"Yes, it's patented. But also, yes, MS has published legal papers promissing not to sue or charge. No, GPL software is not blocked from implementing the standard"
The fact that the "OpenXML" format has legal encumberments means that GPL software IS blocked from implementing it. There is a fundamental licensing incompatibility that prevents OpenXML from being implemented in GPL software. You need to understand the GPL before you speak so that you don't make such blatant factual errors.
"The ODF standard is far too new to be considered as a government mandate."
Why? It is a standard. A real standard that is open for all to understand and use. No reason that government shouldn't mandate its use if they feel it is in the best intrest of the public.
There is a mistrust of Microsoft but that is to be expected. Microsoft has already been convicted multiple times for its anti competitive behavior. It would be foolish to ignore this fact.
"A much better way to deal with the news would have been to have hailed the step as an endorsement of ODF and glossed over the limited nature of the support on offer. "
I disagree. People need to know that Microsoft is trying an end run. They'll use the fact that people will not be inclined to not bother installing an add on. If Microsoft really wanted to support ODF it wouldn't be that hard for them it implement the format natively. They do other formats.
"As it is the article does more to highlight the contentious nature of ODF, the belief that Microsoft continues to be hostile to it and the beleif that the whole point of ODF is simply to attack Microsoft."
1.ODF does not have a "contentious nature" Microsoft does. 2.Microsoft does continue to be hostile toward ODF and people need to know that. 3.I don't think many people believe that "the whole point of ODF is to attack Microsoft." ODF has nothing to do with Microsoft, Open Source or proprietary software. It has to do with keeping the people's data available to them forever.
...and found it very stable. The community is great too!
The only problem that I have had is that in some areas it does lag behind distros like Suse. This may not be completely bad as I suspect that it is one reason that it is so stable. However, I like Open Office 2 and I think Umbuntu has a problem with it because it uses Java and they want to keep all propritary software out.
"Windows has the most problems simply because it is the most popular, and the biggest target for malware."
In all fairness there is more to it than that. The basic design kind of sucks from a security point of view. ActiveX is a security nightmare and there are many other problems as well. Not the least of which is the result of Microsoft s decision to integrate IE so even if you're not using it you're well.... using it...
Security has been Microsoft's top priority for how long now? They simply can't secure their OS.
I agree that no OS is completely secure. There is little protection for users who install questionable software but let's be honest, Windows has had MORE than its fair share of security problems.
"WinFS was dropped from Vista in what company executives described at the time as a trade-off to get the operating system completed in a timely manner."
"I'm not saying that something shouldn't be done, but you can't just say "Sorry, you can't do business here" when 95% of your PCs being used every day need them."
Actually, yes you can and further if a company is breaking the law you must. If 2.5 million per day does not impress Microsoft then the EU should keep raising the fine until it does make an impression.
No corporation should be allowed to ignore the law. Period.
It is unlikely that Microsoft will stop selling there products in the EU. But this should not be a bluff. If Microsoft decides to cut off their own noses then so be it. There are alternatives and people will adapt.
"Linux is not a viable replacement for Windows in all situations (especially on the desktop), if it were then it would have been coming preinstalled on home machines for a while now."
That's not really a logical conclusion. There are many factors in the decision of hardware vendors not preinstalling Linux on the PCs that they sell. The least of which is not Microsoft's use of its monopoly position to prevent that from happening.
"The zealots can make all the excuses they like: "you can play your Windows games with Wine", "ogg's are so much better than mp3's", "nautilus is way easier to use than explorer", etc, but Windows does do many of these things better."
Really? What?
"After doing an install I have to do extra work to get proper support for my NVidia card and be able to play mp3's (both of which required using a console)."
Maybe you should switch to a distro that is more geared for the desktop like Suse or Linspire? As I understand it Redhat has mainly sought to capture the server market. Linspire isn't my cup of tea but it comes with all the drivers that you mentioned. Oh and you can get PCs preinstalled with it as well.
