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Helicopter In Space
LazyGun wrote to us about
the next generation of Titan Explorers -- the Titan Organic Explorer. The cool part is that it's a helicopter, of sorts. The probe is an interesting proposal, especially to test some of the interesting potential organic properties of Titan's make-up.
considering the kind of magnetic field titan is supposed to have, a sork of electro-levitating parafoil could work out quite nicely, and not have any of the power issues the you'd have with a helicopter.
I for one would love to live on Mars. Even living on the Moon would be pretty cool.
Titan's atmosphere contains lots hydrocarbons, meaning that it could perhaps support life. That makes it interesting, but it also means that any spacecraft must be highly sterilized to keep earthlife from maybe getting a foothold on Titan. Yeah, it's really cold. But there's earthlife in places that get within spitting distance of those temperatures -- and it's not entirely sure that everywhere on Titan is that cold. Previous sterilization efforts have been fairly half-assed. This one shouldn't be.
InstaPundit! Ahead of the Curve Since 30 Minutes Ago
"To get the craft to Titan, it would need to be stowed in a small entry vehicle with a heat shield. As this enters the atmosphere, a parachute will extract the helicopter from the heat shield and the rotors will spring into action.
Now comes one of the mission's greatest challenges: how do you control this helicopter in flight? It takes over an hour for radio signals from Earth to reach Titan, so the craft will have to fly itself. NASA engineers are already working on smart software to control space probes and spot signs of life..."
And the rotors spring into action! I wonder if that is before or *after* it crashes into an ethane lake and loses contact with NASA?
And, the smart software to control space probes and spot signs of life! That's rich. While we're at it lets write some software to create world peace and feed the masses!
Remember this story... because you'll probably be reading about it again in a few years:
NASA Loses Helicopter on Titan!
I presume you've read the article... Heh!
I know we've all been raised on Star Trek, but few people have qualms about stepping on an ant on their way to work. Is extra-terrestrial life all that different?
Certainly, until we have an understanding of things, we should not blindly wipe them out. But, if you recall the precautions that were taken by NASA when the first moon rocks were brought back to Earth.. We'', they're professionals after all, they know what they're doing.
Personally I'm torn on the issue. (I guess I need some more immediate problems, no?) On the one hand, we shouldn't soil yet another planet/moon/world just because we can, but on the other hand... Damn! Why not? If there's gold in them there hills, and it keep our yard a little cleaner... Maslow's pyramid comes to mind.
And hey, if there is no life there, and we use it as a petri-dish to make some, then all the better. One step closer to realizing Godhood.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
Ah, the joys of running Lose98 and Netscape on my only box with a modem--clicked on the "power issues" link and the machine rebooted. At least, it didn't powercycle.
Gotta get me a Linmodem...
The article states two things -
1)this idea is at the conceptual stage
2)a probe will arrive in 2004 which will investigate the organic chemistry of the atmosphere.
He is drumming up support for the future, but this is not, and may never end up on the drawing boards (although it is an exciting proposal that should be pursued). There are a few other reasons to wait a few years before finalizing the design of this helicopter
1)analytical technology is in a state of rapid development, with labs on a chip capable of detecting single molecules getting closer every day. In a few years, we will get much more bank for the buck (and more importantly, more data for every kilogram of instruments in the probe. The author of the article, Rlph Lorenz indicated a probe size of 100kg)
2) we should wait until the results from the 2004 probe have been analysed, in order to direct the research goal of the next probe. The data from the Huygens probe may send future exploration in a new direction.
I hope moderators will obliterate the ecofreaks whining about a plutonium power source, and the earth-firster flatlanders who see no value in the space program. Life is about risk, and as soon as we turn away from exploring and understanding this universe, we have given up our birthright.
Darren
Slashdot - the place where you can look like a genius by restating the obvious
I know open source get's brought up at every given opportunity around here but the "smart software" to control the helicopter seems like a good open source project to me. I'm thinking a Mozilla style effort? NASA still does alot of the work but releases all the code and includes bug fixes and improvements from the community at large. I know that if I could code worth a shit this is a project I'd like to be involved in. Besides with thousands of eyes reviewing the code you know they'd get their metric conversions right!! ;->
"Listen: We are here on Earth to fart around. Don't let anybody tell you any different!" - Kurt Vonnegut
I don't want to get off on a rant here, but i seem to remember the people at NASA (God luv em) discussing what a technical feat it was just to remote control the Mars Rover. They were just trying to keep it from getting stuck in a ditch or on a rock. How the hell does the guy who wrote that article think they are going to navigate a HELICOPTER?!!?!?
