Look, Democracy and freedom are goals, they are a process and are something we should be constantly strive for.
No the goal is freedom, Democracy is a tool for that goal, but not the only tool. We are a democratic republic, a union of states, each of which can deligate its electors any way they please..
If the founding fathers thought that our laws should never change, they would have written that restriction into the Constitution.
Youre not changing laws, your changing the structure of government. Changing the EC is the equivilent of eliminating the president, might as well compleatly rewrite the constitution (and there is nothing to hold the states into a new union).
nstead they wrote the process of change into the constition, and there have been 16 amendments to the Constition in the last 200 years.
None of which fundimentally chaged the structure of the US govnermnet.
In the past, only white men who owned property could vote.
And they voted for electors
The situation is different today -- every citizen can vote regardless if they of their gender, race or economic status.
Not 5 year olds, but if they could they would still vote for electors
The Electoral College is an antiquated system. This is the 21st Century, not 18th Century rural America.
Kind of makes you wonder if we really do have a democracy.
G*d I am so sick of people saying that.
1) we dont have a democracy, we have a Federal Republic which elects its leaders
2) Just because people dont vote the way you would like (high turnover) does not mean the power does not reside in tehir hands.
3) In 1994 The republicans shocked everyon by capturing a huge number of seats from incumbant democrats in the house, and a decent number in the senate. So yes people can and have made major changes in the seating arrangements for members of congress.
The birth rate and the per-capita birth rate are different things! The former is the product of the latter and the total population. The fact that per-capita birth rate is decreasing (in some places) doesn't mean the earth's population isn't increasing enormously.
But you said the slow down in population is due to epidemec in African and the third world, not due to slowing growth in the first world..
Right and when majority rules, we call it a democracy
And unless every citizen gets to vote on every bill its not a true democracy.
A citizens vote in Montana is worth 2.5 times the vote of a citizen in California. That is anti-democratic.
and Alan greenspan is apointed, and 5 year olds cant vote *thats* undemocratic. Guess what we are not and were never to be a democracy, we are a republic. The president is the head of the states, not the head of the government. The law makers (Montana has 1 in the hose for 786K, and CA has 53 in the house 1 for every 650K.
Yes if you want to totally scrap the constitution and start over feel free but without the constitution there is nothing that compells any state to rejoin the union.
2) Drops in per-capita growth are most attributed to catastrophic African epidemics. No one should be happy "Oh, we don't need to provide for those people, we'll just let them die"
Huh? have you even looked at birth rates in the world?
The only nations with significantly growing ragtes are in Africa, the Middle East, and South East Asia. In the US there are less than 25 Births per year per one thousand addults. All of Europe (Save Ireland and Norway) are below 14!
He can use these to form the basis of his speeches to try sway public opinion. However, if public opinion is clearly against him / his beliefs, then he must do the job he was elected for and that is to carry out the will of the people. If he is uncomfortable serving a people who hold "heretical" viewpoints, then he should resign.
Or he could just state his position and we can have an election on it..
No, you are idealistic and not looking at a wide enough range of democratic systems. In context, it is clear the US system does not (and can not) work.
Yea that whole oldest functioning government thing is overhyped... There was a time when the Republicans *were* the 3rd party.
You need a proportional democracy for third parties, because the game is inherently rigged against them in a system where only parties that could get a majority in an electorate somewhere can get anywhere.
Umm first you have to understand the president is not the head of the US government. We elect 500 law makers every two years (and *gasp* have elected them outside the two parties). In that respect our government is proportional, every district choses a law maker.
You can put third partys on the ballot, but that doesn't mean it's possible for them to get seats, due to way the system inherently works.
MIchael moore never refered to anybody as traitors or enemies of the united states unlike the republitards.
Can you find me any elected offical saying that any other is a traitor?
Republitards ARE racists and homophobes though. I don't think there much debate about that.
Just because you really, really want it to be true does not make it so.
Lately they have tried to put on a friendly face towards the blacks and the hispanics because the elections are so close but lucky for them there are always other brown people to kill.
No democrats do a fine job of that too, I think it was Clinton who bombed an aspiran factory in the Sudan, and lobbed more than a few missles into Iraq..
