1. It's a joke. (Look at the calendar. Don't believe anything you read on slashdot in the next 24 hours).
2. You obviously know not of what you speak. RPMs are more complicated than Gentoo ebuilds or debian debs.
With Gentoo you type: # emerge enlightenment
You don't have to know anything about C, C++, Python or even shell scripting. All you have to know is your architecture and the optimizations you want (and the detailed docs are very newbie friendly).
with debian type: # apt-get install enlightenment
Either distro will then install E, X, and all required libs/programs.
Both distros have centralized package repositories (free of charge) that contain everything I've ever needed, tested for full compatibility.
With rpm, you find the package, download it, type the rpm command, get an error about libWhatever.X.Y.Z.so being required, spend hours figuring out what package has libWhatever.X.Y.Z.so, go to bed three hours late, because you were looking for the package,..., get home from work exhausted the next day, look for that package, find a few rpms compiled for a different distro, architecture, gcc version, or rpm version, scream in disgust, and then switch to Debian or Gentoo.
First of all, there are more OSs in the world that just Linux and Windows.
Second of all, most software development jobs (at least the ones with good payrates, and who cares about the crappy ones?) are on a *ix platform.
95% of all desktops might run Windows, but most development is designing/enhancing/supporting a business process on a big box, where Unix is supreme and mainframes still have a bigger chunk than Windows.
My masters will be from the Graduate College at Colorado State University.
X College would most likely be undergrad only, while X University would have post grad programs, but a University contains many Colleges (Arts & Sciences, Engineering, Business, Graduate, and Honors are the ones I can think of).
That's uncertain, but probably not. It's too bloated and slow to keep up. And any attack it launched would probably backfire.
What is certain is the wife of my OS's creator could beat up the wife of your OS's creator.
You can cause bluescreens in any number of ways in XP.
Excellent point. I couldn't agree more. Of course all of them are based on a kernel problem. I find it sad that you defend your OS of chioce with a comment about how easily it crashes...
I notice you're avoiding being specific about how NT can crash without the kernel. Probably because you know as well as I do that they're all kernel related.
I can also cause Linux to go into a kernel panic if I want to.
Only by insmod'ing a buggy module. Or through a bad configuration (a human error).
Dev kernels don't count. They're expected to be buggy. Some are even as bad as MS release-level software.:p
I also never said it's "what must be happening". I hypothesized. Maybe you should bookmark dictionary.com for future reference.
3rd party drivers, no. That would be the driver.
But my notebook only had MS drivers. So it was an MS bug.
What else would have access to kernel space to bring down the entire OS? Nothing I know of, and you have yet to tell me anything that can.
Regardless though, if the kernel can be brought down by anything, it's a flaw.
If it's a 3rd party driver, then it's the admin's fault for using a dangerous driver.
Do you know anything about software development? Or how OSs work?
If the kernel crashes it is a kernel bug. PERIOD!
If the kernel processes a call from an app that causes the kernel to crash, the kernel crashed itself. A perfectly written kernel would not do that.
For an analogy: If somebody handed me a gun, and said it was unloaded and the safety was on. Then I put it to my head and pulled the trigger. It would be my foolishness that killed me, for not checking.
Cygwin distributes a version of XFree86 specifically for Cygwin. They call it Cygwin/XFree86. Sorry for omitting the slash.
It can cause a blue screen, I've done it. All user apps make kernel requests. If the kernel is poorly written, it will crash when an app calls a buggy function.
I don't believe you. I did the search and found a few. The bug I discovered wasn't worth reporting. I simply ditched the winXP and ran X on top of a better OS.
Oh...and about the 'especially on NT-derived systems' comment: NT is the only MS kernel that can survive malignant programs. Any app on Win9x/Me/3.x can write to any segment of memory and hose the box. With NT's protected kernel, only the kernel can kill itself.
I don't have a windows debugger. But I could trace it through the source if I needed to. Given the sheer size of XP source, it would be a monumental task, but well within my ability.
But if you read the statement in context, you'll see I was saying why I had to hypothesize over the cause, rather than investigate it.
And yes EVERY time the kernel crashes it is an MS problem.
If the bug is in the kernel, it's an MS implementation problem.
If the bug is elsewhere, but the kernel allows an application to access kernel memory, then it's an MS design problem.
If a badly written app can bring down an OS, then the OS has a serious problem.
If you knew how to read, you'd know I didn't say X blue screened, I said it caused winXP to blue screen, and I'm not the only who has replied to this thread with such an event.
Would you prefer I call it a segfault? Buffer overrun? Kernel panic?
If guess == FUD, then I guess your guess about FUD, must be FUD as well.