They talked about the AI helicopter being tested by Carnegie Mellon, but then they discussed the "Large
raindrops of methane, almost a centimetre across, drift slowly from the red haze. Geysers spout pale plumes of ethane high into the sky." Add this to the facts that the gravity is one seventh that of Earth, and no one knows what the surface looks like, and NASA has some serious planning to do.
I'm a big proponent of space exploration, but ideas like this are just too sci-fi.
Ummm, Jon, aren't you supposed to be dead...? - Otter(3800)
In order for an aircraft to work efficiently it has to be calculated out just right. For example, the blades on the helicopter wont generate enough lift if the atmosphere is very thin. And to complicate things, helicopters are ill suited for high winds due to its design. The helicopters power is thust downward for lift and at an angle to go somewhere. Because of this power requirement to lift up there is less forward power. A plane, however, has full forward power which is one reason a plane can go many times faster than a helicopter. The problem is with the high winds and the helicopter can fight them going nowhere. There just wouldn't be power to move. Then there is turblence. Too much turblence can rip any aircraft apart in which a helicopter is not an exception.
This idea just might flop. I can trust NASA to get around these limitations, right? RIGHT?
RTGs, I had to laugh the first time I heard about these things in a spacecraft design course. 5% efficient.... Last I read, the conventional thinking was that they could be engineered up to 10% efficiency.... looks like they need more work. Gotta admit that they are dahm reliable though... both voyagers and galileo are still running on these things (they are still running aren't they) . Many other missions rel(y, ied) on them as well.
By the way... I think you know what happens if the rocket carrying these babies up accidentally doesn't allow the craft to reach orbit. Raining plutonium down on the earth... man does that ruin a weekend barbecue.
-- Phenym
As far as I know, Plutonium does not occur naturally anywhere in the universe. It is sort of man's most toxic contribution to nature.
Do we really want to put that stuff into a helicopter that is going to fly itself using the best technology available today? I think we should do that only if we want to share our hoards of plutonium with the fanciful organisms that may exist there.
A better idea is to wait for a better idea.
I doubt that NASA has cleared the use of a helecopter in Titan's airspace with the Titan Aviation Administration. Flying an unauthorized, not to mention unidentified, flying craft without agency saction could result in a diplomatic incident, and possibly an interplanetary war. Haven't these guys read any of the popular fiction?
Gonzo
Did you notice the part about "lakes of liquid ethane" in the article?
Even if temperatures below -89C (B.P. of ethane) feel like "spitting distance" to you, consider that earthlife requires a lot of conditions - a certain temperature range, sunlight, available carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen (food). Odds are, the organisms you refer to are dormant at low temperatures on earth, and are only active when the temperatures are closer to 0C.
From the article: "Titan is too cold to permit anything but a whiff of oxygen-containing compounds in its atmosphere, and all the oxygen in its surface is locked up in ice". FYI, ice is a solid. Most lifeforms known to man depend upon reactions taking place in a liquid solution. Not too many lifeforms on this planet that can do the following:
1)make their own oxygen at temperatures below -89C.
2)get by with around 1/1000 of earth's sunlight levels at the surface.
3)extract nitrogen and scavenge carbon from sources on Titan for which such an organism likely has NO existing biochemical pathways.
4)sythesize their own DNA, proteins, and sugars.
5)assuming that the available concentrations of chemicals can support life, must have the ability to deal with a LOT of chemicals which are not comon on earth (amino acids with the wrong stereochemistry, sugars that have different substitutions than the relatively few sugars which are common on earth).
6)survive an 8 year space flight while meeting the above 5 conditions.
AFTER you find something that even remotely approaches the above conditions, call me.
Darren
Slashdot - the place where you can look like a genius by restating the obvious
Well, that'll really make those top secret black helicopters stealth then, won't it? :)
--
--
The real Raunchola isn't cool enough to have any imposters
Location: A rocky patch of desert land located a few miles past the outskirts of a thriving metropolitan city. A lonely interstate highway is all that passes through the area. The climate is usually hot, but strangely, a small, but heavy, blizzard is rapidly approaching. Snow begins to fall heavily over the desert as the dirt on the ground begins to freeze over. The land itself is flat and nondescript, save for a large rock formation near where the highway runs. A large opening is present in the rock, marking the entrance of a vast cave. Oddly, several cables jut out of the cave's entrance. Large clouds of green smoke are also escaping from the cave.
