I see this type of thing progressing very rapidly in the future. If there can be technological ways to circumvent IP restrictions (Freenet, gnutella, napster, et all), why not have technology to ENFORCE the same thing?
There is no way to stop freenet-like systems from propagating (cat's already out of the bag). Same thing with development of technology to "lockdown" information.
I see it all as a natural progression of things. I do believe "lockdown" tech will have limited use however, as people like their freedom.
How can a person like me really help the underdeveloped nations of the world? I don't think I have what it takes to go out to the starving masses and hand out food. However, I CAN take an old Pentium or even 486 and set up an e-commerce server, enabling individuals and companies in other countries to grab a little piece of the new global marketplace.
Remember the old adage (paraphrased as best I can remember), "Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime." I'm all for geekcorps... I'll be checking into their web site further to see how I can help.
With my.mp3.com, I could access my whole music collection from anyplace with an internet connection. I personally thought it was awesome. At work I could call up anything from my collection I wanted. Also, I did not have to worry about carrying the (very costly) CDs around.
as an added bonus, I was able to listen to music off of some of my CDs that were scratched beyond repair by listening to it off of mp3.com.
Also, internet bandwidth is increasing very rapidly. There will be plenty of bandwidth to go around.
all in all, my.mp3.com was a cool and useful service. Judge Rakoff's decision basically hands a little more music distribution monopoly power over to the RIAA. How sad.
The computing age is at it's beginning right now. It's only been a few years and things are moving along quite nicely. The whole point is, I love computers and the technology they provide us with. They are incredible tools and I've been programming (obsessed more like it) them since I was 6. Microsoft doesn't care about technology and innovation. They don't. Not at all. Microsoft is all about making money. In the process, Microsoft has sucked all the joy of programming away from the industry. They've turned it into a simple money-generating scheme. As long as you follow the "One Microsoft Way" and don't get in Bill's path you can make plenty of money and you don't have to know much about computers either! It's sad. And people have crowned old Bill king. After all, because of him you make your $80K a year and all you have to do is just keep reading up on the MS marketing materials (they call them "white papers" usually) and keep pushing their proprietary crap into your corporations. And of course renewing your MCSE every couple years (whever Microsoft decided it's time to "change technology" on everyone). I'll stop now. Microsoft IS bad for the computing industry, but in a way we needed them as an example of what NOT to be (sorta like the whole Hitler/Nazi thing, but we won't go there).
Except this isn't "just a lobbyist". It's RALPH REED dammit. One of the most instrumental people in opposing moral progress in America. Darkness really is creeping throughout the land...
I agree 100%. I never would have thought so many/.ers would be scared to death of free information exchange.
And you are right... there is nothing anyone can do to stop it at this point. Other than bringing the whole net down or imposing insane restrictions, there is nothing anyone can do to stop the free-flow of information.
IANAL but I believe the act of knowingly running software which
provides illegal content on request would keep you from being able to argue that the process was automatic and entirely the responsibility of the user which requested the information.
Hmmm... Apache could be considered thus. Apache is software that can provide illegal content on request. Should every person that runs Apache be prosecutable because there are some people out there serving child porn from Apache servers?
When you run a freenet server, you don't have access to the information that is stored on your computer (it's encrypted). Just because it *might* house illegal (in the eyes of the government) information doesn't mean you *are* holding illegal information.
In the final scheme of things, the internet as a whole is uncensorable (short of bringing the whole thing down). As long as I can send and receive information on the net freely censorship is impossible.
In the attack against Yahoo, ONE computer could generate many thousands of hits all by itself. You would only need a few dozen machines to generate millions of hits an hour.
Using freenet, one computer could effectively generate only a few hits before the attack from that machine would be nullified (because of the "caching" action of freenet)
To generate the equivalent of "millions of hits" in the freenet system you would need many 1000s of computer systems all located remotely from each other.