Here's the logic, try to follow along:
1) I booted WinXP, started XFree86, started an xterm, then closed the xterm.
2) The screen immediately turned bright blue and listed the contents of the registers and told me which dll had segfaulted.
3) '1)' always led to '2)'.
4) The xterm runs as a user-level process, but its rendering is controlled by the kernel.
5) WinXP's kernel runs in protected memory, so the only process that could corrupt that memory is the kernel.
6) The only link between '4)' and '5)' is the kernel.
7) Therefore I concluded it was the rendering code in the kernel.
So if you know so much, enlighten me on how doing anything in XFree86 can cause a blue screen.
The kernel level rendering was a guess on my part, based on the fact that I closed a window and it happened, every time, and that the kernel does contain rendering code that other OSs leave in user space. As I have no access to winXP source, I couldn't investigate.
I don't think I got my money's worth there either, at the time they were a microsoft heavy school.
My point was that the rendering of a window on the screen should not run at kernel level.
It was over a year ago, and I've since ditched winXP from that computer, so I don't remember how I did it exactly. But it was consistent at the time.
It might not be a true grammar error, but it's considered bad speech to use the same modifier twice as in "really really".
The correct way to show stronger emphasis is a stronger word such as "exceptionally".
Butt its amazing how many people they're our who don't no how to use the write homophone.
I also used the wrong spelling of "it's", "there", "are", "know", and "right", all homophones, well maybe not our/are, depending on dialect.
It was sarcasm.
I didn't say Debian was faster than RedHat (but I did optimize my kernel for my Athlon).
I said how it compares to a Win2k boot.
Learn to read before calling people "Lame-O"s.
Of course if your RedHat install does the Kudzu hardware search on every boot (the last RH I had did), Debian might be faster.
No the 'zealot' comment was a direct reply to the parent, which stated that anyone who says XP can crash is a Linux zealot (which by his definition would include you, I guess).
These are my XP crash experiences:
Compaq 2700T Notebook w/ winXP preinstalled, no driver changes or patches. I added Cygwin XFree86. When closing a window inside of XFree, I could get a blue screen every time. It was a rendering bug in XFree86, but because it ran at kernel level, it spread.
My piecemeal gaming box w/winXP, and the latest certified drivers.
When exiting Medievel: Total War, while playing with the EAX option (on an EAX SB Live), it would freeze. No key combination would fix it.
When playing ghost recon, it would lock up sometimes, and again, no key combination would regain control.
The M:TW could have been a bad driver. The GR, I don't know.
Define 'crash'. Do you mean apps crash? If so, yeah Linux systems suffer from crashes almost as much as windows (in my anecdotal experience). But I've never seen a Linux kernel crash (except when I boot a badly configured kernel, but that's my fault not Linus' or Alan's).
No app should be able to bring down the kernel. Ever.
No I'm a professional Software Enginner with a BSE in Computer Engineering pursuing an MS in Computer Science who learned it in a graduate level Windows Programming class from a guy with a PhD. Unfortunately, I tossed the book years ago, but if you care, look it up on google.
And an AC trashing RedHat with no evidence has credibility?
My debian boxes (500MHz Celeron and 2000+ Athlon and 1133MHz PIII) boot in less than a minute.
My Win2000 box (the Athlon in dual-boot) has three wait screens: the text mode one where the progress meter fills at the bottom, a gui wait screen with a looping progress graphic. Then after I log in, it takes half a minute before I have the icons, start menu, etc. usable.
The debian boxes are usable in a few seconds.
If you say it doesn't crash you've just proven you're a zealot arguing in a fact vacuum too.
XP does crash. I've done it before. Cygwin XFree86 has some bugs that cause blue screens consistently.
Medieval: Total War and Ghost Recon have bugs that cause blue screens.
The WinNT kernel and its derivatives contain all the code to draw buttons, scrollbars, and other gui widgets (That's why the kernel is 20-30MB). Any sort of oops in the GUI code is an oops at kernel level, which means it can trash any memory and cause a crash.
It's not an issue of conjugation. "Loose" is a completely different word. They're not even homophones.
Butt its amazing how many people they're our who don't no how to use the write homophone.:)
Seriously though, it's not just computer geeks. Most "educated" people in the US don't have adult level grammar skills. My 10th grade English teacher frequently told me that I did "real real good" on tests. (Three words, four grammatical errors, that has to be a record).
Slashdot Mirror
1. It's a joke. (Look at the calendar. Don't believe anything you read on slashdot in the next 24 hours).
..., get home from work exhausted the next day, look for that package, find a few rpms compiled for a different distro, architecture, gcc version, or rpm version, scream in disgust, and then switch to Debian or Gentoo.
