"If its at the expense of me being able to customize the UI to fit my style, then I don't want it."
That's fine for you, however OSX (and Windows) are mass-market products.
"Instead Newtek followed the windows lead, where undo is typically Ctrl-Z."
Lightwave pre-dates Windows 95. It didn't even start on the PC. There was no lead to follow. The change would have been harfum at nearly any point in its life.
"And for the subset of computer users who naturally adhere to Apple's UI philosophy. In the end I think it limits their market."
I see your point. Not sure I agree with it, but I don't totally disagree with it either. On the one hand, I agree that limiting the usefulness of the UI sucks ass. I mean, the job of a computer is to work as efficiently as possible. On the other hand, what good is a mass-market OS if somebody cannot easily be shown how to work it?
It really is a middle-ground sort of situation, not an extreme either way.
"By the way, I originally thought to disable cookies on all images but realized some servers may do security checking via cookies before sending an image. But there is very little legitimate use for sending cookies on images that are outside the domain."
Seems to me that'd be a great way to deal with image leeching on the web. Not the only way but not a bad way. One of the neat features of the web is that it can be so inter-connected, but since bandwidth costs money, not everybody feels those features are so neat.
I don't have a strong opinion either way (frankly, I like the idea of having the client specify whether it'll accept the cookies or not), but nearly ANY feature can be both useful and abused.
"The Mac theory of UI seems to revolve around Apple knowing the right way to do something. But different people end up working with the UI in different ways."
On the flip side, though, this philosophy makes it considerably easier to support the user. If people re-map their kb shortcuts and the locations of their icons, it's considerably harder to tell or show somebody how to do something in particular.
I run into this problem with Lightwave, sometimes. When they went from version 7 to 8, they remapped a bunch of the kb shortcuts. 'u' used to be Undo, but then they made it ctrl+z. So when it comes time to write documentation for LW (or a plug-in made for LW, which I recently did...), I had to write documentation for both LW 7 and 8. If LW had followed Apple's lead, the documentation and tutorial part would have been easier.
I'm not saying Apple is right or wrong or that Newtek should follow their lead, rather I'm simply pointing out that it's not all bad. It really depends on your target audience. In Apple's case, I think it works for them. It also makes their job of automating stuff a lot easier. I recently installed a wireless router for my cousin, I was shocked at how easy that was. "Oh lookie, I found a wireless router. Would you like me to talk to it? Well, here's what I need..."
"This is not anything like the RIAA / MPAA suing individual users."
You're right. I would also add that Nintendo will definitely want to continue to own the copyright to these titles. If clones or rips are made and sold without permission, Nintendo's basically giving them the green light to keep going. They can't just wait until a big one comes along that uses one of their franchises that are still active.
"Is anyone concerned that MP/RIAA would want to know their "enemy" better in order to discover its weaknesses and close it down more effectively?"
If that's the case, they're already doing it now.
Frankly, I don't care. I'd be willing to pay for legit versions of movies or TV shows for download. I'm more worried about restrictions like "You can't copy it to your laptop after you've purchased it".
"Make it NOT look like froofy pastel crap that makes people violently ill!"
If you right click in there, you can access the toolbar access stuff without bringing up the properties of that particular icon. That's not to say I disagree with you, but rather just pointing out that it's not completely 100% useless. (That's typically where I go when I either need the task manager or to unlock the taskbar.)
"Make it NOT look like froofy pastel crap that makes people violently ill!"
Err okay. The XP default scheme, though quite bold, is not pastel. (It's more like Fisher Price.:P)
In all seriousness, it's not all that bad. I discovered that my biggest beef with that color scheme wasn't the colors used, but the wallpaper. I turned that black, and suddenly XP's interface isn't so bad. What's nice about it is that it's rather easy to tell which window is active or blinking. The difference between orange and blue is quite striking. Green is a nice highlight color as it has a decent contrast against blue.
I can understand the screenshots not looking so appealing, but having used it for a while now, I actually kind of like it. (Especially after getting rid of that damn wallpaper.) I wish by default the titlebars were smaller, but their color choice is fine.
"Truly, if you're into function over form, the Win2K interface is far more refined than the prettier, but painfully illogical backwards step that became XP. I am amazed, yet not surprised, at the number of people who are barely competent enough to create a desktop icon, but manage to figure out how to return to the "classic" style. I hope the next Windows interface will be a return to crisp function and logical work flow."
