If all of you were expecting a big, long letter to Creative talking to them about the advantages of Free Software and Open Source, you won't find it today. Oh I could spend the time to write all of that, but only their techs would likely understand it fully and their suits would just not get it. So I'll skip the details on why and just focus on the what:
Creative Labs,
I am pleased to see that you are taking an interest in the Linux platform. I am also pleased that you are now releasing driver support for one of your most interesting products, the SB Live. However, I regret to say that I have not purchased and do not plan to purchase your product at any point in the near future because of what I believe is a lack of sufficcient support for your products. I have seen and was impressed by the SB Live, and would happily reconsider my decision not to purchase your product should the issues I see with support be resolved.
The number one issue I see with support is source code. Without it, I could never right mindedly purchase your product. The only way to use the SB Live is with a software driver. On the Linux platform, these drivers are in the form of kernel modules. Without source, I must wait for you to release a new module every time I wish to upgrade my kernel. This delay is unacceptable to me, and I will not limit myself to the kernel versions you have decided to support.
Additionally, binary only kernel modules pose a significant security and system stability risk. I am not saying necessarily that bugs would not happen--they will. And I'm not saying the coders in the community can fix a problem once discovered any quicker than your in-house coders could--likely they can't. What I am saying is that with published code there are more eyes watching. Bugs are found quicker simply because more people can work to track them down.
Please consider it. The Linux community tends to best support those who best support us.
Wholehearted agreement! I wish I had been homeschooled for much the same reason.
I do have the horror stories to tell and was forced to leave school shortly before my 16th birthday and get my GED. Since then I have been trying to not stop learning since.
Despite the claims that the Internet is the CAUSE of all this madness, I would say instead that it is in fact the best tool to change the system and hopefully never again see kids driven to this sort of extreme.
Yes, I was one of those ridiculed at school and it only got worse as I got older. I am legally blind, which made me an easy target, but worse than that I was the one with the 95% test scores and decent grades, even though most everyone knew I seldom bothered with homework.. I was pushed down flights of stairs. I had the sunglasses I MUST wear if I go outside destroyed on a number of occasions. I've come home with bruises, cuts, scrapes, and torn clothing. I've had books stolen from outside of my book bag. I've had threatening notes and worse show up in my locker. I had the laptop lent to me for schoolwork "moved" (read: stolen and hidden away such that a teacher and I spent two hours looking for it) And I had computers and violent games then. You know what, I never shot or stabbed anyone, but I almost have to say that I can see what these kids are going through---I've been there. Of course that doesn't excuse what they do about it---not for a second! There is something seriously wrong with these kids and they need either to be in a mental ward or in prison for what they've done.
Now I promised a possible solution, so here it is: Home schooling. I'm serious. People tell me all the time that it's hard to teach their kids at home, but it's not really. They also tell me that kids need to be around other kids---to that I ask do they REALLY? And besides, supervised Internet access for children is a great way for them to interact with other kids in their area. The Internet also provides a place for kids and their parents to go for help when they need it. Many parents who homeschool their kids now will agree that the Interent definitely makes it easier and does allow the kids to interact with others, usually with better results than any interaction in school.
Not to mention that this way you don't have to eat school cafeteria food. And that lunch hour is supposedly your interactivity time at school anyway past the 6th grade. And your kids will learn at their pace, rather than the pace of the entire class. This invariably leads to the ability to learn more. It also leads to less busy-work, which at least 2/3 of the homework schools give kids is anyway. And you take away the need to compete to be the best student in the class or to lash out at those who did better on the homework or the last test than you did. All in all it's a better environment for learning.
It is harder for a family with two working parents or a single parent, but believe it or not I have seen a group of people in an area work together in cases like this.. It ends up being a small classroom in those cases, but the students are usually different ages and at different levels so it does still help to solve the problem.
I cannot stress enough that the Internet does NOT replace a teacher anymore than a TV should replace a babysitter. It's merely a tool to be used and works best when used properly.
If they can deliver what they promise, US$1500 is a bargain! I have to wonder if I could actually see the thing though. I can't see my monitor at 2 feet away, but then again this will be sitting on my nose, not 2 feet away. That might make a difference with astigmatism. It'll be interesting either way.