The clouds of smoke suddenly cease to appear as the sound of footsteps come from the cave. As the footsteps grow louder, a large caveman stumbles out of the cave. He staggers around confused, as if under some sort of spell. In his left hand are the remnants of a used marijuana cigarette, and in his right hand he clutches a compact disc, on which the letters "open source" can be seen. On close inspection, the caveman appears to be none other than OOG_THE_CAVEMAN. As the blizzard roars, OOG, clearly affected by marijuana, walks aimlessly around the land.
OOG_THE_CAVEMAN: ARRRGHHHH!!! THIS GOOD CAVE-WEED!!! OOG LIKE BOGARTING FAT JOINT!!! OOG FUCKING HIGH AS HELL!!! MUST GO OUT AND GATHER FRITOS TO SATISFY OVERPOWERING MUNCHIES!!!
OOG walks in no clear direction. He appears to be heading towards the desolate highway which streaks across the land. But being incapacitated, OOG has great difficulty walking and maintaining his balance. Without warning, OOG stumbles over a rock and falls flat to the frozen ground, only a few yards from the highway. Because he is so stoned, OOG is unable to get up.
OOG_THE_CAVEMAN: OOG FALLEN AND OOG CAN'T GET UP!!! OOG ALSO HAVE PROBLEM STANDING UP FROM GROUND!!! CAVE-WEED REALLY GOING TO OOG HEAD!!!
OOG, unable to get up, passes out while lying on the frozen ground. The snow falls mercilessly and freezes to form ice as it hits the ground. After a few hours, our hero OOG lies trapped in a block of ice near the side of the highway.
The storm suddenly vanishes, but OOG is still embedded in the ice. Suddenly, a large, obnoxious SUV bearing several Harvard bumper stickers and driven by two yuppie students appears on the highway. One of them notices the frozen caveman and tells the driver to stop. Intrigued, they go outside where OOG is imprisoned in ice and stare at the block.
Student #1: Why isn't that OOG_THE_CAVEMAN frozen in that block of ice?
Student #2: Indeed it IS OOG! I remember reading many of his insightful posts on the website, Slashdot!
Student #1: Yes, he makes many quality posts... but many of those bad moderators are prejudiced towards intelligent caveman and abuse the 'overrated' tag to moderate him down without risking justice via metamoderation.
Student #2: Well, I think we should help out OOG and thaw him out. I just hope he doesn't break our heads with his open source cd.
The students pick up the large block of ice with OOG in it and stuff it in the vast, vast, vast backseat of their ridiculously oversized SUV. They head back on a long road trip to Harvard, which they both attend. When they arrive, they head to their dorm, where they leave OOG to thaw out in the bathtub, and then go out to eat. OOG wakes up, but because he is still incredibly high, has no idea what he is doing. He stumbles out, wanders around the Harvard campus, inadvertently attending several advanced law classes and learning much about law in the process. Dizzy and still stoned, OOG finally staggers into a large computer lab, where he passes out on the floor.
to be continued...
OOG THE OPEN SOURCE CAVEMAN!!! OOG BREAK HEAD WITH OPEN SOURCE CD!!!
And what then: proteins? sugars? Maybe even primitive living cells? The only way to discover how far along the road to life this chemistry has gone is to sample these oases on Titan.
Why do we need space missions to do this? It sounds like we could do this and better down at the local Wendy's salad bar!
prosebeforehos.com
ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS.
EXCEPT ONE.
TITAN.
ATTEMPT NO LANDINGS THERE.
Keep yer whirly-butt gizmo off Europa, too.
(Mods: if ya don't get the ref, maybe spare my karma, mmkay?)
Well, a helicopter would need to be able to remain stable on it's own because of the huge controling delay. That's take major processing power assuming it may have to combat high winds and such. Another problem is to remain stable on its own, but I'm sure NASA could work that out somehow. Also, what happens if it tips over... It's screwed! It would be very difficult to right a helicopter. I think what they should base the flying device upon is the remote controlled submersables. granted, you'd need a lot more power than a submersable, but it'd bee a lot better than a helicopter.
I dunno... maybe I'm just another fool on the hill.
-Derick
-Derick
This isn't a web browser. It's a spacecraft being sent millions of kilometers into space to a moon of a different planet after several years of travel.
It is a critical system. Do you really want a "Mozilla style effort" on your car's ABS brakes? How about a bazaar development model for a aircraft's fly-by-wire system.