There is no way for someone to determine who originally posted the data file. Knowing topology, node IP addresses, and node contents will not help you determine who made the post originally. (The amazing thing is that someone actually marked this post "Interesting")
I knew that point would come up. It's impossible to flood a system with requests for data because as soon as you start making lots of requests for the bogus data, the bogus data is replicated closer to the machine requesting the bogus data.
The bogus data will thus not be replicated very much at all because bogus data will move "closer" to the computer requesting the bogus data.
In a system like this, you would have to have to have a VERY distributed attack and it would have to be on a relatively unpopular peice of information. A very popular peice of information would never be attackable.
I believe that Freenet will ultimately be immune from DOS attacks on both the front (data submission) and back (data retreival) ends. It will take quite a bit of work before it's funcitoning properly... it is just a matter of time before Freenet (or a system like it) is perfected and cencorship will then be (damn near) impossible.
You can dump crap data onto freenet all you want, but the data will never propigate itself as long as noone is requesting it.
That's the whole key to the system... if noone wants "DataX", "DataX" will not be copied to other machines. Junk data will just wither and die and only tend to take down YOUR FreeNet node...noone elses.
As far as bogus files, Ian said (you READ the interview, didn't you?) that they are working on a system for tagging bogus information as such.
You said:
this is a key vulnerability of Freenet -- it can be saturated with bogus/misleading information quickly and easily
I am NOT convinced of this at all. Bogus and misleading information is not going to saturate the network because noone wants bogus/misleading information--and the system is specifically designed to only propigate information that IS wanted. Therefore, bogus/misleading information will ultimately wither and die.
I think FreeNet is an exciting project and I hope that Ian's vision comes to fruition.
Have you tried downloading some skins and using them yet? I find it amazing the things that can be done, and Mozilla is just starting out.
I'll be the first to agree that it's been a long wait. I nearly gave up. However, I'm excited to see some of the incredible things Mozilla is already capable of.
I suspect they didn't start out aiming at making Mozilla a "platform". They started by making a set of tools. As more and more tools were created to aid in the creation of the browser, a "platform" appeared as a natural result.
I suspect Richard Garriot had no problem with porting to Linux.
In fact, there IS (was?) a Linux UO client, but unfortunately, it was poorly done and totally unsupported.
Personally, I suspect Richard was tired of having his hands tied by a huge company and their overbearing marketing department.
QUESTION: Do you suppose UO2 has anything to do with this? Ultima 9 was in flop according to many long-time ultima fans. It was marketed to look very pretty, but in the end the gameplay was shitty compared to the older ultima's (Ultima V - Wa-Hoo!). Maybe UO2 is gearing up to perform similar to U9?
MP3s are allowing anyone to publish their music for virtually no cost.
Every time a company (mp3.com in this case) does something that extends the capability of mp3 (makes them easier to use and access), SOMEONE in the current music industry ends up sueing.
The reason is simple. Technology has made "the old way" obsolete. Now in order to hold onto their $millions (or $billions) they need to rely on the court system to slow down every else while the established players "get up and running".
I has everything to do with protecting their income, controling the industry and forcing everyone to do things "the old way".
I honestly don't know why so many people here on slashdot want to defend multi-millionaires from the big bad internet. If technology is hurting your $millions a year income then you better get with it or lose.
One last note. "worked hard and put his stuff out into the world as a priviege, not a right, with the understanding that isn't on his terms"... blah blah blah. He didn't have to release his music for general consumption, you are right. However, if he had NOT released his music, he wouldn't be the multi-millionaire he is today and wouldn't even be having the capability to sue.
The exchange of information will ultimatly become infinate. If people can't find a way to prosper in an age of free information, it's their own damn problem, not the problem of those who HAVE figured it out.
I see and full-heartedly agree with your analogy. Just want to carry your thoughts a step further
Let say we come up with really good ways to clean up messes in the environment using bacteria or trees or genetically altered rabbits, whatever.
Next thing you know, Jerry Bigbucks (CEO of Brown Sludge Inc)discovers that Product X can be produced in a highly polluting fashion and then just plant some trees or place some bacteria to get rid of resulting mess. Mr. Bigbucks ends up saving a lot of money. If anyone complains about the pollution, they just have to commission a study that states the cleanup made things just as clean (or cleaner!) as if there was no pollution in the first place (study paid for by Brown Sludge, Inc, of course). Seems like a lot of room for abuse.