BTW nothing you said contradicts my point about the upcoming civil war in this country.
Because its not outside of the realm of possability, I dont think its likely. I have seen hatered of those differnt (like yours) throught human history.
I hate you just as much as you hate me.
Umm I dont hate you I just think you are (a) A Bitter, hateful man (because of your words not your political beliefs) or (b) a troll
Eventually we will be lobbing grenades at each other for real instead of on slashdot.
I really hope it does not come to that, but it has happened all too many times in human history. Just remember my side has all the gun nuts;)
Re:Is montana really that bad?
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Hi my name is statistics, I can be a useful tool if you dont misuse me. Lets look at an example of statistics abuse...
You see where wyomings wages are?
See this is called a half truth, he tells you something which is true without putting it into context.
Lets look at the whole picture..
28,043$ The average slasry in WY
29,131$ This is Lousinanna who BTW have a Governer from the Democratic party.
Keep in mind that he is also ignoring things like the cost of living which is far lower in WY than say CA or NY..
Notice he also brings up West Va and callls these staets leeches, I guess the former clansman and Democratic senator from that state dont have anything to do with the pork it receivs right?
On the other hand I am glad there is such low unemployment I guess that's what happens in a state that's almost all empty.
Guess he does not understand per capita either..
Re:Is montana really that bad?
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LOL, thats the problem with any homogeneous political system go to Buffalo NY and look at the crap hole that democrats have turned that into. Every year business leaves and the city rund deeper in the red, and every year they elect the same pathetic liberal democrats to run the place.
Its almost like things should change from time to time, oh wait I forget you cant see that if your a partisan knee-padder... Go about your business..
Seriously, I'm totally at sea here. Either you're crazy (and I'm crazy for talking to you) or you're using "liberal" and "conservative" in a very creative way.
Hmm lets see
He has greatly increased the size of government, creating huge entitlement programs. He has not reduced the scope of government instead increasing its hold on the school systems, and on local law enforcement. He has said that if the AWB had been renewed by congress he would have signed it into law.
What I am saying is GB is *NOT* a conservative. Can you tell me why you think he is conservative?
The reason third parties will never be a factor is that they have to spend all their money just GETTING ON THE BALLOT
Umm after the 1992 election the reform party was *automatically* on the ballot in 50 states. The Green Party is automatically on the ballot in many (if not all) states, as is the socialist party. The third parties have trouble in this nation because they tend to be *very* extreemest, the last serious 3rd party who was not was the 1992/96 reform party.
All I'm saying is that the "third parties" (it's no coincidence that all zillion of the other parties are lumped together with that title) should have a level playing field with the Republicans and the Democrats. Right now, it's very much not, and that's not right.
Repeat after me, equality of outcome does not equal equality of opportunity (level playing field). The third parties have to do the exact smae thing the big-2 have to do in order to be on the ballot.
To a republitard every else is evil and an enemy of the united states. THey hate people who disagree with them often enough to kill them.
Ladies and gentlemen I give you a moron. Lets see Republicans hate everyone, but tolerant Democrats look at people individually, oh wait except for republitards..
Thank your stars you are not an American, we are not too far away from a civil war
Highly unlikely
The flames are already being fanned by the right wing media.
Yea Micheal more and faked CBS memo's are sure a sign of how the evil right wingers have a lock on hatred in the media..
There are numerous books out about how liberals are the "enemy within" and are traitors and hate america.
And I hear the exact same points all the time from the left when it comes to the right (they hate freedom, they are all racist, they want to starve school kids, blah blah)..
Really? China can park four Carrier Battle Groups (one carrier air wing outclasses almost every Air Force in the World) off the coast of a county they have deployed 120,000 troops into over 5,000 miles from home?
I have two African American friends, one has lighter skin than the other. Now if he has lighter skin does that make him white? Okay now I GB is less liberal than Kerry does that make him conservative?
Yes, some third party candidates are on the ballots in some states. Guess who is on the ballot in every state? Guess who is going to win? (Hint: There are only two remote possibilities).
And whos fault is that? is it the system or is it the third party's? I will point out that the greens, the libertarians, the socialist, and I think the constitution party are on enough state ballots to win.