Try looking at the space shuttles programs. They aren't written in C. This spacecraft would have it's own programming language, and knowing NASA it will have 5-6 code audits for each line of code in the system. Why bother making it open source when most hackers are not interested in the code proofs and hardcore language semantics that would be required to even be able to talk to the software team on this project.
Ever heard of the Oklo reactor? I didn't think so.
Yes, boys and girls, a naturally occuring nuuuuuu-clear reactor. Produced all sorts of fun stuff including plutonium.
Also, WTF do you think happens when a star goes bang? Supernova -can get some fairly heavy stuff - they found radioactive iron-60, and expect plutonium to be found on earth in supernova debris (bottom of referenced page).
Not that it would go anywhere fast on Titan. Liquid hydrocarbons are rather poor solvents for metals and other ionic species. The material would decay where it landed, long before long it got anywhere. Too bad your greenpeace membership didn't include a science education.
Darren
Slashdot - the place where you can look like a genius by restating the obvious
Excuse me but as far as I understand a hovercraft could do the same job at a much cheaper cost.
**Life is too short to be serious**
How sure can you be that Microsoft won't sue over that name? :P
- Chuq
I find the chances of an AI controlled aircraft successfully navigating Titan highly unlikely to succeed. Even if a smaller "scout" were shot forward in descent to guage initial control settings, this type of craft is far too high of a risk.
That said, I believe that one or more "pogostick" balls would be better able to spread around the surface(at 1/7 gravity they'd go far for the energy) and randomly sample the terrain.
A small scout dropped on a first orbit could determine suface definitions and thus, determine drop coordinates for the probes.
Sensors on each probe, combined with a minimum of six "pogos" per probe, would allow rudementary navigation as well as allowing transmission of current positions for scientists to examine and determine next hops without wasting anything more than minimal energy.
Then again, we could drop Ethane powered Jet-Skis into the Ethane lakes and show those damn Aminos what partyin's all about!!
effer
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal loboto...Hey, what's in this bottle?
With topic subjects like
"Giant Rotors"
and
"Sterility"
I can only wonder at the pr0n titles that await us should the "Titanic Organic Exploder" become reality!
Blar.
(If you subscribe to the concept of Gaia)
We are the fruiting mechanism of Gaia, in that, like a fruit tree, Gaia is making sacrifices for us, in order that Gaia may reproduce.
You could say it is our duty to insert some terrestial micro-organisms.
Now where did OOG leave that weed ?
Life is just a bowl of All Bran - Small Faces
Remember the Apache? We've had a hard time getting those to stay in the air, even with a pilot and on Earth.
Da Vinci is sure to be turning in his grave.
Donate background CPU time to fight cancer.
I see a lot of posters here talking about how this proposal isnt practical, that its beyond current technology, or that NASA is too incompentent to land a probe on its own rear. The thing is though, none of the elements necessary flat out -cant- be done. The technology may not be there today, but the precursors definitely are. It's not a matter of if its possible, but when, and whether people are going to step up to the challenge, or sit around making excuses, cutting budgets, and watching ourselves die from overpopulation. If a mission like this one does not happen in our lifetimes (making the broad generalization that all /.ers are 15-30 here), it will not be because the technology isnt up to snuff, but because of doubt and shortsightedness.
wisconsin does not exist.
I......I'm......you.......
No, it's not worth it.
You, my friend, are simply an idiot.
And as a matter of fact I would love to live on the moon. It has one hell of a view.
-supruzr
One misgiving i have about that whole proposal.. There's no problem with using plutonium to power a probe out in the middle of space, but on a potentially life-harboring planet? If we dont think the technology's safe to use on Earth, why would we use it on what could be an alien ecosystem we supposedly dont want to contaminate. This thing better be pretty damn well shielded. even if there's no life, can't radiation cause alterations in organic molecules, which would screw up the data? And what if it crashes? and what's the probe supposed to do when it's done? land, and sit there for eternity on the hope that no plutonium ever leaks out?
If you're feeling compelled to reply to this because u think im giving into uninformed hysteria, please do so, but with -facts- not counterpropaganda. i do admit that my knowledge of this technology and its possible risks is not very deep.
wisconsin does not exist.
How can the second post be redundant, particularly when the first post just said "First Post"?
ObOnTopic: Colonies on Titan would be a bad idea. It's way too cold there and the amount of light reaching there is far too small to build a sustainable colony for earth-borne life.
--Joe--
Program Intellivision!
I see some folks saying this outright can't be done and I just disagree.