"If I run a KDE app it takes about 5 times as long as a Gnome one to load."
If you don't like the time it takes for KDE apps to load then use the Gnome ones. Some of Microsoft's applications take a very long time to load. Microsoft tries to make it appear that they are faster using various tricks. Like preloading chunks so that not as much need be loaded when the user requests the application or bringing up multiple splash screens.
"I use WinXP as a desktop system and Linux for working on my Masters. That way I don't have to jump through hoops to play the few games."
Okay we agree on one thing. There currently isn't very many really kewl games written for linux. I have been a supporter of WineX for a number of years and frankly am disappointed. So yes, until companies start selling the kewl games on Linux Windows is still going to be the platform to use to play.
"I have, share files over a local network with my flatmate (who is also running XP) and run audio software like Soundforge and Acid. Why should I piss around with configuration files, downloading drivers, crossing my fingers and hoping apps run in Wine or putting up with half-pie open source attempts when Windows does all this flawlessly?"
Well back to disagreeing. My family has four computers including a home server. My server has our music collection on it and all computers have easy access using Jukebox or one of several other open source mp3/ogg players. These players are not "half-pie open source attempts." They are VERY professional and elligant applications. (Which I can't help think that you would know about if you really were a Linux user. Frankly you sound much more like a Microsoft shill to me.)
"Part of the problem is Microsoft's market share; why should people switch to an unfamiliar Linux environment when they are everyone else they know is already using a perfectly good operating system."
Right things should never change not ever, ever, ever. **cough stupid argument cough**
"The geeks may have a problem with the various DRM features of Windows, but the average Joe (the same guy who thinks downloading Bonzi Buddy is a good idea) doesn't give a shit."
Really? Most non-geeks that I talk to are not happy about having their fair use rights taken away.
"I think that whether we like or not, Linux is a geeks operating system and Windows is for all those who just want a computer in their living room for browsing teh interwebs, reading email, watching movies and burning cds."
That is just blatant FUD. Now I know you're just a Microsoft shill. Browsing the Internet, reading email, watching movies and burning cds is just as easily done using Linux as Windows. Linux is no longer just a "geek OS." This is just the kind of Microsoft FUD a Microsoft shill would spew.
Mr. Woit states about string advocates: "But one thing they haven't done is coax a single prediction from their theory."
Yet as the article points out: "To be fair, string theory can claim some success. A 1985 paper showed that if you compactify extra dimensions in a certain way, the number of quarks and leptons you get is exactly the number found in nature." So I guess it has.
Gee Mr. Woit, I'm sorry that the nature of the universe is bigger than the human mind and doesn't easily surrender all of its secrets to "testable predictions."
"The idea that intellectuals can't be criminals is almost victorian."
True but I don't think the article suggests that. Finding an exploit and then selling it IS "evil" and although IANAL probably illegal. It would take a moron not to realize that the exploit someone pays money for will be used maliciously.
"Open source is a way of building software and, in its most basic sense, there is nothing incompatible [between] the concept of open source and commercial software. But the GPL has an inherent incompatibility that is, to my knowledge, impossible to overcome," Bob Muglia, the senior vice president of Microsoft's server and tools business, told eWEEK in an interview here at Microsoft's annual TechEd developer conference on June 12.
"A commercial company has to build intellectual property, while the GPL, by its very nature, does not allow intellectual property to be built, making the two approaches fundamentally incompatible, Muglia said.
Licenses like the BSD (Berkeley Software Distribution) and commercial software, on the other hand, are quite compatible with one another, he observed.
So the bottom line is the same. Unless our open source is under a license that allows it to be hijacked it is not compatible. And my the way Muglia pal ol' buddy, the GPL does allow IP to be built. It is only the fact that we have the copyrights to our code that allows us to license it. Get it? No, I didn't think so...
