Germans as a people any safer.
Tech Public Policy stuff
yes, not very surprising after what has happend in germany, although CS and the likes are the real bad boys IMHO, CS has done and will continue to do _ALOT_ of damage :( //Leiffi of Finland
I guess much can be said about the influence of gaming/entertainment on upbringing and reasoning and if this should have such a significan weight.
The least thing you can say that Germany is consistent and although this decision is probably influenced by recent events, I can support them (especially since it's not really censorship in the strictest sence: you can still buy the game without problem).
btw, war isn't really resolving conflicts (ever), it's just anihilating it by destroying the oponent 's view (together with the oponent that is).
Genius doesn't work on an assembly line basis. You can't simply say, "Today I will be brilliant."
In my opinion, the game's atmosphere does indeed have a pro-war, conservative biased smell to it. I won't go into specifics, because it's mostly bits and pieces that is better understood once played.
One thing that I will touch on is C&C Generals Online's interesting (and mandatory) word filtering (both in chat rooms and in multiplayer games).
Along with the traditional swear words, don't expect to use words such as:
"saddam", "osama", "hitler", and "god". They will all show up as aterisks. If that's any indication to the mindset the developers/story writers are in, it's a pretty ludicrous one.
In France, porn movies and reviews are on the higher shelves. They even can be in a different room, which access is restrained to adult people. In Germany, porn can on any shelf, but you can find video games shops where violent games are in a different room, for 18+. I remember when comanche (the first) has been declared "violent". Germany has a long story now of debates on which game is violent. What you can draw is that games that are addictive and in which you mae fun of killing people are "violent". Games like combat flight simulator are saw in a completely different way than C&C. Remember, Germany has even banned the "Jungle speed" card game, because it was too dangerous.(I aggree, this card game is deadly dangerous! But so fun!)
162 comments and only 1 higher than +4!
what am I to read?
I say you give me +5 informative.
Using yellow and purple flowers, take out the tanks at the gate, then capture the infantry with hot chocolate and cookies. Give each guard a teddy bear and finally destroy the enemy HQ using the collected literary works of Gandhi. Secondary mission objective: disable the rocket launchers with chewing gum and doughnuts.
the german "Bundesruefstelle fuer jugendgefaehrdende Schriften" (federal department for the control of youth-endangering writings) maintains a list of products that are deemed "adult material". These products may neither be advertised, nor openly sold, but after an ID check may be sold to anyone age 18 or higher. these products fall into the following categories :
- hard pornography
- violence
- drug abuse
- political extremist material
the first computer game ever to end up on this list was A10:Tank Killer. Other games include the Doom, Quake and Command and Conquer series. The Bundespruefstelle lost a lot of power over the years, but got a lot of influence after the Erfurt school shootings.and now for the reality check : as much as 18-year olds are able to obtain beer in the united states, 16-year olds can get a copy of C&C:Generals in Germany. if they can't buy it in their software shop of choice, they just get it per mailorder from Austria or Holland. the whole reason of this restrictive list is that, after WWII, there was a meme shift in Germany. The fascism meme (fascism as in "power trough violence") was replaced by the democracy meme, and most Germans/Western Europeans think that a game/book/movie that promotes the killing of human beings is not suited for kids.
my point : this restriction list is not really potent, and has existed long before the current situation, even in a time when Germany and the US where close buddies. So don't see this as some kind of America-bashing. If we "old Europeans" accept the American attitude about gun ownage, you might as well accept ours.
Karma
One of the things that used to impress me about /. was the fairly balanced viewpoints portrayed on this site. Unlike the Fray on Slate, there were very few racists and very few people making derogatory comments about other nations.
Now I see posts talking about invading Germany, blaming all Germans for Hitler and abusing the French.
Have you all suddenly become "patriots"? Or do we just have an invasion of 14 year olds getting over excited about seeing the war on TV?
How would you Americans have felt if in October 2001 a German company had released a flight simulator that simulated a plane crashing into the World Trade Centre towers?
Electronic Arts have been insensitive and are guilty or using the "patriotic" fervour that is very evident in the US at the moment to try and increase sales. What next? A Comand and Conquer that has an invasion of Mecca?
Oh man, a slashdot discussion related to the game sounds just like the C&C online lobbies.
I wish they'd sell the game only to adults, who have no caps lock key on their keyboards, elsewhere in the world as well.
And if it stops one German kid from declaring war on France then it will be worth it.
How about a video game in which the goal is to convince the UN that they shouldn't allow conflict in a country you have oil interests in? Now that would be fun for the whole family!
The German federal minstry for family affairs had wished to capitalize on the current political situation. Of course that's pointless. Moreover, the ministry can only *apply* that a play be banned. The decision is made by an independent commision.
The real problem is: should a government ban offensive material like violent films, porn, plays etc, and if yes, what must be tagged "offensive", and how should it be banned? This discussion goes on for decades now, in every Western country.
In general, the European point of view tends to be more permissive with porn, the American, with violence. However, although sometimes stated, it has never been proven that consuming porn produces rapists, nor that playing war games harms innocent youngsters.
The German procedure it as follows: porn only for adults, no public advertising of genitals. The definition for pornography is "explicit display of genitals during intercourse". Compared to US standards, a rather liberal definition. For games and films, there is a list maintained by said commision. Games (and films) on the list must not be sold to juveniles, nor advertised.
Of course, these lists and bans will hardly have any effect at all. No bureaucrat will hinder people from having a good wank, or practicing how to become the Butcher of Baghdad. In Germany and elsewhere.
And finally: like most things happening in Germany, this affair has *nothing*, I repeat: **nothing** to do with Germany's past.
C&C Generals ROX. If they want to ban it SO WHAT (it's just a game for crimeny). Maybe they should BAN movies made in Hollywood depicting WAR as well (Don't get me started on those hypocrites that oppose the war but make $$$ off of making WAR MOVIES)! ...or maybe they should be like JAPAN and BAN GUNS...
All I care about is that I LIVE HERE.... I AM FREE AND I CAN CHOOSE TO LIVE MY LIFE HOW I WISH WITH NO CENCORSHIP.
Joke 'em if they can't take a fuck.
I find it ironic that Germany claims to have a perfect knowledge of war, and because of that, they've concluded that they will never EVER go back to the ways of Nazism. Yet what are they doing? Forcing a politcal mindset upon a population!
If Germany wanted to enforce this liberal viewpoint, they could have found far better things to restrict. I mean, a computer game? Everyone knows computer games are a fantasy world. Kids are smart enough to know that gaming foreign policy ("napalm those guys standing there...I want to want that hilarious burning stick figure animation again") is completely opposite to real world foreign policy ("Killing people really really sucks, lets try to talk it out first.") This whole idea seems less to do with German idealism, and much more like an opportunity to appear smarter and more mature than America.
Going after computer games...German leaders may think they are philisophical gurus, but they sure don't have any common sense.
In a move taken by Berlin as to not seem hypocritical, all American icons on German televisions, newspapers and plastic lunchboxes have been banned. It is unknown what effect this will have on Baywatch and Knight Rider merchandise, because... well..
say it with me here folks..
Germans love David Hasselhoff.
'cause believe it or not, the conflict is an intrinsic part of all games.
How this conflict is visually represented is an entirely different matter. However, violent or non-violent, direct or indirect (Chris Crawford) playing a game revolves around the attempt to resolve a structural conflict.
Seems like they'll be keeping themselves perty busy in Germany.
naah sig schmig
Translate http://www.aljazira.it from italian to english, using the mighty babelfish
So tell me who of us is living in the past,
blinded and ignorant!
There's a chilling occurence in the game where terrorists bomb a marketplace in Baghdad, with the U.S. military acting as saviors, trying to prevent the incident. The way the incident is portrayed in the game is exactly the way the U.S. would like to see the media cover yesterday's real missile attack on Baghdad's crowded marketplace by coalition forces.
It's ironic and foreshadowing to such an extent, in predicting U.S. foreign policy, that one wonders if Gen. Franks is playing the game to figure out how to wage war..
"We don't stop playing games because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing games.."
This game has 3 different "camps", the american: high-tech ones; the chinees: much meat available for war
and the terrorists: using cars to explode tanks etc
Of course the missions are always to "win" and control the world... An example: with terrorists you have to use 3 groups of riotting ppl to destroy a whole city to get money. With that money you build your base and destroy the other players
Maybe this is too "close" to reality for germany, but hey, this is only a game, strategy one in full 3D, using chemicals, nuclear, etc =)
Verry good one if you like the c&c, only remark would be the 3D enginge, which you need some time to adapt too
Yes, they have. Like when they supported those renegade British Colonies in North America. At least they have proven themselves to be real friends to the United States when they stood up to tell Bush that he is wrong. That is what friends are for.
Maybe they should have included UN unit which gives you some sort of bonus :) or a UN Aid building that if you erect it on enemy territory you get money.
the first victims of the Iraqi war would be German teenagers? Poor kids won't be able to play a pretty decent game.
Sometimes, governments can be impractical. Sometimes politicians do something just for the sake of getting noticed. I've noticed that lots of countries that havent addressed or handled domestic issues and violence, are trying to act big and denouncing war. The war against war, starts at home... in your own house, town, city and country.
Well.. maybe citing war b/w existing countries in a game may be looked down upon, might as well make em all up.... good ole NOD vs something else.
|/________
|\A|ALYS|
"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music."
Kristian Wilson, Nintendo VP, 1989
All the people calling the germans facist pigs and being equally retarded need to wake up, and READ. They aren't banning the game. They gave it a mature rating. It won't be advertised to minors, and they won't be able to buy it without assitance from an adult. Big fucking deal. It's like the explicit lyrics label on CD's which none of us purchase anymore. Its like the ratings on the movies. R Movies == 17...chill out. this is not a big deal.
I went over there during Christmas. All night after about 10:00/11:00 it's nothing but porn on the regular public channels. They've got no problem with some kids watching a chick piss into a guy's mouth, but when it comes to them making a bunch of tanks with what look like high-tech christmas trees attached to them shooting lightning at everything, that's over the lines there.
Come on man, the game would suck if they were to add a negotiate module that you had to go through before that. I can just imagine:
Friends: "Dude, come on over, I've got the new Halo game on my GameCube."
Kid: "No, I can't, it's really intense right now. I'm buisy negotiating the terms under which we capitalists and the communists can resolve our differences. Wait, yes, I did it. Now I can play... What? We resolved our differences, so there's no war. This sucks!"
The reason according to Elke Monssen-Engberding, director of the Ministry for Family Affairs: 'It portrays war as the only way to resolve conflicts.'
EA has solved the problem through a game redesign. Now the first thing that happens when you start a game is that the following message appears:
You are president of Baristan. Your country shares a border with Fooistan. Fooistan is ruled by a bloodthirsty dictator who like to uses mustard gas and nerve gas on his own people for kicks. He has amassed several thousand tanks and infantry on your border and has announced that he is now Divine Ruler of Foobaristan and that your country rightfully belongs to him.
How would you like to resolve this conflict?
(W)ar
(D)iplomacy
If you select (W)ar then the game proceeds as usual. If you select (D)iplomacy, well... lets just say the game is very short.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
...is being shown on this thread. People seem to be genuenly angry about the german decision to ban c&c advertising. At the same time you can't even show women's breasts on american network-tv.
That's sad, after all war is a lot unhappier thing than love. A good look in the mirror would be in place for our american friends.
- Fight for freedom;
- censor for peace;
- repeat.
What better way to keep people busy?It was reported on Heise in February. Use the Fish.
Maybe EA will be putting out a new title for the German market in the near future:
Discuss and Negotiate
It seems to be ok to shit on other people in German videos but not to show a Nazi symbol like a swastika, or to play violent video games.
