That's why it is incredibly important for the community to police itself and to aggressively do damage control whenever people do get upset.
Why would you do that? For every legitimate racist douchebag, there's a dozen thin skinned jerks spoiling for a fight. Sure, rein in the douchebags (although there's not that much that can be done with a determined d-bag), but the jerks need to grow a thicker skin. We've seen what happens when you let a vocal minority run roughshod over the majority, or did you really believe that everybody was pissed off over Janet Jackson's broken down junk?
But it also tells me that members of the FOSS movement will be reluctant to apologize for their mistakes, and that can become a deal-breaker.
It seems that there's a bit of that going on both sides - try posting on a feminist blog and disagreeing with the author as a man. Even money you get deleted.
It's also pretty shocking that you think it's mere "bitching" for women to point out and attempt to address the systematic disadvantages that they face in the workplace.
My take on the whole thing is that that group is just as biased and exclusionary as people are claiming that us engineers are. So, are you talking about feminists (who just want a fair shake) or the batshit crazy contingent that I ran into?
So for instance, a Microsoft employee can't get a cert for paypal.com then sit somewhere between your network and the internet and perform a man in the middle attack.,/quote>
I'll bet they can figure out how to get a cert for \0paypal.com.
1-2% is pointless and should be ignored, but 5-10% is not.
Anything under about 30% total difference will most times not be noticed. In order to wow someone, it's got to be over 100% - subjectively, 10% difference doesn't matter.
Frames per second is a pretty damned important feature in a gaming computer, and is certainly a hell of a lot more compelling to someone who says they play games than months of uptime. ECC has its place, and clearly you value it, but its place is not in a gaming computer unless your goal is simply to throw money about.
Funny, random crashes are a lot more irritating than missing out on that 120FPS number on my 60Hz lcd.
Please, tell me how dropping loads more money on a mainboard that supports ECC RAM, the ECC RAM itself, and the slower processors to run the whole system will benefit him rather than focusing that budget on videocards.
Nowhere did we discuss that. Get the ECC systems and a pair of $200 cards and your rig will be quite fast enough for quite some time (2-3 years?). You make it sound like ECC is absurdly expensive when it's really pretty cheap - $100 isn't much. Hell, $1500 isn't a lot for a fast box. I paid almost that much for a 386 back in the day.
Alternately, feel free to resort to condescension and insults, as it's about all you appear capable of mustering to bolster your argument.
Speak for yourself - your best is a webpage somewhere that talks about FPS without saying what informs the number. For all you know, the faster proc has a newer GPU.
Is that the best you've got? The difference between 80 and 120 FPS is laughable, and the linked benchmark doesn't specify the system - would you have me believe that the machines in question ran 80 fps in software mode? No GPU is specified, so the chart is basically pointless.
I claimed that the difference between CPUs wasn't a factor and that the GPU was - that's engineer speak for saying the GPU will drive the numbers most days. I already know about RAM speed - 5-10% is pointless unless you're amazon, and the same is true for pci-e slot speeds.
By the way, I like being rude to you - you spout off about how many FPS you can get like it's your e-peen, when the truth is, if you can run a game at 60-80fps in bad conditions (which you haven't really addressed), it doesn't matter if you could make it faster. You sound like a goddamn teenager.
You can pretend that GPU BW and RAM speed matter, but they don't. CPU can have an impact, but it's mostly the GPU and possibly the disk (but hey, RAID0 SATA solves that for cheap).I never claimed that my box was an ideal game box, just that ECC is easily done on a home PC. $1500 for a computer is cheap as hell, kid.
Half that stuff happened during the bush and reagan years. Were those guys socialists or totalitarians? Or are you saying that it's France's fault we sit on our ass watching people die unless they're white or have oil?
You can get a dual CPU board for about $300 (Why dual CPU for gaming, again, when a multi-core chip will do fine for the few games that truly benefit from multiple CPUs?) You can spend more money on equal speed parts or kid yourself that your CPU speed won't have any effect - I'll give you that it affects some types of games less than others, but it always has some relevance to the argument.
Yes, it's $300 for the board if you want ECC and no, the speed isn't much of a factor - GPU speed is.
You can pay more money for slower RAM that will be guaranteed against a flipped bit, even if that bit doesn't effect what you're playing at the moment anyway.