Microsoft has really innovated! They've hijacked their own.NET platform!!
WinFX IS NOT RELAITED TO.NET. To start calling it.NET will confuse clueless managers and that would be most of them. The mono project will be telling people that they are the Linux.NET platform but clueless managers won't understand why the Linux.NET implementation isn't compatible with the Microsoft.NET 3.0 implementation.
Good innovation Microsoft. Unless one looks one would never see that this is really an anticompetitive move! bravo for Microsoft innovation!!!
Perhaps the best thing we can do is to send a clear message that we do not approve of trivial issues being used as political tools when there are real serious issues that haven't been addressed.
The best way to do that is to identify the politicians that use these tactics and then vote the bums out of office.
I'm glad that they are able to work on an issue like this because it must mean that they've solved more important issues like global warming, high energy costs, extreme poverty and hunger, the war in Iraq, sky rocketing health care costs, a failing school system and the impending melt down of Medicare.
To work on a trivial issue like gaming content while really important issues go unsolved would be really fucking stupid.
Although I don't agree with the parent post I don't think his post should be marked as a troll. Let's have open, honest discussions not try to silence the opinions with which we don't agree.
What the author doesn't say...
on
The CVS Cop-Out
·
· Score: 1
The author is putting up a variant of
the Straw Man argument. He first defines the "CV Cop-Out" as
something everyone agrees would be a bad thing but the thing is what
he describes isn't really indicative of the actual situation.
He says:
"One of my biggest pet peeves with open source software is what I call the
CVS cop-out
It works like this: I criticize (accurately) some shortcoming of an
open source application either in an article or in conversation, and
someone responds with, "That's not true! That feature was fixed
in CVS four weeks ago!"
He continues:
"You
really have to have blinders on to think that a patch in the revision
control system marks the end of the issue. The majority of Linux and
open source users get their software in pre-compiled binaries, and
not from CVS, SVN, or any of the alternatives."
This leaves me imagining that the bug
fix is not already released. He further makes the assumption that
most people don't keep their Linux box up to date with the most
recent versions of software.
"...I am willing to bet that the majority of Linux
users consistently run the version of each app that is supplied by
their distro."
I don't know about you Mr. Willis but
my version of Linux (Susie 10.0) automatically detects and installs
upgrades to the packages on my computer. I don't know for sure but I
think most versions of Linux comes with something similar. I think
you Mr. Willis have made bad assumptions. I believe that most Linux
users do get their updates regularly. I'm not sure how long it takes
for various Open Source groups to release bug fixes on the average
but I believe that it's a lot faster than most proprietary software
vendors. So when you bring up an old bug, it really isn't
relevant to the vast majority of Linux users.
Sun got burned pretty bad by Microsoft when Billy boy and his corporate thugs decided to use their monopoly OS to hijack Java. I don't blame SUN for moving slowly with license changes. It was only their license that stopped Microsoft.
As far as Java being Open Source, hasn't Java source code been available for years? Are we talking open source or GPL'd?
We can only hope that politicians in all countries can be shamed into doing SOMETHING REAL about the problem. For one thing any individual that is willing to wage a cyber war of this magnitude should be taken out permanently. Surly the Russian government knows how to do that.
Suggesting that Microsoft wouldn't bundle a look-a-like product in their monopoly OS and then do exactly what the parent post suggests (start making small changes) makes you sound naïve. For God sakes man, they did already try it once!
Microsoft hasn't learned to play fair and not cross that good ol' antitrust line. They wouldn't think twice if they decided that they could destroy Java that way.
Slashdot Mirror
"Yes, it's patented. But also, yes, MS has published legal papers promissing not to sue or charge. No, GPL software is not blocked from implementing the standard"
The fact that the "OpenXML" format has legal encumberments means that GPL software IS blocked from implementing it. There is a fundamental licensing incompatibility that prevents OpenXML from being implemented in GPL software. You need to understand the GPL before you speak so that you don't make such blatant factual errors.
