No, I meant for game music, not for anime, which is where Kanno has primarily based her career. If you want to branch out, there are plenty of people in other areas of the music industry with that kind of versatility. Kanno DEFINITELY has it, and is unbelievably brilliant - but she has done very little video game music in comparison, and it wasn't very great game music. Her anime soundtracks are some of the best ever, but it's hard to place her NES music over that of Koshiro. Legacy of the Wizard is hard to top.
-j
Re:VGMix.com: The long and the short (okay, the LO
on
Video Game Music Mixes
·
· Score: 1
YES! That is me. If you can't tell yet, I have..really a twisted sense of humour, and enjoy doing things that nobody would "waste their time" doing. What good is skill if you just use it to do stuff everyone else does?
I have no idea where that site went, either. I do remember seeing/hearing it way back when; I just got a "HEY WAIT" nostalgia buzz. If you find out, -please- fire off an e-mail and let me know. If you want more stuff like that Thong Song cover (I have a whole game boy page up) check http://virt.vgmix.com and get up to date!
Site's just gone up this week. Give us a couple months. We'll have SoR and probably SoR2 stuff.
FWIW, I agree with you, it's some of the finest music ever, and Yuzo Koshiro is my personal idol amongst Japanese game composers.
I don't think there's ANYONE out there with the stylistic versatility and technical prowess that Koshiro has. He can do a fully orchestrated soundtrack (Actraiser) then move on to house/dance (SoR) then to fantasy/jpop/progressive stuff (Ys) without blinking, and do them all brilliantly and in a sound engine that he programmed himself. He should be a lot more revered than he is.:)
Well, I believe that you're mistaken in this particular context. But, because this is Slashdot, and because many people here will DIE trying to prove that they know more than you, I'm going to let it slide instead of arguing it into the ground - as I very well could. There's just more important stuff to focus on right now.
I will continue to go with the pronouncement of the actual lawyers I have consulted over those of some random person on Slashdot. Please do not take this personally, because your viewpoint is intriguing and probably not entirely uncommon.:)
"This is one of the reasons that midi-sequence repositories like vgmix.com come in handy"
I really should read through the Preview carefully before hitting submit. I meant to type "vgmusic.com." That's the useful midi-sequence repository. We're the useful, rippling-biceps, incredibly-amazing-in-bed, low-sodium, definitely-not-illegal arrangement site. Thanks!
"music inspired by other music is not illegal, though, i must add."
Perhaps I have not made myself clear.
THESE. ARE. NOT. REMIXES.
In fact, the only reason we called it "VGMix" is because "VGArrange" sounds awkward. Arrangements are something else ENTIRELY. They are a completely different type of interpretation. The only case in which copyright could pose a problem is if audio samples from the original song are used. Remember the whole MP3.com fiasco about using sampled material in songs? That was that.
These songs that we have on our site do NOT use the original audio (there are exceptions, of course, but only in tiny snippets, samples. These are completely original, 100% from-scratch pieces of music that are only inspired or loosely melodically / chordally / rhythmically based on the original song. This is a hobby that must often be explained in-depth, but what it really is, down at the core, is composition practice. This is one of the reasons that midi-sequence repositories like vgmix.com come in handy - we're doing it all by ear!
I'm sure I will have to repeat this over and over again over the course of this article's visible lifespan, but vgmix.com does NOT deal in remixes. It's about derivative/inspired works that are created completely by us. We just don't really have a great term for it, so some people call them "remixes" because it's catchy, even though it's completely inaccurate. I just go with "arrangements."
Yeah, but we were still around 9100 when the story broke on Slashdot. We've been mostly overwhelmed and slow, but our single server has - amazingly - weathered the entire thing so far, 5k hits (in 3 hours or so!) later. If you guys are looking for hosting for a similar-sized site, I can heartily recommend rackshack.net. Cheap, fast, and they have extremely responsive staff.
And of course, because I said that, the entire data center will be struck by lightning and incinerated while I'm asleep.
-j
Re:VGMix.com: The long and the short (okay, the LO
on
Video Game Music Mixes
·
· Score: 3, Informative
You also have a very good point, one that deserves some more attention. For anyone reading who does not know what we're talking about:
A big point of contention in the freelancing community is the retention of copyrights. Generally the way it's done among beginners is that you sell your music and your rights for a flat rate, and then they "own" the music. However, once you get more into the business side of things and you start writing and revising your own contracts, or adding items to theirs with legal advice, you can switch it around so that you take a pay cut in exchange for the rights to the music.
