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Help Select Questions for Bush and Kerry

This is a strange post in that it has 50 comments attached to it already. These are 50 questions for Bush and Kerry selected by non-Slashdot moderators, as explained in our original call for help with the New Voters Project Presidential Youth Debate. At this point, where you come in is not only with extra-insightful moderation of these 50 questions, but with your "many eyes" trying to spot questions these two candidates have answered elsewhere so that the final questions presented to them are not repeats. The first 40 questions are from potential voters aged 18 - 35. The last 10 are from future voters 13 - 17. And that's enough explanation. From here we might as well jump right into the questions...

1,501 comments

  1. 18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    President Bush and Senator Kerry, both of you talk a lot about the importance of promoting democracy in other countries. However, I have never heard either of you take on the issue of election reform in our own country. The current presidential system seems to have several shortcomings, including two-party duopoly and the ability to win the Election even after losing the popular vote. This hardly seems democratic. What are your positions on instant-runoff voting and proportional representation? Do you currently, and would you in the future, support any reforms to encourage a greater diversity in our political system?

    1. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Thunderstruck · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Does it seem that this question is loaded with bias against the electoral system? I think a question regarding the future of the electoral college is a good one, but this one seems loaded.

      Perhaps it would be better to ask whether the influence of the electors should be removed, maintained, or increased?

      --
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    2. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Salis · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A better electorate question might ask the candidates how they feel about the usage of paper-less electronic voting machines which have proven vulnerabilities.

      There are many ways to tally the votes (electoral college, proportional electorate by state, etc), but if the votes themselves are vulnerable to fraud then democracy of any type is in peril.

      --
      Favorite /. tagline: "On the eighth day, God created FORTRAN." And it was good.
    3. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by catbutt · · Score: 1

      I think you should change "instant runoff voting" to "ranked choice voting", which is a more general term that applies not only to IRV but to the much superior Condorcet methods. True IRV is a very flawed system.

    4. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Jimmy_B · · Score: 1

      I'd rather approval voting was suggested rather than the hard-to-understand instant runoff voting.

    5. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 3, Informative

      I agree, it seems a bit loaded because of what happened in 2000. Few and fewer still on /. complained about Lincoln becoming President without winning the popular vote.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_e le ction%2C_1860

      39.82% for Lincoln

      Or Clinton in 92 with 42.93%
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presiden tial_ele ction%2C_1992

      Or Wilson in 1912 with 41.9%
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._president ial_ele ction%2C_1912

    6. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by craXORjack · · Score: 1

      This is an excellent question especially since Nader addressed this in the Nader-Libertarian-Reform Parties Debate. Here is some background if anyone is interested.

      --
      Liberals call everyone Nazis yet they are the closest thing to it.
    7. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by bofkentucky · · Score: 1

      The popular/electoral disparity is because we only run the census every ten years, if we ran the census every even year and redistricted in the odd years we would not see as wide a gap as we saw in 2000. Never mind the fact that plenty of presidents have won without taking the popular vote.

      --
      09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
    8. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. It's a good question if you stick to purely changing the voting system.

      In general, you always want your questions to be as narrow and brief as possible. You start including too many things, and you give them an easy way out -- they can go on a tangent about any part and ignore the rest.

    9. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Jerf · · Score: 1

      I disagree with the 5 rating on this (as I write it). Who cares what the President thinks of this? Changing our voting system would require a Constitutional amendment (at least for the Presidency), and if I recall correctly, under no scenario does the President have anything to do with that, just State legislators and Congress.

      As fascinating as this question is, why not ask questions that actually reflect how the candidates will be in office?

    10. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Er, you mean, it's an entirely differente question. Yours deals with voter fraud, and the original deals with the election process.

      Granted, you have a good question, but it bears little resembelance to the original one.

    11. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by aggieben · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The current presidential system seems to have several shortcomings, including two-party duopoly and the ability to win the Election even after losing the popular vote. This hardly seems democratic.

      I have two issues here. Firstly, the two-party system was by design and has its benefits. It is not a historical mistake to be corrected (ok, really three things. The electoral college was also not a mistake). Secondly, the US is not a democracy. It is a constitutional republic. Democracy was intentionally avoided. It is actually a well thought out question and surely sincere, although not well informed.

      --
      Don't become a regular here, you will become retarded. -- Yoda the Retard
    12. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by cheezit · · Score: 1

      "Never mind the fact that plenty of presidents have won without taking the popular vote."

      Really? How do you define "taking"? I understood that in only one case had the candidate with the most votes NOT won. There have been plenty of cases where the winner didn't get over 50%, due to third party candidates etc.

      Care to name a few presidents to support that statement?

      --
      Premature optimization is the root of all evil
    13. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by JustOK · · Score: 2, Insightful
      This hardly seems democratic.
      I would hope someone would point out that its the "United STATES of America", not the "United People of America". Like it or not, your vote is limited to your state. Your state elects the President, not you. Until this point is clarified in the mind of the askers, its no more than sophistry. That is:
      1. Plausible but fallacious argumentation.
      2. A plausible but misleading or fallacious argument.
      It should not be asked.
      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    14. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by vandan · · Score: 0

      Excellent!

      Electoral reform is a pre-requisite for removing the 2-party system that has plagued the US for decades.

      It's been said before, but:

      MOD PARENT UP

    15. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by siriuskase · · Score: 1

      I'd prefer to see it phrased "proportianal voting system". that includes approval, ranked, condorcet, party list, and possibly other things that are more fair than the current system. It is also a general enough term that it doesn't need to be explained.

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    16. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So I guess it's off-topic to ask them about abortion also, since the supreme court ruled that it's protected under the constitution and only an amendment could change it?

      Wake up! The president has a huge influence over isses that they don't directly rule on. Election reform is one of the most important issues of our generation; I for one view it as the vehicle by which we will either regain or lose democracy in America.

    17. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by buttahead · · Score: 1

      yes, i agree, in one case the fraud is with the voter.. in the other case it lies with the government.

    18. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by siriuskase · · Score: 1

      Good question, but completely different than the one you are replying to. Vote fraud is one thing, voting system is completely different. Maybe the voting fraud question will appear down the list somewhere because it is important, especially since so many states want to use opaque machines requiring more trust than even the most honest politician or beaurocrat deserves.

      --
      If you must moderate, please moderate as irrelevent, not something bad, because I'm sure someone will find this interest
    19. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by jmweeks · · Score: 1
      Not exactly. Yes, the disparity could be amplified due to population shifts between censuses, but that wasn't the case in the most recent presidential election. The states that went to Bush actually gained in electoral college votes since that election, so he would have had a more decisive win--yet he clearly lost the popular vote.

      The disparity between the popular vote and the electoral college is mainly due to two things: (1) that each state recieves two extra votes not based upon population and (2) that most states have a winner-take-all system.

      Point one makes it unlikely that any constitutional amendment to do away with the electoral college would pass: roughly half the states have (positive) disproportionate influence on the presidential election, so it would likely not be approved by the required 3/4 of the states. Point two makes it unlikely that either major political party would support an amendment, as the winner-takes-all system tends to nullify any minor political parties, as well as turning lackluster pluralities into majorities.

    20. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by bofkentucky · · Score: 1

      1824 is merely speculation on how a popular vote would have went, but the 1888 vote was clearly skewed in popular vs electoral. The more than 50% case was the one the Gore supporters have screamed the loudest over since 2000. Which to give hime credit was more of the vote that any democrat had gotten since Jimmy Carter in 76.

      --
      09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
    21. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How was the two party issue by design? Explain this one to me. As I understand it, there is no inbuilt system of "Political Parties" in the US system the way there is in various other systems.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    22. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by yog · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The electoral college helps protect smaller states from being dominated by larger states. At one time, Americans identified more with their state than with their country; e.g., Thomas Jefferson declared that "I am a Virginian", not an American. The smaller states feared that the large population centers would swamp them and effectively reduce their voice in government. Therefore, the electoral college sometimes allows a candidate to win who did not win the collective majority.

      In 2000, George W. Bush carried 30 states, though most of the most populous states did not favor him. This is truly an example of what the electoral college was designed to do.

      These arguments people make today about stealing elections and the unfairness of the system really stem from an ignorance of American history. True, the electoral college system is not perfect and perhaps should be replaced with a simple absolute majority in this age when people no longer identify so strongly with their locales.

      Someone else pointed out that there were several presidents who did not win an absolute majority of the vote, but very few actually lost the popular vote. Clinton did not win an absolute majority; more people wanted either GHW Bush or Perot than wanted Clinton by quite a large margin, i.e. about 57% to 43%. However the electoral college gave it to Clinton. Interestingly, no one talks about how unfair it was that Clinton got elected, perhaps because he was lucky enough to preside over a great economic boom that ended just as he was leaving office.

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    23. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Jerf · · Score: 1

      Wake up! The president has a huge influence over isses that they don't directly rule on.

      No shit, Sherlock. It is also no shit, Sherlock, that they have much more influence over things they do directly rule on. Much, much, much more. This is a marginal issue not worth wasting a valuable question on. Observing that the value is not zero, which is all you did, proves nothing about the relative value of the question, and that's the entire point of this little exercise.

      Get some context.

    24. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Moofie · · Score: 1

      If somebody wants to be President, they sure ought to be able to gracefully handle a loaded question.

