Re:This is nice, but when will they drop a camera.
on
Helicopter In Space
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· Score: 1
Too true. At a fraction of the cost of most national welfare or medical programs, we find out more about how the universe works, and get awesome technological spin-offs. And if eye-candy can help provide that, all the better. Scientists traditionally are weak on promoting the benefits of technology, but we should be able to provide lowest-common-denominator type material for the masses.
As for the benefits, let's see: satellites (communication, weather forecasting, environmental work, GPS), and quartz watches to name a few. For an economists persepctive, try a 43% rate of return on investments in Nasa up to 1975 (not sure if they mean cumulative, annual, or compounded annual. At 43%, who really cares).
It would be nice to generate excitement in science, and help drive more young people into a science-based career (as well as having more science jobs out there). Exploring the limits of our solar system and reaching into space are a great way of doing this.
The bacteria discovered in antarctic ice would either die on Titan or be totaly unable to reproduce. They were found near a freshwater lake under the ice. Lake = liquid water = 0 celsius (ignoring pressure effects). No reproduction = no world domination.
We are talking fundamentally different atmospheric and environmental conditions. Sure, there are organisms still around on earth which can survive a reducing atmosphere. However, they depend upon certain environmental conditions of temperature, pressure, food sources, and so on which are not going to be present on Titan. While earth bacteria may "survive" through dormancy, the risk is miniscule. Remember, the basic building blocks of life as we know it are not even going to be present, except at (unlikely) extremely low concentrations. There may be a mix of amino acids, but they will not be the right ones. Different stereochemistry and functional groups from what earthlife requires. Not "likes" but requires . There may be sugars, but they will not be the right ones. Without a biochemical pathway (specific enzymes) to deal with these compounds, earth life cannot sustain or reproduce itself.
Also, without liquid water (Titan has a surface temperature of -178 degrees) earth life has a rough time of it. I challenge you to name a single organism on this planet that grows or reproduces without any liquid water and the basic (specific to earth) chemical building blocks present. It may survive freezing, but survival is not a threat to any potential life on Titan.
Sure, NASA will be careful if this probe ever gets built, and it is worth taking all conceivable precautions, but the odds of finding anything other than a few interesting molecules on Titan are remote. You had better hope that Huygens (probe already on it's way to Titan's atmosphere) was cleaned to your specifications, as it may already be too late:)
1) A reactor will not give you a nuclear explosion under virtually any conditions. 2) Titan is big. Radius of 2575km (earth is approx 6370km). 5kg of plutonium sitting in one place would hardly be noticed. 3)You both should look at other posts before repeating stuff that has already been commented upon (look at comment #37 and the replies)
Re:Naturally occuring plutonium - Out of Africa
on
Helicopter In Space
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· Score: 1
I think I first read about Oklo in a Scientific American in the early 80's. It is fascinating, as the conditions had to be almost perfect for a sustainable chain reaction to occur.
I would like to draw your attention to this link. The following facts are taken from that page.
"The oxidation of plutonium represents a health hazard since the resulting stable compound, plutonium dioxide is in particulate form that can be easily inhaled. It tends to stay in the lungs for long periods, and is also transported to other parts of the body. Ingestion of plutonium is considerably less dangerous since very little is absorbed while the rest passes through the digestive system." Two points - firstly, it is rather unlikely that the plutonium will be oxidized on Titan, and secondly, the main problem with plutonium is when it is inhaled. There are not many humans or other complex organisms with lungs on Titan.
Reactivity of plutonium (remember, earth is a very reactive environment, with high temperatures and many oxidizing materials, especially when compared to Titan) "Non-divided metal at room temperature (corrodes)-relatively inert, slowly oxidizes". Not even remotely close to happening on Titan. If free hydrocarbons are present, there are not going to be many decent oxidizing agents left floating around.
Radioactive activity of plutonium is mainly alpha particles - Alpha particles are merely high speed helium ions, and will not make it far. They make it far enough to make a mess of your lungs when you inhale a bunch of finely divided plutonium particles, but alpha particles are easily stopped by a piece of paper.