This is how Tommy Tallarico (a very popular game composer) has a mansion and several sports cars - and undoubtedly many Fly Bitches. The REAL money comes from licensing, franchising and -- for example -- the use of the same music, all for separate royalties, in a PS2, XBox, and Gamecube game, and then a soundtrack album, a television show, a Best-Hits-Games CD-Rom, a commercial excerpt, etc.
That said, some companies who DO own the copyrights might decide to be a little more stringent about sites like this. However, Stateside, I've never heard of a company going after an amateur arranger who is not posing any financial threat to the company. The market for arrangement albums in the US is so amazingly sparse that it just doesn't make sense to throw money at interpreting copyright law to vilify fans who do this as a hobby. And yes, the law would have to be interpreted, as it's always been vague about derivative works. Based upon everything I've heard (from real, living lawyers) doing something like this for fun and COMPLETELY -not for profit- is totally legal.
So, yeah. They could go after us. But that doesn't mean we've done anything wrong, it means they think we have. That's what the law is for. For now, though, it looks like we will remain unbothered by nasty letters just like other arrangement sites.
Well, it DOES make money in Japan, and as a result, fan-made arrangements ARE illegal in most cases, if I'm not mistaken. This hasn't happened yet in the states, and I'm seriously VERY doubtful that the American popular music market is going to be very receptive toward video game music...arrangements, seeing as game music soundtracks themselves don't even sell too well to begin with, over here.
You have a very valid point in theory, but in practice it's just not panning out like that. American people as a whole don't seem to appreciate game music in the same way that Japanese people do, and while I'd like to kid myself into thinking that a few talented American composers can change that, it's just not happening yet. Game music is a cultural thing in Japan. Here, it's just seen as background noise by most people. There are the few for whom that's NOT true, and for them, there are many good import houses and then sites like this that can help satisfy their cravings.
OverClocked ReMix has been around for two years and - unless I'm mistaken - has remained unmolested by legal professionals because it really ISN'T a money-generating market here in the US and so no copyright sparring has taken place.
So.... Yes, it is going to last. Maybe not into the next decade, but for at least long enough to be remembered, absolutely.
Just to clarify, the above post was in three paragraphs, but as I am Slashdot Inept(TM), it all got lumped together when I forgot to submit it as "plain text."
Where it says "i'll devote a whole paragraph to this" should be a new paragraph, so read accordingly! This is very important! Innocent lives are at stake!
Thank --YOU-- very much, but I can tell you (and I don't think it gets any more authoritative than me as to the content of the site) that NONE of the original game music is linked to. We don't have it on our server, we WON'T have it on our server, and we don't provide links to it anywhere else. That "Download" button is to the ARRANGEMENT that the person made, not the original game audio. We provide links to vgmusic.com, zophar.net, and other places where you CAN get the original music in transcribed or "ripped" form, but we provide no such archive on OUR site and we'll never link to those sites that DO have "mp3 copies" of the original game soundtracks, which - I do agree with you - are illegal and often highly damaging to the original artists who are trying to turn a profit from their sale. Some day one of MY soundtracks will be for sale, and although it's inevitable, I'm not happy about some kid ripping it and posting it on his GaMe MuZiK WaReZ site. If someone arranged it though, spending HOURS composing a song inspired by it, I would be highly flattered. Even if I weren't, though, he has every legal right to do it.
Let me use a whole separate paragraph for emphasis: This site hosts inspired/derivative arrangements, NOT THE ORIGINAL MUSIC. ANY original game music found on the site will be instantly deleted and possibly result in the removal of the infringing account!
I understand your confusion, and I am actually thankful that you have tripped upon this issue because it will cause me to add a new FAQ item to clear up the confusion before it even starts. Any press is good press, though, I guess;) So thank you.
Cheers,
-j
VGMix.com: The long and the short (okay, the LONG)
on
Video Game Music Mixes
·
· Score: 5, Informative
Hi folks, I'm virt, the guy who came up with the idea and helped design and implement the site (and whose wallet will ultimately suffer for the slashdotting;))
I just wanted to say thanks in advance for the support and the interest, and to get a couple of things cleared up.