      Of course neither of these yahoos can take a dump without asking every political adviser in a 200 mile radius...

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    25. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Moofie · · Score: 1

      The Republican Party and the Democratic Party run every election in the US. They make the rules, they print the ballots.

      There ya go.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    26. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by LearnToSpell · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The difference in those cases is that the person who got the greatest number of votes in each election became president, which is not what happened in 2000. We're not necessarily looking for a majority, but when the president-"elect" gets 500,000 fewer votes, something's whacky.

    27. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by mrkslntbob · · Score: 2, Informative

      If the two party system was by design, then Nader, the Libertarian Candidate, and a bunch of other people would not be on the ballot anywhere. However, they are allowed on, depending on the requirments in that state, most people just choose not to vote for them assuming they won't win, but if everyone went out and voted for a third party candidate, they'd become president despite not being a pawn of the Republican/Democratic parties.

    28. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by trick-knee · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, Wyatt, all the examples you cite show that the elected candidate as the one who got the most votes, so I'm not seeing your point. Sure, none of these got more than 50% of the popular vote, but they all got more than than the other candidates.

      Why didn't you include the Y2K election, in which G.W. Bush got less than 50%, as well as losing the popular vote?

    29. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by mchawi · · Score: 1

      A plurality is still winning the popular vote. You don't have to have EVERYONE like you to win (or even a majority)!

      If we went there, we'd eventually get to the point where people would stop voting until we elected a president with a 2-1 vote - a clear majority :)

    30. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by mog007 · · Score: 1

      George Bush LOOOOOVES that you can win a vote without the majority of the voters saying you're the best person for the job. Why? Well....

    31. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by jd · · Score: 1
      It's a question neither can answer. No matter what they say, it is going to upset way too many voters in the swing states.


      (On the other hand, I'd love to know what they really did think on this issue. America isn't a democracy, as others have noted. Few States practice any form of Proportional Representation, and many States - Florida especially - have highly suspect lists of legitamate voters. This means the system is easy to corrupt and isn't naturally balanced within itself.)


      Further, given that America isn't a Democracy, and practices a system that other countries reject as suspect, it is rather dubious as to how America can claim to teach others how to manage their political systems.


      (An electoral college in the US, which is a loose-knit federation of 50 semi-independent States, almost makes sense. But how on earth can it be rational in Iraq, which has many religions and ethnic groups but is essentially a single entity?)

      --
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    32. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by IndependentVik · · Score: 1

      That's what the system has become, but was it originally designed that way? That's the question the grandparent was asking. My recollection of civics tells me that there was no formal structuring at the inception of our political process that gave rise to the two-party system, but I'll be happy to be corrected :)

      --
      I'd suggest you don't use Slashdot as your only news source, or you will suffer permanent brain damage.
    33. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interestingly, no one talks about how unfair it was that Clinton got elected, perhaps because he was lucky enough to preside over a great economic boom that ended just as he was leaving office.

      Yeah, too bad the Iraq war didn't happen under Clinton's watch. Poor Bush got stuck with it (along with the next 5-6 presidents).

    34. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by shanen · · Score: 1
      A much more significant problem than the mechanics of voting itself is the increasingly pernicious influence of big money on the election system. My proposed question would be:

      Both of you aggressively criticize each other for spending too much money on the campaign and for being owned by the major campaign donors. What are you going to do about it?

      (Of course, this question is loaded against Bush, since he's already done nothing--except for setting amazing new records for campaign fund raising.)

      P.S. Just in case it isn't obvious, I think freedom and democracy are good things. However, free people can choose to give up their freedoms (by voting for demagogues like Dubya), and democracy is just a competitive advantage. As America continues to become less and less democratic, other nations will surpass and eventually eclipse her.

      P.P.S. Teddy Roosevelt and Ike were just two of the prominent Republican presidents who criticized it, but McCain is the only prominent GOP politician who really cares about the issue now (and you saw what the big-money candidate Dubya did to him in the primaries in 2000).

      --
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    35. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by fmita · · Score: 1

      That sounds more like a logistics questions. The original question, though it may be loaded as a poster said above, would be more conducive to a discussion of politics.

    36. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by wedgiesaurus · · Score: 1

      Besides being extremely prejudiced against the electoral college, you also refer to a 'two-party duopoly' that we have in America. This is not something that a president can easily fix, nor is it something that could be easily changed as our Constitution requires a simple majority (i.e. 51%) of votes for a candidate to win. If you want to get into their thoughts on changing the constitution, amending it one way or another for gay marriage would be the place to start, not with the concept of a simple majority versus plurality for elections.

    37. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      No, it was not designed that way. Just take a look at the Constitution.

      and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. (Article II, Section 1, Paragraph 3)

      It appears that the founders expected that it would be common to have more than 5 candidates for President.

    38. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by IndependentVik · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Interestingly, no one talks about how unfair it was that Clinton got elected.

      It's true, Clinton didn't win an absolute majority, but you neglect to mention that he did win the plurality. Nobody was bitching about it then because he still got more votes than any other individual candidate, something which GWB cannot claim.

      --
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    39. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You completly missed his point. The system is set up so New York, California, and Florida don't decide each election. If that were the case then what would be the point of a canidate to even consider what voters want in the rest of the 47 states?

    40. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's already been said but I have to respond to this. It appears as if this person doesn't know why the electoral college was created in the first place.

      Straight popular vote should not always win the election. We have a federalist system, not a direct democracy. The electoral system ensures that small states still have a say in the outcome, and ensures campaigning around the country. A direct vote would ensure the people in NYC, LA, and Houston (and other large cities) get lots of attention, and the rest of us get nothing.

      Why campaign to the rural areas when you can hit 7 million people in one stop instead?

      Before we even think about changing the electoral college, we need to seriously consider the ramifications.

    41. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by IndependentVik · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, AC, I didn't miss his point at all. Reading between the lines, it seemed to me that he was muddying up the waters to the point where he was saying "people shouldn't complain about the election of GWB, because Clinton's was also illegitmate". If there's one thing I HATE it's when spin is used to create a draw where one side should clearly be the loser. Comparing the legitimatices of BC's and GWB's respective elections seemed to me be practically shouting with this kind of spin. I could be wrong, however, and if the parent had no such agenda, then I apologize to him, and to you as well.

      --
      I'd suggest you don't use Slashdot as your only news source, or you will suffer permanent brain damage.
    42. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In 1992, Clinton had a plurality of the popular vote (he had more votes than any other candidate). Further, a system like IRV would still have awarded him the election: he was the second choice of about half the Perot voters. Same thing with Condorcet voting, etc.

      By contrast, in 2000, Bush would have lost in almost any other voting system other than electoral college voting. Gore had a plurality of the popular vote and probably would have won any of the alternative methods like IRV, Condorcet, or PR. Further, the result of the election scandal was to not count a large segment of democratic votes correctly (not just the hanging chads; Buchanan received some votes that were meant for Gore as well; hanging chads only occurred in those cases where people noticed their mistake; in some cases, the votes were indistinguishable from those intended for Buchanan).

      As a result, there was widespread outrage among those who felt cheated (note: many blame the supreme court, which is unfair; the supreme court correctly threw out the disputed ballots; if voters can't be bothered to redo their ballots to clearly indicate their intent, that's not something that the supreme court has the right to fix; the law says to throw out disputed votes, so they did). Not to mention that the state with the ballot irregularities has his brother as governor. The whole situation smelled (perhaps worse than was really warranted).

    43. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Salis · · Score: 1

      Notice how I said a "better question". Why? Because ANY proposed voting system that lacks a trusted and verifiable way to collect and tally votes is truly a WASTE OF TIME.

      The argument against the electoral college has been going on for 50 years. It's not new. Electronic voting is new. Paper-less voting is new. Let's not rehash old boring questions with the same old stodgy answers. The future of accountable democracy is in the hands of a computer that we supposedly must just 'trust' to give the right answer.

      Any computer programmer (or any Slashdotter, for that matter) should know that computers only give you the answer the human operator programs it to do. There is no inherent security to it. There is no trust without validation.

      We're messing with our democracy and people are still ogling the LCD screen.

      --
      Favorite /. tagline: "On the eighth day, God created FORTRAN." And it was good.
    44. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 5, Insightful
      It's only "whacky" if you assume that a majority of the popular vote ought to decide the election. Plainly, the Founding Fathers thought otherwise. Did you know there's not even a Consitutional requirement for a popular vote in Presidential elections? The States are free to assign them by whatever means they want. They were actually chosen by the legislatures in a few States in the early days.

      Here's a question: Why do you think a President ought to be chosen by popular vote?

      I'm sure your instinct will be to tell me that I'm asking that question the wrong way around. That's a sign that you've been thoroughly indoctrinated. Make an effort to cast aside your assumptions and try to build a case for chosing a President by a simple majority. If you're honest about it, you'll find it surprisingly difficult.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    45. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by C10H14N2 · · Score: 1
      ...there's a problem with this question. Per the Article II of the U.S. Constitution regarding the electors:

      Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct..."

      States rights, period, and states will not give up their rights without one hell of a fight. This is a major issue, but this question will not produce an interesting answer from a presidential candidate. The president has NO power to change this situation and even the Congress has extremely limited power to change it -- constitutional amendments are a major states' rights issue (read: ratification) -- so why the hell are we asking the question of a presidential candidate in the first place?