Ultimately, a "medicine for the environment" is a very valuable thing for enviromental accidents. However, it will never be a substitute for keeping pollution down in the first place.
Why? Because as soon as you allow Brown Sludge Inc. (BSI) to sponser "cleanups" rather than forcing environmental responsibility in the first place, the company will start ignoring pollution issues (because it's in their best interest (money-wise) to do so). The pollution generated will be a little more, then a bit more, then a bit more.
All the while, Clean Tree Inc. (CTI) and Bacterial Waste Management (BWM) will get contracts from BSI to clean up after the company. As BSI's generates more and more pollution, CTI and BWM just create more trees and stronger sludge-eating bacteria.
In the end, we will end up with sludge eating bacteria that suddely decide they like eating automobiles or electronics more than toxic sludge. Or trees that have learned to purge themselves quickly of toxins (by emitting them in the air of course).
So many bad things can happen with this. It's much better to try to stay clean in the first place. Use ecological engineering like this as little as possible.
Lame? R U frickin' crazy!! This unit sounds wonderful and with a few fine tunings and give 'em a few more years, this TIVO thingy is gonna be all the rage. I wish I had a shit-load of money to invest in the company producing them or at least get in on some stocks that are going to soar through the roof in the next few years. Technology is wonderful! (I just hope it doesn't make Americans TOO fat and lazy)
I *knew* we'd have people complaining about how this "isn't anything new", "been done before", etc. etc. blah blah blah.
You guys need to remember, Katz comes from a media background. For those with a media background, what he writes about here is both significant and interesting. The whole world of mass media is being turned on it's head as a result of the internet.
Now the problem here is, most of us (Linux) geeks have already seen the world of information being turned upside down. We read Katz articles and automatically respond, "Well, Duh, of course that is what is happening." because we saw it coming a long time ago.
There are a lot of bozos in modern media that are just not realizing what we've known for a couple years already. The Old Media *is* dying off and being replaced by something much better.
---
All that said, I'm beginning to see where many of the people here on/. don't like Katz because he doesn't write for geeks. He writes for large, non-technical *users* of technology, not the tech-savvy creators of technology. I almost get the impression all his "writting skills for geeks" were learned at Wired. By writting on/. he's reaching a large crowd, but his writting is a bit out of place here. Not only that, many of us find his writing condescending.
However, I am just tired to death of all the whining that goes on. You may nicely preface your comment with "not Anti-Katz", but then you espouse nothing but "Anti-Katz" during your post.
An appeal, all of those who want nothing more than to bitch about Katz, GO NOW to your/. preferences and turn him off. (Fat chance it'll happen, but I can wish, can't I?)
I have a female character on Ultima Online that I enjoy playing now and then. It is an interesting experience because other males in the game tend to flirt more with females. I've had numerous role playing experiences where I ended up becoming friends in the game and the other person was unaware of my (male) status in real life.
At first I felt somehow dishonest by playing a female character... like I was lying to someone. After a while I got over it. After all, it is "just for fun". (Besides, sometimes I think about half of the females in the game are men in RL anyway.)
Corrupt, money-grubbing, marketing driven entertainment industry scared to death because it's death toll is sounding
A LOT of technology loving, big-corporate hating geeks that are actively pushing for death of "the industry" (in it's current form).
In this clash, we (geeks) are ultimately going to "win" (get what we want) because that's the way it everything is naturally progressing.
The old entertainment industry only makes sense when cost of distrubution is significant.
The new entertainment industry will follow TOTALLY different rules because distrubution costs are quickly approaching zero.
Once entertainment distrubution costs nothing, the only way "the industry" can hold onto it's income is by artifical means.
Wha-LA! DVD encryption. A way for the old industry to maintain it's strangle-hold using technology. Now that the technology has failed to uphold their artifical distrubution controls, they pull out the guns (force, in the form of Government).
