Re:What have we discovered in this exercise?
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RC5-64 Success
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But didn't we do that months, even years ago? How much has the distributed.net infrastructure improved over the last 2 years? I think it's time to find something useful (and I disagree that SETI qualifies) or call it quits. Maybe protein folding, but the question becomes whether or not the cost in power usage alone would be better spent in some other way.
Sponsored by your local electric company...
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RC5-64 Success
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· Score: 3, Insightful
I see nothing in the GPL saying that you should call a fork of a program the same name as the program itself. PostNuke doesn't call itself PHPNuke/PostNuke. EGCS doesn't call itself GCC/EGCS.
Linus forked GNU, added a kernel, and called the resulting OS linux. The fact that the kernel happens to have the same name of the OS is irrelevant.
Am interested. For what reason did you research into this before?
Because I'm very interested in alternative energy. Believe it or not, I voted for Nader, and consider myself an environmentalist. But I'm also a realist, and for the amount of power that we use, there just isn't a silver bullet. The only real solution is to conserve.
Oh ok, just drop it then, okay by me, saves me the time and energy of coming up with any hard-facts myself - which I guess means that I will shit less and do my little bit for the environment, good old mother earth, bless her, but not for very much longer.
Well, really it all comes down to what you consider pollution, and what you consider the cost of pollution to the earth. Personally I probably consider it much lower than you do, I'm probably much less afraid of the earth not being here "for very much longer," if that's what you were implying.
Can you post in the right place please, it get's very confusing, there's a lot of you on this thread.
I posted in the right place, but when threads get too long slashdot messes up the indentation.
Hang on a minute, surely you shouldn't go around making statements like that without being able to back them up. If you can produce hard facts to prove this, then I will happily bother to find some hard-facts to disprove them.
I've researched into this before, but I don't have any of the information sitting in front of me. As such I'll just drop that part of the argument.
I don't have any to hand, but surely there is a awful lot of inefficiency in the process of manufacturing soybean oil in the first place and this includes the barrel or can or bottle or whatever it comes in, the nice label, the crates, the trucks (and possibly boats or planes) that you use to transport the oil to the hippie festival and also all the people required to grow it, process it, bottle it, crate it, ship it, drive the trucks, sell the stuff and they all then all produce quite a lot of shit too.
The same could be said about the bike riders' diets. Of course both are dependent on the specific way in which the fuel was obtained.
Preferably the genetically engineered kind, since that's a lot more efficiently grown.
erm for a start it's it's not that's.
Hmm, I'm not sure I agree. "that's" seems perfectly acceptable. "that" refering to "the genetically engineered kind."
Anyway, fair comment, but can you explain to me how or rather what way or rather in who's opinion is is more efficiently grown?
I thought the whole point of genetic engineering was to produce a crop which is more efficiently grown. I guess it depends what kind of genetic mutations you were talking about. For one example, some plants are genetically engineered to be resistant to herbicides. This allows a farmer to grow more crops in less space, and with less energy expended, which certainly sounds like an environmentally friendly goal to me.
Huh? Are you hitting me with non sequiturs again? Oh, you mean that it's not perfect? The solution to that is to perfect it, of course, not to throw out the whole system. Economic bads should be taxed. Economic goods should be government subsidized.
Depending how much fuel you had the diesel generator could obviously have run 24x7.
But the problem is that you're in the middle of a green festival in the middle of the country and you can't use your car to get more diesel to feed the generator, and you've removed one of the wheels from your bicycle to power your laptop!
"The fuel consumption for the diesel generator is 10KWH per gallon." So at 200 watts per hour, 5 gallons would last over 10 days.
But had you run it (using soybean oil) to generate enough energy for 5-6 hours, you likely would have created less pollution than the bicycle generator.
Seriously though, do you have any hard facts to back this up?, sounds interesting.
Nope. Do you have any hard facts to suggest that I'm wrong?
Is that the corporately controlled, modified by genetic engineering, then sold back to the third world and tree-hugging hippies everywhere type of soya oil?