First of all, we KNOW we're not the first. Believe me, we know. We're just the first site designed from the ground up for the purpose of multi-platform game arrangements. Most of us are people who are also (or have been) active contributors to remix.overclocked.org - OverClocked ReMix is the site that really started it all with game music arrangements, and it's incredible how a real living, breathing community can form around a single niche interest. However, OverClocked started out as a personal site that gradually featured other people's music until it became MOSTLY about other people's music. VGMix was made, back-end and all, specifically for harbouring a community. Few things are done by hand, because we want people to be able to put their stuff up without us babysitting, and let the moderation and reviewing dictate what's enjoyed without any one person trying to decide for the whole community. We're mostly musicians first, game players second, but the entire spectrum of musicians/gamers is represented here, and we all really love what we do. We DO, however, have a Panel of trusted arrangers who can pick what they consider to be exceptional songs and give them separate, "official" attention - but it in no way supersedes the original purpose of the site because it's a "side project.":)
I consulted with an attorney (got 5 of them in the family, holidays are JUST LOVELY) a long time before I set this site up, and there's nothing illegal about writing music inspired or derived from another's work. If it were REMIXES -- the original audio with a new beat slapped on, for example -- it would not only be illegal but immoral, too, if we didn't ask first. But what we're doing here is interpreting the original song in a new and very changed form. IANAL, but I don't like being sued so I made sure I talked to people who are. OverClocked ReMix is in the same boat. I'm sure someone could disagree or be misinformed and bring a suit against either site, but before it came to that we'd probably skip the hassle in the first place and zap the song. Not likely, though. Us game composer types (I also freelance commercially) are usually laid-back and flattered by arrangements, as long as there's no money being made from them.
Now, VGMUSIC.COM is another story entirely. They have nothing to do with us, but they are a fantastic resource for people who ARE with us. Vgmusic is a place where people submit General MIDI arrangements of game music, usually done by ear by a talented (or not) sequencer. It's like sheet-music transcriptions, just a database of music MIDI files. How is this a fantastic resource? Not everyone who arranges has the kind of ear that allows them to capture the melodies and harmonies by ear, so having a file that they can examine visually is a good thing for them.
So, to sum up, we are well aware that we're not the first, we're just the first set up this way; we're not doing anything illegal, though we'll have to work hard to ensure that our system is not abused; and there are other sites in the game music community that can help us through cooperation. We're not so arrogant as to think we're movers and shakers, we're just guys who love game music and we're trying to provide place to share it that is unlike the others that already exist.
It's a really tiny niche community but it's...really fun.
Slashdot Mirror
No, I meant for game music, not for anime, which is where Kanno has primarily based her career. If you want to branch out, there are plenty of people in other areas of the music industry with that kind of versatility. Kanno DEFINITELY has it, and is unbelievably brilliant - but she has done very little video game music in comparison, and it wasn't very great game music. Her anime soundtracks are some of the best ever, but it's hard to place her NES music over that of Koshiro. Legacy of the Wizard is hard to top.
-j
YES! That is me. If you can't tell yet, I have ..really a twisted sense of humour, and enjoy doing things that nobody would "waste their time" doing. What good is skill if you just use it to do stuff everyone else does?
I have no idea where that site went, either. I do remember seeing/hearing it way back when; I just got a "HEY WAIT" nostalgia buzz. If you find out, -please- fire off an e-mail and let me know. If you want more stuff like that Thong Song cover (I have a whole game boy page up) check http://virt.vgmix.com and get up to date!
-j
Site's just gone up this week. Give us a couple months. We'll have SoR and probably SoR2 stuff.
:)
FWIW, I agree with you, it's some of the finest music ever, and Yuzo Koshiro is my personal idol amongst Japanese game composers.
I don't think there's ANYONE out there with the stylistic versatility and technical prowess that Koshiro has. He can do a fully orchestrated soundtrack (Actraiser) then move on to house/dance (SoR) then to fantasy/jpop/progressive stuff (Ys) without blinking, and do them all brilliantly and in a sound engine that he programmed himself. He should be a lot more revered than he is.
-j
Well, I believe that you're mistaken in this particular context. But, because this is Slashdot, and because many people here will DIE trying to prove that they know more than you, I'm going to let it slide instead of arguing it into the ground - as I very well could. There's just more important stuff to focus on right now.
:)
I will continue to go with the pronouncement of the actual lawyers I have consulted over those of some random person on Slashdot. Please do not take this personally, because your viewpoint is intriguing and probably not entirely uncommon.