Given that nuclear engineers are paid to be paranoid, expect the reactor core to be designed to remain intact after an impact. The density of plutonium is high enough that it would remain unmoved by a hurricane after it reaches the surface (twice as dense as lead, slightly denser than gold - basically, 5kg of metallic plutonium would take up about as much volume as 1 cup (250mL) of water). The total environmental impact of any crash would be limited to an exceedingly small area.
Supernova debris is present all over the universe. If they are finding it on earth (bother to read the second link?) you can bet that some is present on Titan. Also, just about everything in the universe is contaminated with radiactive material at some concentration (produced by those shiny things up in the sky called stars!!), not to mention the background radiation of the universe. Ever heard of cosmic rays? Titan should get some too. Just because it is concentrated or produced by man does not make plutonium extra special or more dangerous in any way than plenty of stuff that occurs naturally.
Darren
Naturally occuring plutonium - Out of Africa
on
Helicopter In Space
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· Score: 2
Ever heard of the Oklo reactor? I didn't think so.
Yes, boys and girls, a naturally occuring nuuuuuu-clear reactor. Produced all sorts of fun stuff including plutonium.
Also, WTF do you think happens when a star goes bang? Supernova -can get some fairly heavy stuff - they found radioactive iron-60, and expect plutonium to be found on earth in supernova debris (bottom of referenced page).
Not that it would go anywhere fast on Titan. Liquid hydrocarbons are rather poor solvents for metals and other ionic species. The material would decay where it landed, long before long it got anywhere. Too bad your greenpeace membership didn't include a science education.
Darren
Sorry, sterility is not that big an issue
on
Helicopter In Space
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· Score: 3
Did you notice the part about "lakes of liquid ethane" in the article?
Even if temperatures below -89C (B.P. of ethane) feel like "spitting distance" to you, consider that earthlife requires a lot of conditions - a certain temperature range, sunlight, available carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen (food). Odds are, the organisms you refer to are dormant at low temperatures on earth, and are only active when the temperatures are closer to 0C.
From the article: "Titan is too cold to permit anything but a whiff of oxygen-containing compounds in its atmosphere, and all the oxygen in its surface is locked up in ice". FYI, ice is a solid. Most lifeforms known to man depend upon reactions taking place in a liquid solution. Not too many lifeforms on this planet that can do the following: 1)make their own oxygen at temperatures below -89C. 2)get by with around 1/1000 of earth's sunlight levels at the surface. 3)extract nitrogen and scavenge carbon from sources on Titan for which such an organism likely has NO existing biochemical pathways. 4)sythesize their own DNA, proteins, and sugars. 5)assuming that the available concentrations of chemicals can support life, must have the ability to deal with a LOT of chemicals which are not comon on earth (amino acids with the wrong stereochemistry, sugars that have different substitutions than the relatively few sugars which are common on earth). 6)survive an 8 year space flight while meeting the above 5 conditions.
AFTER you find something that even remotely approaches the above conditions, call me.
The article states two things - 1)this idea is at the conceptual stage 2)a probe will arrive in 2004 which will investigate the organic chemistry of the atmosphere.
He is drumming up support for the future, but this is not, and may never end up on the drawing boards (although it is an exciting proposal that should be pursued). There are a few other reasons to wait a few years before finalizing the design of this helicopter 1)analytical technology is in a state of rapid development, with labs on a chip capable of detecting single molecules getting closer every day. In a few years, we will get much more bank for the buck (and more importantly, more data for every kilogram of instruments in the probe. The author of the article, Rlph Lorenz indicated a probe size of 100kg) 2) we should wait until the results from the 2004 probe have been analysed, in order to direct the research goal of the next probe. The data from the Huygens probe may send future exploration in a new direction.
I hope moderators will obliterate the ecofreaks whining about a plutonium power source, and the earth-firster flatlanders who see no value in the space program. Life is about risk, and as soon as we turn away from exploring and understanding this universe, we have given up our birthright.