Preferably the genetically engineered kind, since that's a lot more efficiently grown.
It's a matter of time to see if consumers will flat-out reject this new 'enabling' technology, or let it seep into and infect their lives like the disease that it is.
How does this shit get through the editors? timothy, welcome back to my block list (I had you on for several months and put you back hoping you'd gotten better).
Therefore it all seems to depend on what you view as valuable: money or something extremely useful or important.
Huh? What does this have to do with anything?
Only after the last tree has been cut down, only after the last river has been poisoned, only after the last fish has been caught, only then will you find that money can not be eaten. ~ Cree Indian Prophecy.
What do you want me to say about this? Why don't you start by telling me what point you're trying to make. Are you trying to disprove capitalism, or something?
True, so listing posts made as AC wouldn't be a risk, if only the original poster could see their AC posts... Can we request changes to slashcode? This sounds like a good feature.
I'd definately be willing to write it. Hell, I'd like AC posts to even be Karmaized. I know big brother slashdot knows who I am when I post anonymously, I just don't want the general public to know.
except that we dont - does the lcoal factory pay for the air pollution it causes?
Yep - through taxes.
uses? does mcblondblands pay for the increased health costs of its obese patients [presumably you meant customers]?
Yes. Through lowered demand and therefore lower product costs.
patients? does the auto-driver (solely) pay the cost of the roads (s)he uses?
Sure, through gasoline taxes.
does the yacht owner pay for the oil he spills in the lake?
Yep, when s/he gets sued.
does the gap pay to replace the forest that was cut to grow cotton for the 1231th needless pc of clothing the average-western-teenager DOESNT NEED (it brainwashes the unwashed masses to believe they NEED %something%)?
Yep, they pay for that cost when they buy the cotton.
does the local starbucks come and pick up the trash-paper-cups from my yard?
The ones that they put there? They sure better. On the other hand, if you put the cups there, that's your problem.
so, in the end, we have a economic system that doesnt account - completely - for all the costs... our Capitalist system EXTERNALIZES and SOCIALIZES costs and INTERNALIZES profit.
It's not quite perfect. There are still a few economic goods/bads which we don't account for, but you haven't come up with any of them.
do you see the disconnect?
Yeah, I've taken Economics classes, and you haven't.
Andrew Odlyzko, the director of the Digital Technology Center at the University of Minnesota, says that the cost to the service provider of transmitting a data file the size of a typical DVD movie over the Internet could be nearly $20.
Sure, if you unicast it. Alternatively, you can use a satellite and distribute it to millions of people all at the same time...
The answer is simple enough, and I note that you have availed yourself of it, register and score a goal. Even in a sporting event you must *register.* How else are they going to figure out *who* did what in the game and deserves what merits or penalties?
I don't think you understand my point. I'm not arguing against ACs gettting penalized.
Posting as an AC essentially says " I *don't intend* to take personal credit for my actions, bad or good."
As does going on an airplane without showing ID.
One of the things that distinguishes/. as a community though is the fact that participation is entirely *voluntary,* even for AC's.
Are you suggesting that flying on a plane is not voluntary? I don't understand.
My point is that people who are anonymous are generally less trustworthy than people who are not.
Carbon dioxide, piss, and shit, mainly. Then all the indirect costs of how that person obtained the food s/he's eating. But we'll assume that's factored into the cost of the food, I guess.
New carbon dioxide emissions are not produced by humans or soybean-diesel, they are both part of the carbon cycle. What pollution are you actually talking about?
New compared to what? And what does new have to do with whether or not it's pollution?
just as you cant brand Treehuggers hypocrites. Simple.
I admitted I was wrong for making that statement.