"The ODF standard is far too new to be considered as a government mandate."
Why? It is a standard. A real standard that is open for all to understand and use. No reason that government shouldn't mandate its use if they feel it is in the best intrest of the public.
There is a mistrust of Microsoft but that is to be expected. Microsoft has already been convicted multiple times for its anti competitive behavior. It would be foolish to ignore this fact.
"A much better way to deal with the news would have been to have hailed the step as an endorsement of ODF and glossed over the limited nature of the support on offer. "
I disagree. People need to know that Microsoft is trying an end run. They'll use the fact that people will not be inclined to not bother installing an add on. If Microsoft really wanted to support ODF it wouldn't be that hard for them it implement the format natively. They do other formats.
"As it is the article does more to highlight the contentious nature of ODF, the belief that Microsoft continues to be hostile to it and the beleif that the whole point of ODF is simply to attack Microsoft."
1.ODF does not have a "contentious nature" Microsoft does.
2.Microsoft does continue to be hostile toward ODF and people need to know that.
3.I don't think many people believe that "the whole point of ODF is to attack Microsoft." ODF has nothing to do with Microsoft, Open Source or proprietary software. It has to do with keeping the people's data available to them forever.
...and found it very stable. The community is great too!
The only problem that I have had is that in some areas it does lag behind distros like Suse. This may not be completely bad as I suspect that it is one reason that it is so stable. However, I like Open Office 2 and I think Umbuntu has a problem with it because it uses Java and they want to keep all propritary software out.
"Windows has the most problems simply because it is the most popular, and the biggest target for malware."
In all fairness there is more to it than that. The basic design kind of sucks from a security point of view. ActiveX is a security nightmare and there are many other problems as well. Not the least of which is the result of Microsoft s decision to integrate IE so even if you're not using it you're well.... using it...
Security has been Microsoft's top priority for how long now? They simply can't secure their OS.
I agree that no OS is completely secure. There is little protection for users who install questionable software but let's be honest, Windows has had MORE than its fair share of security problems.
"WinFS was dropped from Vista in what company executives described at the time as a trade-off to get the operating system completed in a timely manner."
Oops... Too late for that don't you think?!
"I'm not saying that something shouldn't be done, but you can't just say "Sorry, you can't do business here" when 95% of your PCs being used every day need them."
Actually, yes you can and further if a company is breaking the law you must. If 2.5 million per day does not impress Microsoft then the EU should keep raising the fine until it does make an impression.
No corporation should be allowed to ignore the law. Period.
It is unlikely that Microsoft will stop selling there products in the EU. But this should not be a bluff. If Microsoft decides to cut off their own noses then so be it. There are alternatives and people will adapt.
"Linux is not a viable replacement for Windows in all situations (especially on the desktop), if it were then it would have been coming preinstalled on home machines for a while now."
That's not really a logical conclusion. There are many factors in the decision of hardware vendors not preinstalling Linux on the PCs that they sell. The least of which is not Microsoft's use of its monopoly position to prevent that from happening.
"The zealots can make all the excuses they like: "you can play your Windows games with Wine", "ogg's are so much better than mp3's", "nautilus is way easier to use than explorer", etc, but Windows does do many of these things better."
Really? What?
"After doing an install I have to do extra work to get proper support for my NVidia card and be able to play mp3's (both of which required using a console)."
Maybe you should switch to a distro that is more geared for the desktop like Suse or Linspire? As I understand it Redhat has mainly sought to capture the server market. Linspire isn't my cup of tea but it comes with all the drivers that you mentioned. Oh and you can get PCs preinstalled with it as well.
"If I run a KDE app it takes about 5 times as long as a Gnome one to load."
If you don't like the time it takes for KDE apps to load then use the Gnome ones. Some of Microsoft's applications take a very long time to load. Microsoft tries to make it appear that they are faster using various tricks. Like preloading chunks so that not as much need be loaded when the user requests the application or bringing up multiple splash screens.