You can pay $100 for 4G of RAM. who cares that it's slower? It doesn't affect system speed.
You can get 2 x16 slots that cut down to x8 speed when used in paired mode and further cripple your performance as compared to a regular ol' $150 semi-premium mainboard. Either computer may last for many years, but the presence of ECC RAM has no bearing on that case.
Who cares if it does? You aren't using that bandwidth anyway.
Staying up for months? I had a craptastic K6-2 on ALi chipset computer that had no problem doing that. If someone's building a gaming computer, they're probably using/dual-booting into windows, and the updates or dual-booting is going to negate their "amazing" uptime anyway.
I don't build gaming computers and never claimed to. My systems stay up for months and I don't have to worry about random errors because I get quality power supplies and use ECC when possible. I like my rock-stable dev box.
In other words, you advocate spending a good deal more money for less performance than a non-server product would deliver on gaming, with "reliability" features that may never be relevant given the stated use. OP wants to know why he wouldn't want ECC RAM for gaming, and I explained it.
Here's a nickel kid, go get yourself a better computer.
So naive - they've been killing kurds over there so long it's practically tradition. Are we going to invade turkey for killing kurds? Did we care about them during the iran/iraq war? Are we doing anything about darfur? No, we seem to care about genocide when it suits us.
Given that, we should have used our limited means to go after afghanistan, which is what we're moving towards now.
How about the asshole who gave the asshole gassing the Kurds the gas in the first place?
Oh right, that would be Donald Rumsfeld who completed that deal during the Reagen administration, not Richard Cheney.
I'm sorry when exactly do you think Regan took office? The Iraqi's were trying to kill all the Kurds since about 1960. Killing the Kurds and stealing their oilfields. So what if the gas was purchased and used later, the genocide attempt was going on for 20 years prior.
I just love it when the frothing-at-the-mouth liberals try to blame a single, US "official" for doing something EVEYRONE FUCKING KNOWS was the right thing to do, even if the reason was falsified.
I'm sorry, I lost the thread - are you actually saying that killing kurds was the right thing to do and that only frothing libs care about that? Really not sure what you're on about.
Yeah, that's like wearing little armor to be able to dodge all enemy attacks. You have to know what the hell you are doing, and even then it can still be disasterous.
It's more like parking fewer cars on the street in north jersey - every app is a way to be attacked.
As you've already discovered, though, it's not terribly common on home-targeted boards. You're welcome to use one of those boards for gaming, but you'll probably have to use a pricier Xeon or Opteron processor, more expensive ECC RAM, and suffer with slower PCI-E links for your videocards. Higher prices and similar or slower gaming performance is probably not what you're interested in.
I can get a dual AMD TYAN board with ECC ram and 2 x16 slots (which is pointless, speedwise - you won't need 32 lanes) on newegg. The opterons aren't expensive, since I buy lower speed parts (games are mostly gfx limited). For all that, I get a machine that stays up for months at a time and lasts many years.
Simple answer: I can custom hack a UPS, get a UPS mfr. to make it for me, and generally have a lower cost profile with longer times between generations and lower system risk. I'm also not tied to any OEM (save for the UPS, which is fairly simple)
In other words, big numbers make Gronk head hurt. Gronk go make fire. Gronk go make boat. Gronk go make fire-in-a-boat. Gronk no happy with fire-in-a-boat. Boat no work, and fire no work, all at same time.
Room for tons of ECC RAM and two CPUs is server or serious-workstation class (or maybe I-just-use-Notepad-and-my-sales-guy-is-on-commission class), but I think once you're on to custom boards that only use certain voltages of electricity, you've moved into a class by yourself.
He probably means that the boxes are made to spec. Google isn't stupid enough to go with custom mobos for what amounts to generic grunt clusters.
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That's why it is incredibly important for the community to police itself and to aggressively do damage control whenever people do get upset.
Why would you do that? For every legitimate racist douchebag, there's a dozen thin skinned jerks spoiling for a fight. Sure, rein in the douchebags (although there's not that much that can be done with a determined d-bag), but the jerks need to grow a thicker skin. We've seen what happens when you let a vocal minority run roughshod over the majority, or did you really believe that everybody was pissed off over Janet Jackson's broken down junk?