Organic, locally produced foods are unprocessed, better for you (free of chemicals), more-nutritionally-rich (fresher),
You don't back any of that up (and it depends on the resturant), but in any case, I'm talking solely about environmental impact.
better for the environment (dont contribute to pollution),
How so? I don't see the alternative case for chain resturants, unless you're talking about transportation costs...
dont require transportation (ie: boxed and driven across hell's-half-acre),
As I live in New Jersey this is pretty much required anyway, but I certainly agree that this is an advantage of locally grown food. But I'm not sure it exceeds the disadvantages, which come from the economies of scale of central food growing and preparation.
as for chain foods, they [...] use disposable everything
Not all chain resturants "use disposable everything"
chain-restaurants are a product (and source) of marketing bombardment and encourage consumer culture, these are also wasteful.
In what way? I assume you're talking about environmental impact.
...as for communal cooking (or central food-prep) vs. individual cooking... im sure a Intentional Community's central cooking facility one within a short walk of a few hundred people is an environmental benefit.
So what's the difference? Just because someone's making a profit all of a sudden it's not environmentally sound?
But im willing to bet that the idea that everyone should jump in their Internal-Combustion-Engine powered car and drive down to a %burger_joint% far overcomes the savings in your proposed-scenario.
I never said anything about jumping in your internal-combustion-engine powered car.
Anyway, we already have a system for determining the cost to society of a product we buy. That is - the cost of the product! There are certain things that need to be done to factor in the costs of economic bads, such as the pollution caused in the transportation of the product, but guess what, the diesel that powers those transportation vehicles is taxed to reflect those economic bads!
BTW. I was involved in this. I think it demonstrated this: using solely solar cells and batteries we were able to run the net access for 2-3 hours a day (given that, as per usual for England, it was pretty overcast most of the time).
And it also demonstrated that those 2-3 hours a day aren't enough for even the environmental hippies. In other words, it demonstrated that solar power is simply not sufficient (for even those professing to care the most about the environment).
When we used the bicycle generator, we were able to run for 5-6 hours, which effectively doubled the amount of access we could give. Had we run with a diesel generator, then we might have done 12 hours a day and obviously mains would have given us 24x7.
Depending how much fuel you had the diesel generator could obviously have run 24x7. But had you run it (using soybean oil) to generate enough energy for 5-6 hours, you likely would have created less pollution than the bicycle generator.
Last thing, we're not saying that this IS the way forward at all
So put a fat guy on the bike who needs the excersize anyway.
There aren't enough "fat guys" (or bikes) to come anywhere near the kind of energy consumption this country needs. But hey, the same argument could be made for biodiesel. Just use old McDonalds waste oil. But just like the supply of fat guys, that's a short-sighted solution, because it'll take a very small chunk out of our current energy needs.
Now you're using energy that would have been wasted.
Unless you're advocating forced labor, it's not energy that would have been wasted.
You seem to be forgetting that the humans are going to be breathing whether you burn extra fuel or not.
Humans breathe much heavier when riding a bike. They also burn more in calories.
What, that the environmentalists are hypocrites who waste just as much energy as the rest of us
Well, without engaging your 8th grade debate technique, Ill simply say your probably pretty wrong.
Touche, I was being hyperbolic.
Im not greener-than-though pal, but I resent the implied justification for your OWN ACTIONS you present by calling someone a hypocrite.
What actions are that? You don't know me, and you don't know what my actions are.
By organic groceries and support local farmers. Dont eat at chain-restaurants.
Do you have any data backing up whether or not that is more energy efficient? I would think that communal cooking would be much more energy efficient than individualized cooking.
Perhaps if wedid move to personal poewr generation along the lines of a pedal power generator, or a bank of solar cells on the roof, appliances might become more energy efficient?
More likely we simply would have to give up on many appliances. I mean, in general yes, if you raise the cost of energy, you are going to see more energy efficient products, but so what? I'm all for keeping reasonable taxes on pollution producing products, but beyond that the free market will take care of utilizing our resources in the most efficient manner.
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But didn't we do that months, even years ago? How much has the distributed.net infrastructure improved over the last 2 years? I think it's time to find something useful (and I disagree that SETI qualifies) or call it quits. Maybe protein folding, but the question becomes whether or not the cost in power usage alone would be better spent in some other way.