Can you elaborate a little bit on what you mean by 'painfully illogical backwards step'? For basic folder stuff, etc, XP's not that much different. The difference is mostly cosmetic. The start menu is questionably better or worse, depending on how you drive. It's great if you use 10 apps requently, it's an extra step if you blow past that. The Control Panel... er... I have no idea what they were thinking with that, but you're a click away from bringing it back.
Err okay I was just babbling for a moment. When you switch from XP's default to classic view, the main change to it is cosmetic, not functional. (Unless you can correct me on that, which I'd appreciate.) You still have your min/max/restore/and close Icons etc.
In the mean time, what XP does offer you is the ability to lock the taskbar. That little feature suddenly makes the toolbar a far more interesting UI tool. There's actually a lot you can do down there, but I don't think most people bothered with a whole lot because you could accidently drag it and mess up the order of everything.
One of my biggest usability changes in XP came from unlocking the taskbar and making effective use of the tabs inside it. No, I'm not just talking about Quicklaunch here. You can add different folders, including My Computer. For example, right now I have my drive letters exposed. I can right click on the C:\ drive and do a properties to get an idea of how much space I have left. I have two optical drives so at a glance I can see what discs are in there. (The name of the disc is put in place of the title.) I also have a 'shortcuts' folder I made (sort of like Quicklaunch) with a shortcut to that folder. Why is this useful? A.) it's easy to get at that folder so I can add remove stuff. B.) I'm constantly changing folders or files so I can quickly add stuff.
In short, I've made effective use of shortcuts etc using the taskbar. I don't have to do near as much folder surfing. On top of all that, the interface is pretty simple provided you know to unlock it first.
"Now she gets all the benefits of that military and police protection, the roads, the schools, etc, but doesn't have to pay for any of it!"
Uh... if they recieved an inheritance, and that money had already had its taxes paid on, then they already have paid for it. It's money changing hands, not money suddenly appearing out of nowhere.
"Frankly, that's a retarded attitude, but a lot of lazy people share it."
Some of it is 'laziness', some of it is having a life-style that doesn't support having a sudden bill for $500.
Yes, people can take better care of their money. Yes, people can save, etc. Blah blah blah. The point is, it's not up to you to judge whether anybody is 'retarded' simply because they chose convenience.
(Note: I'm not saying you're wrong about the idea that it's not the wisest choice for the frugal, mainly I'm responding to the 'retarded attitude' but.)
" Microsoft is NOT the company to defend when comparing to Sony in that arena."
Hey, if you can show me where MS touted the XBOX as being several times more powerful than it could really be, I'll happily retract that statement.
Just to be clear: I'm not an XBOX or Microsoft fan. I'm coming from the point of view of somebody who's never heard MS make these sort of claims despite being more or less 'in the know'. I'm not kidding when I say I'll retract it, I just want a little proof.
"Where by 'researched' I mean, 'typed in some swears without actually stopping to figure out what over half of the items you've quoted above actually meant'.
Said the guy who only replied to one of my many rebuttals.
"Strickly speaking, Grissom, White, and Chaffee were not killed on the first Apollo "mission", but during a launch pad test in prep for the first Apollo flight. Since they hadn't launched..."
In the context of this discussion, does that distinction really matter?
Slashdot Mirror
"If its at the expense of me being able to customize the UI to fit my style, then I don't want it."
:)
That's fine for you, however OSX (and Windows) are mass-market products.
"Instead Newtek followed the windows lead, where undo is typically Ctrl-Z."
Lightwave pre-dates Windows 95. It didn't even start on the PC. There was no lead to follow. The change would have been harfum at nearly any point in its life.
"And for the subset of computer users who naturally adhere to Apple's UI philosophy. In the end I think it limits their market."
I see your point. Not sure I agree with it, but I don't totally disagree with it either. On the one hand, I agree that limiting the usefulness of the UI sucks ass. I mean, the job of a computer is to work as efficiently as possible. On the other hand, what good is a mass-market OS if somebody cannot easily be shown how to work it?
It really is a middle-ground sort of situation, not an extreme either way.
G'nite.
"By the way, I originally thought to disable cookies on all images but realized some servers may do security checking via cookies before sending an image. But there is very little legitimate use for sending cookies on images that are outside the domain."
