You are self professed self-educated person, dont assume that which you dont know anything about. I can count on 1 hand the number of classes I could just memorize the material in my classes, and even then I would have a remainder...
And look I am self learned myself. I did not go to college until I was 34, after having worked for IBM and Microsoft (the latter laid me off in 2009 which is when I went back to school). That being said I know this from both sides. The number of people who can do what you are talking about is relativly few. There is a good reason for using degrees to weed students out.
You really think it is an issue of not being applied fairly? Could it be that they see the not for profit already adhering to these rules? In addition you see a problem with vilifying these schools that have a 50% of the defaults with 13% of the students?
your are assuming that is the line I was talking about. However since I mentioned the strawman part it would probably be the part where you misrepresented my statement so you could attack it, the "Look, if this is your idea of an "educated" person, then I don't want to be educated." part..
Again what type of programming.. When I first learned Cobol at a CC I would not have understood basic programming concepts in C or JAVA, would not have been able to use psuedocode, they used flow charts.
Another fallacy from you, this time false dilemma....Everyone knows how to learn in a general sense, but some people are better at it than others, and even still college is supposed to allow you to learn subject matter properly, and efficiently.
If you take that experience and assume that as the general rule then yes there is a fallacy.. Which is what you have been doing.
And how are these tests given in a closed room, are they allowed to use the internet or books? Not all languages use the same syntax, shoot some are vastly dissimilar.. Can you program in assembly? That is vastly different than JAVA or C++
Why is it odd, that is the amount of time if you have an economic hardship. Technically if you think about it the time would be 3.5 years, auto 6 month deferment on graduation. However I think the 3 year mark makes perfect sense.
Well if you read the summery, you would see the problem is the disproportionate amount coming from the tech schools not the other way around. 50% of the defaults for a much smaller amount of students....
Again with a fallacy, this time a strawman.. I did not say people who graduated would be able to do it on the spot, but generally speaking I would be willing to bet that most of them would be able to figure it would in a reasonable amount of time. It sounds like you want someone knowledgeable, as mentioned before. Besides which your requirements for writing fizzbuzz is a little vague, would echo "fizzbuzz" work for you? LOL
Again no it is not. Most tests that you can give in these situations are trivial and do not reflect anything like you make them out to be able to do. And they surely do not reflect someones capabilities to learn if the job has that requirement.
Is not knowledgeable in the field...Some people who are educated in the field dont do pseudocode. Some still use flow charts, I know very out dated but they do. Others do a very convoluted pseudocode. Being educated means you are taught how to learn, generally about studies, and particularly about a field, being knowledgeable means you know about the the subject matter. There is a correlation, but they are not the same. I would rather have someone who is not quite as knowledgeable, but is educated, than someone who is slightly more knowledgeable but not educated.
Not typically. UNCP is typically the school you would get into, it is a 4k student school, as apposed to NC States 40k campus. NC state would require a 3.6 GPA, UNCP would take you with a C typically. It is out in the boonies, and typically caters to the Lumbies.
Mostly true. For UNC, and I would expect UC, the state subsidizes the cost of NC students, and the out of state tuition represents the non subsidized amount.
That is not true. There are always options. In NC there is a 17 system public system of university. If you get an Associates degree you can get into this school, as long as you are from the state.
State ran schools dont use an endowment, they are typically budgeted... So wait, they can only be non-profit if no one is paid a salary, or if they make very little? It is not a matter of semantics, it is a matter of meaning..
Care to be more detailed about the foreign students? At NC State we have a lot of foreign students in the graduated classes, but not the undergrad, and even then most of the graduate students are paid for by the professors for research, and not the students or their family themselves. In graduate level the mentors typically pay for the education in exchange for the student doing work on their projects.
Looking up the UC system shows that they have a policy of limiting enrollment so that only 10% of the students can be foreign to the US, and currently only 7% are from another state, meaning at least 83% of the current enrollment is from the state... That is a far cry from what you are describing...
I meant to say " I said that it tends to show" That was a mistake in my statement there.
So your employer does not need an educated person, but a knowledgeable person, there is a major difference, your last statement seems to say he is testing for knowledge not education. The problem with that is you dont know how long it took him to learn to code the simplest of problems. It could have been 5 years and he does not know how to advance past that, where at the educated person may be able to learn what you tested in a matter of hours/minutes and progress past that in weeks/days.