:)
There are many examples of computers (and not even fast ones by today's standards) controlling aircraft that were once thought impossible to control. Look at the F-16 and the fly-by-wire system... even better, look at the B-2 bomber and it's flying wing design. I remember reading somewhere that the B-2 just simply wouldn't be able to fly in a stable, controlled manner without the assistance of computers.
Now translate this into a completely foreign environment such as Titan. We have to assume we will know nothing about the atmosphere except for an approximation of density and maybe a reasonable idea of temperatures. We also don't have the benefit of GPS or any other method to know for certain where we are precisely on the surface.
Systems based on interia and gyroscopes have been in use on commercial aircraft from the very beginning. There were computers dumber than your TI calculator flying 707's way back in the day.
Titan has gravity, and inertia is constant, so that's really all we need. We of course won't know exactly where we are at any given point, but we could certainly make a reasonable guess.
As for winds and obstacles and so on, doppler radar could determine movement relative to the ground with a high level of precision, as well as altitude and flight-path obstacles.
Someone brought up the point that if the thing dropped on it's side, it would be screwed. This isn't really true because you could build struts that would right the craft if it ever tipped over. You could also provide a detection mechanism to identify when a landing is being attempted on uneven terrain and jump back into the air for another try.
I can't vouch for the fact this will all fit into 1000Kg, though! It sure would be a cool project even here on Earth. Maybe we could even stick some Penguin-love in it.
Any takers?
--
All opinions presented here aren't mine.
The use of a helicopter in such an environment is a wonderfully original concept. Leonardo Da Vinci's invention sure has come a long way :)
De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum
what does "potentatial" means?
*But* with a craft in the sky, we could use sonar to map the interior. Granted, you'd have to generate one heck of a bang to map any sizeable portion of the body of Jupiter, but maybe we could encourage an asteroid into the far side of Jupiter from our airship-probe or something.
Woo woo, Titan might have some simple amino acids. It's too bad the only things going interplanetary are public interest gimmicks. F*ck one more probe to somewhere we'll never go. Get a f'ing base on the moon for manufacturing ships and landing tools. Then we can realistically study many of the places our local universe has to offer.
[The following locations will experience meteors:]
[Alaska * 3:12am]
[Brazil * 4:48am]
[Australia * 7:33am]
[E. Russia 7:58am]
[Mongolia * 8:25am]
[Mid East * 11:02am]
[W. Russia * 12:31pm]
[N. Africa * 1:00pm]
[S. Africa * 1:11pm]
[Atlantic @ 2:50pm]
[US/Canada * 3:40pm]
* extinction level event
@ planetsplitter
You remember wrong. As others have pointed out, Titan's atmosphere is 4x as dense as Earth's (probably due to its low temperatures). Combine that with its low gravity (1/7th Earth's), and you'll find that helicopters can be quite effective, so long as the winds aren't too strong.
--Joe--
Program Intellivision!
...into Saturn or Jupiter?
Putting a balloon with a good video camera on it in a gas giant's atmosphere would be the coolest thing since Viking.
I think NASA's first priority should be getting people interested in space, which means a steady stream of cool pictures of alien worlds. Forget about getting maximum scientific bang for the buck, if they can raise interest to the point it was when they started the Apollo project, they'll have lots of money to do science.
All I can say about this project is that they'd better send home some good pictures, instead of just using the images for the on-board computer.
...the bacteria that live in rocks in the Antarctic?
We really don't know all that much about the extremely hostile environment organisms, because they're hard to culture. When we rub something on agar and don't get a culture, we tend to assume nothing's there (obviously, I'm oversimplifying, but our test methods generally look for stuff that likes "good" conditions).
You make good points, but I still wouldn't be too surprised if there are a few really tough spores floating around each cubic meter or air that will survive for a thousand years in practically any conditions and are just waiting for properly miserable conditions, like you describe, to wake up.
1) A reactor will not give you a nuclear explosion under virtually any conditions.
2) Titan is big. Radius of 2575km (earth is approx 6370km). 5kg of plutonium sitting in one place would hardly be noticed.
3)You both should look at other posts before repeating stuff that has already been commented upon (look at comment #37 and the replies)
Slashdot - the place where you can look like a genius by restating the obvious
metric/imperial unit confusion
Can you imaging if some extraterrestrials sent a probe to earth, and it was a fucking helecopter? I mean, we'd be expecting antigravity drives and warp engines and all that stuff. It'd be a major disappointment. Just imagine if there was intelligent life there - we'd be the joke of the universe...
Help save the critically endangered Blue Iguana
But I doubt 5-6 code audits per line applies in the cheaper/faster/better NASA of today.