While she is largely known for her fantasy and witch world novels, Andre Norton wrote some excellent (IMHO) sci-fi novels, which I remember as being great when I was a kid.
Try the Solar Queen series, along with the Zero stone series, and Forerunner books. Most of the ones I read were written before 1980, so they may be a little bit hard to find. She just started writing for the Solar Queen series again, so looks like I may have to visit a bookstore.
Also, while people generally abhor Pournelle, King David's Spaceship was excellent. And no-one appears to have mentioned Niven/Pournelles Oath of Fealty, The Integral Trees series, and The Legacy of Hereot (try reading a good translation of Beowulf first).
While he writes fantasy, anything by Guy Guvriel Kay is also worth reading. Try A Song for Arbonne.
While the net (final) change in energy levels is the same for any pathway, the length of any chemical pathway (number of steps) and efficiency of each step will have a MUCH greater impact on total energy requirements. While your initial activation energy is lowered by a catalyst or enzyme, once you put that energy in, it will come out as heat in the end (apart from the net energy change). Every time an enzyme accepts a molecule or assists in a reaction, there is some heat loss. Entropy in action.
I will agree that the power requirements for CO2 -> Methanol will be greater than the available energy in Methanol -> CO2.
Pretend that you are buying it for your younger sibling/nephew / niece / etc.
I am looking forward to my 1 year old son being old enough to play with lego, as I will then have the perfect excuse (until we start fighting over who gets to play with it). Luckily I will have a size advantage for the next 15 years or so.
Will the final license (and packaging) for Q3 allow for installations to multiple operating systems on the same machine? For example, I run a dual boot W98/ Linux system at home, and wonder if Q3 will be shipped in a format which allows me to install on either (or both) operating systems? Is it feasible to package the game engine for multiple OS on a single CD, with shared texture and world files that can be read by all Q3 game engines on any platform?
In the original Beowulf, Grendel had a mother. Once Beowulf killed Grendel, the mother arose from the swamps, and started wreaking some real havoc. Beowulf killed her too, if I recall correctly, but she was not as much of a sissy as her progeny, Grendel was. To carry the analogy from Tuxowulf onwards, one wonders what product MS has waiting in the wings to fill the role of NTendel's mother.
>Heck, there are lots of chemical reactions where >metals, once ignited, would burn underwater...
Yeah, and I would like to see you point out a single instance of palladium or any other platinum group metal exhibiting such behavior.
The alkali and alkali earth metals such as Na, Ca, Mg will burn underwater (sodium group metals are exiting to watch - evolution of hydrogen gas, and heat, common demonstration in high school chemistry), but Pd? Not bloody likely.
To be honest, I am not familiar with past or current SRI research.
However, SRI does not appear to be the only group looking into this. The fact that researchers from Los Alamos are presently researching this (10 years later) may serve as an indicator that there may be some substance to these claims, and that it may be worthy of future research.
It appears that many of the cold fusion researchers are far brighter than I am (according to the Wired article, James Patterson, reported as the co-inventor of liquid chromatography is involved. I was unable to confirm the claim of his co-development, as Csaba Horvàth at Yale University is named in this article on the history of chromatography, under HPLC http://pubs.acs.org/hotartcl/tcaw/98/sep/creat.htm l).
You night wish to review the contents of this website. http://www.rsrch.com/saturna/index.html It is the webpage of Dr. Russ George (I first found it this morning, cannot remember from where). He is involved with research into the cold fusion phenomenon, on a different tack than McKubre.
Given that scientists are protective of their turf (I have heard of horror stories about the garbage involved in post-grad degrees), and, due to peer pressure and resultant risk to tenure, funding and reputation, many are reluctant to endorse anything that is not ABSOLUTELY certain.
Unfortunately, some kooks and crackpots appear to be involved with cold fusion. This should not be used to denigrate the apparently solid research being completed by competent scientists in the field.
