In middle America, FOSS still faces the daunting ignorance that surrounds it intrinsically. We tend to believe that if it is free, it is stolen, or bad.
It's nice that you've appointed yourself the opinion spokesperson of middle america regarding open source. What would we do without you?
Ohio has a growing population of young hackers and tech-enthusiasts. I'm sure Ohio will have greater input into open source as this younger generation gains a foothold.
Random geographic region X has a growing population of young random_subject_x-enthusiasts. I'm sure random geographical region X will have greater input into random_subject_x as this young generation gains foothold.
I'm guessing that there's lots of people that use/enjoy Linux at Microsoft, but they just don't make it a religion.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if Microsoft started making software for Linux in the not too long-term future. At the end of the day Microsoft wants to make software and money - which is what they're supposed to do.
Hell, I wish Microsoft would put out a desktop for Linux, but that's way too much wishful thinking.
You mean open source doesn't solve every software problem?
I found the "religion" comment particularly amusing. I wonder how many managers have been turned off of open source because they have some employee running around screaming about source code freedom and writing stuff in emails like M$.
Oh, ok then it's a "social movement" according to the GPL FAQ. I'm talking about the Stallman groupie nutcases in any case.
Funny how any techie could rattle off at least a few well known and high profile cases of MS shafting it's "development partners". And yet you sit here and rattle off some crap about religious zealots and "not being so sure".
Linus got shafted by that idiot that reverse-engineered the bitkeeper protocol and works with him. What was your point again? Oh, that's right....the usual slashdweeb mantra of "Microsoft is evil"
Obviously you're too much an idiot to bother trying to explain anything to , or too much an asshole to bother with.
Translation: I'm a member of the Stallman cult
So here's a bone: Name 1 competing software manufacturer that MS has dealt with on a cooperative basis that MS hasn't stolen from, lied to, killed out right or simply aquired.
This refers to an interview with Cohen about greater cooperation with Microsoft and more proprietary software on Linux.
Linus, who works at OSDL, has always been a pragmatist and never believed in FSF/Stallman religion. The vast majority of people look at code/computers as a tool and/or a technical curiousity, not a cult.
He's 35, like Linus (Linus got his masters), carmack did a semester an a half. these guys are hardcore hackers. just pure let's push the fucking envelope and getting rich at the same time.
carmack is way beyond linus. carmack is in a world beyond himself. the dude writes engines (back in the day, before he had kids) like you wipe your ass. always writing engines to push the envelope. even sweeney considers carmack god. the dude is just a fucking machine.
thank you john, from another 35 year old...how time flys.
The freedom to deny others freedom clearly isn't in the spirit of the GPL
Once you grow up you'll realize how stupid that statement really is. To say that BSD code denies other freedom is beyond ridiculous, but hey with the paint chip eaters around here it's no wonder that crap is parroted.
There's no doubt that the preferred form of application distribution is the browser - and pretty much here to stay.
And frankly I don't see nice rich clients becoming ubiquitious unless either Avalon comes to Mozilla or some Mozilla technology gets into IE (unlikely).
Microsoft gave us XmlHTTPRequest which has spurred the big AJAX hype. It would be nice if they would open up some of their upcoming web technologies for everybody to use, but I'm not holding my breath.
I guess the only other hope is for Mozilla-based browsers to get enough of the market share to force Microsoft into complying - as they did with javascript.
I hate web apps. Even with AJAX they still suck. I'm eagerly anticipating the day when we can all have a rich client experience in the browser.
If you're looking over my shoulder every minute of the day, checking my email, checking my browsing I'm liable to punch you in the mouth, trash all the code i've written for you, and walk out.
The thing you forgot to mention is that the vast, vast majority of businesses are not in the software business. They are in another business where software is just a tool. So they don't really care about "open source", but they really care about free as in beer.
I don't have problem with open source, just with some of the advocates (or rather the "free software" advocates), who use source code to promote their socialist political agenda.
But I'm bright enough to realize how important their influence is on mitigating the excesses of bottom-line corporatism.
