That kinda depends on the complexity of the web application, and the nature of consistency you want with the page layout and all that.
A recent JavaReport article did quite a good bit of descriptions on how you can use a servlet as the front to the sets of services underneith, which can be servlets or jsp pages, depending on which is more appropriate.
I personally grow tired of digging through java to find html tags in order to change the page layout (or at least i did when i was building CGI in C/C++). Server-Side includes helped a bit, but when i got an embedded scripting form (w3-msql), I much preferred it. I suppose I'd be more interested in PHP for my solutions if i hadn't already latched onto JSP. I also prefer JSP for its portability. I can take the Jakarta engine pretty much anywhere. I can't guarentee I can get PHP working on a windows box. I CAN guarentee I can get Jakarta working, as long as I can put the JDK (or just JRE) on the box.
One definite drawback w/ JSP is that it prefers only writing text. It only gives you access to a "Writer" object, and not the OutputStream. This means that if you want to generate an image on the fly (say, a hit-counter that returns a "gif", like early perl code used to do), you HAVE to use a servlet, or bypass the Writer and go dig out the OutputStream object from the Servlet context. This is technically a standards violation, and isn't portable:(.
Also, the Tag Library part of the new standard is to address the issues of separation of logic from presentation (a common thread in ALL the J2EE products). The logician creates the tags, the presentor creates the web pages that know how to access them. The tags remain as behind-the-scenes java classes that the presentor doesn't need to know about. Does depend on a clean black-box interface design by the implementor, which can be a rarity. Many programmers can build an application. Few can build good libraries.
An even better solution is the extension of servlets called JSP -- Java Server Pages. In this case, you (like w/ an embeded scripting language like server-side javascript or w3-msql), write HTML with embedded java code, and the JSP engine translates that into a java servlet (or in gnujsp's case a "Template" instance) w/ html embeded as "out.println()" instructions.
The current standard now has support for "tag libraries" where the JSP programmer can write html/xml-like tags to support doing the "logic" of the page, then the presentation guy can use the provided tags, in combination w/ html, to do the layout and make it look nice/consistent. the presentation person doesn't need to know any java at all.
I have java turned off in my browser.... I'm convinced that java is just not stable enough to be something that I can rely on
Meaningless to this discussion. Applets and stability are the product of the browser's implementation of the JVM, which yes has a reputation for being rather crappy.
What we're talking about here are SERVLETS -- instead of CGI, a java process takes the form data (or does the reading of a database) and generates the html that the browser sees. To the browser, like w/ c/c++, perl, python, whatever, all it sees and knows is html (maybe with some javascript thrown in, depending on the nature of the web application).
This is all contained/managed within the web server.
1) If a patent clerk refuses a patent, (s)he may be called in to court to defend the refusal. That wastes their time they'd rather be doing their job, and is a stress (_any_ court appearance is stressful) they'd rather not go through. Thus, its far easier to just pass the patent and let some challanging company go through the rigor instead.
2) Patent office researchers don't get paid enough. To really know whether a patent is valid, one must know the industry, and have the intelligence and education to make a proper decision. If you have that kind of experience, would you work for the PTO that pays you standard government salaries, or would you work competitively in the industry itself? Worse still are those who are paid a TON to write the patent's, legaleze since there's so much money involved if it passes.
IMHO, there really is no way the PTO can really get the right kind of people working for them. The only exceptions are those that _want_ to do it, and they're getting fewer and farther between...
Yes, Qwest got floored...HARD. our connection from an office outside Washington, DC went down instantly when the wire was cut.
Right now, we're re-routing through a frame relay to keep things moving.
My real gripe about this is how very few other news sources even bothered to mention this... this is actually kinda important, future wise, yet Reuters and AP didn't mention a thing about it.
The culture and the lifestyle that Katz discusses and that we participate in is incredibly young, underdeveloped, and misunderstood, even by its own members.
I don't think its so much "misunderstood". We're a very emotional group, though to the "outsiders" they don't see our emotions the same way we do. We're also very logical, and reason is as important to us as our emotions (even the use of logic to reach an emotional state -- why i'm a programmer).
We're also generally non-conformists. Whenever told that a non-conformist is conforming to some group or stereotype, (s)he will immediately come up with reasons why (s)he doesn't belong to that group. The problem is that we're being told by those analyzing us that we belong to a group of non-conformists...logical paradox, not easily resolved.
Hence, a source of some the more emotional responces and rejects of attempts to define geekdom in any context.
But that's just my opinion...
Joe
"ShutUp" software predates the web.
on
ShutUp Software
·
· Score: 1
> reinventing Usenet (but with a very lousy user interface)
as opposed to Usenet which (traditionally) has no user interface at all...:)
i'm gonna play "dittohead" for one of the few times in my life.