It seems that the main argument for the helicopter is speed. Now this is probably nuts, but given the decades between our likely launches to Titan, couldn't we deploy snakebots on the surface and wait patiently for the data to trickle in?
Perhaps we could have an orbiting surveyor that drops a bot when it sees something interesting, or when the data from a previous drop indicate to the mission scientists back on Earth what an interesting site might look like.
If made small enough, the power consumption should be low enough to allow years of power or even local regeneration/refueling.
I know what you're going to say: Titan is too big to explore with snakes. But given the smaller size, complexity, and power of the snakes, you could have hundreds of them in the same weight/cost as one helicopter.
I see no reason why a once-a-decade mission can't take a decade to complete its data-gathering.
"You can't get something for nothing." - my grandfather, on the stock market and Reaganomics.
...and really, if something that tough does live on Earth, it's probably already been thrown all around the solar system by volcanoes and such.
You're right, I can't imagine this being a concern.
potentatial: being like, or having the qualities of, a potentate (a powerful person, like a king or emperor)
Titan has mighty, mighty organic make-up. The beautiful Titanian women who wear it are treated with great respect and deference, but even they are but slaves to the gunk on their face.
Too true. At a fraction of the cost of most national welfare or medical programs, we find out more about how the universe works, and get awesome technological spin-offs. And if eye-candy can help provide that, all the better. Scientists traditionally are weak on promoting the benefits of technology, but we should be able to provide lowest-common-denominator type material for the masses.
As for the benefits, let's see: satellites (communication, weather forecasting, environmental work, GPS), and quartz watches to name a few. For an economists persepctive, try a 43% rate of return on investments in Nasa up to 1975 (not sure if they mean cumulative, annual, or compounded annual. At 43%, who really cares).
It would be nice to generate excitement in science, and help drive more young people into a science-based career (as well as having more science jobs out there). Exploring the limits of our solar system and reaching into space are a great way of doing this.
Darren
Slashdot - the place where you can look like a genius by restating the obvious
Look at the F-16 and the fly-by-wire system...
Let's not forget that befor the *official* "Falcon" nickname, test pilotes refered to it as "lawn-dart" (100% true).
Systems based on interia and gyroscopes have been in use on commercial aircraft from the very beginning.
True, yet their calibration must be done in an extremly precise way. Their has been numerous reports of inertial aviation computer going of course, just because some ground crew were refulling the plane when the system was calibrated. That is also why inertail navigation is constantly rechecked against onboard star mapers.
My point beeing that, trying to calibrate such a thing on earth is already quite a problem, now just try and do the same on a planet we know very little about, a couple of million of miles away.
I'm really the first to say that we should put more funding into space exploration and Fundamental research. I'm sure, we can all imagine the 'commercial' spinoffs making an AI that can fly a chopper on some planet that's got a LAG of over an hour.
But I think that there is one thing that was not mentioned in the article, and that is the amount (or actually the lack) of data we have on Titan.
Look at the huge amount of trial and error testing that had to be done to get to valid helicopter design here no earth, where we can measure almost every variable that compose the complex notion of flying a rotating wing design. Even the prototype helicopter from Carnegie Mellon, uses technology that has been designed from, and for earth specs. BTW if you want to check out Carnegie Mellon's helicopter project, here is a link
If you want to have a look at a complex AI piloting an acutal spaceship, you can go and checkout the DeepSpace 1 prob. Which among other things is a real test bed for a lot of NASA's technology.
Murphy(c).
Ever read Larry Niven? Flatlander it is.
Darren
Slashdot - the place where you can look like a genius by restating the obvious
Temperature is also an issue - in the range I just mentioned, temperature ranged from -230F at the top to 306F at the bottom.
Pressure is also an issue for balloons - and the pressure ranged from .5 bar at the top, to 21 bar at the bottom. That's 21 times Earth atmospheric pressure.
Not being a balloonist, I don't know if you can construct a balloon that would be functional in these circumstances, but the environment would certainly be extreme.
--
Peter
I think wind wouldn't really matter, since without ground features to mess it up, you don't get a lot of gusting and shearing.
;) )
I wouldn't expect a balloon to plumb the depths of Jupiter, floating around up in the sunlight is the way to do it.
(actually, pressure on Jupiter would range from 0 bar at the top to hydrogen-is-a-metal at the bottom
People who make interplanetary probes are bright enough to deal with trivial details like these.