Exactly. There is generally no reason to go to these for profit schools other than they are super easy and you generally dont have to do much, after all their pay is directly related to you passing so why would you fail?
Actually having that piece of paper tends to show that you are educated.
I've noticed no such correlation, and especially so in the workforce. My employer doesn't, either; he turns away a grand majority of people with degrees.
But what that was really about is illogical elitism. "If you don't have a degree in X or Y, you're not educated." Regardless of your opinions on pieces of paper, such statements are ridiculous.
If I am looking for an educated person do I take the chance on someone who at least has a piece of paper from an accredited school that says hey this person is educated, or the guy who walks in and has nothing to show that he is educated?
Again, you act as if a piece of paper indicates that someone is educated. My employer actually takes the time to evaluate people's skills to see if they're educated, which seems like a better approach.
If you don't have time for that, I would suggest getting rid of people who obviously don't know what they're doing, and then discarding people from your list of possible educated people at random. It would probably bring better results, anyway.
Nice fallacy.. I never stated that someone with a piece of paper IS educated, I showed that it tends to show they are, and is better than not having one. Your employer may attempt to evaluate if they are educated but he cannot fully do so. He can see if someone is educated in a very tiny area, but that does not show that they are fully educated on the subject.
Actually having that piece of paper tends to show that you are educated. It does not mean that only people who have that paper are educated, however those people tend to have nothing to prove they are educated. If I am looking for an educated person do I take the chance on someone who at least has a piece of paper from an accredited school that says hey this person is educated, or the guy who walks in and has nothing to show that he is educated?
Many people would prefer not to have to search long and hard for someone to accept self education, besides which most jobs that allow that start you out at high school drop out wages, and will take you longer to work out to the just out of college pay.
The problem is that the for profit schools talked about in this do nothing to further then general pool of knowledge as well, and advertise helping people get a job, which they dont.
How about the UNC system of schools? Most state run schools are not "for profit" IE, they dont look to make money, only survive. Or does your definition of profit not match up with the dictionary version of profit?
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You are self professed self-educated person, dont assume that which you dont know anything about. I can count on 1 hand the number of classes I could just memorize the material in my classes, and even then I would have a remainder...
And look I am self learned myself. I did not go to college until I was 34, after having worked for IBM and Microsoft (the latter laid me off in 2009 which is when I went back to school). That being said I know this from both sides. The number of people who can do what you are talking about is relativly few. There is a good reason for using degrees to weed students out.
You really think it is an issue of not being applied fairly? Could it be that they see the not for profit already adhering to these rules? In addition you see a problem with vilifying these schools that have a 50% of the defaults with 13% of the students?
your are assuming that is the line I was talking about. However since I mentioned the strawman part it would probably be the part where you misrepresented my statement so you could attack it, the "Look, if this is your idea of an "educated" person, then I don't want to be educated." part.. Again what type of programming.. When I first learned Cobol at a CC I would not have understood basic programming concepts in C or JAVA, would not have been able to use psuedocode, they used flow charts.
Another fallacy from you, this time false dilemma ....Everyone knows how to learn in a general sense, but some people are better at it than others, and even still college is supposed to allow you to learn subject matter properly, and efficiently.
And how are these tests given in a closed room, are they allowed to use the internet or books? Not all languages use the same syntax, shoot some are vastly dissimilar.. Can you program in assembly? That is vastly different than JAVA or C++
Why is it odd, that is the amount of time if you have an economic hardship. Technically if you think about it the time would be 3.5 years, auto 6 month deferment on graduation. However I think the 3 year mark makes perfect sense.
Well if you read the summery, you would see the problem is the disproportionate amount coming from the tech schools not the other way around. 50% of the defaults for a much smaller amount of students....
Again with a fallacy, this time a strawman.. I did not say people who graduated would be able to do it on the spot, but generally speaking I would be willing to bet that most of them would be able to figure it would in a reasonable amount of time. It sounds like you want someone knowledgeable, as mentioned before. Besides which your requirements for writing fizzbuzz is a little vague, would echo "fizzbuzz" work for you? LOL
That is not necessarily a reflection on colleges, or degrees. you are over generalizing the situation, the fallacy I was speaking to earlier.
they are not asked to do these tests on the spot? So he gives them time to go out and figure out how to do them?