Actually, I'm incredibly lazy. Or to put it more succinctly, I am an incredible slacker (all hail Bob!).
And my lazyness is one of the reasons I'm a great programmer, both in implementation, and in GUI design. I hate (absolutely abhor) to do anything twice. Three times is my max. When I have done something, codewise, 3 times (with small variations), I immediately yank it out and make a new method or class or (C++ Template).
"Europeans tend to have a more disciplined, engineered approach to software development. I think we can carry some of that philosophy over to the U.S. without making people feel like they're being boxed-in"
Software "Engineering" is still something of a misnomer. Software in many respects is still a craft, and discipline is efficiency of design before it is efficiency of effort. If your mind is disciplined, you analyze the problem completely before you code, and your code will be more efficient because of the design (in theory).
"lean more on using packaged software than we do in the U.S...."
I take it this means that they count code generated by code-generators in common GUI building IDE's as "developed code"? Also a major falicy as we all know.
Most of Netscape's money came from Corporate site-license sales, not from us piddly little single-user downloads.
The BIG network companies know that site-license is better than individual sales. E.g., notice how the phone companies have stayed out of the home internet access (something originally expected they would dominate) and instead have gone to the big one-shot money of backbone support.
MS knows this, that's for sure. Most Office upgrades come (due to the incompatible file formats) when first, the office head upgrades his copy, then forces his employees to upgrade theirs in a big site-license deal, THEN (and here's where the real money comes in) the employees have to update (at their OWN expense, and at store prices, not site-license prices) the copies of Office on their personal portables and home systems, in order to be able to take work home...THAT's where Office gets it money...
A coordinated letter-writing campaign to Congress.
In particular, push it to Senators who've been very "pro-internet", particularly "pro-internet-shopping", since many of the patents have been "I know own the complete rights to on-line shopping" or "I own the digital 'Shopping Cart'".
My first suggestion would be Senator Leahy from Vermont. His bills (some passed into law) have already acknowledged his interest into protecting online rights (from a copyright standpoint). He should be the easiest to convince that the Patent system now is doing the exact opposite of promoting true development on the web.
Obviously, this should wait until after the Clinton fiasco is finally out of "public thought" and Congress is ready to do something approaching "real work" again.
Slashdot Mirror
That kinda depends on the complexity of the web application, and the nature of consistency you want with the page layout and all that.
:(.
A recent JavaReport article did quite a good bit of descriptions on how you can use a servlet as the front to the sets of services underneith, which can be servlets or jsp pages, depending on which is more appropriate.
I personally grow tired of digging through java to find html tags in order to change the page layout (or at least i did when i was building CGI in C/C++). Server-Side includes helped a bit, but when i got an embedded scripting form (w3-msql), I much preferred it. I suppose I'd be more interested in PHP for my solutions if i hadn't already latched onto JSP. I also prefer JSP for its portability. I can take the Jakarta engine pretty much anywhere. I can't guarentee I can get PHP working on a windows box. I CAN guarentee I can get Jakarta working, as long as I can put the JDK (or just JRE) on the box.
One definite drawback w/ JSP is that it prefers only writing text. It only gives you access to a "Writer" object, and not the OutputStream. This means that if you want to generate an image on the fly (say, a hit-counter that returns a "gif", like early perl code used to do), you HAVE to use a servlet, or bypass the Writer and go dig out the OutputStream object from the Servlet context. This is technically a standards violation, and isn't portable
Also, the Tag Library part of the new standard is to address the issues of separation of logic from presentation (a common thread in ALL the J2EE products). The logician creates the tags, the presentor creates the web pages that know how to access them. The tags remain as behind-the-scenes java classes that the presentor doesn't need to know about. Does depend on a clean black-box interface design by the implementor, which can be a rarity. Many programmers can build an application. Few can build good libraries.
another link:
An even better solution is the extension of servlets called JSP -- Java Server Pages. In this case, you (like w/ an embeded scripting language like server-side javascript or w3-msql), write HTML with embedded java code, and the JSP engine translates that into a java servlet (or in gnujsp's case a "Template" instance) w/ html embeded as "out.println()" instructions.
The current standard now has support for "tag libraries" where the JSP programmer can write html/xml-like tags to support doing the "logic" of the page, then the presentation guy can use the provided tags, in combination w/ html, to do the layout and make it look nice/consistent. the presentation person doesn't need to know any java at all.
Links on jsp
Meaningless to this discussion. Applets and stability are the product of the browser's implementation of the JVM, which yes has a reputation for being rather crappy.
What we're talking about here are SERVLETS -- instead of CGI, a java process takes the form data (or does the reading of a database) and generates the html that the browser sees. To the browser, like w/ c/c++, perl, python, whatever, all it sees and knows is html (maybe with some javascript thrown in, depending on the nature of the web application).
This is all contained/managed within the web server.