Perhaps mutual erotic defecation is the wave of the future? I suggest a UN resolution.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
What's a big deal though is that they're not even allowed to have them out on the shelves. What the hell. Even here, there's porn right there in the racks of Suncoast Video in the mall. Granted, they're covered by some crappy plastic shield things (funny stuff when someone takes them :) but they're still there accessable. And we can advertise for those things. They're completely banning this game's advertising and shelf space. This game which shows no real violence unlike any of the UT/Quake games simply because it's a war game which 'portrays war as the only way to resolve conflicts.' Go fig. It's a war game.
If we kill people who are just like us, then there will be none of us left. If we kill people who are not like us, we can take their stuff.
What? You want us to stop killing people?
As if.
I have to agree with putting this game on an index, as a german who usually hates his country banning certain games (you can still buy them, they are not be advertised)
It is a bad joke by EA and their Pentagon sponsors, and I really wanted to vomit after hearing the first word of the Intro
"In the modern world, great leader resolve conflicts with words like Scud Storm, Tomahawk Missiles...."
This game is full of racism and propaganda, its just disgusting.
GWB is not a great leader, he is a nazi puppet
I played the first part of the series and had a brief look at the second one. I don't know about the second, but in the first the soldiers were changed into androids for the German market. The only change in the actual game was that the blood was removed and they made a different sound when a tank drove over them. Apart from that, the descriptions in the manual (which was translated anyway) were changed. That way, they avoided landing on the index. Silly.
The same ministry liked Unreal more than Quake because you shouldn't shoot everything that moves, there are friendly creatures that help you if you let them. I heard rumours the 'Nali' were mainly introduced to make the game available in Germany.
The really bad part (for me, personally) of the story is that to about every publisher, the German and Austrian markets are the same, because the localisation is identical. This goes so far that Amazon.at is apparently Amazon.de with the last two letters changed, nothing else. As a result, Quake 3 Arena, for example, was available in all the stores, because there is no such index in Austria, but once it was sold out, you couldn't just get it from Amazon. They don't have it.
In the end, I ordered one from France. Please excuse me now, I have to put on my armure de combat, take my lance-roquettes and enter l'arena eternal.
but what do i know, i'm just a model.
unless he is willing to eat a full load of tomatoes and eggs. Most of us germans hate him with passion and we would indeed show him our appreciation for his PNAC crap policy
... talking about Germany, I just had to submit this joke...
You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, The Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the US of arrogance, and Germany doesn't want to go to war!
Like the subject says, they probably played the game. I think EA have taken it a bit to close to the bone this time.
If you play the USA all your weapons have advanced technology (integrated defence systems) and the pilots sound like Bush.
Likewise the Rebels use Scud launchers, Angry mob's, Arms Dealers, etc. And have a guess who they sound like?
That game is going to sell like crazy. Who doesn't want a banned over the counter game.
I tried to respond to a comment and got this:
Maximum Comments Exceeded!
You've reached your maximum number of comments you can post: 269 comments over 4 hours.
Chances are, you're behind a firewall or proxy, or clicked the Back button to accidentally reuse a form. Please try again. If the problem persists, and all other options have been tried, contact the site administrator.
At first it said 271 comments; I hit "back", then "reply" again, and it went down to 270, did it again it went to 269. Did it a few more times, but it stayed at 269.
But now, a minute later, I'm posting again.
WTF?
I'd think it would take a little more than a video game to bring the uppity ones out of their holes.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
English is not my 1st language, so cut me some slack.
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
If losing a war is what it takes to become wise about the horrors of war and the available pacifistic alternatives, I hope that the US/UK alliance loses (or at least not wins) this war.
;-)
But on the other hand, I don't want Saddam to win either. This war just isn't right and any choice is probably a bad one. And staying neutral is probably a bad choice as well...
I hate this world, time to move on to.... Betelgeuse
I don't know about this particular game--maybe the decision makes sense, maybe it doesn't. But I think it is good that advertising is not considered "free speech" and that not everything goes when it comes to advertising. Of course, far more dangerous than advertisements for video games would seem to be advertisements for fast food. But perhaps they'll get around to restricting those, too.
BTW Quake/UT are also "banned". (from the best of my knowledge, and from previous posts)
I think those Germans might be onto something, look at the murder rates between the two countries, or the US and any coutry. Rather then let kids virtually kill each other (with arguably some spillover into the real world) let them watch soft porn. They'll be whacking off and not shooting each other.
Pretty smart, no?
"You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, The Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the US of arrogance, and Germany doesn't want to go to war."
This one went around last week. Apropos.
The reason according to Elke Monssen-Engberding, director of the Ministry for Family Affairs: 'It portrays war as the only way to resolve conflicts.'"
Did EA sell a prerelease to G.W.Bush?
So now it's EA I gotta blame, right?
1 Earth is warming, 2 It's us, 3 it's royally bad, 4 we need to take action NOW
Look on the bright side, you can be 12 years old and by beer and cigarettes, (no irony here) dont you just love the old continent.
Well maybe not in the UK but thats another story...
Germany, the country that started BOTH world wars, is complaining that a VIDEO GAME portrays war as the only solution?!
-------
"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
-- George Orwell
I don't advocate censorship, but what's interesting is that while the Germans restrict violent games, the Americans restrict games that portray sex. Try releasing a game in US stores that has people fucking, and it'll get censored just as surely as violent shit does in Deutschland.
I'm from Holland, I agree most wars cause more harm than good; but this is rediculous.
So free you are you got ... uncensored news about POWs ... pictures of so called collateral damages ... "delayed freedom of information acts" ... Patriot Acts I + II ... Ministry of Truth and Homeland Security aka Gestapo ... Detention camps for muslim americans ... free p0rn on TV ... children banned from school for their free speech t-shirts ... a land which does not sign the Un childrens carta ... PNAC ... religious zealots bashing roleplaying games like d&d ... Freedom Fries and Threat Level Orange!
... I am too here in europe
I guess you can really be happy
The best golfer is black,
France accuses the US of arrogance,
and Germany doesn't want to go to war!
Woopty Doo Basil, what does it all mean?!
I love how Germany pulls a facist tactic and all you idiots are complaining about George Bush. I'm not particularly fond of this war either, but you people make me sick. It's not the war at all, it's Bush that you protest and I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop pretended to protest the war and start marching with signs that are more honest, "We hate Bush."
And if we all cared about Iraqi civilians so much how about we all leave our cushy jobs, college studies, and homes and travel over there with some humanitarian aide. People in the USA who claim that they feel for the Iraqi people while sipping a latte from Starbucks make me sick.
because we learned ... you not
Granny Places Command & Conquer on Restricted List :-)
Gilad.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casua lties/index.html
I don't think you are right on this one buddy...
Constitutionally pacifist, ok, but in reality just by the amount of national pride in their "advanced military stuff" in the gulf right now will give you the idea that they want to be part of the action.
Partically I do understand some of the reasons. If north korea do lob a few nukes this way, Japan would be royally screwed. (N.K can't go anywhere else - say they take over the south, what, they will go against CHINA? fat chance)
However, being chinese, born in Nanjing no less, I can fully appreciate the concern other asian countries have over japan NOT arming itself. When Japan is armed, it has perfectly the reason to go conquer other places, because honestly Japan (the geographical features) really kind of suck. No natural resounces, tons of natural disasters, and no land for living (most habitable land is used to grow rice).
So, yes Japan is itching to get in on some action (why you think they are SUPPORTIVE of the US?) as a thing to prove that they need more military or somesuch.
But anyway; at least for a while longer, while the huge US presence is here, they don't have to worry too much about protecting themselves (and consequentially don't need to / have no excuse to arm). It would not be fun if the US one day withdraw their forces for some reason. Serious "shit hits the fan" would happen in this corner of the world.
Btw, Hiroshima and Nagasaki are still there. Nukes back then were not as powerful as today.
My life in the land of the rising sun.
Though I can't put into words why, at least, not right off the bat... something about how the constant playing of war games could eventually become a replacement behavior for learning how to have real conflict with people. Or, as one therapist friend of mine put it, it could prevent people from owning their violence.
Like with pornography: someone who looks at that stuff too much and from too young an age may never learn what real love and intimacy feel like. It's a real problem.
Perhaps that isn't the German gov't's perspective, but it feels like a good decision to me, for the above reasons. Games like that just insulate the players from the realities of war. Sure, it's just a game, I know, but can anyone give me a reason why I need yet another false portrayal of war these days (in addition to those of most American media outlets)?
Of course, they could just be placing controls on software made by an American company, but I don't know if the publisher is American. As someone else said, I think it will just draw attention to it and raise sales. Too bad.
"The cup... the drop... it's a YES!"
Hmmm.. The German as pacifists. Now that could have spared the world some trouble! Too little too late I say!
www.lonseidman.com
Motherfuck! Fly bitches when I walk!
It doesn't surprise me one bit. Remember that this is a country that cracks down on "hate" speech, although whatever hate means is up to the government. They have had a history of censorship in an effort to make their country better. It's absurd just not unexpected.
Then ban every FPS except System Shock and Deus Ex, every RTS, 80% RPG's...
In France we have a pretty fucked up ratings system, but we know the only reason we do is because no shopkeeper would ever abide to it. Doom III will probably be banned for minors, but you'll be able to buy it from any shop if you're over ten. And you so rightly should.
I'm an American living in Germany. I was listening to the radio on the way home from work the other day. The announcer was listing off the traffic jams and construction sites of the day and casually mentioned that they were defusing a bomb in a particular area, and that people who weren't directly involved should avoid the area.
This wasn't major news -- unexploded ordinance from WWII is still occasionally found and needs to be taken care of. With such ever present reminders of the horrors of war you begin to understand why the Germans are so utterly opposed to starting them these days.
Due to Germany, the european versions of Contra ended up with humans replaced by robots, and the games renamed to "Probotector"
I will never forgive them!
They should add a diplomatic phase to c&c. Only I you failed that you could go to war.
Are they also going to ban 90% of the rest of the games where conflict is the only option?
:-)
GTA3 will fall squarely into your 10% of 'good games' by that definition.
After all, you can earn megabucks by just being a taxi driver, and you can play as the police fighting evil on the streets
Oh, wait.. fighting evil in GTA3 involves conflict.. much like fighting evil in the real world. Ah.
mogorific carpentry experiments
Nice job Mr. Liberal, but Iraq was dodging UN resolutions for ten years before Bush got to the White House.
Of course, now we've invaded Iraq, we should get ready for an invasion of Israel.. a country which has dodged MORE UN resolution than Iraq!
The english version of the Al-Jazeera TV's website was online since Monday. The adress is:
http://english.aljazeera.net
I could see it on Thursday and now it is gone. Washington Post has a article about a hack attack. Apparently the name of the website does not resolve.
What i found very suspicious are these imposter sites:
http://www.aljazeerah.us/ and http://www.aljazeerah.info/
Only the latter has a little headline that the website is not connected in any way to Al-Jazeera TV.
These sites can be easily confused with the original site and it already happened.
Imagine something like foks.news in a arab country without a clear statement that it is not us media.
ps: I already submitted the story about the imposter sites but slashdot did not post it. That's why i am posting it here...
I'm quite surprised at the reaction of whiny liberal lefties that this Iraqi invasion is so bad.
We did EXACTLY THE SAME THING in the late 90's with Kosovo, and no-one was whining then! We were stopping Muslims from being killed! The UN did not approve of the NATO invasion then either! How many people whined about Serbian children getting bombed?
But now that the USA is threatened, rather than some cute ethnic minority, oh no we musn't defend ourselves.
mogorific carpentry experiments
Does anyone think that video games made Bush, Saddam Hussein, or bin Laden what they are today?
1) C&C: Intro starts with player flipping through TV channels on cable and then seeing a building blow up with a voice over about the Nod Terrorist Organisation.
War Against Terror: Begins with 24 hour coverage of the 9-11 attack.
2) C&C: Immediately after the intro you hear two conflicting voices and are forced to choose a side.