-j
"This is one of the reasons that midi-sequence repositories like vgmix.com come in handy"
I really should read through the Preview carefully before hitting submit. I meant to type "vgmusic.com." That's the useful midi-sequence repository. We're the useful, rippling-biceps, incredibly-amazing-in-bed, low-sodium, definitely-not-illegal arrangement site. Thanks!
-j
"music inspired by other music is not illegal, though, i must add."
Perhaps I have not made myself clear.
THESE. ARE. NOT. REMIXES.
In fact, the only reason we called it "VGMix" is because "VGArrange" sounds awkward. Arrangements are something else ENTIRELY. They are a completely different type of interpretation. The only case in which copyright could pose a problem is if audio samples from the original song are used. Remember the whole MP3.com fiasco about using sampled material in songs? That was that.
These songs that we have on our site do NOT use the original audio (there are exceptions, of course, but only in tiny snippets, samples. These are completely original, 100% from-scratch pieces of music that are only inspired or loosely melodically / chordally / rhythmically based on the original song. This is a hobby that must often be explained in-depth, but what it really is, down at the core, is composition practice. This is one of the reasons that midi-sequence repositories like vgmix.com come in handy - we're doing it all by ear!
I'm sure I will have to repeat this over and over again over the course of this article's visible lifespan, but vgmix.com does NOT deal in remixes. It's about derivative/inspired works that are created completely by us. We just don't really have a great term for it, so some people call them "remixes" because it's catchy, even though it's completely inaccurate. I just go with "arrangements."
-j
Yeah, but we were still around 9100 when the story broke on Slashdot. We've been mostly overwhelmed and slow, but our single server has - amazingly - weathered the entire thing so far, 5k hits (in 3 hours or so!) later. If you guys are looking for hosting for a similar-sized site, I can heartily recommend rackshack.net. Cheap, fast, and they have extremely responsive staff.
And of course, because I said that, the entire data center will be struck by lightning and incinerated while I'm asleep.
-j
You also have a very good point, one that deserves some more attention. For anyone reading who does not know what we're talking about:
A big point of contention in the freelancing community is the retention of copyrights. Generally the way it's done among beginners is that you sell your music and your rights for a flat rate, and then they "own" the music. However, once you get more into the business side of things and you start writing and revising your own contracts, or adding items to theirs with legal advice, you can switch it around so that you take a pay cut in exchange for the rights to the music.
This is how Tommy Tallarico (a very popular game composer) has a mansion and several sports cars - and undoubtedly many Fly Bitches. The REAL money comes from licensing, franchising and -- for example -- the use of the same music, all for separate royalties, in a PS2, XBox, and Gamecube game, and then a soundtrack album, a television show, a Best-Hits-Games CD-Rom, a commercial excerpt, etc.
That said, some companies who DO own the copyrights might decide to be a little more stringent about sites like this. However, Stateside, I've never heard of a company going after an amateur arranger who is not posing any financial threat to the company. The market for arrangement albums in the US is so amazingly sparse that it just doesn't make sense to throw money at interpreting copyright law to vilify fans who do this as a hobby. And yes, the law would have to be interpreted, as it's always been vague about derivative works. Based upon everything I've heard (from real, living lawyers) doing something like this for fun and COMPLETELY -not for profit- is totally legal.
So, yeah. They could go after us. But that doesn't mean we've done anything wrong, it means they think we have. That's what the law is for. For now, though, it looks like we will remain unbothered by nasty letters just like other arrangement sites.
-j
Well, it DOES make money in Japan, and as a result, fan-made arrangements ARE illegal in most cases, if I'm not mistaken. This hasn't happened yet in the states, and I'm seriously VERY doubtful that the American popular music market is going to be very receptive toward video game music ...arrangements, seeing as game music soundtracks themselves don't even sell too well to begin with, over here.
You have a very valid point in theory, but in practice it's just not panning out like that. American people as a whole don't seem to appreciate game music in the same way that Japanese people do, and while I'd like to kid myself into thinking that a few talented American composers can change that, it's just not happening yet. Game music is a cultural thing in Japan. Here, it's just seen as background noise by most people. There are the few for whom that's NOT true, and for them, there are many good import houses and then sites like this that can help satisfy their cravings.
OverClocked ReMix has been around for two years and - unless I'm mistaken - has remained unmolested by legal professionals because it really ISN'T a money-generating market here in the US and so no copyright sparring has taken place.
So.... Yes, it is going to last. Maybe not into the next decade, but for at least long enough to be remembered, absolutely.
