IIRC they used a printer to print out the datagrams on one end and a sanner with ocr software to reconstruct them on the other. bandwith was a bit low and latency even worse.
Thats right some nuts actually did implement it.
I'm pretty shure slashdot ran an article on it at one point, and you could probably find it through google.
I'm getting a mix of ads here myself, what few I see not being a tv watcher anymore. But the simple truth is that your most likely seeing adds in your area that are targeted at what is percieved the key issues and ideas for voters in your area. The add campaings are usually targeted on an area by area basis and can look like two totaly different sets of campains. I had occasion to travel to the left coast durring an election year everything in the adds there seemed 90 degrees out of phase whith what I'd seen here in the middle of the country. Even the basic personalities of same candidates seemed totaly askew(jekle and hyde even!). I kept expecting the theme from the twilight zone and Rod Serling.
Because the meaning of reserve in the case of when to send which troops/units where is not necessarily use last or use when the main is stretched thin.
Cannon fodder first, then send the more valuable main troops in when thier less likely to be taken out by lucky shot/huge numbers of the enemies cannon fodder.
Or alternatively don't waste main line units on garrison/cleanup/etc. duty.
Thats a pretty quick/simple explanation, but hopefully gives you the general idea of it.
"We (Average Joes) don't have the millions of dollars the Broadcast Fuckers have"
Actually WE do, collectivly that is, elswise they wouldn't eigther and thats where your suggestions of boycot style activity come in:)
Ehh.. social security is a pyramid scam. and it's very likely going to eighter go bust or have our taxes raised about 80% of gross and then go bust when the economy goes away or we revolt.
Where space exploration has so far always been an economic plus, not all directly, but it has been a major source of innovation and invention, tang, the dust-buster, Velcro, Kevlar, and on and on and on.
If you want the budget ballanced then maybe if we invested in a somthing with a fairly good typical return it could happen. You eigther increase income or decrease spending.
Whether to go to the Moon again or Mars is largely dependant on WHY.
But all other things being equal, the are very good reasons for choosing a over b. You pick which is a and which is b.
Mars for one has at least a little atmosphere and magnetic field (damn little, but compared to the moons none...) and enough gravity to reduce the negative effects of low gravity to much more manageable levels, also your more likely to build somthing self supporting there (if you've got H20 your almost halfway there).
On the other hand the moon is much closer, and the potential in-flight radiation risk is much less. And communications would be much easier. Rescue missions to moon would only be slightly more a pro moon stance due to the set up time to launch such mission.
I don't remember all the details, but the pro moon and pro mars people were seriously debating this a few years ago (late 80's-early 90's?). I do recall both sides had so many good arguments it was no where near a clear issue.
Way I see it the Moon would be easier and cheaper, and quicker. But Mars would be so much more rewarding in just what we would have to come up with to make the trip.
Personally I say do both, considering even modest estimates show a far better economic return than gam^h^h^h the stock market or many other investments.
How is pointing out that the AIW also supports macrovision off topic on a discussion about nvidia adding support for it in thier drivers? Espcially when alot of people are talking about switching to ATI products to get away and could be unpleasantly suprised thereby? You have to be a pretty hard core 'topic purist' or a rabid ATI fan to mod off-topic (or blindly modding based subject line which I should have changed from an re:GNA somthing or rather the first time). That there are two such.....
BTW I use a radeon AIW-9600 myself on my main system, it replaced an AIW-7000 that still works, so I'm certainly not slamming ATI eigther. (just pointing out they are not perfect eigther)
Oh well at least I got my first -1 post after my first +5.
Since you asked. The Downside is there are minimum costs per employee that accru on an on-going basis. The paperwork overhead, the increased number of potential workers comp claims and thus higher per-emplyee insurance, the increased odds of getting a total idiot because you couldn't be selective enough, and so on. 10 40 hour a week employee's will cost you less than 20 20 hour employees, and this cost becomes MORE significant as you go lower in payscale (up to a point, that point being the point at which a companie provides benifits such as paid vacation and insurance, etc.)