Slashdot Mirror
Too true. At a fraction of the cost of most national welfare or medical programs, we find out more about how the universe works, and get awesome technological spin-offs. And if eye-candy can help provide that, all the better. Scientists traditionally are weak on promoting the benefits of technology, but we should be able to provide lowest-common-denominator type material for the masses.
As for the benefits, let's see: satellites (communication, weather forecasting, environmental work, GPS), and quartz watches to name a few. For an economists persepctive, try a 43% rate of return on investments in Nasa up to 1975 (not sure if they mean cumulative, annual, or compounded annual. At 43%, who really cares).
It would be nice to generate excitement in science, and help drive more young people into a science-based career (as well as having more science jobs out there). Exploring the limits of our solar system and reaching into space are a great way of doing this.
Darren
The bacteria discovered in antarctic ice would either die on Titan or be totaly unable to reproduce. They were found near a freshwater lake under the ice. Lake = liquid water = 0 celsius (ignoring pressure effects). No reproduction = no world domination.
:)
We are talking fundamentally different atmospheric and environmental conditions. Sure, there are organisms still around on earth which can survive a reducing atmosphere. However, they depend upon certain environmental conditions of temperature, pressure, food sources, and so on which are not going to be present on Titan. While earth bacteria may "survive" through dormancy, the risk is miniscule. Remember, the basic building blocks of life as we know it are not even going to be present, except at (unlikely) extremely low concentrations. There may be a mix of amino acids, but they will not be the right ones. Different stereochemistry and functional groups from what earthlife requires. Not "likes" but requires . There may be sugars, but they will not be the right ones. Without a biochemical pathway (specific enzymes) to deal with these compounds, earth life cannot sustain or reproduce itself.
Also, without liquid water (Titan has a surface temperature of -178 degrees) earth life has a rough time of it. I challenge you to name a single organism on this planet that grows or reproduces without any liquid water and the basic (specific to earth) chemical building blocks present. It may survive freezing, but survival is not a threat to any potential life on Titan.
Sure, NASA will be careful if this probe ever gets built, and it is worth taking all conceivable precautions, but the odds of finding anything other than a few interesting molecules on Titan are remote. You had better hope that Huygens (probe already on it's way to Titan's atmosphere) was cleaned to your specifications, as it may already be too late
Darren
1) A reactor will not give you a nuclear explosion under virtually any conditions.
2) Titan is big. Radius of 2575km (earth is approx 6370km). 5kg of plutonium sitting in one place would hardly be noticed.
3)You both should look at other posts before repeating stuff that has already been commented upon (look at comment #37 and the replies)
I think I first read about Oklo in a Scientific American in the early 80's. It is fascinating, as the conditions had to be almost perfect for a sustainable chain reaction to occur.
I would like to draw your attention to this link. The following facts are taken from that page.
"The oxidation of plutonium represents a health hazard since the resulting stable compound, plutonium dioxide is in particulate form that can be easily inhaled. It tends to stay in the lungs for long periods, and is also transported to other parts of the body. Ingestion of plutonium is considerably less dangerous since very little is absorbed while the rest passes through the digestive system." Two points - firstly, it is rather unlikely that the plutonium will be oxidized on Titan, and secondly, the main problem with plutonium is when it is inhaled. There are not many humans or other complex organisms with lungs on Titan.
Reactivity of plutonium (remember, earth is a very reactive environment, with high temperatures and many oxidizing materials, especially when compared to Titan)
"Non-divided metal at room temperature (corrodes)-relatively inert, slowly oxidizes". Not even remotely close to happening on Titan. If free hydrocarbons are present, there are not going to be many decent oxidizing agents left floating around.
Radioactive activity of plutonium is mainly alpha particles - Alpha particles are merely high speed helium ions, and will not make it far. They make it far enough to make a mess of your lungs when you inhale a bunch of finely divided plutonium particles, but alpha particles are easily stopped by a piece of paper.