I will be awe-struck if any state is carried by any third party candidate
That is not! the point. in 1992 Ross Perot carried about 20% of the electorate as a third party candidate. The reason that third candidates do not impact most elections is because people dont vote for them, not because they dont have a choice (hint: something being democratic does not mean the results fall as you wish).
If you don't think Bush is more conservative than Kerry, you're a loony.
What the hell does that matter John Edwards is more conservative then Kerry that does not mean he is a conservative..
When I said "I", I meant "I as a member of We the People". It was a rhetorical thing...musta gone a little fast for you. My bad. I would like my voting preferances to be tallied in a more-accurate-than-binary way.
I didn't say that nobody should be appointed. I said the President should not be appointed.
Well when you appoint the guy who sets monitary policy for the fed thats kinda undemocratic no? As for your issue with the EC you have to get this "president is the head of our government" business out of your head, he cant even get his pick for the appelet court through because of 45 Democrats in the senate.
We pick 500 people from a list of 1000.
Thats funny in the last election I saw at least five candidates on my states ballot (Bush, Gore, Nader, Brown, (and then the socialist party)). I voted third party. When more people do it in congressional elections things will change, its in the peoples hands.
That is a poor modeling of the body politic. And that needs to be changed.
Want to get on the presidential ballot in LA? all it takes is a small fee (few hundred), I think KY requires 500 signatures. Heck the Greens, Constitution, Libertarians, Socialist are on every ballot in MN..
Conservatives want a smaller fed, except for the FBI NSA CIA that will catch homos in trying to get married once we get that Constitutional amendment that was ordained by God. Oh yeah, and those dirty terrorists.
I am assuming you have something to back this up? And dont point to bush he is no more conservative then Kerry..
Any voting system that does not allow me to kick ALL those conniving bastards out is broken.
Ahhh I see youre all for dictatorship so long as youre the dictator? Sorry it does not work that way. only three times in US history has the EC differed from the popular vote. Considering the preseident was never supposed to be elected directly thats not too bad.
As a former New Yorker, I dont want any of those wallet grabbing moochers to vote for thos who represent me in Minnesota. You may not give a damn about states right's, thus youre free to try and get 3/4's of the to agree with you and change (or throw out) the constitution.
You are setting a standard for democracy that no nation ever could acheive, it would take 100 run off elections to get consensus on when to have an election.
If "undemocratic" means "Does not accurately model the Will of the People", then yes, the EC is undemocratic.
Did you vote for alan greenspan? I gues we should have nobody in government actually be appointed. Gosh and ppl in FL had trouble with the 2K ballots..
So is our entire election system. I argue that we would get better governance if the government were more accountable to We the People.
Umm every two years we pick 500 people to make laws. It is done in districts by popular vote..
Slashdot Mirror
So I guess all those countries that subsidize Airbus (europe) are fasist huh?
No the goal is freedom, Democracy is a tool for that goal, but not the only tool. We are a democratic republic, a union of states, each of which can deligate its electors any way they please..
If the founding fathers thought that our laws should never change, they would have written that restriction into the Constitution.
Youre not changing laws, your changing the structure of government. Changing the EC is the equivilent of eliminating the president, might as well compleatly rewrite the constitution (and there is nothing to hold the states into a new union).
nstead they wrote the process of change into the constition, and there have been 16 amendments to the Constition in the last 200 years.
None of which fundimentally chaged the structure of the US govnermnet.
In the past, only white men who owned property could vote.
And they voted for electors
The situation is different today -- every citizen can vote regardless if they of their gender, race or economic status.
Not 5 year olds, but if they could they would still vote for electors
The Electoral College is an antiquated system. This is the 21st Century, not 18th Century rural America.
How is it antiquated..
Actually the scripting did not start until after 1992 when the league of women voters was replaced by the joke that is in place now..
Oh yea the republians are the ones comitting voter fraud /Sarcasm
G*d I am so sick of people saying that.
1) we dont have a democracy, we have a Federal Republic which elects its leaders
2) Just because people dont vote the way you would like (high turnover) does not mean the power does not reside in tehir hands.
