Slashdot Mirror
The Price of Being Different
Joan McDonald has been a teacher in a New York State suburban public high school for nearly three decades. "While deeply saddened by the tragedy in Littleton," she wrote Tuesday, "I am appalled at the resulting backlash our students are forced to suffer" in the wake of the Littleton massacre.
The last thing we need in the 20th Century, she wrote, is another witchhunt.
But that's what we're getting. McDonald described what hundreds of other teachers, administrators and students have been reporting all week - an assault on speech, dress, behavior or values that the media, politicians and some educators deem uncomfortably different a/k/a geek, nerd, Goth, the usual labels.
In a Gallup poll this week, 82 per cent of Americans surveyed said the Internet was at least partly to blame for the Colorado killings. And schools across the country were banning trench coats, backpacks, black clothing, white make-up, Goth music, computer gaming shirts and symbols. They installed hotlines and "concern" boxes for anonymous "tips" about the behavior of non-mainstream students. Kids who talked openly about anger and alienation, or who confessed thoughts of revenge or fantasies of violence against people who'd been tormenting and excluding them, were hauled off to counselors.
Thus the students already at risk, already suffering, have become suspects, linked in various thoughtless ways to mass murder and - consequently - more alienated than before.
The number of incidents involving disaffected kids and schools is growing. In Canada, a 14-year-old boy shot two students at a high school in Alberta, killing one. In Brooklyn, five boys were charged with conspiracy after allegedly compiling a list of people to be killed in an attacked planned for their schools commencement on June 26. In Oak Lawn, Illinois, a 15-year-old boy was charged with assault and disorderly conduct after an ax, knives, a rifle, shotguns, and 150 rounds of ammunition were found in his home. In California, one student was arrested for threatening to burn down a middle school and another for threatening to blow up the high school. In the city of Chicago, a 15-year-old was caught with a .22 caliber gun taped to his ankle. Pennsylvania officials reported at least 52 bomb scares and other threats at schools in 22 counties. In Washington, more than 12,000 high school students were evacuated after a caller said hed placed a bomb in one of the citys 13 public schools. In Longwood, Florida, a 13-year-old student was arrested after allegedly threatening to place a bomb at the school and kill eighth graders who had tormented him. A note on a map hes supposedly drawn included the phrase "revenge will be sweet."
"I just came right now from the counselor's office," e-mailed DrgnD. "I scored a thousand. I had on a long coat, was wearing black and loudly told the jerk sitting next to me that I'd do my best to kill him if he ever called me a " trenchcoat freak" again. I am now officially on probation. He is not."
Among the many other consequences of the Columbine High School tragedy: the cost of being different just went up.
Take the Goths, one of the distinct sub-cultures singled out by the press and linked to the Littleton bloodbath. Gothwalker says he (Drew) wrote his principal after his school made plans to ban black clothing, trenchcoats and Marylyn Manson music.
Goths have been e-mailing me for months now.
One of the most individualistic, interesting, and yes, gloomy subcultures, Goth is a style - of music, dress, state of mind. In general, Goths wear black, hang out on the Net, experiment with androgynous styles, are sometimes drawn to piercings, tattoos and white makeup; and love Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy and the Cure. Among their cherished authors are Sartre, Burroughs, Shelley and Poe. Fascinated with death (a taboo in the media and certainly in schools, along with sex and the open discussion of religion), Goths see it as a part of life.
In general, though, Goths do not hurt people. They brood; they emote; but the idea that they are murderous is a cultural libel.
One of the educational system's pervasive responses to Littleton was to lecture oddballs and geeks about the importance of not slaughtering others. One thing geeks and nerds hardly need is patronizing, offensive lesssons about the importance of not committing massacres. They're probably one of the least likely cultures in American life to commit homicide; their weapons of choice are electronic flames, not machine guns.
Of the thousands of e-mail messages I got this week (4,000 between Friday and Wednesday is my best guess), not one advocated violence or supported assault, murder or revenge.
Although many expressed sympathy for the killers as well as the victims in Littleton (unlike, say Time Magazine, which accompanied cover photos of the killers with the headline "The Monsters Next Door"), no one threatened violence, supported it, or approved of it.
But the stories of physical, verbal, emotional and administrative abusive that came pouring in were stunning, a scandal for an educational system that makes much noise about wholesomeness and safety, but has turned a blind eye for years to the persecution of individualistic and vulnerable students.
The Voices from the Hellmouth series on Slashdot this week demonstrated the power of interactivity and connectivity. Kids passed it around to one another, to parents, friends, teachers and guidance counselors.
"My seventeen year-old son handed me a print -out of your Littleton article," wrote Bagatti. "No one seems to think that peer abuse is real or damaging. I would like to see any adult report for work and be taunted, humiliated, harassed, and degraded every single day without going stark, raving mad. Human beings are not wired for abuse."
One of the clear messages from all of the e-mail was that it's time for geeks and nerds and the assorted "others" of the world to assert themselves, to begin defining and asserting their long overdue rights, perhaps with the help of the communicative possibilities of the Net. And to begin the work of re-structuring American schools - barely changed in generations despite the ongoing Information Revolution - and their frequently warped procedures, infrastructure and value systems.
At the very top of the agenda: Freedom from abuse, humiliation and cruelty. Geeks, nerds, and oddballs have the right to attend school in safety. Teachers and administrators have an obligation to make dignity for everybody - not just the popular and the conventional -- an urgent educational concern, in the same way they've taken on racism and other forms of bigotry.
Geeks who are harassed and humiliated should report the assaults, and perhaps using the possibilities of the Internet, take their complaints farther if they are ignored or further victimized. Online, they can receive support, advice, even counseling if necessary. Judging from many of my e-mail messages, it is.
Each generation has the right to determine its own culture. Culture isn't just symphony orchestras, movies about dead British royalty and hard-bound books. For some, culture is now also gaming, websites, chat and messaging systems, TV shows, music and movies.
No generation has the right to dictate to another what its culture ought to be, or to degrade its choices as stupid and offensive. Yet geek and nerd culture is continuously denounced as isolating, addictive and, now, even murderous.
Games like Tribe, Unreal, Quake, even The Legend of Zelda, and yes, Doom, can be astoundingly creative, challenging and imaginative. They are often demanding, played in communal and interactive ways. Some people may be uncomfortable with some of their imagery.
But youth culture has frequently been offensive to adults - that's often the point - and culture has always evolved. Adults seem to have no memories of their own early lives. Early rock and roll was likened to medieval plagues by the clueless journalists and nervous educators of the time. Now, next to some extreme forms of hip-hop, Chuck Berry seems as dangerous as Beethoven.
Adolescence is a surreal world: kids who don helmets and practice banging into one another for hours each week are deemed healthy and wholesome, even heroic. Geeks are branded strange and anti-social for building and participating in one of the world's truly revolutionary new cultures - the Internet and the World Wide Web.
Or for being isolated or lacking school spirit. Or for listening to industrial music or wearing odd clothes. But perhaps geek kids are isolated partly because schools don't provide them with any means of connecting.
Educators need to radically expand their notions of what culture is, and to re-consider the messages of disdain they continuously send some of their potentially most creative and students.
Inhabitants of a new world, with a new culture, geeks often find that the old symbols don't work for them - pep rallies, proms, assemblies, etc. In fact, scholars like Janet Murray of MIT ("Hamlet On The Holodeck") are beginning to explore the ways in which interactivity and representational writing and thinking are changing the very neural systems of the young.
Instead of banning Doom and Quake, schools should be forming Doom and Quake clubs, presided over by teachers who actually know something about the online world ( my e-mail indicates that there's one frustrated geek on the faculty in most schools). Any school with a football team ought to have a computer gaming, web design or programming team as well. Geeks ought to see their interests represented in educational settings, to not simply feel pushed to the margins of everyone else's. When these new interests and values are recognized and institutionalized, geek kids may have more status, and feel less like aliens in their own schools.
Schools need to provide choices. Educators love to talk empowerment, but few seem to grasp what it means. Geek kids are not, in general, docile and obedient; their subculture is argumentative and outspoken. Online, each person makes his or her own rules, goes where he or she wants to go. Increasingly, it's a difficult transition between free-wheeling cyberspace and the oppressive, rule-bound Old Fartism that dominates American education.
"School sucks," e-mailed Jane from Florida. "It's run like a police state, and it's boring and clueless."
Kids raised in interactive environments - with zappers, Nintendos, computers, sophisticated games - complain that they sometimes struggle in environments where adults stand for hours droning at them about passive things. This doesn't mean they are dumb, just different. Their digital world is much more vital, colorful and engaging that their educational one.
Geeks are used to choice, a landmark cultural and political issue for them. It's the responsibility of schools to create more challenging and interactive environments for its students - a benefit for all younger people who need to learn how to analyze, how to question, how to reach decisions, not just how to take notes and then check the right boxes on the midterm.
And: freedom. Why does the First Amendment end at the school door, when many kids, especially geeks, have spent much of their lives in the freest part of American culture - the Internet? Online, people can speak about anything: dump on God, talk about sex, flame pundits, express themselves politically and rebelliously. In school, no one can.
Geeks, perhaps more accustomed to free expression than their non-wired peers, increasingly and disturbingly refer to schools as "fascistic" environments in which they are censored and oppressed. All kids can't have absolute freedom all the time but many kids, especially older ones raised in the Digital Age, need more than they're getting. Without it, they will become increasingly alienated.
A gaming website like PlanetQuake gets more than 70,000 visitors a day; Planet Halflife gets about 30,000. GameSpy, which helps gamers connect to local games, draws between 60,000 and 80,000. Estimates of online gamers in the United States alone run as high as 15 to 20 million people. The half-baked notion that this activity sparks kids to grab lethal weapons and murder their peers sends a particular kind of message to the millions of kids gaming on and off-line -- that the people responsible for educating and protecting them (politicians, therapists, journalists, educators - have no idea what they are talking about, and are posturing in the most ignorant and self-serving ways. It's hard to imagine a more alienating lesson for the young than that.
Finally: access to popular culture and to the Internet isn't a privilege. It's a right. For many kids, the Net isn't alienation, but its alternative; it's their intellectual, social, cultural and political wellspring. They need it to learn, to feel safe and connected, and to function economically, socially and politically in the next century. Obviously, no rights come without responsibilities - and those should be spelled out both in schools and in families. But access to the Net and to other facets of one's culture ought not be a toy that parents and teachers are willing to dispense to "good" and "normal" boys and girls. For many kids, it's their lifeblood, and it shouldn't be restricted, withdrawn or used manipulatively except under the most serious circumstances.
It already seems clear from the stories coming out of Colorado that the two young killers killers were severely disturbed, victims of mental illness about which we know, to date, very little. The media roadshow - increasingly our leading transmitter of national hysterias -- that quickly engulfs stories like these demands answers, and has an endless supply of experts happy to go on TV and supply them.
But Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, along with the completely innocent people that they slaughtered, are also victims deserving of compassion. Their illnesses may or may not have been exacerbated by social cruelty and alienation, they may or may not have been affected by access to violent imagery and/or lethal weaponry. We may never be able to answer the why's their act provoked. Human minds, for all we're learning about them, sometimes remain mysterious, human acts inexplicable.
Reading all these messages from the Hellmouth this week, I've been overwhelmed by the outpouring of suffering generated by the experience of going to school, and by the brutal price people have paid and are paying for being different. Few people commit violence in schools, but way too many have fantasized about it.
These messages were, in different ways, all saying the same thing. A humane society truly concerned about its children would worry less about oddballs, computer games and clothing, and more about creating the kind of schools kids would never dream of blowing up.
Postscript-just came in:
My life has been turned upside down over the last few days, all because
I wear a trenchcoat to school. The vice principal called the local
sheriff because of rumors that he herd. On Friday I had my home
searched by 3 deputies when they didn't find any thing I thought that it
was the end of my humiliation but it was only the start. When I got to
school Friday I had to spend a entire hour talking to the vice principal
and a guidance councilor. Today when I got to school I was called back
to his office and this time had a nice chat with a detective from the
local police. This time the person from the police was asking me about
rumors that when the sheriff searched my home that they found weapons
and bombs. I now have a police investigation going on about rumors of
the sheriff's investigation. In the mean time I have been speeding more
time out of class then in it. When will this witch hunt end? When can I
get back to my life? And when will the nation learn that it is
pointless to composite for long periods of inaction with extreme over
reaction.
Mootar in central IL
200 rounds of ammo. $70.
Two ski masks. $24.
Two black trench coats. $260.
Seeing the expression on your classmates' faces right before you blow their heads off. Priceless.
There are some things money can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard.
Well... aint that typical of USA schools.
Hell, lets ban Priests now, they were black.
Lets ban michael jackson too for white makeup
its so funny, we protected the 'free' world from evil hitler and nazis' and communism, but hell, you ended up with a system thats about the same as the 2 evils put together. Ruthless, unforgiving, and big brother. Maybe perhaps allthose nazis that escaped to usa are really in control?
Hell, im glad I just dont live in usa. So much for the 'free' country crap.
KARMA
for pumping out a line of identical trained monkeys suitable for the needs of industry. Conform or leave. Glad I left.
There were over 1000 comments in the 1st article, which I can accept. It was a new geek related topic. But then, the same story (just more testimonials) appeared again. Slashdot was bogged and buggy 'overload' mode was enabled that made lots of comments disappear and /. was still bogged down. Now we're doing it for a third time? Enough is enough. For the good of the CPU and bandwidth loads, Katz needs to be grounded for a time until he can play fair and share computing resources with everyone else nicely.
Besides, those people in various high schools who were compiling hit lists or who were found with various ammunition lying around - a 15-yr-old with a .22? I don't feel bad for any of these people for being caught. I feel bad for people who say something, maybe insensitive, and get suspended for just using words in a context that was clearly not intended to arouse fear or suspicion.
To sum up: This is the most annoying thread I've ever read on slashdot. And it kills bandwidth! And it just won't die. Argggh!
---
"We're gonna need a bigger boat."
Finally someone finds something that **actually matters** outside of this fucked up high tech industry, we get the load to match its importance, and people whine because /. gets /.ed.
If Taco doesn't like it, he can ask Katz to host it on his own servers or, hell, write it up for Wired.
Read up.
-svanegmond@home.com
It just puts the troublemakers out on the street where they're not learning anything, and are only further behind and more frustrated as a result when they return. No. Suspension should be replaced with juvenile hall. Troublemakers need to be put into a prison like classroom where discipline and schooling are rigidly adhered to. They should not just be dumped out at the school gates for two weeks. Ignoring them is not an acceptable punishment.
Well, I came to work this morning only to find that CNN had set up a studio. They're going to shoot a townhall meeting tonight at the Beckman Institute at UIUC. I have no idea what the shootings have to do with cognitive science or nanotechnology (what Beckman is famous for), but there are a lot of geeks here...
I have never been a tremendous fan of Katz's writings from what I have seen on Slashdot. I found most of it to be just superlative fluff, attempting to make issues out of things that are non-issues.
Then I read his pieces on the Littleton/save the geeks issues after seeing how much attention the story was getting. Suprisingly, it touched a place very close to my heart. I can easily empathize with the content of the article, being a gothy ostracized character myself all through middle and high school. I appreciate the work the Jon has done to bring this issue to light.
That said, please stop while you're ahead. I really don't care to see a post every other day about how the great injustice against the non-popular people by the administration et al is making their lives difficult in school. I know this all too well, as I suspect many others on this forum. I went through almost every day wanting to kill myself because of what I went through.
If you want to keep milking this until it is dry (which I think it already is) please don't do it here on Slashdot. As you said, the mainstream media is catching on and you can move your geek fluff pieces over to ABC or whatnot.
I know it is a shame what is happening in the high schools because of this incident, but it is the same knee-jerk reaction that happens in America after any highly publicized incident such as this, and you're not going to change the mentality of the millions of sheeps in this nation. Things will slowly move back to equilibrium soon anyway, once we get past this. And judging from the average American attention span (and I am an American so I have some idea), really soon.
- ECJ
We can't fix the American public school system with "reforms" like geek clubs etc. By the time programs like this were neutered by the bureaucrats they would pathetic scams that no one would bother with.
That bureacracy, perhaps the single largest waste of financial resources and human potential in the history of mankind, cannot and should not be saved. The best an individual can do is to save your own children from it before it completely implodes.
Find or make alternatives for your kids. Let the schools die.
Some backing you up, I suppose.
High school wasn't too bad for me. I had several friends and we hung out and did non-mainstream stuff. I was in the school's science club, and had friendly conversations with many teachers. A friend and I founded the school's tech crew for the theatre department. At least partially due to our involvement, the school began to have a well-developed theatre program, after a lapse of over a decade.
I've experienced ostracism, though, too. For me, it was middle school. By high school, many people had matured to the point of tolerance of others. In middle school, I was picked on, taunted, and assaulted. I know that there's a good bit of stuff that I've blacked out because I don't want to remember it. Were it not for a couple close friends and my parents' support, I don't know if I would have stayed sane.
The geek great awakening! What the hell is this, Revenge of the Nerds? Get a grip, a geek is not part of some particular subculture that's oppressed by the masses, just someone who has an intense passion for (mostly technical or scientific) subject. Its comments like this that make me abhor some of my peers.
Some of us grow up to be very successful...
Yet I still wear boots with skullhead buckles, all black, grey and dark blue clothes and long hair. One thing that does occur even if we don't all look the same is the look ceases to matter so much as ones skills. If you are good at what you do, tolerance of being 'out there' style/attitude wise is amazingly high.
For the reasons listed in the article and more, I'll bet that given the option of choosing a school, many of the best and brightest would bail out of public schools. To be blunt, U.S. public schools cater to the lowest common denominator.
Just ask a foreign exchange student how much credit they get for attending a year of high school in the U.S. The answer may surprise you. (Many, perhaps most, have to repeat the grade!)
I'm voting for whichever candidates support the voucher system and allow me to send my kids to a school of my choosing.
This is simply an attempt to generalize a subculture based on individualism, which is a logically impossible task.
You're suggesting we use exactly the same policy that they're using -- punish behaviour that is feared.
That's not a solution. It's not constructive. You're no better than they are.
Katz needs a forum where he can ride on the hype he generated, like a mainstream media outlet. This is getting to be very inappropriate for Slashdot.
Any school with a football team ought to have a computer gaming, web design or programming team as well. Come on and get real. Every school has a math team and a chess team. A lot of them do have programming teams. Some offer web design classes and students can always form and (un)official gaming team. With regard to Goths: people decide to dress and act a certain way because they want to be different, to stand out, and to elicit a strong reaction. If you ask for a reaction, why are you so suprised when you get one?
Teachers get beat up, threatened, and abused every day. (Name one other white-collar job in which that happens.) We are consistently underpaid for the amount of education we have, and for the amount of continuing education required by our contracts. Damn straight we're going to unionize. If we don't, how much higher will our workload go and our pay fall?
Not to mention that since the school district doesn't provide liability insurance for me. I have to get that somewhere. The Union provides me insurance and a lawyer in case a parent or student sues me. The district provides a pink slip.
The solutions are much more complex than union-busters would have us believe. I wouldn't be in education if I didn't think I was helping to solve the problem, and I'm sick of being told that unions are it.
The reason why people in the end basically act the same way is because they finally realize that we are all made from the same clay--we are all human beings.
We all hurt, laugh, or otherwise stress our bodies based on the actions of others towards ourselves. Eventually, we realize that we are all in this world for the ride. It is your choice if you want to get off prematurely.
When we are young, we do not think like that. We think that there are clear divisions in people--goths, geeks, good people, bad people, etc. As we get older, we realize that these borders begin to get blurry. In our confusion, some of us panic, some of us accept it. Most people accept it and they do at different stages of their lives.
What these kids in Littleton did is not because they were geeks or they were "THIS" or they were "THAT". They all had an underlying hatred and access to things that can ultimately express their hatred. It just IS and there really is no cure or reason for its happening.
The only thing that can be done to prevent this from happening is teach OUR children that hate exists but it is a bad expression. Also teach OUR children how to deal with those who haven't been taught that hate is not good. I can guarantee you that if this is followed, "these people" will become acceptable citizens of our society.
I officially will never visit /. again.
So long, you bunch of wining 'holes.
Why don't you all grow up and just do your own thing.... Bunch of kids, that's who you are talking to Katz. 12 year olds.
If you are "Goth", or whatever you want to call yourself, why are you? And "to be different" just doesn't count this time. If you want to really express yourself why not walk around naked. That would be true expression. Be different in your thoughts, your words, and your imagination, not your clothes.
And you want to know why you are berated? Those that are into "dark" imagery (games, the I., music, etc.) have a tendancy to be lonely, depressed people. Better to find those that have psychotic problems. I know I'd feel safer. Oh, your 16 and hate being investigated, deal with it, you are only a kid.
And those, Katz, that feel stifiled in school, get private tutoring or go to a specialty school. School is not for the 1% of the so-called child geniuses, it's for the masses. It's so everyone has a place they can go to and learn.
WAKE UP OUT OF YOUR OWN LITTLE WORLD!
Yeah, specialize everything so that everyone is catered to, that's the way to go. (sarcasm)
Maybe the egoist was right, and Kant wrong....
I don't think you're entirely correct. Though I am a little bit biased as I once belonged to that group (and it still to this day to a smaller extent). I would say that your post is analogous to saying all computer techies are fat and hairy and have no social life or something like that. It is just the perception of the outside looking in. For example, even I was known as goth among my peers I have never owned a trenchcoat.
The issue may still warrant some attention, but I believe the issue has grown out of the context of Slashdot and deserves to be moved to a more formitable forum. This also seems to be the implisive goal of Katz.
I, myself, have had enough, and do not want to see my beloved obscure computer news site be used as a platform for enhancing Katz's journalistic career.
If we somehow magically made all the teachers and parents of the world suddenly restructure all the schools and related institutions to be more "accepting" of "oddballs" as Katz puts it, these "oddballs" would cease to be "oddballs".
If "goths" were suddenly not considered strange because of the way they currently dress and/or act, they would simply figure out NEW WAYS of dressing and/or acting. It isn't the clothes and music that they like, it is the attention they get for being so radical, and rightly so. Perhaps society would be better off if EVERYONE was a goth (for example). This is how society and humanity itself evolves.
Change is good. Change causes conflict. These are two truths that cannot be socially engineered out of children.
How can you be able to objectively judge another culture based on the precepts of your own? It is all really a relativity issue, what may appear ethical or moral to you most certainly does not apply for everyone else. Furthermore, you can't even draw a common denominator for such things.
- ECJ
People who complain about "net access is a right" and "information have nots" are artificially inflating the true cost of net access. Public library terminals abound. Dumb terminals get thrown away all the time; tack on a 14.4 external for 5 bucks from a flea market, pay twenty bucks a month for a phone line (or pool together on it), twenty more for an ISP account (or free/cheap, with Freenets and other places); pool your funds with others as I did to purchase a net account and "outdated" hardware, throw on free operating systems, and a 56k modem can adequately serve two, or even three users (as long as they're not running Windows :) well, even then it's not bad, and I speak from experience.
But "information have nots" serve as yet another convenient rationalization for all sorts of intrusions. Gotta pay for it somehow; fork over, even if you've no children or disagree with the idea for ANY reason at all; the kiddies at the school and library have their net access funded by someone else, and he who has the gold makes the rules -- thus, they have every "right" to censor that access (filtering software).
-Demona, who only logs in from home.
One thing:
Make sure you don't flood them.
I'm in tech support, I don't talk much, (I call it being ' laconic'), and so I don't confuse those poor saps at the other end of the line.
Ambushing principals/people/newsies with a stack of paper would probably cause a mental hernia/ mental shutdown.
Has anyone here seen the movie "Never Been Kissed"?
The basic plot is that a copy editor gets her big chance to do investigative journalism, and goes undercover at a local high school. Her own experience with high school had been traumatic, and she basically has to go through the whole thing again.
The movie shows the cruelty of the "in" crowd and portrayed the "untouchables" as nice people who happen to have different interests.
It brought out plenty of painful memories from my own past.
Hmm, i am not a coward i just dont feel like creating an account here.
Define grow up. Many people are mentally "grown up" without being fully adults yet.
Hmm, i am not a coward i just dont feel like creating an account here.
Who said black trenchcoats, jeans and a t-shirt isn't comfortable. And don't call Ludwig Van crap.
>What we need to understand is that the jocks, preps, and wacko administration kiss-asses do not go away once high school is over.
But they do change. They grow up. They mature. Their values change. They are not the same at 32 as they were at 18. Neither are the geeks.
People change. This is a fact of life.
>In case anyone hasn't figured it out, high school is a training ground for the workforce.
Wrong. It isn't on many levels.
1. There are no "grading levels" in the real world. (e.g A, B, C, etc) Only pass or fail.
2. You have a choice, at any time, to leave. Leave your job. Leave your relationship. Leave the country if it come it. If you don't like something you are not forced to face it every weekday.
But many teens in school don't have that choice. At least they feel that they don't.
3. In the real world, money is the major criteria of someone's worth. Not your looks, social skills or hobbies.
Highschool is not the real world. The real world is much fairer.
High school was a living hell for me. Only my Atheism saved me from suicide. Every day I became more and more detached from the people around me, and hating the world. I didn't realize that that not everyone was so cruel. A college professor friend of my parents told us about a school that would be different, would help me. It was Simon's Rock College of Bard. (http://www.simons-rock.edu). You leave high school and get high school and college credit at the same time. It is a small private school in the woods of western massachusetts, with a very strong program in the arts. I went there for philosopy. For the first time in my life I felt at home. I was challeged by the work, accepted by the students, and fell in love for the first time. The school is not cheap, but they have really good scholarships and financial aid. I beg any of you who are in the same situation as I was to check out Simon's Rock. I think it saved my life. It didn't solve all my problems, but I realized I wasn't alone for the first time, and that was the glimmer of hope that I needed.
Its been years since I was there, I understand that there's also a pretty good computer science program there now.
I should mention that the school is not without its own tragedy: A deranged korean skinhead went nuts with an SKS, killing a professor and student, wounding a securiyt guard and other students before his gun jammed and he surrendered to police. In spite of this trajedy, the school remains one of the few safe havens for freaks, geeks, goths, geeks, punks, gays, and other assorted 'Outsiders'.
"clearly I remember...picking on the boy...seemed a harmless little fuck...but we unleashed a lion"
(Pearl Jam's Jeremy)
This song came out around 1991 (and I've heard it was based on an actual event). This means here it is 1999 and nothing has changed. While the media shows very deeply saddened people march around the town of Littleton (*sarcasm*) nothing is changing. I hate to say it, but we are giving this more thought and answers than anyone in Littleton. Its just a media circus with everyone and their dog wanting attention. History will have to repeat itself again (and again, and again) until people stop thinking inside their box they are stuck in.
Yesterday I watched a show where people thought about "what if Eric and Dylan were alive still". Everyone was saying they wanted them dead. Isn't it somewhat ironic that the same people who don't want to see football players, etc. get killed are the same ones who want goths/nerds to die? What if these were football players who went on a rampage after losing a game? Or a cheerleader stood them up and they got angry? I don't think the media would look at it the same. Nor do I think people would want to give them the death penalty. I bet I would even see people defend the football players. "That game meant a lot to them.. it was too much pressure for anyone". Nerds == bad && football_players == good. That is the "American Way" in one line.
The concept of branding an entire culture as "dangerous" and "strange" is completely abhorrent. Something really needs to be done to prevent the trend of stereotyping such a large population as the "goths" or the "nerds". In my opinion, nobody's mind will be changed by simply arguing or shouting at somebody who has fallen victim to the generalizations that the media has injected into their (or even OUR) minds. If you (as a student) think a computer game team or club would be helpful, start one! I'd imagine that such a club would prove to be an extreme shock to any teacher or other observer because its members would be getting together, having a GREAT time, and most importantly would NOT be killing each other.
No stereotype will ever dissolve as a result of talk. Somehow, somebody has to give a REASON for the people who believe in it to put it behind them.
Yes, high school was hell. No, I didn't fit in. Frankly, I am glad that I didn't. Conformity is not what I am interested in, thank you very much. I could care less what they thought at the time, and less so now. The fact that I wanted to see my oppressors dead at my feat was no indication that I had the motivation to follow-through. I knew what I hated them for, and would never stoop to their misanthropic level even for a moment.
The media has blown an irrational act of violence into something entirely different. Death count: 12 students, 1 teacher and 2 murderes. In analysis, statistically insignificant. Why does the media chose to recycle and regurgitate it ad naseum? To keep the eyeball of America glued to the channel (the ultimate sticky app). Compared to the violence going on in major cities, this is just a drop in the bucket. Why does Joe and Jane American express shock at this massacre?
Partly because of the suburban factor. If it was another inner-city, crack-dealing, gang-banger drive-by, it would be buried in the back-pages.
Why not face the facts that American culture has become awash in violence? If they wanted to stop it, the "right" to bear arms would have been abolished years ago. It doesn't take a genius to realize that easy access to firearms is a significant problem.
It's unfortunate that a crop of students had to die violent deaths, but in a culture that edifies violence, should such senseless acts be so surprising? I am frankly amazed that it doesn't happen more often.
Somewhere, somehow, there has been a breakdown in logic. Your clothing, music styles and recreational activities will not be the decisive factor in whether or not you decide to go on a killing spree. Then again, the folks that go into education generally are not rocket scientists. Banning certain clothing styles, music and make-up will not abate social persecution in the school system. "Gosh, Little Johnny looked like everyone else, listened to the same music, played the same sports, so why did he use a flamethrower to kill the track and field team?" Partly because they taunted him, made him feel isolated, and the administrators did nothing to stop them, that's why.
I can look back now and realize how fortunate I was to escape that environment for a far healthier one. I cannot help but feel smugly about the fact that I have half of my morgage paid off, when those who tormented me worry about their next
paycheck. The best revenge is success.
...which I don't remember precisely, but the gist was that in childhood we tend to be very idealistic, pure, and good.
Then we realize that it's childish to be so cheery and optimistic and that it's more mature, cool, or whatever to be cynical, gloomy, and morbid, in the process ridiculing our childhood values.
Then we realize that the morbid cynicism is also childish and we get over it and get on with our real lives.
I meant to say "did short circuit" not "didn't."
argh.
In a wired-offshoot site called suck.com, often cynical, but right on about a lot of things, today's article discusses the media discussing the media discussing the shooting (or something like that) and mentions Jon Katz's "flow of consciousness" articles with a link to slashdot. (and I guess this post is /(a discussion about )+the shooting/)
One of these kids was on Luvox, a Prozac/Zoloft type drug. It's in the same class as Ritalin, it's a dopamine reuptake inhibitor. Dopamine reuptake inhibitors are available on the street, they are powder and crack coccaine. These drugs drive people mad. Their feelings have nothing to do with what they did.
Benzedrine and Dexedrine are also handed out like penny candy. That's speed. Us hippies had a slogan - Speed Kills. In the 40s this stuff was given to bored housewives and triggered a surge of murders. At least then, psycho-therapists could figure out what was going on.
Katz, you're trying to explain drug induced madness. Forget it, you're wasting bandwidth.
Here's a better topic. My neighbor just bought a 366 Celeron. The board is set at 66 Mhz. What if she overclocked it to 400 Mhz and set it to 100 Mhz? Would it result in a big enough speed increase for the effort. Should one always try the oc that increases bus speed, or are these oc the ones you shouldn't try?
Rediculous! The term "goth" is used to refer to people who wear black clothes, wear white makeup, etc. If they didn't act out their ostracism through these forms of expression then they wouldn't be labelled this way by the rest of society.
No, the only reason they do it is SPECIFICALLY so that they are different from everyone else. The resulting "ostracism" as you so eloquently put it, while not necesarily very nice on the part of the "normal" majority, is nonetheless to be expected.
My asseriton remains. Making "oddballs" culturally acceptable at any one point in time will only change the definition of an "oddball" so that the exact same situation develops again.
>teachers who are getting paid next to nothing
or, in my area, are the 3rd highest paid profession (behind doctors and lawyers, with lawyers only being *slightly* ahead.) Teachers start at $30k/year with a BS/BA (they are *not* required to have a masters, although they are required to do 3 years of teaching and complete 24 credits as a master's degree granting institution, but the credits do not have to be toward a master's, all this within 6 years of obtaining their initial cert to get a perminant one, then no further requirements.) Most teachers go on for doctorates, etc, because the system guarentees pay increases (so a starting teacher w/ a master's would make more than $30k/year.) This is as per the regs in effect in 1993, and I haven't heard any protests from the teacher's unions about attempts to increase the requirements at all (except for the change to the tenure law where they may now be fired for conviction of a felony.)
The average starting salary for a person with a BS/BA in the area is $15-$20k/year. There have been full-time jobs (positions like secretary, etc) at major bank corps where they wanted to pay less than $10k/yearUSD and only 10 days/year vacation. That translates to less than $4.67/hour. The same place wanted to pay programmers (requiring extensive experience in a couple languages - 5+ years) $16-$18k/year.
Note also:
Are there any queers in the theater tonight?
Get them up against the wall!
and
I'm leaving you today... => suicide letter
In perfect isolation here behind my wall => being outcast
Your lips move but I can't hear what you're saying
=> Not being listened too.
When I was a child I had a fever
My hands felt just like two balloons
Now I've got that feeling once again
=> Many of us are no longer in highschool, and have managed by now to get a more or less normal life, and have forgotten what we had to endure. But these stories bring back that feeling once again
Sure, lots of people other than nerds are abused. Far worse things are happening out there. But that isn't on topic. If you don't think nerds are more important than the herded masses, I have to wonder why you're using our forum.
This is going to sound cruel, but it's still true. Better 250,000,000 citizens than 250,000,015 slaves. Don't unleash fascism over one small-scale disaster.
I'm guessing we feel it sucks, but since they generally aren't nerds, it's Not Our Problem.
I suggest they move to Greenland.
I do not believe that Katz posts his stories for "enhancing his journalistic career". Actually, I think that by taking a position so far away from the mainstream, he actually put his career at risk. Indeed, his journalistic peers might accuse him of being a "nutcase who sympathizes with murderers".
It takes up a significant amount of courage (and also time!) to compile these articles, and I admire him for that. We as geeks should be thankful that he attracted the public's attention to this issue which has gone ignored for too long
Like all generalizations (ha ha, "all", get it?
What grabs us isn't so much the horror of the particular acts that were committed. It's the fact that we have suddenly stumbled into a different reality, a parallel universe, where we don't know the rules any more.
For some people, I think the horror is almost irrelevant.
There are people for whom the "rules we know" have lost all their appeal, or never had any. For some people, the alternate reality of a delusional system, however grim and threatening it may be, seems better than the same old dull hopeless grind year after year. At least it gives them a specific, named enemy to fight against. The real enemy is reality, but you can't shoot reality. All you can do is reject it. That's probably what happened to those two stupid kids who shot everybody. To get there you have to have some faulty wiring between the ears, of course.
There are other people whose circuits aren't burned out badly enough to reject reality single-handedly, but who get a bit of a kick whenever the consensus reality does a flip-flop like this. How much of our fascination is horror, and how much is enthusiasm? How many of us really wanted cold fusion to work, not because we needed more electricity but because it was weird? Why is everybody so excited about Linux? This is something like what Robert Anton Wilson said in the Illuminatus! novels about neophiles and neophobes, but my explanation looks a lot more grim. Wilson didn't put any moral spin on it, though. IIRC his "good guys" and "bad guys" were neither entirely good nor entirely bad, nor was it clear which was which, and all of them were neophiles anyway. The neophiles acted and the neophobes reacted, or they just sat there and got clobbered, or (mostly) they were unaware of any conflict at all. The starring role that paranoia had in Wilson's books is open to interpretation.
Maybe this what "nerds" are: "Neophiles". People without an important investment in the consensus reality. People, in other words, who like SF (esp. movies, where the illusion is most complete), who are often drawn to relatively extreme political philosophies, who often tend to be creative (what is imagination but paranoia writ small, eh?), who switch to FreeBSD when Linux becomes popular (or from Perl to Python), who are excited by change. And why do we tend to have so little investment in the consensus reality? Well, gee, read the posts in this discussion . . . The ones who don't crack are the ones who are resilient enough to broker a compromise somewhere between blind acceptance and blind madness.
- Set up a second site, running the same software as Slashdot, which contains the actual Katz stories and comments
- On the real Slashdot, put just the headers, and link to "Katzdot".
That way, the issue still gets the exposure it deserves, but it doesn't slow down Slashdot for the other stories. Now, who is going to provide the Katzdot site? Easy: there have been several "geekrights" sites that have sprung up in the aftermath of this. Unfortunately, being relatively unknown, they do not get much exposure. Would it be possible to convert one of those boxes to a "Katzdot"?"On the turning away" isn't really pink floyd, since it is from the post Waters period...
Waters? Oh, yeah, the bass player. He wrote some miserable song that should've been left off Piper at the Gates of Dawn. He had no business writing songs, but at least he was an okay bass player. Nothing wonderful, but he was okay. Did they ever get rid of him? Not that it matters. That guy was right up there with Dave Alexander and Pete Best. "Currently residing in the where-are-they-now file . .
I've heard that after Pink Floyd broke up in 1969 or thereabouts, the sidemen got some new guy to play guitar and they continued on for a while, but AFAIK they never really amounted to much. Did they really have the gall to use the name, though? If so, that's depressing.
Well adjusted in his perfect, cocky self-consciousness, not in relation to some kind of social idea espoused by either the mainstream or his peers in the literary underground. The quality of his treatment of both individual and social psychological processes is the reason I enjoy Burroughs' work, while such themes as insanity or death never quite seemed to be the main focus of the his effort. Really, my surprise at seeing WSB mentioned in the article stemmed mostly from the apparent aversion the author had toward mysticism or facile spirituality.
:)
And yes, there's no denying my contempt for victims of silly pop culture phenomena such as goths, punks or hippies.
AC
This guy has it right on. I endured weekly
slapping arounda all through jr. high and most of my freshman year. Sophmore year I grew and those
folks didn't mess with me as much. Started
working out junior year and was in decent shape
by senior (plus all the buddies I made in the
weight room, you dont have to be huge, just hard
working). Wore my funny jacket and weird clothes
all the time and focused on my studies. Went to
college, stuck with it and did well, and got a
good job.
Now I go home to visit, plus news from my high
school reunion, and this is what I heard:
Of the guys who messed with me, one blew his
head off in a firearm accident, two are low paid
construction workers, one works for Bosten Market
(snigger), another is a manager at a Radio Shack,
another a manager at a hardware store.
Saw two of the "popular" gals. Both were fat and
one had two kids, the other four. They were still
snotty, but with their looks gone and money
dwindling, were just plain rejects themselves.
Of us weird guys and "nerds", two are Intellectual
property lawyers, three started their own niche software companies, company, four have MBA's, and
one dentist. The list goes on and on.
Almost all of the "nerd" I knew and associated
with made it good and are happy. Very few of the
others accomplshied as much.
Stick with it folks, its funnier in the end.
Right on. This article by Katz sux.
Everybody goes through the teenage years. If you don't come out ok on the other side it's b/c you're weak. Katz is part of the whole "let's blame society" gang. People should start taking a little responsibility for their actions.
Stop buying guns. 270 million people and 200+ million guns. No sale.
Buy games, not guns.
I guess some like myself never really "fit in". I never really got into wearing all the garb of the various groups (goth or punk) although at heart I always felt a part of that culture. The strange thing about that (at least where I live) is, not wearing the uniform of the culture you fall in to, kind of makes you an outcast among outcasts. It actually came up in conversation today with someone... why I choose to be different. My response was, I don't choose to be different, I choose to be myself. That is something that I hope will never change. My identity is the only thing I feel is truely mine.
-GruvSycosis (30)
Did I read that PS correctly?
After the Sherrif's dept humiliated the kid by searching his home for guns/bombs/etc and found nothing, the Police dept is now starting their own investigations of RUMORS that the deputies had seen guns and bombs.
1. Dontcha think that the deputies would've arrested him if they found something illegal??
2. If they're hearing rumors regarding something the deputies saw, why doesn't the PD just CALL the SD and ask them about it???
Yeesh. This kid should sue.
I came back for info about oc.
I am a biochemist who has 20 years of experience researching psychiatric medication. The nation went through the same thing with Valium.
Remember Kitty Dukakis? She was prescribed tranquillizers for anxiety, and then given amphetimines for the "slows." For these people, alcohol is highly, acutely toxic, yet she was laughed at for not being able to handle even one highball. Even though I didn't vote for her husband, I felt pity for this poor soul caught in the classic whipsaw addiction, one that is unbreakable. And no, her feelings don't govern her life any more, just her need for these prescription chemicals.
Nerd topic warning: Asio, the internal police organization in Australia, wants blanket authority to spy on every computer that goes online. They want lines into every ISP to cruise the drives and files of all of us "Internetters." Why? The Olympics are coming, and security is a concern.
Let's destroy the Big Brother's control about our mind and their puny attempts at destroying anarchy.
Why should anyone wish someone to death? All I was saying was that if they were not "goths" the media would put them in a different light possibly. Do you think there would be a witchhunt for jocks? I don't see it happening.
Geez. Calm down you fucking idiot. I'm not trying to start flames. I just said my opinion and you took it the wrong way.
This is getting too depressing. See http://www.dansdata.com/psycho.htm for a more lighthearted take on the subject.
and let them sort it out.
School sucks and America sucks. Nothing will change since everyone has ego problems and no one can take blame themselves. Just quit ranting on. The first article I was with you, the 2nd yea, but this is ridiculous. Nothing will change since no one wants change. Americans want restrictions, not reform. The media is anything but a reliable news source. Everyone is afraid of the effect, but can not handle the cause.