Seems to me that'd be a great way to deal with image leeching on the web. Not the only way but not a bad way. One of the neat features of the web is that it can be so inter-connected, but since bandwidth costs money, not everybody feels those features are so neat.
I don't have a strong opinion either way (frankly, I like the idea of having the client specify whether it'll accept the cookies or not), but nearly ANY feature can be both useful and abused.
"Why? How many different people have to worry about your wife waking up grouchy? :P"
Geek of Tech wins: HUMILIATION.
"The Mac theory of UI seems to revolve around Apple knowing the right way to do something. But different people end up working with the UI in different ways."
On the flip side, though, this philosophy makes it considerably easier to support the user. If people re-map their kb shortcuts and the locations of their icons, it's considerably harder to tell or show somebody how to do something in particular.
I run into this problem with Lightwave, sometimes. When they went from version 7 to 8, they remapped a bunch of the kb shortcuts. 'u' used to be Undo, but then they made it ctrl+z. So when it comes time to write documentation for LW (or a plug-in made for LW, which I recently did...), I had to write documentation for both LW 7 and 8. If LW had followed Apple's lead, the documentation and tutorial part would have been easier.
I'm not saying Apple is right or wrong or that Newtek should follow their lead, rather I'm simply pointing out that it's not all bad. It really depends on your target audience. In Apple's case, I think it works for them. It also makes their job of automating stuff a lot easier. I recently installed a wireless router for my cousin, I was shocked at how easy that was. "Oh lookie, I found a wireless router. Would you like me to talk to it? Well, here's what I need..."
"This is not anything like the RIAA / MPAA suing individual users."
You're right. I would also add that Nintendo will definitely want to continue to own the copyright to these titles. If clones or rips are made and sold without permission, Nintendo's basically giving them the green light to keep going. They can't just wait until a big one comes along that uses one of their franchises that are still active.
"Why would I buy newzeldatitle when I still haven't beat ZeldaII?"
f te nyou'dbeabletomastertheAandBbuttonswellenoughtobea tthegame.
Maybeifyoupracticedusingthespacebaralittlemoreo
"But seeing as they don't how is this calculated?"
$50 x Inflated estimate of the number of copies 'pirated'.
"You can make the titlebars smaller in the Display/Appearance tab."
:P I just meant by default so the screenshots wouldn't look so fruity.
Heh yeah, I know.
"Is anyone concerned that MP/RIAA would want to know their "enemy" better in order to discover its weaknesses and close it down more effectively?"
If that's the case, they're already doing it now.
Frankly, I don't care. I'd be willing to pay for legit versions of movies or TV shows for download. I'm more worried about restrictions like "You can't copy it to your laptop after you've purchased it".
Actually, I replied to the right post, I made the wrong quote. Guess I didn't hit ctrl+C properly.
"Task manager: Shift, Control, Escape."
Alt + Ctrl + Delete does it too, but sometimes I want to use my mouse. (Like when I'm using my TabletPC in slate mode, for example.)
"Make it NOT look like froofy pastel crap that makes people violently ill!"
If you right click in there, you can access the toolbar access stuff without bringing up the properties of that particular icon. That's not to say I disagree with you, but rather just pointing out that it's not completely 100% useless. (That's typically where I go when I either need the task manager or to unlock the taskbar.)
"Make it NOT look like froofy pastel crap that makes people violently ill!"
:P)
Err okay. The XP default scheme, though quite bold, is not pastel. (It's more like Fisher Price.
In all seriousness, it's not all that bad. I discovered that my biggest beef with that color scheme wasn't the colors used, but the wallpaper. I turned that black, and suddenly XP's interface isn't so bad. What's nice about it is that it's rather easy to tell which window is active or blinking. The difference between orange and blue is quite striking. Green is a nice highlight color as it has a decent contrast against blue.
I can understand the screenshots not looking so appealing, but having used it for a while now, I actually kind of like it. (Especially after getting rid of that damn wallpaper.) I wish by default the titlebars were smaller, but their color choice is fine.
"Truly, if you're into function over form, the Win2K interface is far more refined than the prettier, but painfully illogical backwards step that became XP. I am amazed, yet not surprised, at the number of people who are barely competent enough to create a desktop icon, but manage to figure out how to return to the "classic" style. I hope the next Windows interface will be a return to crisp function and logical work flow."