"I use WinXP as a desktop system and Linux for working on my Masters. That way I don't have to jump through hoops to play the few games."
Okay we agree on one thing. There currently isn't very many really kewl games written for linux. I have been a supporter of WineX for a number of years and frankly am disappointed. So yes, until companies start selling the kewl games on Linux Windows is still going to be the platform to use to play.
"I have, share files over a local network with my flatmate (who is also running XP) and run audio software like Soundforge and Acid. Why should I piss around with configuration files, downloading drivers, crossing my fingers and hoping apps run in Wine or putting up with half-pie open source attempts when Windows does all this flawlessly?"
Well back to disagreeing. My family has four computers including a home server. My server has our music collection on it and all computers have easy access using Jukebox or one of several other open source mp3/ogg players. These players are not "half-pie open source attempts." They are VERY professional and elligant applications. (Which I can't help think that you would know about if you really were a Linux user. Frankly you sound much more like a Microsoft shill to me.)
"Part of the problem is Microsoft's market share; why should people switch to an unfamiliar Linux environment when they are everyone else they know is already using a perfectly good operating system."
Right things should never change not ever, ever, ever. **cough stupid argument cough**
"The geeks may have a problem with the various DRM features of Windows, but the average Joe (the same guy who thinks downloading Bonzi Buddy is a good idea) doesn't give a shit."
Really? Most non-geeks that I talk to are not happy about having their fair use rights taken away.
"I think that whether we like or not, Linux is a geeks operating system and Windows is for all those who just want a computer in their living room for browsing teh interwebs, reading email, watching movies and burning cds."
That is just blatant FUD. Now I know you're just a Microsoft shill. Browsing the Internet, reading email, watching movies and burning cds is just as easily done using Linux as Windows. Linux is no longer just a "geek OS." This is just the kind of Microsoft FUD a Microsoft shill would spew.
then load an OS like Linux that is really yours.
WGA is like a cop taking drunks off the road. The more Windows boxes that are removed from the internet highway the safer we all are!
There! Go ahead and mod me as a troll or flamebate or over rated. Someone had to say it.
Wow! Physics has really changed since I was in college!
Mr. Woit states about string advocates: "But one thing they haven't done is coax a single prediction from their theory."
Yet as the article points out: "To be fair, string theory can claim some success. A 1985 paper showed that if you compactify extra dimensions in a certain way, the number of quarks and leptons you get is exactly the number found in nature." So I guess it has.
Gee Mr. Woit, I'm sorry that the nature of the universe is bigger than the human mind and doesn't easily surrender all of its secrets to "testable predictions."
"I just want to know if it's true that we're delaying an ice age with global warming. Maybe I'll be a proponent of greenhouse gases :)"
:-(
It is counter intuitive but global warming will trigger an ice age...
"The idea that intellectuals can't be criminals is almost victorian."
True but I don't think the article suggests that. Finding an exploit and then selling it IS "evil" and although IANAL probably illegal. It would take a moron not to realize that the exploit someone pays money for will be used maliciously.
Unfortunately you are incorrect. The debate will end as the human race becomes extinct.
From the article:
"Open source is a way of building software and, in its most basic sense, there is nothing incompatible [between] the concept of open source and commercial software. But the GPL has an inherent incompatibility that is, to my knowledge, impossible to overcome," Bob Muglia, the senior vice president of Microsoft's server and tools business, told eWEEK in an interview here at Microsoft's annual TechEd developer conference on June 12.
"A commercial company has to build intellectual property, while the GPL, by its very nature, does not allow intellectual property to be built, making the two approaches fundamentally incompatible, Muglia said.
Licenses like the BSD (Berkeley Software Distribution) and commercial software, on the other hand, are quite compatible with one another, he observed.