Oprah had a show on today about how boys in America are "lost" whatever that means. I didn't actually see the show, but it sounds like the same kind of stuff the rest of the media is saying. Did anyone see this show? She also is going to have a show on tomorrow about the victims. Maybe she is going to have a whole series on this. Anyway, she has an e-mail form at www.oprah.com. Maybe some of the stories that were sent to Katz should be sent to her. Make sure that the mainstream media hears all sides of the story.
True, but although Gilmore is an ok guitarist, he SUCKS as a vocalist. I don't think that anybody would disagree that Pink Floyd's greatest work was created while Waters was still an active member. Some of my friends still think their best work was while Sid Barett was still a member, but I disagree. Dark Side is still one of the greatest albums of all time.
As a few have mentioned goths are just another clique. What you say is true, but these aren't the outsiders, the goths are typically very uninteresting people, as are the jocks, or the preps or any other group. The true outsiders is outside of all of that, actually this trenchcoat mafia seems to me a bunch of whinny suburb kids that didn't get enough attention and/or love from the parents. Which is a problem as well, but I ain't them and they ain't me.
They aren't geeks, maybe dorks, or misguided, I mean really they had records and were on probation or something. I know many geeks and none have criminal records. Also no geek would ever kill themselves?
This despite the vocal protests and legal attempts by Waters to get them to cease and desist...
I dropped out of school as soon as I got 18, which is the legal age you don't have to school anymore in the country I live in.
;-).
My English might not be good; it isn't my 'native tongue', but my IQ is allmost high enough to join mensa (found this out only recently, was actually a surprise to me), and my job and salary high enough to make 99% of the people who were the reason I left school (students as well as teachers) jealous (although I don't give a shit about money, it's only a tool to enable me to do what I want to do).
I'm not going to tell you the story of my live, but I'm an individual, always been, always will be. I think for myself, make my own decisions, decide for myself what's right and what's not, what's important for me, what I want from life, no matter what the majority of the people (or should I say sheep) thinks about it, or if it's regarded as 'normal' or not.
I don't have the desire (anymore) to conform to anything, anyone or any group of people. I've got many friends, all different kinds of people from different races doing a multitude of different jobs (or not doing any job at all)... even drug addicts and local politicians (don't know which ones are worst
I'm generally regarded as being a nice and friendly guy, I even had people calling me 'good' and 'unselfish', so go figure (and they weren't drunk at the time). I don't give anyone shit and have a deep respect for any living being.
BUT (and now comes the but)... I had times when I still went to school that I was just so fed up with it all (not to mention school itself where they waste your time teaching you what consists of 80% useless crap that 95% of the students will have forgotten within a year, for me it was just a waste of time), that if I'd had a gun back then, I would have probably used it. And if I hadn't used it on myself, I'm pretty sure I would have used it on some teachers first.
When your 'fellow' students give you shit and make your life miserable it's one thing, it sucks bad, especially if you're a teen, but if some teachers start picking on you too, day after day, week after week, then you know you got to get out of there or something bad will happen to yourself or to others sooner or later.
If it hadn't been for those few good friends I made back then (some of whom I still regulary meet with) and those few teachers who understood my individualism and different view on life (although to me I've got a quite 'normal' and logical view on life), I would probably have cracked before I dropped out (and although it was the best thing for me to do at that time, I still sometimes get the feeling it's one of the few challenges I lost).
I just want to express my support to the people who are going through this right now. Don't crack up, they aren't worth it. They are scum, and you know it but they don't. Dare to be different, accept that you're different, grab this oppurtunity to look at 'society' from another angle, try to step out of it, dissect it, and eventually you'll see that it's just fucking hilarious bunch of wankers keeping eachother busy with making eachother unhappy and dissatisfied.
It's like a giant RPG where you'll eventually understand all the rules while they won't even know they're in it.
Just my 2 cents as you Americans say...
Right... and terrorists are not only known for their technical savvy in using computers for all of their terrorist planning, but also for their mind-numbing stupidity in leaving all these plans UNENCRYPTED on their hard drives and while sending them over the 'net...
But seriously, any digital spying is only going to catch bumbling amatuers; real criminals would hardly be effected.
Just my 2/100 of a dollar...
ust because a good writer said it, doesn't make it true. Heinlein also, at various times, alternately condenmed
democracy ("zero times a million still equals zero") and celebrated it.
De Touqueville, read it. Debate the real facts of democracy, not some fiction writers rehashed ideas of another.
[In case anyone hasn't figured it out, high school is a training ground for the workforce. All the necessary skills of obedience, blind acceptance, kissing butt, the willingness to sacrifice 66% of your day to mind-numbing and pointless work or sleep --- these are the "job skills" that need to be learned by the innately free-willed human being to fit into our mechanical capitalist hell.]
This may be so, but you need to remember a powerful difference between a hellish workplace and a hellish school environment: You can always quit your job and work somewhere else. You can't quit your school and go to school somewhere else. If I could have, I'd have done it.
--TC
About the uniforms: I would never ever have gone to a school that made you wear a uniform. It's not a solution to the problem. If someone wants to dress differently, why shouldn't he or she be allowed to do so ?
Besides that, uniforms make me think about the military too much.
About being bored and that being a bad habit when you enter the 'work environment': I was bored in school all the time, having to listen to stuff I allready knew or could have learned by myself in a fraction of the time (hey students... compare the time you spent in school to what you actually learned during that day, then think about the other things you could have done with the rest of the time if you learned it by yourself... don't get depressed, it's only your time and life being wasted there). Since I started working I can honestly say I'm only bored a few times a YEAR, and it usually even comes as a surprise to me ('gee... that's what it felt like being at school').
I dropped out when I was 18 (haven't looked back ever since, wasn't easy, but probably one of the best moves I made in my life, 10 years older now and if I was 18 I'd do it again).
I know what it is like to feel completely and utterly alone. I understand, but it doesn't mean that I tolerate it. I admit, I conformed to their standards. Not because I like it, or because I liked sports, or the adolecent acholics who run the joint, I did it out of survival. Now I do things because I want to. I wear black, and do anything I want to do. I argue with the office at school,I get loud when I'm angry, and I stand up for what is right. Now I have friends who know who I am, that being different is better, because when those idiots are flexing their muscles pumping gas, you and I will be in another world, where people speak in coherent sentances, and respect everyone of all types. Until Then? Breathe!!!
I personally don't think that "playing the game" solves much, if any at all. If you are being ridiculed for being different, the way you fight back is to become one of them?
I have been ridiculed and beaten up in junior high and senior high school for being a geek: for loving computers, for enjoying programming, for spending time being creative. I have doggedly stuck to my guns (figuratively speaking), and now I'm doing what I enjoy because there's a need of my skills. If I were to toss away what I wanted and try to change things through management, I'd have to end up using an Etch-a-sketch to lead the way.
CNN CAN FIND MIDDLE AMERICA IN STRANGEST PLACES
Ellen Warren & Teresa Wiltz
April 29, 1999
We wondered why CNN's Thursday special--liltingly logo'd "Listening After Littleton"--was being broadcast from "the Middle-American community of Champaign-Urbana." The place has many charms but being typically mid-American is not one of them. How many typical mid-American cities are the home of a Big 10 university?
We now can report that the reason CNN's Town Hall meeting is broadcasting from there is that CNN-U.S. President Rick Kaplan is spending a week teaching at his alma mater. Which is, by sheer coincidence, mind you . . . the University of Illinois.
the vocal protests and legal attempts by Waters to get them to cease and desist...
. . . which are absurd, given the Syd Barrett situation. If Waters can appoint himself leader of Syd's band, Gilmour can do the same. IIRC Gilmour was a friend of Syd from way back, and showed up a lot more on Syd's solo records. If I weren't too lazy to walk across the room and check my facts, I might wonder aloud if Waters ever worked with Syd at all after the breakup. Um, no, I think he does turn up somewhere.
No band without Syd Barrett is Pink Floyd. The Rolling Stones have as much right to call themselves Pink Floyd as Waters does, or Gilmour, or for that matter Henry Kissinger. If Waters has a case against Gilmour, then Waters himself never had any right to use the name either.
Who cares anyway, we all know who's on which record, just listen to the ones you like. I don't like the Waters records or the Gilmour records. They sound pretty much alike to me, allowing adjustments for age, obsolescence, and changes in the marketplace. So, I don't listen to those. It's a free country. Everybody's happy. (Except of course for Waters, but he's a miserable fuck anyhow.
I've come to the conclusion that if I post further down in this forum, the chances of my post actually being read by somebody will decrease exponentially proportional to my message's distance from the top of the forum. Therefor, I have decided to reply to the previous post with something that is almost entirely unrelated to the previous post.
After reading approximately half of the posts, I have come to the realization that nerds aren't really minorities in an oppressive sense. Everyone, even 'jocks', feel oppression at some point in their lives; they just experience it to verying degrees.
My perspective is probably quite different from the vast majority of people in the world. I could be construed as a 'nerd' in almost every sense of the word, but I could also be construed as a 'jock' as well. Are the aspects and natures of nerds and jocks mutually exclusive? If so, it is not readily apparent to me. In fact, I find that there are many similarities between jocks and nerds, with the largest differences manifested in terms of personal style and tastes.
Based on my experiences and the experiences related to me by others, jocks and nerds are both intensely competitive, with varying degrees of motivation. Contrary to popular opinion, it takes a great deal of intelligence, relevant to the particular sport, to be a good player in sports. Likewise, it takes a great deal of intelligence, relevant to a particular game, to be a good player in a game. It is also true that certain physical strengths and capabilities can overcome some deficiencies in skill and technique no matter what sport or game you play; although, for a strategy game like chess, you would have to argue for more abstract physical capabilites that relate to the mind.
Being an athelete and a computer/music/art nerd-type person, I have experienced abuse from all sides of the spectrum. Many of my coaches believed that I had a future in professional sports, but I became disillusioned with team sports when it became less about having fun and working together as a team, and more about being better than everyone else and seeking glory for one's self. It got to the point where I started hating my @sshole teamates. I don't particularly like experiencing the emotion of 'hate', and consequently, I quit all team sports.
Likewise, I became disillusioned with other aspects of my public education experience. Computers are nothing more than glorifed toys. Art and music are just mediums for self-gratification. School is more of a nursery than an institute of higher-learning. There are just as many @ssholes in science and art as there are in sports. Raise your internet-masturbation hand if you know what I'm talking about?
I have been physically and emotionally assaulted by all sorts of people throughout my life and childhood: tall, short, skinny, fat, pretty, ugly, male, female, jock, nerd, black, white, etc. But for as many instances there are of people hurting me, whether physical and emotional, there are at least a hundred times as many instances of people treating me with kindess if not respect.
I know this post isn't really as coherent as I would like it to be, I'm not even sure what exactly my point is, I guess I just figured that I'd add another perspective to the overwhelming amount of perspectives already out there.
My take on the shooting: there were definately reasons for killing all those people, albeit, none of those reasons were justifiable or understandable. Sometimes people do stupid things for stupid reasons (actually, MOST of the time people do stupid things for stupid reasons, but that view is too cynical for me to express with utmost conviction; hence, the 'Sometimes').
We could arrange a day or even a hour of absolute 0 net activity to show I support for sweeping changes in the school system.
So here is my suggestion on Friday the 7th of may nobody get on line for any reason (or if you can shut down a ISP so that people couldn't get on if they wanted to.) Have businesses help (for some reason I don't think that amazon.com would like this idea ) by not having employees send e-mail for a day. take you pages offline for 24 hours. Just imagine how much help we would get from the porn industry if we just agree to get back on line
if any one has the address for the Raincoat Mafia
post it i cant find it but it is Funny as hell, its like a master card commercial (one of those some things money cant buy but for every thing else use master card) but its for a school killing spree
And that's all there is to say about it.
the cult of the dead cow
I don't know how many people will agree with me here, but I will just go ahead.
I am currently a student in high school. I have had some experiences similar to the ones described here. For a few months several years ago, I *was* physically assaulted on a daily basis. It never extended so far as being beaten up, but just barely. It very painful for me and I consider it the worst time of my life. But that is not what I want to focus on. My parents, though often misguided, do care about me a lot and put me in a better school. "Better" is a relative term. I have much more freedom to learn, and there are a lot of smart people. But I've still been pretty miserable.
I don't wear different clothing or do a lot of things to look different, but nor do I try hard to fit in -- I just want to be myself. I figure if someone can't accept me for who I am, I don't want to know that person too well. While I still believe in this attitude, I must say it has not worked for me, at all. Because of it I have not had a single friend closeby, in real life, for almost five years. I used to think it was because I must be a pretty boring or worthless person, but I know better now.
You might think I've just not been trying to make friends, and there is some truth in that. When you get rejected so many times and it hurts so much, it can be hard to keep trying. I do keep trying as much as I can bear. But every single day the message is sent to me that I am not normal, that I should speak less, that I should ask less questions... it takes a very strong person to deal with that every day and not have it affect him. I am not that strong. I am strong enough that I won't change myself just to be accepted by other people, but not much more.
I consider this to be one of my good points as well as bad points. It makes me weak in a way, but also makes me want to help other people, to do things for them just because knowing that I made them feel better is enough for me. I am not trying to gloat, this is just the truth... I know people, over the net, who tell me I am the only one they can trust... people who say I have saved their life... people who say that finding me was one of the best things that ever happened to them. These are the same people who *I* really trust and who give me strength.
You can blame me all you want for whining because I have not been through much "physical assault". But I think something is not being said in all these posts. I think many people who are not hurt physically, but who are simply excluded and hurt emotionally, are very good people who can contribute a lot and who deserve a lot better. You can attack them all you want for being weak, but their other qualities ought to be enough to make up for it. They need to be encouraged, not blamed. It is simply cruel to beat someone into the ground day after day and then blame them when they don't have the strength to get up.
Screw 'em. Like they're any more goddamn ironic and smirkingly full of themselves than I am. Sure.
Five years ago, John Perry Barlow wrote a very nice essay about the way various authority figures keep the "wierdos" out of power. Dad's Invisible Guard-All Shield says a lot about the use of cultural filters to enforce uniformity in positions of authority.
I highly recommend it.
What always amazes me is how many people there are who have a completely different concept of reality than I do, and yet still seem to be able to function in the same world. Is there really an objective reality? Or is this other person's blindness to the world I live in caused by the fact that they actually live in a different one?
Amused to death.
Yes, our culture is amused to death. The quotes of the "statistics" show it to be true. 82% said the "Internet was the cause..." blah blah. Who were these people who were polled? What type of "scientific" process was used in the poll?
I suppose that none of that matters anyhow. I *knew* this was coming as soon as the word spread that there was a "massacre" at some school, etc... I knew it would be on every front page, every back page, every sleazy tele-magazine-multimedia-side-show in the world.
The media loves it. The people love it. They eat it up and swallow it whole.
Our "facts" come to the majority of the population through a faceless media giant -- a filter, if you will -- that tells you THEIR opinion. Needless to say, most people don't bother to think or question anything. No, they would rather be told what to think by some grinning Dan Rather sleazeball.
Right now, the government is in an all-out war against its own people. It was described by political philosopher named Weber to control the people: create a panic over a situation, use the media to pound fear into peoples' heads and make them cry out for "more laws". Ultimately, that is what happens.
And now, and in color:
The government can simply bust into your home if you wear a trenchcoat to school, or if you dress in black.
Or if you think for yourself.
Welcome to America -- where you're free to do as you're told.
--Michael Maxwell: http://www.xnet.com/~drwho/
>>This despite the vocal protests and legal attempts by Waters to get them to cease and desist
That's OK. Waters is doing his own thing now, and it seems it's for the better. Those who know Pink Floyd from the Waters era will realise that the new Floyd is just a "surrogate band", so to speak.
Besides, Waters is going on tour this summer and next summer through the U.S. I'll be attending AT LEAST ONE (hopefully more) of his shows.
I initially agreed with you...
Then I read the other posts. Then I thought...
Let's transcend briefly to another set of groups. Imagine we are black men in a predominantly white town. It's night. We're walking along the street and everyone is afraid of us. Eventually we get stopped by the police and otherwise harassed because we look suspicious. Why? Well, maybe there was a news story the other day where a black man killed some rich white family. Or maybe there was nothing at all, maybe the people just assumed if we're black, we must be gangsters.
I imagine the above scenario is somewhat appalling to most. People should realize that being black doesn't make a person bad. The killer in my hypothetical news story could just as easily have been white. And there are plenty of gangsters in any other group or race you can name.
The point is, these people are reacting based solely on preconceived stereotypes. Otherwise known as prejudice.
If it were possible to easily change skin color, would you ask all blacks of the world to please change their skin color to white so we don't have to be afraid of them? I hope not. But why, then, do you ask the "oddballs" (for lack of a better term) to leave their trenchcoats at home?
Sadly it is true, there have been copycat killings. There is a lot of rage in the world, and some of these young people appear to have lost control. In their rage, they have seen stories of the Littleton incedent, and what they thought they saw was a solution. And so they proceeded with their "solution". Some have even worn trenchcoats. But why is it that we now assume everyone wearing a trenchcoat is a killer? How many have worn trenchcoats and NOT killed? Have you worn a trenchcoat? Have I? I assure you, I am no more likely to kill with a trenchcoat, than without.
The solution isn't to rid the world of trenchcoats. Nor is it to stop playing Doom. I firmly believe that the closest we can come to a solution to this type of incident is compasion, understanding, and acceptance.
No it won't stop all the violence, but it will likely reduce it.
Whatever the answer, fear is not likely an ingredient.
--DW
glad it worked out... otherwise i would have had to ask where in central illinois... (i have a decent ammount of friends in the administration of peoria's district 150) and i'm still interested in what that district in particular is doing in reaction to the issues at hand...
-hangman@imsa.edu
(too lazy to log in)
Respect no authority
but the commandments of your morals,
Follow no code
but the precepts of honor,
Exact no justice
but that of self-responsibility.
-Jaac
Yeah, but many more think they are "grown up", but they don't realize they aren't until they actually grow up. To some extent everyone has that problem, no matter what the age, because you can always become more enlightened then you currently are.
Is this a joke? I sure hope so.. Sounds like it was written by someone who never matured out of high school..
Hey there. I'm just gonna mention that i dislike seeing Goths mislabelled. They keep referring to Goths as those little marilyn manson fans. That's really not it. I'm friends with some real goths in LA, and they laugh at all the Goth-wannabes. Really, it's giving the Goth's a bad image, coz they don't really sit around brooding and whining about life all the time. Really, they're more or less a darker dressing raver culture.
;)
Okay, enough for my rant.
later.
Maybe that's because we're both geeks?
Or maybe it just explains why we're different than everyone else.
--"the Dreaded Rear Admiral!"
I am a parent of young kids in Australia. Here things are very different and we have a culturally more accepting population, but young people always worry older people no matter what the trends or crazes are. I think labelling and hating people for what they are won't help the situation. Not on either side. I am happy to say in my experience that the "old boys club" is not as elite as it seems and if you are motivated by a good goal you can succeed in anything you try. You only have to read some of the other articles to see that you young people have a lot of good in you so don't waste it by abusing others who aren't worth being bothered by. I mean this to be supportive, as we are pretty upset at attitiudes that seem to be emerging in the American population.
As someone who is experiencing difficulties at a time when some support could be the difference to you, how do you think that others in your community could help? Is there any assistance from church groups, local youth groups, clubs, or even community counsellors? Is there a youth phone line to talk to when something seems temporarily insurmountable. How do you think the community could evolve systems to help anybody that needs it and has noone to go to. And do teachers really not know what their students are like, and what sort of things might be going through their minds that they can't give a bit of encouragement now and then? What are your thoughts?
As a parent I am absolutely heart broken to hear that not only is this happening, but it is ignored, and in my opinion is almost as good as condoned, by teachers (and parents). It seems ridiculous that anyone can stand by and allow bullying(which is bad enough) to get the point of strong physical violence. I wish I could offer help, but instead, I can only hope and pray that some solution can be found to such a widespread problem. I know if it happened to my kid, it would never happen more than once.
There is a fallacy here. "Oh, teenagers are generally pretty cruel, deal with it." Why should there be the cruelty anyway? Okay, I accept that it's natural to have the oppressors (jocks) and the oppressed (nerds), but that doesn't mean it's RIGHT and that there isn't anything a society can do about that.
Saying to a kid, "you can either whine about it or deal with it rationally" can actually push him (or her, i guess) over the edge and make them go on a little spree like the one in Colorado. And don't even tell me a MAJORITY of those persecuted kids has the ability to "react rationally." Did YOU, as a freshman or even sophomore in high school, have the wisdom and capacity to reason as you do now, typing in the comfort of your home or surrounded by friendly colleagues, instead of the oppressive, prison-like environment these "losers" are in? Please.
"Not normal," "different," and "rejected" are terms heard here that imply a person who is probably a computer geek who has to suffer through what seems like an oppressive American school system, so that's what I'm going to assume is your position.
Now, when you say you are rejected and haven't had a single close friend, you probably know the reason. Most of the people here who chose geeky hobbies when they were young and in school probably know why also. The reasons for the rejection is pretty obvious in these situations. You can probably sense that those people who rejected you were people who don't understand why you don't do the stupid stuff they do. Then, it becomes apparent that they themselves are the losers. This implies that it's good that you don't have a single friend among these losers.
If this is the case, you will be happy if and when you get to college, where people at least start to appreciate intelligence, (TRUE) maturity, and academic achievement, and glad that you didn't bring yourself down to the level of "everyone else."
I'm sure it's a joke, but just in case it's not, it's good to bear in mind that one doesn't have to be mature to handle dangerous substances, or to release them in densely populated areas.
I used to plan to destroy the world, but those feelings die down when you've reached the point that you find you're in a higher income bracket than those who used to browbeat you in your youth.
The predators prey on those they perceive to be the weakest...if they don't sense weakness, they'll move on.
Yeah, some self-esteem will save you, and they will move on... To someone else.
The problem isn't solved. They prey on the weakest, and have no right to that.
What we need is a system that can actually stop bullying. Anything else just won't work. In an imperfect world someone may have to suffer, it had better be the bully.
Try making the best of the current backlash against geeks. If reporting someone for bullying doesn't work, consider reporting them for "geek" activities such as threatening to shoot you. And many jocks play computer games now and then, maybe it can be turned against them.
didja notice in milt's 27th that the kid being tormented over the edge has a rope tied to the tormentor's foot soas to bring him crashing down as well?
there were a few other's at cagle that cought my attention as well, were clinton, nato, and adults in general are questioning "why oh why couldn't they solve their problems like adults" and then they go back their strategic planning for kosovo.
Nazi's have as much right to exist in this world as you or I. To deny them such is to become that which you despise. I accept their views. I can also disagree with their views. Intolerent of one today is intolerent of all tomorrow.
Now you're starting to catch on -- productive members of an oppressive society are the tools of oppression.
Dude, the Matrix is just a movie. It's not real. You're twelve.
Yes and no. Yes, people have a right to choose their own ideas and beliefs, including the absurd beliefs that some other group is inferior or in some way responsible for your own problems. However, "your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins!" In other words, they do NOT have a right to act on those beliefs. "Acting" in this case includes advocating behavior detrimental to these others, or publicly displaying any of the symbols or uniforms of groups with a history of using violence in support of these beliefs. These constitute implicit threats, and even a subtle perceived threat may harm another person.
This quick summary isn't entirely satisfactory, as it brings up the following questions:
1) Does the simple act of wearing of a black trench coat or "duster" constitute an implied threat? I have a black leather trenchcoat I used to wear all the time, especially when it rains. Suddenly, this innocent item of apparrel has taken on a new connotation, so it's been left in the closet.
2) The Catholic Church and the United States government also have a history of using violence to spread and enforce their beliefs. In fact, NATO is using violence to enforce their beliefs even as we speak. Does this mean that wearing a rosary, or waving an American or NATO flag is an implicit threat? That probably depends on context, e.g. wearing a rosary to the local Synagogue, or waving a US or NATO flag in Belgrade, could certainly be construed as a threat.
On the bright side, this interpretation does say that Nazis and Klansmen should not be allowed to march through black neighborhoods, and that Ulster Orangemen should not be allowed to march through Catholic neighborhoods, which most people would agree with.
3) At what point does the use of negative symbols cross the line from poor taste to implicit threat?
E.g. should "Don't piss me off! I'm running out of places to hide the bodies!" t-shirts be banned?
Personally, when I used to ride a motorcycle, wear a beard, and dress in black leather, I noticed people used to react very differently to me, e.g. veering wide around me on the sidewalk. Which was strange, because I was the same wussy nerd I've always been (and in fact, I was president of the college student government at the time, they just couldn't tell that from my external appearance.)
4) Aren't the people who quickly judge someone to be a "Nazi" based on superficial appearances guilty of the same kind of predjudiced thinking as the Nazis themselves?
In other words, people who think for themselves may be viewed as dangerous by those whose only concern is for maintaining the status quo, but these very people are absolutely necessary for our survival as a species. Simular arguments hold for the continuation of a country, a culture, or any other arbitrary grouping of people.
P.S. Darwin was wrong: selection is NOT random. The first trait that would have evolved after heterosexual reproduction would have been the ability to choose a mate whose genes, combined with your own, would give the best chances for survival. Could this explain the romantic "love" we feel for some people, but not for others?
> Find your identity and wear ear rings all over your body on your own time.
That's the thing. When you enter the doors of the school you aren't magically "on school time." It's still you who has to suffer every insult. And at the end of the day, is the school one day closer to death? No; you are. (a natural death, I hasten to add.) You'll never be 12, or 13, or 16, again. You don't "find your identity" at 30.
The anarchy websites are a symptom. If you subject kids to the amount of bullshit present in today's schools... no whining when they crack. Buy the ticket, take the ride.
I wasn't attacking anyone for being weak or anything like that, how did this end up being a reply to my post?
Yes,regardless of whether they were flaming Nazi's or not makes no difference. As others (so far, everyone that has replied to the original post) have pointed out, Nazi's have as much right to exist as does anyone else.
We have free speech and press to protect controversial speech, not popular speech. Popular speech doesn't need protection. And, a quote that has been attributed to Larry Flynt (though I personally despise him, he had some good things to say): "If the Bill of Rights protects me, then it will protect all of you, because I'm the worst!"
The "racist-hate-crime-Nazi-fascist" spew from the media is just that: spew. It is, if nothing else, aimed at creating MORE racial hatred where there may have been none or little to begin with. It's a witch-hunt, basically. And people are slowly (sheep don't think too fast, I guess) becoming aware more and more of this fact.
You label someone a racist and they are marked for life. Perhaps we should see if the accused "racist" floats or sinks when placed in water? If they sink, then they were falsely accused. If they float, then they MUST be a racist, so we shall burn them at the stake!
It's a witch-hunt.
--Michael Maxwell
http://www.xnet.com/~drwho/
> I am a parent of young kids in Australia. Here
> things are very different and we
> have a culturally more accepting population,
Not true. Try being one of the youngest, smallest
and smartest in your class. I was continually
picked on all through school, even though I did
fight back. I never threw the first punch in a
fight yet I was in so many fights I broke my hand
twice. Being able to compete on the sports field
made no difference either, I represented the
school on numerous occasions at athletics meets.
Brendan.
No, High School's 4 years in most places. 4 years of hell. Though, typically, geeks get persecuted WAAY before that. Think 1st grade, kindergarten. 2nd grade. Preschool (extreme, but it happens).
So what you're saying is, you want the BLUE pill...
Most of my teachers were these shrivelled dim-witted creatures; many were long past the age where they should have retired. (Generously assuming they ever should have started teaching.) No net connection, a computer lab full of Macintosh SE's, and outside of CS none of my teachers could say what a "modem" was. I know because I asked them. There were a couple of good english teachers, but overall I would not recommend public school.
What I don't understand is why I should care about a bunch of kids, living in nice middle class homes, kids that are more or less rebelling against their parents (as most teens do at some point). Kids that have pleasant lives compared to....say some starving kids in North Korea or several parts of Africa; or perhaps some kids of kosovo. Kids being sold into slavery in the Sudanese civil war.
Really people, get a spine, stop whining, and realize that millions of people the world over would kill to have the nice safe lives of luxury that you're busy whining about.
Someone needs to tell me why I should care about some kids that are spoiled, as compared to the many other children that are really suffering.
There's nothing better than a fresh glass of orange juice in the morning.
Stop whining about getting joked in school!
There is an easy way out!
If someone jokes you for being goth, STOP BEING GOTH IF YOU HATE BEING JOKED SO MUCH.
If someone jokes you for playing Quake, STOP PLAYING QUAKE! It's that easy
If someone jokes you for dressing weird, DRESS NORMAL.
I don't where the fuck you guys go, but in our school the smart ones and the kids who get good grades ARE ALSO involved in sports and are popular.
The only people I see as Goth are the weed-smokers and weirdos, people who have no friends.
Finding friends isn't hard. Just stop being weird.
Stop whining about getting joked in school!
There is an easy way out!
If someone jokes you for being goth, STOP BEING GOTH IF YOU HATE BEING JOKED SO MUCH.
If someone jokes you for playing Quake, STOP PLAYING QUAKE! It's that easy
If someone jokes you for dressing weird, DRESS NORMAL.
I don't where the fuck you guys go, but in our school the smart ones and the kids who get good grades ARE ALSO involved in sports and are popular.
The only people I see as Goth are the weed-smokers and weirdos, people who have no friends.
Finding friends isn't hard. Just stop being weird.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Acting like a moron (in other words, like you) is a lot worse than taking some crap from meatheads.
Oh, well.
Somebody with your mentality interviewed with me for a job last week. We hired somebody else.
You lose.
Ok so I'm over 30 by almost another 30 so I'm not cool, hip, or whatever in is called now, but one of my friends is a 16 year old Goth and she's one of the kindest, sweetest kids I know. She'd give you the shirt off her tatooed back if you didn't mind wearing black. She didn't fit in anywhere else because she's both smart and over-weight, so she became one of the first Goths in her school. She studies history and midevel culture but very little else. She is discriminated against because she can pass the tests without homework.
I think the school system failed her as it did me and so many of the others who went as a former educator put it to the "slaughter houses of the mind". We need to respect the fact that INDIVIDUALS go to school and should be treated as such. Students are not clones.
http://www.theonion.com/onion3517/ wdyt_3517.html
And a couple more from America's finest news source...
Most Dangerous Rock Songs
Brutality-Desensitization Process Nearly Complete
Check out that last one, it's got some interesting thoughts on how this affects us...
Why are you angry about homeschooling? Is it because we are doing a BETTER job than the repressive, backwards, worried-about-self-esteem school system? You need to look at the most recent study completed on homeschoolers. We are producing far superior talents than the public school system.
The public schools are loaded with incompetent teachers who hold tenure. Unions such as the NEA lobby Congress for everything but superior education. Maybe you should research them to understand their agenda. One should write from facts, not feeling in regards to our public schools. Maybe you can also understand that most teachers in the NEA send their children to private school. Is that because the public school system is top notch??? Sometime soon investigate homeschooling at the Homeschool Legal Defense Assoc. to understand that you are critizing dedicated, concerned, and successful parents who belive in this alternative form of education. As an American, I feel I have the right to educate my child as I see fit. If homeschoolers were not such a threat to public education, the unions would not be after us to abolish our existence.
In closing, I am surprised to hear that your wife teaches phonics since most school systems utilize the whole language approach to teach reading skills to their students. Most teachers found phonics "too repressive."
No, the Littleton boys weren't "on drugs," it's a lot worse than that. What I read is that the one kid, Harris, was trying to kick psychiatric drugs. He had been on Luvox but he quit cold turkey, on account, supposedly, of his wanting to get into the military.
Psychiatric drugs can sometimes be real bad for you, especially when the wealthy, indifferent doctor who prescribes them doesn't give a shit about his patients and doesn't pay any attention to what the psychiatric drugs are actually doing to him.
I have an uncle who was in a hospital for a while. The staff decided that he talked too much so they put him on some variety of phenothiazines. Unfortunately, he was one of those people for whom phenothiazines have a paradoxical effect; rather than the expected effect of calming the patient down and making his hallucinations go away, these people get even crazier as a result of taking the "anti-pscyhotic" medicine. What do you think the idiots at the hospital did for my uncle? You got it; 1.) they strapped him to the bed, and 2.) the increased the dosage! My wife, who is a nurse, got him out of the mental hospital and carefully withdrew him from those drugs, but it was a whole year before he could think coherently.
I had another friend, he's dead now, who was systematically addicted to Xanax; he was up to six 1 mg pills a day. When he decided to quit cold turkey, he got sick as Hell for about a week. Then he thought he was over his withdrawals. Wrong - a week later he had a whole series of full-fledged grand mal epilieptic seizures.
None of this would have happened if some of those God damned doctors would actually pay a little bit of attention to their patients. They're sure getting paid enough to do it.
Anonymously yours (I forget passwords), WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net
This whole thing has been very hard for me because I've found myself empathizing most with the kids who crack up and go after their peers. I've been thinking throughout that if the hell I endured in high school fifteen years ago is any indications, these kids aren't the "monsters" -- it's the supposedly 'normal', 'popular' kids whom we ought to be crucifying in the media. Since when is it "okay" to pick on the kids who refuse to conform to whatever idiot thing is IT this week? When I ran into trouble in high school for being 'different', I was told to wear makeup, read, Vogue, dress fashionably -- in short, to become like my tormentors in the hopes that this would make them stop. I refused, and ended up losing a year of school when I had to transfer to a different city. The only difference between me and today's shooters is that I knew that when I started having serious thoughts of arson it was time to get out. And when there's nowhere else to go, like in today's consolidated districts...?
o/~ We don't need no education, we don't need no thought control! Teacher, leave us kids alone o/~
Katz,
Where did you get the idea that cultures "evolve?" Certainly not from cultural anthropologists.
"Evolve" implies that something is getting better or more sophisticated when in reality our culture simply becomes more complex and segmented. Goth culture is just an occurrance, it is no better, more evolved, or worse than any other dead end development in American Pop Culture. It would be more accurate to say that culture "changes."
Tell me who wasn't subjected to some form of abuse in high school. In general, teenagers are fairly cruel. Cliques have been around since high school was invented.
Most of these kids pride themselves on being different, then cry when the crowd treats them differently. Sorry, but Goth is weird. If you can't stand the heat, then choose another style.
There will always be mean people. How you react is your choice -- stew in a bucket of whiney self-pity, or react in an intelligent, rational manner. Violence doesn't answer anything. Neither does whining.
I was treated as weird in H.S. I made it through knowing that I was going to graduate college and pull down good money, while the jocks all sold used cars.
Quit whining and quit reading Katz' opportunistic crap.
To blame:
Availability of guns: 60%p? Parents: 51%
TV Programs and music: 49%
Social pressures on youth: 43%
The internet: 34%
Media coverage of similar incidents: 34%
Schools: 11%
The not-at-all to blame numbers were pretty low across the board, in fact the ONLY place where they were in the double digits at all were with the schools (22% not at all to blame) and the Internet (11% not at all to blame.)
To see the Gallup Poll for yourself, the link is here.
I'm afraid I'm not going to have to accuse Jon Katz of milking this story for all it's worth, along with the rest of the media. I haven't heard any really useful suggestions for future prevention of this sort of thing from them either.
Your Servant, A.C.
Why the goths' presumed obsession with Burroughs along with authors such as Poe? WSB has always struck me as being too cynical and well adjusted to be truly appreciated by anyone dwelling in existential misery and laughable pseudo-intellectualism. Just wondering, really, please enlighten me if you can.
AC
Until then outsiders human rights are being egregiously violated.
And when you start doing ___ again, all the conformists who got used to thinking only Evil People do ___ will freak, and the witch hunt will begin again. It's *very important* for the authorities to see pleasant and well-adjusted people wearing black, playing Quake, and generally being unusual - it makes us much harder to demonize.
I didn't hate it either - but I certainly had my
fair share of problems, especially in junior high.
I was picked on daily by many other kids for the first half of seventh grade - because I never fought back. One day I just had enough and fought
back - against one of the biggest kids on 7th
grade - and that was the end of it.
I only hit him once and he was way tougher than
I was, but people only pick on you if they know
you're not going to do anything about it.
One of the nerds in our grade (who was short and
gay btw) secretly took ju-jitsu lessons - and in
8th grade he beat up one of the worst bullies in
school. It was great.
I suppose in a larger school (class of 450 or so)
it isn't as much of a problem as it might be in
smaller schools where "everyone knows everyone".
If you don't have a chance to socialize and you
keep all of your hatred inside, there is a greater
chance that you'll end up like one of those two
kids in Colorado.
No excuse for that kind of behaviour but it can
be prevented. Kids in their teens are the
cruelest of any age.
Mark
Ditto. The only problem I had was that one guy in
my electronics class picked a fight with me for
my liking chess. We exchanged licks in the hall
outside the classroom, but that was it. And a two
day suspension for both of us.
I mostly never noticed all the supposed "trouble
with the kids of today" during my day, but I
suspect it was because I was too enthralled with
all the cool nerd things I was interested in, such
as who could hang the most expensive slide rule
on his belt.
I was visibly nerdy, so I was a visible target.
It just never happened. I suppose the harassers
had bigger fish to torment...
Mark Edwards
------------
Proof of Sanity Forged Upon Request
Thank you. Oh THANK YOU! I agree to feeling in the minority. I was begining to feel weird for not having bad feelings about high school.
I was a "Dungeons and Dragons" nerd, who loved model rockets and skeet shooting (yes, I actually used a gun RESPONSIBLY --oh shock of shocks!).
I had my share of getting insulted and invited to fights, I made A's and B's, except for one class that I rebelled in (for a "D-"). But overall I liked high school. I still keep up with some friends from high school.
Once again, I think the media has taken our desire to analyze a tragedy and overblown it into a ProblemFest.
There is this saying, and it's mostly true. The
nerds do much better on the wide open oceans
of the real world than the jocks ever do. The
only reason the jocks win in high school is
because there's nowhere to go - you're always
cheek to jowl with everyone else, crammed in
like the cattle the school bureaucrats see you
as. Give you some room to maneuver, and you
can always, always move faster than they can.
I was just like you 10 years ago, and as much
as I would like to forget, I can't. I understood
Littleton in about 30 seconds. All too well.
Unfortunate, for them and for us.
Let me give all of you nerds in high school
some advice. You're never going to win playing
their game. So DON'T. It's time to think outside
the box, folks. It's our strength and their
weakness. Let's use our strength.
The problem is public high school. It's an
outdated institution, that will one day implode
under it's own weight. But that's at least 30
years away from now. You don't have that long.
And before it happens, more chaos, like we've
seen, is going to occur. No bureaucracy goes
quietly into the night. They all rage, rage
rage against the dying light.
You need to somehow get the necessary credentials
to get into college, so you can get that 4-year
degree. And you need to do it without spending
another day in high school. You must do it NOW.
The persecution will only get worse.
My proposal is junior college. Most junior colleges will take just about anyone. I
remember being able to take classes and receive
grades on college level calculus while I was
in high school, by attending junior college.
You may have to talk your way past the junior
college admissions office, but I'm here to say
that it IS possible.
And once you've got a junior college degree,
it's VERY VERY easy to transfer to a real
4-year college. Then you get your real degree,
and you're home free.
Another available path is to somehow weasel
your way in to a magnet school in your district.
There you can be in communion with your own
kind, and go directly into a real college.
Another path is to get into a private school,
if your parents have the dough. But take care,
some private schools are just as full of jocks
as the public schools.
As a last resort, drop out, home school, and
take your GED. You won't be able to get into
a 4-year college, but if you take the junior
college route, you should be able to attend
a 4-year with a little work.
There's no reason to put up with any of this.
Use your creativity, find some room to maneuver,
and watch those jock fade into time and distance.
Jon has created an insightful series of articles here, but misses an important point:
The hierarchy, the "pecking order" endured by kids in school is largely invisible and unreachable by teachers and school administrators. Hazing, cruel remarks and physical torment take place in restrooms, in crowds, off-campus and other places out of view of adults.
The result is that teachers think that clean-cut jock is just a fine human being. They never seem him twist the arm of the geek in the locker room, never see him jeer at the guys who drop the ball in the endless football/baseball/basketball tournaments that are "gym" class.
Since this pecking order exists below the radar
of the teachers and other adults, all the B.S.
posters, lectures, "sensitivity training" and other sanctimonious blather that will begin to issue from the school establishment cannot even
begin to have an effect.
Another theme touched on in the series is culture
and violence.
As far as culture goes, it *is* appropriate for
thinking people to be critical of some aspects of
any culture. Most of us don't approve of murder, violence, robbery and so forth.
Therefore, musical lyrics that advocate these things *should* be held up for criticism. Censorship ? No. But an open discussion of the values espoused in music, literature and games
is crucial. It should be OK to say, "That
sucks."
My $0.02 worth...
Perhaps this is the Great Geek Awakening. Perhaps not. What I do know is that Katz is helping me by sharing the thoughts of others who are/were where I once was. It's nice to know I'm not alone.
It's a tragedy that our best and brightest are often shunned, abused, and humiliated for no other reason than being what they are. I figured out long ago that it's best to just say "dude" a lot and be familiar with sports and pop music -- it saved me from a lot of knuckle sandwiches in high school.
It wasn't so bad after I graduated, but now I'm just incognito and disconnected. The statistical odds against meeting and talking to someone who shares my level of understanding are so slim that I gave up long ago. Yes, there is wisdom to be had from fools, but that is no substitute for intellectual stimulation. Therefore I tread the solitary (and apparently increasingly dangerous) path of the closet geek.
Individual people are often wonderful, but humanity sucks.
Schools need to be on the lookout for "students who are angry or alienated," says Carroll, adding that special attention now needs to be paid to what children are doing on the Internet. Parents have to know what their kids are doing," Carroll says. "We felt that about alcohol, we felt that about drugs and we now feel that about the Internet."