-j
Just to clarify, the above post was in three paragraphs, but as I am Slashdot Inept(TM), it all got lumped together when I forgot to submit it as "plain text."
Where it says "i'll devote a whole paragraph to this" should be a new paragraph, so read accordingly! This is very important! Innocent lives are at stake!
-j
Thank --YOU-- very much, but I can tell you (and I don't think it gets any more authoritative than me as to the content of the site) that NONE of the original game music is linked to. We don't have it on our server, we WON'T have it on our server, and we don't provide links to it anywhere else. That "Download" button is to the ARRANGEMENT that the person made, not the original game audio. We provide links to vgmusic.com, zophar.net, and other places where you CAN get the original music in transcribed or "ripped" form, but we provide no such archive on OUR site and we'll never link to those sites that DO have "mp3 copies" of the original game soundtracks, which - I do agree with you - are illegal and often highly damaging to the original artists who are trying to turn a profit from their sale. Some day one of MY soundtracks will be for sale, and although it's inevitable, I'm not happy about some kid ripping it and posting it on his GaMe MuZiK WaReZ site. If someone arranged it though, spending HOURS composing a song inspired by it, I would be highly flattered. Even if I weren't, though, he has every legal right to do it. Let me use a whole separate paragraph for emphasis: This site hosts inspired/derivative arrangements, NOT THE ORIGINAL MUSIC. ANY original game music found on the site will be instantly deleted and possibly result in the removal of the infringing account! I understand your confusion, and I am actually thankful that you have tripped upon this issue because it will cause me to add a new FAQ item to clear up the confusion before it even starts. Any press is good press, though, I guess ;) So thank you.
Cheers,
-j
Hi folks, I'm virt, the guy who came up with the idea and helped design and implement the site (and whose wallet will ultimately suffer for the slashdotting ;))
:)
...really fun.
I just wanted to say thanks in advance for the support and the interest, and to get a couple of things cleared up.
First of all, we KNOW we're not the first. Believe me, we know. We're just the first site designed from the ground up for the purpose of multi-platform game arrangements. Most of us are people who are also (or have been) active contributors to remix.overclocked.org - OverClocked ReMix is the site that really started it all with game music arrangements, and it's incredible how a real living, breathing community can form around a single niche interest. However, OverClocked started out as a personal site that gradually featured other people's music until it became MOSTLY about other people's music. VGMix was made, back-end and all, specifically for harbouring a community. Few things are done by hand, because we want people to be able to put their stuff up without us babysitting, and let the moderation and reviewing dictate what's enjoyed without any one person trying to decide for the whole community. We're mostly musicians first, game players second, but the entire spectrum of musicians/gamers is represented here, and we all really love what we do. We DO, however, have a Panel of trusted arrangers who can pick what they consider to be exceptional songs and give them separate, "official" attention - but it in no way supersedes the original purpose of the site because it's a "side project."
I consulted with an attorney (got 5 of them in the family, holidays are JUST LOVELY) a long time before I set this site up, and there's nothing illegal about writing music inspired or derived from another's work. If it were REMIXES -- the original audio with a new beat slapped on, for example -- it would not only be illegal but immoral, too, if we didn't ask first. But what we're doing here is interpreting the original song in a new and very changed form. IANAL, but I don't like being sued so I made sure I talked to people who are. OverClocked ReMix is in the same boat. I'm sure someone could disagree or be misinformed and bring a suit against either site, but before it came to that we'd probably skip the hassle in the first place and zap the song. Not likely, though. Us game composer types (I also freelance commercially) are usually laid-back and flattered by arrangements, as long as there's no money being made from them.
Now, VGMUSIC.COM is another story entirely. They have nothing to do with us, but they are a fantastic resource for people who ARE with us. Vgmusic is a place where people submit General MIDI arrangements of game music, usually done by ear by a talented (or not) sequencer. It's like sheet-music transcriptions, just a database of music MIDI files. How is this a fantastic resource? Not everyone who arranges has the kind of ear that allows them to capture the melodies and harmonies by ear, so having a file that they can examine visually is a good thing for them.
So, to sum up, we are well aware that we're not the first, we're just the first set up this way; we're not doing anything illegal, though we'll have to work hard to ensure that our system is not abused; and there are other sites in the game music community that can help us through cooperation. We're not so arrogant as to think we're movers and shakers, we're just guys who love game music and we're trying to provide place to share it that is unlike the others that already exist.
It's a really tiny niche community but it's
-j