The AIW Radeon 9600 also. I upgraded to the 9600 from the 7k version and it still doese the whole 'scramble cable channel' bit with Marcovisioned tapes. I'd really like to find some way to fix that.
"To bring it slightly back on topic: If you want easy TV and DVD support in one box, use an ATI AIW card under Windows."
Except that the AIW cards also support macrovision. at least on the tv-in side. I've got a tv and a vcr hooked up to mine, but about 1/2 -2/3 of my videos on tape would look like a scrambled cable channel. I did some digging (on ATI's website, under troubleshooting iirc) and found out that it was deliberate, thier cards 'honour macrovision encoding'. I assume thier tv-wonder also does this. This and the stunt the pulled about having to pay $15 dollars to get a cd sent to you if you wanted to upgrade the drivers past a certain point, (or not having dvd playback functionality, or having to mix and match drivers for sub-components) really pissed me off for a while. they've fixed that last issue and the confusing mess of what drivers to download and in what order to install them, etc. though with thier latest series of driver.
So anyone know where I can get a filter of some sort to put between the vcr out and the AIW tv-in to fix the one remaining 'feature'? iirc a few places had hardware that would help clean up weak signals and such from old tapes that also killed the macrovision crap as a byproduct, but that was a 5-10 years ago.
You get 1/2 agreement from me, so doese he, sorta.
But seriously the reason we distrust our government is in part due to the fact we were settled by people who were not happy with the way things were in europe. Some were persecuted for various cultural reasons, some were criminals, you get the idea.
Well take a group of people who feel abused by society and government (whether right or wrong), but who still have enough wherwhithal get up and go settle a strange land rather than just stay and grow numb/complacent. Then have the far off governemt get even just a little bit abusive and they're going to react. If they wind up with a successfull revolution they are not likely to start out trusting thier new government. Add in a group of mostly intelligent leaders, familliar with history and human nature, and that distrust becomes both leagly codified and culturally popular to the extent that over 250 years later it's still a part of our cultural identity.
Of course any analogy is imperfect. But it shure sounds kinda like your making my point.
I wasn't comparing Gentoo to Linux distros in genereal though, I was comparing gentoo to an LSB compliant distro (which his software required). While the specifics of the differences are not the same, I feel they are of a simular magnitude. But the basic point was that Gentoo and a LSB compliant linux distro are two closely related, by still different, operating systems, and thus it's not entirely unreasonable for a program design to operate on one to fail on the other.
Though with the resources out there it is likely possible, though probably not easy, to change his install of Gentoo enough to get the pakage to work, where as the same is much less likely with windows.
Unfortunately this places you in the minority. Most people are willing to click five or 8 times on 'OK' than type in 3 or full commands, that they have to spell right, and be in the right directory to use, and hope all the paths are configured right, and hope the make scripts are all work right with thier distro and, hmmm maybee it is easier to to click four or even fourty times on "ok" or "next", especially since it's obvious what to do to most people. compare
$localbox.here> (or somesuch)
verses a clearly labbled icon that once they double click it TELLS them in simple english what to do next.
"So I take the dev kit cd that came with it and try to install it by following the directions included. No go. It wants an LSB distro and I use gentoo."
What I would like to know is did they falsly advertise it as working on your O.S. (or even by implication)?
Because if not I don't understand your complaint. you tried to install it on a different o.s. than it was designed for. Yes your o.s. uses the same kernel and many of the same utilities, but gentoo is not the same O.S. as the others. To give an anology, would you expect a new winxp program to run just fine under NT3.0? there is a chance it might, but would you be suprised if it didn't? Would you say it "it doesen't work" and blame the maker of the software?
Now mind you I'm aware a lot of software out there just advertises "works with Linux" or "works with Windows" without being sufficiently specefic and shure enough it doesn't fit your specific O.S. this is another BAD THING, but not entirely specific to linux based o.s.'s (Much more likely to be a problem).