Two reasons "obvious" patents get passed:
1) If a patent clerk refuses a patent, (s)he may
be called in to court to defend the refusal. That
wastes their time they'd rather be doing their
job, and is a stress (_any_ court appearance is
stressful) they'd rather not go through. Thus,
its far easier to just pass the patent and let
some challanging company go through the rigor
instead.
2) Patent office researchers don't get paid
enough. To really know whether a patent is
valid, one must know the industry, and have
the intelligence and education to make a proper
decision. If you have that kind of experience,
would you work for the PTO that pays you standard
government salaries, or would you work
competitively in the industry itself? Worse still
are those who are paid a TON to write the
patent's, legaleze since there's so much money involved if it passes.
IMHO, there really is no way the PTO can really
get the right kind of people working for them.
The only exceptions are those that _want_ to do
it, and they're getting fewer and farther
between...
The system itself is screwed.
If your from New York City or Southern California,
you already know that quepasa is English,
therefore it ain't a translation!
Yes, Qwest got floored...HARD. our connection
from an office outside Washington, DC went down
instantly when the wire was cut.
Right now, we're re-routing through a frame
relay to keep things moving.
My real gripe about this is how very few other
news sources even bothered to mention this...
this is actually kinda important, future wise,
yet Reuters and AP didn't mention a thing
about it.
are u kidding? the LAST thing we want is
filtering software that _actually_works_!
:)
The culture and the lifestyle that Katz discusses and that we participate in is incredibly young, underdeveloped, and misunderstood, even by its own members.
I don't think its so much "misunderstood". We're a very emotional group, though to the "outsiders" they don't see our emotions the same way we do. We're also very logical, and reason is as important to us as our emotions (even the use of logic to reach an emotional state -- why i'm a programmer).
We're also generally non-conformists. Whenever told that a non-conformist is conforming to some group or stereotype, (s)he will immediately come up with reasons why (s)he doesn't belong to that group. The problem is that we're being told by those analyzing us that we belong to a group of non-conformists...logical paradox, not easily resolved.
Hence, a source of some the more emotional responces and rejects of attempts to define geekdom in any context.
But that's just my opinion...
Joe
> reinventing Usenet (but with a very lousy user interface)
:)
as opposed to Usenet which (traditionally) has no user interface at all...
i'm gonna play "dittohead" for one of the few times in my life.
"yeah, what she said"
joe
Actually, I'm incredibly lazy. Or to put it more succinctly, I am an incredible slacker (all hail Bob!).
And my lazyness is one of the reasons I'm a great programmer, both in implementation, and in GUI design. I hate (absolutely abhor) to do anything twice. Three times is my max. When I have done something, codewise, 3 times (with small variations), I immediately yank it out and make a new method or class or (C++ Template).
"Europeans tend to have a more disciplined, engineered approach to software development. I think we can carry some of that philosophy over to the U.S. without making people feel like they're being boxed-in"
Software "Engineering" is still something of a misnomer. Software in many respects is still a craft, and discipline is efficiency of design before it is efficiency of effort. If your mind is disciplined, you analyze the problem completely before you code, and your code will be more efficient because of the design (in theory).
"lean more on using packaged software than we do in the U.S...."
I take it this means that they count code generated by code-generators in common GUI building IDE's as "developed code"? Also a major falicy as we all know.
Proud to be a slacker...
"You lack slack, Jack!"
Most of Netscape's money came from Corporate
site-license sales, not from us piddly little
single-user downloads.
The BIG network companies know that site-license
is better than individual sales. E.g., notice how
the phone companies have stayed out of the home
internet access (something originally expected
they would dominate) and instead have gone to the
big one-shot money of backbone support.
MS knows this, that's for sure. Most Office
upgrades come (due to the incompatible file
formats) when first, the office head upgrades
his copy, then forces his employees to upgrade
theirs in a big site-license deal, THEN
(and here's where the real money comes in) the
employees have to update (at their OWN expense,
and at store prices, not site-license prices)
the copies of Office on their personal portables
and home systems, in order to be able to take
work home...THAT's where Office gets it money...
digusting, IMHO.
joe
Go read your Bob Cringley (the _real_ one, at pbs.org). Jobs is NOT in it for the money. That's what makes him dangerous to the rest...
In particular, push it to Senators who've been very "pro-internet", particularly "pro-internet-shopping", since many of the patents have been "I know own the complete rights to on-line shopping" or "I own the digital 'Shopping Cart'".
My first suggestion would be Senator Leahy from Vermont. His bills (some passed into law) have already acknowledged his interest into protecting online rights (from a copyright standpoint). He should be the easiest to convince that the Patent system now is doing the exact opposite of promoting true development on the web.
Obviously, this should wait until after the Clinton fiasco is finally out of "public thought" and Congress is ready to do something approaching "real work" again.