Again no it is not. Most tests that you can give in these situations are trivial and do not reflect anything like you make them out to be able to do. And they surely do not reflect someones capabilities to learn if the job has that requirement.
Is not knowledgeable in the field...Some people who are educated in the field dont do pseudocode. Some still use flow charts, I know very out dated but they do. Others do a very convoluted pseudocode. Being educated means you are taught how to learn, generally about studies, and particularly about a field, being knowledgeable means you know about the the subject matter. There is a correlation, but they are not the same. I would rather have someone who is not quite as knowledgeable, but is educated, than someone who is slightly more knowledgeable but not educated.
Not typically. UNCP is typically the school you would get into, it is a 4k student school, as apposed to NC States 40k campus. NC state would require a 3.6 GPA, UNCP would take you with a C typically. It is out in the boonies, and typically caters to the Lumbies.
Mostly true. For UNC, and I would expect UC, the state subsidizes the cost of NC students, and the out of state tuition represents the non subsidized amount.
That is not true. There are always options. In NC there is a 17 system public system of university. If you get an Associates degree you can get into this school, as long as you are from the state.
State ran schools dont use an endowment, they are typically budgeted... So wait, they can only be non-profit if no one is paid a salary, or if they make very little? It is not a matter of semantics, it is a matter of meaning..
Being a state ran school it is all online, free for you to look at any time you wish to educate yourself....
Care to be more detailed about the foreign students? At NC State we have a lot of foreign students in the graduated classes, but not the undergrad, and even then most of the graduate students are paid for by the professors for research, and not the students or their family themselves. In graduate level the mentors typically pay for the education in exchange for the student doing work on their projects.
Looking up the UC system shows that they have a policy of limiting enrollment so that only 10% of the students can be foreign to the US, and currently only 7% are from another state, meaning at least 83% of the current enrollment is from the state... That is a far cry from what you are describing...
I meant to say " I said that it tends to show" That was a mistake in my statement there.
So your employer does not need an educated person, but a knowledgeable person, there is a major difference, your last statement seems to say he is testing for knowledge not education. The problem with that is you dont know how long it took him to learn to code the simplest of problems. It could have been 5 years and he does not know how to advance past that, where at the educated person may be able to learn what you tested in a matter of hours/minutes and progress past that in weeks/days.
Exactly. There is generally no reason to go to these for profit schools other than they are super easy and you generally dont have to do much, after all their pay is directly related to you passing so why would you fail?
clearer truth? Purposely ignore all non profit public universities and then maybe it is clear, but then it is just idiotic.
Actually having that piece of paper tends to show that you are educated.
I've noticed no such correlation, and especially so in the workforce. My employer doesn't, either; he turns away a grand majority of people with degrees.
But what that was really about is illogical elitism. "If you don't have a degree in X or Y, you're not educated." Regardless of your opinions on pieces of paper, such statements are ridiculous.
If I am looking for an educated person do I take the chance on someone who at least has a piece of paper from an accredited school that says hey this person is educated, or the guy who walks in and has nothing to show that he is educated?
Again, you act as if a piece of paper indicates that someone is educated. My employer actually takes the time to evaluate people's skills to see if they're educated, which seems like a better approach.
If you don't have time for that, I would suggest getting rid of people who obviously don't know what they're doing, and then discarding people from your list of possible educated people at random. It would probably bring better results, anyway.
Nice fallacy.. I never stated that someone with a piece of paper IS educated, I showed that it tends to show they are, and is better than not having one. Your employer may attempt to evaluate if they are educated but he cannot fully do so. He can see if someone is educated in a very tiny area, but that does not show that they are fully educated on the subject.
Actually having that piece of paper tends to show that you are educated. It does not mean that only people who have that paper are educated, however those people tend to have nothing to prove they are educated. If I am looking for an educated person do I take the chance on someone who at least has a piece of paper from an accredited school that says hey this person is educated, or the guy who walks in and has nothing to show that he is educated?
Many people would prefer not to have to search long and hard for someone to accept self education, besides which most jobs that allow that start you out at high school drop out wages, and will take you longer to work out to the just out of college pay.
The problem is that the for profit schools talked about in this do nothing to further then general pool of knowledge as well, and advertise helping people get a job, which they dont.
How about the UNC system of schools? Most state run schools are not "for profit" IE, they dont look to make money, only survive. Or does your definition of profit not match up with the dictionary version of profit?