Gah, spelling. anything else to justify the 'very little' pejoritive, not that I deny my spelling often sucks, or that my leagle knowledge is at best marginally above John q public, it just seemed a bit of a strong reaction to a sound-alike spelling error. Especially since you basically agreed with my statement. Though it's my understanding that the lien part is by implied by the consent for work in some states, and need not be specifically spelled out (usully is though).
I wouldn't give them 'ultimate credidibility' myself. But thier opions, especialy when thier biases are taken into account, should weigh fairly heavily. Because while the accademics have put alot of thought and reason, backed by education in critical thought and such, they often don't have the practical experience bussiness has with these issues. (and vice versa) Of course it's a bit more complicated than that as both sets of ideas exist within the framework and thus are affected thereby. (blinded of the forrest by the trees from time to time) Then of course there is the difficulty of shifting to a better paradigm whith a minimum of chaos and other troubles.
I AM NOT A LAWYER, but I've done just enough study to be really dangerous:) (A little knowledge and all that).
In the first case it's breach of contract, not theft at all. The contract was your agreement to pay $$$ for work done, the mechanic did the work so you owe the $$$. I don't know how it is outside of Missouri let alone the US (though I suspect most states are simular), but there exists laws on the books which result in the mechanic being able to put a lean on your car in this case. Pay up or he gets to repo the car and sell it to cover the bill plus the costs of having to grab and sell your car.
The second cas is more problematic. In that case there are likely to be ordnance governing use of civic electricity. There is also the real cost of wear and tear on the system that generates that electricy, including the slow degradation of the solar sells, the transmission lines, even the effect (very very little admitedly) of the added heat to environment from line losses, etc..
I actually didn't goto to many WWIV boards, mostly Color64 and a local system called MTABBS (Mikes totaly awsome bulliten board system) that ran on trs-80's. it was system written by Mike while he was getting his ms in comp sci at Rolla (an engineering, comp sci colledge in southern central Missouri). there were only 4 or 5 boards that ran MTABBS, but those had the best discussions IMHO. I used a c64 back then and 4800 was the fastest modem you could use with it (c64's couldn't keep up with anything faster!) I even co-ran a color64 board for a month or so. Sigh.. much as I like the internet, somthing was lost when the bbs's died.
Yep that's right. The computer that helped the loonies in thier revolution in Heinlein's novel was H.O.L.M.E.S MK VII (i think it was a MK VII).
So the main character, the one who discovered the colonies main computer had 'woke up' named him Mycroft, because he was Holmes, and definately smarter than Sherlock. Only problem is the computer was also trying to develop of sense of humor. Manie helped him by telling him which jokes were funny always, funny once, and not funny at all.
Definately a good read.
The not funny part is I've been using this nick for !20! years, course they were called handles back then, and you could only reach one system at a time then, had to hang up and dial another number on my 2400 baud modem (uphill both ways, in the snow too...). sheesh I'm starting to feel old now.
Yeah, very sad, he was a bit of a poineer.
I first ran into ERB in some old books my dad had when i was 7 or so, "A Fighting Man of Mars", Him EE Smith and Heinlein were probably my early favorites. (Even though ERB and EE Smith both died before I was born, sigh and Heinlien when I was 18). Heinlein is still the very top of my list though. (I got my nick from "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", been using it since 84)
A much better known of story by Burroghs is Tarzan, sad so few know who originaly wrote Tarzan.
Sorry to drift off topic, I'm rather fond the Barsoom series myself, even built my own 'martian chess' set and got a few people to play it when I was 10 or so.
If he had neigther the most he could have done is suggest they leave. a stop frisk is even more a 'search' as what the constituitional amendment mentions than insisting on ID. you need probable cause there as well.
Slashdot Mirror
IIRC they used a printer to print out the datagrams on one end and a sanner with ocr software to reconstruct them on the other. bandwith was a bit low and latency even worse.
Thats right some nuts actually did implement it.
I'm pretty shure slashdot ran an article on it at one point, and you could probably find it through google.