This man misses the point. Totally. The reason this HAPPENED is because people fear, shun, and harass those and that which they don't understand. If my high school was "on the lookout" when I was there, I'd have never been allowed to graduate. I'm guessing quite a few of the slashdot readers would be in the same situation. It's NOT the internet, it's NOT the lack of popularity, although they're certainly the most easy to blame, and were possibly secondary contributions. The real 'reason' this happened is a combination of bad parenting (not seeing your kids worship hitler and build bombs), ever-present hatred towards other people (man is not wired to deal with it - there's a big difference between being NOT POPULAR and CONSTANT PERSECUTION), and the fact that something deep inside those boys just plain snapped.
The media needs to realize this, and STOP THE WITCHHUNT before it causes someone to get seriously hurt at the hands of "concerned classmates". That is, if it hasn't happened already.
Heh... what the media needs to do is call me... I'll give 'em an earful....
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Just lurking, thanks!
Most of this article makes sense, and I agree with what Katz has to say. Video gaming clubs and programming clubs would be excellent things to do with the barrage of computers being sent by the Feds and not being used.
I believe people should have the right to express themselves, but they must be able to voluntarily limit themselves. In school, I wanted to rebel, wear trenchcoats and such, but there's only so far you can go before you starting pissing people off. And that's not a good impression to make.
By the way, about the trenchcoats and Goth clothing, the solution is simple. Uniforms. A dress code. Dress codes are used at work, so why not at schools?
The main point I'm trying to make, though, is the fact that I have no pity for a kid that is bored. Being bored means you're -too- active, and you can never sit still and wait for anything. That's a really bad habit to have when entering the work environment. I guess video games, MTV, and our culture has to take some blame for today's short attention spans.
I had to take many "boring" classes in high school, but I didn't complain. In fact, I found them to be an exercise for my brain. How long could I sit still and listen to something I already know without getting distracted? Now there's a quality I want to bring into a meeting with the CEO at work.
Even if it was as bad everywhere else (what isn't true), it still sucks in extreme. A lot of people can't tolerate my criticism of US because they assume that if I live in this country I have to like everything here. Sorry to disappoint them, it's wrong. When I lived in Russia I criticized Russia even more, and I honestly believe that valid criticism can help to make things better. Misplaced "patriotism" like in the previous message is one of the reasons that keep society from improvement.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
You know, I'm kind of sick of everyone blaming schools for these kids going off when in reality it is poor parenting.
On one side you have the bullies. They have always existed, but you don't hear about kids blowing up schools and going on killing rampages 20 years ago. Nothing has changed, they still mock and hurt in the same sadistic ways.
On the other side you have parents. Parents which no longer spend a lot of time with their kids. Kids are coming into schools with low self-esteem and no social skills. This is becoming worse as computers are being put in every home and kids are spending less and less time with other people.
So you have a ticking timebomb. Kids which don't know how to deal with social pressures and access to guns, plans for bombs, etc.
What is the answer? Well it's really simple, the parenting needs to change. Every high school or college should have a mandatory parenting class of some sort which emphises the correct way to bring up a child so that they are well adjusted.
I personally was not brought up under ideal conditions, but I spent a large portion of my early years in constant contact with friends. I practically lived at friends houses and I think that helped me adjust in school. We moved a lot so my computers were the only way I could keep in constant contact with a group of people. It was the stability I needed in my childhood.
Remember, being a nerd doesn't mean you have to lack social skills. Children should be forced to develop them at an early age so, even if they get mocked in high scool... they know how to deal with it.
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The world is neither black nor white nor good nor evil, only many shades of CowboyNeal.
GEEKS STAND UP!
iv ehad enough of this, and i havent even had it as bad as those kids, im out of school thank bob, but i had to put up with this kind of suspicion when i was still in highschool.
all the geeks can take a lesson from the punks and the skins, "if the kids were united they would never ever be devided", if you stand up for yourselves together, and support each other like ive seen here, but inthe real world, NO ONE, not the administration, not the clueless parents, not the police, not the man. (unfortunently for them) Unlike the punk all the geeks are pure, there is no such thing as a wanna be geek. We can all be the vanguard of a new world of enlightenment and growth intellectually, but not if remain a silent majority.
Stand Up
there are strength in both knowledge and numbers, you have both, use them, dont let them use meer physical strength work against you. Fight back with all you can, dont get yourself arrested or anything, but dont let yourself be oppressed at the same time.
I wish all the subcultures would fianlly band together, a lot are so similar its scarry, after all, the only diffrence between a punk and a geek is a pit at shows, im afraid what a culture which doesnt take out its aggressions regularly might do when it 'snaps'..........
high school.
Sure, I remember a lot of bad times; times when
administrators and teachers picked on me and my
friends for not falling into line, times when the
jocks and rich kids got special treatment, times
when I got made fun of...
Overall, though, high school was fun. I remember
laying out in the sun with my friends, water-gun
fights (probably banned now, eh?), bowling,
Denny's at all hours, parties, and just plain
hanging out.
I see all of this angst dripping around here, and
I almost feel like I have to defend my experience
because it didn't suck. And yeah, I was in the
dweeb clique -- RPGs, first person shooter games,
trench coats et. al....
Someone back me up here....
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Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
I do have the horror stories to tell and was forced to leave school shortly before my 16th birthday and get my GED. Since then I have been trying to not stop learning since.
Posted by The [not so] Little Hacker:
I'm sorry. I'm just sick and tired of hearing about people having their "rights violated" in schools. Yes, a witch-hunt such as this is such a violation. But when you begin to refer to the structure of schools as such, you generalize. I was in the same boat as many people until my sophomore year of high school. That's when I realized that much of the ridicule I received was not from being different (which I was...) but from being paranoid about being different and about everyone else being "out to get me."
I soon realized that it was also partly my fault for my being ridiculed. The kids who fit in weren't making fun of me because I was a geek. They were making fun of me because I thought everyone did/wanted to.
Jon, I don't know where you come in saying that goths are individualistic. They are the biggest cult following out there(not in a bad sense, just that there's a lot of you and all of you are rather unindividualistic).
Everyone out there just has to remember that Geeks are not the minority. We're the majority. The majority is almost never in control. Stop thinking yourselves into being made fun of. Nobody will make fun of you if you don't expect them to.
Posted by The [not so] Little Hacker:
What is morally true to one may not be morally true to another. What is ethically true must be followed by everyone. Ethics are what your actions are, morals are your justification for the pre-set ethics.
Posted by *kit:
I have found the articles the last few days interesting, informative, and disturbing, but unfortunately not too surprising-it reminds me too much of my own highschool experience. It makes me glad to be out of high school and in college!
I thought I'd share some good news actually on this topic...I live in Lincoln Nebraska and I read on the front page of the Lincoln JournalStar yesterday that students at one of the highschools decided to have a walkout to protest unfair treatment of individuals who wear trencoats, or are picked on because they are quiet and reserved, or seen as social outcasts, geeks or nerds. The principal actually came out with the students and they had a moment of silence around the flagpole for the victims in Littleton. He also allowed them to talk to the news media and actually sat down with the students and was willing to LISTEN to their concerns. I'm impressed. I don't know how much good it will do in the long run, but It's a step in the right direction. As a geek myself who knows the alienation that kids can face I fully support these highschoolers.
Posted by mootar:
when your story with my mail was posted several students in a and issued a formal apology Desktop publishing class recognized the story (and the name) and handed printouts to the principal who called me into his office to tell me that the school had all investigations stopped and issued a formal apology to me.
Thank you so much
Mootar High King OF The Cow Gods
Posted by stodge:
Seems to me that people are using the shootings as an excuse to say "hey we're geeks/nerds/whatever and we have a tough life because of it". So is a jock different from a nerd? Is a bully different from a geek? Nope. We're all labelled by each other in some way. I have a friend who is very clever, and she laughs at Jocks and labels them as stupid idiots. Im sure they laugh back at her for liking maths. Maybe because I was between both worlds I don't quite see the point of this hysteria.
Sounds like Katz is trying to create martyrs from geeks. You is what you is.
Posted by Dr_Pain:
Du you realy think that the answer is "do what the mob whants you to do"?
I dont think so. One have to stand up and fight for your right to be diffrent and to wear whatever you feel good in.
I for myself let nobody tell me what I have to wear or what couler my nails should have.
Posted by GrafLir:
I read with intereset the stories of victimisation of those who are different.
People who show signs of thinking for themselves will always be feared because they threaten the status quo. They threaten to break apart people's comfortable little world by challenging their assumptions about it.
Socrates, Plato, Gallileo, Luther, Darwin.....and so on and so on.....
Posted by Alf Alpha:
I'm not sure if I have the quote correct, but in one of the SW trailers Yoda says something like this: "Fear leads to suffering, suffering leads to hate and hates leads to the Dark Side."
One of the greatest tradgedies that has become apparent in these recent posts is how many people have given into the Dark Side. The decision whether to let hate dominate our own lives is our own choice, whether we are the oppresors or the ones being oppressed.
And so with this latest backlash the cycles continues. However, the choice of response if ours, we can choose to forgive or to hate in return.
May the Force be with you, always.
Is this really a step up from your old gigs, sir? How is this any better than Phyllis George interviewing some "grief counsellor" in between laxative ads and a station break? It's better because we all get to genuflect interactively? Either way, it's just some more bourgeois dispensing of band-aids, a bunch of RN-cyclopses in the private hospitals of the kingdom of the blind. Old Media or New, it's still Garbage In, Garbage Out. Some things are timeless.
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=8^
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=8^
I'm user #783, IIRC. I'm not some interloper here; I'd like to think it's my forum too -- /. is my browsers' start page. I'm as on-topic as anyone else. I love Ask Slashdot, the GPL, RMS, tarballs, OO, DSP, Java, a certain anti-trust case, and any number of "relevant" topics (turnoffs: sunlight, aspartame, bad hair days, and mean people). I have about seven toolkits installed on my box, and I'm wrestling with all of them in search of The Right One. Unfortunately, what we have here this week is a mania far removed from hardware, software, and licenses.
You hit the nail on the head, surely by accident: "Far worse things are happening out there". That's why I'm on-topic. Geeks, being part of society, are often complicit (directly or, more often, indirectly) in those "far worse things"; that shows me that whatever they may have suffered in high school failed to register permanently on their brains -- it shows me that their radius of compassion is woefully small. (Yes, Eric, if you're reading this, you are one of many exceptions :)
If you can't make the leap from feeling sorry for yourself (or a fellow "oppressed" geek) to feeling anger and remorse over a political prisoner or a sweatshop laborer's plight, then Katz's whole exercise is just shallow pimping. If you can't make the leap from jocks abusing geeks to being angry about the plight of the political footballs in the ghettos that your commute and your subdivision so deftly avoid, then Katz's shallow pimping is as obscene as the abuse of geek students.
Do you get it now? If not, then please explain -- in 3000 words or more -- why you think "nerds are more important than the herded masses". Can any of you explain? It is the impression I get, just as I get the impression from Katz's peers in Big Media that the deaths of affluent suburban kids are more important than, say, deaths from malnutrition occurring in the very same country.
Let me close with a quote from my favorite nerd, a bookish lawyer (and one-time journalist, IIRC), who never quite learned how to fight his way out of a paper bag, though he was often provoked.
We will learn far more about real solutions from reading the writings of that nerd (his name was Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi) than we will from reading Katz and the often-hysterical "Geek Power Now!" threads from our peers here.--
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=8^
I don't know if you'v had a job or just work in the wrong places. But I've found I get rewarded more/better because I am individualistic. Sure they would look at me funny if I came in with green hair tomorrow, but my bosses have recongized I think differently then most of the drones. I voice my opinions. I speek up in meetings. I do good work to back up my words. I question my bosses. I don't sit idlely by. And I have been rewarded for all that, not crushed as you seem to think I would be.
Every where I have worked they seem to prefer people that think for themselves. The way the market is in our industry I don't think I can lose. If I don't agree with the company I am working for, and I can't change their minds, I can change jobs, just like that. They don't have power over me. They have to work to keep me.
?
Form a union?
Yeah right, unions look out for the best interest of members. They are usually just as evil as the companies. They have become as much an establishment as companies. It is in their best interest to keep employees unhappy so the employees think they are getting their moneys-worth when the union negotiates for an extra role of TP in the john. Not all unions are bad, but they are not the great wonderful things they are in the history books. Even then I bet there was plenty of skimming of the dues.
Fair distribution of profits? I don't want this myself. If I work my ass off why should some leach get as much money as me? I do negotiate my share of the companies profits. It's called my salary. And if I don't think I am getting my worth I can demand more or go somewhere else.
The Companies profitabilty? I want them to make tons of money. If they are making tons of money and I had something to do with it I can justify why I deserve that huge ass raise. And as I said before the way the market is if they don't want to compensate me there are companies that will.
No I may not get my way, but I have yet to feel any backlash for stating my opinion. I question when I don't get my way, but I realize I can't always win. You have to "Play nice with others" no matter what you do. You work for a company you have to get along with your co-workers and management. You own your own business you have to get along with employees and customers. You work with an Free/Open Software group you'll get more done if you work with other developers. Aguements are good and help groups come to the best solutions, but you have to be willing to compromise.
Back to unions because I've had another thought. Do you really want to work for a company that you had to force to treat you as a useful part of the organization? Or a company that already realizes how important good employees are? Now this is just a guess, but I think most people would be happier working for the second organization.
?
The entire point of school should be academics. We send our children there to get an education, to learn how to deal with one another in a social setting and to learn about the world around them, to get a background in our history and culture and to learn the fundamental skills required to function in the world.
If that's the case, then why do we select the biggest and strongest male students, get them to don body armor and run onto a field to smash one another around, whilst the most attractive female students jump around in skimpy outfits and wave pom-poms around? Why is it that every Friday, we glorify this violent exercise with several minutes of footage on the evening news?
We send students a conflicting message. We tell them to succeed academically and conform. But at the same time we create a special class of people, the jocks, who have everything given to them, are allowed to amuse themselves at the expense of other students with little or no repercussions. The greatest academic achievements of most of the students get little or no mention, but the quarterback will always see his name in the paper.
Look at the kids in the Trenchcoat Mafia, the kids who have committed the other well-publicized acts of school violence recently, and the kids who are now being persecuted as a result of these acts. What do they all have in common? Most of them are very intelligent, and all of them feel worthless and rejected by the system. Is it any wonder? The school system doesn't make any effort to accommodate them, to challenge them, to make them feel involved and interested. Instead it promotes a culture in which physical strength and attractiveness are valued above all else.
The fix is simple. Get rid of the hero class, stop shining the spotlight on a group whose achievements, at least in the context of what is supposed to be an institute of learning, are completely irrelevant. Don't do away with all athletic programs, but stop elevating them to the point where they overshadow all else. The jocks will do fine without it, the smart kids will do better than they're doing now, and perhaps if more time is devoted to academics the freaks and the geeks will find something worthwhile in the system.
Have any of the people who've been investigated contacted a lawyer or some group like the ACLU? If any police department is so poorly educated and so grossly negligent in their duties to investigate people on the charges Katz has been listing, they deserve to be slapped down hard. School administrators also seem to need a reminder that they are not the KGB...
"Rowwwwwsdowerrrrr!"
haha MST rules
"There is no spoon" - Neo, The Matrix
"I and my friends do this sometimes -- it's amazing how many people you meet that way. And it's been fairly obvious to us that we're having some effect on at least some of the people we run into as we cruise down the street in our black leather, spreading goodwill."
:-)
I'd be more impressed if you could do that in a suit and tie, or a Taco Bell uniform, or a clown costume. Real personal power comes from within and doesn't rely on leather. Or from a baseball cap and a football team jacket, for that matter.
If you really want to be different, change from within. So few do.
Lao Tzu sez:
"The ancient masters were subtle, mysterious, profound, responsive.
The depth of their knowledge is unfathomable.
Because it is unfathomable,
all we can do is describe their appearance.
Watchful, like men crossing a winter stream.
Alert, like men aware of danger.
Courteous, like visiting guests.
Yielding, like ice about to melt.
Simple, like uncarved blocks of wood.
Hollow, like caves.
Opaque, like muddy pools."
Notice that he doesn't mention what they're wearing.
Groucho
"If we can show others that there's nothing horribly wrong with us black-leather-wearing, quake-playing non-conformists, then we've made a step towards mutual understanding."
I didn't know nonconformists were so homogenous.
Certain fashion statements are meant to say, "I'm dangerous and unpredictable". That's why teens wear them in the first place. If society didn't perceive black trenchcoats, tattoos, noserings and chains as threatening they wouldn't have such appeal in some quarters.
If you wanna play at being threatening don't be surprised when you are taken seriously. Especially in light of recent events.
Mutual understanding? Fine. Let's start with you understanding that some people are scared.
Groucho
Yes, harassing people for wearing trenchcoats seems prima facie idiotic. At least it did yesterday.
Last night I was walking along the street around midnight and I saw two young boys coming towards me. One was wearing a long black coat. I have to admit this thought crossed my mind: what if he's planning a copycat killing?
And hey, I'm a freaky geek who was picked on in high school. Shouldn't I be sympathetic?
The fact is, these cops and principals, who are so out of touch that they probably never noticed trenchcoats before, are suddenly struck dumb with fear at the sight of that particular piece of apparel. It's not a conspiracy to suppress individuality, it's just the honest terror of the clueless whitebread types.
Will there be copycat killings, though? It seems there was one yesterday in Canada, with a trenchcoat-wearing gunman wounding one student and killing another.
Try to understand that people are very afraid right now. Try to leave your trenchcoat, your Marilyn Manson t-shirts and your skull earrings at home for a few weeks. When the urge comes upon you to utter threats in a rage or say that you understand how the gunmen felt, bite your tongue and post about it later. If parents or teachers question your right to use the Internet, quietly and calmly argue that you use it for research, that you like to read the headline news, and that you need it to download antivirus updates (point to Melissa and CIH).
This too shall pass.
Groucho
Some of the things Katz says are wrong, aughably wrong. Internet Access is a "right"??? puh-leeeze! That is the most idiotic thing I've heard today. Internet access is no more a "right" than TV ownership. Sure, if you can afford it there's no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to have it -- but to speak of Internet access as a "right" is to trivialize the liberties uaranteed us by the Constitution in this country: rights to free speech, a free press, etc. It's not a "right". It's an economic good that ought to be as freely available (as distinguished from free) as any other economic good.
Internet access is as much a right as any other form of freedom of assembly. Just because you can't get to a particular gathering doesn't jeopardize your right to attend other gatherings you can reach and afford.
Whenever I have to fill in a form that wants to know my occupation I always put 'Professional Computer Nerd'. Sure it makes people laugh, but it does describe exactly what I am/do. I've not had my business cards printed up yet but that'll be one of the job titles on there.
Seriously, stand up, take the stereotype and make it a positive one. Don't let yourself be insulted because someone thinks you're clever, so what if they meant it as an insult, that's their problem.
Over here, (the UK) geeks and nerds, and nearly anyone who is interested in almost anything that's mentally demanding is labelled as 'sad'. I think not. If this is 'sad' then I'm Glad to be Sad. If this is what not having a life is then thanks, I'm not sure I need one, I'm having too much fun with the one I haven't got.
Um... Evolution is merely change over time. There's no value judgment on that change.
Darwinian Evolution is gradual improvement over time (generations) through a process of natural selection or the survival of the fittest.
Cultural Evolution is usually not Darwinian Evolution.
But I have to confess that I went to a small private high school run by a church. I was sent there because the bullying in primary school fore-shadowed only worse in the local public high school (which didn't have a good reputation). I am lucky to have such caring parents.
I am a computer geek. I enjoy a good game of Quake II deathmatch. I also enjoy fantasy novels, movies and TV. And I enjoy the very human aspects of shows such as Neon Genesis Evangelion (that's a major reason I watch them).
Katz and Slashdot have enabled me to see a side of the situation that the popular media has a great deal of trouble portraying. More to the point, I have been able to share it with others. Never have I valued Katz articles so much.
Wade.
You are very right about HS having a caste system... the only reason this has not totally gone crazy is because the caste system in HS totally reverses when you get out of it...
A program is a device used to convert data into error messages.
"witch-hunt" issues aside, we can at least say it's a good thing that all these other bombing plots and things HAVE been uncovered. These were other kids planning to do the same exact thing - so at least some lives were saved.
but this tells us two other things -
The rage that Harris and Klebold felt, is not unique, there are other kids being put through at least as bad a situation.
We were lucky in uncovering some of these other plots. How many more spring flowers of death are out there ready to blossom? They can't catch them all. It's going to be a bloody, bloody spring.
SO-
I AM seeing some small shift in attitudes in the press about this. In large part, they're still focussed on the video games and the music, and guns. But there is a faction out there that is at least talking about this other issue. Main stream. Some good will come of it, but I think that probably it's going to take a much higher stack of corpses to get America to fully wake up.
Sad, because there are many many kids out there who seem to be willing sacrifice everything to get their revenge, and prove this point.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
beer party: double-secret probation
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
"... you're a star-belly sneech you suck like a leech, you want everyone to act like you - kiss ass for your bitch so you can get rich but your boss gets richer off you. . ."
-JBiafra from "Holiday in Cambodia"
(I'm glad we at least had Dead Kennedys when I was in school - DK tshirts having been banned at my school)
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Red cars. they've been doing that for years.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
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You obviously don't understand the psyche of the social outcast.
It BEGINS with being rejected.
Then the kids try to fit in, and for whatever reason, many of them fail (though, from some testimonials I've read here, many do succeed).
I'm not going to begin to analyze why some kids fail: I really wish I knew why I did, because I TRIED to at first.
After that humiliation, they reject that which rejects them. They join a group where they can find acceptance and fit in, and tho there were no goths in my day (it was punkers/skaters/thrashers back then), they do all they can to wear their rejection of "normals" like a badge, and they become proud of their differences even if they have to fabricate them occasionally. This pride turns into a feeling of superiority, and a rightous desire for "revenge", or at least some form of "justice".
So I guess I must state again, that the different kids, may be different by choice, and probably not all of them do the goth thing as a rejection mechanism, but in the context of this discussion, it's a reaction to the original rejection.
Do 5 year olds wear white makeup and black trenchcoats? Hell no. This is the time when they're just starting this process of either fitting in, or not. And they certainly don't begin to formulate this defensive rejection strategy until a few years later.
I've actually talked to some of the people I went to HS with recently. And I asked them. What was my problem? you know what they said? They thought I was stuck-up. Well, dammit. I was. But I can remember a time that I wasn't, and was still turned out. Aside from situations where kids are moved to different schools or different states, I think that, in many cases, this process starts very early - and we've heard testimonials from people who moved to another school and became popular, or moved to another school, and went from normal to outcast. So obviously it's much more complex than I'm attempting to portray it - but then again, WAY, WAY more complex than you've portrayed it, Dmarko.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
DavidTC, you may have read my opinion, and I guess I can't agree with you that in my case, liking science, computers, etc. more than sports was THE defining factor that caused my problems.
There were other kids in my school who WERE into those things, who WERE popular.
Yeah, my school was somewhat different than a lot of the others. Academic achievement WAS glorified too. Not as much as sports, but the "smart" kids were rewarded. I was smart, I did great on tests, but I was never a good student, and often carefully (you might even say pathologically) maintained a minumum GPA required to be passed thru the system. To this day, I don't know what my problem was, what caused the rejection, that escalated to: Voted Most Likely To Blow Up The World. (heh)
I do know that it's still a problem, but the adult world shields me from much of the consequences I suffered as a teen.
So I agree that there IS something wrong with "the system", but I disagree that it's the fault of the jocks, and I'll disagree with previous statements of mine that say it's school athletics (except when it becomes a pathological institutional obscession).
Some of the solutions previously posed seem like a good idea, but maybe, it's more complicated than we think. Maybe we all have some things in common, how we were treated, and the pain and rage that we felt ("needs killin' lists"), but maybe there were different causes and certainly, every school is different.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Instead of banning Doom and Quake, schools should be forming Doom and Quake clubs, presided over
by teachers who actually know something about the online world.."
that's about as likely to happen as a "Campus Satanist Fellowship" group.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I couldn't get contacts. Rampant eye infections.
/. thread)
The problem isn't glasses tho, it's spending less than $200 on your FRAMES.
(that's another rant for, I'm sure, another poignant
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
It seems to me that one of the things that the Net community is good at is spontaneously organizing to point out harmful bullshit. For instance, consider the exposure of the original Pentium division bug -- leaked all over USENET while Intel was still denying its existence. If it hadn't been for USENET, it probably never would have gotten any press: bullshit ("There is no bug, and besides, it's not a very big one") would have won. More recently, the Mindcraft scam, as with countless other Microsoft crimes, might not have been exposed if it weren't for the Net in general, and Slashdot (and similar forums) in particular.
... can we mobilize this ability in defense of our geek (and goth, and punk) brethren (and sistren) in America's high schools? I think we can. All we need to do is mobilize something like the Slashdot Effect -- and target it on offending schools.
... but it just might help. Sites like High School Underground, and forums like these on Slashdot, are a start -- but in order to actually change the world, we need to meet the offenders on their own ground, and get them the message that their behavior is intolerable.
So
More than a few high schools now have their own Web pages. Lots of high school teachers and administrators have their own email addresses. (They're probably all on AOL, but that's no matter.) And every high school principal or headmaster, I'm sure, has a telephone.
So perhaps what we need is for geeks, goths, and other HS outsiders to tell their stories of harassment and abuse -- but to tell them with the names and email addresses of the offending administrators. When Mr. Jones says that "it's just part of growing up" to be beaten by classmates, or Ms. Brown suspends a student for wearing black, or Dr. Smith encourages students to mock and harass those who don't attend pep rallies -- Mr. Jones, Ms. Brown, and Dr. Smith should get mailboxes full of polite condemnation from educated, intelligent, and successful geeks.
It's just an idea
Be careful who you share that fact with however. I mentioned this to some people I had been exchanging email on the subject and suddenly I became the most evil person on the planet. None of these people however had ever been in the same situation. High school was probably the high point of their lives so far.
A company is not a democracy. Just because something can get you fired doesn't mean it should get you jailed. There's a difference between a company looking out for it's best interests, and legislating common sense.
You can't apply the same rules to a school, because the school is for the student's benefit, not the people who run the school.
Run a pencil-and-paper RPG campaign with your far-off friends: Gametable!
Wow, this is a really bad idea.
The really SCARY thing about this whole debacle is that kids are having their rights revoked for non-offenses. A teacher making a comment about a student being a source of trouble is not and SHOULD not be illegal. She has the right to say that. She has the responsibility to keep it to herself in front of other students, but the administration should be savvy enough to deal with it, not legislation or the police.
Blanket policy is ALWAYS a bad idea. Mandatory sentences just don't make any sense. Each situation is different, and we always need to determine the proper course of action based on the individual situation, and laws that PREVENT us from doing that are misguided at best.
Kids fight... they argue... they say things they don't mean. They are a bundle of hormones, and it's not that easy to behave the way you want them to. Hell, I am a bundle of hormones, and it's not easy to behave the way I want me to. Killing people is an EXTREME... most kids are not about to actually murder people, even if they say they will or want to. It's an expression of anger, not an actual intent to kill.
Ultimately, the REAL flaw with your idea, regardless of how immoral it seems to me, is that it addresses a problem after it's already started. The problem is that teachers/administration are hired that think like this, and students are brought up to be cliquey and treat people that aren't like them poorly. And, if we go back into the development of student personalities to where the problem actually forms, it comes down to something we can't solve with new laws: child-rearing. The only real way to solve the problem of significant peer abuse is by educating... Educating parents who, in turn, educate their children, at a young age. Making it clear to people that it's OK to be smart, and to excel in class, and to be bad at sports, if that's who they are and want to be, and if that's who others are and want to be.
Your authoritarian tactics will just harbor resentment and make everyone feel oppressed, failing to solve anything. I think The Problem is that the administrations in charge of these schools are rather uninspired and think exactly like you do.
Run a pencil-and-paper RPG campaign with your far-off friends: Gametable!
They are systematically mistreated and abused. This isn't something "random", that they just happen to be in the way of.
And after all of that, they are ignored or laughed at for not liking it.
Much as I am horrified and upset about what happened, if you put a kid under THAT much torment, then squeeze their mind until it explodes from the pressure, and finally hand them a gun, they are not going to go plant daffodils in it.
What happened was an inevitable consequence of cruelty, abuse and neglect. They weren't listened to when they DID reach out, from what I can see. Few kids who end up either killing themselves or others are, so they end up screaming for help the only way that anyone'll hear.
People want these kinds of tragedies to stop? They need to clean their lug-holes out and -listen- to the kids. All this hostility to "geeks" and the Internet is just an excuse to avoid applying soap and water to some badly-blocked ears.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Kids raised in interactive environments - with zappers, Nintendos,
...I'm not really sure that requiring everything to come with flashing lights and sound effects is really a Good Thing[tm]. That doesn't mean that teachers shouldn't try to get the students *interested* in the subject but I've been in classes that were incredibly informative and fascinating even though the teacher was doing nothing but lecture. I don't mean to be defending bad teaching--but not everything in life has to be exciting. Yes?
:-P It's why I'm never going to be a teacher..
computers, sophisticated games - complain that they sometimes struggle in
environments where adults stand for hours droning at them about passive
things. This doesn't mean they are dumb, just different. Their digital world
is much more vital, colorful and engaging that their educational one.
As a general rule, I'd suggest that people learn to appreciate things that aren't 'entertaining' in the sense it's used today--ie, conducive to a state of overstimulation.
Daniel
PS - I'm in my first year of college right now so I do have recent experience on the student-end of things. And my teaching is terrible, even people who want to understand me fall asleep.
Hurry up and jump on the individualist bandwagon!
On one line you say:
"It is pomposity on a papal or imperial scale for Katz to arrogate to himself the authority to declare which cultures are legitimate (i.e. 'all of them')."
One line later, you say:
"A death-obsessed culture is ethically illegitimate."
If it is pompous and arrogant for Katz to make value judgements about different cultures, what gives you the right to do exactly the same thing?
You seem to assume that the particular selection of rights granted in the amendments to the U.S. constitution are some kind of holy writ, in spite of the fact that they are subject to change, have only existed for a few generations, and don't apply to something like 95% of the world population.
Why *not* make Internet access a right, if it turns out to be something essential for participation in civic life? Postal service and literacy are enforced as "rights" via government subsidy in every industrial nation I can think of; universal health care and telephone service are also common. If Internet access became as essential to civic life as mail and reading, *not* making it a right would be absurd.
-Mars
I checked slashdot twice within a few minutes, and this one just popped up. I read the article and reloaded and your comment was here. Yeah you could have read it but i doubt it. Anyways, change what you cannot accept? We cannot accept this. Accept what you cannot change? This can be changed, don't expect it to happen the week after the media finally tells people the real reason (if they even tell them, since we know they wont get it on thier own). You just seem to negative about this...oh well.
I think this is an excellent idea, but it has to go further. I'd email you but you did not provide an email address, so I'll post my suggestions here.
Your idea of a "black ribbon" is an example of a powerful force: symbolism. Excellent. Symbolism is what makes the notion of a national flag, ribbon, or even swastika powerful: it is a compact representation of support for an idea, good or bad.
The wearing of a symbol shows support for the idea and instantly allows those who share a common view to come together. It also allows a demonstration of just how string support for a particular idea is.
You need to take this symbol to the national level.
Consider starting an organization, and give it a catchy name, say something like (and this is only a suggestion), KAST: Kids Against School Tyranny. Your black ribbon could become a symbol of what such an organization stands for, and the organization itself allows otherwise diverse supporters of the idea to come together as a cohesive group.
Some suggestions:
KAST (change the moniker if you don't like it) should be fundementally run by kids: they're the closest to what's going on. This shouldn't preclude adult membership, and support (which would be necessary for legal reasons), of course (since we were all kids at some time), but the danger to turn it into another bogus adult-run "counselling and support" group should be avoided. Adults can help with funding, legal aid, etc., and offering the benefits of greater life experience.
The fundemental principle of the organization, and a requirement for membership, should be something like the golden rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." No, I'm not particularly religious, but that sound-bite is pretty good advice. It stresses tolerance without imposing forced acceptance of those that are different.
The basic goal should be raising awarness of the causes and effects of tyranny in schools. By tyranny, I mean anything where a victim is permitted lesser rights than her tormenter. Certainly, this includes any act that would be illegal if perpetrated by an adult, and that an adult has constitutional protection against. Verbal, and of course, physical abuse, count here. If you can't do it (legally) to an adult, it should be illegal to permit a kid to be subject to it, and opposed vocally.
Start small, go with your black ribbon design, and encourage others to copy it, giving credit to KAST. Then you can encourage the formation of local KAST groups, perhaps with web-pages to address concerns local to a particular school. The internet can serve to bring these groups together, and provide input to a national KAST organization. This should be a para-educational group, so as to not fall under the control of a school. It shouldn't be a school "club", for example, though offers of school resources, without having to give up control could be cautiosly accepted.
These might seem like big ideas for a kid in school, but you have the luxery of youth in which to "think big" and the resources of the internet at your disposal.
Carpe Diem. Sieze the day.
In Liberty, Rene
I think that the messages here need to be presented with a louder voice. This needs to be shouted from the streetcorner, from the roofs, and mountain tops. From our front yards, in our places of work, study, and worship. I am pleased that some have taken the initiative to collect stories of wrongdoing. These need to be collected, tallied, reproduced, printed and bound in volume after volume as a testiment to the legacy of torture we have endured, to serve as a symbol of our survival and determination to end the madness.
Our collective voices must rise to become a deafening roar that can not be silenced by the earplugs of indifference. We have an opportinity here.
Carpe Diem.
"Sieze The Day"
The message is clear: so long as we are tortured, some of us will kill as sure as the caged animal might killl it's keeper. This is not a theory, a threat, or a speculation. It is a fact.
End the torture, and you will end the death.
In Liberty, Rene
I've been reading all the comments, and thought about this a lot. Yeah, I was always too smart, too clumsy, too shy. Glasses in first grade. My parents got me a computer instead of an game console - a C-64. ;) I read too well Tolkien before I was 10, and Heinlein, Asimov, etc., shortly thereafter. My favorite place was the main library in the state capital. I have so many stories of harassment myself. My sexual orientation called into question, and me too naive to know what they were saying. Going home with gum and/or chewing tobacco in my hair from the bus ride. Books ruined. Teachers who hated me, or just didn't care.
;)
;)
:)
I think it'd be better, though, to honor those who *did* care, because there were a few.
For the popular kids who didn't take that as a license to abuse. (There were a few.)
For the teacher I didn't even have who called me by name on the third day of 6th grade, one of the worst years of my life.
For the English teacher I'd wanted in 7th grade, only to find she'd gone to the high school, and was my counselor there. (She's back to teaching again.)
For the 7th grade science teacher, who showed me it could be fun, and even musical.
For the PE teacher who was kind to my clumsiness, and encouraged me to read.
For the sociology teacher who never insisted I conform to the "accepted" mode of thought, and even laughed when I confused the others.
For the advanced math teacher in high school who always believed I could learn it, even when she was almost frustrated enough with me to scream.
For my high school librarian, who let me hide out more than once, and treated me as a thinking individual.
And, most especially, my 10th and 12th grade English teacher, who taught me the power of words, and specifically of the force my own words could have.
To all these people, my most humble thanks for making me believe my life was worth something, even though school was sometimes so bad I wanted to end it all.
Les the Book
PS: I went to Winfield Middle and Winfield High, in Winfield, West Virginia. If any of y'all are reading this, you Know Who You Are.
You're right, you need to change the culture.
The culture that worships violence in so many forms. The Wild West mythology, the American Revolution, the Second Ammendment, Football, the Civil War, etc, etc. America was founded on violence. However, America was also founded on puritian values. That's the problem here. Indoctrinate a child to belive that all the good in your country and society has come about through violently rebellious acts, and then oppress them for being different and 'impure' for not liking the 'right' kinds of violence. What happens to him? He decides to get violent...
Big surprise, eh?
The Second ammendment is part of the culture that is the problem.
Wait till some kid who knows more about explosives takes out a school of 1000. Or 2000.
Good, old fashioned, home grown domestic terrorism.
Oh, but wait, you have guns to protect yourself from your children...
It is important that these people are punished for their actions.
It is equally important, however, that they continue to get the education they need. Therefore, I propose a two-step system:
1) For the first two nonviolent offenses of any rule, the student gets a week's worth of in-school suspension. For those unfamiliar with the concept of in-school suspension, it basically involves the student spending the school day locked in a classroom with one or more proctors, their books, and a load of classwork which must be completed before the student can leave (the amount is reasonable, however; no more than can be finished in the average school day).
For the third nonviolent offense or the first violent one: military school for at least a year. The reasons are threefold:
1) Deterrent. The mere mention of military school is enough to send chills down the spine of even the most jaded of bullies.
2) Discipline. If mental discipline (such as in-school suspension) doesn't work, the physical rigors of training ought to do the trick.
3) Surveillance. The students are kept carefully under control.This keeps them out of trouble while in military school; the idea is that those habitswill carry over when it is time for the student to be re-integrated into the mainstream school system.
And one other thing: on the second violent offense: permanent expulsion from the public school system.
Evolution does not imply that something gets "better" or "more sphoisticated." It implies only a change with a purpose behind it which differentiates it from the original. For example, let's go to evolution for a second: whales, dolphins, and the like evolved from land-dwelling mammals who took to the water for food. Under your definition of evolution this should not have happened.
Cultures do evolve, but the purpose is nothing more than the whims of the general populace. Think about it: American culture wasn't always the way it is now. There was in fact once a kinder, gentler time; geeks were still looked down upon but it was nothing like it is today. What we've seen is a backlash. Whyit was caused isn't something I claim to know; it could be blamed on the media, the mass abandonment by parents of their young, or any number of other things (but not the Net; this evolution was well under way long before 95% of the population even knew what the Net was).
What did goth culture evolve out of? Frankly, I haven't got a clue. Sure; it's no better or worse than any other subculture, but is is more evolved (it started from some mainstream ideal, and it has since become more and more different from the mainstream; that makes it evolved).
"Instead of banning Doom and Quake, schools should be forming Doom and Quake clubs, presided over by teachers who actually know something about the online world.."
:)
This is a great idea, and I would love to see it implimented, but it will never happen at my school. Our budget is so tight, there are fights sometimes in the adminstration just to buy new tape. If these clubs did exist though, count me in.
P.S. Rob, maybe a "Reply" button on the page where there are no comments, like this Jon Katz article?
--
Scott Miga
Reading these missives makes me hurt so badly I have trouble reading through them. It really amazes me that people can do that to children, and then keep doing it even when the consequences of abuse are so, so clear.
I understand the problem. They don't know. They have no idea there is a problem; their behaviour is exactly what causes kids to snap and even kill.
Ironically, the very thing which they think might be responsible could actually help them. It's a simple solution -- it's worked for Amnesty International for decades. E-mail the schools. Don't let them act without letting them know you know what they're doing, and you don't approve. Tell them about the Hellmouth. Tell them why what they're doing is wrong.
I would love to see the Geek community united to the point where it is a force for social change as well as just the technical. This seems like an excellent place to start.
Will.
Another thing about Goths: they're somewhere between the jocks and the nerds/weirdos, because they tend to form conformistic, exclusionary cliques. They're not as powerful and brazen as the jocks (they're a minority who wear weird clothes, after all), and they're generally too subtle to use brute violence, but the hard-core Goths are just as contemptuous of nonconformists and outsiders as the jocks and preppies.
Having said that, the environment on the periphery of the Goth thing tends to be more tolerant of weirdness and individuality. I know a great many individuals who do not label themselves as Goths, and often have quite a low opinion of the card-carrying Goths, yet share some attributes of this subculture (some musical preferences, tendency to wear black, &c.) whilst rejecting others.
-- acb
Ladies and gentlemen of the class of 2000, wear kevlar.
If I could offer you only one tip for the future, kevlar would be it. The bullet-stopping power of kevlar has been proven by scientists, whereas the rest of my advice has no basis more reliable than the ramblings of a hack Washington Post journalist with no idea what 'gothic' really means.
I will dispense this advice now, whether you like it or not.
Enjoy the power and beauty of your youth - oh, never mind, you will not understand the power and beauty of your youth until they have been taken from you by that kid you stuffed in a gym locker because he had weird hair.
If you survive the ensuing onslaught, in 20 years you'll look back at video of yourself on TV and realize that it was probably the most exciting thing that will ever happen to you.
Even so, you are not as depressed as you imagine. Life gets much worse than this. So go rent 'Pump Up The Volume' and 'Heathers' and get over it.
Don't worry about the future; or worry, but know that worrying is as effective as trying to pin all of society's troubles on movies, video games, Marilyn Manson and trenchcoats. The real troubles in your life are apt to be things that never crossed your worried mind; the kind that blindside you at 11:21 am on some idle Tuesday.
Do not do things that scare you; society will take care of that for you.
Cry.
Don't be reckless with other people's lives. Don't put up with people who are reckless with yours. Just avoid them before they put you on their hit list.
Don't waste your time on jealousy. Sometimes you're ahead, sometimes you're behind...but there's always plenty of time for that oddball kid who only wears black to catch up to you, and overtake you. Just worry about yourself. P? Remember the insults you receive, and forget the compliments. Nobody really cares about your accomplishments, only their own, so the compliments are usually just empty chatter, more meaningless than birds chirping at each other on the phone lines.
Keep your old books; they're never out of date. Throw away your old first-person shooters; they're obsolete 3 weeks after release.
Learn to use apostrophe's properly; and semicolon's, too.
Study hard, but don't feel guilty if you don't know what you want to do with your life... the most unsuspecting people you know in high school will probably become the heads of large software companies by the time you're 40. Whereas the jocks will probably never get further than semi-pro ball, in spite of their attitudes in high school.
Get plenty of exercise anyway.
Be kind to your knees. You'll appreciate them when you're down on them begging for your life.