War Against Terror: "Let those who harbor terrorists know they and the terrorists themselves are our enemies, without distinction. America has the will and the resources to defeat you. We are a determined and rich nation with clever and resourceful people. We will also need and we demand the assistance of every government in the world to help us. Whoever does is our friend and whoever does not will be considered to be our enemy."
3) C&C: involves grey troops fighting in tall snowbound mountains, or sand coloured troops fighting in the deserts.
War Against Terror: Footage of Afghanistan mountain campaign, and desert footage of south-central iraq.
4) C&C: American side has one General Shepard who guides you through the missions, until he disappears for a while because the UN hates him.
War Against Terror: The CNN has Gen. Don Shepherd to guide you through the hunt for Bin Laden. Until the USA goes for unilateral action with it's coalition of the willing and the UN hates us.
5) C&C: All this bloodshed for a rare natural resource which promises untold power to whoever controls it.
War Against Terror: hmmm. you're right. Self Defense.
6) C&C: The Big Bad is an elusive terrorist (who may or may not have been killed in his underground lair when bombing made rocks fall on his head) called Kane.
War Against Terror: The Big Bad is an elusive terrorist (who may or may not have been killed in his underground lair when bombing made rocks fall on his head) called Osama.
7) C&C: New weapons every successful mission.
War Against Terror: MOAB. Stryker. SA80-A2.
8) C&C: We will use cleansing Nuclear Fire.
War Against Terror: Oh no. Just find the silver crate and get the hell out of there.
9) C&C: the sequel, red alert, has Kane controlling Stalin.
War Against Terror: "As a young man, Saddam Hussein admired Hitler's system of government. Stalin and his totalitarian model became Saddam's exemplars. Saddam tailored his system along Nazi and Stalinist lines, though it had a number of new features as well. In keeping with Nazi ideals, Iraq's Ba'th system had four main pillars: totalitarian ideology, single-party rule, a command economy (nominally socialist), and firm control over the media and the army."
10) more to come. remember: there are at least two endings, to promote better replay value.
You should have read a bit on these pages ... al jazeera means island and is a common term for the arab part of the world
this page is probably much older than the television's site
Just when you think people in europe couldnt get any more wussy.
HEY SCHRODUM IT"S A GAME!
I have to admit this, as a sick bastard, that seeing the Iraqi War start up again made me want to buy C&C Generals, so I did.
Now I can live my own battles, and kick Iraq's ass.
Sad, but true.
mogorific carpentry experiments
The US are the sole reason for the existence of terrorism. The way they try to control the world is just asking to get a slap in their face. And yes, I think Americans can only think of solutions in terms of warfare. They said the weapons inspections took too long, but it will take WAY longer before the Iraq region is stable again
France, Germany and Russia have a history of invasion as well as themselves being the aggressors.
The Germans know that the cause of WW2 was the outcome of WW1. OK, they (or rather the Kaiser and his military elite, the product of the conquest of the rest of the German states by Prussia) made WW1 into a pan-European conflict. But the result is that modern Germans are well placed to understand that aggression and invasion ultimately result in a cycle of violence unless something really intelligent is done afterwards. Like Marshall Aid.
They also know that there were many times before WW2 when Hitler could have been stopped. If the European states and the Soviet Union had pursued a policy of control and mutual support, beginning as soon as they realised the kind of state Germany had become (pretty obvious by the 1936 Olympics) Hitler could have been contained. But the states were divided among themselves. France and Britain had significant numbers of Nazi sympathisers, Italy had Mussolini, and the US thought Britain could do with someone taking it down a peg or two.
So I do not think the Germans are being at all inconsistent. They are actually learning from history, and Churchill's remark that jaw-jaw is better than war-war.
Restricting (not banning) access to mindless violence and seeking to promote more constructive engagement seems to me like a sensible thing for a government to do. But then I'm biased. In the 80s I worked for a company that was being unofficially urged by the Government to sell arms to our friend in Iraq, Saddam. He was the same homicidal lunatic then. And instead of containing him, our governments built him up. I think the Germans have a point, and that people who try and shout them down are doing it because they are afraid of the truth they might hear.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
This is not a ban, it is a restriction that forbids advertising and sale to people under 18 - others can purchase it legally. Same things apply to alcohol, cigarettes, weapons etc. It may seem stupid to you to restrict the sale of a computer game, but then, that's the difference in views. It seems strange to us, too, that you can't officially get a beer in all US states if you're not 21 but steer a car at 16.
I think rules like that are stupid in general, but they're certainly not the worst problem.
BTW youngsters here tend to laugh at that list. They get any game they want whenever they want, SSEY HAFF VAYS hahaa
I believe WWII should have also taught some lessons about appeasement and the consequences of ignoring problems until they become too difficult to handle alone. Peace is not defined simply by the abscence of war.
ich muß mehr Kuhglocke haben
What's next, Chess???
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
[John Cleese]
don't mention the war!!!!
The real reason for banning the game is of cause that terrorists are portrayed as (surprise!) muslim arabs.
In every conflict germany has consistently cited with the side that want to kill the jews. I guess they want to see their job finished.
That's right! Killing isn't the only way to resolve conflicts. Now, if the game allowed you to take your opponenets and march them off to the gas chamber rather than just shooting them that would be OK in Germany.
Chess must be also in Restricted List, because, it is after all - a War Game, very simplified in details though, but still it is.
This game is on the restricted list in Germany since the 28 of February as you can read here.
I think I remember Turkey getting into trouble with the EU after banning *all* computer games and the EU felt they were not living up to their free trade obligation to other EU nations.
Maybe an 18+ rating was appropriate, we don't have a R game rating here (Australia) and so games that they feel are too violent/sexual for MA are banned. They were only allowed to release a tuned down version of GTA3.
They just chose their side and fight for the arabs as best they currently can.
Because the Provos in Ireland are so upset about American hegemonistic tendencies that it's encouraged them to rise up and commit acts of terror, right? Ditto the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Elan, the Basque nationalists, the PKK in Turkey, the New People's Army in the Phillipines, the Zapatistas in Chiapas State, and probably several others I've never heard of.
You "think Americans can only think of solutions in terms of warfare" because that's what grabs headlines. Brinksmanship is far more interesting on the world stage than a civil trade negotiation. Please note that when the Chinese were essentially holding U.S. Navy personnel hostage, that America did not go to war. Please note also that we are acting currently to enforce UN Security Council resolutions (most of them unanimous, if memory serves) that have been on the books for an even dozen years. Simply because some other countries object to the things they agreed to in the past doesn't mean our will must waver now.
When you make obviously inflammatory blanket statements that have no basis in fact whatsofuckingever, expect to get them thrown back in your face. Oh, and as for your statement about Americans trying to control the world, I leave you with a quote from Colin Powell:
They that would sacrifice their
PostBlock(tm) device, & other whoreabull 'restrictions".
lookout bullow. the phonIE bullonly payper liesense hostage ransom stock markup bullshipping industrIE, is dissolving into brand gnu coolapps.
""The drear horror of American life can be traced to two damnable roots, or perhaps it is only one root; 1.-- The loss of all distinctions between public and private affairs. 2.-- The tendancy to mess into other people's affairs before establishing order in one's own affairs and in one's thought. To which one might add the lack in America of any habit of connecting or correlating any act or thought to any main principle whatsoever; the ineffable rudderlessness of that people. The principle og good is enunciated by Confucius; it consist of establishing order within oneself. This order of harmony spreads by a sort of contagion without specific effort. The principle of evil consists in messing with other people's affairs. Against this principle of evil, no adequate precaution is taken by Christianity, Moslemism, Judaism, nor, so far as I know, by any monotheistic religion. Many 'mystics' do not even aim at the principle of good; they seek merely establishment of parasitic relationship with the unknown." (Ezra Pound, The exile, no. 2, p.35)"
increasing the frequency of consultation with yOUR creator, has been shown to cause lucidity, despite a constant barrage of Godless bogus ?pr? hypenosys(tm) being spewn onto US.
good work there J., voting with yOUR wallets, that is.
Does this also mean that advertising and public displays of US government is also banned?
"There is a terrorist behind every bush"
Command and Conquer Generals was put on the restricted list on February 28th, so over a month ago temporarily, meaning it had to be treated like a game on the list.
On the 6th March it was put on the index.
'It portrays war as the only way to resolve conflicts.'
Somehow, I don't think that "Concede and Compromise" would be a big seller.
China banned this game long back.
Find a job you like and you will never work a day in your life.
What is the point? The fact that there is a minor war going on? That the decision to put the game on index in such times does not appear to be independant?
Better say that you cannot understand this decision, but for those who are looking for the game in shops, might have to ask for it.
Have fun! Iraq will be liberated, it is not really a war - more like "some" resistance by the local millitary - and George W. Bush is an overconfident idiot or maybe has just some damn good advisors.
Sven
Hmmm, I guess the German people do not have the same guarantees of free speech as we do in the US.
No one got beat up more often than the mimes of the old west!
Germany bans something because it glorifies war
What inconsistency do you find in the fact that people which supported Hitler now support Saddan Hussein?
No change there. All is normal.
We should stop appeasing those Americans before they get too powerful and take over the world. Oh wait, they already are...
Probably not. The German "law for the protection of minors" (both the existing law and the new law, which will be in force from next month on) forbids not only selling the restricted media to minors, but also advertising or even mail order selling (no matter to whom). Furthermore shops who offer restricted media have to do this in a special adult-only area.
While advertising will not be the main problem (the webservers of the company are out of reach of the German government anyway), the lack of specialized distribution channels will be a problem.
The porn industrie has such channels (sex shops, cinemas, video stores), but they are not really useable for computer games, I would think.
What really surprises me is that everybody seems to have forgotten Vietnam. It is such an overused phrase "those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it" but I've never seen this phrase more applicable than now.
It seems like every 50 years or so, half or more than half of Europe goes off the deep end. Pathetic.
Well, how about this theory. Command and conquer is a cultural text. people play it. enjoy it. think about it in the off season. It came out in the late 90s. (dos version released in 1995).
p -the-mideast's-ass thing?
The thing is, people played this game and ate it up. Everybody loved it.
Now in a democracy there's a lot of showmanship to being a leader. Right down to having the right mix of races in the faces behind you when you speak. you have to understand what the public wants and give it to them to stay in power.
I'm not saying that war would have been prevented by banning certain video games. I think that wars of some kind were inevitable, ever since the british empire colonised the mid east. Heck, the region was probably screwed since the Ottoman Empire conquered the Kurds and the Assyrians. Not to mention what the sons of Isaac and Ishmael did to each other. (Actually I think that the whole thing went wrong Cain got annoyed... or maybe before that even with like, the saber toothed tigers and prehumanity fighting it out.)
But I am saying that popular culture shapes the kind of wars that are just palatable to us. I think it's no accident that the war is balanced 50:50 for and against.
Imagine if we had waited for the UN and they granted us a resolution to resolve the whole oilfield/WMD/who-gets-to-keep-their-fist-firmly-u
>60% approval ratings = suicide bombings.
Now that we're in this war, and pissed off most of the world, we have to win it. I am firmly in support of our troops who are dying defending our way of life, no matter how obscenely exessive our way of life may be.
At the same time, honesty dictates that I say this war is a crime.
So let's just hope that this thing doesn't drag out and end up with us both getting conscripted on one side or another.
Because I will kill for my country, right or wrong.
some of the German politicians are forgetting their own history
I was there from 1974-1977 in the army and I sure that no one there is forgetting their history, Working actively to erase all traces of it yes, but forgetting no. The barracks that I lived in still had swatika's over the doors, other buildings displayed damage from shells fired at them durring WWII. There was a gentle but constant pressure on the US to remove these signs of german history. If you mentioned to a german that you had toured one of the concentration camps their response was usualy along the lines of "why would you want to do something like that for?"