No, that veiled discredit of free markets is why France and Germany's economies suck. Too many germans and french think like you. Just remember there is no free lunch. If you want your socialism then be ready for the consequences.
His problem seems to be what some companies offer as a work environment. Yeah, if I had to come in at 8 everyday into some shitty little cube then I would want to work at home too.
But I don't. I can come in at any reasonable time I want and have a real office. And I'll always believe that having your teammates in the offices next to you will always be more productive than telecommuting.
There's a lot of benefits to actually popping into the office next to you and actually talking to your co-worker. It's higher bandwidth than e-mail or irc chat. And its also nice to be able to get a few guys together to start scrawling on the whiteboard. And a lot of our developers are smokers, so we go out to the warehouse to smoke and chitchat about some shitty customer problem we're having or querying about some code, and then both being at the same workstation to look at the debugger....
First of all, Joel's metric of what is a "great" programmer seems to be how fast they can crank out code.
So is programmer Mike really a great programmer if he's cranking out a thousand lines of code a day, but its unmaintainable spaghetti code, and he has a personality disorder so when his girlfriend dumps him he goes AWOL for a few weeks, and he doesn't get along with others, and his domain knowledge is limited to being a "great" programmer for certain types of projects....?
It's funny you bring that up because over at lamda-the-ultimate all the Smug Lisp Weenies (TM) have been replaced by Smug Haskell Weenies.
I'll never dig Lisp/Scheme prefix notation so I'll probably take a look at Haskell or O'Caml eventually.
Emacs and Vim (I love vim) just aren't suited for IDEs. They're still stuck in a console world no matter what kind of gui is slapped on the front end. Last time I checked Emacs/Xemacs on Unix still didn't have xft fonts, and Vim has so many obscure platforms it supports that it's limited on what it can do.
Once linux on the desktop is relevant, they'll care, but until then they're putting all their resources into their windows drivers.
My main machine is a desktop replacement (pre-upgradeable video cards), and is an ATI 9600. Nice card on windows. Plays FarCry and Counterstrike pretty well, but quake3 on linux is another story.
Next time I'll be sure to get Nvidia. Of course, by that time ATI will probably the good guys again.
I agree completely. I started using Linux in '97 after we saw the writing on the wall for OS/2.
The linux groupthinkers will never get it, because they're told all this nonsense about choice and source code is a moral right and all sorts of other nonsense.
Your point about a common unified desktop platform is spot on...and something the groupthinkers never grok. Hell, if the LSB (Linux Standards Base) would have a LDSB(Linux Desktop Standards Base) then at least you might see a standard toolkit.
Hell, X11 is a standard, why isn't there a standard toolkit. I know why. Because Qt can never be the standard and nobody that has pull has the balls to tell the KDE fanboys to STFU.
Thing would be so much better today if someone had bought Trolltech say back in '98, LGPL'd or GPL'd + exceptions the toolkit, Gnome never had been started, and things like Enlightenment would have been experimental, research desktops.
XFree was ported back in '92 and it just took too long for people to take the desktop seriously on Linux. That's somewhat understanding considering old-time Unix geeks tended to have a bunch of xterms open and not much else, but now we have a bunch of newbies that think after they pop in a Mandrake CD that someone they're a soldier in the war against Microsoft.
It's completely evident now that being able to sell your OS (with proprietary bits), along with complete control over the entire software stack from the microkernel all the way up to the desktop has lots of merit.
The linux "community" is just too factionalized to ever make big inroads onto the desktop.
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In middle America, FOSS still faces the daunting ignorance that surrounds it intrinsically. We tend to believe that if it is free, it is stolen, or bad.
It's nice that you've appointed yourself the opinion spokesperson of middle america regarding open source. What would we do without you?
Ohio has a growing population of young hackers and tech-enthusiasts. I'm sure Ohio will have greater input into open source as this younger generation gains a foothold.
Random geographic region X has a growing population of young random_subject_x-enthusiasts. I'm sure random geographical region X will have greater input into random_subject_x as this young generation gains foothold.