Why not send some sort of flying saucer? I mean, we've always expected "Extraterestials" to come down to us in flying saucers, green skin, bug eyes and all... I propose we send a Flying Saucer to Titan, just to stick it to those lowly aliens and say "Ha! We beat you to it!, now where's your leader?"
And put some plush green alien dolls in there (flying saucer) while you're at it.
moox. for a new generation.
Everybody grab your vug-stick and start whacking!
I think some people have underestimated the state of the art in autonomous heli's today. The article mentioned CMU's autonomous helicopter. There are several other schools with experience in this area, such as MIT (Draper Lab), Stanford, Georgia Tech, etc. I work on the autonomous heli project (http://www-robotics.usc.edu/~avatar) at USC. I'll try to give a summary of capabilities that our current and past heli's have had. These heli's are of the small RC variety. Our current model weighs about 25 kg. It can fly autonomously at low speeds (under 5 m/s). It can do point to point navigation using GPS. It can follow a moving object on the ground, such as a human or ground robot. We've had take-off and landing capabilities on previous heli's and expect to demonstrate the same on this heli sometime in the next two weeks. We've done all this on processors no more powerful than a 486, and on small research grants. One thing that CMU's heli can do that ours can't is to follow an arbitrary quintic spline trajectory in space. There are still flight profiles that have yet to be demonstrated AFAIK. These include inverted and fast forward flight. The latter is difficult because the dynamics of the system change at high speed, and you need a lot of space, more than we have on our small urban campus. I'm just trying to make the point that a reasonable research effort by NASA, building on existing technology, can produce a very capable vehicle for exploring planetary bodies.
Helicopters in space is not really anything new.
A company called Rotary Rocket Company (http://www.rotaryrocket.com) is already working on a privately funded rocket that lands using rotating helicopter-like blades that are powered by rocket engines in the tips of the blades. On the site, you can see some footage from the test flights. So far, I don't think they have done any rocket-engine powered flights - just basic translational flights with the blade system. Personally I'm not so sure they will ever make it to space, but it's still interesting.. They have some original ideas there..
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Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
To partly answer your challenge, there are a few organisms on earth that can survive without water: the only one I can think of offhand is a type of desert mouse (can't quite recall the name at the moment).
It survives primarily off of the H2O it gets from cellular respiration. Of course, this would require a good supply of oxygen, but it does get one thinking.
In the interim we have managed to scrape together enough Pu-238 to meet NASA's needs by using the remaining stock from the cold war days and by purchasing it from Russia. Improvements in the efficiency of the RTG's have reduced the requirements for Pu-238. The recent Casini mission, however, required nearly 35 kg.
There are proposals on the table to produce Pu-238 in Department of Energy research and test reactors. Analysis has shown that they can produce up to 5 kg per year which NASA states is sufficient for future mission. Another alternative that is currently being considered it the restart of the Fast Flux Test Facility (FFTF) for isotope production, including Pu-238. DOE is expected to make a decision on FFTF in the near future. It's also possible to produce Pu-238 in commercial power reactors, but there is little support for this.
I sincerely hope that problems in procuring Pu-238 do not impact future NASA missions.
A helicopter ? Come on. If you need a hopper -- which is the mission this guy is trying to come up with -- you design a rocket system that uses in situ propellant generation.
It's fairly simple: design a hyrbid rocket to use oxygen as the oxidizer (seems funny, but that's rarely the oxidizer in rockets). Design a drilling system to grab you a core sample of ice.
Melt and electrolyze the water; dump the hydrogen in a tank to give you partial fuel for a fuel cell, and divert part of the oxygen to the rocket system, the rest to the rocket system. Carry fuel grains on-board.
Using in situ propellants cuts your launch weight, landing weight, and ergo cost by a lot. Sure, there's some increase in complexity to design an in situ system, but it sure would be a remotely-controlled, fold-out helicopter . . .
All this, and there are on-the-board designs for Mars.
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-- Geof F. Morris
We have to wait till 2003 for them to lose this one?
--- Always remember. 99.36% of all statistics are inaccurate.
Many individuals and some groups see things differently (look at the other replies above, or check out the Mars Society). They'd spend their own money to go, if they could get access. But the governmental-sponsored monopolies lock out the competition to the established players.
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Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
"Oh shit! Remember those probes we sent to Y3325.3? Well it turns out our power source leaked and resulted in the most horrible mutations, gastly stuff... I say we send a Harry Truman android down there and don't mention this to anyone."
CowboyNeal for president!
"Hit any user to continue."
To start with, this article wasn't about sending people to another planet.