Maybe you'll be injured, maybe you won't. Maybe you'll be killed, maybe you won't. Maybe you'll die in a hail of gunfire. Maybe you'll live to see your children risk their own lives by going to school. Whatever you do, don't congratulate yourself too much or berate yourself either. Your choices are half chance. So are everybody else's.
Enjoy your body. Use it every way you can. Don't be afraid of it, or what other people think of it. It's the greatest instrument you'll ever own. Unless you own a semiautomatic pistol. When it comes down to a contest between a scrawny kid with a gun, and a beefy high school linebacker named Biff, guess who's gonna win? So get a gun, if you can. You'll need it to defend yourself one day.
Practice shooting. Even if you have nowhere to do it but in your own back yard.
Learn how to use the safety, even if you don't have kids.
Do NOT read gun magazines. They will only turn you into Timothy McVeigh.
Ignore your parents. When you snap and take your own life, they'll say that they had no idea what was wrong with you. They didn't. Ditto with your siblings. They know nothing about the pain you go through every day. Nobody understands you but you. So screw 'em all.
Understand that cliques come and go, but there are plenty of good gangs out there where people like you can get together and play Magic: The Gathering every weekend. Work hard to conform to the gang standards - because the older you get, the more you need the people who bought you beer when you were young.
Live in New York city once, but leave before you get mugged. Live in Colorado once, but leave before you get killed.
Sigh.
Accept certain inalienable truths: jocks will hate you; teachers will misunderstand you; nobody likes a kid who dresses in black. And when you do, you'll fantasize that in your time, people liked you, your friends respected you, and your president didn't decry school violence while he simultaneously ordered missile strikes on the women and children of a small European country.
Don't expect anyone else to care about you. Maybe you have a close friend, maybe you even have a girlfriend, but you never know when either of them will turn their back on you. It happens a lot. Get used to it.
Go ahead and mess with your hair; who cares if it looks 85 by the time you're 40? The way things are going, you'll be lucky to live to see 40 anyway. Buy a black trenchcoat while you're at it. Wear makeup. Pierce your tongue. Whatever. It's your body.
Be careful whose music you buy, but be patient with those who supply decent goth music, because there's just not that much good goth music out there.
Violence is a form of expression. Dispensing it is a way of leaving your mark on the world, stomping it into the ground, painting in ugly colors your rage and hatred towards the world. Yet despite all this, realize that by performing an act of violence, you will barely leave a smudge on the world. You are merely a media spectacle, and in 6 months, you will be utterly forgotten. So in the long run, you'll be much better off just reading a few books and trying to accomplish something with your life.
But trust me on the kevlar.
One question, in what country is your soapbox that you preach from?
What liberties are you granted that exist where you are and not in the USA.
Interesting.
People that believe a country that is totally free is somehow equated with a utopia. Utopia it ain't, but free it certainly is. People are free to disagree. This blows the mind of some of my friends and in-laws from China and Japan (respectively) where consensus is the rule and not majority vote.
The fact that people openly disagree and yell and scream at each other looks like totaly chaos on the surface, but the underlying order is that they both hold sacred the right to disagree. This is the freedom that is the freedom in the US.
We are free to criticize the government and tell them they are out of touch and full of it.
The other interesting element of the mistakes and idiotic moves the US government makes is that the whole world is watching. No other country on earth goes through the fine-tooth comb of criticism that the US goes through.
The only way to not be criticised for wrongdoing is to do nothing....oh wait that doesn't work either.
People who expect governments to behave the same as individual people are fooling themselves.
Wimp. Instead of assuming they were friendly and saying 'Hello.' you reacted out of fear.
If we all continue to react fearfully instead of treating each other in a civil manner, we will continue to isolate each other.
I've been wearing a black trenchcoat for months, and I will continue to do so. I believe it would be tacky for someone to rush out and buy a trenchcoat in response to Littleton, but I also believe that it would be tacky to react by discarding a trenchcoat I already wear.
My point here is that I will continue to wear my trenchcoat because I had already decided it is what I wanted to wear. I am refusing to become more normal simply so that other people can live in a more comfortable world while clinging to labels and reacting instead of thinking.
We all need to learn to judge people as individuals or not at all. If you don't know enough about someone to make an informed, personal judgement about them you should simply treat them in a civil manner and assume that they are a decent person. You will be right more often than not.
Jon, No disrespect, I do think that what happened in Colorado was very tragic but I think it's time to move on....
A saying come to mind (I don't recall who said it):
Change what you cannot accept, Accept what you cannot change....
Do not read this
Right on.
I had excellent teachers in high school, with a few notable exceptions.
I didn't always agree with them or they way they ran their class, but you are right: they are not incompetent, uncaring prison guards.
What some of us 'best and brightest' sometimes have to get over is that most teachers are struggling trying to do the best they can with the minimum amount of equipment and resources. I applaud teachers, for they are underpaid and underthanked for what they do.
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Are you trying to say that the U.S. was onvolved in the use of the internees as slave labor or that they were incinerated in ovens?
And you're suggesting that our nearly complete genocide of the native American peoples doesn't compare to Nazi atrocities? Or our kidnapping and enslavement of huge numbers of Africans and their children, and their children's children for several hundred years isn't also an atrocity (Never mind the Jim Crow laws still legal less than fifty years ago)?
If that's a little too old for you, how about our abysmal record of "training" of foreign military police in the School of the Americas, on US soil, which led to mass slaughter of civilians and native peoples in El Salvador, Hondorus, Nicaragua, East Timor, and countless other places. Hell, The United States propped up and supported the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, a government that killed over 1 million of it's own people. And we actively vetoed a UN Security Counsel Resolution defining the +1 Million dead in Rwanda as "Genocide" in order to avoid the responsibility of taking action as we pulled our "Peace Keeping" troops and embassy staff out of that country.
America cannot be absolved of these crimes simply because it may have helped cause the economic destruction of a totalitarian enemy. Not that I support the Soviet Union or China, just that these wrongs led to a mass slaughter on the same scale, and we shouldn't dismiss that fact.
I thought it was the "movement indicator" so I didn't look at it close enough.
Yep, typical hypocritic response :-/ Pretty sad that we're spending billions in an attempt to stop the persecution of others in Kosovo while our school officials promote it's daily occurrence by either turning a blind eye or, even worse, activly engaging in it.
- 4-25
- 4-27
- 4-28
From Kevin Siers at The Charlotte ObserverI found these going thru the political cartoons at Cagle. Of course the vast majority of them blame the parents, the movies, the music, etc.
I've e-mailed them BOTH to express my appreciation.
The mainstream media is likely to distort any story to be as controversial and poigiant as possible while squeezing it into 22 minutes of dramatic 911 calls, crying kids and choice quotes from dime-store sociologists.
How about snail-mailing every principal, vice principal and guidance councellor in North America?
Perhaps a standardized letter?
Some of them did some good things, like promoting geeky clubs in schools and not forcing people to eat in their cafeterias. Others it seems like to degrade students as much as possible.
Or perhaps at the very least, we could create a website where the outpouring of email could have identifying markings stripped off, and focus on what seems to be the problem... parents, teachers, police officers and principals who are critical or neglegant --- along with another area where success stories could be posted. Things which saved people from bitter isolation and torment.
There has to be a better way to handle this than to have bullies and jerks all over the country laugh at heart-felt testamonies from tortured schoolkids on NBC, while sociologists tell these kids to talk to their parents, teachers or guidance councellors.
Katz wrote a lot about how boring schools are, and that schools need to be made into a place that people wouldn't want to destroy.
I certainly agree that the sort of peer abuse that goes on should be stopped. But what about the educational side?
Sometimes education can be made fun, and it should be. But sometimes you do have to forcefeed people the things they need to know. And is it so bad if schools gear themselves for the non-geeks? A) They outnumber us, and B) Geeks are, by definition, willing to learn on thier own.
Schools (well, US schools... I have no right to mention any others) have a number of problems, many of which have already been mentioned here. But lets not forget that schools are not primarly social institutes... they are primarily educational institutes. Some classes will always be boring. I didn't care to learn a lot of the history I was forced to... it was boring. That doesn't mean that I shouldn't have been forced to take that class. I'm willing to admit it had redeeming value.
You can't make everyone happy, and there will always be kids that don't like school. There will always be a couple that downright hate it.
Does anybody know why it is high school so much? I actually tended to get beat up more in Junior high, but even in High school I was certainly the outcast (which was fine by me, really). The minute I went to college (the next year), everything was different.
Of course everything about college is drastically different than High School, but maybe High Schools need to take a middle step. To acknowledge that people in that age group need a different structure than did people in Junior High. More freedom, more rights, and yes, more responsibility.
I just heard about this book recently in light of recent events. It is extremely interesting to see how deep these problems of exclusion and rejection are. By the first grade, many students are already rejected by their peers. The book explores what happens when the author, Vivian Gussin Paley a kindergarten teacher, sets a new rule for her students: 'You can't say you can't play'. Short book. Great read.
...I appear to be normal :-) :-> :-) Those were
I've gone full circle kind of.
If only my coworkers knew, hehehe
I have to suppress it a bit though,
bite my tongue so to speak. I like
to dress in casual clothes so that's
not hard, I always hated jeans. And
right now I'm going through a crewcut
phase so no one is put out by my multi-
colored mohawks of yore
too much work anyways, and kind of pretentious.
I disagree. The way for to fix things is to become the mangers, the leaders, the bosses. Play the game as much as you have to. Get ahead - we're smarter, more capable, more creative, and more understanding than the majority. Get to the top, and then do things your way.
I was miserable in high school, and I drifted through (eventually dropping out) college, but once I was working for a living I realized the best way to have a good boss and to help other people was to be the boss myself. Nowadays I run a department of techs, and I have worked my butt off to give them a better environment and more dignity than they had before. I also do everything I can IRL for the same purpose.
We shouldn't complain about it - we should take over. There's no reason we can't play the game too, and better than they do. The majority doesn't know we have our own rules and our own culture, and they don't care. We, on the other hand, know their game, understand their rules, and lord knows we're smart enough to dominate them on the field of play... So why don't we?
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
This is a little piece Camille Paglia of Salon wrote in response to a reader letter. Yeah, I'm posting it, but it's short, and very good.
Last week's horrifying massacre at Columbine High
School in a suburb of Denver has brought widespread
attention to clique-formation in high school -- a pitiless
process that has remained amazingly consistent for the
past 60 years. The arrogant jocks and debs still sublimely
sail over the cowering nerds and wallflowers, who
compensate by organizing their own pecking order, in
minute gradations of status painfully obvious to everyone.
"We are hierarchical animals," I declared in my first book.
Rousseauist liberals and armchair leftists (like Michel
Foucault) think hierarchy is imposed on free-flowing
human innocence by unjust external forces, like the
government and the police. But hierarchy is
self-generated on every occasion by any group,
especially in a philosophical vacuum. As an atheist, I
acknowledge that religion may be socially necessary as
an ethical counterweight to natural human ferocity. The
primitive marauding impulse can emerge very swiftly in
the alienated young.
Your question about the terrorism suffered by artistic and
sensitive boys is certainly close to my heart. I have
theorized that most male homosexuality begins not at
birth but in a failure of male bonding -- in the early
rebuffing of sensitive boys by other males, first fathers
and brothers and then the taunting in-groups of the
schoolyard. This wound can make a homoerotic
Michelangelo or a homicidal maniac, depending on
circumstance and talent.
Guns are not the problem in America, where nature is still
so near. These shocking incidents of school violence are
ultimately rooted in the massive social breakdown of the
Industrial Revolution, which disrupted the ancient patterns
of clan and community. Our middle-class culture is
affluent but spiritually empty. The attractive houses of the
Columbine killers are mere shells, seething with the
poisons of the isolated nuclear family and its Byzantine
denials.
How ironic that our super-sophisticated warplanes were
raining bombs on Belgrade even as American students
were slaughtering each other -- a devastating revelation
about the psychological maladies of the United States
that Yugoslavia's amoral President Slobodan Milosevic
was quick to point out and gloat over. When the American
house is in such disorder, we look like fools and
hypocrites in exporting our vision of democracy to
far-flung corners of the world -- particularly when
orchestrated violence is our tool.
Alas, the Columbine bloodbath already seems to be the
rationale for increased surveillance of young people, who
are now exhorted to snitch on each other to the
authorities. The brooding apartness of Leonardo da
Vinci, Lord Byron or Emily Bronte; the shrinking shyness
of John Keats; the passive-aggressive reclusiveness of
Emily Dickinson; the erratic moodiness of Edgar Allan
Poe or Charles Baudelaire -- all will now be defined as
antisocial, potentially dangerous behavior not to be
tolerated by the omnipotent group, which will dispatch
counselors of every stripe to coerce conformity. The
totalitarian brave new world is upon us.
For me, the lesson of Columbine is that primary and
secondary education, as it gradually expanded over the
past century, has massive systemic problems. We are
warehousing students from childhood to early adulthood,
channeling them toward middle-class professional jobs
that they may or may not want. Young, male, hormonally
driven energy is trapped and stultified by school, with its
sterile regimentation into cubical classrooms and
cramped rows of seats.
I found naggingly unsettling the aggressively upbeat,
we're-all-family public discourse of the Columbine faculty
and staff, particularly when juxtaposed with the bland,
sometimes indistinguishably WASPy faces of the
students themselves. The conflict between individualism
and the norm can be brutal: bourgeois "niceness" is its
own imperialism. Fantasies of student revenge go way
back to "Carrie" (1976), Brian De Palma's film version of
Stephen King's novel, where a tormented teen unleashes
her occult force to incinerate her high school. The rock
revolution began with a pounding Bill Haley song blared
over the credits of "Blackboard Jungle" (1955), with its
juvenile delinquents on the rampage against teachers
and authority.
Today's busy, busy, busy high school education seems to
prepare young people for nothing. There are too many
posh cars in the parking lot and too much stress on
extracurricular activities. Just as I have argued for
lowering the age of sexual consent to 14, so do I now
propose that young people be allowed to leave school at
14 -- as they did during the immigrant era, when families
needed every wage to survive. Unfortunately, in our
service-sector economy, entry-level manual labor is no
longer widely available.
At home, American teenagers are being simultaneously
babied and neglected, while at school they have become,
in effect, prisoners of the state. Primary school should be
stripped down to the bare bones of grammar, art, history,
math and science. We need to offer optional vocational
and technical schools geared to concrete training in a
craft or trade. Practical, skills-based knowledge gives
students a sense of mastery, even if they don't stay in that
profession. A wide range of careers might be
pedagogically developed, such as horticulture and
landscape design; house construction and outfitting;
automotive and aviation mechanics; restaurant culinary
arts; banking, accounting, investment and small business
management.
The mental energy presently being recreationally diverted
by teens to the Internet and to violent video games (one
of the last arenas for masculine action, however
imaginary) is clearly not being absorbed by school. We
have a gigantic educational assembly line that coercively
processes students and treats them with Ritalin or
therapy if they can't sit still in the cage. The American high
school as social scene clearly spawns internecine furies
in sexually stunted young men -- who are emotionally
divorced from their parents but too passive to run away,
so that they turn their inchoate family hatreds on their
peers. Like the brainy rich-kid criminals Leopold and
Loeb (see the 1959 film "Compulsion"), the Columbine
killers were looking for meaning and chose the
immortality of infamy, the cold ninth circle of the damned.
In closing, let me declare again my utter opposition to
NATO's airstrikes on Yugoslavia, an inept strategy that is
being lavishly funded by American taxpayers instead of
the Europeans who supposedly need protection from
Balkan unrest. Serbian nationalism did not begin with
Milosevic and will not end with him. Inflating this petty
dictator into the new Hitler and then exaggerating NATO's
benevolence will not solve the problem. We have
stumbled into an ancient civil war, and we immediately
used the horrors of aerial bombardment (terrorizing the
civilian population and permanently traumatizing children)
without attempting even the most rudimentary first steps
of multinational embargo and blockade.
No matter what paper-thin agreement is reached among
our cynical leaders to temporarily resolve this issue, we
have poisoned a whole generation (notably in Russia and
Greece) against us by demonstrating to the world not that
we will intervene for justice but that we will interfere
unjustly and arbitrarily whenever there is a pause in our
all-absorbing sex and crime spectacles, that endless
cycle of reruns that binds Hollywood to the Oval Office.
support gun control: take guns from cops
Are you saying that in your worldview death does not occur? Evil is non-existent? The unexplainable doesn't happen? Seems like a problem with your worldview (and you are not alone).
I think all the "how could it happen?" questions are a similar reaction to yours.
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It is good to see some sanity and maturity in this debate.
. ......ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
I would write a long message, but I'm getting bored.....the...world.....must....entertain....me
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It starts with:
No it doesn't. You are confusing "rights" and "freedoms". A right is a specific type of political entity granted (in the case of the US) in the US Constitution. It is true that kids usually define their own culture, but it is not a "right". People generally tend to use the term "rights" because of the weighty connotations and implicit demand for acceptance it carries with it.
This is nonsense! A cultures choices can be stupid and offensive and should be honestly labled as such. It could be said that "gang culture" accepts violence and death as acceptable. This should rightfully be labled as evil. You seem to imply that all cultures are equal. I don't agree. No culture has the "right" to exist.
The First Amendment doesn't end at the school door. First, you don't understand what the First Amendment means (and you aren't the only one). The First Amendment gives you the freedom to criticize and speak out about the government without fearing to be thrown in jail. It does not give you the freedom to say anything you want.Total and utter nonsense. This type of statement may win fans from the high school crowd, but that doesn't make it true.
I do agree that there is some over-reacting, but it will fade as the hysteria fades. Life isn't perfect, get over it.
Your whole article seems to shout "I want to do what I want and the mean old people won't let me! Waaaaaaaah!!!!!!"
You can look different if you want, it is a freedom, but not a right. Learning is not always "fun" and just because you are learning math by a book and lecture, and not by pointing-and-clicking, this doesn't mean that books and teachers are useless or an invalid way of learning. Don't be so immature as to demand that everyone cater to your whims and make everything "fun and exciting" just for you.
I think your reasoning on these issues is very immature and worded to score points with high school kids. It doesn't really fly once you think about it past the surface. I'm 26 now, but I did think in similar selfish immature ways when I was in high school.
Here is a quote to ponder:
1 Corinthians 13:11Your password has expired, please login to change it.
I think part of the current problem with the backlash is that millions of geeks everywhere stood up and said "I know what it's like, but I wouldn't in a million years kill someone.". Those in power only hear what they want to hear. They heard "I know what it's like", but the "I wouldn't in a million years kill someone." just flew right past them.
We know what the abuse is like, but we're healthy. 99.999% of us survive the abuse and move on with our lives. We are not the shooters in Colorado. We may dress like they did, we may listen to the same music, watch the same movies, but we don't kill people. That's the main difference. The very fact that we can have compassion for the shooters as well as the victims is what makes us different from the kids that kill.
We now have two goals. We need to point out as obvious the fact that there is a difference from the kids that are out there and not trying to kill everyone from those that have. That's a short term goal. Eventually the pendulum will swing the other way, and the backlash will subside. At that point we move on to the next agenda.
The long term goal is to raise awareness of peer abuse and the damage it causes. Those who don't go through it don't realize what it's like. They think that it's just a fact of life, and that everyone experiences it. That is not correct. It should be taken just as seriously, and dealt with the in the same manner, as racial or sexual harrasment.
I'm not sure if peer abuse prevention would have stoped the shootings in Littleton from happening, but it is clear that those events have brought to the surface the need to do something about it. Perhaps for the geeks out there, this can be something good that comes from the high price of this tragedy.
I can't say how many times I fantasized about getting rid of my enemies in high school. Never did anything about it, though. Slashdot is the FIRST place I have seen actually realize what the REAL problem (and possibly the real cause) is.
-- I am. Therefore, I think!
This brings up a very good point: What enables others to abuse geeks/goths/nerds/etc in high school is the administrative blind eye.
.): In my school it was routine for disciplinarians and teachers to either not see violence or pass it off as "just playing around." I never understood it until now, but, more than the abusers themselves, it is those who chose not to invervene that are the true criminals in the situation of students abusing one another.
(Another sob story I know . .
So I'll one-up you: Write to the district offices, write to the teachers unions, write to the governor and the state legislature. Write to the US Board of Education.
Although I am the son of educators, and must give my parents respect for their often thankless line of work, teachers and administrators KNOW what is happening to their students and aren't always doing the right thing. It may be the time to think bigger and appeal to higher authorities.
-q
This brings up a very good point: What enables others to abuse geeks/goths/nerds/etc in high school is the administrative blind eye.
(Another sob story I know . .
So I'll one-up you: Write to the district offices, write to the teachers unions, write to the governor and the state legislature. Write to the US Board of Education.
Although I am the son of educators, and must give my parents respect for their often thankless line of work, teachers and administrators KNOW what is happening to their students and aren't always doing the right thing. It may be the time to think bigger and appeal to higher authorities.
-q
Maybe it only happens here but the Geek support structure is alive and well at this college.
I guess I had it easy, the geek population at my HS was probably well over 10%, a minority big enough not to be intimidated.
Start Running Better Polls
I don't understand. Almost 50 years ago reports were pouring out of our colleges and education institutions saying that our public education wasn't fit for some people. Alternative "learning styles" is one. Fifty years ago, they discovered that some people learn differently.. some are auditory learners, others visual, others hands-on. In the article, it basically laid out the fact that public schools only suit a minority of students. It is ineffectual on those who don't prefer wrote memorization and auditory learning.
Fifty years later, schools are just *starting* to implement these ideas. Why must it take so long for schools to adapt? Will we need to wait fifty more years for schools to become wired? When will civil rights be an issue? When will people in school be treated like human beings?
Standarized education.. has failed.
--
The whole country is at the boiling point, and everything is about to explode. There are racial tensions, social class tensions, and of course, the topic at hand.
The problem, as I see it, is that every group in the world wants to be recognized as unique. This creates a very deep "us vs. them" mentality. Everyone who feels they have been repressed or beaten down has to have someone on which to place the blame. More often than not, it comes down to an amorphous "other" who catches the blame, whether it be jocks, whitey, jews, and so forth. (Non-PC terms intended...each "us" tends to have derogatory terms for each "them.")
It comes down to personal responsibility. Are you a strong enough person, with enough self-respect to say, "This is who I am. I am not the product of someone else's feelings toward me and my beliefs. I do not blame anyone but myself for who I am."
Now, before you get out the flamethrowers, I must tell you that I have been in those shoes -- hated and feared, taunted and beaten -- because I was smart. I learned, over time, to compromise. Maybe it was a chickenshit way out, but it worked, and I kept my sanity. I spent a little bit of time in their world, and invited them to spend a little bit of time in mine.
Instead of crying, "Poor Me" at the top of your lungs, try to figure out how to make your own situation better. No one -- I repeat -- no one is going to do that for you. If you can do that, no one will be able to find a reason not to respect you.
Although this is somewhat of a rant, it really didn't start out to be that way. I don't mean to minimize anyone's feelings or experiences. Yes, it's difficult, and in an ideal world, everyone would be automagically respected because of who they are and how they think ,etc., but...this world is definitely far from ideal...
Not being from the USA I am highly out of touch with the situation, but I do know something about working for nerd/geek "rights".
A couple of years back I was involved in creating a Finnish association for nerds, called Irti Elämästä (an ironic name, roughly the equivalent of "Just say no to Life"). It all started mostly as a joke, but soon got more serious as there really seemed to be a need for it. The association still has rather few members as publicly addmitting to being a nerd or geek is rather hard, but...
Weve managed to gain a fair deal of media coverage from local papers to our nationwide TV-news. This partly because the media thinks we are working for worthy cause, that most people can appreciate and partly because we have some excellent media relations people.
And the point? If any of you US geeks and nerds are interested in an organized campaign for your rights, I can probably give you plenty of advice on getting publicity, as our methods should work over there too. I'm afraid our home page is written entirely in Finnish, but I can do some translating if people (or nerds) are interested.
I don't believe their fondness for Hitler was part of a reasoned or fundemental commitment to Nazism or racist ideology. Instead, it was an icon of anger and hatred that they could grab onto. Hitler is the most easily accessed image of evil in modern history - he's a secular version of "The Devil." They used Nazi imagery and language as part of the expression of their anger and their terror.
I know, because I did the same thing in middle school - associating with Nazi imagery (as well as that of other megalomaniacs and tyrants) as an expression for my inchoate and terrified rage. I was too thrown into my own ongoing emotional crisis to think of the effect it might have on others; it was definitely not a political gesture as we would understand it. My hatred was for my tormentors and those I percieved as aligned with them somehow, not for minorities. I really believe that these kids were in the same boat.
Someone (I would, but I can't) should launch a big web campain to fight intolerance in high schools, and promote cultural diversity (I am of course talking of alternative cultures: goths, nerds, etc.). Like a nice big website, little icons ans banners for supporters to put on their webpages, maybe a list of high schools that promote cultural differences (and maybe a black list as well... could be pretty big). The purpose of all this would be to make the dumb media realize this is an issue, and eventually to get the schools and the parents to react.
What do you think? Any volunteers?
-- Slef
Setting aside for the moment your question, let's look at Katz's performance: from his culture he presumes to dictate what MY culture can do. He thereby violates his own ludicrous standard, and he deserves to be called on the carpet for his hypocrisy.
Now back to your question. First, it is practically self-evident that people judge cultures all the time as being superior/inferior to others. Evidence: Vietnamese refugees in the 70s. Cubans or Haitians who climb aboard flimsy rafts in an effort to escape the culture of their homelands. You may claim that these are examples of fleeing oppression rather than culture, but government policies are no less an aspect of culture than what one wears. People judge cultures all the time (witness hypocritical Katz bellyaching about the "stodgy" culture of our parents).
The question is not whether we will judge another culture (or even our own) to be inferior/superior in some way or other (or even in every way, though that seems improbable); the real question is: By what standard shall we make these judgments?
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
Internet access is no different than having access to a phone line or to a TV broadcast. It's an economic good. While we surely ought to have our freedom of access to these goods protected, it is a completely different thing to suggest that we as a society are somehow obligated to subsidize (or even provide gratis) Internet access for people who cannot otherwise afford it. Neither the constitution nor common sense guarantees this, and it is this that Katz seems to be defending. It's idiotic.
Of course, once you're on the Internet, I'd agree that freedom of assembly must be defended. But the right to freedom of assembly doesn't mean that the millionaire's club has to let me in. They have a right to assemble based upon economic criteria -- or any other criteria they choose. I don't have a right to force my way into their assembly. Freedom of assembly must include the freedom to exclude others (based upon our criteria) from our assembly, or it is no freedom at all. I don't have to let you into my clique; you don't have to let me into yours.
And neither of us should have to pay for someone else to get on the Net.
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
You're right of course; but see my "Self-Criticism" post above. I already caught it and retracted part of what I wrote (and apologized).
You seem to assume that the particular selection of rights granted in the amendments to the U.S. constitution are some kind of holy writ, in spite of the fact that they are subject to change, have only existed for a few generations, and don't apply to something like 95% of the world population.
Whether I do this or not (I don't really) is irrelevant. The purpose of the reference was comparison. Internet access is so trivial -- like buying a hunk of my favorite kind of cheese -- that it really doesn't compare with one's right to free speech.
Why *not* make Internet access a right, if it turns out to be something essential for participation in civic life? Postal service and literacy are enforced as "rights" via government subsidy in every industrial nation I can think of; universal health care and telephone service are also common. If Internet access became as essential to civic life as mail and reading, *not* making it a right would be absurd.
First off, the fact that governments provide postal service (for a fee) is not the same as providing universal health care. No one even pretends that the postal service is a "right."
Secondly, the common practice is hardly a sufficient justification for doing anything. So what if Europe provides universal health care? Does that make it a human "right"? Does that mean it is right for government to provide it? NO it does not. The question must still be asked and answered irrespective of what anyone else is doing: is it the right and proper role of government to provide Internet access to the people? The answer to that is NO. It is not. To do so would be just the latest in a century-long series of government snitching money from those who have it to give to others. It is theft. It is Robin Hood government, and it is illegitimate.
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
Depends on why you're doing it. There's very little -- if anything -- that I object to people reading; the reason why we read is more important. I don't think, for instance, that I could say I'm being ethical if I dream about ways to kill people I don't like -- even if I rationalize it by saying I'd never really do it. This doesn't mean that there might not be legitimate reasons for contemplating how to kill: if I'm a soldier fighting in a just war (skipping that large subject for now), it's perfectly legitimate for me to carefully plan how I am going to kill the enemy.
So I'd have no problem if you read this cookbook (never heard of it before myself) even if you just had a fascination with pyrotechnics or armaments -- but if you did it because you were either planning to actually use them or even just fantasizing about how nice it would be to kill some people you hate...well, that's different.
It's not the simple act of just thinking about something or having a thought cross your mind that is necessarily an ethical issue. The whys of it are important, though not always. For instance, I don't think married men should even entertain the notion of sex with other women (and vice versa for their wives/other men). I don't think this can be properly understood as a legitimate part of an ethical thought life. In other cases, the reasons and circumstances relating to a particular subject we're considering weigh heavily in determining whether it's ethical.
I'm glad you're interested in the matter. Sadly I think it is a matter that is almost completely ignored today, and I don't think our society is the better for it.
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
Some of the things Katz says are wrong, laughably wrong. Internet Access is a "right"??? Puh-leeeze! That is the most idiotic thing I've heard today. Internet access is no more a "right" than TV ownership. Sure, if you can afford it there's no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to have it -- but to speak of Internet access as a "right" is to trivialize the liberties guaranteed us by the Constitution in this country: rights to free speech, a free press, etc. It's not a "right". It's an economic good that ought to be as freely available (as distinguished from free) as any other economic good.
Lastly and more seriously: Katz seems to think all cultures are created equal. I'm sure he'd still think so if we dropped him into a cannibalistic culture or into Incan human sacrifice culture as a victim. "Don't complain, Katz; after all, as you said, 'Each generation has the right to determine its own culture', right? Nice knowing you..."
This is pathetic nonsense. Not all cultures are morally legitimate. They're certainly not all equal.
No generation has the right to dictate to another what its culture ought to be.
Really? Is that what you're dictating to MY culture? How "culturally tolerant" of you to dictate what my culture is allowed to do.
I've rarely read anything that is a more transparent recipe for societal collapse. After we get past the high-sounding words and the libertarian sound bites, what Katz argues for is nothing less than complete anarchy and consequent chaos. It is absurdity itself.
It is pomposity on a papal or imperial scale for Katz to arrogate to himself the authority to declare which cultures are legitimate (i.e., "all of them"). It's also absurdly lame.
A death-obsessed culture is ethically illegitimate.
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
Sorry, but NO. I'm not about to defend our present culture at all, but there's no way that a death-obsessed one is on an ethical par with it. And while there is of course a difference between thinking and doing, and while there surely should not be laws which pretend to dictate what we may think about (though so-called "hate-crime" laws and political-correctness policies are egregious examples of it), this doesn't mean that ethics doesn't apply to our thinking. It simply means that we have a personal responsibility to monitor what we think about ourselves. While it may be legal for me to do it, is it really ethical for me to spend my free time imagining new ways to make my enemies suffer (so long as I don't actually do it)? I submit that it is not ethical in any way. We shouldn't be prosecuted for it, but that doesn't mean it's okay.
Ethics isn't just interpersonal. It's an internal thing as well. Self-control is an ethical thing. It is determining that you will/will not do X, because it is unethical. The first step on the road to doing unethical things is to give up that ethic of self-control.
So the answer is no: I cannot accept your notion. I don't have the right to think whatever I want. I have an obligation to think ethically. You can't enforce it legally, but it's no less important for all that.
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
So let me clarify, if possible. I retract the following:
It is pomposity on a papal or imperial scale for Katz to arrogate to himself the authority to declare which cultures are legitimate (i.e., "all of them"). It's also absurdly lame.
This paragraph contradicts almost everything else I said, so I apologize to Katz for that.
There's nothing wrong with criticizing other cultures -- unless you have first made a point of saying that all cultures are basically equal. That would be hypocrisy. It is this that I find Katz guilty of, in that he condemns the culture of previous generations but then says in the same breath that all cultures are basically equal, that (to use his words) "No generation has the right to dictate to another what its culture ought to be." He is guilty of the very thing he condemns, and he is also flatly wrong when he says that we shouldn't judge other cultures.
I hope that clears things up a bit.
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
My single main argument in my second point is that all cultures are not created equal, and that we have the right and even the obligation to judge between them (including being critical of our own). The fact that you would condemn racist culture demonstrates that you agree with me, even if I did a bad job of communicating.
As to Katz: I don't think I can be charitable. It's he who said "No generation has the right to dictate to another what its culture ought to be." I disagree with this. Teenagers are not adults; they do not possess the wisdom nor experience of adults (granted, not all adults do either, but that's another problem). It is absurd to suggest that children's (or anyone's) cultural choices are somehow above criticism.
I certainly did not intend to suggest that everyone Katz discussed was death-obsessed. A segment of them were, however. My apologies if I did not communicate clearly.
Certainly there is no problem with being part of more than one culture, as you say. I don't mean to challenge that. But we still have an obligation to critically evaluate the cultures of which we are a part -- along with any other culture.
Good Post, BTW.
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
If you hear or read something, never initially assume it is correct. Afterwards you can analyze and check the credibility. Then you can see if it is more likely to be correct or incorrect/partialy correct.
:) I have no reason to provide incorrect facts...
Unfortunately most people blindly believe what they hear. It seems Adolf Hitler was correct in that the masses are stupid (Mein Kampf). It looks like we, the nerds and geeks, are the only ones who can prove otherwise!
I feel that I am lucky when I read what my American soulmates are going through. In my country it is illegal for the school to act as many seem to have in USA the last few days. There are also more percent geeks and nerds among the youths here, than in USA, so we aren't really outsiders, and we are also respected.
You could assume what I wrote was incorrect, so I have only my word to argue otherwise
"The assembler gave birth to the compiler. Now there are ten thousand languages." - Tao of Programming
The remark in this article about having computer gaming teams in schools was extremly well founded. I currently lead the Quake club in our school, which meets three times a week after classes to systematically destroy each other in our digital world.
:) Many students from other cliques are joining up with us, and we're even starting to see some girls coming in!
The best part: We are given complete autonomy; there is nobody in our way unless we are trying to bring in new members. And believe me, we are growing rapidly, and are about to reach the capacity of what a P133 can serve
This group is composed of some VERY balanced individuals, who are both excellent and poor achievers in class. The level of energy in our computer room once the lights dim, the door is shut and the game loaded up is intense; one teacher described our yelling and cursing (yup, we get to do that too!) was like listening to mission control from another world.
If such a system could be implemented at every school where there is a capable computer network existed, then what kind of connections would geeks be able to make with each other???
Oh, spoken like a true jock/prep. Thank you very much. Life is a zero-sum game, and there are winners and losers, huh? Get the hell off the forum. You can't 'beat' other people, this isn't a contest, it's life. This attitude is what geeks are complaining about! Because, for these kids to be popular and 'win' at school, there have to be people who are unpopular and 'lose'.
And perhaps you don't understand...it's not about rebellion, it's about doing what we like. Just because we happen to like computers more then sports doesn't mean we deserve to be picked on continually. Sure, lots of geeks are anti-social, but isn't it a bit odd that all these people that 'choose' to be anti-social fit in a few catagories? Perhaps they didn't choose to be anti-social, perhaps they just choose the catagories, and everyone picking on them made them anti-social. But, of course, it's easier just to assume they did it to themselves, After all, the cool kids wouldn't do stuff like that, only weirdos marginalize people.
And, BTW, it's amazing how you can compliment people who 'waste' hours training their bodies to do sports, but people who 'waste' hours training for a computer game are to be pitied...let me let you in a secret...baseball is no more real then DOOM! They both were totally invented out of thin air! Neither has a bearing on real life! One will, in general, make you faster, and more coordinated, and the other will give you good reflexes. True, if you are really, really lucky, you can make a living at baseball, but most people who think they can do that are just fooling themselves, and, ironically, living more in a fantasy world then geeks who know beating DOOM at 'ultra-violent' level doesn't really count for anything more then a measure of their skill.
I would like to note here that I'm not 'dissing' sports...sports are cool. If I could do school again I would play more of them. But they are no more real then computer games, or even chess. And they do not give people the right to make fun of people who don't play them.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
Me and a few friends started a computer club, though...it didn't last long.
And, I really don't think goths want the reaction, 'I'm going to beat you up.' They want some reaction, but I, even though I'm not a goth, will bet it's not to be beat up.
(This is about the obvious ones who dress as goths. There are a lot of people out there who wear dark clothes, listen to goth music, and subscribe to gothish magazines (assuming they exist), who really are goths, they just don't look it. Subcultures always have people in them who want to flaunt it, some in hiding, and most who don't really care.)
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
At my high school, people passed out blue and white ribbons to remember the people who were killed at Columbine High School and show sympathy for their families.
In response to the national backlash against nonconformists, the web/computer club (a haven for geeks, nerds, and other non-mainstream people) at my school decided to raise awareness about the plight of nerds, geeks, goths, gamers, and others at schools around the country. We distributed copies of "Why Kids Kill," and told our more mainstream schoolmates about this other facet of the Columbine High School tragedy.
We have also started to pass out black ribbons to be warn in addition to the blue and white ones. This has helped spread awareness about the issue in a very non-threatening way, and literally dozens of people have asked, "What's the black ribbon for?" Then we explain about the witch hunt and hand them a copy of the article. Nearly all have reacted with surprise and sympathy. Quite a number of them -- students and teachers -- have asked for black ribbons.
Perhaps the black ribbon could be a good way of spreading awareness in other places, especially high schools in other parts of the country.
If anyone else tries this, I'd love to hear how it goes.
- Athena
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
Write your principal indeed - if they were reasonable people and open to debate there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.
Form geek clubs my arse - all that'll accomplish is to make you easier to find.
The only solution is to grow up, move away, and never ever look back.
K.
-
--
To the extent that I wear skirts and cheap nylon slips, I've gone native.
-- Proud descendant of semi-nomadic cattle-herders.
Once again, I am forced to wonder whether Jon Katz proofreads his work. I know it's normal for a few
typos to appear in any written piece. But his pieces seem to consistently contain an abnormal amount!
"Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer but wish we didn't." --Erica Jong
Huh? While the relocation camps were one of the dumbest things that the U.S. government has ever done, I can't see how you could possibly equate them with Nazi concentration camps. Are you trying to say that the U.S. was onvolved in the use of the internees as slave labor or that they were incinerated in ovens? If that's the case then I'd have to congratulate the government for pulling off one of the greatest PR snow jobs in history.
If this is what's currently being taught in high schools nowadays then I'm certaintly glad to be out of the educational profession as the history rewriters appear to have won.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
While grade school was rather unpleasant for me, I have to admit that my highschool was pretty exceptional considering some of the horror stories I've seen on here lately - our Physics club was praised for successes in competition just as much as the football team. Of course, the physics club had more fun, and no injuries. Well, none except for that incident with the silly putty. Remember kids, a pound of silly putty does not mix well with a sledgehammer. Plus, in the Physics club, we got to play with explosives. (from a safe distance of course)
"monsters next door"?
Uugh.
>America is run by the freaks, not the middlemen.
bzzt, America is run by capitalist pigs.
>Is Bill Clinton normal? Was Newt?
As normal as the football quarterback whose lawyer father makes sure his son never gets in to trouble
>How about out pop-music stars?
So you think pop-music stars run America? Ok, I sort of see that. Look at what they do for the people living in America... nothing.
>Bill Gates?
Bill Gates is a fucking looser, imo. Stealing and hoarding will make you rich. If he is your hero, go be a thief.
>We need the middle men to get all that work done.
It is the worker that supports this country the most. They do the labor and the capitalist bosses benifit.
>Everything left for us is part of the spicy sauce of life.
while we live off of others hard work. No thanks.
Fight against 'a good days pay for a good days work' and for a world without bosses.
You'll see me out on the streets of DC on May 1st.
--
Four years in jail
No Trial, No Bail
*** FREE KEVIN ***
New worlds are not born in the vacuum of abstract
ideas, but in the fight for daily bread --Rudolf Rocke
It's good to see all of the discussion, now lets take the next step.
/.
In my old high school there was a group of students, called SHOP, which provided alternative activites for high school kids to do instead of getting drunk with the jocks. They had open discussions once a month where people could talk about what ever was bothering them, and they had activites that benifited the society around them as well as just fun things to do. It was the only time I felt comfortable in high school, and while SHOP had its problems, it was a good experiance.
Just a suggestion.
Others I have heard on
-On-line resources (I was planing to start something this summer as a reaction to a different tragedy a while ago)
-A general strike (A Good Thing)
-Letter writting
-Walk-out
-confronting the oppresors as a group(An injury to one is an injury to all)
-Joining the PTA (not really effective, plus it only fights for its own interests, not yours)
While these ideas vary in usefullness, some are not only for High School, but usefull throughout life and the fight for true liberty. Remember, only you can affect change, don't expect anyone else to do it for you.
oh, and you forgot www.infoshop.org
--
Four years in jail
No Trial, No Bail
*** FREE KEVIN ***
New worlds are not born in the vacuum of abstract
ideas, but in the fight for daily bread --Rudolf Rocke
There is an awful lot of you. Sometimes more then the oppressors. Be strong. Organize. Do something to stop what is happening to you, because no one else will.
Suggestions:
pettition, write to local media, start local newspapers, approach the principle (board of ed., PTA), start/join a club whose goal is to address these grivances, walkout, if there is enough of you confront the people abusing you, just something to help your situation.
--
Four years in jail
No Trial, No Bail
*** FREE KEVIN ***
New worlds are not born in the vacuum of abstract
ideas, but in the fight for daily bread --Rudolf Rocke
... is not out to *kill* geeks.
...
You said
"Yesterday I watched a show where people thought about "what if Eric and Dylan were alive still". Everyone was saying they wanted them dead. Isn't it somewhat ironic that the same people who don't want to see football players, etc. get killed are the same ones who want goths/nerds to die?"