      Lobby your state legislature on this. They can change it in a heartbeat, at least for your vote. But, please, don't ask this of someone who can't do a damned thing about it. All you'll get is empty spin and hyperbole.

      Once a significant number of states embrace the idea, then we can reasonably talk about making a sweeping constitutional amendment that has a prayer of being passed and quickly ratified.

    46. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by drinkypoo · · Score: 0, Troll

      What benefits do we derive from a two-party system? Having a choice between the old boss, and the new boss who's same as the old boss doesn't seem to actually do anything FOR us. Actually, each party is pretty different: Democrats want to take everyone's money and use it to help those who need help. Republicans want to help the rich without taking as much money... It's true that democracy was intentionally avoided but I think that the time for that might be past now. One man, one vote.

      P.S. By one man I mean one person. How come womyn never seem to see "women" and "woman" as meaning more than men and man, anyway? End disclaimer.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    47. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US Constitution, and Bill of Rights specificly were to protect minority intrest. The majority may change their mind and decide to wipe out the rights of other citizens. If this were to happen where it was a pure majority, people would be ammending the constitution all time. With the advent of the internet people can now assemble and form a majority faction in which to change the constitution.

      If we were to get a president that was elected clearly by the majority, we might see things like Wardriving, Linux, and whatever you can think of becoming illegal because most people don't understand and then thus fear them. Its a good system we have in place where minority is protected equaly.

    48. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Omega697 · · Score: 1

      The two-party system was designed implicitly, not explicitly. You won't find a mention anywhere of "There shall be 2 parties" or anything like that. Simply by having a "winner-take-all" scenario for most things and requiring majorities in certain places, the 2 party system falls out pretty naturally. In other countries, where there is more proportional representation, more parties spring up. We have lots of little parties in the US, but most of the time they don't matter at all. Certainly, the framers wanted there to be alternatives in cases of dire need (and that has been helpful in the past - usually either the new party sucks up one of the old parties or the new party disbands when one of the old parties addresses their issue). In any case, the behavior of our system is actually a quite natural result of the way things were set up - it's not a big conspiracy or anything.

    49. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      I'd rather approval voting was suggested rather than the hard-to-understand instant runoff voting.

      Bzzt. The fundamentals of IRV are a lot easier to understand than "approval" (Concordet). Just find a random friend and ask if she can guess how to run an "instant runoff election", and then an "approval" one. IRV has the advantage that the name actually describes how to do it!

      That is the ONLY advantage IRV has... the alternative-vote-counting movement would've completely settled behind "approval" by now, except that it's harder to teach.

    50. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The electoral college helps protect smaller states from being dominated by larger states.

      It did until the large states realized that they could gain electoral power by making all of their electors vote for the same candidate. Under the winner-take-all system, the Electoral College has a huge bias in favor of large states. The Banzhaf Power Index is about 3 times as high in California as in Montana. And that's ignoring the fact that all of the 3-vote states (and [especially] DC) are "decided", which gives the voters there even less influence.


      In 2000, George W. Bush carried 30 states, though most of the most populous states did not favor him.

      He carried 2 of the 4 most populous states. Otherwise, he wouldn't have had a chance.


      True, the electoral college system is not perfect and perhaps should be replaced with a simple absolute majority

      Direct popular vote, although a vast improvement over the EC, has problems of its own. Notably, the possiblity of a national recount. (If you thought Florida was bad...) For that reason, I think a better approach would be to constitutionally require every state to allocate its electoral votes proportionally like Colorado is considering.

    51. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Matrix14 · · Score: 1

      I don't care about the states when it comes to Ferderal elections, and I don't think I'm alone. Yes, in the past, people wanted to protect the power of their state from other, larger states, but I don't see how that's relevant to the idea of modern electoral reform. It is, as you say, history, not present reality, and while a knowledge of history is helpful to understand how we arrived at the current situation, there is no reason we need to bound by how people once felt.

    52. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Perhaps it's because Clinton being elected wasn't unfair. The way you word your statement makes it sound like more people wanted bush than clinton, and more people wanted perot than clinton, which makes the person a couple comments down suggesting that you had no spin absolutely hilarious to me. Your statement is completely irrelevant because you cannot vote for "bush or perot", you have to vote for bush, or perot. See the difference? Clinton won fair and square. Bush not only did not get the majority vote, but he also did not get more votes than each of his competitors. In my book, that should make him not the president but this is America where the people do not select the president. The electoral college does that. Our voting is basically a service to the people who will decide our fate, because it tells them who we actually wanted, and how to spin everything we receive in order to control us.

      Paranoid? Yes. Unreasonably so? I don't think so. Hell, it's in the constitution.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    53. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Matrix14 · · Score: 1

      This is law. Part of the game is changing the rules. Why should the state elect the President, other than that's how the law currently is? It can be changed if we want, and that's what's under discussion.

    54. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Florida's list of non-legitimate voters is more interesting than the other way around. A number of people were placed on a list of people not allowed to vote normally used to prevent felons from influencing elections, even though they themselves had never comitted a felony.

      Felons not being allowed to vote raises an interesting point; It's possible to get a felony conviction for drug posession if you have over a certain amount, it's called intent to sell. Even if you have no intention of selling it, they don't have to prove you intended to sell it to get a conviction, just that you had enough to where you could be selling drugs. One wonders what effect that has on the potential, or lack thereof, for legalizing marijuana.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    55. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's only "whacky" if you assume that a majority of the popular vote ought to decide the election.

      Wrong. Get a dictionary and look up "majority". Then flip to "plurality".

      Plainly, the Founding Fathers thought otherwise.

      It's not clear-cut at all. We can never accurately know the beliefs of another person- we can only try to infer those beliefs from their actions. And if there existed important motives to act contrary to belief, then one must admit the question is not easy to solve.

      Would you also claim "Plainly, the Founding Fathers thought that slaves had 3/5ths the value of a man"? Of course you wouldn't.

      That was just a compromise offered to convince the slavery states to join up. Likewise, the creation of a Senate whose representation is independent from population was an enticement to attract smaller states into the federation.

      Appeal to tradition is rhetorically invalid.

      you'll find it surprisingly difficult

      No, it isn't. The burden is on advocates of unequal political privilege to defend their position. It is the inherently less tenable side, for that is the cause of elitists, royalists, and dictators.

    56. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Jimmy_B · · Score: 1

      You didn't follow the link, did you? Approval voting is just like regular (plurality) voting, except you can vote for more than one candidate. Condorcet is something else entirely. Approval is *much* simpler than instant runoff, both for the voters and for the poll managers.

    57. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Notice how I said a "better question".

      You are comparing apples and oranges. The two questions are completely separate from one another.

      Because ANY proposed voting system that lacks a trusted and verifiable way to collect and tally votes is truly a WASTE OF TIME.

      The system today isn't trusted or verifiable...

      The argument against the electoral college has been going on for 50 years. It's not new.

      No, but there is significant new evidence. Since Bush won with fewer total votes, inherently non-democratic nature of the Electoral College is fresh on everyones' minds.

    58. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Usagi_yo · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Nothing is wacky. Our founding fathers were truly ingenius.

      We are a Federal Republic which is a hybrid form of a Democracy. We lose sight of that in todays world of 15 second sound bites and bitter politics. The Executive branch represents the Union of States. This is not apparant to the casual eye .. but was the intent. It was very weakened with the passage of the 17th amendment.

      The 17th amendment dictated that Senators are elected by popular vote of the state, prior to that, they were appointed by the legislature or govenor.

      So, todays system of electorial college is basicaly proportionality by state. There never was and there is no such thing as "the popular vote". It's a novelty invented by the losers to chastise the winners or the winners to chastise the losers, however way it goes.

      The electoral college is the last vestige of our federal republic. I would hate get rid of it because if we did, we would quickly slip into fascism .. liberal or otherwise.

    59. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Moofie · · Score: 1

      George Washington said that political parties "...serves to distract the Public Councils, and enfeeble the Public Administration....agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one....against another....it opens the door to foreign influence and corruption...thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another."

      Excerpted from his farewell address. I think he's right on every single point.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    60. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by bnenning · · Score: 4, Informative

      Well, Wyatt, all the examples you cite show that the elected candidate as the one who got the most votes, so I'm not seeing your point.

      There have been 4 presidential elections including 2000 where the candidate who received a plurality of popular votes lost in the Electoral College. Arguing that the guy with the most popular votes "really" won is silly. Both candidates would have campaigned very differently if the election were decided by popular vote because swing states become far less important, and many voters would likely have made different decisions whether or not to vote for third parties.

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    61. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by PetWolverine · · Score: 1

      Simply by having a "winner-take-all" scenario for most things and requiring majorities in certain places, the 2 party system falls out pretty naturally.

      That wasn't known when the Constitution was written. Game theory, which proves your assertion, was developed much later.

      In general, it's very hard to prove intent for anything, let alone a historical question. On matters in which one is ignorant, I find it's best remain silent, read, and learn from the people who actually know something. (Note that, in the rest of this discussion, I generally don't count myself among those people.)

      --
      I found the meaning of life the other day, but I had write-only access.
    62. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1, Informative
      Wrong. Get a dictionary and look up "majority". Then flip to "plurality".

      Fine. "Plurality" then. The point stands.

      It's not clear-cut at all. We can never accurately know the beliefs of another person- we can only try to infer those beliefs from their actions. And if there existed important motives to act contrary to belief, then one must admit the question is not easy to solve.