2. You obviously know not of what you speak. RPMs are more complicated than Gentoo ebuilds or debian debs.
With Gentoo you type:
# emerge enlightenment
You don't have to know anything about C, C++, Python or even shell scripting. All you have to know is your architecture and the optimizations you want (and the detailed docs are very newbie friendly).
with debian type:
# apt-get install enlightenment
Either distro will then install E, X, and all required libs/programs.
Both distros have centralized package repositories (free of charge) that contain everything I've ever needed, tested for full compatibility.
With rpm, you find the package, download it, type the rpm command, get an error about libWhatever.X.Y.Z.so being required, spend hours figuring out what package has libWhatever.X.Y.Z.so, go to bed three hours late, because you were looking for the package,
Me too, I just switched from Debian to Gentoo over the last few weeks.
I was already forming the wording for my profanity filled forum post.
From the slashdot.org 'Post Comment' page:
(Use the Preview Button! Check those URLs! Don't forget the http://!)
First of all, there are more OSs in the world that just Linux and Windows.
Second of all, most software development jobs (at least the ones with good payrates, and who cares about the crappy ones?) are on a *ix platform.
95% of all desktops might run Windows, but most development is designing/enhancing/supporting a business process on a big box, where Unix is supreme and mainframes still have a bigger chunk than Windows.
My masters will be from the Graduate College at Colorado State University.
X College would most likely be undergrad only, while X University would have post grad programs, but a University contains many Colleges (Arts & Sciences, Engineering, Business, Graduate, and Honors are the ones I can think of).
That's uncertain, but probably not. It's too bloated and slow to keep up. And any attack it launched would probably backfire.
What is certain is the wife of my OS's creator could beat up the wife of your OS's creator.
You can cause bluescreens in any number of ways in XP.
:p
Excellent point. I couldn't agree more. Of course all of them are based on a kernel problem. I find it sad that you defend your OS of chioce with a comment about how easily it crashes...
I notice you're avoiding being specific about how NT can crash without the kernel. Probably because you know as well as I do that they're all kernel related.
I can also cause Linux to go into a kernel panic if I want to.
Only by insmod'ing a buggy module. Or through a bad configuration (a human error).
Dev kernels don't count. They're expected to be buggy. Some are even as bad as MS release-level software.
I also never said it's "what must be happening". I hypothesized. Maybe you should bookmark dictionary.com for future reference.
3rd party drivers, no. That would be the driver.
But my notebook only had MS drivers. So it was an MS bug.
What else would have access to kernel space to bring down the entire OS? Nothing I know of, and you have yet to tell me anything that can.
Regardless though, if the kernel can be brought down by anything, it's a flaw.
If it's a 3rd party driver, then it's the admin's fault for using a dangerous driver.
Do you know anything about software development? Or how OSs work?
If the kernel crashes it is a kernel bug. PERIOD!
If the kernel processes a call from an app that causes the kernel to crash, the kernel crashed itself. A perfectly written kernel would not do that.
For an analogy: If somebody handed me a gun, and said it was unloaded and the safety was on. Then I put it to my head and pulled the trigger. It would be my foolishness that killed me, for not checking.
Cygwin distributes a version of XFree86 specifically for Cygwin. They call it Cygwin/XFree86. Sorry for omitting the slash.
It can cause a blue screen, I've done it. All user apps make kernel requests. If the kernel is poorly written, it will crash when an app calls a buggy function.
I don't believe you. I did the search and found a few. The bug I discovered wasn't worth reporting. I simply ditched the winXP and ran X on top of a better OS.
Oh...and about the 'especially on NT-derived systems' comment: NT is the only MS kernel that can survive malignant programs. Any app on Win9x/Me/3.x can write to any segment of memory and hose the box. With NT's protected kernel, only the kernel can kill itself.
I don't have a windows debugger. But I could trace it through the source if I needed to. Given the sheer size of XP source, it would be a monumental task, but well within my ability.
But if you read the statement in context, you'll see I was saying why I had to hypothesize over the cause, rather than investigate it.
And yes EVERY time the kernel crashes it is an MS problem.
If the bug is in the kernel, it's an MS implementation problem.
If the bug is elsewhere, but the kernel allows an application to access kernel memory, then it's an MS design problem.
If a badly written app can bring down an OS, then the OS has a serious problem.
If you knew how to read, you'd know I didn't say X blue screened, I said it caused winXP to blue screen, and I'm not the only who has replied to this thread with such an event.
Would you prefer I call it a segfault? Buffer overrun? Kernel panic?
If guess == FUD, then I guess your guess about FUD, must be FUD as well.