Mycroft
I'm getting a mix of ads here myself, what few I see not being a tv watcher anymore. But the simple truth is that your most likely seeing adds in your area that are targeted at what is percieved the key issues and ideas for voters in your area. The add campaings are usually targeted on an area by area basis and can look like two totaly different sets of campains. I had occasion to travel to the left coast durring an election year everything in the adds there seemed 90 degrees out of phase whith what I'd seen here in the middle of the country. Even the basic personalities of same candidates seemed totaly askew(jekle and hyde even!). I kept expecting the theme from the twilight zone and Rod Serling.
Mycroft
Because the meaning of reserve in the case of when to send which troops/units where is not necessarily use last or use when the main is stretched thin.
Cannon fodder first, then send the more valuable main troops in when thier less likely to be taken out by lucky shot/huge numbers of the enemies cannon fodder.
Or alternatively don't waste main line units on garrison/cleanup/etc. duty.
Thats a pretty quick/simple explanation, but hopefully gives you the general idea of it.
Mycroft.
"We (Average Joes) don't have the millions of dollars the Broadcast Fuckers have" :)
Actually WE do, collectivly that is, elswise they wouldn't eigther and thats where your suggestions of boycot style activity come in
Mycroft
Ehh.. social security is a pyramid scam. and it's very likely going to eighter go bust or have our taxes raised about 80% of gross and then go bust when the economy goes away or we revolt.
Where space exploration has so far always been an economic plus, not all directly, but it has been a major source of innovation and invention, tang, the dust-buster, Velcro, Kevlar, and on and on and on.
If you want the budget ballanced then maybe if we invested in a somthing with a fairly good typical return it could happen. You eigther increase income or decrease spending.
Mycroft
Whether to go to the Moon again or Mars is largely dependant on WHY.
But all other things being equal, the are very good reasons for choosing a over b. You pick which is a and which is b.
Mars for one has at least a little atmosphere and magnetic field (damn little, but compared to the moons none...) and enough gravity to reduce the negative effects of low gravity to much more manageable levels, also your more likely to build somthing self supporting there (if you've got H20 your almost halfway there).
On the other hand the moon is much closer, and the potential in-flight radiation risk is much less. And communications would be much easier. Rescue missions to moon would only be slightly more a pro moon stance due to the set up time to launch such mission.
I don't remember all the details, but the pro moon and pro mars people were seriously debating this a few years ago (late 80's-early 90's?). I do recall both sides had so many good arguments it was no where near a clear issue.
Way I see it the Moon would be easier and cheaper, and quicker. But Mars would be so much more rewarding in just what we would have to come up with to make the trip.
Personally I say do both, considering even modest estimates show a far better economic return than gam^h^h^h the stock market or many other investments.
Mycroft
How is pointing out that the AIW also supports macrovision off topic on a discussion about nvidia adding support for it in thier drivers? Espcially when alot of people are talking about switching to ATI products to get away and could be unpleasantly suprised thereby? You have to be a pretty hard core 'topic purist' or a rabid ATI fan to mod off-topic (or blindly modding based subject line which I should have changed from an re:GNA somthing or rather the first time). That there are two such.....
BTW I use a radeon AIW-9600 myself on my main system, it replaced an AIW-7000 that still works, so I'm certainly not slamming ATI eigther. (just pointing out they are not perfect eigther)
Oh well at least I got my first -1 post after my first +5.
Mycroft.
Since you asked.
The Downside is there are minimum costs per employee that accru on an on-going basis. The paperwork overhead, the increased number of potential workers comp claims and thus higher per-emplyee insurance, the increased odds of getting a total idiot because you couldn't be selective enough, and so on. 10 40 hour a week employee's will cost you less than 20 20 hour employees, and this cost becomes MORE significant as you go lower in payscale (up to a point, that point being the point at which a companie provides benifits such as paid vacation and insurance, etc.)
Mycroft
The AIW Radeon 9600 also. I upgraded to the 9600 from the 7k version and it still doese the whole 'scramble cable channel' bit with Marcovisioned tapes. I'd really like to find some way to fix that.
Mycroft
"To bring it slightly back on topic: If you want easy TV and DVD support in one box, use an ATI AIW card under Windows."