      If the writers of the Constitution had wanted a system for direct popular election of the President, they'd have put one in place. They didn't. This isn't a case where their motivation was a mystery; it was spelled out. It's ironic that even though the framework of the process that was devised is still in place, much of the rationale for it has been subverted.

      Honestly, if you haven't even read The Federalist Papers your civics education is incomplete.

      Appeal to tradition is rhetorically invalid.

      No, it's logically invalid. Tradition is appealed to in rhetoric all the time, and it often works. However, since I didn't do that, I have no idea what you're talking about here.

      No, it isn't. The burden is on advocates of unequal political privilege to defend their position. It is the inherently less tenable side, for that is the cause of elitists, royalists, and dictators.

      The electoral college is about "unequal political privilege"? That's not something you can just state unsupported and expect to be taken seriously. You're plainly not taking the trouble to question your assumptions. Open your mind and make an honest attempt to understand our electoral system and why it was put into place before you venture to discuss this topic again.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    63. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Eskarel · · Score: 5, Insightful
      How can giving more weight to the votes of individuals possibly lead to fascism, unless by fascism you mean to imply any governmental system you dislike and which isn't blatantly communist(both fascist and communist have both been way too overused in the last 50 or so years).

      It is perhaps possible to come up with convincing arguments for maintaining the electoral college as it is, or for changing it without eliminating it entirely, but merely implying the alternative would be fascism is inadequate.

      The founding fathers were not particularly ingenious, they were a bunch of essentially aristocratic(though without formal title) land owners who wanted more say in local government and higher profits on their shipping. They weren't particularly bad men, but they weren't infallible saints either(see slave=3/5's of a person or the fact that they counted for population even when they couldnt' vote). The primary reason they created the electoral college rather than the popular vote(or so I've always been taught) is that, like aristocrats throughout time they feared that true democracy would result in mob rule(read poor people who might want to know why the founding fathers had so much money).

      In the end, they came up with a reasonable(this does not mean perfect) governmental system, which was, for the most part about as liberal as was possible at the time, but most of its provisions are simply English common law and experience codified into a single document.

      The US constitution is not the be all and end all of government and the constitution itself isn't why we have or do not have freedoms, the constitution is just a piece of paper, the Soviet Union had one too, one which in theory granted more rights to its citizenry than does ours, but that was only theory. Our constitution works because we have a general belief in the rights of the people, as do many other systems where those rights aren't written down.

    64. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slip into fascism? Oh yes, I suppose we would... just like all the other true democratic states out there.

      (?????????)

      ((Profit?))

    65. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's what the system has become, but was it originally designed that way?

      It absolutely was not. The evidence that the founders of the USA did not anticipate partisan polarity is right there in the Constitution itself. Just look at how the method used to elect the Vice-President has changed throughout history.

      Originally, whoever came in 2nd-place in the Presidential election became vice-President. Obviously, that would lead to hilarious and deadly consequences today- just imagine if Al Gore had served a 3rd term as VP under Bush! In 1804, the reality of parties became apparent, and the choice of VP was linked to the president.

    66. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by buttahead · · Score: 1

      fuck that. when all racers are equally prepared the best one will win.

      we have "lots" of choices, but only two have enough financing to become public enough for the average joe to see. no election funding any longer! every party should be given equal amounts to "advertise" to the public.

    67. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by jesterzog · · Score: 1

      To me it seems that rather than focus on whether or not a two party system is democratic (or even if the US system is a real democracy as others have pointed out), it would be much more useful to focus on the point that third party candidates simply have no realistic chance in the current system, consequently denying voters of that much more choice.

      Many people can't vote for the candidate they really want without being accused of throwing away their vote and possibly dividing the vote count for a main candidate who they may still consider to be the lesser of two evils. Consequently, many people are voting primarily to try and keep someone out rather than to vote someone in.

      Even though the President is not directly responsible for changing the system, having a current President showing general support for such a change would likely generate some momentum for change. So it'd be very interesting to know what the candidates' attitudes are towards reforming the system so that votes for third parties aren't seen as destructive or wasted votes.

      DIsclaimer: I'm not actually a US citizen myself, but I find the whole process very interesting to watch. We've recently undergone some similar reform in New Zealand (admittedly a smaller scale) that's moved things away from a two party system, and it seems to be working quite nicely.

    68. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by MsGeek · · Score: 2, Funny

      OK, so is having only Florida decide the election any better?

      Sign me:
      Pissed off Californian

      --
      Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
    69. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If the writers of the Constitution had wanted a system for direct popular election of the President, they'd have put one in place. They didn't.

      I already went over how inclusion in the Consitution doesn't prove it was considered ideal. They were practicing pragmatism. The desire was for a fair system- but creating fairness on a bed of injustice means that some people will lose power and refuse the change. To mollify those people, concessions were made.

      No serious historian thinks the means of apportioning Senators was anything but a sop to Rhode Island and its ilk.

      This isn't a case where their motivation was a mystery; it was spelled out.

      Maybe it was written someplace, but not in the Federalist Papers. You are conflating directness and proportionality. That paper is primarily about the mechanical methods of conducting a vote, which was of import back then, as a single vote spanning the distance from Massachusetts to Georgia was an unprecedented concept.

      Fewer than 6 words of the Federalist Papers have any bearing to the topic under discussion, and they are parenthetical. (They are in the 8th paragraph, by the way).

      The electoral college is about "unequal political privilege"? That's not something you can just state unsupported and expect to be taken seriously

      Do you need support for claims like "69 is less than 87"? Because that's the degree of self-evidence we're dealing with here. Or would you care to deny that in the current system, a citizen of Illinois has more Presidential voting power than one from Utah?

    70. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by melgeroth · · Score: 1

      Agreed!

      To the grandparent, perhaps you should stop telling us to "open our minds" as if we haven't considered what you're saying and rejected it with intelligent thought? True state democracy is also a very valid alternative to the electoral college.

      The idea of weighting a person's vote based on his geographical location is outdated. Saying a person in a small state would have no influence on the vote is the same as saying that you have no influence on the vote of your state's elector. Personally I hold no affinity to my state, and I would rather we had a *fair* voting system set up (weighting and instant run offs included).

    71. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Lordcheez · · Score: 0, Troll

      Unlike the first responder, I do agree that the founding fathers, if not ingenious, were at least creative. They had to deal with a series of states so disjointed that when Jefferson went to France to set up trade as first secretary of state, France wouldn't accept him until the other tweleve delagates arrived. Their response was easy and logical, make sure a state gets all the possible credit where credit should go, even if people couldn't get out and vote. This was especially important in a time where voting wasn't fair, i.e. public votes based on weights in barrels, corrupt counting practices, and off course a travel time of weeks, especially since the elections were in the winter. The best solution was the all or nothing idea of the electoral college. This idea means that one no longer votes for a President, but merely a group of electors. This tends to get the same point across, with only four exceptions in 54 elections and those were only 1 state per election, it creates the fairest system possible at the time. Next, I want to correct some of the random, and seemingly uneducated quips in hopes of staving off ignorance. First the 17th Amendment was passed by 2/3 the senate and 3/4 of the states because it moved us closer to a democracy, giving the people more say. Remember democracy, like what the middle east is lucky enough to have now .Your line about the Executive branch is odd at best. It represents the Union of States, duh, it is very obvious, that is why the President gives the state of the Union, he represents it. Next, according to Wiki... The word fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that * exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual, * uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition, * engages in severe economic and social regimentation, and * espouses nationalism and sometimes racism (ethnic nationalism). How does that relate to a republic unless you confused republican with republic, then yes Mussolini was in fact conservative. Finally, your loser line, is obviously aimed at Gore, this has happened before and will happen again, even in this election all the polls are based on populare vote, if it was important why would major news groups still run them. In summary, you are a math major.

    72. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by GenSolo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, it isn't. The burden is on advocates of unequal political privilege to defend their position.
      No, the burden is on advocates of change to promote their position and convince others to change from the status quo. Someone defending the status quo simply has to point out flaws in the challenger's argument and convince others not to accept the proposal. Therefore, please explain to us why the President should be elected by a majority -- or plurality, your choice if you can defend it -- of the popular vote.

    73. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by JustOK · · Score: 1

      Why should we change it just because we can? Is there a valid reason to change it? Do you know why it is the way it is? If you don't understand why it is setup this way, how do you know your way is better? Or is it just change for change sake? Do you still torture animals for pleasure? Its like that. Part of the game is also keeping rules that work.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    74. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      we would quickly slip into fascism .. liberal or otherwise.
      What the hell is "liberal facism" supposed to be? Do you even know what the word "liberal" means? Or, for that matter, the word "fascist"?
    75. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Temsi · · Score: 3, Interesting

      OK, first of all...
      The electoral system was not chosen because it ensured a balance between the populous states and the rural states. It was in fact originally created to benefit slaveowners. A slave, while not allowed to vote, counted as 3/5th a person, and thus that state got more electoral votes, which of course meant that the vote of a slaveowner carried more weight than the vote of the average person. Which is why there were so many Presidents from Southern states back in the day.

      Second. It's not very difficult building a case for why a president should be chosen by a simple majority. In fact, it's surprisingly easy.
      The president is the head of the Union. He's the representative of this country as a whole, not some groups more than others.
      Therefore, it makes perfect sense that the majority of the voters in this country be the ones to make the decision as to who that person is.