Your argument (if it can be called that) is that if the killers were popular (jocks, for example) people wouldn't want them dead, as opposed to the geeks. I hope you were kidding, if not you've got a serious persecution complex.
The reality here is that they would want them dead because they murdered a bunch of _INNOCENT_ people, nobody cares they were geeks. Do you think the parents of the victims cared if the killers were geeks/jocks/cheerleaders/whatever ???? Get real! There's a larger world beyond your small vision, get some perspective (and a grip) man !!!
BTW1 - Many of the kids killed and injured were geeks. Not that it matters, the important thing is that they were human beings
BTW2 - I'm against the death penalty, so if they survived I wouldn't want them dead. Of course life in prision would be the minimum punishment these 2 earened. Unfortunately, the cowards killed themselves.
- sigs are for wimps.
Katz writes;
Although many expressed sympathy for the killers as well as the victims in Littleton (unlike, say Time Magazine, which accompanied cover photos of the killers with the headline "The Monsters Next Door"), no one threatened violence, supported it, or approved of it.
And what are you saying, that they were not monsters ??? Did you read what they did and how the did it ? How they killed 13 human beings while laughing ? Did you hear the stories about them killing a girl while she was crying and begging for her life ? How about them thinking it was "cool" how the brains of one student looked after shooting him on the head ? Or the laughs they got by killing a girl and saying "peekaboo".
I'm all for forgiveness and understanding, but these to killers earned the title "monsters". Please, your intentions seem kind of honest, but your language and tone is starting to betray you.
BTW - You fail to mention that the Time edition is very fair, and has very well balanced (and positive) articles about Goths, violent videogames and movies.
- sigs are for wimps.
I agree. Something had to happen for them to snap, but also there was more. I'm sure there are millions (billions) of people who have endured even worse treatment, and they've not done what these 2 did.
I was just trying to bring out the "monster part", like you said "Keep humans from breaking, and you reduce the monster population in the world." To do that you must be able to recognize monstruosity whenever it appears, not hide it.
We can all do something about high school abuse, and we can help reduce it. Maybe, that's a big step. However, there's little we can do about people who are just plain *evil*.
Evil is something very hard to quantify, and I guess the only people who can describe it would be the victims of these atrocities. Like jews who survived the Holocaust or one girl who survived this event while one of the killers pointed a gun to her head while laughing and having the time of his life.
- sigs are for wimps.
... are like the one I described. I went to school in Tampa, FL in the 90s . The kid who said "it's a police state" is currently going to school, I'm sure it hasn't changed that much.
Some clarifications:
3. It has been proven that the level of education in US teens is very low. Coming from another country, it was upsetting that most of my classmates didn't know where Panama (canal-zone-US-territory-occupied) is on the world map. The parents might want kids to have good grades, but the high school culture really doesn't push for this like other countries. ie - Japan, as an extreme, has so much pressure that kids kill themselves for not so perfect grades (not a good situation either).
4. You have to ask yourself, do we really need to bring highschools down to the lowest level, or encourage people to work hard at achieving the highest levels. When you challenge kids they usually strive. If you give them easy choices they will take those, it's their nature. I think we should expect more of our next generations. We're falling behind !!!
5. Most public schools have free books. Not that I think it's bad BTW, but definetly more accomodating than other countries.
My point is that kids are complaining that there are too many rules, when in reality and from a world view, there are probably not enough rules. This should be a hint as to why other countries are surpassing the US in elementary/highschool education.
BTW - When and were did you go to school ? Just curious.
- sigs are for wimps.
Who the hell do you think was behind the military junta in Panama? Noriega and George Bush went way back, up until we illegal invaded Panama in 89 to clean up our little mess. The US prefers to establish police states in countries that are far from our borders -- such behavior doesn't go on here, but we sure benefit from it.
:) Of course most North Americans don't know about this (which speaks to my point on the educational system). This also happened in most of Central America, but that's another story for another time.
Sure, I agree with you, since I lived through it
The police state here is a little more subtle. The US has the highest incarceration rate of any industrial country. There are millions in prison and millions more who are legally bound to the criminal justice system. The entire system is racist and classist.
I won't go to into that since it's a little off topic (albeit a very interesting discussion). All I'll say is that the school system is far far far from a police state. Not letting kids wear whatever they want, and do whatever they want to do in highschool is not equivalent to a real police state. My point , and the examples I posted, are that the system is lax and probably is one of the least strict systems in the world. Also North American high school kids are way behind the curve in areas of math, science, geography, history , etc. Wheter this is related to the non-strict educational system, is an exercise best left for the reader.
- sigs are for wimps.
As for feeling like a using a gun on others or yourself, I can understand that. I know how it feels to be helpless and you just want to explode. However, you didn't do it, and most probably you wouldn't have done what these 2 did.
In light of that, my point still stands, whatever these kids went through, doesn't matter in the context of the actions they took. They killed anybody, and they enjoyed it. If that's not evil I don't know what is. Their actions made them monsters. Their actions were delibarate and planned (for a year). Also, I'm sure people don't have a problem calling Hitler a monster. Hey, you don't know, maybe he was also a geek and was abused as a child. Maybe the jocks were jews !
If a woman is being abused by her husband (verbally and/or physically) and in a moment of rage and without planning kills the husband , it doesn't make it right, but it's a more understandable situation. However, if you plan for more than a year to kill, and instead of killing the perpetrators of your pain, you just kill, well that's very different, it's evil. Those 2 cowards killed innocent people, girls that more than likely never picked on them. Geeks that were studying in the library, and yes some jocks who it seems they didn't recognize (except for maybe one).
As bad as your expirience was in high school, it does not compare at all to what the parents of the victims are and will go through. Neither does it compare to the wounded who would probably not be able to walk, and may have mental problems as a result of this.
In a way , you're lucky, they aren't.
ps - english is my second language too. cool, no ?
- sigs are for wimps.
I'm originally from Panama (Central America, kids), and came during the Noriega fiasco to finish high school (10-12th), so I was in high school not too long ago and I know a little about "police states" (or military juntas)
Here are some observations;
No school uniforms.
This bothered me at first, I didn't have enough clothes, I loved using uniforms since nobody had to "compete" clothes wise. So, I had to spend more money in what I consired a waste, clothes. Also , I had many friends working just to buy clothes, instead of studying. Ridiculous.
You can take whatever classes you want.
Just like college, this could be good or bad. I tought it was mainly bad since many kids tried to take the easier classes. In Panama, you took whatever everybody else took until 10th grade. By then you had to decide between Science, Arts, Letters(Law), and others. If you choose science you had to take the same courses as everybody else in science. If you didn't like some of the classes, too bad !
It's cool to fail and get bad grades. ,failing and going to summer school !!! In Panama, getting bad grades (like a D or F) was a cause for shame. Plus, if you wore a school uniform during summer, it was obvious you failed. There was great peer pressure to do ok in school.
Kids bragged about doing bad
High school is too easy !
I had average grades in my school, when I came to the US I had a 4.0 average, and I didn't have to study !!!
And those are just some of the negative comparisons from the dozens I can make. Other more positive differences are here you have free food, free books, lots of clubs (french, art, computer, chess, acting, etc), and lots of "extra" goodies. Surely you can see that the system here is less represive than my native land , which I'm sure Panamanian schools are very similar to the rest of Latin America and probably Europe.
So, I like universities (went to USF) in the US, but high school is a joke. However, it's far from a "police state". Kids in this country are way too spoiled, and many are lazy. When I hear about kids being repressed because they can't wear a hat, trenchcoat, or dress like a vampire to school I feel little sympathy. School is a place to learn, and like a workplace it has rules you must follow.
- sigs are for wimps.
Mr Katz said that his earlier articles have been spread, yes? Let's do it some more! Everybody who's willing, I say take this article of Katz's and email it to EVERYONE YOU KNOW.
Go on Websites of newspapers and email the article to editors. Email this article to your Senators and House Reps.
Send this article to The President, The Vice President.
Send it to CNN, MSNBC, The New York Times.
The point is, spread it around! We've seen the slashdot effect with servers, yes? Well, the only person to experiance a Slashdot effect with email has been Mr. Katz, which hardly seems fair. Get the word out! If enough people have the truth shoved in their faces, they have to listen to reason.
And let's all do it before it's too late for our little version of reality. I like being a geek. At this point in my life, I don't think I could start over.
People should NOT have to change what they're wearing, saying, or how they behave to avoid unjust discrimination from people like you. People might very well be afraid right now, but they're going to have to grow up and learn to deal with it. By fearing someone because of their coat, of all things, you're no better than the other kneejerk normals.
How people are being treated right now is not just, and that's that. They're not being treated badly because of any fault of their own. And it is not the responsibility of the persecuted to change, it's the responsibility of society at large to be more tolerant, and less reactionary.
-lx
WSB has always struck me as being too cynical and well adjusted to be truly appreciated by anyone dwelling in existential misery and laughable pseudo-intellectualism.
To the contrary, I've always seen him as a magnet for that type. Not the really dumb ones, but the smarter ones who are just clueless and take themselves too seriously. I'm guessing that they giggle over the naughty bits and miss most of what's worthwhile about it, but who knows. Hey, Burroughs writes well and he's a master of atmosphere (he's not Jack Vance, but most sensibilities are too coarse-grained for Vance anyway). Maybe some boneheads are fitfully capable of appreciating something good for the right reasons. And boneheads can certainly enjoy watching Burroughs turn his cold, withering eye on the human race without realizing that he's turning it on them, too. Heh. Actually I try not to think about that part myself.
"Once a solution is found, a compatibility problem becomes indescribably boring because it has only... practical importance"
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --
What's drawing everybody on Slashdot to this is just what's drawing the rest of us to it: It's a crack in the walls of reality. A month ago, you could've gone to 100 Americans and described these events in Colorado, and then described Martians landing in New Jersey. More people would have bought the story about Martians. This is not much less of an blow to our worldview than anti-gravity or extraterrestrials. Somebody instantiated a bad dream, and it's real. Those kids are really dead. Real blood, right there on TV, but without P. J. Soles and a Ramones soundtrack. This is what some of us read Hunter Thompson for: Back in the day, at least, Thompson was a moving, self-propelled crack in the walls of reality. He behaved (or claimed to behave
Why is there such an enduring fascination with Orson Welles' War of the Worlds broadcast? Because the walls of reality broke down for an hour or two, and things came in. This is also the root of a lot of fascination with nuclear war: Suddenly, everything you know is meaningless and you're on a different planet where "nothing is true, everything is permitted".
What grabs us isn't so much the horror of the particular acts that were committed. It's the fact that we have suddenly stumbled into a different reality, a parallel universe, where we don't know the rules any more. If what we "knew" about nerdy high-school students isn't true, what else isn't true? The ground is shaking beneath our feet and there's nowhere to stand. The people freaking out and peddling quick fixes are trying to invent something to stand on.
After a while, we'll get used to it and calm down. People adapt when they have to, but they don't enjoy it.
It's better because we all get to genuflect interactively?
The medium is the message, hahahahahaaaaa! Yes, yes, yes, the key here is not the genuflection as such but the interactivity. Can you say "slashdot sexbot" five times fast without sounding like "the village drunk in an irish novel"? Me neither! I think that supports my point, but I'm not sure why.
"Once a solution is found, a compatibility problem becomes indescribably boring because it has only... practical importance"
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --
If you don't think nerds are more important than the herded masses, I have to wonder why you're using our forum.
I don't know about you, but I've never thought that the fact that I'm a part of a group means I have to despise everybody else. Nerds are not "more important", just more interesting -- to me, not necessarily to anybody else. It's a free country.
As for your disdain for the "herded masses", Nietzsche is a bore. Claiming to worship the ubermensch does not make you an ubermensch, any more than worshipping Zeus ever helped anybody turn into a shower of gold and get laid.
"Once a solution is found, a compatibility problem becomes indescribably boring because it has only... practical importance"
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --
I think the biggest problem here is that everyone is looking for a Cause.
You're right! That's what's causing it!
. . . more than likely the Cause they find will not be them.
You're right about that as well -- the Cause you found isn't you!
:)
Okay, I'm being a prick. I couldn't resist.
An armed society is a polite society.
Just because a good writer said it, doesn't make it true. Heinlein also, at various times, alternately condenmed democracy ("zero times a million still equals zero") and celebrated it. Likewise a lot of other things. For example, read Coventry, where the dominant culture is un-armed, and very, very polite (until Methuselah's Children, where they freak out under unbearable stresses). That culture, the culture of the Covenant, struck him as very realistic for a long time. He never repudiated it either, the way he did the "self-appointed supermen" who he was so fond of in the first Kettle Belly Baldwin story (dammit, I can't remember the name, but Friday was set in the future of that world, and in Friday he expressed extreme distaste for that whole breed-for-IQ gang).
The Covenant culture is built on an ethic based on mutual respect, not on fear. You could argue that any culture based on fear is doomed, and that any ethic based on fear of retribution is perverse. See Heinlein's address to the graduates at Annapolis for a clear exposition of his later thoughts about ethics, unobscured by narrative.
Then there's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, where "there was killing enough to chill your teeth in the old days". Does that sound like a "polite society"? He felt at the time of writing (as well as at other times) that such a culture would eventually settle down into a polite society, but he was basing that assumption on some questionable premises. First, he assumed that nearly all citizens would stand up for their own personal rights, and that most would choose not to interfere with the rights of others. He left toadies and followers out of the picture entirely, apparently assuming that such people don't tend to be criminals and therefore wouldn't have been transported. All of these assumptions were necessary because in normal groups of humans, a power vacuum has, historically, always been filled by a gang of thugs. His view of the criminal mentality (if there even is such a thing) is woefully romanticized. Heinlein's talent was such that he could tell a story with holes in it that you could chuck a dog through, and still make it believable. He carries the reader right over the gaps, and you never notice. He was a very good goddamn writer, but that doesn't mean he was worth spit as a sociologist or anything else.
(Disclaimer: All quotes are from memory, I'm at work.)
"Once a solution is found, a compatibility problem becomes indescribably boring because it has only... practical importance"
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --
De Touqueville, read it.
Ooh! So . . . brisk! So manly! I think it might "de Tocqueville", by the way. Not that I'd bet anything on that. I haven't read him.
Debate the real facts of democracy, not some fiction writers rehashed ideas of another.
I wasn't debating anything about democracy. I was providing examples of Robert A. Heinlein holding opposing beliefs at different points in his life, as expressed in his writing. If I wanted to debate democracy, I wouldn't quote anybody. I've enough indefensible ideas of my own on the subject not to need help, thank you very much.
Personally, I don't think your post debated the doctrine of transsubstantiation (which may or may not have that many s's in it in real life
"Once a solution is found, a compatibility problem becomes indescribably boring because it has only... practical importance"
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --
if they were not "goths" the media would put them in a different light possibly.
That, I don't buy. The killed thirteen people. I can't see the media looking for a way to soft-pedal that. It'd be a hell of a stretch.
Do you think there would be a witchhunt for jocks? I don't see it happening.
On that one, you're absolutely right. There will never be a witch-hunt for jocks. They're "normal", so however badly they act, only the individual responsible will be judged for it. By the mainstream, anyway. People judge members of their own group as individuals, but they judge members of other groups as representatives of those groups. The entire group is held responsible for the actions of its members. If a white kid robs somebody, white people will say "what a little shit", but if a black kid does the same thing, people say "blacks are a bunch of shits". It's a crock but IMHO it's human nature.
If somebody does something bad enough, s/he will be retroactively kicked out of the group entirely. Most likely, if a jock freaked out and killed thirteen people, the media would find ways to "demonstrate" that he wasn't a member of the dominant group after all. They'd tell us endlessly how different he really was from all the other guys on the team, and the other guys on the team would be delighted to help out, because who the hell wants to admit kinship with a monster? Journalists would waste just as much ink calling him an "atypical" jock as they're now wasting calling those Harris and Kleber typical "goths" or whatever.
I just said my opinion and you took it the wrong way.
What, just because it's your opinion he's not allowed to consider it objectionable, offensive, or idiotic? He didn't "take it the wrong way", he took it the right way, as an opinion that was out there to be disagreed with. IMHO he freaked out a lot further than he had to, but some people are like that. So flame him back. "Geez. Calm down you fucking idiot" was a reasonable and sane response on your part.
"Once a solution is found, a compatibility problem becomes indescribably boring because it has only... practical importance"
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --
Are you saying that in your worldview death does not occur? Evil is non-existent?
No, of course not. The point is that there are specific implementations of death and evil that we're not accustomed to. There are places where it's very hard for us to accept them happening beyond a certain scale, or in certain ways. We have expectations of the world, and they're very deeply ingrained. If I drop something, I expect it to fall down, not up. If I walk into a "nice" suburban school, I don't expect to walk into a hell of semi-automatic small-arms fire and exploding bombs (more on snipers in a moment). It's easy to say that one is a matter of natural law, and the other is a matter of learned behavior which is subject to change without notice, but on a gut level the human mind does not recognize that distinction.
Over the last few decades we've gotten used to hearing about snipers on the news, of course, and the whole postal-worker thing, but this one seems different to me. Looking at the reaction, I don't think I'm the only one. IMHO the perceived difference has to do with the scale of the thing, the bombs, the amount of planning, the determination of the killers, etc. I don't claim to have a definitive answer.
The unexplainable doesn't happen?
Ahhh! Now you're nailing it. Name ten unexplainable things that happened in the past year. Not just things that seem explainable, but lack an adequate explanation -- things where everybody is completely baffled. That doesn't happen very often.
Seems like a problem with your worldview (and you are not alone).
For one thing, I think it's an issue with the human worldview, which is to say that the fact that I am "not alone" is half of the point.
However, I'm not sure I'd call it a "problem" as such. It's not practical to go through life expecting the unexpected every minute. We make assumptions about the world based on past experience, and every single one of those assumptions is a rough approximation based mostly on typical cases (while people subjected to intense trauma often come to base their assumptions on wildly atypical cases), but usually they're good enough. They let us deal with things without having to stop and treat every event as a unique special case. Sometimes that kills us, but it's so helpful in so many cases that we keep on doing it anyway. We're striking a balance between precision on the one hand, and speed and convenience on the other.
I think all the "how could it happen?" questions are a similar reaction to yours.
I think I was taking that as a given. I was just trying to puzzle out the mechanism of it.
"Once a solution is found, a compatibility problem becomes indescribably boring because it has only... practical importance"
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --
I've heard many a shipmate read the newspaper, then throw it down in disgust and say "These are the people we're defending with our lives?" It's that sort of superior attitude that leads to police states, military coups, and restrictions on freedom.
I hear ya. I've never served, but I've been told that an politically neutral military is one of the few things standint between the U.S. and the political state Argentina is in. My Dad saw a lot of Latin America when he was in the Navy in the 1960's, and he came back with some very firm ideas about what roles the military should and should not play in society.
You may believe that you're smarter than everyone you see around you, but that doesn't make you a better person, nor does it make them any less so.
Uh, "me, too!" Right on.
"Once a solution is found, a compatibility problem becomes indescribably boring because it has only... practical importance"
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --
It would be worthwhile to distinguish between two classes of complaints here:
We're angry, and rightly so, because the media, the police, and school administrators are galloping off in all directions without thinking first. Must we do the same?
Very few generalizations about people are reliably valid, even when the people in question are school administrators and police.
Oh, yeah, one more thing: How do we all feel about the recent flap in New Jersey, about the state police "profiling" drivers? They've been stopping a higher percentage of black drivers than white. Of the drivers who are stopped, it seems that they search the cars of a dramatically higher percentage of black drivers. So how do Slashdotters feel about that, and the fact that it's happening in close proximity to Camden, Trenton, North Philadelphia, Newark, etc.?
"Once a solution is found, a compatibility problem becomes indescribably boring because it has only... practical importance"
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --
Don't know if anyone else has brought this up, but all these stories about high school and geeks has brought to mind a text file that's been circulating the underground (and not so underground) realms of the net for a handful of years now. From what I know, it was written in jail, by The Mentor (an old old school cracker) shortly after his arrest. While it doesn't exactly fit what's going on, it comes damn close...makes some VERY good points, and is truly a beautifully written piece of literature...
Mentor's Last Words (also known as "A Hacker's Manifesto")
Another one got caught today, it's all over the papers. "Teenager
Arrested in Computer Crime Scandal", "Hacker Arrested after Bank
Tampering"... Damn kids. They're all alike. But did you, in your three-
piece psychology and 1950's technobrain, ever take a look behind the
eyes of the hacker? Did you ever wonder what made him tick, what forces
shaped him, what may have molded him? I am a hacker, enter my world...
Mine is a world that begins with school... I'm smarter than most of the
other kids, this crap they teach us bores me... Damn underachiever.
They're all alike. I'm in junior high or high school. I've listened to
teachers explain for the fifteenth time how to reduce a fraction.
I understand it. "No, Ms. Smith, I didn't show my work. I did it in
my head..." Damn kid. Probably copied it. They're all alike.
I made a discovery today. I found a computer. Wait a second, this is
cool. It does what I want it to. If it makes a mistake, it's because I
screwed it up. Not because it doesn't like me... Or feels threatened by
me.. Or thinks I'm a smart ass.. Or doesn't like teaching and shouldn't be
here... Damn kid. All he does is play games. They're all alike. And then
it happened... a door opened to a world... rushing through the phone line
like heroin through an addict's veins, an electronic pulse is sent out,
a refuge from the day-to-day incompetencies is sought... a board is found.
"This is it... this is where I belong..." I know everyone here... even
if I've never met them, never talked to them, may never hear from them
again... I know you all... Damn kid. Tying up the phone line again.
They're all alike... You bet your ass we're all alike... we've been
spoon-fed baby food at school when we hungered for steak... the bits of
meat that you did let slip through were pre-chewed and tasteless.
We've been dominated by sadists, or ignored by the apathetic. The few
that had something to teach found us willing pupils, but those few are
like drops of water in the desert.
This is our world now... the world of the electron and the switch, the
beauty of the baud. We make use of a service already existing without
paying for what could be dirt-cheap if it wasn't run by profiteering
gluttons, and you call us criminals. We explore... and you call us
criminals. We seek after knowledge... and you call us criminals. We
exist without skin color, without nationality, without religious bias...
and you call us criminals. You build atomic bombs, you wage wars, you
murder, cheat, and lie to us and try to make us believe it's for our
own good, yet we're the criminals.
Yes, I am a criminal. My crime is that of curiosity. My crime is
that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like.
My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never
forgive me for. I am a hacker, and this is my manifesto. You may stop
this individual, but you can't stop us all... after all, we're all alike.
+++The Mentor+++
-dk
Dream with the feathers of angels stuffed beneath your head.
Dumb. Probably most (all?) kids have violent revenge fantasies at some point. I sure did. Hell, I still have a "Needs Killin'" list, big whoop. It's not like I've ever actually intended on doing anything.
Aside from occasional exceptions who are -- at least in retrospect -- mentally ill, I think most kids have a really firm grasp on the difference between fantasy and reality. Some of these adults, on the other hand, seem to have lost their grasp on the difference.
Bearpaw
"Tonight on NewsHype, we'll talk to the experts about whether youth violence is most easily blamed on guns, movies, video games, or the internet. But first, we'll show you the latest footage of the US military bombing the shit out of the enemy. Right after this message ..."
So, if I read you right, you're saying that the parents of nerds are to blame cause they're not doing a good enough job preparing their geeky kids for the pressures of public school.
What about the parents of bullies? They're doing a good job by allowing their kids to be sadistic tormenters? It's misguided opinions like yours that are the root problem here. Letting the jocks and "popular" people continue their destructive behavior, while "fixing" the geeks is just going to lead to more alienation, more hatred, and more dead jocks and innocent kids.
Learn from this, listen to the oppressed, or suffer the consequences.
FYI, I write these words 17 years post high school.
Everything you've said probly typifies the life , current or prior, of an average slashdotter. Maybe I'm a little heavy on darwinism, in whatever context, but there are precious few people with golden lives.
Yes, many people are afraid of difference. Yes, it is terrible to spend a youth oppressed. But, there's more to it than just 'I'm being abused!'
Life is not rosey. The market is not rosey. When these kids move on to jobs, they will be competition with their peers and betters. No one will make fun of them for what they wear, but pressure of some sort will always exist.
I guess, to nutshell it, yes, it sucks to different and laughed at. It also sucks to be shot in the chest.
Take life's lessons, and grow from them. Don't abuse others, but don't expect to be treated well or fairly. I'm a complete introvert; I could never just jump in someone's face when I was younger. But, we grow and we learn. Those kids being oppressed and picked on will either get stronger, or they'll snap and shoot everyone. Some people will react to it the right way, and some the wrong. Glorifying or glamorizing _either_ viewpoint is equally wrong.
i browse at -1 because they're funnier than you are.
There's a war going on...now. It's a war on anyone who thinks out of the box of newspeak. True outsiders don't care about being outsiders!!! I loved the fact that i was an outsider and still am. When in school i could have been kool...all i had to do is...Conform! Now in my factorywork, i'm still the outsider and made fun of..."Oh there's the internet freak" "You use email as your main communication tool?" On talking open source and gift economy to a fellow worker, being overheard by another fellow worker, who wasn't even part of the conversation, as i left to begin my workday, the guy who was listening in called out,"see ya trenchcoat". 2,000 students packed into a sardine can called a school, what was the class size? No excuses really, just facts that might point somewhere besides a persons dress or political views. The Christian Church seems to function in our society with it's bloody hands. The greatest secret of world war two is that Hitler was a Christian. Then there's the Jews finding the promise land occupied, what they do? Sorta like we whites did to the American Indian, ethnic cleanings anyone? Let the first nation, religious or political viewpoint without blood on their hands, please step forward and throw stones. This doesn't justify anything, but when you wonder where the violence comes from, stop looking at trenchcoats and start looking at the societies we've been building, like forever. Need for change? Yeah. More rules, more control by the very same people who have brought us to where we are now. Do you trust Bill Clinton? Then let the games continue. ~g.
an enigma wrapped around a paradox driven by a paradigm shift
They stop listening to crap and trying to be "cool" and wear comfortable clothes and realized that Haydn is a pretty cool guy.
"... I declare our city to be a free and independent state to be named Tri-Insula!" --Fernando Wood, Mayor of NYC 1861
I actually fucked up and meant to say that they START wearing comfortable clothes and find out Haydn (not Beethoven, they'd have to graduate first to get him) is a pretty cool guy. Not to mention relaxing for chrissake...
"... I declare our city to be a free and independent state to be named Tri-Insula!" --Fernando Wood, Mayor of NYC 1861
I think Jon has put his finger on a basic issue that is at the heart of most of the hatred in the world today. This isn't about Littelton at all; it's about the entire world.
As a result of bad threats, today at my school one of the schools proctors saw a student shake up an object and thew it in the middle of our 700 Quad.
After lunch every student with a class in the 700 quad were supposed to report to the East Gym, The Claremont Police Department, the L.A. County Sherrifs, the Pomona Bomb Squad, the L.A. County Fire Department we all called. At about 2:00 the Asst. Principle went on the P.A. and said that the suspecious object had been destroyed and the 700 Quad was clear..
My friend, equiped with his police scanner, heard that it was a power-ade bottle with some duct tape on the neck. The extremly explosive object in the bottle suprisingly happened to be Fruit Punch Power-Ade. As for the person who threw the bottle? My friend also heard on the scanner that a suspect was "detained", as for who that person was, and if he acually had committed the evil act of littering? we will never know.
Sorry, Jon, but I couldn't take seriously your claims of Goths being so individualistic. Just because one gets kicks out of annoying Mommy and Daddy, claims of uniqueness fall by the wayside when you strive to look exactly like all your friends. The reason why it's so easy to play "spot the Goth" is precisely because there is so little individualism within that group. I guarantee that you'll find greater stylistic variation within the front rows of a Brittany Spears concert than you will in the front rows of a Cure show.
Mocking the mainstream does not equal individualism, especially when done in the same style as millions of other Goths. The Onion had an absolutely hilarious and spot-on article about this, where people who don't go around proclaiming or advertizing how "different" they are are actually the non-mainstream minority now. Lot of truth to that.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
Yes but what about those teachers that encoureage, enable and create, peer abuse. I recall one class in 6th grade where this was _class_ for 10 minutes (with encouragement to be creative and complete). But of course I had equal time, to reply after. Not that I could come up with much.
Grey (Chris Lusena)
I am reminded by something I read in one of the posts in the original Hellmouth article. I think a key point here is that kids in high school are treated too much like children. They are held down to such a point that some of them start to feel oppressed. Dismissing this recent act of violence and condoning it, even slightly, by saying that they were children who didn't know any better is a cop-out. Those two definitely knew what they were doing. The problem is that they lacked a basic respect for human life, their own and others.
I'm sure years of humiliation had a lot to do with this. Does that make it right or acceptable? Of course not, but it does somewhat explain it.
Like a lot of other people, I was somewhat of a loner/outcast in junior high and high school. Another thing that made life hard for me was that ours was a military family, which meant we moved around a lot. Imagine not fitting in very well, and then imagine getting uprooted every four years or so and dumped into a new environment. Believe me, it doesn't make anything any easier.
I haven't seen it widely publicized, but Eric Harris was a military child, too.
A good way to start fixing this situation is to make school officials more accountable to the emotional health of their students. I tried to go to guidance counselors in junior high, too, and while they wanted to help, they weren't willing to hand out punishments to any of the popular people who assaulted me. I'm not sure what they were scared of. Maybe it was a backlash from other parents, disciplining their kids when all other signs showed them to be "okay" (good grades, lots of friends, played sports, whatever).
Somehow, the perception that teenagers being cruel is okay or just a fact of growing up needs to change. I expect immaturity, but by age 14, kids understand their actions. Most of the time they just don't care about the ramifications. They know the worst thing likely to happen is a slap on the wrist.
Oh please. so wtf are you saying?
>The other interesting element of the mistakes and >idiotic moves the US government
>makes is that the whole world is watching. No >other country on earth goes through the
>fine-tooth comb of criticism that the US goes >through.
Yeah? well that good does it do? the States has the bombs right? They ignore the UN at a whim, all they can do is critize. The US and its majority of ultra-nationalist people don't give a crap what the other abused countries think becuase they can't do anything about the fact the States is a bad influnce to them.
>The only way to not be criticised for wrongdoing >is to do nothing....oh wait that doesn't
>work either.
Nice implications here pal. Yeah, actually not doing it does work in a lot of situations, like not break the international laws about the UN. eh?
Your a real indoctrinated little bugger arn't you? A real flag saluter here.
"Computers will never truly be free until the last windows user is strangled with the entrails of the last mac user."
Bill Gates is a bully, and he's a geek. He's rich because he's a bully.
I'm guessing that alot of RL bullies are geeks, as the geeks are getting top jobs and more power and the ability to get revenge on the rest of the world for being mean to them in high school.
It's not an attitude I agree with, but it's one that I've seen. And from reading some of the posts in this thread, we have alot of future power-weilding geeks who want revenge.
But I specifically remember the torture of being at school every day, of sacrificing total control of your life for a mandatory 8-10 hours a day to a bunch of incompetent, uncaring, overworked teachers who are getting paid next to nothing. In other words, prison guards, with a PR facelift.
How many people feel this way about their teachers? I really don't. Sure, my teachers (I graduated 5 years ago from a public school) were overworked and underpaid, but they definately weren't incompetent or uncaring.
I can only think of a couple of teachers I had who I would qualify as "bad". All of my English teachers were terrific. They encouraged individual interpretation of literature. An answer wasn't wrong just because they disagreed. They would listen to your viewpoint as long as you could defend your answers. Bless Mrs. Thompson, she never say to a student, "You're wrong".
The same applied to all my other subjects (well, less to math, but they still encouraged critical thinking...there's just a smaller margin of personal interpretation to 2+2). I guess my high school was geek-friendly. We had an excellent computer science department. After all, how many high schools were connected to the Internet pre-web, and how many high school students get to work on a Cray?
Please tell me I'm not in the minority here. Most of my teachers didn't HAVE to teach. Their spouses were high-paid engineers and entrepreneurs. I know for a fact those people were there because they wanted to be. Anyone else?
A letter referencing Slashdot was quoted in today's St. Paul Pioneer Press. I suppose some non-geeks will come by now and look at what we're saying...
For an informed discussion of evolution and the fallacy of "improvement" associated with it, try Stephen Jay Gould's "Life's Grandeur". A bit heavy going in parts but well worth it overall.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
I wrote the following to my senators, I encourage all of you to go to www.senatevote.com, get your senator's e-mail address and do the same!!!
h tml
-------BEGIN LETTER----------------
Dear Senator,
The purpose of this message is to encourage you carefully consider any reaction to the events that occurred in Littleton Colorado. To help you understand what really happened in the minds of those two individuals I point you to the following article:
http://slashdot.org/features/99/04/27/0310247.s
I must underscore the fact that I in no way condone their actions. This event was horrible. I have a 7 month old son and all I can think about is what things will be like for him in the future. I am not necessarily afraid of this happening to him though, I feel that the necessary precautions will begin to form themselves through the work of concerned citizens (although nothing will ever be 100% perfect). Violent acts of crime are decreasing and I have a feeling that the general population is getting the idea that they are no longer autonomous and that their actions really DO have a profound effect on everyone else. This does not mean all of our problems will magically go away (as you are probably all too aware of). New problems will crop up and old ones will haunt us until we properly solve them. What I fear the most is this event being used as an impetus to slowly add more and more legislation that restricts aspects of our lives. I value my personal freedom. Although I disagree with many many things I see in the world, I would fight to the death to preserve the right to do those things. Yes, a line has to be drawn somewhere. Things that adversely affect other people, such as murder, theft and destruction of property cannot be allowed. However that line changes with every generation. What I am hoping is that you leave the freedom to move that line forward or backward to the people who live it every day, the citizens of this great country.
Thank you for your time,
------------ END LETTER ---------------------
*Condense fact from the vapor of nuance*
What happens when "Goths" and "Jocks" grow up? Do we not all more or less become more like each other?
My dad is a seamingly "normal" member of society, now. What is it about our younger years that forces us to differentiate, only to come together in the end? It would seem, except for the lunatic frindge that we all just "grow-out" of it--get fatter, and (some of us) loose our hair.
If these is any sense that can be made out of modern-day high school: it would seam that the more tolerant people become of race, the less they become tolerant of diversity. It is like that Dr. Seuss books with the creatures "with the stars on there belly's," they are all the same-- but they would buy from a machine to be different from each other. Ahh, the wisdom of Dr. Seuss. Where can I get those now-damned black coats? It's been awhile since I have been down Melrose.
-AP
America is run by the freaks, not the middlemen. Is Bill Clinton normal? Was Newt? Howabout out pop-music stars? Bill Gates?
We need the middle men to get all that work done. Everything left for us is part of the spicy sauce of life.
-AP"The rest of us," are middle men.
Sorry, I mistook you for being part of the elite-few wackos who were out there. What makes Bill Clinton or Bill Gates different, is that if they were used-car salesmen, the would take a "by-hook-or-by-crook" attitude about it and not stop until they owned all the dealerships.
-AP
I refuse to accept that!
The modern use of "sell-out" has been used and used to signify, "somebody that was different (like me because I am different)," but now, "is different from me, so they're a sell-out." Who is the one calling the kettle black? Hmm?
My dad is not a "sell-out" he is simply more wise. He has seen a lot of the world. He knows a little of everything: from farming (hemp) to marketing. It is thanks to a broad life time experience.
Don't spend too long thinking one-way our your liable to get stuck there. Get it?
-AP
Perhaps the greatest tragedy is the general response to the events in the mainstream media. Predictably, coverage has focused only on the most sensational elements ("How to identify 'disturbed' teens", "Should we make weapons less accessible", etc.)
-- Noticeably lacking: in-depth analysis of the cultural climate that fosters such a profound sense of isolation for some individuals.
To prevent future incidents of school violence, we should be seeking ways help our kids from so alienated. This requires a much greater commitment from society than quick-fix gun legislation, or trying to defuse those who have already become 'hostile'.
Rather, we need to actively cultivate an environment of tolerance, shared knowledge and understanding.
It is always easy to villify those we perceive as different, but that is ultimately an exercise in denial. Improving the situation requires the courage to question underlying assumptions about what generates hostility and isolation in first place.
You should do some very in-depth study of what the ACLU has done in the past before you feed someone to the wolves.
-- Keith Moore
This sig is the express property of someone.
This is a complex and manifold problem, with multiple approach paths.
Parents and role models cannot be ignored in the development of children. However, they help to form the behavior of the bullies and the popular conformist crowd as well as the geek crowd, so any solution that targets parents will need to deal with the 'problem' children as well.
We can't say it's okay; it isn't because it is hurting our children. Do you have children? Are they tormented? Is it okay to torment them, as long as you are there in order to comfort and guide them afterwards? That sounds like the attitude you are espousing.
It's something I think we can and should be dealing with, and not just passing off. You talk about freedom of expression, but fail to see that many children and people seem to think that the school system itself is tyrannical and facsist, denying the children the rights and freedoms we as adults take for granted, online and outside in real life.
No one deserves persecution or abuse.
AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
It's really tough having to live through all the persecution, and I can really relate and I feel sympathy for every one else who had to suffer the same. It's easy to blame the schools, because they turned their backs, looked the other way, were understaffed, and were too jaded to care. It's not that they didn't care, actually, but that there were too many issues, too many problems, and no real solutions for them to do anything but give up.
I don't want to justify their behavior in creating this kind of situation, but I would like to explain some of the their reasoning in all this.
At least in my schools, there were overcrowded classrooms, aged and retiring teachers who just didn't have the energy or youth to deal with us, and and not enough funds to do anything they would have liked. In order to handle and deal with a class, conformity was stressed over performance, individuality, or creativeness. How could a teacher handle 20 wildly independent, unique, creative, inquisitive students? Whether intentional or not, they managed to convey to us the idea of conforming, of not rocking the boat. They were happy and excited whenever one of us showed initiative or intelligence, but they did not actively try to push us towards that goal.
Kids picked up really quick; they became the enforcers of the norm, and if you were different of race, of behavior, of attitude, of anything, they'd target you for this.
This was a school system which actively recruited for GATE students, but didn't have the resources to actually do anything with/for us once we were identified. They actually used us to gain more funding for stuff such as books, repairs, maintanence, etc. They didn't have the training or resources to manage a handful of gifted students, so we were left to our own devices, and then resented for it by all the other children.
This goes on all the way up to high school, in which I finally figured out how to look cool, how to act cool, how to be cool. I also happened to gain a foot in height and 40 pounds of bulk, so I guess people didn't figure I was such an easy target either.
Something does need to be done to change the system. We live in a society that does reward innovative unique and creative people, but the system we use to train and manage the kids tries to destroy and contain these things because they cause too much trouble.
I was talking to my dad about this, and he mentioned that even private schools have this fascist need to maintain conformity, except that they raise the bar and expectations much higher than in our public school. Are there any real solutions available?
AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
How did you come to the conclusion that American society is tolerant ? Much less more so than all others.
Teen angst or not most other cultures make an effort to be accomodating to all aspects of society. American society is one of the few not based on being polite to others, the total lack of respect for others exhibited by Americans is further evidence of this. Also most other cultures do not have armed teenagers, we are smarter than that. However, many American habits are being propagated to other countries.
Woe be on to them, all who rise against poor people, shall perish in a the end. Buju Banton
Just to clarify: I do not argue that because they were children they didn't know it is wrong to kill. They knew full well that killing is wrong (I suspect). What they lacked (again, I suspect) was a full appreciation of what happens to people when death steals a loved one. It was not something I even remotely understood at 18; and until my wife lost her father to cancer when he was only 48 and I lost my father to cancer at 62 that death became a palpable material thing. It was only then that I knew the real emptiness of loss, as opposed to what I thought I knew of emptiness as a teenager. I did not mean to be patronizing at all.
I'm 31 years old. I was a misfit in school; so much so that I never joined a distinct subculture. I just wore clothes that weren't trendy, listened to music that wasn't trendy, thought what I wanted and said what I thought. I was isolated, alienated, and generally unimpressed with my peers. My overwhelming feeling was one of pain. Pain at the casual, random cruelty that people inflicted on one another. I'm not religious at all, but I have a favorite verse of the Bible. It is the shortest. "Jesus wept." Do you know what it is like for an overweight male computer geek who cries at the pain of others?
Now I am 31. I'm very mainstream. I've reached equilibrium between my continuing concern for my fellow living things and my relative powerlessness. I'm actually happy. All of this personal revelation is just to lay thr groundwork for what I have to say.
Even now I am forgetting (as I think most adults have forgotten) how powerful adolescent emotions are. I wept, I raged, I suffered. In retrospect, it was a lot of wasted energy, but at the same time I miss the passion I had then.
When I heard the news of Littleton, I heard the demonization of the children who perpetrated this crime. Adults do this so we don't have to own up to our own painful responsibility for this event and others like it. Adolescents need the involvement of caring adults in their lives, not the intrusion of fearful or mistrustful adults. These were not monsters, they were CHILDREN. What they did was monsterous, but there were not adult enough to be monsters. They were not "gunmen" as I hear in the press all the time. If anything, they were "gunboys." Until you have lived through some adult pain (like the death of a parent, etc.) until you know the emptiness of unconsolable loss you don't REALLY know what death means. To these "gunboys" death became a game. Not because they played Doom, but because they hadn't learned through loss the value that life has. They held life cheaply.
I do actually think violent games and movies are a problem, but I do not think they are to blame. I think each of us, parent and child, game maker and movie producer, employer and worker (the economically induced absence of parents plays a part I do not hear enough about), jock and nerd, each of us needs to take a look at how we treat ourselves and one another. We need to ask ourselves if our lives should be this way. The world is not immutably a place of cruelty. We have the power to make this world what we want it to be. We just have to decide within us what has value. Money and power, or compassion and love. It is our choice. It is my choice. It is your choice. Choose.