But it also tells me that members of the FOSS movement will be reluctant to apologize for their mistakes, and that can become a deal-breaker.
It seems that there's a bit of that going on both sides - try posting on a feminist blog and disagreeing with the author as a man. Even money you get deleted.
It's also pretty shocking that you think it's mere "bitching" for women to point out and attempt to address the systematic disadvantages that they face in the workplace.
My take on the whole thing is that that group is just as biased and exclusionary as people are claiming that us engineers are. So, are you talking about feminists (who just want a fair shake) or the batshit crazy contingent that I ran into?
So for instance, a Microsoft employee can't get a cert for paypal.com then sit somewhere between your network and the internet and perform a man in the middle attack.,/quote>
I'll bet they can figure out how to get a cert for \0paypal.com.
Can we just call it sublight? It's already in common usage in scifi.
1-2% is pointless and should be ignored, but 5-10% is not.
Anything under about 30% total difference will most times not be noticed. In order to wow someone, it's got to be over 100% - subjectively, 10% difference doesn't matter.
Frames per second is a pretty damned important feature in a gaming computer, and is certainly a hell of a lot more compelling to someone who says they play games than months of uptime. ECC has its place, and clearly you value it, but its place is not in a gaming computer unless your goal is simply to throw money about.
Funny, random crashes are a lot more irritating than missing out on that 120FPS number on my 60Hz lcd.
Please, tell me how dropping loads more money on a mainboard that supports ECC RAM, the ECC RAM itself, and the slower processors to run the whole system will benefit him rather than focusing that budget on videocards.
Nowhere did we discuss that. Get the ECC systems and a pair of $200 cards and your rig will be quite fast enough for quite some time (2-3 years?). You make it sound like ECC is absurdly expensive when it's really pretty cheap - $100 isn't much. Hell, $1500 isn't a lot for a fast box. I paid almost that much for a 386 back in the day.
Alternately, feel free to resort to condescension and insults, as it's about all you appear capable of mustering to bolster your argument.
Speak for yourself - your best is a webpage somewhere that talks about FPS without saying what informs the number. For all you know, the faster proc has a newer GPU.
Is that the best you've got? The difference between 80 and 120 FPS is laughable, and the linked benchmark doesn't specify the system - would you have me believe that the machines in question ran 80 fps in software mode? No GPU is specified, so the chart is basically pointless.
I claimed that the difference between CPUs wasn't a factor and that the GPU was - that's engineer speak for saying the GPU will drive the numbers most days. I already know about RAM speed - 5-10% is pointless unless you're amazon, and the same is true for pci-e slot speeds.
By the way, I like being rude to you - you spout off about how many FPS you can get like it's your e-peen, when the truth is, if you can run a game at 60-80fps in bad conditions (which you haven't really addressed), it doesn't matter if you could make it faster. You sound like a goddamn teenager.
So go after them on that. Installing software like this and excluding chunks of the network pretty much defeat the point of having it at all.
You can pretend that GPU BW and RAM speed matter, but they don't. CPU can have an impact, but it's mostly the GPU and possibly the disk (but hey, RAID0 SATA solves that for cheap).I never claimed that my box was an ideal game box, just that ECC is easily done on a home PC. $1500 for a computer is cheap as hell, kid.
Half that stuff happened during the bush and reagan years. Were those guys socialists or totalitarians? Or are you saying that it's France's fault we sit on our ass watching people die unless they're white or have oil?
Why would you allow an optout? If your network isn't spewing garbage, it'll never get noticed.
You can get a dual CPU board for about $300 (Why dual CPU for gaming, again, when a multi-core chip will do fine for the few games that truly benefit from multiple CPUs?) You can spend more money on equal speed parts or kid yourself that your CPU speed won't have any effect - I'll give you that it affects some types of games less than others, but it always has some relevance to the argument.
Yes, it's $300 for the board if you want ECC and no, the speed isn't much of a factor - GPU speed is.
You can pay more money for slower RAM that will be guaranteed against a flipped bit, even if that bit doesn't effect what you're playing at the moment anyway.
You can pay $100 for 4G of RAM. who cares that it's slower? It doesn't affect system speed.