Actualy In light of recent events like the Berlin wall coming down, the fall of the Soviet Union and reunification of the two Germanies; augmented by the rise of the EU, I think that it's time for the US to re-evaluated it's role in the world and especialy NATO. I'm sure that the EU would be able to step up to the plate and run their own affairs. The EU is roughly equivalnt to the US in size and populations, if there is any defense needs that they have and can't fullfill themselves, we're only an ocean away just call. Hell actualy we could defend France remotely, we have enough ICBM's doing nothing that we could make invading France suicide.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
If losing a war is what it takes to become wise about the horrors of war and the available pacifistic alternatives, I hope that the US/UK alliance loses (or at least not wins) this war.
Wrong,
They have to win this war but it has to come at a high price. Only then the blood thirst is hopefully stilled.
Look at it this way. The US after 9/11 acted like Terror is something that has never happened to the world before, the fight wars like you can only win them, and even when they lost (Vietnam) the full impact really never came home.
No, the US has to win it because at the end of the loosing in Iraq would be worse, for the US and the world, but it has to come at a high price, one that is felt at home as well.
If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
and in related news,
France, today, promptly surrendered to EA after seeing c&c.
More at 11.
I'm an old fart, I know, but I was idealistic in my youth, and tried negotiating my way through Galaga, Galaxians and Space Invaders. It's just doesn't work, they don't listen. The more you shoot, the more waves of suicide bombers attack you.
"Let's talk about our differences sensibly you guys. No! Wait! What are you shooting at me for? I'm just going to have to kill you! [blat][blat][blat] [POW] This slaughter cannot lead to anything good. Please, let's just sit down at the table and discuss our differences like normal, sane, NO! NO! [blat][blat][blat] [POW] Look what you made me do!"
"It's easier to get into something than to get out of it" - Rumsfeld
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more, Or close the wall up with our American dead!
12?
In Germany it's 16 for both and 18 for hard liquor.
"Sim United Nations"
Includes free copy of "Command and Conquer" for use when finished playing!
...coming from them.
"If you have done 6 impossible things this morning, why not round it off with breakfast at Milliways" -- hhgg
They theorize that it was placed on the list because of the conflict between Germany and the USA...and it kind a makes sense...a stupid type of sense, true, but sense none the less.
ttyl
Farrell
CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
bitch..
its a waste of resources. muahahahaaha. seriously i think germania has totally overreacted as always when anything relating to war is involved. its unfortunate hitler is still affecting things in our times.
I know you are psychotic, but please make an effort.
I can't believe that so many so-called 'educated' people have deluded themselves into believing that the evil Republicans have dragged us into the war solely to steal SUV juice. That is, quite frankly, ridiculous and offensive in the worst possible way. It insults the intelligence of many. It is really very obvious what we are really going to "liberate" from Iraq.
We are going to go to Iraq for sand. I know that might sound a little revelatory, but if you think about it for more than a few seconds the reasons become obvious. Our civilization is so technologically advanced that we are completely reliant on microchips. And what are microchips made from? Any computer science major will be able to tell you that the fundamental element in the manufacture of microchips is silicon. Chips are very small, but when you are making and using billions of them a year then that amount of silicon adds up. And where are we going to get silicon? From sand, obviously. But we can't get sand from our own countries, can we?
If we did so then we would cause massive swathes of coastal erosion and a large ecological disaster. The tourist industry of the west and east coasts of North America and the south of the UK would be obliterated, stripped from the land in months, perhaps weeks!
It is obvious for all right thinking people to see that the only win-win solution to this problem is to take the sand from Iraq. We only have two possibilities: North Africa and the Middle East. Unfortunately, the North Africans don't have any nations which want us to invade them and is an oasis of peace compared to the Middle East. The Middle East is so unstable that no one will notice one more small invasion for something like sand. Besides, the Iraqis will benefit too. After we take away their sand their deserts will be gone, leaving behind a lush botanical paradise.
The evil Republicans would have you believe differently and that we must 'liberate' as much oil as we possibly can from this poor underpriveliged country. They only say this so they can run their miniature 18 wheelers, "sports utility vehicles" and lubricate their gun barrels. They have no justification for stealing oil from Iraq, when said country could use it itself to develop itself and become another benevolent world power. This is why the war must go on, but not for oil, as President Bush and his incompetent cronies would have you believe, but for a few trillion crystals of silicon dioxide. Thank you for your attention.
insert 'surrender is an option' joke here
Germany and Japan may be the two countries who suffered most under World War II. At the same time, it may also be the two countries that peace brought the greatest prosperity.
I think it is a small wonder that the population of these countries are more heeart-felt anti-war than UK or USA who has not suffered the trauma of occupation, nor had their cities anihilated by enemy bombs.
I understand Hitler was addicted to Nintendo's 1-bit game console.
What is strange is not German pascifism, but the American surprise by German pascifism.
A Danish journalist in the US explained it like this: "If you go into an American bookstore, you will find rows of books about the second world war, but only a few volumes about Germany post-WWII." I.e. American perception of Germany is still totally dominated by WWII.
jerk.
I know you are psychotic, but please make an effort.
And in other news: Playboy will also be put on the restricted list because it displays sex as the only way to have fun...
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
People living in Germany might want to check out this page: Initiative gegen die Indizierung von Computerspielen
It's a website about some people who want to bring the issue of banning these games in Germany to the EU courts, because it restricts free trading between EU countries.
Have a look at it, these guys really need your support!
Two Worlds - One Sun [Spirit]
Last time I was in Germany, I played the german version of C&C Red Alert. It didn't have any humans in it. All the infantry had been replaced by cyborgs / androids, which died in an oily puddle, rather than a bloody puddle. This change had been made in order to promote the idea that killing people was bad, due to the same legislation that has caused the current ban. Grand Theft Auto, on the other hand, was displayed in shop windows. Apparently killing civilians is okay, it's just killing soldiers that's bad...
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
"The reason according to Elke Monssen-Engberding, director of the Ministry for Family Affairs: 'It portrays war as the only way to resolve conflicts.'""
Gee, just like WWi and WWII (both started by Germans over conflicts)? Nice, real nice. Like the pot calling the kettle black.
The reason according to Elke Monssen-Engberding, director of the Ministry for Family Affairs: 'It portrays war as the only way to resolve conflicts.'"
1.That's how americans solve conflicts
2.That's OOOOOOOOOOOLD news (both things) the put it on the restricted list when it came about about 2 months ago...
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
Should this post have the foot, "laugh, it's funny" icon? Or perhaps we need a new one, a pointing hand for "point and laugh, their stupid".
Isn't that war does? Help resolve conflicts with people who choose to hurt others? What a bunch of idiots...
The Americans encouraged the FLQ to launch terrorist attacks in Canada?
;)
No, the FLQ couldn't afford their prices. Of course Iraq is learning that the long run price of buying US weapons is very high indeed
Bullshit Censorship. Then again, that censor list also includes an Adolf Hitler game...
.......no terrorists were killed in Afghanistan but a few were born. Four terrorists for ever dead Iraqi child. Iraqi nationalists coming from muslim homes..its getting worse too. And my mom said that they wanted us there! The same TV station that told her that last night, showed a man who said what I've been saying all along, they dont like him, but they dont like the US military either. Also, a people will only obey a tyrant if they fear another enemy more. He is the tyrant, we are the other enemy. Bush is the tyrant, the terrorists are the other enemy.
About this war,
"I feel it is my duty to look at the porn that kids download before I delete it, to be sure what it is."--School Admin
homo. There's nothing wrong with being American, but the ignorance and arrogance of many Americans is pissing me off. Go screw yourself.
I don't know why you are all bashing Bush on the war, it was Al Gore who invented war after all.
US Army has released an updated version of tax-money-sponsored first-person shooter to increase general public opinion of warfare among the young generation.
Don't ask me what's worse - government actively working on popularizing war, or taking computer games off the shelves for political reasons.
Eh, Germany is just sad that with the latest C&C they arent part of it, this wouldnt have happened if they'd been given a role like before. They coulda been the elite drunken guy that run screaming from the burning buildings of the GLA.
Well, if you can think of a better way than war to achieve global domination then I'd like to hear it!
Bah. The only thing this game will do to kids is make them sit in front of the computer/console longer and develop blood clots in their legs.
Freakin' kids wouldn't fight a war if it came marching into their town. They'd roll over like the french.
-- Liberalism is a mental disorder.
In Soviet Germany.... C&C:Generals restricts j00!
********************
why are all my comments moderated up/down?
... how to mod insightfull flamebait?
Show humor who's boss!
Jack Valenti and the MPAA are to technology as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone
The reason according to Elke Monssen-Engberding, director of the Ministry for Family Affairs: 'It portrays war as the only way to resolve conflicts.'"
Interesting, considering that WWII Germany presented an actual real-life situation where all-out war was clearly the only way to solve the conflict.
Oh, but I forgot...
U.S. is BAD, Germany is GOOD.
"left-wing censorship" seems to be the common respone here; while that is exactly what it is, let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill. after all, it's just a game. have we become so immature and petty that the placing of a game under a counter rather than on the shelf is just cause to flame an entire nation? it's not like they're censoring media, a crime of which the United States is becoming increasingly more guilty. My second favorite news media source was shut down 2 days ago because of its opposition to the war on iraq. Lets get our priorities straight, people.
Nobody here wants this censorship, but we have no choice - our government is responsible for this sh*t. Only some weeks after the game was out, the sellers/shops had to "hide" it. The kids that were fast enough to buy it are happy now ;) Thats the same thing with every new bloody 3d arcade shooter (like unreal tournament 2003) Strange : CaC Generals is the first realtime strategic game that was moved on the restricted list. But also the other command and conquer-games were censored (no blood, no humans- only bots). In germany are most people against this censorship-system, but nothing has changed yet :(
PS: CaC Generals roxx!
greetz from germany (sorry for my bad english)
Synopsis of some of the posts on this site:
/.?
Somebody dared to limit sales of US software in their liberal democracy!
How dare any other country excericise their right to do what they want within their own borders. They only banned it because they hate Americans and because they are all a bunch of Nazis. And I hate the French. Let's nuke them. God bless America the home of the free! We have never supported any terrorists - only freedom fighters like in Northern Ireland.
What has happened to
How many of us would support a version of a flight simulator where you could fly planes into the WTC towers?
"Freedom Fries" are just a reverse engineering scheme to get around French DRM methods and avoid payment of royalites for "French Fries".
Wars are not caused by dictators, or greed, or oppression, or breaking of treaties. They are caused by poor problem solving skills picked up from the playing of real time strategy games by children. Kudos to the german government. You have made a brave stand for peace in these troubled times.
Jack Valenti and the MPAA are to technology as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone
Iraq beat us to it, but im sure after we beat Iraq the french will fold, especially when not given a part in the re-building, I mean they will still want the oil contracts they probably secretely signed with Iraq, except in this case they will have to get them from our Vice Presidents Oil Company (i mean erm he doesnt have any vested interest in the company anymore... erm ya right)
If you don't vote, you don't matter, so don't waste your time telling me your opinion
The only terrorist in canada are the canadian alliance party!!! Mange de la marde fasciste!
Bombing for peace is like fucking for virginity!
We already did. And we fixed their government and set them free. Now look how well they have done.
Ingrates.
sorry to get on my soapbox, and I know I've already said this here, but I want to know if anybody else has noticed this.
Does anyone think that video games made Bush, Saddam Hussein, or bin Laden what they are today?
1) C&C: Intro starts with player flipping through TV channels on cable and then seeing a building blow up with a voice over about the Nod Terrorist Organisation.
War Against Terror: Begins with 24 hour coverage of the 9-11 attack.
2) C&C: Immediately after the intro you hear two conflicting voices and are forced to choose a side.
War Against Terror: "Let those who harbor terrorists know they and the terrorists themselves are our enemies, without distinction. America has the will and the resources to defeat you. We are a determined and rich nation with clever and resourceful people. We will also need and we demand the assistance of every government in the world to help us. Whoever does is our friend and whoever does not will be considered to be our enemy."