Here's the logic, try to follow along:
1) I booted WinXP, started XFree86, started an xterm, then closed the xterm.
2) The screen immediately turned bright blue and listed the contents of the registers and told me which dll had segfaulted.
3) '1)' always led to '2)'.
4) The xterm runs as a user-level process, but its rendering is controlled by the kernel.
5) WinXP's kernel runs in protected memory, so the only process that could corrupt that memory is the kernel.
6) The only link between '4)' and '5)' is the kernel.
7) Therefore I concluded it was the rendering code in the kernel.
So if you know so much, enlighten me on how doing anything in XFree86 can cause a blue screen.
The kernel level rendering was a guess on my part, based on the fact that I closed a window and it happened, every time, and that the kernel does contain rendering code that other OSs leave in user space. As I have no access to winXP source, I couldn't investigate.
I don't think I got my money's worth there either, at the time they were a microsoft heavy school.
My point was that the rendering of a window on the screen should not run at kernel level.
It was over a year ago, and I've since ditched winXP from that computer, so I don't remember how I did it exactly. But it was consistent at the time.
I used the wrong homophone for several words (see my comment above). http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=55745&cid=5446 018
It might not be a true grammar error, but it's considered bad speech to use the same modifier twice as in "really really".
The correct way to show stronger emphasis is a stronger word such as "exceptionally".
I just 'upgraded' to Win2k. It hasn't crashed on me yet, and 95% of what I use it for is gaming.
I also get higher frame rates in GR than I did on XP.
Butt its amazing how many people they're our who don't no how to use the write homophone.
I also used the wrong spelling of "it's", "there", "are", "know", and "right", all homophones, well maybe not our/are, depending on dialect.
It was sarcasm.
I didn't say Debian was faster than RedHat (but I did optimize my kernel for my Athlon).
I said how it compares to a Win2k boot.
Learn to read before calling people "Lame-O"s.
Of course if your RedHat install does the Kudzu hardware search on every boot (the last RH I had did), Debian might be faster.
No the 'zealot' comment was a direct reply to the parent, which stated that anyone who says XP can crash is a Linux zealot (which by his definition would include you, I guess).
These are my XP crash experiences:
Compaq 2700T Notebook w/ winXP preinstalled, no driver changes or patches. I added Cygwin XFree86. When closing a window inside of XFree, I could get a blue screen every time. It was a rendering bug in XFree86, but because it ran at kernel level, it spread.
My piecemeal gaming box w/winXP, and the latest certified drivers.
When exiting Medievel: Total War, while playing with the EAX option (on an EAX SB Live), it would freeze. No key combination would fix it.
When playing ghost recon, it would lock up sometimes, and again, no key combination would regain control.
The M:TW could have been a bad driver. The GR, I don't know.
Define 'crash'. Do you mean apps crash? If so, yeah Linux systems suffer from crashes almost as much as windows (in my anecdotal experience). But I've never seen a Linux kernel crash (except when I boot a badly configured kernel, but that's my fault not Linus' or Alan's).
No app should be able to bring down the kernel. Ever.
No I'm a professional Software Enginner with a BSE in Computer Engineering pursuing an MS in Computer Science who learned it in a graduate level Windows Programming class from a guy with a PhD.
Unfortunately, I tossed the book years ago, but if you care, look it up on google.
And an AC trashing RedHat with no evidence has credibility?
My debian boxes (500MHz Celeron and 2000+ Athlon and 1133MHz PIII) boot in less than a minute.
My Win2000 box (the Athlon in dual-boot) has three wait screens: the text mode one where the progress meter fills at the bottom, a gui wait screen with a looping progress graphic. Then after I log in, it takes half a minute before I have the icons, start menu, etc. usable.
The debian boxes are usable in a few seconds.
If you say it doesn't crash you've just proven you're a zealot arguing in a fact vacuum too. XP does crash. I've done it before. Cygwin XFree86 has some bugs that cause blue screens consistently.
Medieval: Total War and Ghost Recon have bugs that cause blue screens.
The WinNT kernel and its derivatives contain all the code to draw buttons, scrollbars, and other gui widgets (That's why the kernel is 20-30MB). Any sort of oops in the GUI code is an oops at kernel level, which means it can trash any memory and cause a crash.
It's not an issue of conjugation. "Loose" is a completely different word. They're not even homophones.
:)
Butt its amazing how many people they're our who don't no how to use the write homophone.
Seriously though, it's not just computer geeks. Most "educated" people in the US don't have adult level grammar skills. My 10th grade English teacher frequently told me that I did "real real good" on tests. (Three words, four grammatical errors, that has to be a record).