Heh. You're more punk than me.
Blar.
all that i was trying to say earlier is that we have become that which we hate. i for one do not approve. the nazi's suppressed and killed their brightest thinkers because they posed a threat to Hitler's platform, the were killed unless they were of use in making machines of war. by making the "nerds, geeks and other outcasts" not feeling like they are worth something it is almost as bad as killing a person.
BTW i am from the US, i am a critic of our society. IMVHO capitilism has failed, which has led to valuing objects more than people. there is a problem when the top 5% of the people have 95% of the money. think about that. unless there is a redistribution of the wealth it could become the top 1% has 99% of the money, then one person has all the money. and remember that only 10 years ago the number were about top 25% of the people had 50% of the money, these are numbers more to my liking.
all the concern with trying to get the money has made our society forget what is important, people. if anyone succeds in having a society without people, let me know.
just my ideas, if you want to flame me or whatever here is my email bshelto1.NOSPAM@bigred.unl.edu
I have to agree with your statement that the US is has become everything that it has fought against this century, the US was jsut as bad as the Nazis and with their asian relocation camps, and now some of the brightest thinkers and the people who have the most potential to do well in the future arre now being persicuted (sp?). sounds very similar to Nazi Germany. Now the police and other people who "enforce" the laws don't need probable cause to search anymore? So because I think, and I don't fit into the social norms, the "man" can now obtain a warrent and bust into my home and do what they please? I can't believe what is going on these days.
Just the other day in Lincoln , NE a guy i know, who is a Goth, walks into my former High School and a teacher says, "It's because of people like that things like this happen." the teacher was of course refering to the Colorado events. What kind of society do we live in that this is tolerated? The kids mother called a lawyer and it looks like something is going to happen in the courts, but it will not be enough. I am going back to my high school to talk with the Administration, but I know it will be futile, they just cater to the jocks and the popular kids. But I feel obligated to try. This is something that we all should do, let the schools know what we think, they don't use the 'net, they know it's nothing but porn and sites that promote viloent behavior. And having never used the 'net themselves they are completely justified in their beliefs.
no.
High school was no picnic for me, but I found out the other night, while getting drunk with some people from high school, that I was aclutally looked up to, people liked me, and they respected my views. That blew my mind. The guy said it was because I was dtudent council president, and people thought that made me good people. When do I find out though? two years after I graduate. WTF? So to all you people still in the schools, life does get better, just hold on, we are with you.
to the rest of us do something about the current issues, visit schools, there will be at least one group who will listen to you, start a community group, but get out and make a difference.
just my thoughts. I am also going to move to Canada, the US is not the place I thought it was.
Yes, great job on this article, Jon! Those kids getting harassed in the schools are the next generation of *us*. The intelligent/net/geek culture has now evolved to the point where there are enough of us outside the schools to make a difference. Especially for kids in urban and near-urban or depressed suburban areas, they need our help. Kudos to those who have suggested taking this to the media, the politicians, and the school administrators. Public schools are very reactive to the public-- they need the local public to vote to approve their budgets. Local campaigns to change schools can actually have effects, especially in places where 100 votes is the swing difference between a passed and failed budget. I try to contribute by volunteer teaching in high schools. Often, meeting, encouraging and befriending the kids who remind you of yourself can be a really positive experience in both of your lives. And you can help guide them to a good college. Littletown has really lit a spark at /. Hey, maybe those kids were nothing like us. But the backlash is definitely directed at American culture cracking down on still emerging net culture, and is really hurting the first truly on-line generation. -m
I think we have hit every angle and pointed at every possible source of why this happens, what the after affect have been.. I think i'm pretty much tired of the subject.. We know there are some problems we need to fix.. Instead of sitting here and bitching about, do something about it, beucase it seems that the media has failed our expectations on trying to bring up the real problems. There were many tiny fixes to help out, but why doesn't the media listen and broadcast our ideas? The fixes that can help calm all the shit that is happening are all with in the posts that have been posted in the last week about all of this. But alot of people seem to disagree w/ my fixes, at least from what I have been seeing w/ the reply posts. But I have not heard anything about anyone really agrying w/ my thoughts. Oh well, i'm not saying you are wrong, you might be right. But I was just wondering what people are thinking about my idea on the whole idea...
"The pen is mighter than the sword... But what if you can't write?"
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Well I would of did a submission of this story, but everytime I goto submit a storeo, I get darn doctor watson error... But they found the CIH writer..e rc/docs/036995.htm
http://www.sjmercury.com/svtech/news/breaking/m
"The pen is mighter than the sword... But what if you can't write?"
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
I wrote about this, and people flamed me for it.. I'll find the post and post it again..
"The pen is mighter than the sword... But what if you can't write?"
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=99/04/27/03102 47&threshold=-1&commentsort=0&mode=threa d&cid=2474
"The pen is mighter than the sword... But what if you can't write?"
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Salt Lake City Tribune
"The pen is mighter than the sword... But what if you can't write?"
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Now the media are pointing the blame to guys..
'If you're male, you are classified as a killer now.'.. Wonderful think Opra.. Were my base ball bat?
"The pen is mighter than the sword... But what if you can't write?"
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
How many went to school in the south?
Personally, I went through 3 1/2 years of school in the south and found out something interesting. The schools spend more than they have in overall
cash for the football team than the do on education. I thought school is for education. Since when are sports concidered an education. What
knowlage do you gain from this? Nothing.. You learn how to hit people hard while running with a ball in your hand, ect..
I say that we demand the schools to remove all sports! Spend the money on teaching our kids useful things and bringing up our school from the shit
holes they are.. My HS was a shit hole, but the 5 million over budget stadium looked like a damned palace...
Who with me petitioning the schools and government on a movent to remove sports from schools on the theory that the school are waisting their
money.
Going on just bitching about my HS and sport, they are now advertizing for Rebook, the only thing gained is that the kids playing sports get half off
on Rebook shoes..
Ok, enough about me ranting.. Just thinking about the evil of sports in school and trying to remove it from your local school.
"The pen is mighter than the sword... But what if you can't write?"
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Frankly, I don't really give a damn what Katz's motivations are. This message needs to get out to the greater culture, and if Katz can do that, and as long as he doesn't say anything egregiously incorrect or absurd or self-defeating in the process, more power to him.
--
Do I look like I speak for my employer?
Finally...some sense in this pool of whining self pity! Sure, middle school/high school kids can be cruel (and often are), but you guys need to stop whining about it...just because your skin isn't thick enough.
This whole series of articles is kind of annoying...it just baits all of the 'the system sucks, screw The Man, I'm not a cookie cutter kid' comments thrown out by those lacking either the social or mental skills to survive in the jungle...
Sure, the 'the system' isn't perfect...but all this talk of anarchy and other such craziness...get a grip!
CJK
Ah..._this_ is what I've been hoping to see more of in the comments here (but it's sorely lacking)..someone who has a backbone AND a clue!
The predators prey on those they perceive to be the weakest...if they don't sense weakness, they'll move on. You don't have to like these 'jocks' (? let's not give the impression that if you're good at sports than you're automatically an asshole)...just stick with the golden rule and you'll be fine with the _overwhelming_ majority of them.
CJK
- a massive lab of Apple IIe's, which was all most of the faculty knew how to use
- 2 smaller labs of 286s, which were used for "high tech" courses like PASCAL and word processing
- a lab with low-end pentiums that belonged to a local community college and was only allowed to be used for the CAD class
Any attempts to do decent programming had to be done at home bacause of the lack of decent technology. I come from an upper middle class community, so I know the majority of school districts are worse off than that. In most instances, a technologically oriented club would be fairly futile due to the outdatedness of technology in most public schools. There are a select few communities where people don't bitch and whine when the school tax bills don't include anything "superfluous" like computers.#define F(x) int main(){printf(#x,10,#x);}
F(#define F(x) int main(){printf(#x,10,#x);}%cF(%s))
Could I have taught her to read?
;o)
Yes, you could have. Don't sell yourself short.
A structured, "scholastic" approach like phonics isn't the only way children learn to read. I was reading long before I even got near a classroom. My parents didn't even set out to teach me to read that young, they just *read* to me.
One reason your wife (and mine) had to go through all that teacher training is because teachers have to deal with up to 30 or more students in a classroom. Teaching in an environment like that requires a teacher to constantly adjust for the different skill levels of the different students. In home schooling, you're dealing with a much smaller class size.
Your rant seems to have little to do with the prior post, aside from the fact that you see home schooling as a big threat to your wife's livelihood. No, home schooling's not for everyone. I'm a firm believer in public education. But it *can* be a viable choice for some. Don't dump your and your wife's frustrations out on the previous poster. His mother was obviously very involved with her children's education, moreso than many of the parents of my wife's students, and she should be commended, not berated.
Asking moderators to impose YOUR taste on the discussion... Tsk, tsk.
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
A suggestion to all the high schoolers who are currently undergoing this horrible witch hunt: Contact the ACLU. They may be able to help by providing a legal argument against the school's ghastly policies.
Deepak Saxena
1999 - Year of the Penguin
Linux Demo Day '99 - http://www.linuxdemo.org
We need to get this stuff into the mainstream media instead of preaching to the converted on this and other sites. It looks like this may start to happen.
Katz mentioned previously that reporters were trawling this site looking for people and stories. A nice followup article would be to analyze any resulting press to see how well they grasped the issues. Might let us know how well we do at communicating our views 'out there'.
What I personally fear more than that the torment of "geeks" will continue is schools and society will make it nearly impossibel to interact with others without fear of words being taken as harassment or torment.
Most of us who had to suffer at the hands of bullies, and the "popular" crowd did not go and blow 12, or even 1 person away. We learned to deal with. I think the most succesful of us who dealt with it had good support from our families.
With the ever declining strength of the family unit, and lack of almost anyone in the US taking responsibility for their own actions, kids have no place to turn for support and positive reinforcement.
I think these are the issues that need to be addressed, not the teasing that goes on, has gone and on, and probably will go on for years to come. Freedom of expression has a price, and I'd rather pay that price, and help my children pay that price, than see those freedom's restricted.
Yawn.
A passe 90s update to the usual lame, tired 60s hippie jingoism.
Oh and I can't belive you got throught your entire lame-ass rant without mentioning The Man.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
You asked for it..
The mandatory hell referred to as high school will always be one of the most detrimental experiences an individual can go through until some fundamental changes take place.
Always, huh? I had a pretty good time in high school. (A better time in college, but that is beside the point). That is flawed thought #1.
Mandatory? Drop out and get your GED if your so smart. Flaw #2 for those counting at home.
What we need to understand is that the jocks, preps, and wacko administration kiss-asses do not go away once high school is over. They become the new generation of teachers, cops, judges, businessmen, etc.
So basically they become productive members of society... I'm with you so far...
They do well in life because they already have the advantage of being well-to-do, accepted by the rest of the mundane society, and "on the right track."
Plenty of other people do well in life who are not born well-to-do, accepted by society, etc.. I humbly offer up myself as a counterexample to your thesis. This is error #3.
In case anyone hasn't figured it out, high school is a training ground for the workforce. All the necessary skills of obedience, blind acceptance, kissing butt, the willingness to sacrifice 66% of your day to mind-numbing and pointless work or sleep --- these are the "job skills" that need to be learned by the innately free-willed human being to fit into our mechanical capitalist hell.
That's funny, I learned stuff in high school. Anyway, if you don't like it, opt of out the system, move somewhere else. Enjoy your workers paradise.
Of course, nothing of this has to do with the fact that our society has been running on an authoritarian structure that places a small group of people as an elite over other groups and, ultimately, all of the "masses."
Oh please....anyway, I've got to snip some of this, its just not even worth responding to.
So what are we doing whining about it on this message board? Let's overthrow the music industry with MP3's, overthrow the tech industry with free software, and overthrow the corporation-state's power monopoly through plain old internet anarchy!
Ah yes, the ultimate form of revolution, warez MP3s and unix clones. Viva revolution.
Oh and the thought that you want some plain old internet anarchary on a system that was developed by the miliatary, run by large telcoms, and is accessed by computers that are built by large corporations is very ironic in that Alanis Morisette sort of way.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
Dear Principal;
This is an open letter, of which I have sent copies to several other staff members. It concerns the recent shootings in Littleton, Colorado, and the reactions to them of high- and secondary-school principals and administrators all over US, Canada, and the world. I assume you've seen some of the media reports.
I'm not concerned that Bunclody FCJ is going to, for instance, ban black trenchcoats, or stop the students from listening to Marilyn Manson. You know as well as I do how pointless that is, even though many schools worldwide are doing just that.
This letter is to draw attention to a situation that exists within the halls, corridors and classrooms of Bunclody. This is the merciless bullying of those who are clever, intelligent, individual, or just plain different.
The shootings in Colorado were committed by two teenagers who, throughout their school lives, had been bullied, pressured, beaten, and verbally abused by the "popular" students. They had reacted by withdrawing into a group of likeminded people, and this only exacerbated the situation. Eventually, they snapped.
I can't condone what they did; nobody can. But they did it for reasons which I am and was all too familiar with.
In first year in Bunclody, I was miserable. I got verbal abuse for being intelligent, for reading, for not having money. I got physical abuse in the form of my books and food being stolen and thrown about. I was pushed into lockers, locked into cupboards, and tripped up. Even some of the teachers made negative comments, in public, about my religion, since I was Church of Ireland, and the abusive students didn't stop at comments.
In January of my first year, I think, I too snapped. At being pushed by one of the more persistent bullies, I went crazy. I hit everything in a five foot radius, and finished up by biting the bully in question quite hard in the forearm.
After this, I had peace and quiet. I never reported the incident, or any other, since it was perfectly clear that if I did, I too would be in trouble, both with the administration and with some of the other students.
I got out early, and was left to indulge my geekish nature thereafter, studying sciences, playing in the Orchestra, playing with computers, and even playing Dungeons and Dragons in Room 51 during lunchtimes. For this, I thank all of you, it's the part of school that made me what I am today.
What came close to making me someone very different, though, is something that probably still exists. It is the attitude that "hard knocks" are just a part of school. Daily, there are events in classrooms and school corridors all over this country that are violations of privacy, and of basic human rights.
Do not ignore these. Nurture the outsiders - they are the ones who go on to be the movers and shakers of the world. Provide places for them to take refuge - libraries, computer rooms, science labs, canteens, music rooms. Make these areas supervised, but nothing more, no rules of silence or study. Just the presence of a teacher or other staff member is all that is necessary.
Further, allow them access to books, to computers and computer games, to the internet, to board games and role playing games, to musical instruments, and to crafts and art tools. Do not make this compulsory.
Finally, there is one other point, and I know this will be a thorny subject in Bunclody. Games, particularly hurling and hockey, should not be compulsory. I dreaded the changing rooms and sports fields more than any other area in the school, and still feel uncomfortable when I think of them.
I hope that I've made some impact with this letter. Letters like it are being posted to many other schools, newspapers, and other fora. Hopefully, we can learn from the Littleton shootings.
Finally, thank you again for providing me the opportunities I mentioned above. Due to the Orchestra, the computer room, and the D&D games, I am now the Senior Webmaster for IONA Technologies PLC. Should you wish to publish this letter to the students - a move I would heartily endorse - please remove the identification, as both of my brothers still attend the school, and I would not like undue attention brought onto them, for all the reasons above.
Drew Shiel.
>I'm off topic again, but "On the turning away" >isn't really pink floyd, since it is from the >post Waters period...
Well, neither is Waters, because he's from the post Barrett period. Barrett made Floyd, Waters used Floyd to whine, and Gilmour used Floyd to make money. But, if you ask me, TDB was much better than post "Wall" Waters albums.
But, if you ask me, I'll probably just tell you to go get a copy of the Syd Barrett box set and be done with it.
(gee how original)
i remember waiting with the rest of the seniors at the beginning of our last semester in high school for our class picture. me and a friend of mine who were "troublemakers" (i had been called to the office all of one time during my 3 years at this school, for smoking. outside. after school was out.) were pulled out by the vice-principal. we'd done nothing wrong, but because of our attitude and how we were dressed, she asked us our names (nope, she knew we were troublemakers, but not what our names were) and proceeded to look us up in her book to see if we indeed had enough credits to be able to graduate that year. imagine her surprise when she saw all the AP/Honor classes we were enroled in. her non-existent apology was great, i'm glad i'm out of school, and even though it's been four years already, i still harbor anger and resentment to the people who had nothing better to do than to check up on me for no reason other than for who i hung around with.
this is just a placeholder till i send back my real sig from the future.
I'm one of the people who fit the nerd/geek/wierdo category. This article is very thoughtful, and extremely well worded. I can say as a person who spent every year of school until my junior year of highschool being tormented, that it is worse than a lot of people can imagine. What saved me?
One day, I stopped myself from snapping back at somone, and thought about it for a second. What exactly did 'nerd' mean to me? It meant someone who did well in school, who liked learning, who loved science, computers, and being their own person. At that moment, it stopped bothering me, and within a month of that, they stopped bothering me. They started to respect me, because I respected myself, and realized that I could be proud of myself.
So, to all you nerds out there, I have a few words of encouragement. Stand up for yourselves. Stand tall, be proud. We are the people who really make society run.
--
Matthew Walker
My DNA is Y2K compliant
Matthew Walker
http://www.tweeterdiet.com/ - My Diet Tracking Tool
You all keep saying this issue has been beaten into the gound and there's nothing still to be said and that no one cares. I think the large number of comments that have more to say and agree with Katz prove you wrong. If you aren't interested in this topic, don't read it, and PLEASE don't post annoying comments telling Katz to stop, you're just making things worse, and making it harder for those of us who ARE interested in this to read it.
It's true that the ability of media is simply to reflect back images from it's own audience. It's not creative and in that sense very limited. However, I think you've lost sight of the fact that this is the voice of the oppressed. These are otherwise voiceless people finally being given the opportunity to speak. While Katz may be droning a bit, the beating of the drumn may be making some of our heads ache, that doesn't mean it isn't extrememely important that this continue. In fact, as long as these kids are still in pain and oppressed then it _must_ continue if things will ever change. You seem to take offense that the geeks are recieving so much attention here at this geek website. Would you go to a minority race or gay supporting website and tell everyone to get over it? I know, you likely feel this site is supposed to be about the tech, but the tech is part of a culture and really (as long as I've been around) slashdot hasn't only been about the tech. Many, many issues have found voice on this site. I think this one has particular importance.
Drone on Katz!! The geek voice must begin to be heard.
WSB well adjusted? YOu have read his works I'm assuming?
Considering his imagery is very dark, disturbing, and preoccupied with madness, death, and control, it fits quite well into the themes of "gothic literature". However its modernist and not romantic so the dear old queer's prose is quite different from the most traditional writers of gothic literature.
I'm finding the slight anti-goth sentiment amusing. Considering that quite a few goths are computer professionals (where else can you stay up all night, wear what you want, delve into esoteric lore, and drink lots and lots of caffine) and I know that several of them are reading this. At the same time more than a few goths are complete pretnetious assholes.
This servers to prove that while we're very quick to denouce the mundane world of jocks and pinheads, we're just as quick to tear into each other like a pack of raving jackals.
Welcome to reality, please join the "everyone get out and push" comitte and do lend a hand.
Dr. Fardook
lycos@bway.net
Dr. Fardook drfardook@evilconspiracy.com
No we do not.
What we need is to end the "Glory" for sports. If you are on a team an you commit an act of physical violence. You are inelegable to play for the rest of the year. If it happens again your can not be on a team. No specail privlags for team players and you have to maintain a 3.0 GPA. If you are not doing above average work then you should be spending more time studying.
Oh yea. No fund raising for sports teams you can still give money to the school but they will have to decide on how to spend it. And lets get rid of the ritual ego stroke called the pep rally. Don't take pride in your school take pride in yourself.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Zero tolerance=zero thinking.
When I was in 9th grade and friend stole my hair brush form my back pocket so playing I grabed him and said drop the hair brush. I got sent to the deans office for "fighting". should I have been booted from school? I know I have told someone "If you do that one more time I am going to kill you" Haven't you?
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Moving on won't help anything. Don't forget about it just because it's not entertaining you anymore.
--- A Jesus Fish eating a Darwin Fish only proves Darwin's point.
"the teasing that goes on, has gone on, and probably will go on for years to come"
Again and again I see people in the media and people posting on /. and other forums perpetuate this myth that "teasing" is the problem, and also that "everyone gets teased at that age", etc etc.
We are not, I'm afraid, talking about teasing .. heck, school wouldve been a breeze if I just had to put up with some teasing ... what many here are talking about is being victims of physically violent crimes for years on end. Being *physically* assaulted - understand that. Many kids are getting beaten up and knocked around *daily*. In the "adult world", people get thrown in jail for doing the types of things that teachers turn a blind eye to every single day - beating up people is not considered protected free speech, I'm afraid.
.. how about we just remove all of those authoritarian rules stating that it is illegal to commit acts of physical assault against others. And how about we take away those oppressive little laws saying that it is illegal to rape women. I mean, those laws just address the problem after its already started. The only real way to solve the problem of physical assault and rape is by education .. parents should teach kids that it is wrong to rape women, beat up other people, hate others because of their class/race etc. Just this education alone should be enough .. but applying authoritarian tactics such as anti-child-abuse and anti-murder laws will just harbor resentment and make everyone feel oppressed, failing to solve anything.
... you know, all those "cute-little-things-that-kids-do, that are part-of-growing-up, and if-you-just-ignore-them-they-will-go-away, and you-must-have-done-something-to-provoke-them, and why-dont-you-try-fit-in".
Think carefully about this -- the types of behaviour this poster suggested passing legislation against - peer abuse - falls into the same class as all of the other physically violent crimes. He did not make suggestions to the effect of "ban people wearing trenchcoats" (an obvious violation of freedom of expression for an act that cannot harm others). Rather, he wants to pass rules against physical violence, such as "smash someones head into a locker", "punch someone in the stomach so that they cant breath for five minutes", "beat someone with metal chains till they're covered in bruises", "throw glass bottles at someone", "break someones arm", "stab someone with a knife"
Sorry to bust your bubble, but NOT everyone in school has to deal with being physically assaulted every day for literally years on end. At least, back in my school, probably less than 5% of the students got beaten up at all, let alone every single day for years.
.. tell me, pleeeease, I would love to know, what is the "intelligent rational manner" to respond to that? Make witty comments? Threaten these people with a lawsuit? Um, yeah, I really see that all helping!
.. were you physically assaulted, day-in, day-out, for years on end? If so, do you really believe that everyone else was also?
:) You see the same behaviour cropping up in many other situations, for example, as a clinical depressive, I've often had to deal with the "sheez, everyone gets depressed sometimes" crap, from people who know absolutely nothing about clinical depression. Now its the "sheez, everyone gets picked on at school" crap.
And, if I may ask, lets say I am in a situation where I am approached by a group of "popular, athletic-type students", and they decide to start beating me up, and I am on my own, nowhere to run/hide, and noone is around to help me, and the teachers etc that I have told about this have all in the past said "just ignore them" or "try harder to fit in"
You say you were "treated as weird" in HS
Apparently some people are feeling left out of the whole "victimhood" thing or something
Sure, life can be cruel, I mean, children get molested, people get murdered and women get raped. But these victims need to stop whining about it .. I mean, its so annoying, these women who just whine all the time about getting raped and so on, just because they lack the physical skills to survive in the jungle ...
.. sorry, not tough enough to survive in the jungle, I guess.
.. just "not tough enough to survive in the jungle", I wish they would stop whining. And those damn Red Injuns the Americans blew away when they arrived, they werent tough enough, now they're some whiny "minority group".
.. if we're not careful these whiny minority-group victims might put an end to the age of white male supremacy.
.. what are you gonna tell her .. she wasn't tough enough to "survive in the jungle"? Your kid perhaps gets his arm broken one day by a bunch of bullies, you gonna tell him the same thing? A relative abuses your 8-year old daughter, gonna tell her the same thing?
I mean, who cares about "rights" and all that other BS that America was founded upon. If you aren't tough enough to make it yourself, it must be YOUR fault that then, that you couldnt protect yourself when you were 6 and your stepfather molested you
How about those 6 million jews then
Too bad the millions of black people oppressed for years in South Africa just "couldn't survive in the jungle".
And how about those damn Kosovo refugees, whining about being "victims" 'n all that, they should learn to defend themselves, damnit.
We better watch our backs
Sure, 'the system' isn't perfect - but like I'm trying to say here, instead of trying to improve the system where it has failed victims, we should just sit on our asses and do nothing, or better, accuse the victims that they werent tough enough! Like maybe your wife gets raped one day
Disclaimer, this article is parody of the article it responds to, etc etc.
I mean, who really wants to, like, make an effort to, like, help other people who are suffering?
... we don't want the inconvenience and uncomfortable-feeling that taking action would bring. We just want to live in our little bubbles where we don't have to know about suffering. Then we can get on with watching Mad About You, Baywatch and the X-Files.
Some of use were very comfortable just cruising along and generally pretending not to notice that people right near us are in serious pain
People like Jon Katz bother me, I mean, like, why can't we just like, ignore all the folks around us who are suffering, crying out for help, being pushed to the brink of homicide/suicide every day? Why do we have to be reminded of facts like "suicide is the third leading cause of death in America"? I have a right to live in an ignorance-induced selfish bliss, damnit!
/parody off
On your second assertion, I disagree completely. There are two salient points here that I want to address: the relative validity of cultures in general and the meaning of the term culture in this context.
You would be right about Katz being arrogant if he were somehow excluding "your culture" by affirming another, but that's not what he is doing. He only says that "your culture" doesn't need to affirm itself by denying and denigrating other cultures. That's a sign of insecurity, not superiority. Your examples of "other bad cultures" are similarly telling. (I use the quoted phrase "your culture" to indicate mainstream American culture, with which you seem to associate yourself. I apologize if this isn't your feeling.)
In the context of this article, "culture" doesn't mean a national or even regional culture, it refers to a clique or "sub-culture" within a larger framework. The existence of such a sub-culture does not invalidate or impugn the values of the larger culture, nor does it in any way restrict of the larger culture's right to ignore this clique. This is true irrespective of the tenets of that sub-culture, as long as the actions of the sub-culture do not violate laws of the larger culture. Thus "a death-obsessed culture" for example is not "ethically illegitimate" unless you think that blindly ignoring that death exists is fundamental to the wider American culture. Which isn't to say that you can't criticize it, just don't dismiss it out of hand without actually experiencing it, or at least getting to know someone who is a part of it.
You also show yourself as a promulgator of a problem "sub-culture" when you categorize anyone mentioned in Katz's article as "death-obsessed". In my experience, goths and Doom players alike are no more obsessed with death than cheerleaders or basketball players.
It has been my experience that some "mainstream" Americans are overly dismissive of all things unfamiliar. The "sub-cultures" (from jocks to teachers to parents) criticized in this article are an ugly instance of this kind of behavior. Your implicit assertion is yet another example. An example of a similar sub-culture that is "ethically illegitimate" would be the KKK. Obviously that is an extreme case, the criteria for which neither jocks nor goths nor geeks can fulfill.
Yow, that's really too many words. Hopefully I got my ideas across to you. I think that my most salient point is the one implicit in my argument: that all people are members of more than one "culture", and that's okay. I feel that this underscores the entire problem of this whole witch-hunt mentality in the aftermath of the horrible events in Littleton.
--
This is why I don't post much.
yeah... and wright, mason, and gilmour NEVER wrote anything when waters was with them...
and r.e.m.? well, they are gone too... that new Up album, that was somebody else...
some comments are best kept to oneself, Hobbex
-G.
From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
/-'väl-v&-b&l, -'vol- also -'vä-v&- or -'vo-v&-/ adjective /-'välv-m&nt, -'volv- also -'väv- or -'vov-/ noun
evolve
Pronunciation: i-'välv, -'volv, E- also -'väv or -'vov
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): evolved; evolving
Etymology: Latin evolvere to unroll, from e- + volvere to roll -- more at VOLUBLE
Date: 1641
transitive senses
1 : EMIT
2 a : DERIVE, EDUCE b : to produce by natural evolutionary processes c : DEVELOP, WORK OUT evolve social,
political, and literary philosophies -- L. W. Doob>
intransitive senses : to undergo evolutionary change
- evolvable
- evolvement
No where in there do I see anything about evolve implying a better or more sophisticated change. While that is certainly true much of the time, you will find that not all are for the best (reptiles evolutionary adaptation to heat gave them a serious disadvantage in the cold). Segmentation also occurs along the pathways of evolution; just look at the varieties of bird of any single species; the number of subspecies for, say, finches will undoubtedly astound you.
As far as cultural evolution, well, I have heard about it; our anthropologists at the university discuss it, not a change for the better in the culture, but a change that results in a more complex environment (i.e., more rituals, differing religions are introduced, living to an older age, etc.). Events like these force a culture to change, because all culture are defined by a set of "rules" (for lack of a better word) that allows an outsider with knowledge of them to gain an idea of the structure a particular culture. Segmentation has and will often occur; just look at the differences in the Oriental and Native American cultures... a few similarities, many differences, and a common root. So, yes, Katz was correct with using "evolve" in context with changing cultures, although, for a nit-picking point, perhaps the use of "adaptation" would have been better (since, biologically, you must adapt before you can evolve). Either way, evolution does have a place in cultural anthropology.
-G.
>- A. Coward said:
"As a last resort, drop out, home school, and take your GED. You won't be able to get into a 4-year college, but if you take the junior college route, you should be able to attend a 4-year with a little work."
I REALLY have to disagree with this; homeschooling and always has been a viable option to public indoctrination. Four year colleges actually embrace homeschooled applicants; ask the admission directors at the Ivy League schools, Stanford, U. of Chicago, Duke, Washing and Lee, and they will all tell you that a homeschooled student is more disciplined in their studies, does better in college, and rarely drops out. Most homeschool students that go to college thoroughly enjoy the experience; they are treated no differently; in fact, some of my friends said that when they told the people where they went to college that they were homeschooled, the vast majority of students and professors were interested in it, with some students coming right out and stating they had wished they were homeschooled. There are no increased admission requirements (which are disallowed by law, anyways), and the GED is only required for public universities (but it is a matter of a formality only). I would seriously suggest to any that feel out of place in high school, and have a willing and capable family, to investigate homeschooling. Take you education into your own hands, and you will actually *gasp* learn more and enjoy it.
As for those with working parents, well, its real simple; class in the evening, work during the day, and you get to sleep late. You'll find with the one-on-one instruction, especially in high school, you will only really need 2-3 hours of it a day, if that; my brother last year did calculus, physics, and C/Python programming himself, with my mother only instructing him on history and english literature/composition. He was, when he applied for college this year, accepted at Princeton, U. of Virginia (we live in TN), Berry College in GA, College of Charleston, Transylvania U. in KY, and U. of Tennessee, which were all the schools he applied to. Not only that, he was granted full academic scholarship everywhere except Princeton, were he obtained a measly $20,000 in aid (they do not give merit scholarships). Gee, not bad for a homeschool student.
And what about me, you ask? I insisted on staying public school. I enjoyed one year (my junior year), was critically ill my freshman year, and despised the other two years. Junior year, things clicked with a few people, but they graduated and moved on. I never did fit in (although I really don't have any horror stories). And now, a junior in college, I regret my decision to not homeschool with my little brother.
I believe that this is part of the answer; you can go through and try to change it, damaging you children in the process through the ridicule and mockery that is almost guaranteed to fall on them if you do so, or can pull them out and educate them yourself, and then try to change it. If you are still in high school and are reading this, I do seriously suggest you talk to your parents about this. And parents, talk to your high school children. Just think: a better education, far less boredom, and no need to worry about the Kevlar vest...
-G.
There is too much misguided talk in the media about the culpability of the internet, movies, games, trenchcoats, guns, etc. This is resulting in proposals to counter these specific objects (be they guns, trenchcoats, or computers).
There just isn't enough talk about the actual problem: the unchecked hatred that was brewing in these kids heads. The hatred did not come from the internet, from guns, or from trenchcoats. It came from:
Kids at school must be better protected from eachother's cruel comments and deeds. If Johnny slugs Kevin or calls him a "freak", then Johnny should have to stand up in front of the class and teachers and explain himself.
It's time for the kids who are dishing out abuse at school to be held accountable. Instead of metal detectors, we need hate detectors. For this to happen, teachers and administration have to stop turning a deaf ear.
Kids should be assigned to work in pairs on month-long assignments with people who are not in their subculture. This will not only teach them teamwork, which is an important skill, but also let them see eachother more as human beings rather than stereotyped enemies.
Once the seeds of hatred have been planted and allowed to grow, then the ready availability of guns and other weapons will lead to disasterous results. No matter how much we try to limit access to weapons or information, or how tight the school fortress is made, inmates - uh, I mean kids, bent on killing will find a way. Just look at prisons - a place where there is no internet access (AFAIK), no pipe bombs or guns for sale, and no trenchcoats. Just plain old hatred.
I too was in this position in high school and strongly agree that something need to be done to change this. But right now there is a huge barier in the way; People are scared of us. What can we expect, they don't understand us and a member of our group just brutily massecured 13 children.
In order to fix this problem we need to show*them something different. I stress show, not tell. Get together as a group and volenteer to visit elderly, read to chidren, clean up a park, or something less corny that i cant thing of now:) Don't be hostile, acting the same way they do to us will only add to the stereotype they have put on us.
If we force them to look past our appearance they will see that we really are human.
kmactane is right, this is the only thing that will get people to change their minds. Their attention is on us, we make the next move. If we act hostile, they will continue to belive that we are all potential killers. If we slip into the background everyone will forget about the problem and things will continue to be the same. However, if we show them that we are good people and that we are treated unjustly they will listen to us and then we can start to make a change.
Our civilization has the history of swinging from one extreme to the other. The majority opresses the minority until they have the strengh to rebel and gain power. But then rather than learning from the past the new majority starts persecuting the new minority. This cycle has been going on since the dawn of time and can still be seen in goary detail in yugoslavia.
Our country is an attemt to change that. It is not perfect, but it is not bad. Please don't ruin everything that people have done to improve the balence of power in our country by advocating mindless anarchy.
Instead we should learn from those that have and continue to make a different like the black and woman rights advocists. It is a long hard road to change but it is *real* change. Not a role swap.
If we have the power to make a difference, like you say we do, then we should use it to fix the system not destroy it.
Our civilization has the history of swinging from one extreme to the other. The majority opresses the minority until they have the strengh to rebel and gain power. But then rather than learning from the past the new majority starts persecuting the new minority. This cycle has been going on since the dawn of time and can still be seen in goary detail in yugoslavia.
Our country is an attemt to change that. It is not perfect, but it is not bad. Please don't ruin everything that people have done to improve the balence of power in our country by advocating mindless anarchy.
Instead we should learn from those that have and continue to make a different like the black and woman rights advocists. It is a long hard road to change but it is *real* change. Not a role swap.
If we have the power to make a difference, like you say we do, then we should use it to fix the system not destroy it.
Well, after three articles carpet bombing the same concept over and over again (one to introduce the concept, two to thump his chest about how right he is), all Katz can say is that public education is to blame and that the non-conformists need protection to ensure their dignity. Gimmie a break.
Katz is just as guilty of stereotyping as the media and the "ethically corrupt" educational society/system. Jocks have all the advantages, administrators and teachers stack the deck against the non-conformists, cheerleaders are a bunch of nine inch nailed harpies who's primary function in life is to point out the inadequacies of their somehow "lesser" peers. They're all bad characatures of the images from films like Back to the Future and a thousand different 80's "coming of age films". I'd like to think we could expect better of Katz.
Instead, we get the same tired story (three times!) that the media is giving us, except with a slightly different slant: High School as an institution is to blame. What a crock. Katz spices it up with testimonials from the dispossesed of the US secondary education system, providing their worldview as the only proper one, and the worldview of their peers as a demented perversion of the utopian vision of a world where everyone is respected for their views.
I'd say Katz's knowledge of modern high school administration ranks right up there with his grasp of quantum physics. It's far more complex than he portrays, and his seemingly willful ignorance of its true nature that I find increasingly disturbing. The true nature of a school is a place where widely different social and cultural groups try to come together to learn the basic skills they need to function in our society. Why doesn't Katz acknowledge this and make any attempt to get to the psychological, behavioral, and social root of what happened in Colorado?
My guess is that he has no clue, but he feels compelled to chime in on his own personal blame game....
Paranoia strike deep
into your life it will creep.
It starts when you are afraid
step out of line,
the men come and take you away.
by Buffalo Springfield, circa 1968
Bullshit.
What I'm saying is punish behavior that is illegal already in any other venue.
Either you have zero tolerance for abuse, or you don't. Your post makes it seem you are willing to tolerate abuse.
Yup. Like my post says, teachers who are found to be doing this should receive swift, sure and severe punishment, monetary and administratively.
So what's your plan for action .
and mandating penalties for students, teachers, administrators.
Examples:
Knocking books out of someone's arms: 5 double dententions
Making a public comment that in any way impugns another student's integrity: 5 double dententions
For a teacher, dock 2 weeks pay.
A threat of physical violence: 2 weeks suspension
Actual physical violence: 1 quarter suspension
Threat of retaliation for report of infraction:
1 year suspension
Death threat, however casual: Permanent Expulsion
Teacher or administration shown on 3 occasions to have ignored abuse: 1 quarter suspension without pay
Fuck the teacher's union. They either sign on or take a walk.
BEEEEEP!
>America is still far more tolerant of teen angst than any place in the world.
Where did you dig that up?
Not that it would matter to qualify any place in the world as "geek heaven"...
I strongly believe that trying to be clever is detrimental to your health. -- Linus Torvalds
Maybe you don't think they know, but they do. On mor ethan one occasion while I was in HS I had encounters with principals & teachers who blamed my problems on myself for being different & not 'fitting in'. I had a couple teachers even agree with the people abusing me that I didn't have a right to exist. Several more thought I should just 'take it no matter what'.
Teachers, principals, conselours (don't make me go into the worthless consulour at my school), school board members, etc can all have been those popular people when they had been in HS & some people never do grow up no matter how old they get, so of course they can be just as bad as any kids can if not worse since they are given the control.
Now my parents where the blind ones, they didn't understand school==hell. They felt I should be able to put up with taunts & lack of social interaction from others (thats all they thought it was). They still don't get it today, they probably never will.
As much as I hate to have to mention this but that was the title of a CD not that many years ago. It had alternative music on it, when that was considered 'bad'.
I hate to trivielize (it was sold by a rather strange means) your point by mentioning that, but I felt I had to point out that it is hard to get people to do something even when you have a CD that sells all across the country to try to get recognition for your cause.
I feel that people should indeed do something about the problems, but I think your point that it has to be on paper is a bit off. FOr most of us paper isn't or best medium. We should hold to our strengths.
It's also a better palce for people like myself who aren't in HS any longer & aren't parents, so we have less contact with the parties involved anymore. Lets have webpages, lets use email, etc, etc. Thik of a free web service (fortunecity, Geocities, etc) having whole sections that are nothing but the stories of abuse & harassment that accured during ES, MS, & HS. Each one a personal story by one of us. Each talking baout what might have made/will make our lives better during tht period.
I guess you came to a good school here. let me show you the differences between what you pointed out & my old HS:
1. Indeed we didn't have school uniforms, but they brought it up several times a year & now it seems liek they are going through with it. But we didn't have anywhere to work (unless you owned a car, which was rare), so no one could really work to try to get new clothes.
2. We didn't have a choice in classes the school was to small to have more than couple of choices (& none until 11th grade). Your choices were 1 of 2 different science & math courses. Oh & you had the chance to take french or spanish. lots of choice there. The popular kids tended to take the stupid do nothing classes, the others (like myself) took the tougher ones.
3. Students sure did believe that, it was left up to the individual to be inspired to get good grades. parents normally didn't liek bad grades, but then if you were a joke or cheerleader you automatically got those good grades without doing anything.
4. Sure HS was easy class wise. Dumbasses like half the population would never get through unless they were like that. After all everyone cannot be a jock no matter what (their simply aren't enough sports for that). In fact mine only had track, baseball, & foot ball.
5. No free food, you buy your lunch or you pack it. No free books, better buy those boy we don't have money to buy you books we need football uniforms. Clubs? What clubs? we didn't have: language clubs, art clubs, computer clubs, drama clubs, etc. We didn't even have the normal 'geeek' clubs like chess, debate, etc.
Maybe it's not exactly a police state, but it can't get to far from it when you add in that if your disliked you can be freely assaulted & tramitized by anyone at anytime for some people.
Not every school in the US is the same. They do though have the same hierchy though, nearly letter for letter. It's no wonder the ones like myself compared HS with a police state.
An armed society is a polite society.
or as a student interviewed on NPR last night (4/28/99) said.
If you don't give people crap they won't shoot you.
I to remember the revenge fantasies and the hate that wells up till you can't keep it down. I came close to that edge but was pulled back because my fathers shrink took action. He had asked my father to bring me to a session to meet me. When he did he talked the whole time to me. He convinced my parents to take action. They convinced the school system to take action. I would not be here having a good life if it had not been for that action.
I think the biggest problem here is that everyone is looking for a Cause. Because more than likely the Cause they find will not be them. What we all need to do is take responsibility for our part in the problem. It may be a small part but it is a part that we each can fix.
In Service
Charles Puffer
Gaywads, Dorkwads Sign Historic Wad Accord
don't forget punks. godless, heathen, freethinking, insurgent, fun having, and loud kids.
if i was afraid of anyone pulling a gun, it'd be some crazy jock or one of those uptight military kids who don't have any friends because they're such dickheads. not geeks, losers, nerds, weirdos, goths, punks, or whathaveyou. (yeh i don't dig the labels, either. but they admittingly fit a lot of people.)