Except that the AIW cards also support macrovision. at least on the tv-in side. I've got a tv and a vcr hooked up to mine, but about 1/2 -2/3 of my videos on tape would look like a scrambled cable channel. I did some digging (on ATI's website, under troubleshooting iirc) and found out that it was deliberate, thier cards 'honour macrovision encoding'. I assume thier tv-wonder also does this. This and the stunt the pulled about having to pay $15 dollars to get a cd sent to you if you wanted to upgrade the drivers past a certain point, (or not having dvd playback functionality, or having to mix and match drivers for sub-components) really pissed me off for a while. they've fixed that last issue and the confusing mess of what drivers to download and in what order to install them, etc. though with thier latest series of driver.
So anyone know where I can get a filter of some sort to put between the vcr out and the AIW tv-in to fix the one remaining 'feature'? iirc a few places had hardware that would help clean up weak signals and such from old tapes that also killed the macrovision crap as a byproduct, but that was a 5-10 years ago.
Mycroft
You get 1/2 agreement from me, so doese he, sorta.
But seriously the reason we distrust our government is in part due to the fact we were settled by people who were not happy with the way things were in europe. Some were persecuted for various cultural reasons, some were criminals, you get the idea.
Well take a group of people who feel abused by society and government (whether right or wrong), but who still have enough wherwhithal get up and go settle a strange land rather than just stay and grow numb/complacent. Then have the far off governemt get even just a little bit abusive and they're going to react. If they wind up with a successfull revolution they are not likely to start out trusting thier new government. Add in a group of mostly intelligent leaders, familliar with history and human nature, and that distrust becomes both leagly codified and culturally popular to the extent that over 250 years later it's still a part of our cultural identity.
Mycroft
Of course any analogy is imperfect. But it shure sounds kinda like your making my point.
I wasn't comparing Gentoo to Linux distros in genereal though, I was comparing gentoo to an LSB compliant distro (which his software required). While the specifics of the differences are not the same, I feel they are of a simular magnitude. But the basic point was that Gentoo and a LSB compliant linux distro are two closely related, by still different, operating systems, and thus it's not entirely unreasonable for a program design to operate on one to fail on the other.
Though with the resources out there it is likely possible, though probably not easy, to change his install of Gentoo enough to get the pakage to work, where as the same is much less likely with windows.
Mycroft
Unfortunately this places you in the minority. Most people are willing to click five or 8 times on 'OK' than type in 3 or full commands, that they have to spell right, and be in the right directory to use, and hope all the paths are configured right, and hope the make scripts are all work right with thier distro and, hmmm maybee it is easier to to click four or even fourty times on "ok" or "next", especially since it's obvious what to do to most people. compare
$localbox.here> (or somesuch)
verses a clearly labbled icon that once they double click it TELLS them in simple english what to do next.
no contest.
Mycroft.
"So I take the dev kit cd that came with it and try to install it by following the directions included. No go. It wants an LSB distro and I use gentoo."
What I would like to know is did they falsly advertise it as working on your O.S. (or even by implication)?
Because if not I don't understand your complaint. you tried to install it on a different o.s. than it was designed for. Yes your o.s. uses the same kernel and many of the same utilities, but gentoo is not the same O.S. as the others.
To give an anology, would you expect a new winxp program to run just fine under NT3.0? there is a chance it might, but would you be suprised if it didn't? Would you say it "it doesen't work" and blame the maker of the software?
Now mind you I'm aware a lot of software out there just advertises "works with Linux" or "works with Windows" without being sufficiently specefic and shure enough it doesn't fit your specific O.S. this is another BAD THING, but not entirely specific to linux based o.s.'s (Much more likely to be a problem).
Mycroft
The last two paragraphs. +2 insightfull, but I haven't any modpoints today.
"I/we can't win!"
"No, not with an attidute like that you can't"
"I don't believe it!"
"THAT is why you failed"
think about it.