3) C&C: involves grey troops fighting in tall snowbound mountains, or sand coloured troops fighting in the deserts.
War Against Terror: Footage of Afghanistan mountain campaign, and desert footage of south-central iraq.
4) C&C: American side has one General Shepard who guides you through the missions, until he disappears for a while because the UN hates him.
War Against Terror: The CNN has Gen. Don Shepherd to guide you through the hunt for Bin Laden. Until the USA goes for unilateral action with its coalition of the willing and the world hates us.
5) C&C: All this bloodshed for a rare natural resource which promises untold power to whoever controls it.
War Against Terror: hmmm. you're right. Self Defense.
6) C&C: The Big Bad is an elusive terrorist (who may or may not have been killed in his underground lair when bombing made rocks fall on his head) called Kane.
War Against Terror: The Big Bad is an elusive terrorist (who may or may not have been killed in his underground lair when bombing made rocks fall on his head) called Osama.
7) C&C: New weapons every successful mission.
War Against Terror: MOAB. Stryker. SA80-A2.
8) C&C: We will use cleansing Nuclear Fire.
War Against Terror: Oh no. Just find the silver crate and get the hell out of there.
9) C&C: the sequel, red alert, has Kane controlling Stalin.
War Against Terror: "As a young man, Saddam Hussein admired Hitler's system of government. Stalin and his totalitarian model became Saddam's exemplars. Saddam tailored his system along Nazi and Stalinist lines, though it had a number of new features as well. In keeping with Nazi ideals, Iraq's Ba'th system had four main pillars: totalitarian ideology, single-party rule, a command economy (nominally socialist), and firm control over the media and the army."
10) more to come. remember: there are at least two endings, to promote better replay value.
I believe that was a war between two Democracies. Granted, they spawned from the same source, but i am pretty sure they were democratically elected capitalist nations. I'm no history major, but it's just one example I can think of.
This.
For the historically challenged, the US national symbol of freedom was donated by France. I'd expect the US government to STFU their idiot boycott, or give the monument back to the French.
Welcome to the Nanny State.
--sdem
Chess is a war game where the only way to 'resolve' your differences is to kill the other leader (aka Der Konig).
There are two types of people in this world, those with loaded guns, and those who dig. You dig. 001010011 001110101 00
None of which makes it worth banning, of course. Generals marketed itself on a morally retarded militaristic worldview that's definitely on the rise in this country. But censoring never made anything go away.
g
For those who love to idolize the Muslim world, don't forget slavery was one of their big business up into recent times. (Still is in some areas) That was a nice little institution they gave to the world. Not quite the English/US invention history revisionists would have everyone believe.
politicians here want violent games to be treated like drugs... beacuse, well, they are drugs.
1. The "diplomat" is a neutral piece. To underscore this fact, it is not colored white or black, but rather blue, white, red.
2. The "diplomat" is never placed on the board. It cannot move and can have no ultimate effect on the outcome of the game.
3. The "diplomat" acts at the beginning of white's turn. The effect of the diplomat is to prevent white from moving any pieces.
4. Each time the "diplomat" acts, black gains an additional pawn, which may be placed on the board at the player's discretion.
5. Each time black receives a new pawn this way, the "diplomat" receives several million dollars from black, which it can stash in secret accounts to use to conduct it's "diplomacy" in other parts of the world. The "diplomat" may buy and keep other pieces of its own, which it may insert into other games without asking anyone's permission.
This sequence continues until white completely ignores the "diplomat" and begins moving pieces over the diplomats protestations.
We checked the hospital- there it was! The nuclear bomb plant and chemical weapons plant and all the heads of those POW's we were looking for. Never mind. We just didn't think to look there 'cause it had a big red cross on the roof and had signs on the door saying "Migraine suffering clinic - please do not bomb".
Those crazy NOD!
"CNet is reporting that Germany has placed the GOP's newest Commander in Chief game 'George W. Bush' on its restricted list, which means he may not be advertised or displayed on shelves although he may be kept under store counters and access to him would be allowed only to adults. The reason according to Elke Monssen-Engberding, director of the Ministry for Family Affairs: 'He portrays war as the only way to resolve conflicts.'"
read the bunni comic
ITYM "Long live those American Nazis!"
"may not be advertised or displayed on shelves" this part is plain stupid, but don't think it can't happen in the USA or other EU countries. We need to defend freedom, free speech, expression, etc. This is the job of all people, not just left, right, middle, libertarian, etc. get a grip it is a game, deal with it. What is wrong with the generation before my generation X? Why can't they relax just a little bit?
Onward to the Aether Sphere!
I'd be embarrassed too if my parents, grandparents and great-grandparents generations were responsible for Hitler and two world wars, but isn't this over-compensating just a bit?
Civilization is doomed to a fifty to one hundred year cycle of terrible wars with smaller regional conflicts every ten years. Our species is burdened with short life spans and a dreadful willingness to blindly ignore the wisdom of those who preceeded us.
The mixed message Germany is sending to it's youth: War is bloodless, and the military is evil.
History has been a long and winding highway littered with the wreckage of civilizations led by madmen bent on conquest. They were put down by strong, peaceful democracies.
You cannot appease dictators. People who attain and hold power through strength, fear and intimidation only respect equal or greater strength and the resolve to apply it.
So long as the earth is covered by hundreds of unique cultures and sovereign countries competing for fixed resources there will be the need for a strong military. Regrettably, as those resources are taxed by a burgeoning population the worst aspects of human nature will be on display.
Germans cannot stick their heads in the sand. The world is not, and never will be a utopian conflict-free society. Diplomacy will never solve *all* problems. It's far too easy to sit on the sidelines of world politics and criticize the United States for taking the military initiative.
Germanic tribesmen had an old saying: Never have by sweat and work what you can take by sword. Historically speaking, there is only one country on earth that's had the power of ancient Rome without the expansionist policies. One that has fought wars on principle and not occupied, expanded or enslaved. That country is not Germany.
The German government's video game policy is being determined by the continuing shame and knee-jerk reaction to World War II and Gerhard Schroeder's pandering to public opinion polls.
Put blood in your video games, Germany. Show violent war movies. Let your youth understand the consequences. Or forget all too soon how horrible it really is. That is truely what's dangerous.
THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK.
Hey what is this, the 1940's? German people today have nothing to do with what happened back then so you can't (and shouldn't) go calling them names.
Anyhow we're talking about a computer game here, that sort of ignorant hate-mongering is rather out of place.
Saying "US does it too" should be an attempt at a fact. Facts are very important but only if kept in proper context. Wielding the "fact" as a weapon to merely keep others at bay is rather pathetic. Using it as a justification merely proves that you are a hypocrit. A better way is to say, "Yes this is indeed bad, since the US government has done this and that then we should also focus our energies there as well."
German Bundestag has adopted a resolution to change the name of Germany to New France. Stating their newfound pacifism, they thought it only logical. More details to come...
When you consider how badly American fries are made, it's probably a good thing that they've been renamed.
...The Sims causes introverts to become socialites.
yeah. right.
I do security
>Just because someone else broke the rules doesn't make it ok for you to break them too.
check...
nosig today
Hi, Im from germany.
I don't think that this decision has something to do with the War in Iraq or the differences between US and Germany. In times like these we should not misinterpret every suitable news.
Regards
Christof.
Funnily enough, it was an open secret that this administration wanted war with Iraq, UN resolutions or no UN resolutions. It appears that one of Rumsfeld's first suggestions on the "war on terror" was the invasion of Iraq. Strange, that.
Oh, and as far as the murder of innocent Iraqis were concerned - most of them actually took place at two times; firstly, during the real first "Gulf War" - that between Iraq and Iran (where, incidentally, the US reaction was to say very little and sell Iraq more weapons - it was then "on side", as the first "war of aggression" of which you speak had US support). Secondly, when the US realised that Saddam's regime kept Iraq together, Saddam or no Saddam (1991); thus we see Republican Guard units being allowed through US lines to suppress uprisings in the south of Iraq - uprisings of people who had rebelled against this regime, with US support that turned out to be mostly of the words-only kind.
Incidentally, one of the main reasons that the UN inspectors were kicked out of Iraq all those years ago was to do with the US spying operation that effectively took it over; read up about Scott Ritter sometime.
- All Indians were plains indiansAll Indians where of the "only hunt what is necessary and use all the buffalo" varietyAll Indians where peaceful and enlightened people who lived in perfect civilized harmony before the evil Europeans (whites) came over.Indian tribes did not slaughter and enslave each otherRape was not a common tactic against children, women and even little boysOnly the white Europeans dishonored aggreements and treaties (hint: when you side with the enemy in multiple wars after promising support, then don't expect earlier and thus now invalidated treaties to stand up)Indians never mass murdered stock and only kept a very small percentage of the mass for food and utility
I think, like any culture there are many good things to learn from them. However, remember that it is said that humans learn more from failures of ourselves and others than in the successes. If we paint an unrealistic picture of history because it suits our political agenda of hate mongering or just because we are talking monkeys then we only hurt ourselves and the rest of humanity. Human history should be viewed completely, warts and all: only then will we admit our short comings and have a chance to grow. Liberalism is the enemy of all attempts at peace, liberty, prosperity and enlightenment.It's a strategy game...geeezz
What, are they going to ban chess because you can't talk your way into a win?
While we are about it, let us not forget the eighteen million Russians who died *fighting* the enemy, or the eight million allied soldiers who also died *fighting* the axis forces, rather than volunteering for camps.
I've heard a lot about censorship in Germany,
the U.S. and Australia lately. I wonder what
country censors the least. Holland, perhaps?
Maybe it would work well to let individuals
think for themselves.
Banning a game because they lost their battle in the UN is pathetic.
Free speech is getting expensive...
US:
Founded by ignorant, religious extremists who thought sex was evil and were extremely self-righteous.
No change there then... except now millions of them get to spout self-righteous attacks on other nations on line.
I'm not German or French but I find many of the "patriotic" comments on these pages offensive. Do any of you understand the diference between patriotism and nationalism? Do you understand that you seem to be crossing into the second category?
After all, this game might encourage people to strategically send troops into battle when they can't resolve a conflict.
Thus the further proof of the pussification of Europe.
m.kelley
life is like a freeway, if you don't look you could miss it.
Gerhard Schroder: See guys? We can master the art of mindless idealism and nauseating political correctness and forget about our past of fascism and genocide. Now all of our pretty children smile and love each other because they play healthy video games.
Assistant:Sir, von of ze children iz not schmiling...I think he has been playing das "Grand Theft Auto."
Schroder: Vat! Ze children must schmile! YOU VILL SCHMILE!
Child cries...
Schroder: I see. You vant to be deeeficult. Herr Assistant, bring zu me mein tools...
Schroder (grinning): Now you vill schmile...
Child: Aaaahhhh! Das schmertzt! Bitte tot mich nicht!
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
wonder what they think of BF1942? Wilcommen sie auf Deutchland! Where the only game our government lets us play is the Sims! My question: why is it the computer gaming industry that suffers when two nations don't see eye to eye? The German politicians are probably just mad because Gdub kicked their asses at C&C:G.
Get Virtual.
Many, if not most, computer games are about violence without being on this index.
Maybe there's just too much blood in this game, if they reduce it, it may be allowed for children again.
There are some games (e.g., I think "Giants") that have replaced red blood by green blood-> after that, children were allowed to buy it.
Strange? Yes, German government is quite strict with images of violence-- like the American government is with sex. No tits (or "worse things") on American TV screens, not too much blood on German computer screens.
It's up to you to decide which influence is worse for children.
Please, don't compare PC games with reality. I have no problem with violence in games but in real life I prefer no blood being shed.
I don't need a signature.
The US government fails to understand that anti-Americanism (sometimes causing terror, like 11-9) is caused directly by their arrogance and militarism.