      --
      -- This sig for rent.
    76. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Founding Fathers pick an Electorial System because communication was quite limited back then and they thought a small group (Electorial Reps) might be better informed then a bunch of rural farmers far away from cities and newspapers and such. Obviously, this reasoning is dated in our age.

    77. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by killjoe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "if the election were decided by popular vote because swing states become far less important,"

      Why shouldn't they be less important? Why should ohio or missouri be more important then NY or California. Both NY and California contribute more to this country just about all other states combined both economically and culturally.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    78. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by 0m3gaMan · · Score: 1

      Well said.

      I recall reading a quote somewhere, years ago:

      "Democracy in it's purest form is nothing but mob rule."

      Kudos to the framers of the Constitution for their genious in creating the electoral college.

    79. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Gore had a plurality of the popular vote and probably would have won any of the alternative methods like IRV, Condorcet, or PR.

      Not quite. If there had been any other voting system in place, then the Republican party wouldn't have selected Bush. McCain would've been on the national ballot, and he'd definitely have beaten Bush, and probably Gore too.

      The parties wouldn't even need primaries if we had a more flexible voting system. They'd have no incentive not to run Dean and Kerry and Edwards and everyone else.

    80. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 0

      the burden is on advocates of change

      That's appeal to tradition, which I already said is invalid. The burden of proof falls on him with the outwardly more complex or less plausible argument.

      My argument is simple: equal people should have equal power.

      If you believe that's wrong, and that people should actually have unequal power, then you have the less-intuitive position, and must defend it.

      Or, from another perspective, whoever wants to change someone's mind always has the burden of proof. Since the anti-equality people are the latecomers to this thread, it falls to them to advocate their own position. But they haven't; they

    81. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      I'd prefer to see it phrased "proportianal voting system". that includes approval, ranked, condorcet, party list

      No. First off, "proportianal" is not a word.
      Secondly, "proportional representation" is a completely separate question from election methods. Changes to election methods will only matter as the election is going on (or as candidates are planning for elections, etc). Going to proportional representation would impact the daily running of government even long after the inaugerations are done.

    82. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Wah · · Score: 1

      Also, would you support an Amendment to the Constitution that declares 'Election Day' a National Holiday? Many voters find that working two or three jobs to make ends meet makes it difficult to take the time and educate themselves about all the candidates, much less find the time to do the actual voting. A day of quiet reflection and unrushed voting could do us a world of good, and besides, who doesn't like a candidate that adds more vacations to the year?

      The bad people, that's who.

      --
      +&x
    83. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by maop · · Score: 1

      How was the two party issue by design? Explain this one to me. As I understand it, there is no inbuilt system of "Political Parties" in the US system the way there is in various other systems.

      It is a two party system because of bad design. No run-off means that it encourages a two party system. If you get one vote it is an implicit 2-person ranking: the person you don't vote for is ranked second. If you get two choices that it could support a 3-party system: you can rank up to three candidates. Maybe the best voting system is to have an infinite or at least N-person voting system were N is large. Then it would be fair for N+1 parties to participate. You could call it a N-candidate instant run-off.

    84. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by trick-knee · · Score: 1

      > Arguing that the guy with the most popular votes "really" won is silly.

      I wasn't arguing that at all. I was simply pointing out that the parent hadn't included a significant example that followed the pattern of his other examples. And Y2K was more to the point of this thread.

      That is, he showed three examples in which the winner in the electoral college did not win more than 50% of the popular vote. I pointed out that Y2K was another example of that.

      All his examples had the electoral winner also the popular winner, which was not the case in Y2K. The original question in this thread included this:

      > The current presidential system seems to have several shortcomings,
      > including two-party duopoly and the ability to win the Election even
      > after losing the popular vote.

      And so I thought that the last USA election was an example that is pertinent and significantly missing in Wyatt Earp's post.

    85. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Once a significant number of states embrace the idea, then we can reasonably talk about making a sweeping constitutional amendment that has a prayer of being passed and quickly ratified.

      Wrong. The only feasible way to make this change is as an Amendment. We CANNOT expect states to voluntarily do it to themselves first.

      Just look at California, for the strongest example. 35 electoral votes, which always go Democrat, and a solidly Democrat legislature. If CA changed to proportional allocation, then instead of giving the Democratic nominee 35 votes, he'd only get 20. That's equivalent to 30 points shifting over- which in terms of the current campaign, would be absolutely fatal for Kerry.

      Or you could make the same argument regarding Texas and Republicans. Given that states are controlled (at least marginally) by one party or the other, any state deciding to switch to proportional allocation will be hurting it's own dominant party on the national level.

      In conclusion, switching to proportional allocation means voluntarily giving up power. We can't expect anyone to do this, unless they were assured that everyone else would be making the same change at the same time. CA and TX might agree to a universal amendment, but they would never implement it piecewise.

    86. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1
      To the grandparent, perhaps you should stop telling us to "open our minds" as if we haven't considered what you're saying and rejected it with intelligent thought?

      I'd love to, as soon as I see some evidence of it. So far, all I've been presented with is dogma. You've given me both dogma and an anecdote, which is little better. I'm asking you to think critically.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    87. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by DLR · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's very simple, and has been discussed numerous times since 2000. If we elect the President by a simple plurality (or majority) then Presidential candidates will simply spend huge amounts of money in a few population dense markets. Your vote won't count unless you live in the North East, Los Angeles, and a few other places. And as a side effect the views of rural America won't be represented at all, they might as well not even vote. So if disenfranchising 40% or more of the population is your goal, by all means eleminate the Electoral College.

      --
      "Like fire and fusion, government is a dangerous servant and a terrible master."~RAH
    88. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by TheBot · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Hi everyone, This is an emergency alert for everyone who took part in the Save Betamax call-in day: Today, Orrin Hatch will be trying to line up enough votes to get the INDUCE Act (S. 2560) through to the Senate floor. Members of the Senate Judiciary Committee need to hear from you right now. At the bottom of this message is a list of Senators to call. Please take the time to call two of them, before 5 PM EST today. The bill is scheduled for mark-up on Thursday, so it's very important that you make these calls today. We need to stop this bill, and we can. Because the INDUCE Act is such a radical departure from two decades of tech policy (set in place by the Betamax decision), a truly unprecedented coalition has formed to stop it. Heavyweights of the technology and electronics sectors are joining public interest groups in fighting hard against the extremely well-connected entertainment industry lobbies (the RIAA and MPAA). Right now there's something of a stalemate-- insiders all say that INDUCE has a 50/50 shot at becoming law. That's why it's extremely important that Senators hear what you have to say. This email is going out to the over 5,000 people who participated in the Save Betamax call-in day. Tomorrow (Wednesday) the EFF will be running a call-in day for their members, using the software we made for Save Betamax. In just two days Senators could be hearing from tens of thousands of constituents. But we need you to make these phone calls, and spread the word (i.e. on your blog, or in an email to friends) that right now is the time to act. SENATORS TO CALL Please call two of these Senators, and if you have time feel free to make more calls. Make sure to look down the list to see if any Senators represent your state. Every phone call counts, but calls from constituents will carry more weight, so make sure to let them know if you're a constituent. Also, the RIAA likes to pretend that all musicians support their breed of copyright extremism. We know that's not true, so if you're a musician make sure to mention that as well. Orrin Hatch UTAH 202-224-5251 Patrick Leahy VERMONT 202-224-4242 Charles E. Grassley IOWA 202.224.3744 Edward M. Kennedy MASSACHUSETTS 202-224-4543 Arlen Specter PENNSYLVANIA 202-224-4254 Joseph R. Biden, Jr. DELAWARE 202-224-5042 Jon Kyl 202) 224-4521 ARIZONA Herbert Kohl WISCONSIN (202) 224-5653 Mike DeWine OHIO (202) 224-2315 Dianne Feinstein CALIFORNIA 202-224-3841 Jeff Sessions ALABAMA 202) 224-4124 Russell D. Feingold WISCONSIN 202/224-5323 Lindsey Graham SOUTH CAROLINA (202) 224-5972 Charles E. Schumer NEW YORK 202-224-6542 Larry Craig IDAHO 202/224-2752 Richard J. Durbin ILLINOIS 202) 224-2152 Saxby Chambliss GEORGIA (202) 224-3521 John Edwards NORTH CAROLINA (202) 224-3154 John Cornyn TEXAS 202-224-2934 NOTES FOR YOUR CALL On the new INDUCE Act drafts: The INDUCE Act has already been through several revisions, as Hatch et al. attempt to appease some of their most powerful opponents. But none of these revisions cut it; all of them make industries liable for infringement they don't commit or even profit from, and all of them would give the entertainment industry veto power over new technology (say, the wireless iPod). For more information on the latest draft, see the following article in Wired: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,65084,00 .html?tw=wn_tophead_2 On Republicans and Democrats: Like many tech law issues, this one cuts across party lines (most powerful members of both parties are on the wrong side). If you're calling Republican Senators, emphasize that this legislation would create a huge new legal liability (which means bogus litigation) against American high tech companies. Tell them that the Heritage Foundation and the American Conservative Union both oppose the bill. And check out an ACU flyer here: http://www.boingboing.net/images/acu-inducead-fina l.pdf If you're calling Democrats, emphasize that the Betamax decision was sound policy and that the entertainment compan

    89. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by nickos · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Plainly, the Founding Fathers thought otherwise."