I'm guessing that there's lots of people that use/enjoy Linux at Microsoft, but they just don't make it a religion.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if Microsoft started making software for Linux in the not too long-term future. At the end of the day Microsoft wants to make software and money - which is what they're supposed to do.
Hell, I wish Microsoft would put out a desktop for Linux, but that's way too much wishful thinking.
You mean open source doesn't solve every software problem?
I found the "religion" comment particularly amusing. I wonder how many managers have been turned off of open source because they have some employee running around screaming about source code freedom and writing stuff in emails like M$.
This has nothing to do with religion.
Oh, ok then it's a "social movement" according to the GPL FAQ. I'm talking about the Stallman groupie nutcases in any case.
Funny how any techie could rattle off at least a few well known and high profile cases of MS shafting it's "development partners". And yet you sit here and rattle off some crap about religious zealots and "not being so sure".
Linus got shafted by that idiot that reverse-engineered the bitkeeper protocol and works with him. What was your point again? Oh, that's right....the usual slashdweeb mantra of "Microsoft is evil"
Obviously you're too much an idiot to bother trying to explain anything to , or too much an asshole to bother with.
Translation: I'm a member of the Stallman cult
So here's a bone:
Name 1 competing software manufacturer that MS has dealt with on a cooperative basis that MS hasn't stolen from, lied to, killed out right or simply aquired.
More slashdweeb idiocy of "Microsoft is evil"
This refers to an interview with Cohen about greater cooperation with Microsoft and more proprietary software on Linux.
Linus, who works at OSDL, has always been a pragmatist and never believed in FSF/Stallman religion. The vast majority of people look at code/computers as a tool and/or a technical curiousity, not a cult.
Oh John, since your a family man now and you've ditched at least one ferrarri, did you pick yourself an H3?
He's 35, like Linus (Linus got his masters), carmack did a semester an a half. these guys are hardcore hackers. just pure let's push the fucking envelope and getting rich at the same time.
carmack is way beyond linus. carmack is in a world beyond himself. the dude writes engines (back in the day, before he had kids) like you wipe your ass. always writing engines to push the envelope. even sweeney considers carmack god. the dude is just a fucking machine.
thank you john, from another 35 year old...how time flys.
n/t
Xgl has been heavily backed by Novell/RedHat and the gnome fanboys (well, by 'backed' I mean hyped as if this was going to save gnome's arse)
So what's going to save KDE's ass? The only thing I can think of is someone buying trolltech and giving Qt a decent license.
The freedom to deny others freedom clearly isn't in the spirit of the GPL
Once you grow up you'll realize how stupid that statement really is. To say that BSD code denies other freedom is beyond ridiculous, but hey with the paint chip eaters around here it's no wonder that crap is parroted.
Exactly. The GPL is a political tool that has nothing to do with freedom. Stallman made up his own definition of freedom to suit his political agenda.
But I shouldn't be surprised that so many people around here buy his drivel.
If you're betting your career on being able to program in Lisp then you better start putting in that application at McDonalds.
There's no doubt that the preferred form of application distribution is the browser - and pretty much here to stay.
And frankly I don't see nice rich clients becoming ubiquitious unless either Avalon comes to Mozilla or some Mozilla technology gets into IE (unlikely).
Microsoft gave us XmlHTTPRequest which has spurred the big AJAX hype. It would be nice if they would open up some of their upcoming web technologies for everybody to use, but I'm not holding my breath.
I guess the only other hope is for Mozilla-based browsers to get enough of the market share to force Microsoft into complying - as they did with javascript.
I hate web apps. Even with AJAX they still suck. I'm eagerly anticipating the day when we can all have a rich client experience in the browser.
And you'll continue to be angry for a long time to come because Microsoft will continue to be the dominant desktop platform
In the real world people do like Microsoft products and people that think software is a religion (FSF) are laughed at and ignored.
If you're looking over my shoulder every minute of the day, checking my email, checking my browsing I'm liable to punch you in the mouth, trash all the code i've written for you, and walk out.