-- burn4 "kill whitey"
The problems with our schools aren't centered around geeks or goths or any other stereotyped subculture. Rather than look to the schools to do something for geeks and to change, we would be far better off to simply bypass the schools to the greatest extent possible. This is part of what people who are involved in home schooling are doing. Most educators detest home schooling and it's not because the home schooled kids are not learning, but because they are. Warm bodies in chairs represents money to every school system in the country. Whether that person's time is wasted in that chair is irrelevant to the school from an economic point of view. So teachers get upset when someone comes along and keeps their meal ticket at home. Schools are never going to improve as long as they enjoy a monopoly on the education of the young. Force them to improve by forcing them to compete. When I went to high school the teachers there worked to convince us that they had power over our lives and our future. The truth is that they are little more than glorified babysitters. I'll let everyone out there who is still in high school in on a little secret, your grades don't mean jack compared to your scores on the SAT. Of course if you are trying for MIT or another extremely competitive school your grades will be important because all the applicants have good grades. But if you're looking to go to the state university where you are from, you probably don't even have to graduate, a GED with good SAT scores will get you in the door no problem. At the very worst you would have to spend a semester or two at a junior college to prove yourself. Unless you're in an advanced/gifted program, the things you learn in class are no preparation for the SAT. Don't let the pitiful level that most subjects are taught at hold you back. Your future depends on you, what you know and how well you know it. There are many pieces of paper that will help get you in the door to a university or a job. But once you are there they mean exactly jack. What you do then and there will mean absolutely everything. If someone has an impressive degree, but they are incompetent, they will not be promoted and will eventually be fired. So don't let some teacher fool you into thinking that he or she has an important station in life and that your future depends on their good graces. Pursue your own interests and don't look to them to challenge you or teach you very much, that's not what they are paid for.
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Maybe I just have a really sick sense of humor, but I think what this guy wrote is a perfectly legitimate piece of satire. Our world is just about at the point where you might actually see an ad like that.
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
I hear myself screaming inside and I know that I hear the cries of millions.
Every day I go to school wishing for it to be different. Wanting a place for hope, a place to learn, a place without hate, and a place where being different isn't so wrong. But instead I find myself trapped in a prison of conformity. They tell me how I should be just like everybody else, how I should play their sports, how I should join their clubs, and how I should give up everything I have to be like them. They all want me to conform to their rules, but they won't tell me why. They have no answers to the questions I ask. No one can tell me why I should put up with so much torment; they only tell me that I should.
The bell rings and horror fills my heart. It's so hard to force myself into the halls, into the torment of loneliness. I hear their shouts from all around; I can feel their cold stares into what they don't understand; and I can taste their bitterness as they mock me and laugh at what's different from them, what they don't understand. Their hate is so much, and their reason so little. It's like a fire in their hearts, not caring what it consumes, just as long as it can keep burning. Today it consumed me, and I saw no sorrow in them, only the smile on their faces as they watched me burn.
This fire burns in my school every day, and no one tries to stop it. We're all too afraid of being bitten by the flames of their wrath. We sit by and watch as the world burns, just so we can try to stay away from the blaze. Now it's time to stand up, and not just sit idly by. It's time to let our ideas run free in the world and not be scared of the ridicule of being different.
I ask you to stand up and shout your cry now, the cry you've held in all your life, but never let out because you were too afraid. Wear this ribbon on your sites around the world to help put out the blaze...
(Head to http://innerspace.hypermart.net/youth cry.html to get the ribbon)
funny, i'm looking at my newer pink floyd albums, and the band still seems to be called "pink floyd" even though roger waters is not in the band.
A year spent in artificial intelligence is enough to make one believe in God.
HUH? I really doubt that Bill Clinton sees that much wrong with the United States -- considering he is your typically corrupt politician -- involved in shady business and campaign deals, not to mention his womanizing, sexual harassment, and casual disregard for any kind of integrity left in the office of the leader of the free world. And let's just forget about his mindless abdication of military decisions to the war-mongering Pentagon, causing hundreds of people to be bombed and murdered during his term...
Do I even need to begin on Bill Gates, the world's richest man whose organization has more power than many countries? Or Newt Gingrich, the fascist champion of the Republican Party, brave enough to take on single mothers, minorities, gays and anyone else against the Amerikkkan Way?
Yeah, they're just like the rest of us.
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The commonality you are describing does not happen to people across the board, and amongst people interested in making a change, people like that are called "sell-outs."
Your father did not "become normal" -- he was slowly worn down by the demands society places on people to conform. It was time to suck it up and get a comfortable job, raise a nuclear family, and leave the messy world of radical politics.
The problem is that for the true outcasts in society, simply walking away from the problem is not an option. How many Black Panthers do you think up and decided to quit their revolution and join the corporate world, with a nice job? How many of the outcasts even came close to seeing the inside of a college in the 60's?
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Get ahead - we're smarter, more capable, more creative, and more understanding than the majority. Get to the top, and then do things your way.
You need to read your history and learn why this is a fatal mistake. This is exactly the rationale for nearly every hippie sell-out that ever existed.
The danger of this plan is that the problem is not necessarily who serves as the de facto dictators for the rest of society -- the problem is the power imbalance that allows dictators to exist at all! Becoming a boss yourself does not solve anything besides benefiting yourself. You may think you are an open-minded, enlightened boss -- but that's what every damn boss thinks. It is that mentality that spawns corporate "team spirit training" or "spiritual renewal classes" -- in the end, though, the corporation exists to make money, so if you infringe on that in the slightest with your creativity, desire for freedom, skin color, gender or whatever -- you are gone.
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My point is both Bills are different from the norm, and yes they do run things. Pop-stars RUN A HELL OF A LOT why do you think Marilyn Manson sells-out crowds? Why do kids immitate him? Control the kids--control the future.
And what you don't get is that no matter how quirky you think Marilyn Manson or Bill Gates are, the function they serve in society is the same old shit: corrupt, controlling, superficial power mongers. Marilyn Manson is the KISS of our generation, selling records to kids by scaring their parents. That kind of empty rebelliousness is not what I'm talking about.
What I mean is that as long as everything that matters in society -- education, food distribution, what we do with our daily lives -- is controlled by people who lead a privileged, elite life, everyone else will be treated as (wage-)slaves.
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So what are we to do about all of the problems we're discussing here? The first thing to realize is that there are a lot of folks who have come to see things as fucked up already -- and who are moving to work at doing something about it.
/. message board, do something and help out a movement that has already spontaneously started to overthrow capitalist hierarchy:
No matter how much some of us would like to admit it, free software is a process that is revolutionary compared to the capitalist mode of production and distribution. But the "open source" process outlined in ESR's Cathedral essay applies to more than just how software is made. Anarchists, anti-authoritarians, punks, Chiapas rebels, Spanish rebels -- long before ESR, they've all realized that decentralized, co-operative, not-for-profit, mutual aid is a more equal and better process methodology than the closed, proprietary, competitive capitalist process. For everything -- food, music, books, etc.
So instead of throwing some messages on the
http://www.ainfos.ca
http://burn.ucsd.edu
http://profaneexistence.com
http://www.honeylocust.com/positive/
http://blackflag.net/chumba/not_corp.htm
http://www.server1.tech-host.com/anok/
http://www.iww.org
If all of us, whatever our individuality, challenged our own roles, we could have control over what we produce, how it is produced, and also how the product will be of use to other people. We would, therefore, threaten the existence of capital, wage-slavery and the commodity. - Karma Sutra
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open source everything
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open source everything
Ah, right -- usually an intelligent statement would include something substantial, instead of a hollow jab that basically says my opinion isn't trendy enough for you.
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open source everything
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open source everything
Always, huh? I had a pretty good time in high school. (A better time in college, but that is beside the point). That is flawed thought #1.
... maybe you are one of the jackasses that everyone on these message boards is referring to ...
Here's a thought
Mandatory? Drop out and get your GED if your so smart. Flaw #2 for those counting at home.
Anyone who has dropped out to get a GED instead will tell you what you lose by not being at a regular school: the lack of contacts, the lack of references, the lack of the little "inside" things that help you get into a good college. A GED basically is a worthless license you pay to get in order to qualify for the most substandard jobs. Great alternative you've presented.
So basically they become productive members of society... I'm with you so far...
Now you're starting to catch on -- productive members of an oppressive society are the tools of oppression. See? I think you'll eventually get it.
Anyway, if you don't like it, opt of out the system, move somewhere else. Enjoy your workers paradise.
Good point -- although the old "move to russia" argument went out of style quite some time ago. That should be the answer for any progressive movement... the U.S. should take in all foreign resistance movements, so when people in China are like, "you think its so great move to america" -- and they could.
Oh please....anyway, I've got to snip some of this, its just not even worth responding to.
Another good argument. Do you deny that the majority of the world's wealth and power is centralized in a very small (5-10%) of the population?
Oh and the thought that you want some plain old internet anarchary on a system that was developed by the miliatary, run by large telcoms, and is accessed by computers that are built by large corporations is very ironic in that Alanis Morisette sort of way.
Not only is it ironic, it is pretty cool if you think about it. The US invested all this money to create a technological infrastructure with Cold War motivations -- only for the world to co-opt it and use it for organizing and communication, etc. Why is cryptography illegal again?
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open source everything
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open source everything
I don't know if you'v had a job or just work in the wrong places. But I've found I get rewarded more/better because I am individualistic. Sure they would look at me funny if I came in with green hair tomorrow, but my bosses have recongized I think differently then most of the drones. I voice my opinions.
Of course, to a degree a job will reward someone who speaks up and contributes to "the team" more than someone who sits and contributes nothing. But you can count on there being some well-defined limits to what you say. Why don't you mention starting a union? Why don't you mention fairer distribution of profits within the company? Anything that would infringe upon the company's control or profitability is where your input becomes meaningless to them. Count on it.
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open source everything
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open source everything
'm originally from Panama (Central America, kids), and came during the Noriega fiasco to finish high school (10-12th), so I was in high school not too long ago and I know a little about "police states" (or military juntas)
Who the hell do you think was behind the military junta in Panama? Noriega and George Bush went way back, up until we illegal invaded Panama in 89 to clean up our little mess. The US prefers to establish police states in countries that are far from our borders -- such behavior doesn't go on here, but we sure benefit from it.
The police state here is a little more subtle. The US has the highest incarceration rate of any industrial country. There are millions in prison and millions more who are legally bound to the criminal justice system. The entire system is racist and classist.
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open source everything
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The mandatory hell referred to as high school will always be one of the most detrimental experiences an individual can go through until some fundamental changes take place.
What we need to understand is that the jocks, preps, and wacko administration kiss-asses do not go away once high school is over. They become the new generation of teachers, cops, judges, businessmen, etc. They do well in life because they already have the advantage of being well-to-do, accepted by the rest of the mundane society, and "on the right track." In case anyone hasn't figured it out, high school is a training ground for the workforce. All the necessary skills of obedience, blind acceptance, kissing butt, the willingness to sacrifice 66% of your day to mind-numbing and pointless work or sleep --- these are the "job skills" that need to be learned by the innately free-willed human being to fit into our mechanical capitalist hell.
Of course, nothing of this has to do with the fact that our society has been running on an authoritarian structure that places a small group of people as an elite over other groups and, ultimately, all of the "masses."
Black, poor, gay, freak, geek --- your individualism is useless to the machinery of global profit-making.
But there is more to it than that. Your individualism is more importantly dangerous to the button-pushers and their servile middle-men (the managers -- cops, teachers, landlords, corporate scum). They will always do whatever they can to appease you. And they will try to appease you over Colorado. They will become more "open" -- at least on the record. But in the end, when push comes to shove, they are "they" for a reason: they have the power and they will do anything to keep it.
Our generation has the cynicism from watching the extended hippie revolution joke, the anger from being further polarized and born into a violent, oppressive culture, and the numbers to make a difference.
So what are we doing whining about it on this message board? Let's overthrow the music industry with MP3's, overthrow the tech industry with free software, and overthrow the corporation-state's power monopoly through plain old internet anarchy!
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open source everything
Every geek laughs at the 'jocks' for being stupid. The problem is that jocks tend to be bigger than geeks, so if the jock ever gets tired of tossing insults back and forth he can up the ante to physical abuse. Also, geeks have more to lose than jocks if they get into serious trouble at school. McDonald's doesn't care if you got expelled from a school...MIT does.
My point is simply this: jocks have every advantage over nerds in high school, that only makes their 'abuse' all the more frustrating. Your "friend" can say whatever she wants because no one is going to do anything to a girl, but that's the point. If all that went on in high school was name calling, there would be no problem; it has to be accepted that it is simply a part of growing up. But physical abuse like having food thrown at you, getting punched, pushed, or tripped is something that should not be tolerated.
-
It is possible for your mind to be so open that your brain falls out.
I know you would like to sound cool and be flippant about this, but 15 people were gunned down in a high school. That's a pretty big deal. Yes, AMD demoed a gigahertz chip today. But in the broader scheme of things, Littleton is much, much more important. The only good discussion about the "why" is happneing on /., with Katz in the lead. There is evil abroad on the football fields of America, but these cro-magnons continue to walk unmolested. Indeed, they are rewarded. This is one of those rare times when tragedy leads to opportunity. Discussion about the underlying causes should be fermented, especially from the mouths of those who are close to the social circles those two teens revolved in. Geeks own the world, but are powerless.
http://www.seattletimes.com/news/entertainment/htm l98/goth_19990429.html
The more things change- the more human nature remains constant :]
Banning trench coats, blaming the Net,or video games etc....crap.
On Heraldo Live on Wedsnday 8:00PM EST a psychologist stated it best:
Blame society.
To put it bluntly,we live in an in-your-face
society. where violence and war is a way to solving problems. Differences between people is usually settled using violence. Don't believe look below:
Recent:
Further look at what the Serbs are doing to
the Albanians
Look at what the US and NATO are doing to the
Serbs. NATO is using violence to stop violence.
The bleet goes on and on...
Check your history book for more data.
As to more gun violence in the US, this is due
to the right to bear arms. But you Yanks have taken it a bit too far...
Why do you need military issue weapons ?
These weapons are for mass destruction.
Who are you going to kill your own troops ?
If it came down to Martial Law, you gun
nuts wouldn't stand a chance. You have the
right to protect yourself, so get a shotgun
or a handgun.
As far as I'm concerned Military issue weapons
should be banned. Anybody caught with them,other
than soldiers -sent to slam for 10 years. No
probation.
But I am getting off main rant. Society has
to change then violence in schools will dis-
appear.
Larry
America is still far more tolerant of teen angst than any place in the world.
This is just sensationalism at this point, which appears to be Katz's specialty.
Yes, it's very tragic that people are dead and that sorry geeks with ineffective legal counsel are being oppressed by guidance counselors, but what the hell is Jon Katz purpose in bringing this to light?
Is he attempting to enoble the geek condition, OR, has he finally found a subject where he will not be the subject of enormous ridicule and scorn?
How noble are Mr. Katz's motivations in this matter? Is he the shining knight of the geek cause or a self-seeking opportunist whose boat has FINALLY come in?
Does he really care?
I doubt it.
-- DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL YOU BASTARDS! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL! YOU BLEW IT UP!
"To all Decent Americans,
The students, and their associates, that were involved in the shootings in Littleton, Colorado were members of an anti-culture clique... you know the type: Disillusioned, disaffected, jaded, neo-gothic types, that relish the role of being the "outsiders". By their own admission, they were influenced by the death-rock of Marilyn Manson and the violence and hype of Hollywood.
Our community (Littleton) is asking the whole country not to allow their children, or their families access to this kind of music and boycott all television and radio stations that glamorize death and violence. We are also asking all not to patronize video, retail, businesses, magazines, and all other forms of media that peddle this poison. If the words of peace are falling on deaf ears, then we would like Hollywood to listen to our pocketbooks. It is time for the media to take responsibility for their actions and stop hiding behind the First Amendment.
Mark Kinchen"
If people were more accepting of "goths", the goths wouldn't feel driven to act out their ostracism by adopting outlandish clothing or behaviours.
--
Clear, Dark Skies
my .02
reporter: "Mr. Gandhi, what do you think of Western Civilization?"
Gandhi: "I think it would be a good idea."
ggregg
Im 18, male trench coat, quake playing, gun loving, internet using, webpage making fool who cant spell, sorry.
/.!
ok now here i go! my first post on
Im soo happy that my hard work, and study have gotten me out of high school early. I couldent stand it, i wore a trench coat, i was constantly called dity, and was told to "Take a shower". People asked me where my shot gun was, i would tell them, i left it at home. In New York where i live, the wiggers are the majority party. The afluent white italians who strive to be covered in Fubu and Tommy clothing, they would torment my friends, and anyone who did not fit into there molds. They constantly started fights with us for doing things like playing frisbe, and even for splahing in puddles in the rain. Its been nearly 6th months since i have been to school, word from my friend is that now they are serching any "suspicious" looking kids, taking away trenchcoats, and suspending kids for there feelings on the incident. I would not stand for this modern day witch hunt if i were still a student. I asked them if they planed to do anything, some started petitions, but documents on torn paper and crayon have little effect. Now im going to return to the school, not to visit, but to fight the opressive system that we are forced into. I wasnt tormented much (becaue 6' 180lbs, and i look like i can handle most fights) but the smaller, and weaker have sustained enough.
As geeks united we should all take a stand against the school system in america, if it wasnt for some self control, and my family i could have been a school shooter. Its time to stick it to "The MAN" and make a change. How many more geeks have to go insane, or suicidal before we notice the problem is not our music and games, but our schools, and social system.
Tolerance is the best thing we can learn. With it we can all enjoy what we belive in, and other can enjoy what they belive in. But for now, im just going to wait for the day i drive through Taco Bell and see the best Football player form high school pass me my grande meal and realize, i was the kid he taunted in school, as a burn away in my wicked sports car.
Gimme some of that sweet, sweet crack.
Im 18, male trench coat, quake playing, gun loving, internet using, webpage making fool who cant spell, sorry.
/.!
ok now here i go! my firsat post on
Im soo happy that my hard work, and study have gotten me out of high school early. I couldent stand it, i wore a trench coat, i was constantly called dity, and was told to "Take a shower". People asked me where my shot gun was, i would tell them, i left it at home. In New York where i live, the wiggers are the majority party. The afluent white italians who strive to be covered in Fubu and Tommy clothing, they would torment my friends, and anyone who did not fit into there molds. They constantly started fights with us for doing things like playing frisbe, and even for splahing in puddles in the rain. Its been nearly 6th months since i have been to school, word from my friend is that now they are serching any "suspicious" looking kids, taking away trenchcoats, and suspending kids for there feelings on the incident. I would not stand for this modern day witch hunt if i were still a student. I asked them if they planed to do anything, some started petitions, but documents on torn paper and crayon have little effect. Now im going to return to the school, not to visit, but to fight the opressive system that we are forced into. I wasnt tormented much (becaue 6' 180lbs, and i look like i can handle most fights) but the smaller, and weaker have sustained enough.
As geeks united we should all take a stand against the school system in america, if it wasnt for some self control, and my family i could have been a school shooter. Its time to stick it to "The MAN" and make a change. How many more geeks have to go insane, or suicidal before we notice the problem is not our music and games, but our schools, and social system.
Tolerance is the best thing we can learn. With it we can all enjoy what we belive in, and other can enjoy what they belive in. But for now, im just going to wait for the day i drive through Taco Bell and see the best Football player form high school pass me my grande meal and realize, i was the kid he taunted in school, as a burn away in my wicked sports car.
Gimme some of that sweet, sweet crack.
I'm off topic again, but "On the turning away" isn't really pink floyd, since it is from the post Waters period...
Unpleasant Reality...
For the most part I agree with the sentiment expressed here and Jon Katz is addressing a important issue. However, at the same time he has associated the alienation of youth in the American educational system with the acts of two mentally imbalanced individuals. This association is not one that is beneficial for it only heightens the fears of school admins who are already acting with callus ignorance. In addition several other point need to be addressed.
1:) There is a blatant defense of individualism here that I agree with in principle. A collection of mindless office workers is not what our school system should produce. BUT, one key benefit of school is to force different groups of people to interact. It is absolutely critical to develop the interpersonal skill necessary to function in our society. If a person cannot interact with those that are not in their own group it will limit them later in life. The school should prevent abuse and promote acceptance but should also force people to interact. This applies to all social groups, both the athletes and the various subcultures. The internet is a wonderful resource and provides radical new ways of interacting with others but direct human contact still is what is required.
2:) The idea of Jon Katz to provide these posts to major media has potentially negative consequences. What would say the odds are that the spin they put on this one involves a mixing of well thought out posts with ones they grabbed that more or less say "yeah... I understand them... I want to kill people to..." This reflects to the original concern that this entire event will only cause more abuse.
3:) These two people were not mentally balanced. Had they been popular jocks they would have most likely caused problems for the school though perhaps in not such a drastic way.
Anthion Thrandocles, Prophet of the Oil
that you are not a neuroscientist. Well, fear not, I am! And I've got to say that reading the statement "their feelings had nothing to do with it" is really off the mark. Their emotional state could well have impacted the efficacy of the drug/drugs they were on. Liekwise the drugs could have impacted their emotional state. Reccurrent causality...all the more reason to be careful how you treat people who may be or are mentally ill.
Think Different
I've been dealing with [that type of] difficulties at school, with minimal family support for about 6 years. I'm 15 Now. Basicly my family has gone through every major difficulty possible without anyone dying. (Father is bipolar, Mother had breast cancer, they divorced, mother married 'evil' stepfather, etc). The only support I've had has been from my friends (Major Incompatibilities there . . . but I've already outlined enough of my problems =P).
I've never shot anyone, or even realy attacked anyone.
All I'm realy trying to say is that even without support from family or realy anyone else I could see in RL, I was STILL capible of not reacting violently to a difficult school situation.
-- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
If there were required classes in parenting that would cause problems of its own. Such classes would probably end up trying to get parenting styles to conform to the local 'norm'.
This, in some places, would mean that they would try to get parents to force their children to follow so called "Healthy Lifestyles" (20 Minutes of excersize 3x a week, Required Participaiton in school sports or debate/chess team, Be awake with the sun, etc).
In other places in the US, this could mean such things as "If your kid don't go to church, you're a bad parent".
I know that many people would protest at the way I've been brought up . . . but I think that if it had been different, I wouldn't have the freedom of thought and time that I have now.
-- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
I'll tell you something - when I was in high school, I had to be the one of the biggest geeks there.
I had my moments before in junior high and grade school - getting pantsed, thrown in the trash dumpster, spit on, etc - though one time in grade school I got back at a bully who was tormenting me:
My friend Jesus (hey-soose), my mexican compadre, big as shit, held this kid down while I beat the kid with a big trucker belt buckle behind a school building - never got caught, and didn't have a problem from that asshole ever again.
However, in high school I was "the big geek" - wearing Dockers, T-shirts with funny slogans/look, big backpack (carried on both shoulders!), glasses, braces, pimples - everything. I tried to excel as best I could in all of my classes - maintained around a 3.8-4.0 GPA without serious studying. I also tried to fit in as best I could in PE - when we did weight lifting, while I wasn't good at bench pressing (had trouble with the BAR!), I was able to squat around 450 lbs - earning a bit of respect from the jocks. One other thing I did was to be really nice to everyone - so if I had to fuck somebody up, in a covert fashion, no one would believe it was me. CIP:
One day at PE this guy came up to me and punched me in the shoulder for no reason - after hearing in the locker how he had injured his leg, I of course struck him back there, HARD! He screamed like the prig he was - the teacher came, asked him what had happened - the guy said what I did - and would you believe this (I still don't, but it happenned!): The teacher told the guy "I wish we had more kids like (my name) in this class." - and walked off. By then I was ROTFL.
These are the only two times I remember being particularly vengeful - there were days I was sent to the office for various fights, etc. There were many times I came home upset. Most of the time, I came home pretty blah. But I survived it. It chills me to think about the knee-jerk reactions people have had for what happened. I keep in touch with the one good friend I had in school (everyone thought we were gay - we were just great friends) - and most of the people we hung around with (an outsider kind of group) all turned out happy, if not successful. The popular kids - those that I know of aren't doing shit - and to be honest, those that I don't know about, I really don't care.
It has almost been ten years since HS. Since then, I have gotten a GF, a great apartment, an excellent job, a truck, more computers and shit than I could imagine, and I have dropped the geeky look (thanks to my GF - BTW, lose the glasses, get contacts if you can - I wish I had done it in HS!), wearing good clothes (most of the time - I still have some geek stuff), and getting some bulk on my bones (though still no muscle - though I could if I wanted).
Even so, the posts here and the tragedy in CO brought back a lot of pain and thought of "the old days". If anything Katz has done, it is make us really think about our lives - thanks, Jon.
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Wow. This line of articles on Slashdot has been simply the best coverage of the issues surrounding this possible. The so-called news agencies continually bombard us with images of what happened and with their mis-informed and wrong-headed ideas of why it happened. Only here have we even begun to examine an explanation for 'why' that even starts to make *sense*.
Nifty.
. . . is a great source of the problem. Ignoring things will not change it. Forgetting about it will not change it. These very issues need to be addressed!
I would hate to be in school as a teenager now. I lived thru years of torment/alienation from ignorant people like you. Take the time to understand the people that are picked on. Those 'jocks' & 'preps' that took the time to get to know me, the 'freak', knew I was someone worth liking. Kids needs to understand that. Befriend those in your class because it is they that have to deal with you. Once they know you, understand you, they may even stand up for you. I had a 'jock' friend that was willing to fight my fights with the 'jock' bully who was picking on me, calling me a fag, threatening me. Take the time . . . it works . . .
This tragedy(s), & the ones gauranteed to follow from more copycats like Taber Canada, touch me deeply because I lived it. I feel that the persecution from the 'jocks'/'preps' is only being justified by the school administration when the schools themselves persecute. What kind of message does it send to a developing mind when the school administration isolates/persecutes/alienates/traumatizes people that so happen to dress the same as Eric or Dylan? There has to be a place for the kids being 'attacked' by the school systems to log their complaints! It has been labeled before, but this WITCH HUNT needs to stop before they pust another kid over the edge!
I have created a place for everyone to discuss these issues. Where to get help, where to take your complaints, what to do, why, when, & who . . . stop by!
LITTLETON TRAGEDY DISCUSSION
£ Ä ¥ G Ö
~=~=~=~=~
I get knocked down, but I get up again;
You're never gonna keep me down
~=~=~=~=~
£ Ä ¥ G Ö
~=~=~=~=~
I get knocked down, but I get up again;
You're never gonna
Amen! Someone else posted email addresses of schools, newspapers, politicians. Make them feel the /. effect!
Zonk down below provided email and websites of god people to contact.
So I sent out a letter.
Here's what I said.
---Begin Letter---
The witchhunt should be for the bullys who persecute and torture kids at our schools.
Our schools have a DUTY to protect the children. Even the ones who aren't socially
accepted. They must NOT allow any child to suffer at the hands of bullys. Our schools
need a Zero Tolerance for Bullying policy. They need to make it clear to all students
that abuse and torment will not be tolerated.
Sincerely,
Tom Wayman
Los Angeles, CA
----
Here's a good article in http://slashdot.org
[insert Katz article here]
--End letter--
We got mentioned in The Economist!u rrent/index_us8244.html
http://www.economist.com/editorial/justforyou/c
Titled "The Outcasts Reply"
In case you're wondering, The Economist is one of the most influential news magazines out there. An article in the Economist will become an editorial in US papers a week later.
Strangely, they haven't mentioned anything about preventing more bullying. I guess I'll send them an email too.
P.S. So far, I have sent email to my senators, my representatives, the president and VP, the NY Times, CNN, USA Today, LA Times, etc. etc. Thanks Zonk for providing the URLs! Thanks everyone else for reminding us to take action!
--Tom
You're right, but you ain't gonna hear from the people who are picked on and who aren't that bright here on /.
/. readers need to take action. Whether it's Black Ribbons or forming Kids Against School Tyranny, or email campaigns, we all need to CONTINUOUSLY make them aware of the problems and make them take action to prevent school tyranny.
If you think about it, there's probably far more outcasts who aren't bright than outcasts who are intelligent. I think that school-yard tyranny is based on what the bullies think they can get away with.
I feel sorry for the kids who are ugly, weak, fat, unpopular AND aren't too bright. Do they feel any less pain than the smart ones? Are they any less deserving of compassion and protection from bullying?
That's why I think the solution shouldn't be group based, it should simply be a Zero Tolerance of Bullying policy. The teachers shouldn't care who you are, or what group you identify with. If you're terrorizing someone, you WILL be punished.
Those administrators may be oblivious or in denial. That's where the
--T
Let's learn how to think about conflict and violence in our culture...
The Orenda Project -- Community Soul on the Right Path http://www.musenet.org/orenda
We've seen an outpouring of experiences, feelings, and commiseration over the past few days, and that's a good thing. This is surfacing in many places, and that's a good thing, too. It's good to talk. It's more effective to take the talk and actually develop it to the point where we can actually do something to make a difference for today's and tomorrow's kids...
...Or, you might not...
I've made a start. Have you?
I wrote a letter that I entitled, "An Open Letter to My Child's School District". It was a three page piece calling attention to the things being posted here, and how it relates to ALL schools EVERYWHERE. I voiced my concerns calmly and with as much logic as I could muster. I appealed to the readers to remove the gloss from their own memories of their school years. I urged that the letter be made available to every member of staff in the District.
I attached Jon's articles, as well as several of the responses they generated. Made a pretty long attachment, I must say!
I hand delivered a copy to each principal in the school district, as well as one to the District Superintendent.
Then, just so the whole thing would be less likely to be met with a "Thank you" and shelved, I delivered a copy to the editor of the local newspaper (the only media outlet here), who expressed an interest in helping keep their feet to the fire.
I'm moving on to our Congresspersons, the Secretarial levels of state and federal government, the Governor, and the President.
In order for this sort of thing to be effective, though, many more have to play the game. It's far more enduring than a flash in the media pan is going to be, even though it takes a bit more effort. However, since there is a lot of hand-wringing going on, with a lot of people saying, "Somebody's got to DO SOMETHING about this!", I would suggest that we be the ones to start doing the doing.
The letters need to be signed and accompanied by the information necessary to contact you. You might wish to offer to sit on a committee that works on policy recommendations.
Since students who say these things are targeted for even greater levels of scrutiny (and even abuse), it would seem advisable that the letters come from concerned parents and other adults. There are also some things that you might like to consider in the process...
While we might be offering a wake-up call, we should also be offering solutions and suggestions. Emphasis needs to be placed on identifying problem areas, defining needs, and devising age-appropriate solutions. This is a pervasive problem that begins in early childhood education and continues on, with ever-increasing cruelty, through entire school careers. Geeks, etc. are not the only ones who are being tormented. Anyone who is classified as "different" by ANY school caste group is going to be abused in some fashion by the members of at least one of the many other caste groups, unless education and intervention are inculcated from the earliest ages possible.
Since education begins at home, community awareness needs to be significantly heightened. There are instinctual elements at work here that are going to take a lot of work to counteract. If there is a pecking order amongst chickens, one of the least intelligent critters available, you can bet your boots that every higher animal is going to have individuals singled out for torment. That's not to say, however, that the most intelligent of the animals can't overcome this.
It's just going to take some work, is all...
This is NOT just an "American thing". It happens EVERYWHERE in the world. You can change the names of the authority levels to meet your own situation. Remember, civilisation began to happen because an individual found a better, easier way to do something important!
There are several things that need to be brought to the attention of officialdom, and I think we can all appreciate that the wheels of authority don't turn in the direction we want them to unless enough of us begin hollering loudly enough in a reasoned way to merit serious consideration. Things to bring to the table in your letters would include:
Littleton didn't happen beacause:
-- of the Internet
-- of violent computer games
-- of violent movies
-- of easy availability of weapons
-- of adopting an "outsider" culture
-- of drugs
-- of a lack of anger control
-- of lack of parental supervision
-- of the general decline of society
While some or all of these may have played contributing roles to a varrying degree, we need to get the nation...and the world..to understand that Littleton, along with similar incidents, happened, and WILL HAPPEN AGAIN, largely because of the severe emotional stress placed on people too young to handle it by the incredibly rigid and cruel caste systems imposed by young people in the school and neighbourhood social systems of the young.
In common with the caste system we see operating even today on the Indian sub-continent, once assigned to a group, you are hard pressed to ever rise above it. In common with what happens in chicken society, those at the bottom of the pecking order become incredibly abused and left out of all opportunity to remain healthy.
Most of those so abused in our education systems make it out alive. However, far too many kill themselves out of despair. Some use alcohol or drugs to ease the pain. A precious few snap in another direction and seek active revenge. A small minority of these actually succeed in killing those who they perceive to be tormenting them. In cases where the targets appear random, chances are that is because the killers perceive that EVERYBODY hates them.
I would like to make certain that the President comes to rise above political gun control rhetoric to understand that his proposals will not help reduce the chances of this happening again, because they won't. That won't happen unless enough people step forward with calm, reasoned words that counter the present knee-jerk reactions we are seeing all around us.
I want every Congressperson and Senator to understand that there are problems that need to be addressed, and that it's going to take some resources to bring about change for our children.
I would like people to make enough well-reasoned fuss that we see Congressional Hearings on the issue of caste system abuse in American schools (along with schools in all nations). I would like to see students of all ages and from all school and neighbourhood castes to be among those testifying. I would like to see adult survivors of this abuse testifying, and I would like to see our educators and developmental and emotional health experts testifying, too.
It won't happen without a lot of serious noise from the crowd...we, The People.
The world needs to hear from those who snapped, telling why they snapped, as well as from those who endured, and why they didn't snap. We need to learn a WHOLE LOT more from those who are going through this now, from sides of both the oppressed and their oppressors.
We can't get there, though, unless enough of us speak up ON PAPER. Phone calls, faxes, and e-mail are not going to be enough to do the trick, although they can all help move things forward. We can talk amongst ourselves until we are blue in the face, and we can talk to talk to all of the reporters we want to, but it won't do any good for our kids until we can get the people in charge of their educations to address the problem in an effective manner.
At the same time, we are ALL going to have to address our responsibilities as adults in the process of raising the next generation of leaders and followers. It doesn't matter whether we have children of our own or not, we all have a part to play in the process. We can either be silent and let things go on as they have before, or we can get up and make a difference. Each of us has the choice.
For those of us who are parents, we have to pick up on our responsibilities to our own children. Some of us have children who are being tormented in school. Some of us have children who are tormentors. Some of us have children who have feet in both camps. We have the responsibility to know where they stand in this, and we have the responsibilty to work with them to help them prevent being part of the problem where that is indicated, and we have the responsibility to advocate for them where that is appropriate.
Nobody is going to be neutral in this one. You are either going to be an advocate for change or an enabler for the status quo. That's a choice that each person is going to make, whether he or she reads this or not.
Norman MacLeod
We've seen an outpouring of experiences, feelings, and commiseration over the past few days, and that's a good thing. This is surfacing in many places, and that's a good thing, too. It's good to talk. It's more effective to take the talk and actually develop it to the point where we can actually do something to make a difference for today's and tomorrow's kids...
...Or, you might not...
I've made a start. Have you?
I wrote a letter that I entitled, "An Open Letter to My Child's School District". It was a three page piece calling attention to the things being posted here, and how it relates to ALL schools EVERYWHERE. I voiced my concerns calmly and with as much logic as I could muster. I appealed to the readers to remove the gloss from their own memories of their school years. I urged that the letter be made available to every member of staff in the District.
I attached Jon's articles, as well as several of the responses they generated. Made a pretty long attachment, I must say!
I hand delivered a copy to each principal in the school district, as well as one to the District Superintendent.
Then, just so the whole thing would be less likely to be met with a "Thank you" and shelved, I delivered a copy to the editor of the local newspaper (the only media outlet here), who expressed an interest in helping keep their feet to the fire.
I'm moving on to our Congresspersons, the Secretarial levels of state and federal government, the Governor, and the President.
In order for this sort of thing to be effective, though, many more have to play the game. It's far more enduring than a flash in the media pan is going to be, even though it takes a bit more effort. However, since there is a lot of hand-wringing going on, with a lot of people saying, "Somebody's got to DO SOMETHING about this!", I would that we be the ones to start doing the doing.
The letters need to be signed and accompanied by the information necessary to contact you. You might wish to offer to sit on a committee that works on policy recommendations.
Since students who say these things are targeted for even greater levels of scrutiny (and even abuse), it would seem advisable that the letters come from concerned parents and other adults. There are also some things that you might like to consider in the process...
While we might be offering a wake-up call, we should also be offering solutions and suggestions. Emphasis needs to be placed on identifying problem areas, defining needs, and devising age-appropriate solutions. This is a pervasive problem that begins in early childhood education and continues on, with ever-increasing cruelty, through entire school careers. Geeks, etc. are not the only ones who are being tormented. Anyone who is classified as "different" by ANY school caste group is going to be abused in some fashion by the members of at least one of the many other caste groups, unless education and intervention are inculcated from the earliest ages possible.
Since education begins at home, community awareness needs to be significantly heightened. There are instinctual elements at work here that are going to take a lot of work to counteract. If there is a pecking order amongst chickens, one of the least intelligent critters available, you can bet your boots that every higher animal is going to have individuals singled out for torment. That's not to say, however, that the most intelligent of the animals can't overcome this.
It's just going to take some work, is all...
This is NOT just an "American thing". It happens EVERYWHERE in the world. You can change the names of the authority levels to meet your own situation. Remember, civilisation began to happen because an individual found a better, easier way to do something important!
There are several things that need to be brought to the attention of officialdom, and I think we can all appreciate that the wheels of authority don't turn in the direction we want them to unless enough of us begin hollering loudly enough in a reasoned way to merit serious consideration. Things to bring to the table in your letters would include:
Littleton didn't happen beacause:
-- of the Internet
-- of violent computer games
-- of violent movies
-- of easy availability of weapons
-- of adopting an "outsider" culture
-- of drugs
-- of a lack of anger control
-- of lack of parental supervision
-- of the general decline of society
While some or all of these may have played contributing roles to a varrying degree, we need to get the nation...and the world..to understand that Littleton, along with similar incidents, happened, and WILL HAPPEN AGAIN, largely because of the severe emotional stress placed on people too young to handle it by the incredibly rigid and cruel caste systems imposed by young people in the sxhool and neighbourhood social systems of the young.
In common with the caste system we see operating even today on the Indian sub-continent, once assigned to a group, you are hard pressed to ever rise above it. In common with what happens in chicken society, those at the bottom of the pecking order become incredibly abused and left out of all opportunity to remain healthy.
Most of those so abused in our education systems make it out alive. However, far too many kill themselves out of despair. Some use alcohol or drugs to ease the pain. A precious few snap in another direction and seek active revenge. A small minority of these actually succeed in killing those who they perceive to be tormenting them. In cases where the targets appear random, chances are that is because the killers perceive that EVERYBODY hates them.
I would like to make certain that the President comes to rise above political gun control rhetoric to understand that his proposals will not help reduce the chances of this happening again, because they won't. That won't happen unless enough people step forward with calm, reasoned words that counter the present knee-jerk reations we are seein all around us.
I want every Congressperson and Senator to understand that there are problems that need to be addressed, and that it's going to take some resources to bring about change for our children.
I would like people to make enough well-reasoned fuss that we see Congressional Hearings on the issue of caste system abuse in American schools (along with schools in all nations). I would like to see students of all ages and from all school and neighbourhood castes to be among those testifying. I would like to see adult survivors of this abuse testifying, and I would like to see our educators and developmental and emotional health experts testifying, too.
It won't happen without a lot of serious noise from the crowd.
The world needs to hear from those who snapped, telling why they snapped, as well as from those who endured, and why they didn't snap. We need to learn a WHOLE LOT more from those who are going through this now, from sides of both the oppressed and their oppressors.
We can't get there, though, unless enough of us speak up ON PAPER. We can talk amongst ourselves until we are blue in the face, and we can talk to talk to all of the reporters we want to, but it won't do any good for our kids until we can get the people in charge of their educations to address the problem in an effective manner.
At the same time, we are ALL going to have to address our responsibilities as adults in the process of raising the next generation of leaders and followers. It doesn't matter whether we have children of our own or not, we all have a part to play in the process. We can either be silent and let things go on as they have before, or we can get up and make a difference. Each of us has the choice.
For those of us who are parents, we have to pick up on our responsibilities to our own children. Some of us have children who are being tormented in school. Some of us have children who are tormentors. Some of us have children who have feet in both camps. We have the responsibility to know where they stand in this, and we have the responsibilty to work with them to help them prevent being part of the problem where that is indicated, and we have the responsibility to advocate for them where that is appropriate.
Nobody is going to be neutral in this one. You are either going to be an advocate for change or an enabler for the status quo. That's a choice that each person is going to make, whether he or she reads this or not.
Norman MacLeod
I guess I wouldn't consider myself bright enough to qualify as a nerd, but I've certainly my own memories as an outsider in a public HS in the D.C. 'burbs. I was fortunate not to be the victim of too much abuse, but my sister, 4 years my junior at the same school, wasn't as lucky and came very close to self-destruction. All she wanted was to be left alone to try and chart her own course, but giving her that kind of privacy seemed beyond some of her peers. All of this has brought so many thoughts to the surface, but let me put out some possibly interesting reading to spur thinking about developing alternatives.
Virtually DeSchooling Society: Authentic Collaborative Learning Via The Internet; an abstract by 2 members of a university computer science department @ http://www.webcom.com/journal/eales.html
Camille Paglia's comments in the 04/28/99 issue of the e-zine "Salon" @ http://www.salon.com (do a past articles lookup from there; the URL's too long to trust to my typing)
Sadly out of print, but not too hard to find, Paul Goodman's, Compulsory Mis-Education and The Community of Scholars.
Beyond that, we have to raise the issue about what can be done, as a start, now.
* Don't give up; complain, request the issuance of a peace bond and/or file charges as necessary.