3) In 1994 The republicans shocked everyon by capturing a huge number of seats from incumbant democrats in the house, and a decent number in the senate. So yes people can and have made major changes in the seating arrangements for members of congress.
But you said the slow down in population is due to epidemec in African and the third world, not due to slowing growth in the first world..
And unless every citizen gets to vote on every bill its not a true democracy.
A citizens vote in Montana is worth 2.5 times the vote of a citizen in California. That is anti-democratic.
and Alan greenspan is apointed, and 5 year olds cant vote *thats* undemocratic. Guess what we are not and were never to be a democracy, we are a republic. The president is the head of the states, not the head of the government. The law makers (Montana has 1 in the hose for 786K, and CA has 53 in the house 1 for every 650K.
Yes if you want to totally scrap the constitution and start over feel free but without the constitution there is nothing that compells any state to rejoin the union.
Huh? have you even looked at birth rates in the world?
The only nations with significantly growing ragtes are in Africa, the Middle East, and South East Asia. In the US there are less than 25 Births per year per one thousand addults. All of Europe (Save Ireland and Norway) are below 14!
Or he could just state his position and we can have an election on it..
ANd we can ask why nations like france are considering reducing guarenteed benefits because they can no longer afford them..
Because only the cities will matter, campaign in NYC, CHI, LA, DC, BOS, SF, ... and ignore most of the nation..
Yea that whole oldest functioning government thing is overhyped... There was a time when the Republicans *were* the 3rd party.
You need a proportional democracy for third parties, because the game is inherently rigged against them in a system where only parties that could get a majority in an electorate somewhere can get anywhere.
Umm first you have to understand the president is not the head of the US government. We elect 500 law makers every two years (and *gasp* have elected them outside the two parties). In that respect our government is proportional, every district choses a law maker.
You can put third partys on the ballot, but that doesn't mean it's possible for them to get seats, due to way the system inherently works.
Impossible you say?
Can you find me any elected offical saying that any other is a traitor?
Republitards ARE racists and homophobes though. I don't think there much debate about that.
Just because you really, really want it to be true does not make it so.
Lately they have tried to put on a friendly face towards the blacks and the hispanics because the elections are so close but lucky for them there are always other brown people to kill.
No democrats do a fine job of that too, I think it was Clinton who bombed an aspiran factory in the Sudan, and lobbed more than a few missles into Iraq..
BTW nothing you said contradicts my point about the upcoming civil war in this country.
Because its not outside of the realm of possability, I dont think its likely. I have seen hatered of those differnt (like yours) throught human history.
I hate you just as much as you hate me.
Umm I dont hate you I just think you are (a) A Bitter, hateful man (because of your words not your political beliefs) or (b) a troll
Eventually we will be lobbing grenades at each other for real instead of on slashdot.
I really hope it does not come to that, but it has happened all too many times in human history. Just remember my side has all the gun nuts ;)
You see where wyomings wages are?
See this is called a half truth, he tells you something which is true without putting it into context.
Lets look at the whole picture..
28,043$ The average slasry in WY
29,131$ This is Lousinanna who BTW have a Governer from the Democratic party.
Keep in mind that he is also ignoring things like the cost of living which is far lower in WY than say CA or NY..
Notice he also brings up West Va and callls these staets leeches, I guess the former clansman and Democratic senator from that state dont have anything to do with the pork it receivs right?
On the other hand I am glad there is such low unemployment I guess that's what happens in a state that's almost all empty.
Guess he does not understand per capita either..
Its almost like things should change from time to time, oh wait I forget you cant see that if your a partisan knee-padder... Go about your business..
Hmm lets see
He has greatly increased the size of government, creating huge entitlement programs. He has not reduced the scope of government instead increasing its hold on the school systems, and on local law enforcement. He has said that if the AWB had been renewed by congress he would have signed it into law.
What I am saying is GB is *NOT* a conservative. Can you tell me why you think he is conservative?
The reason third parties will never be a factor is that they have to spend all their money just GETTING ON THE BALLOT
Umm after the 1992 election the reform party was *automatically* on the ballot in 50 states. The Green Party is automatically on the ballot in many (if not all) states, as is the socialist party. The third parties have trouble in this nation because they tend to be *very* extreemest, the last serious 3rd party who was not was the 1992/96 reform party.