You can get 2 x16 slots that cut down to x8 speed when used in paired mode and further cripple your performance as compared to a regular ol' $150 semi-premium mainboard. Either computer may last for many years, but the presence of ECC RAM has no bearing on that case.
Who cares if it does? You aren't using that bandwidth anyway.
Staying up for months? I had a craptastic K6-2 on ALi chipset computer that had no problem doing that. If someone's building a gaming computer, they're probably using/dual-booting into windows, and the updates or dual-booting is going to negate their "amazing" uptime anyway.
I don't build gaming computers and never claimed to. My systems stay up for months and I don't have to worry about random errors because I get quality power supplies and use ECC when possible. I like my rock-stable dev box.
In other words, you advocate spending a good deal more money for less performance than a non-server product would deliver on gaming, with "reliability" features that may never be relevant given the stated use. OP wants to know why he wouldn't want ECC RAM for gaming, and I explained it.
Here's a nickel kid, go get yourself a better computer.
(I HOPE Windows 8 is 64/128, and 128-bit processors are 32/64/128, but I know better than to expect anything sensible).
Who cares? 64 bit gives you exabytes of ram and it'll be a while before this is in any way limiting.
So naive - they've been killing kurds over there so long it's practically tradition. Are we going to invade turkey for killing kurds? Did we care about them during the iran/iraq war? Are we doing anything about darfur? No, we seem to care about genocide when it suits us.
Given that, we should have used our limited means to go after afghanistan, which is what we're moving towards now.
How about the asshole who gave the asshole gassing the Kurds the gas in the first place?
Oh right, that would be Donald Rumsfeld who completed that deal during the Reagen administration, not Richard Cheney.
I'm sorry when exactly do you think Regan took office? The Iraqi's were trying to kill all the Kurds since about 1960. Killing the Kurds and stealing their oilfields. So what if the gas was purchased and used later, the genocide attempt was going on for 20 years prior.
I just love it when the frothing-at-the-mouth liberals try to blame a single, US "official" for doing something EVEYRONE FUCKING KNOWS was the right thing to do, even if the reason was falsified.
I'm sorry, I lost the thread - are you actually saying that killing kurds was the right thing to do and that only frothing libs care about that? Really not sure what you're on about.
Well, not exactly - pretty sure Mohammed Atta wasn't holding his guts in with one hand while aiming with the other.
Eh, I chuckled. It can't all be AD&D.
Because then you need big freaking bus bars to deal with the current.
Install less software to protect yourself?
Yeah, that's like wearing little armor to be able to dodge all enemy attacks. You have to know what the hell you are doing, and even then it can still be disasterous.
It's more like parking fewer cars on the street in north jersey - every app is a way to be attacked.
It's cheaper to get 4G of ECC ram.
As you've already discovered, though, it's not terribly common on home-targeted boards. You're welcome to use one of those boards for gaming, but you'll probably have to use a pricier Xeon or Opteron processor, more expensive ECC RAM, and suffer with slower PCI-E links for your videocards. Higher prices and similar or slower gaming performance is probably not what you're interested in.
I can get a dual AMD TYAN board with ECC ram and 2 x16 slots (which is pointless, speedwise - you won't need 32 lanes) on newegg. The opterons aren't expensive, since I buy lower speed parts (games are mostly gfx limited). For all that, I get a machine that stays up for months at a time and lasts many years.
Simple answer: I can custom hack a UPS, get a UPS mfr. to make it for me, and generally have a lower cost profile with longer times between generations and lower system risk. I'm also not tied to any OEM (save for the UPS, which is fairly simple)
In other words, big numbers make Gronk head hurt. Gronk go make fire. Gronk go make boat. Gronk go make fire-in-a-boat. Gronk no happy with fire-in-a-boat. Boat no work, and fire no work, all at same time.
Me am go too far!
Room for tons of ECC RAM and two CPUs is server or serious-workstation class (or maybe I-just-use-Notepad-and-my-sales-guy-is-on-commission class), but I think once you're on to custom boards that only use certain voltages of electricity, you've moved into a class by yourself.
He probably means that the boxes are made to spec. Google isn't stupid enough to go with custom mobos for what amounts to generic grunt clusters.
If PACER can't handle 18 days of traffic, it's not ready for prime time.