I'm not totally convinced. Right now, Loki is in a position where it's benificial for Blizzard (and others) to go through them for a port, because other companies just don't have the Linux developer power to do it. However, this could change--I guess it depends on how Loki is getting their money. I assume they get paid per unit of software sold (as opposed to a lump sum for doing the port). If the (Linux) numbers sold become very high, the original software companies are going to realize this and say "hell, we could do the port ourselves and keep all the money!". It seems to be a balancing act for Loki.
Please note: I like Loki and would prefer that they continue doing these ports for 3 reasons. (1) they believed in Linux when other companies were ignoring it, (2) they are more experienced with doing the ports and probably can put out a better product and (3) Loki is giving value to Linux by releasing code to the community.
Slashdot Mirror
Napster does not store copyrighted information. This site does. Not the same situation.
Agreed. But how many people are going to go to loose their ass or go to prison before our government realizes this?
I see this type of thing progressing very rapidly in the future. If there can be technological ways to circumvent IP restrictions (Freenet, gnutella, napster, et all), why not have technology to ENFORCE the same thing?
There is no way to stop freenet-like systems from propagating (cat's already out of the bag). Same thing with development of technology to "lockdown" information.
I see it all as a natural progression of things. I do believe "lockdown" tech will have limited use however, as people like their freedom.
Remember the old adage (paraphrased as best I can remember), "Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime." I'm all for geekcorps... I'll be checking into their web site further to see how I can help.
as an added bonus, I was able to listen to music off of some of my CDs that were scratched beyond repair by listening to it off of mp3.com.
Also, internet bandwidth is increasing very rapidly. There will be plenty of bandwidth to go around.
all in all, my.mp3.com was a cool and useful service. Judge Rakoff's decision basically hands a little more music distribution monopoly power over to the RIAA. How sad.
The computing age is at it's beginning right now. It's only been a few years and things are moving along quite nicely. The whole point is, I love computers and the technology they provide us with. They are incredible tools and I've been programming (obsessed more like it) them since I was 6. Microsoft doesn't care about technology and innovation. They don't. Not at all. Microsoft is all about making money. In the process, Microsoft has sucked all the joy of programming away from the industry. They've turned it into a simple money-generating scheme. As long as you follow the "One Microsoft Way" and don't get in Bill's path you can make plenty of money and you don't have to know much about computers either! It's sad. And people have crowned old Bill king. After all, because of him you make your $80K a year and all you have to do is just keep reading up on the MS marketing materials (they call them "white papers" usually) and keep pushing their proprietary crap into your corporations. And of course renewing your MCSE every couple years (whever Microsoft decided it's time to "change technology" on everyone). I'll stop now. Microsoft IS bad for the computing industry, but in a way we needed them as an example of what NOT to be (sorta like the whole Hitler/Nazi thing, but we won't go there).
Except this isn't "just a lobbyist". It's RALPH REED dammit. One of the most instrumental people in opposing moral progress in America. Darkness really is creeping throughout the land...
BG: With the help of Microsoft, has tried to keep us in a "computing dark-ages" by pushing bad operating systems
RR: Wants to take away your social freedoms
BG: Wants to take away your computing freedoms
RR: Thinks God is on his side
BG: Doesn't give a shit whose side God is on, as long as he has money and power
RR: Makes me want to swear whenver I hear his name
BG: Makes me swear whenever I use his products
RR: One of the perfectly corrupt by-products of 80s Reagan-era greed
BG: Ditto
And to see all of them tied together with Governor Bush just makes me ache inside. Ugh
And you are right... there is nothing anyone can do to stop it at this point. Other than bringing the whole net down or imposing insane restrictions, there is nothing anyone can do to stop the free-flow of information.
Anonymous communications is already possible via the postal service. Just write up a letter and drop it off at any post office mailbox.
When you run a freenet server, you don't have access to the information that is stored on your computer (it's encrypted). Just because it *might* house illegal (in the eyes of the government) information doesn't mean you *are* holding illegal information.