Second, the reason that NASA is always begging for funds is because government doesn't want to invest money in something that won't give them a return immediately. Space has a lot to offer, but it won't present you with instant cash. On the other hand, government loves technology projects because it usually means a quick payoff.
You repeatedly say that "no one cares" about space. Yet there are plenty of people that care or NASA wouldn't exist at all. They are there for a reason, and although the government has lost its interest ("What, you can't give us a 4x return on our investment?!? But I don't want to wait") there are still many people that want to see space explored and get humanity off of this rock. I would hate to see one little mistake cause our entire planet to cease to exist and we are gone. Then humanity really would have amounted to the nothing we look like we are.
Until private industry gains an interest in space (again, back to the profit issue) we probably won't see any major advances. It's really too bad. Space is just full of scientific answers if we care to go looking for them. Why ignore them?
Bite my yammer.
Nice concept. What if it gets there and all you get is an unchanging yellow blur in front of the camera? Think of the view through your windshield driving in think fog. Or in heavy snow.
However... I suppose that we know enough about the chemical composition of the gas giant atmospheres to determine some wavelengths of electomagnetic radiation for which most of the fog would be transparent. If the camera was sensitive to those frequencies, maybe there would be something to see.
But I bet it would just be thick, pea-soup fog. And probably dark, more than a few KM down. Are there any planetary scientists reading that could provide some facts?
I like the idea of a balloon floating around Jupiter with instruments. It sounds like a pretty fool-proof probe design.
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
"HTML needs a rant tag" - Alan Cox
I just don't know if I'm satisfied by a simple video image. I've studied the pictures of Mars, even the 3d QTVR's, and there's just something wierd about the colors - I think it has to do with the dust, coloring all the low-angle light red, and the high-angle light comes down more bluish. I just can't get a feel for what it really "looks like" to be standing on Mars. Mabye it's all computer-generated anyway ;-).
if it ain't broke, then fix it 'till it is!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Now, I really appreciate dreamers. I really do. But this just - no way. Sorry.
Helicopters are about the most complex, tricky aircraft there are, period. But we have to design one to fly in an environment we can't even simulate? We can't do a test-flight. We can't be sure how the materials will react in that environment. Then there's the eight-year space journey, the temperature extremes, radiation, micrometeorites - all the lubricants and hydraulics will remain intact, ready to function? Then there are all the issues with Jupiter's radiation belts, rings, tidal forces, - you get this thing there, assume every working part of the vehicle still functions within operable parameters, then you fire up the AI system to pilot it, we don't even know the atmospheric conditions at the surface - whether there will be visibilty, high winds, whether enough of a flat area exists ANYWHERE for the thing to land without clipping the rotors - then there are the inevitable programming glitches, etc.
I just don't believe that this is within mankind's present technical capabilities. We need at least one, maybe several landers there first, so we know what the conditions are really like. This will take several decades, so maybe by then, we'll have the materials science and computer science issues worked out - but I don't see Year 2000 humanity as being advanced enough to try this yet. Maybe by then, someone will have discovered some kind of anti-gravity device or technology that would take much of the risk and complexity out of this venture. I think hoping for that is more realistic. And that's not very.
if it ain't broke, then fix it 'till it is!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
They should. Even if we manage to properly manage the resources we have on this planet, without a natural predator or some other natural means of trimming our population, we'll eventually outgrow it. I am not advocating ZPG-style politics at all, but once we mature as sentient beings enough to properly manage what we've got here, we will need to face the sobering thought of leaving home eventually.
We should never 'learn' to be satisfied with things the way they are. We should never 'learn' to be fat and happy -- and I believe that, biologically, we can't. The same processes that started life continue to work as we evolve, the sooner we realize to operate 'within' the system which bore us, and not 'on top' of it, the more we will grow, eventually to face some of the really, really big questions.
Regards,
John
Falling You - beautiful
...check for desert mice before sending off any space missions!
The issue is not just removing viable life forms.
The issue is removing any TRACE that viable life forms have ever TOUCHED that probe. Proteans, Complex amino acids, earthly hydrocarbons, viruses, DNA. We must remove as much of that as possible, all of it if we can (not likely) so that there is as little chance to contaminate our findings as possible.
We're not talking about creating growing cultures of earth bacteria on Titan. We're looking for any existence of life, however fragmentary, and the littlest spec of earthly organisms will essentially destroy that aspect of the mission.
Raven
And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor
"I will trust Google to 'do no evil' until the founders no longer run it." Hello Alphabet.