Given that nuclear engineers are paid to be paranoid, expect the reactor core to be designed to remain intact after an impact. The density of plutonium is high enough that it would remain unmoved by a hurricane after it reaches the surface (twice as dense as lead, slightly denser than gold - basically, 5kg of metallic plutonium would take up about as much volume as 1 cup (250mL) of water). The total environmental impact of any crash would be limited to an exceedingly small area.
Supernova debris is present all over the universe. If they are finding it on earth (bother to read the second link?) you can bet that some is present on Titan. Also, just about everything in the universe is contaminated with radiactive material at some concentration (produced by those shiny things up in the sky called stars!!), not to mention the background radiation of the universe. Ever heard of cosmic rays? Titan should get some too. Just because it is concentrated or produced by man does not make plutonium extra special or more dangerous in any way than plenty of stuff that occurs naturally.
Darren
Ever heard of the Oklo reactor? I didn't think so.
Yes, boys and girls, a naturally occuring nuuuuuu-clear reactor. Produced all sorts of fun stuff including plutonium.
Also, WTF do you think happens when a star goes bang? Supernova -can get some fairly heavy stuff - they found radioactive iron-60, and expect plutonium to be found on earth in supernova debris (bottom of referenced page).
Not that it would go anywhere fast on Titan. Liquid hydrocarbons are rather poor solvents for metals and other ionic species. The material would decay where it landed, long before long it got anywhere. Too bad your greenpeace membership didn't include a science education.
Darren
Did you notice the part about "lakes of liquid ethane" in the article?
Even if temperatures below -89C (B.P. of ethane) feel like "spitting distance" to you, consider that earthlife requires a lot of conditions - a certain temperature range, sunlight, available carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen (food). Odds are, the organisms you refer to are dormant at low temperatures on earth, and are only active when the temperatures are closer to 0C.
From the article: "Titan is too cold to permit anything but a whiff of oxygen-containing compounds in its atmosphere, and all the oxygen in its surface is locked up in ice". FYI, ice is a solid. Most lifeforms known to man depend upon reactions taking place in a liquid solution. Not too many lifeforms on this planet that can do the following:
1)make their own oxygen at temperatures below -89C.
2)get by with around 1/1000 of earth's sunlight levels at the surface.
3)extract nitrogen and scavenge carbon from sources on Titan for which such an organism likely has NO existing biochemical pathways.
4)sythesize their own DNA, proteins, and sugars.
5)assuming that the available concentrations of chemicals can support life, must have the ability to deal with a LOT of chemicals which are not comon on earth (amino acids with the wrong stereochemistry, sugars that have different substitutions than the relatively few sugars which are common on earth).
6)survive an 8 year space flight while meeting the above 5 conditions.
AFTER you find something that even remotely approaches the above conditions, call me.
Darren
The article states two things -
1)this idea is at the conceptual stage
2)a probe will arrive in 2004 which will investigate the organic chemistry of the atmosphere.
He is drumming up support for the future, but this is not, and may never end up on the drawing boards (although it is an exciting proposal that should be pursued). There are a few other reasons to wait a few years before finalizing the design of this helicopter
1)analytical technology is in a state of rapid development, with labs on a chip capable of detecting single molecules getting closer every day. In a few years, we will get much more bank for the buck (and more importantly, more data for every kilogram of instruments in the probe. The author of the article, Rlph Lorenz indicated a probe size of 100kg)
2) we should wait until the results from the 2004 probe have been analysed, in order to direct the research goal of the next probe. The data from the Huygens probe may send future exploration in a new direction.
I hope moderators will obliterate the ecofreaks whining about a plutonium power source, and the earth-firster flatlanders who see no value in the space program. Life is about risk, and as soon as we turn away from exploring and understanding this universe, we have given up our birthright.
Darren
While she is largely known for her fantasy and witch world novels, Andre Norton wrote some excellent (IMHO) sci-fi novels, which I remember as being great when I was a kid.
Try the Solar Queen series, along with the Zero stone series, and Forerunner books. Most of the ones I read were written before 1980, so they may be a little bit hard to find. She just started writing for the Solar Queen series again, so looks like I may have to visit a bookstore.