One step closer to implanted personal electronics.. *drool*
I'm a Debian developer, so naturally I'm supposed to think all other dists suck and that Redhat is the next Micro$oft. But you know what? I don't. They aren't. They're another distribution and they are pumping money into Free Software. Not quasi-free or semi-free, but genuine honest to the gods Free Software. There are truly evil distributions out there, but Redhat isn't one of them. Even if you don't use it you should be supportive of their efforts. Supportive doesn't mean you don't work on a similar product that isn't going to compete with them, naturally. =>
Sure I feel that Redhat often puts commercial deadline before high quality and stability and I feel even more like Redhat is continuing the Windoze tradition of.0 releases being unstable and buggy before they fix them in.1 and.2 releases, but still that is my personal perception and gripe. It doesn't necessarily make Redhat evil per se and Redhat has opened their development efforts more which will help to cure the buggy.0 release syndrome. That's GOOD and I applaud them for this.
And of course I feel Debian is a better distribution. Why else would I spend my time working on it? But just because Debian is IMO better doesn't make the others BAD. I'm greatly saddened by all of the my-software-rules-and-yours-sucks crap I see on irc and in newsgroups and mailing lists. If you think a particular piece of software is crap, don't run it, it's simple. Or even better, tell the people responsible for new releases what you want to see. What's the worst that could happen, they tell you they won't make the changes you want to see? Bickering like I see constantly helps nobody.
You'd be surprised how many times I have told someone "I don't like this about your software, would you consider maybe making it more like this instead?" to receive an answer in a day or two on the order of "Great idea! Why didn't I think of it sooner?"
You certainly didn't offer much of a way to email you... Your email address is not available with the message, at your web page, nor is there a reference to the project along with an email on lilo's agalmics page..
To speak for myself personally, I am not in the phone book. I also do not use services which require personal information and reserve the right to sell this information unless they in turn guarantee me in writing that they will not use my information.
On the other hand, I do submit postal information with companies and organizations I do wish to send me commercial postal mail, catalogs, flyers, etc. I have even at one time or another offered my email address to a company which stated that they would occasionally send me advertising in exchange for a service. I just procmail their advertising into a folder other than my inbox. Yes I do look at it--not closely usually, but I do look.
My time has a price. If you force me to spend my time reading spam, I will take the extra time do do whatever I can to help make your life hell. If you want to offer me a useful service in exchange for commercial email which I can sort someplace other than my primary inbox and look at it when I want, I'll actually look at it.
As for postal junkmail, I can very easily process that at my convenience anyway.
Configuration is the big thing we know Corel will be working on with us. This includes X (which I have been saying has only pathetic configuration tools for a long time), and yeah if I get my two cents in as everyone is probably certain I will, the result will be task based with the ability to fine-tune the results safely. That's how it Should Be anyway.
Simple defaults like "Configure the network for a dialup PPP system" and "Configure the network for a workstation on a LAN" type things? Yeah, that goes back to task based config you mention above.
PCI device detection should be in every dist RIGHT NOW. It's there, it's easy, and it's 100% safe. All the dist has to do ir read/proc! PnP ISA is something we're talking about.
"Real" apps? All I can say is Freshmeat's daily update is approaching mailbomb status. There are apps. And there are starting to be some pretty useful ones for people who think they are stuck with windoze because they can't get the kind of app they want for Linux. It's happening, believe me.
Actually, I think a large part of the problem is that people tend to act that way about whatever they use. "Redhat sucks, the only worthwhile dist is !!" It happens on the BSD side too. Hopefully eventially the dust will settle and people will realize that while we may have our preferences, in the end it's all good enough to get the job done and it's all Free Software. (Speaking of course for Linux and the free BSD's of course)
Just pick one you like for the reasons you like it and call it good enough.
On the documentation front we are working on it. There is the developer's reference which is starting to come together, there's the user's guide which is not the easiest to find a printed copy of but it is good, and there are Debian Unleased and other books being worked on.
(I won't plug my own book because it's not being published yet, but when it gets to that point I'll be sure to bug everyone about looking for/at it. It is kinda focused on the new user but it should be cool for all users to read..)
The problem is (and remains) that in order to make corporations happy with Open Source, OSI is always compromising. To those of us who have philisophical and moral ties to Free Software, these constant compromises and exceptions cut like a knife. With each new compromise we feel we're losing a little more. OSI can never represent me until it understands this.
I'll add my voice to the others suggesting you should have read the article. Seriously. While I would agree this is probably another "Poor Eric" paper (which are getting as tiresome as "Poor Richard" stories in my personal opinion), you shouldn't flame what you didn't read.
I did read it on the other hand, so I'll flame it happily where it needs to be flamed.
What Eric seems to be missing throughout this paper is the reason people are so quick to publically and vocally flame his decisions and statements. So far as I can tell, and indeed so far as anyone can tell, Eric appears to make statements and decisions based solely on his opinion. I have never seen Eric ask "what do you people think?" of the community. If he would start asking for and representing the views of the community he claims to represent, people will be more likely to accept him as a representative.