Can you elaborate a little bit on what you mean by 'painfully illogical backwards step'? For basic folder stuff, etc, XP's not that much different. The difference is mostly cosmetic. The start menu is questionably better or worse, depending on how you drive. It's great if you use 10 apps requently, it's an extra step if you blow past that. The Control Panel... er... I have no idea what they were thinking with that, but you're a click away from bringing it back.
Err okay I was just babbling for a moment. When you switch from XP's default to classic view, the main change to it is cosmetic, not functional. (Unless you can correct me on that, which I'd appreciate.) You still have your min/max/restore/and close Icons etc.
In the mean time, what XP does offer you is the ability to lock the taskbar. That little feature suddenly makes the toolbar a far more interesting UI tool. There's actually a lot you can do down there, but I don't think most people bothered with a whole lot because you could accidently drag it and mess up the order of everything.
One of my biggest usability changes in XP came from unlocking the taskbar and making effective use of the tabs inside it. No, I'm not just talking about Quicklaunch here. You can add different folders, including My Computer. For example, right now I have my drive letters exposed. I can right click on the C:\ drive and do a properties to get an idea of how much space I have left. I have two optical drives so at a glance I can see what discs are in there. (The name of the disc is put in place of the title.) I also have a 'shortcuts' folder I made (sort of like Quicklaunch) with a shortcut to that folder. Why is this useful? A.) it's easy to get at that folder so I can add remove stuff. B.) I'm constantly changing folders or files so I can quickly add stuff.
In short, I've made effective use of shortcuts etc using the taskbar. I don't have to do near as much folder surfing. On top of all that, the interface is pretty simple provided you know to unlock it first.
" important role Age of Empires has in education young people."
Ah yes, AoE has really embiggened our vocabulary hasn't it?
"So, is he saying that given the opportunity to capture this information, his company would? "
...?
Geez, talk about the 'glass half-empty'.
I have to ask, what would you rather hear: "I don't do it because I don't want to right now." --or-- "I don't do it because I can't, here's why."
"Now she gets all the benefits of that military and police protection, the roads, the schools, etc, but doesn't have to pay for any of it!"
Uh... if they recieved an inheritance, and that money had already had its taxes paid on, then they already have paid for it. It's money changing hands, not money suddenly appearing out of nowhere.
"Frankly, that's a retarded attitude, but a lot of lazy people share it."
Some of it is 'laziness', some of it is having a life-style that doesn't support having a sudden bill for $500.
Yes, people can take better care of their money. Yes, people can save, etc. Blah blah blah. The point is, it's not up to you to judge whether anybody is 'retarded' simply because they chose convenience.
(Note: I'm not saying you're wrong about the idea that it's not the wisest choice for the frugal, mainly I'm responding to the 'retarded attitude' but.)
"I'm hardly an audiophile and I have... Oh.. 3 times that? One can collect a lot of music pretty quick."
Maybe, but on the road you could make do with it.
Shit shit shit.
Sorry, I misread your post. When you said " they didn't claim 66 million. They claimed 300 million at GDC 200" I thought you meant Sony, not MS.
Okay, I promised it, you got it: I retract this comment: "Bullshit. Show me where Microsoft claimed 66 million polygons a second." Sorry about that.
" Microsoft is NOT the company to defend when comparing to Sony in that arena."
Hey, if you can show me where MS touted the XBOX as being several times more powerful than it could really be, I'll happily retract that statement.
Just to be clear: I'm not an XBOX or Microsoft fan. I'm coming from the point of view of somebody who's never heard MS make these sort of claims despite being more or less 'in the know'. I'm not kidding when I say I'll retract it, I just want a little proof.
"Please don't start bashing the movie until it has been released to the public and we've all seen it...THEN you may start the bashing."
Heh. "Arthur clearly said 'its' not 'his' in the book! THIS MOVIE SUCKS!!"
"Where by 'researched' I mean, 'typed in some swears without actually stopping to figure out what over half of the items you've quoted above actually meant'.
Said the guy who only replied to one of my many rebuttals.
Heh.
"Strickly speaking, Grissom, White, and Chaffee were not killed on the first Apollo "mission", but during a launch pad test in prep for the first Apollo flight. Since they hadn't launched..."
In the context of this discussion, does that distinction really matter?