The thing you forgot to mention is that the vast, vast majority of businesses are not in the software business. They are in another business where software is just a tool. So they don't really care about "open source", but they really care about free as in beer.
I don't have problem with open source, just with some of the advocates (or rather the "free software" advocates), who use source code to promote their socialist political agenda.
But I'm bright enough to realize how important their influence is on mitigating the excesses of bottom-line corporatism.
No, that veiled discredit of free markets is why France and Germany's economies suck. Too many germans and french think like you. Just remember there is no free lunch. If you want your socialism then be ready for the consequences.
His problem seems to be what some companies offer as a work environment. Yeah, if I had to come in at 8 everyday into some shitty little cube then I would want to work at home too.
But I don't. I can come in at any reasonable time I want and have a real office. And I'll always believe that having your teammates in the offices next to you will always be more productive than telecommuting.
There's a lot of benefits to actually popping into the office next to you and actually talking to your co-worker. It's higher bandwidth than e-mail or irc chat. And its also nice to be able to get a few guys together to start scrawling on the whiteboard. And a lot of our developers are smokers, so we go out to the warehouse to smoke and chitchat about some shitty customer problem we're having or querying about some code, and then both being at the same workstation to look at the debugger....
First of all, Joel's metric of what is a "great" programmer seems to be how fast they can crank out code.
So is programmer Mike really a great programmer if he's cranking out a thousand lines of code a day, but its unmaintainable spaghetti code, and he has a personality disorder so when his girlfriend dumps him he goes AWOL for a few weeks, and he doesn't get along with others, and his domain knowledge is limited to being a "great" programmer for certain types of projects....?
I call bullshit on his drivel.
It's funny you bring that up because over at lamda-the-ultimate all the Smug Lisp Weenies (TM) have been replaced by Smug Haskell Weenies.
I'll never dig Lisp/Scheme prefix notation so I'll probably take a look at Haskell or O'Caml eventually.
Emacs and Vim (I love vim) just aren't suited for IDEs. They're still stuck in a console world no matter what kind of gui is slapped on the front end. Last time I checked Emacs/Xemacs on Unix still didn't have xft fonts, and Vim has so many obscure platforms it supports that it's limited on what it can do.
Once linux on the desktop is relevant, they'll care, but until then they're putting all their resources into their windows drivers.
My main machine is a desktop replacement (pre-upgradeable video cards), and is an ATI 9600. Nice card on windows. Plays FarCry and Counterstrike pretty well, but quake3 on linux is another story.
Next time I'll be sure to get Nvidia. Of course, by that time ATI will probably the good guys again.
I agree completely. I started using Linux in '97 after we saw the writing on the wall for OS/2.
The linux groupthinkers will never get it, because they're told all this nonsense about choice and source code is a moral right and all sorts of other nonsense.
Your point about a common unified desktop platform is spot on...and something the groupthinkers never grok. Hell, if the LSB (Linux Standards Base) would have a LDSB(Linux Desktop Standards Base) then at least you might see a standard toolkit.
Hell, X11 is a standard, why isn't there a standard toolkit. I know why. Because Qt can never be the standard and nobody that has pull has the balls to tell the KDE fanboys to STFU.
Thing would be so much better today if someone had bought Trolltech say back in '98, LGPL'd or GPL'd + exceptions the toolkit, Gnome never had been started, and things like Enlightenment would have been experimental, research desktops.
XFree was ported back in '92 and it just took too long for people to take the desktop seriously on Linux. That's somewhat understanding considering old-time Unix geeks tended to have a bunch of xterms open and not much else, but now we have a bunch of newbies that think after they pop in a Mandrake CD that someone they're a soldier in the war against Microsoft.
It's completely evident now that being able to sell your OS (with proprietary bits), along with complete control over the entire software stack from the microkernel all the way up to the desktop has lots of merit.
The linux "community" is just too factionalized to ever make big inroads onto the desktop.
Hehe, you better tell the newbies that it's not a war against Microsoft then.
Every kid that pops in a Mandriva CD seems to think that they're now a soldier in the war to bring down Microsoft