Mycroft
Gah, spelling. anything else to justify the 'very little' pejoritive, not that I deny my spelling often sucks, or that my leagle knowledge is at best marginally above John q public, it just seemed a bit of a strong reaction to a sound-alike spelling error. Especially since you basically agreed with my statement. Though it's my understanding that the lien part is by implied by the consent for work in some states, and need not be specifically spelled out (usully is though).
Mycroft
I wouldn't give them 'ultimate credidibility' myself. But thier opions, especialy when thier biases are taken into account, should weigh fairly heavily. Because while the accademics have put alot of thought and reason, backed by education in critical thought and such, they often don't have the practical experience bussiness has with these issues. (and vice versa) Of course it's a bit more complicated than that as both sets of ideas exist within the framework and thus are affected thereby. (blinded of the forrest by the trees from time to time)
Then of course there is the difficulty of shifting to a better paradigm whith a minimum of chaos and other troubles.
Mycroft
I AM NOT A LAWYER, but I've done just enough study to be really dangerous :) (A little knowledge and all that).
In the first case it's breach of contract, not theft at all. The contract was your agreement to pay $$$ for work done, the mechanic did the work so you owe the $$$. I don't know how it is outside of Missouri let alone the US (though I suspect most states are simular), but there exists laws on the books which result in the mechanic being able to put a lean on your car in this case. Pay up or he gets to repo the car and sell it to cover the bill plus the costs of having to grab and sell your car.
The second cas is more problematic. In that case there are likely to be ordnance governing use of civic electricity. There is also the real cost of wear and tear on the system that generates that electricy, including the slow degradation of the solar sells, the transmission lines, even the effect (very very little admitedly) of the added heat to environment from line losses, etc..
Mycroft
I actually didn't goto to many WWIV boards, mostly Color64 and a local system called MTABBS (Mikes totaly awsome bulliten board system) that ran on trs-80's. it was system written by Mike while he was getting his ms in comp sci at Rolla (an engineering, comp sci colledge in southern central Missouri). there were only 4 or 5 boards that ran MTABBS, but those had the best discussions IMHO. I used a c64 back then and 4800 was the fastest modem you could use with it (c64's couldn't keep up with anything faster!) I even co-ran a color64 board for a month or so. Sigh.. much as I like the internet, somthing was lost when the bbs's died.
Mycroft
Yep that's right. The computer that helped the loonies in thier revolution in Heinlein's novel was H.O.L.M.E.S MK VII (i think it was a MK VII).
So the main character, the one who discovered the colonies main computer had 'woke up' named him Mycroft, because he was Holmes, and definately smarter than Sherlock. Only problem is the computer was also trying to develop of sense of humor. Manie helped him by telling him which jokes were funny always, funny once, and not funny at all.
Definately a good read.
Mycroft.
:)
The not funny part is I've been using this nick for !20! years, course they were called handles back then, and you could only reach one system at a time then, had to hang up and dial another number on my 2400 baud modem (uphill both ways, in the snow too...). sheesh I'm starting to feel old now.
Mycroft
Yeah, very sad, he was a bit of a poineer.
I first ran into ERB in some old books my dad had when i was 7 or so, "A Fighting Man of Mars", Him EE Smith and Heinlein were probably my early favorites. (Even though ERB and EE Smith both died before I was born, sigh and Heinlien when I was 18). Heinlein is still the very top of my list though. (I got my nick from "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", been using it since 84)
Mycroft
A much better known of story by Burroghs is Tarzan, sad so few know who originaly wrote Tarzan.
Sorry to drift off topic, I'm rather fond the Barsoom series myself, even built my own 'martian chess' set and got a few people to play it when I was 10 or so.
Mycroft
Well unless the ustpo is slashdotted it seems your link doesn't work. is there a typo?
here is what I get following that url (using cut and past):
Error #1005
Error!
(a solid line here which slashdot's code thinks is lame)
BRS was unable to process your request. A diagnostic message was mailed to the appropriate personel.
--
Mycroft
wha huh??????
If he had neigther the most he could have done is suggest they leave. a stop frisk is even more a 'search' as what the constituitional amendment mentions than insisting on ID. you need probable cause there as well.
Mycroft