'It portrays war as the only way to resolve conflict'
:
In the intro they have somebody say:
"In the modern world, great leaders resolve conflicts with words, words like
Scud Luncher
Carpet bombing
Tomahawk missiles "
The game is pretty fun to play if it wouldn't crash all the time and reboot my system because my video card was a ATI Radeon 7200 and they can't make the game not crash on anything lesser then a 7500.
C&C series has always been a a very fascist game. Even fans of the series seem to not like very much Generals.
Althoug I not think banning games is a good thing, I remember germany banning some kind of board game when the objetive is to put your 6M j3w5 in the gas chamber. Of course then, everyone agreed that's the right aproach...
The ambientation of C&C lacks of anything than can reduce the presumption of that WAR (portrayed in a realistic and serious way in the game, without a minor concesion to humor, compassion, etc.) is a wonderfull thing.
Finally, USA readers, old europe has been, actually, BOMBED, really. Not like in the movies. You know, that's when the burning bodys are real, etc. Actually, the "european theater" as strategist used to call our territory are more sensitive to people being bombed...
Well put.
Germany couldn't possibly have anything to teach the US about their mistakes. Better to let crash and burn at this point than to become the next on the list of enemy states.
Hammer of Truth
i thought doom was already nazi doom! thanks banned games list!
i just climb trees, and look for rhythm everywhere.
'It portrays war as the only way to resolve conflicts.'
Are you serious about this? Are the Germans really turning into such huge pussies?
Jesus Christ, it's a video game. What a crock of shit.
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
.. copies of Microsoft's newest game "Age of Diplomacy" have been selling in record numbers.
Live web cams
...war isn't the only way to resolve conflicts-- you can always set up death camps for the orderly disposal of people you don't like. That way, all the real estate stays intact (well, except for the synagogues). I guess their problem is that the game has no 'genocide' feature.
What a sad day. Germany is finally falling to the Political Correctness movement. In addition, they are using games to "show" everyone how high their morals are since they spoke out against the Iraq conflict a few weeks ago. After all, now that they stood on their soapbox, they have to show everyone that they aren't hypocrits, or anything like that, by making such stupid motions as this. To me, it only makes them look like fools.
yes, but only we in Africa are liberal enough to wholeheartedly support violent sex!
This is standard stuff from a government that has truly become a joke. Let's not all pretend that the Germans are some how so altruistic. There's still are large segment of the population that embraces Nazi ideals afterall. If you've never lived in Germany, you would never know. Any German that says otherwise, is ashamed and avoiding the truth. This is simply about a ridiculous government imposing its supposed higher morality. If you don't live there, who cares. The US economy doesn't need Germany. Still, I'm sure the restricted games make up the majority of the best sellers.
Seriously, I think some of you out there will continue searching for the 'truth' regardless of it's proximity to you.
Stockpiling weapons in schools and hospitals is bad enough - the chemical suits should give a further clue. Clearly, we're not dealing with nice people here. Why is it so hard to understand the intentions of the current Iraqi leadership? Why would they lie about this stuff so strenuously? And what will all of you say when the WMD is found (and it will be eventually). What? That WE planted it? Thought that's what you'd say.
Drop your politics and open your eyes. This intellectual dishonesty stuff it really irritating.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, The Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the US of arrogance, and GERMANY DOESN'T WANT TO GO TO WAR.
"You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, The Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the US of arrogance, and Germany doesn't want to go to war."
Tell me what you believe...I'll tell you what you should see.
The last thing I need is some government agency deciding what is best for me.
There's so little difference between politics and jihad lately...
I'm pretty sure they can't do that. Said act would violate the United States' patent on Absurdity and may even tread onto our long-standing patent on Stupidity.
Seriously, come on! This is f'ing stupid. The fact that we enjoy games of violence is a symptom, not a cause, of our violent tendencies as a species. This is yet another way for politicians and policy-makers to pretend that they've struck a blow for humanity, when all they've really done is further bury a problem that needs to be addressed.
-Tom
'It portrays war as the only way to resolve conflicts.'
Thank god. We can finally get rid of chess too.
Even if it is really just based on that musical, it's still a game that portrays war as the only way to resolve your conflicts. And those horseys moved in weird ways - clearly concealing some kind of weapons program. AND... [the list is long, can you tell?] it allows you to knock over (surrender) your leadership to avoid the destruction of your armies - Bush clearly based his whole pre-war strategy on the evil game.
This must truly be the end when the German government counsels against war... but even virtual conflict? C'mon people...get a grip.
Gonzo
"We can stand here like the French, or we can do something" - M. Simpson
eunuch n.
1. A castrated man employed as a harem attendant or as a functionary in certain Asian courts.
2. A man or boy whose testes are nonfunctioning or have been removed.
3. Informal. An ineffectual, powerless, or unmasculine man.
Goddam hippies.
So what ? American's killed millions of people too. To name two examples: The indians, vietnam. The difference is, nobody givePkwOÁÚe¾,Ü;"-0D
And don't forget: In this moment, the USA have their soldiers in Irak, they commenced a war. So shut up !
Since my new Sims expansion pack, "Sims: The Sims Go U.N.", has just gone gold, I should be raking in the bucks in Germany.
In this expansion pack you guide your Sims through a model UN, allowing you to bicker and argue to your heart's content without actually doing anything productive!
Madman building power in the middle east? Lets give him a little time to comply to your resolutions, it worked with that Hitler guy, didn't it?
now i have to go and buy the game to see what these wise leaders made their conclusions on. i hate being driven by a marketing model in which i have no say in its outcome. ( other than to decide on paper, or plastic).
War solved slavery and facism.
So... war as the ONLY way to solve problems? Do you have to go through (and ignore) the UN?
Still, it is too bad that gamers have to get caught up in a political pissing contest. It's just a game, durr.
Now what do you suppose the odds are that iwould have passed the banned list if one of the major powers hadn't been the USA? Anti-war setiments toast round buttox.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
So what? Strategy games are the oldest entertainment known to man.
In case you didn't notice, that was about 60 years ago. The *people* who did that are either dead, or sitting quietly in a corner drooling.
If you think that guilt is a hereditary condition, you should consider the history of your own country too. Germany's body-count is far from the highest in recorded history.
What would Lemmy do?
Germany is going right back to fascism with this police state control on its society. Good just Gerhard Schroeder...France's little B****.
Nope, the only terrorists in Canada are the frenchies who are dedicated to the destruction of canada. Mange marde yourself, idiot.
Why this is a bad idea. It denies possible outcomes to possible real life solutions.
One recent instance I can think of was when Turkey recently requested 1000 Leopard II tanks from Germany. Leopard II tanks are very capable main battle tanks, almost equivilent to the US Abrams main battle tank. How much confidence, (if this deal had gone through) would it have given the Turks an incentive to invade northern Iraq. And what would be the outcome? Just because you don't like violence shouldn't be the reason for denying kids their right to learn from mistakes. It's a form of censorship plain and simple.
Too bad America haven't experienced a single war on its territory for past >100 years, maybe they'd learn something from that.
[satire]
We have learned that we are fortunate not to live on the European continent. On second thought it was not good fortune, for many it was our ancestor's good sense to leave the region.
[/satire]
We have also learned from the mistakes of others. It would have been better for the French and British to forcibly enforce the Treaty of Versailles, which end World War I and limited German arms and troop deployments, when Hitler first began to illegally rearm and forward deploy troops. The result of diplomacy in this case was an even bloodier war. Diplomacy only works if both sides are making an honest effort.
--
SVM, ERGO MONSTRO
Yes, we are working hard here in to put chess on the restricted list, too. Then again, one might introduce some new rule, where the black king and the white queen can sit down on G4 and talk for a while, or we might replace the knight by a new figure: "the diplomat". The diplomat can't move, but will have some really cool abilities. What exactly is not yet clear, the EU games council is still negotiating.
Please, don't put white queen on G4 -- G4's actually run pretty hot, she'll burn her ass.
It should also teach us about governments who claim to "free people" when they conquer a country.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
When the coalition comes, it will spearhead the attack with tanks, and follow with soldiers. I'd tell my troops never to fire at tanks - only shoot at flesh and blood targets. After they open up on the first wave of infantry, I'd have them retreat in pairs to the next block in a running firefight, forcing the invaders to pay for every block of the city.
Bring things back to slightly On-Topic:
This sounds like an extremely cool game concept. Maybe Novalogic's Blackhawk Down could be modded into something like this for FPS, though the AI is so poor it would have to be multiplayer only.
A whole new game is needed that would allow hundreds of defenders and invaders, and destructable buildings would be key to not giving the snipers a permanent advantage. But excessive destruction and civilian death (whichever side causes them) would cost the invaders victory points, and kills earned by the defenders dressed as civilians wouldn't be worth as much as in regular uniforms.
Have lots of civilians, most of which will flood out of the place or cower in basements. Invader forces gunned down a column of refugees on the way in? That'll take their victory point down to zero, so if your invader teammates go psycho you need to friendly-fire them before they lose the battle for you.
Throw in a reporter/cameraman player class, whose presence near a firefight will exaggerate the victory points won or lost by either side (propaganda bonuses), though sometimes with unpredictable results: sometimes filming dead or dying soldiers or civilians will enable the invaders more leeway to do more damage or the opposite, depending on some other factors. Maybe sometimes either side will want to take out a pesky reporter, but it will cost your side if the reporter 'shoots' first...
Last thing: make sure you find some really solid funding for the game development that won't flake out or censor the key aspects.
For those who have actually played the game, you'll note that one of the US mission involves a UN negotiator meeting with the GLA terrorist group. Of course, the GLA kills the diplomat, but the attempt IS made. I wonder if they even bothered to check...
Elke Monssen-Engberding is not the director of the Ministry for Family Affairs, this is Renate Schmidt. She is the director of the (from a earlier ost) german "Bundespruefstelle fuer jugendgefaehrdende Schriften" (federal department for the control of youth-endangering writings).
Please correct that.
War is Fun when You Know You Won't Die. Or will we?
--- Back to the trees, back to the trees !
Reconstructed countries become pacifist. A country has to lose the war, and then feel that it's just as well that they lost.
The US won't learn any more from losing the present war (if it does) than it learned from Korea or Vietnam, both of which it lost at a great cost. If the US were driven back and the UN came in and fixed up the situation, removing Saddam and his regime, and setting up, with arab support and assistance, a state that all the Iraqi peoples could agree on, the US might learn something.
Staying neutral is a fine idea in this war. The US, unfortunately, has never been neutral towards Iraq, and trying to become neutral is a bad idea. It's not like Saddam is likely to attack France or Germany.
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
World War I...
World War II...
Vietnam...
Yeah, those were all wars we won easily. Take your own advice and "think for once" before you post, smart guy.
"We are far too easily pleased." --C.S. Lewis
Poor argument.
The Sims, and C&C, and virtually ALL video games have several unilateral effects:
1. The undermining of social fabric as people withdraw from un-safe real-world interaction.
2. The re-writing of synaptic pathways so that make-believe realities and their solutions begin affect all aspects of the brain's opperation.
You think that playing games for thousands of hours where gruesome, careless murder is a standard practice, "gore levels" are a setting, and the flickering monitor lulls the viewer into a semi-hypnotic state won't have any effect whatsoever?
That's just wishful thinking.
The greatest lie ever perpetrated upon the public by advertisers is that people are immune to advertising. Or in this case, media in general.
-Fantastic Lad
I'll bite:
In the French version, surrender or forever stalling are the only options. The only way to get out is to reboot.
Table-ized A.I.
1: They only supported us after we won the battle of Lake Champlaign (sp) and it became obvious that the Britsh position was becoming untenable. In the aftermath of the revolution, we actually found ourselves gravitating more towards the British then the French.
2: This has less to do with what is the right or wrong course of action when dealing with Iraq then it has to do French commercial interests and French geo-political aspirations. What France is trying to do is set itself as a new global power, hence their neo-colonialist activities in Africa. If that is their goal then that's fine, a little competition between countires can be a good thing. However, I do have a couple of issues. First, I'm not sure France is prepared for the burden global leadership, I'm not sure they are ready to pay the bills in terms of money and blood. Second, when France stumbles, we end up leaving a lot of little, white crosses behind.