300 Watts * 1 million hours = 300,000 kilowatt hours. 300,000 kilowatt hours * $0.10 = $30,000.
I wonder how many U.S. and Iraqi soldiers died to make this great display of wasted energy possible.
Linux is not a UNIX-like OS. GNU/Linux is.
I see nothing in the GPL saying that you should call a fork of a program the same name as the program itself. PostNuke doesn't call itself PHPNuke/PostNuke. EGCS doesn't call itself GCC/EGCS.
Linus forked GNU, added a kernel, and called the resulting OS linux. The fact that the kernel happens to have the same name of the OS is irrelevant.
I know that I am considering joining the U.S. Air Force
Son, you're fuckin' high.
If I shout about nothing particulary coherent, why did you put me on your friend list?
Am interested. For what reason did you research into this before?
Because I'm very interested in alternative energy. Believe it or not, I voted for Nader, and consider myself an environmentalist. But I'm also a realist, and for the amount of power that we use, there just isn't a silver bullet. The only real solution is to conserve.
Oh ok, just drop it then, okay by me, saves me the time and energy of coming up with any hard-facts myself - which I guess means that I will shit less and do my little bit for the environment, good old mother earth, bless her, but not for very much longer.
Well, really it all comes down to what you consider pollution, and what you consider the cost of pollution to the earth. Personally I probably consider it much lower than you do, I'm probably much less afraid of the earth not being here "for very much longer," if that's what you were implying.
Can you post in the right place please, it get's very confusing, there's a lot of you on this thread.
I posted in the right place, but when threads get too long slashdot messes up the indentation.
Hang on a minute, surely you shouldn't go around making statements like that without being able to back them up. If you can produce hard facts to prove this, then I will happily bother to find some hard-facts to disprove them.
I've researched into this before, but I don't have any of the information sitting in front of me. As such I'll just drop that part of the argument.
I don't have any to hand, but surely there is a awful lot of inefficiency in the process of manufacturing soybean oil in the first place and this includes the barrel or can or bottle or whatever it comes in, the nice label, the crates, the trucks (and possibly boats or planes) that you use to transport the oil to the hippie festival and also all the people required to grow it, process it, bottle it, crate it, ship it, drive the trucks, sell the stuff and they all then all produce quite a lot of shit too.
The same could be said about the bike riders' diets. Of course both are dependent on the specific way in which the fuel was obtained.
Preferably the genetically engineered kind, since that's a lot more efficiently grown.
erm for a start it's it's not that's .
Hmm, I'm not sure I agree. "that's" seems perfectly acceptable. "that" refering to "the genetically engineered kind."
Anyway, fair comment, but can you explain to me how or rather what way or rather in who's opinion is is more efficiently grown?
I thought the whole point of genetic engineering was to produce a crop which is more efficiently grown. I guess it depends what kind of genetic mutations you were talking about. For one example, some plants are genetically engineered to be resistant to herbicides. This allows a farmer to grow more crops in less space, and with less energy expended, which certainly sounds like an environmentally friendly goal to me.
Huh? Are you hitting me with non sequiturs again? Oh, you mean that it's not perfect? The solution to that is to perfect it, of course, not to throw out the whole system. Economic bads should be taxed. Economic goods should be government subsidized.
Depending how much fuel you had the diesel generator could obviously have run 24x7.
But the problem is that you're in the middle of a green festival in the middle of the country and you can't use your car to get more diesel to feed the generator, and you've removed one of the wheels from your bicycle to power your laptop!
"The fuel consumption for the diesel generator is 10KWH per gallon." So at 200 watts per hour, 5 gallons would last over 10 days.
But had you run it (using soybean oil) to generate enough energy for 5-6 hours, you likely would have created less pollution than the bicycle generator.
Seriously though, do you have any hard facts to back this up?, sounds interesting.
Nope. Do you have any hard facts to suggest that I'm wrong?
Is that the corporately controlled, modified by genetic engineering, then sold back to the third world and tree-hugging hippies everywhere type of soya oil?
Preferably the genetically engineered kind, since that's a lot more efficiently grown.