In the final scheme of things, the internet as a whole is uncensorable (short of bringing the whole thing down). As long as I can send and receive information on the net freely censorship is impossible.
Using freenet, one computer could effectively generate only a few hits before the attack from that machine would be nullified (because of the "caching" action of freenet)
To generate the equivalent of "millions of hits" in the freenet system you would need many 1000s of computer systems all located remotely from each other.
There is no way for someone to determine who originally posted the data file. Knowing topology, node IP addresses, and node contents will not help you determine who made the post originally. (The amazing thing is that someone actually marked this post "Interesting")
The bogus data will thus not be replicated very much at all because bogus data will move "closer" to the computer requesting the bogus data.
In a system like this, you would have to have to have a VERY distributed attack and it would have to be on a relatively unpopular peice of information. A very popular peice of information would never be attackable.
I believe that Freenet will ultimately be immune from DOS attacks on both the front (data submission) and back (data retreival) ends. It will take quite a bit of work before it's funcitoning properly... it is just a matter of time before Freenet (or a system like it) is perfected and cencorship will then be (damn near) impossible.
That's the whole key to the system... if noone wants "DataX", "DataX" will not be copied to other machines. Junk data will just wither and die and only tend to take down YOUR FreeNet node...noone elses.
As far as bogus files, Ian said (you READ the interview, didn't you?) that they are working on a system for tagging bogus information as such.
I am NOT convinced of this at all. Bogus and misleading information is not going to saturate the network because noone wants bogus/misleading information--and the system is specifically designed to only propigate information that IS wanted. Therefore, bogus/misleading information will ultimately wither and die.
I think FreeNet is an exciting project and I hope that Ian's vision comes to fruition.
I'll be the first to agree that it's been a long wait. I nearly gave up. However, I'm excited to see some of the incredible things Mozilla is already capable of.
I suspect they didn't start out aiming at making Mozilla a "platform". They started by making a set of tools. As more and more tools were created to aid in the creation of the browser, a "platform" appeared as a natural result.
I suspect Richard Garriot had no problem with porting to Linux.
In fact, there IS (was?) a Linux UO client, but unfortunately, it was poorly done and totally unsupported.
Personally, I suspect Richard was tired of having his hands tied by a huge company and their overbearing marketing department.
QUESTION: Do you suppose UO2 has anything to do with this? Ultima 9 was in flop according to many long-time ultima fans. It was marketed to look very pretty, but in the end the gameplay was shitty compared to the older ultima's (Ultima V - Wa-Hoo!). Maybe UO2 is gearing up to perform similar to U9?
MP3s are allowing anyone to publish their music for virtually no cost.
Every time a company (mp3.com in this case) does something that extends the capability of mp3 (makes them easier to use and access), SOMEONE in the current music industry ends up sueing.
The reason is simple. Technology has made "the old way" obsolete. Now in order to hold onto their $millions (or $billions) they need to rely on the court system to slow down every else while the established players "get up and running".
I has everything to do with protecting their income, controling the industry and forcing everyone to do things "the old way".
I honestly don't know why so many people here on slashdot want to defend multi-millionaires from the big bad internet. If technology is hurting your $millions a year income then you better get with it or lose.
One last note. "worked hard and put his stuff out into the world as a priviege, not a right, with the understanding that isn't on his terms"... blah blah blah. He didn't have to release his music for general consumption, you are right. However, if he had NOT released his music, he wouldn't be the multi-millionaire he is today and wouldn't even be having the capability to sue.
The exchange of information will ultimatly become infinate. If people can't find a way to prosper in an age of free information, it's their own damn problem, not the problem of those who HAVE figured it out.
Let say we come up with really good ways to clean up messes in the environment using bacteria or trees or genetically altered rabbits, whatever.
Next thing you know, Jerry Bigbucks (CEO of Brown Sludge Inc)discovers that Product X can be produced in a highly polluting fashion and then just plant some trees or place some bacteria to get rid of resulting mess. Mr. Bigbucks ends up saving a lot of money. If anyone complains about the pollution, they just have to commission a study that states the cleanup made things just as clean (or cleaner!) as if there was no pollution in the first place (study paid for by Brown Sludge, Inc, of course). Seems like a lot of room for abuse.