So far he has not been representing my views. Because his personal views are very much in conflict with mine in all too many ways, I have a hard time trusting that Eric is going to do the right thing. As long as I can't trust him to do the right thing, I'm going to have to remain very skeptical of him and his announcements.
I have watched Eric make a number of what I consider to be grave and even dangerous errors in judgement. I'm certainly not the only one who thinks so otherwise he'd be getting a lot less flame mail. My suggestion to Eric is therefore that he stop trying to lead the community. He is not IMO doing a very good job at it anyway. Eric may consider himself an ambassador, but that isn't how he's been acting or if he has he's not been my ambassador and likely not yours either.
By acting rather than first thinking to consult the group which collectively is far more important than any one man's ego, he invites flames and other public figures in the community to openly oppose him. This is where statements like those from RMS and the joint statement issued by Bruce Perens, SPI, and Debian come from.
Eric, take the afternoon off. Go home, spend some time with your family, go out for ice cream or something... Come back tomorrow morning and think about what I've written then. You'll get a lot further if you don't try to do everything yourself.
Be that as it may, the term Open Source isn't going away now. Some have suggested that SPI take active control over Open Source and effectively kill it, but that would be a disaster at this point IMO. We'd lose all the ground we've crossed and we'd alienate a few of our new friends (as well as push away potential new friends..)
The best thing SPI can do is take an active role in making sure Open Source means what it should mean and what it was intended to mean. I just hope Eric hasn't done too much damage for this to be possible now.
OSI is anti-establishment? ESR has pretty much made himself THE establishment. And SPI is certainly not anti-establishment either. SPI feels that the Open Source mark is being abused and as the rightful owner of that mark in the first place (registered by Bruce Perens in official capacity as SPI's President) the "arguing" over the mark is purely a matter of preventing its corruption. Eric has had his chance at managing the mark and he has tried to corrupt and abuse it. SPI seems unwilling to let this continue, and I agree with SPI!
At this point I'm really concerned about using the GPL personally. However creating YAL (Yet Another License) seems almost as bad. Can't win I guess, eh? =p
Actually, Bruce Perens wrote the Open Source Definition which he (intentionally) made to be pretty much point-for-point identical to the Debian Free Software Guidelines which were inspired by the founding minds behind the Debian distribution with people like Richard Stallman as role models. (Personal and less than glamorous opinions or RMS aside, he WAS a role model in the creation of the DFSG..)
This all happened long before Eric Raymond ever wrote a single essay. The issue seems to be that Eric is losing his focus on what Open Source really means. This saddens me greatly, even though my cynnical nature told me all along that I didn't want to trust him. Still, I was hoping to be wrong in the end.
I'd still like Eric to prove that I'm wrong, but alas I don't see it happening soon. Maybe after he's been burned a time or two.
You just don't give up do you? Try free distribution for starters. The Apple license requires you talk to Apple first. This is most certainly non-free.
Should we be criticizing Apple? Not in the least. Should we point out that their license isn't Open Source and offer to help them correct that problem? Sure we should!
Open Source trademark is not registered to OSI
on
Response to the APSL
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· Score: 1
It is also true then that if ESR is not managing the mark properly that he can be replaced. He is not managing the mark properly if he's saying things are Open Source when they fail the Open Source Definition. I hope SPI takes swift action on this matter.
The Open Source service mark is still legally owned by Software in the Public Interest, Inc. It has never been transferred. The definition of what is or is not Open Source is still the Open Source Definition written by Bruce Perens.
Eric Raymond says the Apple license is Open Source, but then it doesn't meet the Open Source Definition---is this a problem? I think so. And I think Eric is the problem.
Slashdot Mirror
You want them to know you chose hardware with open specs and drivers with source sure, but you don't want to go out of your way to piss them off!
Creative Labs,
I am pleased to see that you are taking an interest in the Linux platform. I am also pleased that you are now releasing driver support for one of your most interesting products, the SB Live. However, I regret to say that I have not purchased and do not plan to purchase your product at any point in the near future because of what I believe is a lack of sufficcient support for your products. I have seen and was impressed by the SB Live, and would happily reconsider my decision not to purchase your product should the issues I see with support be resolved.
The number one issue I see with support is source code. Without it, I could never right mindedly purchase your product. The only way to use the SB Live is with a software driver. On the Linux platform, these drivers are in the form of kernel modules. Without source, I must wait for you to release a new module every time I wish to upgrade my kernel. This delay is unacceptable to me, and I will not limit myself to the kernel versions you have decided to support.