It's a matter of time to see if consumers will flat-out reject this new 'enabling' technology, or let it seep into and infect their lives like the disease that it is.
How does this shit get through the editors? timothy, welcome back to my block list (I had you on for several months and put you back hoping you'd gotten better).
Therefore it all seems to depend on what you view as valuable: money or something extremely useful or important.
Huh? What does this have to do with anything?
Only after the last tree has been cut down, only after the last river has been poisoned, only after the last fish has been caught, only then will you find that money can not be eaten. ~ Cree Indian Prophecy.
What do you want me to say about this? Why don't you start by telling me what point you're trying to make. Are you trying to disprove capitalism, or something?
sub useless_hype() {
#todo
return 0;
}
if (($story=~/Microsoft/)&&(!useless_hype($story) )) {
post($story);
} else {
reject($story);
}
True, so listing posts made as AC wouldn't be a risk, if only the original poster could see their AC posts... Can we request changes to slashcode? This sounds like a good feature.
I'd definately be willing to write it. Hell, I'd like AC posts to even be Karmaized. I know big brother slashdot knows who I am when I post anonymously, I just don't want the general public to know.
except that we dont - does the lcoal factory pay for the air pollution it causes?
Yep - through taxes.
uses? does mcblondblands pay for the increased health costs of its obese patients [presumably you meant customers]?
Yes. Through lowered demand and therefore lower product costs.
patients? does the auto-driver (solely) pay the cost of the roads (s)he uses?
Sure, through gasoline taxes.
does the yacht owner pay for the oil he spills in the lake?
Yep, when s/he gets sued.
does the gap pay to replace the forest that was cut to grow cotton for the 1231th needless pc of clothing the average-western-teenager DOESNT NEED (it brainwashes the unwashed masses to believe they NEED %something%)?
Yep, they pay for that cost when they buy the cotton.
does the local starbucks come and pick up the trash-paper-cups from my yard?
The ones that they put there? They sure better. On the other hand, if you put the cups there, that's your problem.
so, in the end, we have a economic system that doesnt account - completely - for all the costs... our Capitalist system EXTERNALIZES and SOCIALIZES costs and INTERNALIZES profit.
It's not quite perfect. There are still a few economic goods/bads which we don't account for, but you haven't come up with any of them.
do you see the disconnect?
Yeah, I've taken Economics classes, and you haven't.
Andrew Odlyzko, the director of the Digital Technology Center at the University of Minnesota, says that the cost to the service provider of transmitting a data file the size of a typical DVD movie over the Internet could be nearly $20.
Sure, if you unicast it. Alternatively, you can use a satellite and distribute it to millions of people all at the same time...
The leading broadband technology? Television.
The answer is simple enough, and I note that you have availed yourself of it, register and score a goal. Even in a sporting event you must *register.* How else are they going to figure out *who* did what in the game and deserves what merits or penalties?
I don't think you understand my point. I'm not arguing against ACs gettting penalized.
Posting as an AC essentially says " I *don't intend* to take personal credit for my actions, bad or good."
As does going on an airplane without showing ID.
One of the things that distinguishes /. as a community though is the fact that participation is entirely *voluntary,* even for AC's.
Are you suggesting that flying on a plane is not voluntary? I don't understand.
My point is that people who are anonymous are generally less trustworthy than people who are not.
Do you not piss and shit anthony?
Of course I do, but I do so more when I eat more, and when I exercise more I eat more.
What pollution does a bicycle generator produce?
Carbon dioxide, piss, and shit, mainly. Then all the indirect costs of how that person obtained the food s/he's eating. But we'll assume that's factored into the cost of the food, I guess.
New carbon dioxide emissions are not produced by humans or soybean-diesel, they are both part of the carbon cycle. What pollution are you actually talking about?
New compared to what? And what does new have to do with whether or not it's pollution?
just as you cant brand Treehuggers hypocrites. Simple.
I admitted I was wrong for making that statement.