* Get others involved; parents need to support their children and children need to ask for that help. If your parents aren't open to the idea, look for an adult mentor (sorry, but so few take minors seriously) that is willing to try and help.
* Home (or small group of like-minded parents) schooling. Long disparaged by some professional bureaucrats as an example of the bunker mentality of the religious right, this educational option has a long history and strong base of available materials and support groups. Run a string search and go from there.
* Consider supporting the voucher system for funding public education; nothing makes some school staffers quite as nervous as empowering the scholastic consumer with the ability to vote for schooling choices with dollars.
Anyway, just a few thoughts.
We have met the enemy and he is us - Pogo (Walt Kelly)
Well, I may not come across as being the perfect person to be doing this, but, as an 18 year old high shool student, I have to get a few things off my chest. After this whole thing out in Colorado, I noticed quite a bit of what's known as scapegoating going on everywhere. I can't stand it anymore. All I've been hearing for the past week and a half is 'Violent games this...' and 'Lyrics cause kids to do that...'. Hey, look, I'm one of those people that, a year ago, would have gotten the hell beaten out of themself for even setting foot in school after the incident took place. I wore a long black trenchcoat, black makeup, fishnets on my arms, all black clothing...I took my fair share of harassment for it. Someone even went so far as to say they wanted to see what would happen if they set my coat on fire with me in it, since they thought I was a witch. Nothing was done about it at all, even though I did go to someone about the comment.
Now, I'm a high school senior. Not much has changed for me at all. I still get weird looks, even though I stopped wearing all of the stuff I use to, and went from the 'Goth' subculture to being a 'skater'. People still get labeled and harassed no matter what they do. Hell, I still go in school doing weird stuff, like wearing a set of fangs. Yes, I do happen to be an avid fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. And yes, people, there are kids, and lots of them, like Cordelia and her little group in high schools. Ther are jocks like the ones on that show, too, who think it's funny to belittle others for no reason but to make themselves feel bigger than they are. But, they never seem to stop and think about what thy say, and how damaging it can really be. Not that I'm tossing all the blame for this directly on to them, because I'm not. The kids that did this had some serious problems for a very long time, from what I can figure. Now, people may not have noticed it, but these things, amazingly, can be hidden. But that isn't the point of this rant of mine, as that's exactly what it is. A rant...An outpouring of my personaly frustration over this whole scapegoating thing.
When is it going to end? How far will it be taken? I have friends that are into roleplay, online stuff, playing games like Doom and Quake, wearing all black clothing, doing things like researching stuff on vampires...I happen to do alot of the above. I do online roleplay. I play Vampire the Dark Ages. I do play Doom, though I have yet to try Quake. I still have my Marilyn Manson CDs, as well as many others that could be construed as having 'violent lyrics'. Some people consider me to be a very smart person. I do still own my trenchcoats, though I rarely wear them unless it's pouring outside, and I am still considered to be 'unusual' and a 'non-conformist, social outcast' in many respects. It's called being an individual, and damnit, if I'm going to be put down for it, I'd really love to know why. Is it really going to stop things like this if we take all these things away from people? I, in my very honest and humble opinion, don't think it will. Neither does my mother, who actually stands behind my opinion of this whole thing. People will still do these types of things regardless of whether people start wearing uniforms to school, are stripped of their individuality, and are made to conform. It isn't the lack of conforming the did this. It was two messed up kis that had been planning it for a year. I know I'm repeating myself, but honestly...It was them, and not a song, not a video game, not a movie..None of that...That killed those people. Hopefully, I've made my point clear. And thanks for your time reading this, if you have. I appreciate it.
~Angel~
Like most of the others posting here, I too understood what had driven the Littleton killers to utter despair, because I experienced it myself, a long time ago.
Today I'm a successful, confident, "Rennaisance Guy"... I've got my own consulting company, and am an extremly well paid consultant in a position of extremely high trust writing software for the securities industry. I've worked at IBM, and at an internet startup... I've got a great loft in downtown Manhattan and am the envy of all of my friends here. And that's just work -- I travelled to China and Tibet last year, and visited Mt. Everest. The year before that I went on a 20 day trek in the Nepal Himalaya. I'm always dating beautiful women, and would have settled down a long time ago if I wasn't so damn picky. And yet, I still play computer games constantly, am getting back into Roleplaying Games, and read science fiction... I'm still a geek at heart, at age 33. I just mix in being a geek with a lot of other things, now.
But 15-20 years ago my life was very different. I remember every day, trying to figure out a way home where the jocks who loved to pick on me wouldn't be waiting to beat me up. I remember being lured over to the house of a "friend" so 3 guys could punch me, knock me down, and kick me while I was on the ground. My Dad got angry that time and called the police, because that wasn't a "fair" fight -- but when a single guy, who might be 40 pounds heavier than me (I was a skinny asthmatic then) assaulted me on the way home, that was just "two boys fighting". When I was ostracised by people for being a "skinny wimp", it was, according to my family and teachers, who needed "to learn how to get along better with others".
I remember a solid year when I didn't have a single friend. I think that was the 6th grade. Later, I met a few friends, other highly intelligent people, mostly outcasts. Sometimes someone new would come to school and we would become friends, but then the "mainstream" would make them choose between being my friend and being cool, and they would dump me like a hot potato.
This was all before Dungeons and Dragons, before the Internet, before personal computers, before Goth. Back then, the geek hobbies were wargames and science fiction. These were solitary pursuits, for the most part. When D&D came, it basically changed my life. I developed an entire peer group of people interested in the game... I had a "group" of my own... we were still outcasts,
but there were enough of us to keep each other from being so damn lonely anymore. One of my geek friends belonged to a high adventure explorer post. I joined, and learned how to rock climb, whitewater canoe, and hike with a pack. Women like to do these things, a lot more than they like killing Orcs. And thus, in my junior year in high school, I got my first date. My life continually got better from there, and it is still improving. At my 10 year high school reunion, guys who had beaten me up in school (and to their credit, were deeply sorry for this) had all gotten fat, and were pathetically trying to flirt with my girlfriend, who was far more beautiful than their wives. But I can remember that fork in the road, when my life turned for the better, and sometimes wonder, if I had not been able to take that route, what would have happened to me. Littleton? I doubt it. But I'd probably be bitter and unhappy somewhere, writing a very different note than this to slashdot.org
We have got to change things. We need an outreach program where people like me, geeks who have made it, can mentor to geeks who are still stuck in the HellMouth and help them. We need to get parents to file criminal Assault charges when geeks are threatened or abused, and we need to get DAs who refuse to prosecute in defense of geeks, or administrators who protect people who abuse geeks, hounded out of office. We need a Geek Lobby. This shouldn't be impossible... we're richer, smarter, and more motivated than they are. John Katz, I think that you should lead this movement. Tell me how I can help, and I will do so.
PS: you can check out my Tibet pictures at http://www.best.com/~kenm .
Ken McKinney
kenm@best.com
Yeah, it sucks being persecuted.
But what I've seen over the past few days is a huge wave of angst and self pity. And I'm not sure if that's going to achieve anything worthwhile now that people are aware of the problem.
Don't get me wrong. Counselling and suspension for wearing something "different" to school tells me that there are some weird ideas out there. There is definitely something wrong. But simply lamenting your fate will not get you anywhere.
What are people going to do? I'm trying to define what was different between my high school and college (junior & senior high) years. High school sucked, but college was great, even though the types of people were much and the same. The biggest differences I can pinpoint are that in college:
- The staff were happy to let us run amok since we could be trusted to use this privilage constructively (trust was earnt, i.e. when they realised we all had root logins for the library's Xenix system and we hadn't trashed it)
- While animosity did exist between groups, it was not "hostile", this seems to not have been the case in many of my friends schools in the same state even. I suppose that's a culture of tolerance thing.
- Find pockets of support in staff and give them reasons why they should support you. I have a report card for roleplaying because we supported the English with writing and whatnot. Because we were prepared to design it ourselves, and justify the need, we did our own projectile experiment for physics.
I suppose, build benign power bases! Parents, take an active interest in the culture that your child's school is promoting.
Any other ideas???
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
I would just like to comment on the amusing way in which a good amount of posters are seeing this issue as an "us VS. them" thing. Last I checked at my college (Ohio State University) the geeks of the University ( I guess I am referring to the computer geeks and people I heve met in my Majors, Engineering and Japanese) can be every bit as eletist and exclusive as I remember the Jocks being in high school.
I have learned that it is not only the traits that were displayed by the preps etc.. in my high school that I despised, but the fact that they were not able to express themselves freely within their social structure. The same seems to apply in my University; I have found that few of my friends come from within my discipline.
A lot of the views that have been expressed here over the last few days have REALLY hit home with me, and at worst the coverage here has been a LOT more on base than the national media coverage. I dodn't need to think for more than a minute before realizing that this was going to trigger massive witch hunting in the schools of America. I am glad that I made it out and I am glad that I am no longer in since I fit a little too well into the descriptions of "suspect beharioral patterns"
BUT
Please, everyone, don't think that there is some kind of a clean duality here. It is not "us VS. them" since there is no clear us or them...
Don't mean to be a party pooper since I think that this is a great forum (I have referred a lot of non-slashdot readers to this and gotten a lot of thanks), just remember to think before you generalize things.
thanks for reading...
(remove the nospam of course)
+++ ATH0 +++
I have been watching the events since the Littleton incident, I have seen the US 60 Minutes show - and am about to see it again on the Australian equivalent ... I have read all the slashdot articles, and have even spoken to some friends whoe were involved in the incident ... I have sat back and watched a country's reaction and wondered ... is there *any* sense left in the "greatest country on earth"
The thing that scares me? Is that the same ppl who are currently creating these geek profiles, are the same ppl who are creating the rules, creating the laws and ... in all honest effect ... hold the key to the big red button ...
Now, I'm sure that the average American Joe Blow is intelligent, has some form of common sense, and is generally a decent human being ... but then again with the US media turning the bone onto the geeks and nerds and the generally excluded, twisting stories and facts to fit into their FUD campaigns, I don't believe that they will have full use of their facilities during the bombardment.
I would like to know, if these two kids had been observed to be addicted to coca-cola, McD's, Melrose Place and loved reading Patriot magazine - would schools ban these as well? No? Why not? Simple, only a whacko would use these items as a source of inspiration to plan out a mass murder and suicide.
In all reality tho, is it not the reality that these two were just plain class-A fscking whackos?!?!?!?! And no matter what their hobbies and the like were, they were not in their right minds?
Oh, don't misunderstand me, I believe that if someone has been pushed to that degree they can snap - I did it at high school - nearly 15 years ago, mid way through the 2nd year I was "ganged" by a bunch of Jocks - I did my best to avoid them, after all, I had put up with it so far ... and I really deplored violence coming from both an abusive household and a racist, violent neibourhood - but they pushed, the poked, they started burning my books and kicking me - and I snapped ... I lost all control and I ended up fighting back punching, kicking and scratching and finally I jumped onto the "leader"
May the karma be reversed before I am re-born as RMS - I broke his arm and his jaw, and punched him with such ferocity and hate and anger that it took three teachers to remove me from him ... but he already was unconcious by this time. I was charged with GBH and suspended from my school. None of the other members of the "gang" were punished in any way
If Australia had the same laxity in gun laws, perhaps I too would have pulled out a gun and shot them ... after all in my mind at the time - it would have been justifiable self-defense.
I DO NOT for a moment condone the behaviour of the two boys at Colorado ... and only the creator knows better than I do that I deplore the actions I commited those many years ago ... but the solution is so simple - change the schooling system, open the eyes of those "in charge" and allow students to have counselling without being sent into further seclusion ... the many geeks, parents, teachers and other /. readers who have posted replies to the string of articles here have all said the same thing - in different ways ... you all have the power to affect change ... as some ppl have said - write to the schools, petition them, strike! Do a massive nation-wide walkout! show them you mean business! show them you will not lie down and take it any longer! However, DO IT PEACEFULLY - DO IT WISELY
In a country where violence is a way of life, in a race where our breed is instinctively violent, we should not blindly attack all "obvious" targets as the cause - if this was a reasonable, sensible method of finding a solution, George Orwell would have been proven right many years ago ... Rock and Roll would never have moved past the 1950's, TV would not be here today, science would not be allowed to practice, darwin would have been burnt at the stake and ... well you get the drift ...
We look from across the globe to a land of such might and power - and all we see is a land being run by a bunch of scared, insecure, fanatical children hidden behind a veil of misconceptions, contradictions and dis-information ... if the same effort and focus was put into the anti-abortion killers as is being placed into "geek profiling" and the harrasment that some of these poor children are experiencing, religion would be banned ... all fanatical christians would be offered the counselling and fired from their jobs if they did not attend - and if they showed any sign of free-thought, rebellion or common-sense - they'd be deported!
Sounds insane does it not? But it is no more insane than what is going on now ...
I need you all to start helping resolve this ... why? becouse it does not only affect those living in the USofA - but it will treacle down across the globe ... even our unthinking, spineless goverment will take on the new policies that the US goverment will make up ... and in the end the whole planet becomes prime lamb in the great universal slaughter
I would like to finish up my long rant by expressing to you all the most heartfelt support and believe that many of us across the globe will and are standing behind you, the last strands of sanity that seem to be standing against a tide of pure ignorance-induced insanity
I've been listening in on this discussion and have what I hope might be a constructive suggestion for all those looking to prevent us geeks (and anyone else who is being oppressed by the system somehow) from suffering so much through high school.
Go back into the trenches.
Many programs exist for volunteers who wish to mentor children and many schools would probably be happy to have volunteers who might come to give a presentation or work with an afterschool program or club. Children need to see that being different is not bad. Many of the people who read this were/are different and yet have managed to succeed (however one measures success). Also, many people complain that there is nothing interesting at school. As a volunteer, you might not be able to affect the everyday curriculum, but you can almost surely think of something fun to do after hours at the school.
Society (especially youth) needs to see us. For too long we've been hiding back near the metaphorical server farm, saying "Thank God I got out of that Hellhole alive. I'm never gonna think about those fuckers again!" For many, it will be hard to confront the memories and I'm sure there will be administrators who might try to prevent you from making contact with students once they realize that you think Quake is actually a pretty good way to develop better hand-eye coordination and not the Devil's favorite pastime, but in the end, I think the only way we can get society to change is by actively taking a hand in the formative process.
p.s. If you can't/aren't willing/don't have time to volunteer, I would suggest that you consider donating money (if you don't have time because you're working too much at a great job) or actually becoming a teacher (if you can't volunteer because you have to work or you'll starve.) Many people have posted things to the effect of:
"H.S. sucked, but now I've got a great job/wife/car/etc. so I've finally beaten those bastards in H.S." You may have beaten those ones from when you were there, but the same people are still there. Maybe this time they won't need to be beaten.
And if you can't get a job (or don't want to get back in the computer industry ratrace) for some reason, I'm pretty sure there is a shortage of teachers in many places, especially those places where kids need the most help.
Hope this stirs some thoughts and maybe makes a difference in someone's life.
What the hell makes you think that the average (or even above average) parent is some kind of educator. My wife teaches kids every day. It took her five years to get a degree to do so. You think you know the first thing about teaching a 6 year old to read? Sure we can all read, but can you teach phonics to a child. I am sick of this arrogant attitude that we are all smarter than teachers. They spend countless hours learning teaching methods and kids learn more and are smarter than ever before. My daughter is in kindergarten and reads on a 1st grade 6th month level. I didn't learn to read in kindergarten and I am a well paid computer programmer these days. Just imagine where she will be when she is my age. Could I have taught her to read? Of course not. What a stupid thing to even ponder. I don't know the first thing about teaching her to read. The problem is that no one is willing to admit that a kid might just be stupid these days. That's right... stupid. Some people just aren't smart. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself. There have always been stupid people and there always will be. But the difference is that these days, if a kid isn't making straight A's, its the teacher's fault. If my kid is doing poorly, the whole school just sucks and they ought to fire all of those incompetent teachers. What kind of bull is that? They can't all be brainiacs and the curriculum gets tougher every year. That's life. It makes me sick every time my wife gets a nasty note from a parent. It goes something like this... "Dear parent, your child hasn't brought in his home work for a week and is going to detention for it.... etc. " the return note reads... "Dear Teacher, Johnny just needs some positive re-enforcement to build up his confidence. I feel that you are just too negative and he is responding poorly to your attitude." What a load of horse crap! Now, is the public school system breaking down here, or do we have a bunch of single mother's raising too many kids. I am tired of all of this poor me and my poor kid crap. Let's get real. Home Schooling my foot! What a fiasco!
High Tech Red Necks can be geeks too!
Right, first things first - I agree with most people here about the whole "geeks being picked on" thing. When you're growing up as a teenager you're very vunerable to other peoples negativity, and too much of that can definately mess you up in the head, of that I have no doubt.
But what people here seem to be overlooking is that this wasn't a simple case of "The Geek Strikes Back". These guys were Nazis. They struck on Hitler's birthday. They targetted racial minorities in their massacre for God's sake!
Before all the geeks here (of which I may well be one!) jump on the bandwagon and use this whole episode as a platform for airing their own insecurities, they'd be well to make note that they sound like their siding with Nazis.
Sure, let's examine the whole school culture - I definately think there's room for improvement there - but let's not link it in with the Littleton massacre. They're two quite distinct issues, and you'll only do the geek cause harm by trying to tie the two things together.
As I read this article, and the comments associated with it, a common theme leaped out: I'm Superior. It's natural for a person who has been shunned by popular society and scorned by his peers to respond by building up their own self-worth in their mind. This is natural and healthy, and the only effective response. However, I believe what happened in Littleton is an example of this attitude being carried to the extreme. I know the feeling, I get it myself sometimes, when I rage at the stupidity of my fellow man, when I label them mindless sheep, when I laugh at their fumblings and missteps. We've all done it. How many times have you watched someone try to use a computer for the first time, and felt a whole lot better about yourself as you watch them struggle? The danger lies in truly believing that you are more important than other people, that their lives mean less than your own.
As a member of the military, I see this attitude more often than most. Because of the restrictions that combat poses on people, the military must place a higher standard of ethical and moral conduct than is expected of people in the civilian world. But we receive constant counseling about the dangers of having these standards. They serve to seperate us from the society that we have pledged to serve, and they sometimes make us feel superior. I've heard many a shipmate read the newspaper, then throw it down in disgust and say "These are the people we're defending with our lives?" It's that sort of superior attitude that leads to police states, military coups, and restrictions on freedom. It's the sort of attitude the Nazi's championed, and it was the mindset of those boys in Littleton.
My point is simple: You may believe that you're smarter than everyone you see around you, but that doesn't make you a better person, nor does it make them any less so. Beware the hubris of intelligence, for that way leads to Littleton.
---- El diablo esta en mis pantalones! Mire, mire!
I can really feel for how these young men and
..
.. every .. ask him or her what (s)he .. you will be supprised .. oh well, .. that teacher is one of your 'outcasts' ..(thanks Mr. Thomas for being there
.. ..
.. but thats another story....
women who have expressed their inner anger at
the 'chosen' ones, the ones who are 'promoted'
in our public schools.
I'm 43, and I was no different in the early
70's, yes I was one of the geeks. I hated
Gym, though school events were a joke and
the worse for 'if you dont fit you dont
belong" ? the christian religious clubs.
Basically I was, in their terms not a
'sheep', what was I ? Just a teen who was
more interested in computers, and electronics,
and sciences etc then I was in being
popular. What did those who where suppose to
take a kid like me and help do ? Well when
betten up by the jocks, I was told by the
principal I deserved it and it would make me
more of a man. When I in social studies did
a report on how those that did not blindly
follow the 'rules' should be eliminated, and
used christianity as the model, and refused
to retract, i was expelled for two days.
I was in a class for retarted kids cause I
was bored with school, basically flunked high
school, got my diploma on the grounds I would
not show up at graduation (it was mailed to me)
and I could go on and on.
Yea I and some friends were outcast, today,
I could really see myself in that high school,
and I would not be on of the 'chosen' ones.
The media ? Remember they were Barbie and Ken
in High School, talk about clueless.
The parents ? WAKE THE F*** UP !
Teachers, cslrs, staff ? Go find the one or
two teachers that kids associate with
school has one
thinks
I doubt it
for me)
For the guys (that includes girls) in HS
There are some of us 40 yearolds that have
not forgotten and can relate. Don't give up,
for me "Jail" ended when I left HS
and people took me for who I was not for
looking like Ken.
Oh before I go away, as a 12 y/o kid I had my own 22 rifle, with ammo, and it and the ammo were in
my bedroom, my 'responsibilty'
Sorry just the rant of someone who PAINFULLY
remembers being in HS.
-pete
Not all teachers are competent. Certainly not all of them (or even most of them, really, despite my own experiences) are *in*competent, but some fit the description fairly well. I cite the instance of my sixth-grade teacher who called a conference with my father about my "learning disability". She said I didn't know how to read, that I was pretending. This after I'd been in the gifted program since first grade, checked more than 10 books out of the school library every week until they changed the policy (to only allow 3 books per week), and been permitted to take reading classes a year ahead of my grade level since third grade. Oh, and my first-grade teacher never taught me to read. My father did, well before the age of 6. So yes, he did know "the first thing" about it, and I still read more and faster than most people my age...or twice my age, for that matter.
I've had good teachers, I've had bad ones, I've even had *great* ones. Few of those, but that's the breaks. I understand others have had better and worse experiences than I have. I'm just mentioning my experience to show that parents *can* teach their kids to read -- and they *should*, as far as I'm concerned. 6 years old is too late to start learning. (Oh, and the best teacher I ever had was my father; raw intelligence and patience count for more than a degree does. The best teachers have both of those as well as their degrees.)
When I have children -- I expect to, someday, not soon, but someday -- I intend to do with them what my father (and mother) did with me. I'll use his methods, which were remarkably simple and didn't include "teaching phonics" as such. There is no one right way to teach children to read -- whatever works well is right, and his way worked for me. I hope it works as well with my children.
I was homeschooled for four years, and I wish I had never gone back to public school. Pretty much for the "peer abuse" reasons that keep getting mentioned here.
... remember when Atticus gets in trouble for teaching his little girl to read the "wrong" way? *lol* I taught myself to read when I was two or so ... I can't even remember not knowing how to read.
:)
Just for the record, both of my parents have degrees in education, so my experience might be a bit different. However, one of the things that is IMPORTANT to remember about homeschooling is that it is one more way for parents to stay more in touch with their kids (isn't this one of the things that was being recommended by "experts" when discussing the Littleton case??)
RE: teaching kids to read. Go back and read _To Kill a Mockingbird_
No, homeschooling isn't for every family. But for the fourth-generation geeks that I am likely to end up breeding, it's probably going to be a damn good idea.
"Somebody exploded a letter-bomb today
I read an editorial in my local newspaper that said "We should be concerned about the anguish of non-conformists who feel harassed and humiliated." Naturally, I immediately emailed the author, pointing out that nerds feel harassed and humiliated because they ARE harassed and humiliated.
The columnist replied brightly that her daughter is a high-school senior, a happy, outgoing kid, and she reports that students *don't* harass kids who are different (except for boys who are thought to be gay). So, there it is. It's all in our minds. (Except for you boys who are gay or are thought to be. Oops, sorry, I guess the columnist doesn't think you matter.) Gosh, I thought that other kids made my life a misery when I was in high school, and other kids are making your lives a misery now, but no! They didn't! They aren't! A popular kid assures us that this is true! I'm so happy now!
Naturally, I suggested to the editorial writer that perhaps she was consulting the wrong source.
My son is never going to go through this. We homeschool.
OK, as I am writing this right now, I notices that president Bill Clinton is busy right now convening an emergency summit about teen violence in America. As I am reading this and looking back at recent events in retrospect, I am 1/4 laughing, 1/4 cringing in heartache, I am 1/4 in disbelieif, and 1/4 frightened. We need to examine what was going on in this conference, and recent conferences about teen violence. In a nutshell these summits, conferences, meetings or whatever you wanna call em, they are nothing more then outraged lawmakers critizing controversial figures in music, television, video games, and so on. It is nothing more then scapgoating. Lets take notice the band of KMFDM right now. Yes the KMFDM who had their lyrics posted on one of these Littleton killers webpages. This individual cut and pasted KMFDM's lyrics from the songs Son of a Gun, Megalomaniac, Stray Bullet, and Waste. While these names if these songs might seem a little menacing at first, they are nothing more then a social satire that most people who refuse to recognize. From the begining KMFDM has never been about violence. KMFDM is anti-opression, anti-violence, pro-free speach, pro-expression, pro-peace. KMFDM has struggled for years in reletive obscurity while making awesome music with a social message. That our society needs a change in a better direction. How ironic it is that KMFDM is now being skewerd by the media for promoting ideals opposite of their actual belifes. KMFDM has for long critized the media for scapgoating people and instutions, and now they have fallen victim to the medias wrath. This band has worked for years again trying to promote peace. They have gone to eastern Europe and assisted people in need financially. KMFDM is exactly opposite of what these killers thought they stood for. The irony in this situation is sickening. There is a Lyric in a song by KMFDM called "Light" that goes
In a world of deceit open up your eyes
Aparently in Washington, the city of deceit, people refuse to open up their eyes. They refuse to put accountability upon these Littleton killers. So Washington, the media, citizens, or whatever.....people are scapgoating the wrong aspects of the problem here. The problem is not music or video games, the problem lands squarley on the shoulders of the killers and their parents. Where are the parents in this matter. These kids had a friggen Semi-automatic weapon and pipe-bombs in their houses. These kids were sick and twisted individuals. In addition these parents were totally neglegent in their supervision of their kids. Not noticing a semi-automatic in their possession. Seriously stop scapgoating KMFDM, Quake, and Marylin Manson. The problem is with the killers themselves and their parents. To all the pundits and lawmakers, put the balme where it should be. I will leave you all to a parting shot by KMFDM-
"KMFDM is not a political party. It is an artform"
This is musical expression. When free expression is lost, our nation and our freedom is lost.
E-Mail me at desmond@zerg.com
Please Reply
...Seeing as we all know the midia blames clothing, games and TV, and we all know this is wrong and false, is there ANYONE that has ever played Avara or Quake or Hexen or Doom or HalfLife and imageined that the people you were shooting were prep/jock jerks that bugged you?
Also, do you play the games as a escape from reality and pain, or to release anger or what?
~S~
Intel Inside: The worlds most commonly used warning label.
I wonder if I can find some way of makeing a HTML tag like the IRC '/me' command...
;)
I coupla things about the above post: Its not the kids that killed that needed help, nor the parents. Its the bloody fools that MADE them kill. Might add, thats a cool email address. Granted, I like protoss, but thats just me.
I do not listen to much music; I have a few John Prine CD's and some Britney Spears mp3's, and some mini-disk recordings, but not much. I dont know anything about this band, but I do know that its not the music, the clothes, the color of there skin, there computers, there hair, the games they play, the things they like that made them kill, but rather what people did to them. I left school a while ago, and was hopeing it would change. It didnt. Where I live this may or may not be happening. If it did, I would get alot more bull than I would normaly.
Also, the funny thing (if ANYTHING can be considered funny) is that they are singleing out the 'abnormal' people, but no one has seen that there ARE no normal people. Therefor, everyone is abnormal, and they may as well shoot themselves in the head and spare us the pain.
~S~
Intel Inside: The worlds most commonly used warning label.
Its not just HS, its EVERYWHERE. Even befor L,CO shootings, a year or more ago in GRADESCHOOL the nurses, kids and some teachers treated me like trash just cuz I was smart and thought for myself and was differant (The nurses cuz I had a skin deseise and they wanted to know if it was contaguos and other crap)
~S~
Intel Inside: The worlds most commonly used warning label.
That is probly true. I know I have learned more at home than I have in all my years at school. Some, not many, but some teachers actualy give a flying vittu about there jobs. I hate school, and always will. There is only ONE thing to be gained from school, the willingness to put up with TONS of daily crap, and there is the fact that its a dateing spree...
~S~
Intel Inside: The worlds most commonly used warning label.
...That I'm gonn flame the above msg to hell and back agin. Not because you flamed, but because you are wrong. Dead wrong.
...wow... one word pops up...communnist....wow...
A human has a right to be free, live, have fun. They have a right to go thro life jerk free, but noone EVER cares. Even if some jackass in a high place didnt delcare what John said is a right, it is and should be.
Finally: access to popular culture and to the Internet isn't a privilege. It's a right.
Total and utter nonsense. This type of statement may win fans from the high school crowd, but that doesn't make it true.
No, it is a right. Access to popular culture and to the Internet is both a right to be free and the right to have and hear free speach. To be free means to be free. The USCA is NOT a free place. No bloody where NEAR. Kids are opressed by parents, foolish rules about no cussing/no fighting. Now, I dont mean go start fights, but if a kid stands up for his/her self because someone was teasing them, and end up fighting and whoop the jerks ass, and then they get a detention/suspended/expelled/probation for STANDING UP for themselfs, something is bloodly wrong. The US has always stood up for what they think is right, and now they are opressing what US cizts think is right. Something is waaaaaaay wrong.
No generation has the right to dictate to another what its culture ought to be, or to degrade its choices as stupid and offensive.
This is nonsense! A cultures choices can be stupid and offensive and should be honestly labled as such. It could be said that "gang culture" accepts violence and death as acceptable. This should rightfully be labled as evil. You seem to imply that all cultures are equal. I don't agree. No culture has the "right" to exist.
That is an opinion, and Johns comment was an opinion. Relax. If something is *evil* from your point of veiw, it may not from mine of other peoples. I do not hate Hitler, I know he did many things he shouldnt, but I cant change what he did, and even if I could, I wouldnt. Someone, God or a god HAD to want that to happen. I, for one, respect him. He was a odd person, but that is what ANY human is.
No culture has the "right" to exist.
I am hopeing that was a typo. If not, then what do they have? I have the right to be free, and being a culture is a act of freedom and therefor a right.
You seem to imply that all cultures are equal. I don't agree. No culture has the "right" to exist.
Wow, I am thinking you are acting very *evil* and supperour to everyone. Step DOWN from the high chair. Agin, the above better be a typo. If not, thats damned bad. 'No culture has the right to exist.'
'You seem to imply that all cultures are equal. I don't agree.'
All humans are equal, but not in the same place. Some people are better at some things, and others at others.
Also, as a quick note, death is normal. HUNDEREDS of people die DAILY. Granted, not all are killed, but with the war, alot are. I have learned to accept death as normal. Its as normal as birth and life.
And: freedom. Why does the First Amendment end at the school door, when many kids, especially geeks, have spent much of their lives in the freest part of American culture - the Internet? Online, people can speak about anything: dump on God, talk about sex, flame pundits, express themselves politically and rebelliously. In school, no one can.
The First Amendment doesn't end at the school door. First, you don't understand what the First Amendment means (and you aren't the only one). The First Amendment gives you the freedom to criticize and speak out about the government without fearing to be thrown in jail. It does not give you the freedom to say anything you want.
You miss the point. People cannot say the truth for the most part. Did you read the letters about forced retractions for people that told what they thought about school and L,CO? Thats what he was talking about, not about shouting 'fire' in a thearter. Also, there is the insulting and teasing. It goes on forever. IMO, the L,CO killing was good. It got this in the light, it ended the lives of several mean, callous jerks. Granted, the killing was bad, but needed.
~S~
Intel Inside: The worlds most commonly used warning label.
...That I'm gonn flame the above msg to hell and back agin. Not because you flamed, but because you are wrong. Dead wrong.
...wow... one word pops up...communnist....wow...
A human has a right to be free, live, have fun. They have a right to go thro life jerk free, but noone EVER cares. Even if some jackass in a high place didnt delcare what John said is a right, it is and should be.
Finally: access to popular culture and to the Internet isn't a privilege. It's a right.
Total and utter nonsense. This type of statement may win fans from the high school crowd, but that doesn't make it true.
No, it is a right. Access to popular culture and to the Internet is both a right to be free and the right to have and hear free speach. To be free means to be free. The USCA is NOT a free place. No bloody where NEAR. Kids are opressed by parents, foolish rules about no cussing/no fighting. Now, I dont mean go start fights, but if a kid stands up for his/her self because someone was teasing them, and end up fighting and whoop the jerks ass, and then they get a detention/suspended/expelled/probation for STANDING UP for themselfs, something is bloodly wrong. The US has always stood up for what they think is right, and now they are opressing what US cizts think is right. Something is waaaaaaay wrong.
No generation has the right to dictate to another what its culture ought to be, or to degrade its choices as stupid and offensive.
This is nonsense! A cultures choices can be stupid and offensive and should be honestly labled as such. It could be said that "gang culture" accepts violence and death as acceptable. This should rightfully be labled as evil. You seem to imply that all cultures are equal. I don't agree. No culture has the "right" to exist.
That is an opinion, and Johns comment was an opinion. Relax. If something is *evil* from your point of veiw, it may not from mine of other peoples. I do not hate Hitler, I know he did many things he shouldnt, but I cant change what he did, and even if I could, I wouldnt. Someone, God or a god HAD to want that to happen. I, for one, respect him. He was a odd person, but that is what ANY human is.
No culture has the "right" to exist.
I am hopeing that was a typo. If not, then what do they have? I have the right to be free, and being a culture is a act of freedom and therefor a right.
You seem to imply that all cultures are equal. I don't agree. No culture has the "right" to exist.
Wow, I am thinking you are acting very *evil* and supperour to everyone. Step DOWN from the high chair. Agin, the above better be a typo. If not, thats damned bad. 'No culture has the right to exist.'
'You seem to imply that all cultures are equal. I don't agree.'
All humans are equal, but not in the same place. Some people are better at some things, and others at others.
Also, as a quick note, death is normal. HUNDEREDS of people die DAILY. Granted, not all are killed, but with the war, alot are. I have learned to accept death as normal. Its as normal as birth and life.
And: freedom. Why does the First Amendment end at the school door, when many kids, especially geeks, have spent much of their lives in the freest part of American culture - the Internet? Online, people can speak about anything: dump on God, talk about sex, flame pundits, express themselves politically and rebelliously. In school, no one can.
The First Amendment doesn't end at the school door. First, you don't understand what the First Amendment means (and you aren't the only one). The First Amendment gives you the freedom to criticize and speak out about the government without fearing to be thrown in jail. It does not give you the freedom to say anything you want.
You miss the point. People cannot say the truth for the most part. Did you read the letters about forced retractions for people that told what they thought about school and L,CO? Thats what he was talking about, not about shouting 'fire' in a thearter. Also, there is the insulting and teasing. It goes on forever. IMO, the L,CO killing was good. It got this in the light, it ended the lives of several mean, callous jerks. Granted, the killing was bad, but needed.
~S~
Intel Inside: The worlds most commonly used warning label.
My favoret book (non-fict) is Summerhill by A. S. Neil. Its rather interesting, and if you read it thro, will be amazed. One of the greatest truths is 'Hate is demeneted love.', also from that book.
~S~
Intel Inside: The worlds most commonly used warning label.
Im not 12, im 11.
~S~
Intel Inside: The worlds most commonly used warning label.
Dutch TV would like to talk to school students in NY area about reasons behind school shootings. Students who wrote Jon Katz about it, who want to tell what's it like to be a non-conformist kid and be treated in an awful way because of that. Who want to explain cliques, importance of sports, money, background.
We come to where you are. Is for background story on the school shootings that will only be broadcast in the Netherlands. Please contact chrisveldkamp@yahoo.com
As a political science geek, let me clear things
up for you. There is no US board of education, it is the department of education and they wont do a damn thing. The local school board and the state dept of education have the most control. The fact is writing letters wont do anything most of the time because you cant vote,so they dont care. HOWEVER, in most states you can contribute to political campaigns. If say 50 geeks gave $20 a pop to their local school board members campaign
who pledged to actually do something to help you.
You better believe a $1000 in campaign contributions will get attention both from the
candidate and from the press. The press loves
"kids who are involved in the process" and if
school board members who are anti-geek see that kids are so angry that they are actually willing to contribute money and time to their opponents campaigns, you better believe that will get their attention.
The ugly fact is messed up geeks shooting kids doesnt scare the politicians,it just gives them another anti-geek crusade to do. Geeks who figures
out that the real long-term enemy, is not the
bully at the school, but the politicians who refuses to take action to protect students frighten the heck out of them.
Lawyers have more effect on schools than
any letter writing campaign. One lawsuit can
achieve more than 10,000 letters.
The day schools have to pay for negligence
in allowing brutality is the day things will
start to change.
Geez... it's been roughly 15 years since I was in
high school (and I guess the problems have just
gotten worse). I don't recall any incidents as extreme as some that I'm reading on the board,
but the school administration/ teachers were
completely useless (as were my parents).
The %@%^%# I went thru are still echoing thru my
life now - I really can sympathize and empathize
with all of you who are still in high school.
In response to this prev. post (and its last sentence), I highly recommend for anyone
interested to read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand -
in it, the bugaboo is communism/socialism, but
that doesn't really matter. The core theme is
what really matters - the value of free thinkers
and how society depends upon them, yet supresses
them.
The geeks in our society (me included :) give me hope for the future. These are people who can have an opinion, and probably stand up for their opinions. They will drive society into the future.
It's the morons I'm worried about. All those kids who live sheltered, planned out lives, nursed from the crib, through school, to college, into a corporation, into a family, mini-van, and finally death. It seems like there's too many sheep already and the flock is multiplying at a ridiculous rate.
The kids who never get a clue and buy in to all the things society is telling them about how bad differences (not racial differences mind you, intelectual ones) are will someday be teaching MY (and for all you teens, YOUR) kids. That's scary.
"A free man acts like a plague spot -- He'll infect my entire kingdom!" -- Sartre
After reading a lot of the last week's messages right here at Slashdot, and experiencing some similar situations myself (in Israel...), i agree with JonKatz, us geeks need to form a strong, on-line fighting community with clear and non-conforming goals and morals!
We should begin everything from scrach, setup local/global groups of people who will make sure that every one who torture ANYONE else, will pay the price (legally, ofcourse)...
If we would join our forces for the common cuase, we can create a force that can not be avoided.
With some inspiration and strong will we could begin ourselves the change everyobne is talking about in the media,education system, etc.
Imagine what will happen if every time a geek will be expeled from school becuase of his cloth/on-line habits/gaming prefs/behavior etc, someone will go to the supreme court and get that decision canceled, or if we combine all the messages right here at Slashdot and mail them to each and every big TV station/newspaper/magazine etc...
What im tring to say is that the only way for us to make a DIFFERENCE is by reaching outside of our own closed community and begin to influence the main power junctions of the "normal" culture!
GEEKS OF THE WORLD -- UNITE!!!
try67
To the fool, he who speaks wisdom will sound foolish. ---Euripides
I agree with you Jon, it's tragic and horrable that peaceful geeks are getting trashed. Truth be told, I had been tempted to raise a little commotion when I was in high school. But you're bogging down the slashdot server. I just want the news, not this stuff, it's been crammed down my throught for the last week, and I'm just tired of hearing about it.
Okay, I'm 42. Let's get that out in the open and over with. I'm not in the target demographic for this website.
I have, however, been a geek since about 1968, alienated while in school, and -that close- to whaling on my tormenters with a baseball bat.
Having read the article here, I forwarded it to all my Elder Geek friends with kids, and my comments, reproduced below:
Since most of us on the list could point to the high school experience and resonate with the term "outsider", and since most of us with kids are probably raising another generation of technogeeks, LARPers, filk-singers, and "demon-possessed" gamers (hey, their label not mine), this will be required reading[1] for you.
Really, I mean it. I believe the #1 thing parents can do to prevent Littleton from happening in their own backyards is: make your kids feel like they are part of a group. Scouts, band, a sports
team, a church youth group, it doesn't matter.
Imagine the last awkward social setting you were in. One where you didn't know anybody there, but everyone else knew each other and were talking amongst each other.
Now make "everyone else" 800 kids, who don't have the maturity to know (or care) when they are alienating someone. And now face this situation every day, 180 days a year for four years. That's
what high school can be like when you are different.
Find out what a typical day is like for your kid in school, even if it's just lower elementary and not high school. Find out if he or she gets picked on, whether they sit alone at lunch, whether their choice of cloths "fits in". No, you don't have to construct a social life at school for your kid, nor do you have to buy them a whole "popular wardrobe" to ensure they won't get beat up. But take some time to lubricate the wheels of education. Your kid almost certainly won't become a rampaging killer. Neither
will mine. But if you don't help them, who will?
Little things we've done to help our guys get through this trying time:
1) found out that everybody in junior high wears plain blue jeans if they wear pants. Green, grey, black all get pointed out as "different". Okay, so blue it is. Likewise, sports team shirts
are "in". Our kids could care less. So we found a "Taz" shirt that also glorifies the Dallas Drug-Users, er, Cowboys. Sigh: life is a compromise.
2) taught them that the best way to deal with bullies and name-calling is to be elsewhere. Not walk away when it happens, but not to be there in the first place. The bench out in front of school
is the popular hang-out, and where the alpha males show off how well they can reduce other kids to tears? Okay, don't go there.
3) got them both involved in band. Expensive? Yup, excruciatingly so. Inconvenient? Ditto--dragging instruments along on Thanksgiving
and Christmas visits is a pain, but the practicing doesn't recognize holidays. Rewarding? Oh, man: band is the only subject in which
my son doesn't get specialized instruction, and he's acing it all by himself.
It is really easy to push someone over the edge if they are on their way there. The kids in High School are Brutal!! I Am Glad I kicked High School out of my life....
Guns don't kill people People kill people...
And When Guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns.
We need to change the culture not outlaw guns...
The Culture needs to accept people that are different and respect them, Jocks Should not be worshipped and geeks demeaned simply because the jocks can run faster or jump higher..
Doom, Quake etc are methods of relieving frustration and aggression that is pent up, That geeks can not get out of their system on a football field, or basketball court because they are shunned by the people who usually inhabit such areas...