Additionally, binary only kernel modules pose a significant security and system stability risk. I am not saying necessarily that bugs would not happen--they will. And I'm not saying the coders in the community can fix a problem once discovered any quicker than your in-house coders could--likely they can't. What I am saying is that with published code there are more eyes watching. Bugs are found quicker simply because more people can work to track them down.
Please consider it. The Linux community tends to best support those who best support us.
Why am I not surprised? *chuckle* It's an odd world in which we live ...
I do have the horror stories to tell and was forced to leave school shortly before my 16th birthday and get my GED. Since then I have been trying to not stop learning since.
Yes, I was one of those ridiculed at school and it only got worse as I got older. I am legally blind, which made me an easy target, but worse than that I was the one with the 95% test scores and decent grades, even though most everyone knew I seldom bothered with homework.. I was pushed down flights of stairs. I had the sunglasses I MUST wear if I go outside destroyed on a number of occasions. I've come home with bruises, cuts, scrapes, and torn clothing. I've had books stolen from outside of my book bag. I've had threatening notes and worse show up in my locker. I had the laptop lent to me for schoolwork "moved" (read: stolen and hidden away such that a teacher and I spent two hours looking for it) And I had computers and violent games then. You know what, I never shot or stabbed anyone, but I almost have to say that I can see what these kids are going through---I've been there. Of course that doesn't excuse what they do about it---not for a second! There is something seriously wrong with these kids and they need either to be in a mental ward or in prison for what they've done.
Now I promised a possible solution, so here it is: Home schooling. I'm serious. People tell me all the time that it's hard to teach their kids at home, but it's not really. They also tell me that kids need to be around other kids---to that I ask do they REALLY? And besides, supervised Internet access for children is a great way for them to interact with other kids in their area. The Internet also provides a place for kids and their parents to go for help when they need it. Many parents who homeschool their kids now will agree that the Interent definitely makes it easier and does allow the kids to interact with others, usually with better results than any interaction in school.
Not to mention that this way you don't have to eat school cafeteria food. And that lunch hour is supposedly your interactivity time at school anyway past the 6th grade. And your kids will learn at their pace, rather than the pace of the entire class. This invariably leads to the ability to learn more. It also leads to less busy-work, which at least 2/3 of the homework schools give kids is anyway. And you take away the need to compete to be the best student in the class or to lash out at those who did better on the homework or the last test than you did. All in all it's a better environment for learning.
It is harder for a family with two working parents or a single parent, but believe it or not I have seen a group of people in an area work together in cases like this.. It ends up being a small classroom in those cases, but the students are usually different ages and at different levels so it does still help to solve the problem.
I cannot stress enough that the Internet does NOT replace a teacher anymore than a TV should replace a babysitter. It's merely a tool to be used and works best when used properly.
One step closer to implanted personal electronics.. *drool*
Sure I feel that Redhat often puts commercial deadline before high quality and stability and I feel even more like Redhat is continuing the Windoze tradition of .0 releases being unstable and buggy before they fix them in .1 and .2 releases, but still that is my personal perception and gripe. It doesn't necessarily make Redhat evil per se and Redhat has opened their development efforts more which will help to cure the buggy .0 release syndrome. That's GOOD and I applaud them for this.
And of course I feel Debian is a better distribution. Why else would I spend my time working on it? But just because Debian is IMO better doesn't make the others BAD. I'm greatly saddened by all of the my-software-rules-and-yours-sucks crap I see on irc and in newsgroups and mailing lists. If you think a particular piece of software is crap, don't run it, it's simple. Or even better, tell the people responsible for new releases what you want to see. What's the worst that could happen, they tell you they won't make the changes you want to see? Bickering like I see constantly helps nobody.
You'd be surprised how many times I have told someone "I don't like this about your software, would you consider maybe making it more like this instead?" to receive an answer in a day or two on the order of "Great idea! Why didn't I think of it sooner?"
Either way, I'm interested.
On the other hand, I do submit postal information with companies and organizations I do wish to send me commercial postal mail, catalogs, flyers, etc. I have even at one time or another offered my email address to a company which stated that they would occasionally send me advertising in exchange for a service. I just procmail their advertising into a folder other than my inbox. Yes I do look at it--not closely usually, but I do look.
My time has a price. If you force me to spend my time reading spam, I will take the extra time do do whatever I can to help make your life hell. If you want to offer me a useful service in exchange for commercial email which I can sort someplace other than my primary inbox and look at it when I want, I'll actually look at it.