I did get a good laugh out of the French Foreign Minister going to London recently and saying something along the lines of how they should work together in the spirit of Anglo-French cooperation like when they teamed up to defeat Nazi Germany. I laughed so hard I almost pissed myself.
between the greater and lesser infinities sleep the dreams undreamt
I totally missed the name 'Shephard' in Command and Conquer; a cheesey biblical reference if there ever was one! --Though no doubt fairly effective on a subconscious level. (They often are when your top layer of awareness fails to notice!)
Typically, I find that most of the huge and pervasive media coups, (Star Wars, Matrix, C&C, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings etc.), are largely mediums for channeled messages from either the dark or light side regarding current and upcoming events during these end of times when the stakes are so high. --Usually completely without the knowledge of the human writers. Every good writer will tell you, "It just comes to me! I'm just writing as fast as I can to keep up! I don't know where I get my ideas! Etc."
I think my one of favorite examples appears in The Matrix. (What a battle ground of warring messages, that film was!) Next time you get a chance, check out the package art. Those weird sunglasses Neo and Trinity were wearing? Notice how their faces are transformed when they had them on? Now, where else have we all seen that kind of facial configuration?
Be careful, though. Greys are NOT saviors. They're tools and agents of the dark side. A really insidious subliminal message if there ever was one! But well worth it, for all the other stuff The Matrix delivered into popular thought!
-Fantastic Lad
I think EA is doing a pretty good job by itself, what with a recommended system configuration like this?!
1.8 GHz CPU
256 MB RAM
32 MB AGP (GeForce2 etc.)
Sad, one of the things I enjoyed the most about older C&C games was their somewhat crude 2D look. But then, obviously I'm in the minority!
Shouldn't this be under the "censorship" topic?
-- (Score:i, Imaginary)
I think that that's kind of different though. I mean, I can point out other countries with lower murder rates. I mean, look at Canada. Their murder rate's incredibly low, and they still let their kids have those things.
I don't think that there's any real correlation between video games and violence. I was playing Wolfenstein 3D and Doom back in 5th and 6th grade, and shooters ever since. I've always, and all of my friends have always been able to separate the real world from that of games. I've never gone on a killig spree and no one that I know has either, at least in real life;).
Actually, we've been half-assing it for 50 years. Before that we Jim Crowed it for about 60 years, which is less ambiguous. And of course the 300 years before that were even less ambiguous.
I'm not saying the U.S. is particularly better than Germany. But we never had their incentives. Like losing a vicious war and getting caught indulging in racial extermination. (Of course, we did it too, but never really got called on it.)
Where I live, you can walk down the street with a black person. Doesn't mean black people are treated fairly. LeVar Burton was pulled over on a DWB only a few miles from here.
Naturally there are more neo Nazis in the east -- such movements always appeal to those who feel they've been shortchanged. But they are quite visible in the west as well. They were making news long before
You might ask your African friend how it feels to be a person of color in Germany. Assuming he gives you an honest answer. Black people often assume that white people don't really want to know what it's like to be black, even when they say they do. I think they're probably right.
You have GOT to be kidding. Who makes your Nikes? Which occupied Middle Eastern country does most of the U.S. supply of cocaine come from? Where did all the blacks in America come from? Heck, who set up and aided Bin Laden in his terrorist activities? (So that the U.S. would have an excuse to launch its bid for empire?)
You're right. It's not Germany.
Put blood in your video games, Germany. Show violent war movies. Let your youth understand the consequences. Or forget all too soon how horrible it really is. That is truely what's dangerous.
No, no, NO!
Media violence has NOTHING to do with raising public awareness about the evils of war. It has EVERYTHING to do with cultural programming.
Think of it this way:
If Hitler had been in a position to de-sensitize German youth through video games and television for twenty years prior to launching his bid for world domination, if he had the ability to forge synaptic links in the brains of all his followers between the emotion of 'Fun' and the act of 'Murder', do you think for a second he'd have balked at doing so?
Me neither.
-Fantastic Lad
"It portrays war as the only way to resolve conflicts" Har har, Dubya warmongering blah, blah, ignoring un, etc, etc...
Ask any German, and he will tell you that war is not the only option. For example, one can settle their differences with another by systemmatically rounding that other's race and exterminating them mercilessly.
- America liberates Iraq
- America makes a strategic retreat from Vietnam
- America liberates Nicaraugua
- America liberates Chile
etc
Most games, from The Sims, to Command And Conquer have several unilateral effects:
You think that playing violent video games for thousands of hours where gruesome, careless murder is a standard practice, "gore levels" are a setting, and the flickering monitor has been proven without any doubt to lull its viewers into a semi-hypnotic state, won't have any effect whatsoever?
That's just wishful thinking! -And I know it sucks, because I've spent thousands of hours I'll never get back enjoying video game (drug) as well.
But really. .
If Hitler had been in a position to de-sensitize German youth through video games and television for twenty years prior to launching his bid for world domination, if he had the ability to forge synaptic links in the brains of all his followers between the emotion of 'Fun' and the act of 'Murder', do you think for a second he'd have balked at doing so?
Me neither.
Everybody claims that, "Video Games have no effect on me." Bullshit. I've seen kids get fucking excited with anticipation when they consider the amount of devestation an air-fuel bomb can cause. We're at war because our media put us there. Period.
The greatest lie ever perpetrated upon the public by advertisers is that people are immune to media manipulation.
-Fantastic Lad
This is yet another ridiculous red herring by the GDI to maintain their economic advantage against the impoverished nations of the Brotherhood! GDI wants to impose these harvester sanctions so that Nod will be dependent on GDI for power.
Yes, the Brotherhood of Nod does have harvesters, but we use them to power our cities, run our industry, and remain economically viable. Under GDI's sanctions the whole of Africa would be overun with hazardous tiberium in months! We cannot allow our children to be poisoned by this dangerous substance!
It's common knowledge that Nod's tiberium refining capability is not sufficient to produce weapons-grade tiberium, yet GDI continues to fill our skies with ion cannon satellites, all the while claiming to be a "peacekeeping force". This is an outrage.
I call upon the UN General Assembly to end these illegal sanctions and disband the criminal Global Defense Initiative.
In the service of Kane,
-Cybrex
Boundless Expansion, Self-Transformation, Dynamic Optimism, Intelligent Technology, Spontaneous Order- BEST DO IT SO!
To many posters: you're misinformed and biased to an extent that is difficult to believe. You only seem to be waiting for any news from Germany that could be interpreted as Anti-Americanism and then start drooling and ranting how bad and stupid Germany is. Bah. Take a look at German television and listen to some radio stations and then tell me again we're Anti-American.
And then this continuous upbringing of Hitler and Nazi and whatever - it simply sickens me. There doesn't seem to be a single post where the word "Germany" isn't followed by either of the latter words sooner or later. Jesus, we've been feeling bad enough and humiliated about our history for generations. Don't worry, we won't forget that history. Can you believe a nation actually CHANGES within half a century?
Games like the one in question have been put on the index here before. While it is always debatable whether whether or not the government should interfere everywhere and decide what is good for you and what isn't (and mostly the answer is no): Don't give me the free speech and censorship crap and tell me the US is the only place where it exists. There is no more censorship in Germany than there is in the US. The games on the "Index" are NOT BANNED, only minor's access to them is restricted - in a more or less symbolic way, since the restriction is frequently violated. If I wanted to give it a ranting I'd say Americans are ridiculously prudish and start screaming at the sight of a pair of boobs. Where is your free speech there? Doesn't your government tell you what's good for you if you can't drink your beer in public without being mature and grown for years? Good job I don't want to rant. I just think people on both sides should be a little more open-minded and reasonable.
To the Germans posting here: why does everyone apologize for his bad English after every second sentence? It's humiliating. We're not native speakers and we usually have little exercise, so what the heck?
I've been told that one of the earlier C&C games replaced the blood with green stuff for the German release because of this issue. You were supposedly fighting cyborgs.
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
The German authorities have always been very, very strict concerning violence in computer games. We've always had censored versions of the C&C series ("cyborgs" and black oil blood) and almost every 3D shooter "indexed", as the procedure is commonly called due to the "index of youth-endangering media" that the games are put on.
The only little novelty here is that war, and not violence and/or its graphical portrayal is stated as the primary reason for the indexing, which it at least unusual. How far the current political situation has influenced the authorities' decision I cannot say.
Anyone remember Cannon Fodder? By gosh, imagine if that game was released today. That'd give 'em something to complain about!
"War! Never been so much fun!"
The movies in the German version of CnC (DOS/Gold) were changed so instead of humans being killed there were robots dying.
Pretty much anything goes. As long as peta isn't required to be there an no one dies, the party light is lit and the disco ball is locked and in the get down position.
--Jimmy has fancy plans; and pants to match.
Though I don't see how it changes much really, :) :)
I agree that games seem to be largely a vhicle for violence, I went through my own stuff to clean them out since ive got 4 nieces and nephews and 97% off the stuff i had went out the door and wont be back.
For those who say it has no effect, what about advertising if exposure to images has no effect why do we advertise.!!!!!, what we see feel and think we ultimately create.....
But say have you heard about the game co thats doing a game where you have to infiltrate america, join a flight school, learn to fly and navigate then fly a big plane after fuelling it . and fly it into a large building - bound to be a big seller. assuming there's anywhere left afterall
isnt korea building nukes, the chinese suppressing there people not to mention the crap around isreal etc of to war we go
The Iraqi resolution was part of a surrender, after Iraq lost a war. Also the Iraqi resolution is unilateral; it does not depend on any other country to work with Iraq to disarm.
On the other hand, Resolution 242 is a resolution that gives tasks for the entire region. Such as:
Strange how you don't blame the PLO, whose charter until recently included words to the effect of "No Israel ever", for not acknowledging the sovereignty of Israel. Or any of the other countries surrounding Israel who even after the resolution still went to war with Israel.
I guess its not strange that you think Israel could have done all this by itself. Seems most of the delusional people who are anti-war think that all it takes for peace is for one side to stop fighting. Sadly, things don't work that way.
When you choose to smudge your own reality and dwell within it's distorted boundries, it is at that point then you have chosen to deny reality for whatever mental reasons you may have. If you cannot deal with reality then perhaps instead of vegging out infront of games with drugs/booze you should be seeing a therapist and investing in a perscription meant to help your mental position and outlook. Accept the responsibility of your choices, actions, and mental state of being instead of pointing fingers and crying poor poor me look what that did to poor poor me.
Children, need parents to raise them not programming viewed through the television or video games. Children that have been raised correctly by parents who care and love for them will have been taught the difference from right and wrong, reality and fantasy, a time for work and a time for relaxing. Granted, there is a time and place for things and children should not be subjected to it prematurely to their parents wishes and the child's well being. But put the blame where it goes, a parent not raising the child and allowing society in general, TV/Movies/Etc, video games and so on to raise their children is the entity at blame for a child thinking violence is a viable solution and a fun game free of pain and suffering. If the cover of this game is not graphic, then it should not be hidden away like trying to pretend it does not exist no unlike people trying to pretend reality does not exist by zoning out in front of games etc.
Point the finger of blame where it truly belongs
-1 Overrated (Too many big words for me to comprehend)
Uhm, what makes you think Rooks are male? I don't see any interesting body parts sticking out (or doing the opposite for that matter).:)
Is this a sigs-optional kind of place? 'Cause I am totally down with that if you know what I mean.
well, if lettig saddam make werapons and snub thge UN and make a farce of inspections is bad, and going to war is bad, and just not doing anything about it is bad, then you might as well remove saddam becasue the benifits of doing so are greater than not doing anything or running around in circles in the security councel.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
we did not lose korea, it was a stale mate....we would have won big time if MacAurther was not such an arogant ass and ignored Mao's warning not to approach the boarder.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
we did learn from Vietnam...we learned never get into a war that you do not Aim to defeat the other side......we never commited ground troops to invading the north and takeing down the N. Vietnamese government. you can not fight a war that you never intended to win in the first place.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Seems most of the delusional people who are pr-war think that all it takes for peace is for one side to breach the law and fight just as dirtily. Sadly things don't work that way.