All I'm saying is that the "third parties" (it's no coincidence that all zillion of the other parties are lumped together with that title) should have a level playing field with the Republicans and the Democrats. Right now, it's very much not, and that's not right.
Repeat after me, equality of outcome does not equal equality of opportunity (level playing field). The third parties have to do the exact smae thing the big-2 have to do in order to be on the ballot.
Ladies and gentlemen I give you a moron. Lets see Republicans hate everyone, but tolerant Democrats look at people individually, oh wait except for republitards..
Thank your stars you are not an American, we are not too far away from a civil war
Highly unlikely
The flames are already being fanned by the right wing media.
Yea Micheal more and faked CBS memo's are sure a sign of how the evil right wingers have a lock on hatred in the media..
There are numerous books out about how liberals are the "enemy within" and are traitors and hate america.
And I hear the exact same points all the time from the left when it comes to the right (they hate freedom, they are all racist, they want to starve school kids, blah blah)..
No but they can Nuke California...
Please, A canadian liberal elected official called Americans Bastards, and I have have heard worse from the french. Its a joke, deal...
Which I do, I am voting for the constitution party if you mush know..
I have two African American friends, one has lighter skin than the other. Now if he has lighter skin does that make him white? Okay now I GB is less liberal than Kerry does that make him conservative?
Yes, some third party candidates are on the ballots in some states. Guess who is on the ballot in every state? Guess who is going to win? (Hint: There are only two remote possibilities).
And whos fault is that? is it the system or is it the third party's? I will point out that the greens, the libertarians, the socialist, and I think the constitution party are on enough state ballots to win.
I will be awe-struck if any state is carried by any third party candidate
That is not! the point. in 1992 Ross Perot carried about 20% of the electorate as a third party candidate. The reason that third candidates do not impact most elections is because people dont vote for them, not because they dont have a choice (hint: something being democratic does not mean the results fall as you wish).
What the hell does that matter John Edwards is more conservative then Kerry that does not mean he is a conservative..
When I said "I", I meant "I as a member of We the People". It was a rhetorical thing...musta gone a little fast for you. My bad. I would like my voting preferances to be tallied in a more-accurate-than-binary way.
A list for you is provided Here
Looks like you had mroe than two choices all along..
Well when you appoint the guy who sets monitary policy for the fed thats kinda undemocratic no? As for your issue with the EC you have to get this "president is the head of our government" business out of your head, he cant even get his pick for the appelet court through because of 45 Democrats in the senate.
We pick 500 people from a list of 1000.
Thats funny in the last election I saw at least five candidates on my states ballot (Bush, Gore, Nader, Brown, (and then the socialist party)). I voted third party. When more people do it in congressional elections things will change, its in the peoples hands.
That is a poor modeling of the body politic. And that needs to be changed.
Want to get on the presidential ballot in LA? all it takes is a small fee (few hundred), I think KY requires 500 signatures. Heck the Greens, Constitution, Libertarians, Socialist are on every ballot in MN..
I am assuming you have something to back this up? And dont point to bush he is no more conservative then Kerry..
Any voting system that does not allow me to kick ALL those conniving bastards out is broken.
Ahhh I see youre all for dictatorship so long as youre the dictator? Sorry it does not work that way. only three times in US history has the EC differed from the popular vote. Considering the preseident was never supposed to be elected directly thats not too bad.
As a former New Yorker, I dont want any of those wallet grabbing moochers to vote for thos who represent me in Minnesota. You may not give a damn about states right's, thus youre free to try and get 3/4's of the to agree with you and change (or throw out) the constitution.
You are setting a standard for democracy that no nation ever could acheive, it would take 100 run off elections to get consensus on when to have an election.
Did you vote for alan greenspan? I gues we should have nobody in government actually be appointed. Gosh and ppl in FL had trouble with the 2K ballots..
So is our entire election system. I argue that we would get better governance if the government were more accountable to We the People.
Umm every two years we pick 500 people to make laws. It is done in districts by popular vote..