As for postal junkmail, I can very easily process that at my convenience anyway.
Simple defaults like "Configure the network for a dialup PPP system" and "Configure the network for a workstation on a LAN" type things? Yeah, that goes back to task based config you mention above.
PCI device detection should be in every dist RIGHT NOW. It's there, it's easy, and it's 100% safe. All the dist has to do ir read /proc! PnP ISA is something we're talking about.
"Real" apps? All I can say is Freshmeat's daily update is approaching mailbomb status. There are apps. And there are starting to be some pretty useful ones for people who think they are stuck with windoze because they can't get the kind of app they want for Linux. It's happening, believe me.
Just pick one you like for the reasons you like it and call it good enough.
(I won't plug my own book because it's not being published yet, but when it gets to that point I'll be sure to bug everyone about looking for/at it. It is kinda focused on the new user but it should be cool for all users to read..)
The problem is (and remains) that in order to make corporations happy with Open Source, OSI is always compromising. To those of us who have philisophical and moral ties to Free Software, these constant compromises and exceptions cut like a knife. With each new compromise we feel we're losing a little more. OSI can never represent me until it understands this.
Okay, who is RMS now? hehe
The issue is that he makes his announcements before he has a chance to hear from people.
I did read it on the other hand, so I'll flame it happily where it needs to be flamed.
What Eric seems to be missing throughout this paper is the reason people are so quick to publically and vocally flame his decisions and statements. So far as I can tell, and indeed so far as anyone can tell, Eric appears to make statements and decisions based solely on his opinion. I have never seen Eric ask "what do you people think?" of the community. If he would start asking for and representing the views of the community he claims to represent, people will be more likely to accept him as a representative.
So far he has not been representing my views. Because his personal views are very much in conflict with mine in all too many ways, I have a hard time trusting that Eric is going to do the right thing. As long as I can't trust him to do the right thing, I'm going to have to remain very skeptical of him and his announcements.
I have watched Eric make a number of what I consider to be grave and even dangerous errors in judgement. I'm certainly not the only one who thinks so otherwise he'd be getting a lot less flame mail. My suggestion to Eric is therefore that he stop trying to lead the community. He is not IMO doing a very good job at it anyway. Eric may consider himself an ambassador, but that isn't how he's been acting or if he has he's not been my ambassador and likely not yours either.
By acting rather than first thinking to consult the group which collectively is far more important than any one man's ego, he invites flames and other public figures in the community to openly oppose him. This is where statements like those from RMS and the joint statement issued by Bruce Perens, SPI, and Debian come from.
Eric, take the afternoon off. Go home, spend some time with your family, go out for ice cream or something... Come back tomorrow morning and think about what I've written then. You'll get a lot further if you don't try to do everything yourself.
The best thing SPI can do is take an active role in making sure Open Source means what it should mean and what it was intended to mean. I just hope Eric hasn't done too much damage for this to be possible now.
OSI is anti-establishment? ESR has pretty much made himself THE establishment. And SPI is certainly not anti-establishment either. SPI feels that the Open Source mark is being abused and as the rightful owner of that mark in the first place (registered by Bruce Perens in official capacity as SPI's President) the "arguing" over the mark is purely a matter of preventing its corruption. Eric has had his chance at managing the mark and he has tried to corrupt and abuse it. SPI seems unwilling to let this continue, and I agree with SPI!
At this point I'm really concerned about using the GPL personally. However creating YAL (Yet Another License) seems almost as bad. Can't win I guess, eh? =p
This all happened long before Eric Raymond ever wrote a single essay. The issue seems to be that Eric is losing his focus on what Open Source really means. This saddens me greatly, even though my cynnical nature told me all along that I didn't want to trust him. Still, I was hoping to be wrong in the end.
I'd still like Eric to prove that I'm wrong, but alas I don't see it happening soon. Maybe after he's been burned a time or two.
Actually, I suspect your article of score 1 to remain score 1. As to the "advertising" above, we'll see.
Then there's that termination clause....
Should we be criticizing Apple? Not in the least. Should we point out that their license isn't Open Source and offer to help them correct that problem? Sure we should!
It is also true then that if ESR is not managing the mark properly that he can be replaced. He is not managing the mark properly if he's saying things are Open Source when they fail the Open Source Definition. I hope SPI takes swift action on this matter.
Eric Raymond says the Apple license is Open Source, but then it doesn't meet the Open Source Definition---is this a problem? I think so. And I think Eric is the problem.