So the bottom line is the same. Unless our open source is under a license that allows it to be hijacked it is not compatible. And my the way Muglia pal ol' buddy, the GPL does allow IP to be built. It is only the fact that we have the copyrights to our code that allows us to license it. Get it? No, I didn't think so...
Microsoft has really innovated! They've hijacked their own .NET platform!!
.NET. To start calling it .NET will confuse clueless managers and that would be most of them. The mono project will be telling people that they are the Linux .NET platform but clueless managers won't understand why the Linux .NET implementation isn't compatible with the Microsoft .NET 3.0 implementation.
WinFX IS NOT RELAITED TO
Good innovation Microsoft. Unless one looks one would never see that this is really an anticompetitive move! bravo for Microsoft innovation!!!
Perhaps the best thing we can do is to send a clear message that we do not approve of trivial issues being used as political tools when there are real serious issues that haven't been addressed.
The best way to do that is to identify the politicians that use these tactics and then vote the bums out of office.
Umm.... because people don't go to jail for losing a civil case?
I'm glad that they are able to work on an issue like this because it must mean that they've solved more important issues like global warming, high energy costs, extreme poverty and hunger, the war in Iraq, sky rocketing health care costs, a failing school system and the impending melt down of Medicare.
To work on a trivial issue like gaming content while really important issues go unsolved would be really fucking stupid.
Although I don't agree with the parent post I don't think his post should be marked as a troll. Let's have open, honest discussions not try to silence the opinions with which we don't agree.
The author is putting up a variant of the Straw Man argument. He first defines the "CV Cop-Out" as something everyone agrees would be a bad thing but the thing is what he describes isn't really indicative of the actual situation.
He says:
"One of my biggest pet peeves with open source software is what I call the CVS cop-out It works like this: I criticize (accurately) some shortcoming of an open source application either in an article or in conversation, and someone responds with, "That's not true! That feature was fixed in CVS four weeks ago!"
He continues:
"You really have to have blinders on to think that a patch in the revision control system marks the end of the issue. The majority of Linux and open source users get their software in pre-compiled binaries, and not from CVS, SVN, or any of the alternatives."
This leaves me imagining that the bug fix is not already released. He further makes the assumption that most people don't keep their Linux box up to date with the most recent versions of software.
"...I am willing to bet that the majority of Linux users consistently run the version of each app that is supplied by their distro."
I don't know about you Mr. Willis but my version of Linux (Susie 10.0) automatically detects and installs upgrades to the packages on my computer. I don't know for sure but I think most versions of Linux comes with something similar. I think you Mr. Willis have made bad assumptions. I believe that most Linux users do get their updates regularly. I'm not sure how long it takes for various Open Source groups to release bug fixes on the average but I believe that it's a lot faster than most proprietary software vendors. So when you bring up an old bug, it really isn't relevant to the vast majority of Linux users.
Not being a Java programmer, I haven't actually read the Java license. What's so restrictive about it?
Sun got burned pretty bad by Microsoft when Billy boy and his corporate thugs decided to use their monopoly OS to hijack Java. I don't blame SUN for moving slowly with license changes. It was only their license that stopped Microsoft.
As far as Java being Open Source, hasn't Java source code been available for years? Are we talking open source or GPL'd?
Oh please. Jonathan, that FUD is so 1990's. It's been long disproved. Can't you come up with a new lie?
We can only hope that politicians in all countries can be shamed into doing SOMETHING REAL about the problem. For one thing any individual that is willing to wage a cyber war of this magnitude should be taken out permanently. Surly the Russian government knows how to do that.
Suggesting that Microsoft wouldn't bundle a look-a-like product in their monopoly OS and then do exactly what the parent post suggests (start making small changes) makes you sound naïve. For God sakes man, they did already try it once!
Microsoft hasn't learned to play fair and not cross that good ol' antitrust line. They wouldn't think twice if they decided that they could destroy Java that way.