Also, while people generally abhor Pournelle, King David's Spaceship was excellent. And no-one appears to have mentioned Niven/Pournelles Oath of Fealty, The Integral Trees series, and The Legacy of Hereot (try reading a good translation of Beowulf first).
While he writes fantasy, anything by Guy Guvriel Kay is also worth reading. Try A Song for Arbonne.
Darren Schlamp
While the net (final) change in energy levels is the same for any pathway, the length of any chemical pathway (number of steps) and efficiency of each step will have a MUCH greater impact on total energy requirements. While your initial activation energy is lowered by a catalyst or enzyme, once you put that energy in, it will come out as heat in the end (apart from the net energy change). Every time an enzyme accepts a molecule or assists in a reaction, there is some heat loss. Entropy in action.
I will agree that the power requirements for CO2 -> Methanol will be greater than the available energy in Methanol -> CO2.
Darren Schlamp
Pretend that you are buying it for your younger sibling /nephew / niece / etc.
I am looking forward to my 1 year old son being old enough to play with lego, as I will then have the perfect excuse (until we start fighting over who gets to play with it). Luckily I will have a size advantage for the next 15 years or so.
Darren Schlamp
Will the final license (and packaging) for Q3 allow for installations to multiple operating systems on the same machine? For example, I run a dual boot W98/ Linux system at home, and wonder if Q3 will be shipped in a format which allows me to install on either (or both) operating systems? Is it feasible to package the game engine for multiple OS on a single CD, with shared texture and world files that can be read by all Q3 game engines on any platform?
Darren Schlamp
In the original Beowulf, Grendel had a mother. Once Beowulf killed Grendel, the mother arose from the swamps, and started wreaking some real havoc. Beowulf killed her too, if I recall correctly, but she was not as much of a sissy as her progeny, Grendel was.
To carry the analogy from Tuxowulf onwards, one wonders what product MS has waiting in the wings to fill the role of NTendel's mother.
Darren Schlamp
>Heck, there are lots of chemical reactions where
>metals, once ignited, would burn underwater...
Yeah, and I would like to see you point out a single instance of palladium or any other platinum group metal exhibiting such behavior.
The alkali and alkali earth metals such as Na, Ca, Mg will burn underwater (sodium group metals are exiting to watch - evolution of hydrogen gas, and heat, common demonstration in high school chemistry), but Pd? Not bloody likely.
Darren Schlamp
>The problem is that it is difficult to measure
>accurately just how much electricity was pumped
>into the electrode to begin with!!
Voltmeter measures voltage. Ammeter measures current. power = voltage x current.
energy = power x time.
Where is the problem?
Darren Schlamp
To be honest, I am not familiar with past or current SRI research.
m l).
However, SRI does not appear to be the only group looking into this. The fact that researchers from Los Alamos are presently researching this (10 years later) may serve as an indicator that there may be some substance to these claims, and that it may be worthy of future research.
It appears that many of the cold fusion researchers are far brighter than I am (according to the Wired article, James Patterson, reported as the co-inventor of liquid chromatography is involved. I was unable to confirm the claim of his co-development, as Csaba Horvàth at Yale University is named in this article on the history of chromatography, under HPLC http://pubs.acs.org/hotartcl/tcaw/98/sep/creat.ht
You night wish to review the contents of this website.
http://www.rsrch.com/saturna/index.html
It is the webpage of Dr. Russ George (I first found it this morning, cannot remember from where). He is involved with research into the cold fusion phenomenon, on a different tack than McKubre.
Given that scientists are protective of their turf (I have heard of horror stories about the garbage involved in post-grad degrees), and, due to peer pressure and resultant risk to tenure, funding and reputation, many are reluctant to endorse anything that is not ABSOLUTELY certain.
Unfortunately, some kooks and crackpots appear to be involved with cold fusion. This should not be used to denigrate the apparently solid research being completed by competent scientists in the field.
Darren Schlamp