      Why are the Founding Fathers always viewed as infallible? Is is not possible that they could have made mistakes? Afterall how could they have foreseen how politics and society would change by the 21st century?

    90. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They may have. Now show that they did, and that this is one of those cases. No one is claiming they are infallible, just that they seemed to have a pretty good understanding of this, and that we should at least disprove their theory before discarding it.

    91. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 3, Interesting
      He's the representative of this country as a whole, not some groups more than others.
      Therefore, it makes perfect sense that the majority of the voters in this country be the ones to make the decision as to who that person is.

      This is a non-sequitur, but let's pretend it isn't for a moment.

      The system for electing the President has been subverted by the practise of not placing the electors' names on the ballot, but those of the Presidential candidates themselves. Many inattentive voters in the 2000 election were sincerely surprised to discover that a President can be elected without receiving the highest number of popular votes. Candidates bring their campaigns directly to the people, and so do nothing to promote understanding of the Constitutionally mandated system. In effect, although the President isn't chosen by popular vote, the pre-election activity is carried out almost exactly as if he were.

      Dirty campaign tactics, dirty money, special interest groups, interference from foreign governments -- we have, or have had by now, all this as a result. It was all foreseen by the authors of the Constitution, and the Electoral College was instituted in an attempt to avoid it in the hopes they would, with some rationality, choose based on the merity of a candidate and not because of political affiliation or any like consideration. Even the fact that the Electors meet in their respective states and not all in the same place is to forestall any one group from exerting an undue amount of political influence over them, or politicking among them with some states banding together against others.

      Seeing as how all the above describes most of what is wrong with the system as it exists today, how would going to a direct popular vote fix that? Would it not make more sense to go back to something closer to the Constitutional design? Might we then avoid the kind of media circus that now attends every Presidential campaign and distracts the electorate from the real issues and qualifications of the candidates? How could we possibly fix any of this with a direct popular vote? (Much of it is already illegal, but it happens anyway, so passing more laws won't fix matters. We can't pass laws much more restrictive and still preserve our 1st Amendment rights of free speech.)

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    92. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The electoral system was not chosen because it ensured a balance between the populous states and the rural states. It was in fact originally created to benefit slaveowners.

      News flash -- slave owners lived in rural states. And while it is possible to choose the system to benefit slave owners, rather than to benefit rural states, I think it's presumptious of you to claim to distinguish between two purposes with the same practical result.

      Second, as was mentioned before, the constitution does not call for a vote to choose the members of the electoral college. The delegates are selected by whatever laws the state sees fit, and may vote in whatever ways their state law allows. The 3/5 provisions you get all excited about comes from Article 1, Section 2 -- Apportionment of Representatives and direct Taxes. This has nothing whatever to do with the electoral college.

      So, Mr. Constitutional Law Expert Man, have anything else to whine about without say, reading the fsck'n law that you're whing about?

    93. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1
      Fewer than 6 words of the Federalist Papers have any bearing to the topic under discussion, and they are parenthetical. (They are in the 8th paragraph, by the way).

      You cannot have read that paper thoroughly, or having read it you have not understood it. The entire thing was about the rationale for the indirect method of electing the President, from the beginning until the last two paragraphs which are devoted to the rationale for electing a Vice President. I know late 18th century prose can be a tad opaque, but if you're going to take as strident a tone as you're taking, you should really know better what you're talking about.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    94. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you're going to insist that direct popular vote is better, you need to demonstrate why. You need to demonstrate why this would be a better system than the one in place. To do this you need to understand what the rationale was for the current system and demonstrate why that rationale no longer applies. That is has been largely subverted, and we have the kind of circus we get surrounding every Presidential election, is actually a good argument for returning to a more exact version of it. The authors of the Consitution were amazingly prescient in some ways.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    95. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by jimi+the+hippie · · Score: 1
      We are a Federal Republic which is a hybrid form of a Democracy. We lose sight of that in todays world of 15 second sound bites and bitter politics. The Executive branch represents the Union of States. This is not apparant to the casual eye .. but was the intent. It was very weakened with the passage of the 17th amendment. The 17th amendment dictated that Senators are elected by popular vote of the state, prior to that, they were appointed by the legislature or govenor.
      Actually, this country was _founded_ as a confederacy, NOT a federal republic. That is why we had Senators appointed by states. The states were to be seperate entities, and they wanted to make sure that their interests were properly represented. They could have been easily overlooked if they had proportional representation. However, this distinction is practically nonexistant today. The states now hold very little relative power. That's not only because they have lost some of their rights, but also it's because the Federal government has gained so much power. The founding fathers never meant for the national governement to have such far reaching powers, yet many people now consider that the only possibility.
    96. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 4, Insightful
      For the sake of discussion, I will ignore the fact that the current USA system actually increases the power of high-population areas, and instead use the simplifying interpretation that rural states get a small advantage.

      Your vote won't count unless you live in the North East, Los Angeles, and a few other places

      Wrong. Your vote would count just as much as anyone else's did- there just happen to be more people in those places.

      Do you know why $10 from me buys just as much as $10 from Bill Gates?

      And as a side effect the views of rural America won't be represented at all,

      So you claim that rural people deserve more power than city people? Why is that? Does the country lifestyle make them inherently more moral?

      Arguments like yours are terribly vulnerable to parody:

      Your vote won't count unless you live in the North East, Los Angeles, and a few other places. And as a side effect the views of rural America won't be represented at all
      • Your vote won't count unless you're a Christian, Muslim, Jew, or a few other religions. The views of Wiccan Americans won't be represented at all.
      • Your vote won't count unless you're white, black, or maybe hispanic. The views of Asian-Americans won't be represented at all.
      • Your vote won't count unless you're heterosexual, or maybe abstinent. The views of homosexual Americans won't be represented at all.
      • Your vote won't count unless you're an moron, idiot, imbecile, or some other kind of retard. The views of intelligent Americans won't be represented at all.

      See the pattern? You need to explain why one kind of minority deserves a boost to it's power, but not any of those others.

      So if disenfranchising 40% or more of the population is your goal

      Only 40%? The existing system has disenfranchised the 75% of voters who don't live in swing states, so that'll be an improvement.

      Of course, according to your argument, 49% of the population is ALWAYS disenfranchised by the other 51%. From one point of view, that is true- but still meaningless.
    97. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Usagi_yo · · Score: 1, Insightful
      There is a misconception that Fascism is a trait of conservatives. Philisolophicaly, a "Dictator" so often used as a criteria for Fascism doesn't have to extend and include an individual. He can be a group of like minded individuals I.E a "Political Party", or a strong overbearing "Political Movement". When I listen to certain Liberal Senators and Liberal Party Leaders -- I'm certainly struck with the thought: The are Fascist. I am libertarian with conservative streak BTW. I would be a Democrat, if the Democrat party actualy existed. It died in 1964.

      If you read the Federalist papers, you would conclude that our founding fathers were more then simple wealthy land owners. Most abhored nobility and actualy outlawed it. .. Read the Constitution and amendments. At worst, they were philosophers. Though I would contend that they actualy transcended philosophers and were inspired by Deism. Many were Deists.

      Of course they had the foibles. The 3/5's slave rule, and the Primary reason wasn't because of mob rule, but as one respondant put it, because voting took so darn long and we had alot of territory to cover. But they understood the side affects as well, as cleary pointed out in their writings.

      To the person who scoffed at the idea of the 17th amendment: It wouldn't be so bad if Senators were limited to campaign contributions from individual residents who actualy live in the state. But as today goes, some Senators actualy get more campaign support from large states like California or New york, then they do their own state. how many Senators has California funded -- many.

    98. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by ca1v1n · · Score: 1

      Approval voting rewards negative campaigning. You end up much better off if the voters can't stand anyone but you. Instant runoff voting rewards positive campaigning, because negative campaigning only helps at all if you successfully discredit every last one of your opponents, and the cost of bashing all of them generally exceeds the cost of actually telling the voters why they should vote for you. Almost everyone agrees that more positive campaigning and less negative campaigning is good for democracy, and is thus good. Electronic voting systems can make instant run-off voting really easy to implement. The convenient thing about it is that if people have a hard time grasping the concept, they can just vote in the first round. Most people vote for only one of two parties, and third party supporters would be especially likely to be aware of how to support their candidate without withdrawing support for the person most likely to beat out the guy they really hate. The complexity isn't really such a big deal, and the benefits are tremendous.

    99. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by rjamestaylor · · Score: 1
      You don't get the Electoral College, I think, by reading your post. Popular vote is near-to irrelevant; what matters is the EC.


      All states happen to use a system of populous voting to determine their own delegates for the EC, but it is the EC that decides the election -- or Congress in case of a tie, and finally the Supreme Court (BTW, the Supreme Court did not decide the 2000 election; it overturned the Florida Supreme Court's violation of its own election laws; this had the effect of sealing the last official vote tally and Bush won by ~530 votes, sending the Replubican delegates to the EC) as ultimate court of any dispute. (And, yes, if Gore/Boies won the court fight and had their way Bush would still have won the vote -- Gore wasn't interested in re-counting all the counties, only the most Democratic; it was Bush that mentioned recounting all the votes, including the overseas votes by servicemen and servicewomen -- and if all the counties were recounted with a liberal ruling on "voter intent" some news organizations who did the count say Gore would have won; but that scenario was never on the table and is only interesting as a "hmmm..." exercise).