Ultimately, a "medicine for the environment" is a very valuable thing for enviromental accidents. However, it will never be a substitute for keeping pollution down in the first place.
Why? Because as soon as you allow Brown Sludge Inc. (BSI) to sponser "cleanups" rather than forcing environmental responsibility in the first place, the company will start ignoring pollution issues (because it's in their best interest (money-wise) to do so). The pollution generated will be a little more, then a bit more, then a bit more.
All the while, Clean Tree Inc. (CTI) and Bacterial Waste Management (BWM) will get contracts from BSI to clean up after the company. As BSI's generates more and more pollution, CTI and BWM just create more trees and stronger sludge-eating bacteria.
In the end, we will end up with sludge eating bacteria that suddely decide they like eating automobiles or electronics more than toxic sludge. Or trees that have learned to purge themselves quickly of toxins (by emitting them in the air of course).
So many bad things can happen with this. It's much better to try to stay clean in the first place. Use ecological engineering like this as little as possible.
Lame? R U frickin' crazy!! This unit sounds wonderful and with a few fine tunings and give 'em a few more years, this TIVO thingy is gonna be all the rage. I wish I had a shit-load of money to invest in the company producing them or at least get in on some stocks that are going to soar through the roof in the next few years. Technology is wonderful! (I just hope it doesn't make Americans TOO fat and lazy)
...some other company creating the same thing in a different country that doesn't have US restrictions?
You guys need to remember, Katz comes from a media background. For those with a media background, what he writes about here is both significant and interesting. The whole world of mass media is being turned on it's head as a result of the internet.
Now the problem here is, most of us (Linux) geeks have already seen the world of information being turned upside down. We read Katz articles and automatically respond, "Well, Duh, of course that is what is happening." because we saw it coming a long time ago.
There are a lot of bozos in modern media that are just not realizing what we've known for a couple years already. The Old Media *is* dying off and being replaced by something much better.
---
All that said, I'm beginning to see where many of the people here on /. don't like Katz because he doesn't write for geeks. He writes for large, non-technical *users* of technology, not the tech-savvy creators of technology. I almost get the impression all his "writting skills for geeks" were learned at Wired. By writting on /. he's reaching a large crowd, but his writting is a bit out of place here. Not only that, many of us find his writing condescending.
However, I am just tired to death of all the whining that goes on. You may nicely preface your comment with "not Anti-Katz", but then you espouse nothing but "Anti-Katz" during your post.
An appeal, all of those who want nothing more than to bitch about Katz, GO NOW to your /. preferences and turn him off. (Fat chance it'll happen, but I can wish, can't I?)
At first I felt somehow dishonest by playing a female character... like I was lying to someone. After a while I got over it. After all, it is "just for fun". (Besides, sometimes I think about half of the females in the game are men in RL anyway.)
- Corrupt, money-grubbing, marketing driven entertainment industry scared to death because it's death toll is sounding
- A LOT of technology loving, big-corporate hating geeks that are actively pushing for death of "the industry" (in it's current form).
In this clash, we (geeks) are ultimately going to "win" (get what we want) because that's the way it everything is naturally progressing.The old entertainment industry only makes sense when cost of distrubution is significant.
The new entertainment industry will follow TOTALLY different rules because distrubution costs are quickly approaching zero.
Once entertainment distrubution costs nothing, the only way "the industry" can hold onto it's income is by artifical means.
Wha-LA! DVD encryption. A way for the old industry to maintain it's strangle-hold using technology. Now that the technology has failed to uphold their artifical distrubution controls, they pull out the guns (force, in the form of Government).
That's how I see it at least.
Please note: I like Loki and would prefer that they continue doing these ports for 3 reasons. (1) they believed in Linux when other companies were ignoring it, (2) they are more experienced with doing the ports and probably can put out a better product and (3) Loki is giving value to Linux by releasing code to the community.