I can't even understand what you are saying here. Are you intending to accuse the US of breaking some law by invading Iraq? Or are you accusing Iraq of breaking the law by fighting from hospitals, in civilian clothes, after falsely surrendering, hiping amongst civilians, torturing/executing prisoners, etc?
Finally, Britain learned, started behaving within the law and took its beatings. It hurt, it hurt a hell of a lot for about a decade. But, you know what? Opinion on the streets is no so anti-IRA that they're barely a credible organisation anymore. No one joins, they blow the odd minor thing up and they get turned in by their own people. Most of them have left terrorism and entered in to regular crime.
Ah, so the US should just take its beatings until the terrorists get tired of attacking us. Good plan. Oh thats right, this is about Iraq. Well I guess since Iraq is only killing its own people, and hasn't tried to take over a neighbor in 10 years, we should just let them grow stronger and stronger, until they can directly hurt us. After all, ignoring the weapon restrictions placed on Germany after it lost WW1 sure didn't have any negative effects on the rest of the world.
Oh, and notice that the IRA didn't actually apologize for the bombings until after 9/11, when the world was focused on the deaths of many (predominantly Irish) police and firemen in NY. The IRA, rightly, realised that the world would no longer put up with terrorists, and that they better distance themselves right quick.
So, next time you try telling people that turning the other cheek doesn't work, just take a look at the simple facts. Yes, it's slow but it does absolutely work. Of course, don't let history get in the way of angry rehoric. If that's what floats your boat, you go right ahead.
Eh? The IRA realised that bombing was bad. What, exactly, worked? How many people should the PLO, or Al Qaeda, or whoever, be allowed to kill before we hope they come to their senses without war? Would 6 million be enough for them to learn the error of their ways? Or is that too much history getting in the way of angry rhetoric?
And what "angry rhetoric" anyhow? There was nothing angry in my post, and nothing that I would think was rhetoric anyhow. Only thing that could possibly come close is my "delusional people ... one side stop fighting" comment. Which doesn't seem like rhetoric, since that is exactly the point you brought up in response to my post.
One last point: I do blame the PLO. I'm just realistic enough to realise that killing civilians by the thousand only adds to their support, not diminishes it.
Ah, how nice. Yet busses blowing up doesn't diminish their support? The similarities to Iraq are high. If you hide your weapon making amongst your own civilians, you can't cry when the civilians get killed. They don't make weapons that only take out one apartment in a building, especially not if the apartment is full of bombs.
But of course, you knew that. "History" and all.
Not to provoke an argument, but have you even played the single player storyline of the C&C game series? The goal, for the good guys, is to -stop- the evil dictator or communist (the series never used fascists, with the vague possibility of the Nod.) Even if you play as the bad guys, which is to topple the good guys, the sequel (assuming the game has/gets a sequel) continues the storyline with the good guys winning. EA = Pro-fascists? Not if I just destroyed the last Allied base and the Allied Chronosphere in Alaska yet my side, the Soviets, is the loser in the beginning of the sequel.
As for fans not liking Generals, thats more of a balance and traditionalism issue than the game's topic. (Getting hit by 5 or more nuclear missles is pretty humiliating. The loss of real life actors continuing the storyline, which is non-existant in General, is a big blow off for long time fans.)
Oh? I don't know where you're from, but lets say you're from Rhode Island. Say the United Nations decided to make a homeland for refugees from some conflict on Rhode Island. Without any reguard to the people who happened to be living there at the time, such as yourself.
Just how fast would you recognize the sovereignty of this new country?
There was no country Palestine prior to Israel being formed. The people living there were not forced to move. Prior to the formation, the territory was a British colony. Prior to THAT, it was the Ottoman Empire. Yes, many Arabs lived there before Israel. As did many Jews.
Yes, prior to the lines being drawn, there was a territory named "Palestine". But do a little research and you will also see that Jordan was part of Palestine as well; you aren't claiming that Jordan stole land from the Palestinians, are you? Or that the Palestinians are challenging the sovereignty of Jordan? Of course you aren't...
A country being formed does not displace the people there. Its like the birth of a town. If there is unincorporated land that people are living on, they can petition to have a town officially made. If it passes, the town gets formed. If Bob down the street in the new town voted against it, he doesn't get kicked out. Its just a line on a map. Should Bob not recognize the town? Should Bob blow up the town hall? Should Bob move away and then claim the town stole his land? Or should he recognize the town...
"with pornography: someone who looks at that stuff too much and from too young an age may never learn what real love and intimacy feel like. It's a real problem."
you mean they won't know the cold painful tangs of heartbreak when they manifest? or mabye they won't ever feel it when their 'intimate' partner tells them that they've been living in a dreamworld, and that all they wanted was the sex, or that they've been cheating on you the whole time? [and they never liked you to begin with...]... or any of the millions of reaons why lovers inevidably break apart? love is a necessary evil - if you have found a way to rid us of this curse, then we should utilize it - nevermind this fear of the cure to our heart's discontent.
anyone with half an ounce of humanity in them would know better.
the real problem is love - without love there would be no heartbreak. how you can sit and defend something that would dissallow for the continuation of love is beyond me.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
It's interesting that nobody complains about the U.S. liberating Germany from their leaders in WWII, even though many more civilians died in that endevor than will die in this one. The ends did in fact justifiy the means in that situation. However, it is always sad to see innocent civilians die for this purpose, I won't argue with that.
If you check the German website:
t ml
http://www.suddenstrike.de/english/index_news.h
You'll see advertising for Sudden Strike, Sudden Strike II, etc. These are games that are made in Germany. I don't see any diplomatic options in these games. Can someone from Germany let us know if these games are also on the restricted list? Then we can see if this is another blatent Anti-US move and be appropriately pissed.
grimzap
..why just last week, it seems, it was "6000 years of civilisation".
Bitter and proud of it.
If you want to debunk bad history, you have to be able to discuss it openly, with no penalties for people who believe that Hitler got a bum rap, or that the world is flat, or other bonehead ideas. That can be hard to live with, but nobody said that living in a free society was easy.
So there wasn't a nation Palestine, whoop de frikkin do! In case you missed your United States history, Rhoad Island isn't a nation either. By your logic, all it would take is the United Nations moving in more refugees than there are current residents, and the natives of the island couldn't complain because they'd be outvoted.
Aside from the fact that I don't drink or take drugs, I heartily agree with most of what you say. --And also, except for the part about prescription psyche drugs being a good solution for the kind of problems you refer to. I know you were being facetious, but still; Drugs of that sort are some of the nastiest mind-deadening juju people can get hit with. Worse even than video games!
You're thinking too small there, brother! It's not about trying to pretend the stuff doesn't exist. It's about Germany deliberately trying to cripple the sale and consumption of a toxic material to kids who are too young to have any guard up against powerful brainwashing techniques.
Sure, in the broadest sense, it's a violation of free will, which in the long run prevents people from learning through painful error. But frankly, (and you talked about children and the need to take care of them), most adults are no more aware enough of themselves or of their world than the average child. It is for this reason that Bush and co were able to get us into this war as easily as they did.
Think of it this way;
If Joseph Goebbels had managed to gain wide and popular distribution for his propaganda films in toy stores, then as a govnerment elected by the people to act in society's best interest, wouldn't you want to do something to prevent kids being exposed to his crap?
There is a constant war raging to win the minds of the public. The side which wins, literally, rules the world. --Germany just wants to stop the proliferation of American mind-control media within their own borders. And I think that's cool.
-Fantastic Lad
The BPjM (the institute that looks after these things) puts games on the restricted list or 'Index' that could be a bad influence to young people (pornographic elements, extreme (graphic) brutality, content that is extremly disturbing to a young human and influence his growing up process in a bad way (for example: Hitler's 'Mein Kampf' is only allowed to be read if it's in a scientific context and if the book has the scientific annotations), glorifying brutality and or war.
If the game, book, movie or whatever is overall too extreme in one or all of these things it can be even completly banned and it's no longer allowed to sell, buy or even possess it. But banning is used seldom and it has to be ordered by a judge in a trial.
You can go against both the Indizierung (to be put on the index) and the banning, first one per internal trial at the BPjM, second one by court. That's also possible mutiple times but of course there has to be a time difference in the filing of the applications.
For example: On the Index are Unreal Tournament (first and 2003), all the Quake episodes, GTA:Vice City, Soldier of Fortune, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, uncutted movies like Robocop II, Evil Dead 3, Scream I (yes, it too think that's funny ^_^). Counterstrike was interestingly not put on it.
Banned are Wolfenstein:3D (because of the massively used neonarzistic symbols in a not historical context) and some very rassistical games like Niggerbashing, movies like uncutted Braindead,
Evil Dead was banned to but got unbanned and now is only on the Index. Of course a distributor or someonle else has to file an application to unban,
At the moment an officialy accounted Organisation has to file an application for putting a specific media on the list (like the ministry for family,...) but starting from the first of april they can start at their own will. But the BPjM has not enough people to do more than the ones they get an application for
Oh, I forgot: If something is recognised as art (wich are a lot of movies) it is not allowed to ban it or to put it on the Index. But the problem ist that games are at the moment not recognised as to be possibly art (ok, most isn't but they say theay don't have the potential to be it
But being put on the Index is one thing, getting sued for selling these in public (and other things) is another. In the real life a lot of the small shops doesn't care about selling these products openly and only one or two getting sued for it over the year
Or you can drive just in one of our neighbour-countries, buy it and come back. So, today it's in some ways just something on paper (but if you get sued it can get very expensive (for german relations
Nothing against your statement or anything, but that sentence ought to be taken out and shot.
However, I think it would be prudent to mention that since 1985, the Pentagon has spent over $45 billion on development of the F22 Raptor and the USA has no free health care system.
I suppose it all depends on what you believe in, really. Personally I believe war is more obscene than sex.
Wow, since I base my entire self image on your opinion of me and your absolute determinations regarding people you've not even met, I will now be forced to commit Selbstmord. I suppose you can go find your tourist's German dictionary and find out what that actually means.
If you ever GO to Germany you'll see they don't try to bury their past.
I studied German and Germany quite intensively (not just a fucking vacation) and yes, they do. It is actually illegal to sell Nazi memorabilia in Germany. I recall a German schoolkid who did a tasteful project on Nazism got expelled. So yes, the Germans have spent the last 50 years expunging the previous 50 from their collective history.
Except that your comments in conjunction with your shitty sort-of German are simply bigoted and insulting.
I actually speak German. Fairly well. And I actually enjoy the German culture. But it doesn't mean they do everything right...and anyone who can't laugh at themselves as well as everyone else takes things a bit too seriously.
Oh, and sign your posts if you're going to flame, you fucking coward.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
Excellent idea. Let's make something restricted and force it to be kept under the counter and sold only to adults. It worked great for Carmageddon and BMX XXX. Those games so like totally didn't get any free marketing.
== chicks are for fags ==
I somewhat misread your post, and therefore the beginning of my rant was unwarranted. I am a big boy, and I apologize for that.
What I need to ask, then, is if you didn't mean "give the U.S. a kick in the nuts", what did you mean? If you don't in some fashion want Iraq to win the war, what do you want?
Also, if you truly didn't mean it, I think it would be important to "print a retraction"
you are looking for :)
-DaedalusHKX
" What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
Dimensions will always be expressed in the least usable term, convertible
only through the use of weird and unnatural conversion factors. Velocity,
for example, will be expressed in furlongs per fortnight.
- this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...