      --
      -- @rjamestaylor on Ello
    100. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      The entire thing was about the rationale for the indirect method of electing the President

      Yes, that's exactly what it is. But we're not talking about INDIRECT elections- the topic here is NONPROPORTIONAL electoral power. Specificially, why should it be possible for someone with more citizens voting for him than anyone else to lose the election? Why should all the electoral votes from a state go to just one candidate? And why should states get 2 votes added to their electoral college votes, independent of their population?

      It would be entirely possible to continue having indirect, electoral college elections, while drastically reducing the probability that the loser of the popular vote could become president.

      You pointed to the Federalist Papers somehow supporting that the justice of the lesser number of total votes winning the election. I'm aware of a few arguments in favor of that idea- some of them even makes a little sense- but the FP doesn't contain any of those.

      So if you could point out a few lines that you feel directly support your position, it'd be quite nice. (Feel free to elide the colonialist legalese)

      you should really know better what you're talking about

      That's a good idea, you should give it a try! Although, I do understand it can be tough to remember what the topic is when you're posting in 5 different sub-threads at once.

    101. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by antic · · Score: 1


      I think everyone's getting off track here. The strength in this question concerns the opportunity to provide for more than the duopoly. As has proven evident, throwing in something about the popular vote just drags it off track.

      I really like the preferential system we have in Australia. I can vote for an independent or smaller party (Democrats, Greens, Family First, etc) and still direct my preference to either of the main parties (Labor, Liberal) without fear of my vote being "wasted". i.e., a vote for Nader would only be a vote for Bush if you preferenced Bush after Nader and so on.

      --
      'Thats they exact same thing a banana wrench monkey.'
    102. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by say · · Score: 1

      But this illustrates a great problem in the US electoral college system! Say that there are two relatively similar conservative candidates, and one relatively liberal candidate, and say that the two first have 30% support each, while the latter has 40%.

      If two candidates are too similar, their votes will spread out between them and the liberal candidate would "win it all", even though the politics of the two first candidates has got 60% popular support (even in the state).

      --
      Roses are #FF0000, violets are #0000FF, all my base are belong to you
    103. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      The system for electing the President has been subverted by the practise of not placing the electors' names on the ballot, but those of the Presidential candidates themselves

      Printing ballots with the elector's names would be
      (a) dishonest, because it implies they have ANY power beyond saying "Aye" to the man (or party) they were sworn to, when they really don't.
      (b) waste a lot of paper, because the DNC and GOP would need to hand out reference-sheet listing their electors outside every polling spot.
      (c) make "exit polls" more reliable, because the media could just count the color of each pamphlet voters grab on the way in. (Voters could obfuscate their choice by taking both hint-sheets, but that'd be anti-environmental)

      avoid it in the hopes they would, with some rationality, choose based on the merity of a candidate and not because of political affiliation or any like consideration.

      You keep expounding the remarkable forsight of the "Founding Fathers"... but to assume for one minute that the electors would be anything but pawns serving one interest or the other is not just ignorant, but unimaginative.

      How could we possibly fix any of this with a direct popular vote?

      Again, you're flying far away from the topic. As a reminder, that topic is: "Why is it good for the candidate with the most votes to loose the election?" Most of your voluminous verbiage relates to entirely separate problems.

      These people aren't trying to banish the "media circus" from political coverage- they're just looking out for themselves, and trying to maximize the power of their own vote. The plurality was disappointed to lose to a smaller number of Bush voters, and became inclined to seek a change.

      PS. Spelling of "loose" intentional, per standards of Simplified Internet English.

    104. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      If the writers of the Constitution had wanted a system for direct popular election of the President, they'd have put one in place. They didn't. This isn't a case where their motivation was a mystery; it was spelled out.

      And if you actually click on the above link to read Federalist Papers #68, you'll find that the present procedure bears no relation to the procedure described therein. That procedure provided for direct election of the members of the Electoral College. In other words, you didn't vote for Bush or Kerry, you voted for a bunch of delegates, by name. Those delegates then met, considered the candidates, and voted according to their judgement, not according to what the people who elected them wanted. The idea was that the average voter doesn't really know the candidates well enough (probably still true), and elects someone trustworthy who does. That's not what happens today.

      The intended procedure can be criticized, but at least it makes more sense than the present charade, where all the delegates from a big state that votes 51%-49% can be told to vote for one candidate. I don't know how to describe the present mess, but it sure has little to do with democracy.

    105. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So far, all I've been presented with is dogma.

      Yes, we can infer that, because that's all your posts contain.

      There was a very simple question asked: "Why is it better if the candidate with the most votes can lose the election?". You might TRY to answer that.

      To the extent your lengthy digressions have addressed that topic at all, they've taken the following structure:
      1. The Founding Fathers were really smart.
      2. Way smarter than any of you jokers.
      3. They set up the Constitution to work this way.
      4. Therefore, it's best this way.
      5. Now be quiet unless you can refute these 3 totally separate issues that I care about.

      Holes in that "reasoning" are almost too apparent to bear mentioning, which is prehaps why we haven't said very much about them.

      Most of the documents and rationalizations you provided have ignored the fact that states can choose the assignment of electors however they wish. Indeed, it seems quite plausible that the "Founders" did not consider the implications of that permission- because what arose is a form of Tryanny of the Majority, taking place in each of the 50 states upon every election.

      Certainly, Texas COULD divide its electors proportionally, and send out 20 Bush supporters alongside 14 of Kerry's men. But as Republicans have the majority power, they won't do this. The rights of the minority Texan Democrats are trampled by the dominant GOP. (The reverse problem happens to the Massachusett GOP)

      One might argue that this inequity is the fault of the states... but one would be wrong. The circumstance was the result of systems created by the USA Constitution, and only that Constitution has the power to alter them.

    106. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      it was put in place to keep states like New york from OWNING the elections. This is no-longer the case. Back then it was easily possible for you to sway an entire state of voters, communication outside your town was uncommon let alone outside your state, so telling everyone in a advertising campain that Candidate Rutheford is a lying cheating horse theif could have HUGE effect in a state like new york at that time.

      today, it has a net-zero effect and a popular vote COULD work just fine.

      I think a hybrid of both needs to be put in place. an Electorial college that CAN NOT go against it's district's choice.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    107. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Secondly, the US is not a democracy. It is a constitutional republic.

      Please quit spewing this garbage! A republic is a representative democracy.

    108. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by ostiguy · · Score: 1

      Plurality based single electee per district systems seem to have a high tendency for establishing 2 party systems. Systems with proportional representation tend to support a wider variety of parties.

    109. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by ynohoo · · Score: 1

      The electoral college is about "unequal political privilege"?

      Did you vote for them? No? Then yes, it is about unequal political privilege. Ditto the president they appoint.

    110. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anguo · · Score: 1
      Why only IRV and Proportional representation? These are the election methods proposed by the Green Party

      IRV is certainly not the best solution.

      For other alternatives such as Approval and Condorcet, look here.

      Also, you don't need to wait for Kerry/Bush to get elected to cast a Condorcet or Approval ballot!.

      --
      http://www.masquilier.org/republic/election/ Condorcet, Plurality voting and alternative voting enabled bulletin board.
    111. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by ynohoo · · Score: 1

      The President has way too much power for this process to be in the hands of anybody except the voter. Anything less is far more susceptible to corrupution.

    112. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by ZaMoose · · Score: 1

      Let me say, right now, that I think this is plainly wrong, particularly under our representative form of government.

      We do not exist in a nation where each person's vote is considered equal, since we vote for representatives who then go to D.C. and (supposedly) advocate for those of us back home. In this system, voters in Montana have far more "clout per vote" than those in California, particularly when it comes to the Senate, which is how the Founding Fathers intended it. The House was a sop to the dense areas of population, the Senate to the smaller, less populous ones. This may have been seen as a compromise at the time, but it's proved its worth over the years.

      The "equal vote" la-la-land you advocate is a pipe dream, at least until I can cast my vote against Tom Daschle (while living in PA), as, until that point, South Dakotans' votes will have far more clout than mine.

      --
      I wish I had a kryptonite cross, because then you could keep Dracula and Superman away.
    113. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by bfischer · · Score: 1

      How is it "simplified english" when you add extra letters? Wouldn't less letters be simpler?

    114. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      If the writers of the Constitution had wanted a system for direct popular election of the President, they'd have put one in place. They didn't. This isn't a case where their motivation was a mystery; it was spelled out. It's ironic that even though the framework of the process that was devised is still in place, much of the rationale for it has been subverted.

      Yeah, well, our beloved founding fathers also believed that if you weren't a white, land-owning male, you weren't entitled to a vote in the first place. See, the Average Person is too stupid to have such a great responsibility as voting, so the Educated Elite must do this for them.

      The fact is that the founding fathers were still heavily influenced by a feudalist history. We have a president because they believed that we needed a figurehead king.

      While this was terribly elitist of them, in itself it wasn't obscenely unfair, because originally, only wealthy white males paid taxes[1]. Technically, they were in accordance with the constitution: taxation with representation. However, to pay for the civil war, Congress imposed the first income tax, which they only collected for seven years. In 1913, the Constitution was ammended to allow Congress to tax income however they wanted to, and that's where we are today.