Organic, locally produced foods are unprocessed, better for you (free of chemicals), more-nutritionally-rich (fresher),
You don't back any of that up (and it depends on the resturant), but in any case, I'm talking solely about environmental impact.
better for the environment (dont contribute to pollution),
How so? I don't see the alternative case for chain resturants, unless you're talking about transportation costs...
dont require transportation (ie: boxed and driven across hell's-half-acre),
As I live in New Jersey this is pretty much required anyway, but I certainly agree that this is an advantage of locally grown food. But I'm not sure it exceeds the disadvantages, which come from the economies of scale of central food growing and preparation.
as for chain foods, they [...] use disposable everything
Not all chain resturants "use disposable everything"
chain-restaurants are a product (and source) of marketing bombardment and encourage consumer culture, these are also wasteful.
In what way? I assume you're talking about environmental impact.
So what's the difference? Just because someone's making a profit all of a sudden it's not environmentally sound?
But im willing to bet that the idea that everyone should jump in their Internal-Combustion-Engine powered car and drive down to a %burger_joint% far overcomes the savings in your proposed-scenario.
I never said anything about jumping in your internal-combustion-engine powered car.
Anyway, we already have a system for determining the cost to society of a product we buy. That is - the cost of the product! There are certain things that need to be done to factor in the costs of economic bads, such as the pollution caused in the transportation of the product, but guess what, the diesel that powers those transportation vehicles is taxed to reflect those economic bads!
BTW. I was involved in this. I think it demonstrated this: using solely solar cells and batteries we were able to run the net access for 2-3 hours a day (given that, as per usual for England, it was pretty overcast most of the time).
And it also demonstrated that those 2-3 hours a day aren't enough for even the environmental hippies. In other words, it demonstrated that solar power is simply not sufficient (for even those professing to care the most about the environment).
When we used the bicycle generator, we were able to run for 5-6 hours, which effectively doubled the amount of access we could give. Had we run with a diesel generator, then we might have done 12 hours a day and obviously mains would have given us 24x7.
Depending how much fuel you had the diesel generator could obviously have run 24x7. But had you run it (using soybean oil) to generate enough energy for 5-6 hours, you likely would have created less pollution than the bicycle generator.
Last thing, we're not saying that this IS the way forward at all
I sure hope not, because it's a step backward.
So put a fat guy on the bike who needs the excersize anyway.
There aren't enough "fat guys" (or bikes) to come anywhere near the kind of energy consumption this country needs. But hey, the same argument could be made for biodiesel. Just use old McDonalds waste oil. But just like the supply of fat guys, that's a short-sighted solution, because it'll take a very small chunk out of our current energy needs.
Now you're using energy that would have been wasted.
Unless you're advocating forced labor, it's not energy that would have been wasted.
You seem to be forgetting that the humans are going to be breathing whether you burn extra fuel or not.
Humans breathe much heavier when riding a bike. They also burn more in calories.
Just goes to show the short-sightedness of you.
What, that the environmentalists are hypocrites who waste just as much energy as the rest of us
Well, without engaging your 8th grade debate technique, Ill simply say your probably pretty wrong.
Touche, I was being hyperbolic.
Im not greener-than-though pal, but I resent the implied justification for your OWN ACTIONS you present by calling someone a hypocrite.
What actions are that? You don't know me, and you don't know what my actions are.
By organic groceries and support local farmers. Dont eat at chain-restaurants.
Do you have any data backing up whether or not that is more energy efficient? I would think that communal cooking would be much more energy efficient than individualized cooking.
So is it your premise that when the ballgame starts everyone should be credited with a goal up front?
No, my premise is that if one team is credited with a goal up front, and the other team hasn't, that other team has received a penalty.
it already is... your IP is already recorded
Perhaps if wedid move to personal poewr generation along the lines of a pedal power generator, or a bank of solar cells on the roof, appliances might become more energy efficient?
More likely we simply would have to give up on many appliances. I mean, in general yes, if you raise the cost of energy, you are going to see more energy efficient products, but so what? I'm all for keeping reasonable taxes on pollution producing products, but beyond that the free market will take care of utilizing our resources in the most efficient manner.