      One could argue that since everybody is taxed, they should have have equal representation, which they don't currently. The electoral college was created because it took weeks to get across the United States, and it made sense to elect someone to speak for you and send him to the conventions and elections, and choose the best candidate. Today, the excuse electoral college supporters provide is that the electoral college prevents candidates from focusing their campaigning attention on heavily populated areas. Both of these reasons are absurd; the first because it is obvious that the original reason is now no longer valid, and the second because it just isn't true. Bush has visited Washington state something like twice during this campaign; he's visited Ohio -- what, 17 times already? The electoral college creates just as much imbalance as having no electoral college would.

      However, the electoral college would still be workable (although, you have to ask "why bother?") if the electoral votes were assigned proportionally. Currently, if you win one state, you win all of the electoral votes, and there is no excuse for this than stupidity. It aggrevates the disenfranchisement of voters, and enforces the two-party system that we suffer under today -- although, as long as we have first-past-the-post voting in the US, we're going to have the worst democratic election system in the world.

      Ironically, even a dictatorship is more fair to voters than the US election system. In a dictatorship, the one person who votes gets what s/he wants 100% of the time. In the USA, as proven in two elections in the past couple of decades, the majority of Americans have not gotten the president that they voted for, and a significant minority feel obligated to vote for "the lesser of two evils", because a vote for a third party is a wasted vote.

      [1] This is a simplification. There were taxes on goods -- mostly sin taxes, like alcohol, tobacco, sugar, and slaves -- and these were paid primarily by the wealthy.

    115. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by front · · Score: 1

      Yeah!

      +1 on that post!

      cheers

      front

    116. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The primary reason for the electoral college is as follows: it prevents the disenfranchisement of anyone who does not live in a metropolitan area. How times have the presidential candidates visited the "battleground states"? How many porkbarrel projects have gone to these states within the past four years? Now suppose that instead of a handful of states, the only things of concern to candidates were the votes of LA, DC, NYC, SF, Miami, etc--a handful of CITIES. Things would quickly get shitty for everyone else, because their votes wouldn't matter--they wouldn't be needed to win the "popular vote." Most calls for electoral college reform are based on an ignorance of political science. State-level reform, sure--look at Maine's system--but national abolition? Are you kidding?

    117. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by xerid · · Score: 1

      Don't ever ask a Yes/No question. These are the easiest to dodge.

    118. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by SharkJumper · · Score: 1

      I don't know if this has been mentioned, but there is a great article on the electoral college right on the Federal Election Commission's website. I believe it gives a pretty fair look at the electoral college, taking into account its strengths and weaknesses. You can find a link to the PDF file (among other things) on this page. Look for "A Brief History of the Electoral College."

      SharkJumper

    119. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Valegor · · Score: 1

      "The current presidential system seems to have several shortcomings, including two-party duopoly and the ability to win the Election even after losing the popular vote" While I agree that the duopoly is an issue(I'm independant and hate both parties equally) the ability to win while still losing the popular vote is not. If a candidate could win based on popular vote New York and California(VERY liberal states) would have far too much say in determining our President based on thier population. Under that system people in the midwest might as well not even vote. That part of the voting process is not broken, but if someone tries to fix it then it won't take long for it to be so.

    120. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by KermodeBear · · Score: 1

      We don't live in a pure democracy. We live in a republic. Just as pure "Everybody for everybody" (communism) doesn't work, "Everybody for himself" (democracy) doesn't work too well either. In a pure democracy, the citizens would have to vote on every single thing. Quite honestly, I would rather spend the time playing with my dogs instead of going through hundreds of pages or tax codes, for example. A republic is more efficient, and IN THEORY it allows a small segment of the population to make well informed, well intentioned decisions for the rest of the society, so that everyone else can go about doing other necessary things - like playing with dogs.

      --
      Love sees no species.
    121. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Valegor · · Score: 1

      "Why should all the electoral votes from a state go to just one candidate? And why should states get 2 votes added to their electoral college votes, independent of their population?" Unless I'm mistaken the decision for all votes from a state to go to one candidate is made by that state. Some states do split thier votes, some do not. I could be wrong about that though and I do not really have time to do the necessary research right now. That is a valid question/suggestion though and not nearly as loaded as the original one.

    122. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You just need to fuck up your ballots more. If CA had the problems that FL had, YOU would have decided the election, 'cause it wouldn't have mettered which way FL went :-)

    123. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Vague+but+True · · Score: 1
      It's interesting to see that this question was modded as a 5, that people believe this is an important question that needs an answer. However, the problem exist here on /. itself, yet I doubt it will be changed for this forum.

      The modding on this forum will be preformed by a handful of people, and not the 'popular vote'.

      Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

      --

      I'm not a doctor, but I play one in bed.

    124. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by dpilot · · Score: 1

      Looking over the other comments, IMHO one more salient question can be derived:

      One state (Wisconson?) is considering making its electoral votes divide in proportion to its popular vote. Since the Constitution confers the specifics and mechanics of voting to the states, it seems that they are fully within their rights to do this. What is your opinion in this type of reform?

      Which could spur another:

      The current voting methods favor, some would say entrench, the current two-party system. There are other votings methods, some of which have been used elsewhere in the world. It is within States' Rights to adopt an alternative method, such as Instant Runoff. What is your opinion on this?

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    125. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by geoffspear · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You clearly have no idea what "Fascism" means. I suggest you purchase a dictionary oir a history book.

      --
      Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
    126. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Almost-Retired · · Score: 1

      It wouldn't be so bad if Senators were limited to campaign contributions from individual residents who actualy live in the state.

      Now that is one hell of an idea. But I suspect that if such a law were to be placed in the hopper for discussion, I'd suspect the hopper to spontainiously catch fire just from all the noise coming from the gored and screaming oxen we have in the senate today.

      That, and a constitutional amendment mandating the votes in the electoral college by a states members, must be apportioned according to the popular vote rather than the 50.000001% winner takes all that exists now. And IMNSHO any candidate getting more than 1% of the popular gets a minimum of one electoral vote. That alone would bring up the noise floor because it would emphasize that every vote counts. It could conceiveably take away the over 50% advantage now automaticly enjoyed in most states with the winner take all rule.

      But the old boy network is alive and well whether they are wearing white sheets or not.

      Just a view from someone 2x older than the top of your 18-35 bracket. That doesn't mean I'm automaticly smarter, but I have had a long time to observe the foibles of the current system. :-)

      Cheers, Gene

    127. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by richardbowers · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How can giving more weight to the votes of individuals possibly lead to fascism, unless by fascism you mean to imply any governmental system you dislike and which isn't blatantly communist(both fascist and communist have both been way too overused in the last 50 or so years).

      It's what's called the Tyranny of the Majority - Germany, IIRC, had a purely popular vote in the early thirties. If you have a purely popular vote, you only need to convince the majority of actual voters that they are being disinfranchised by group X, or that party Y is somehow corrupt, to start losing some of what we have.

      There's nothing special about being a democracy with a popular vote - they've been around for a long time. They generally fail, though, as soon as people realize that they can vote themselves stuff at other peoples' expense. You could argue that we're already in that situation now, but I think a purely popular vote would make it worse.

      --
      Law is whatever is boldly asserted and plausibly maintained. -- Aaron Burr
    128. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by arudloff · · Score: 1

      If you get rid of the electoral college, where would candidates spend the majority of their campaign money? Where that money is most efficiently used -- cities. The issues of the city would be represented more than the issues of the less dense country side.

      Like it or not, "country" represents "more" of the union than the cities do. If a government fails to address the desires and beliefs of a vast amount of the land, I could very easily see how we could break down from a republic to another system of government..

      Remember Waco?

    129. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by mirio · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How can giving more weight to the votes of individuals possibly lead to fascism, unless by fascism you mean to imply any governmental system you dislike and which isn't blatantly communist(both fascist and communist have both been way too overused in the last 50 or so years).

      Ever heard of Hitler? He was elected by popular vote and at the pinnacle of his government had 95% approval of the citizenry.

    130. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by amerinese · · Score: 1
      Can we not ask questions in such a biased way?

      You really do assume a lot when you already call a two-party duopoly a shortcoming. Why would diversity in the number of parties actually mean anything in terms of more closely satisfying some sort of overall aggregation of voter preference? Is it possible there is diversity within parties and even between the Democratic and Republican parties? Do you really think we would have gone to war for example, if Democrats had won the last election? And is war not a big difference?

      One example to blow this all up--Ralph Nader--Had he run from within the Democratic Party, he probably would have been a much greater force for change than running from a third party. He would have gotten national coverage and he would have probably influenced the other candidates, perhaps the way all the candidates, Al Sharpton included, seemed to have formed a mosaic that became Kerry. Nader had the option to do it, but he is too scared to be more than just fringe.

    131. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Johnny5000 · · Score: 1

      If we elect the President by the Electoral College, then Presidential candidates will simply spend huge amounts of money in a few swing states. Your cote won't count unless you live in Ohio, Florida, and a few other places. As a side effect, the views of people who live in strongly-Republican or strongly-Democratic states won't be represented at all, they might as well not even vote. So if disenfranchising 40% or more of the population is your goal, by all means keep the Electoral College.

      --
      The libertarian solution to the failures of capitalism is to apply more capitalism til the failures are fixed.
    132. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have it backwards.
      Electoral votes are the sum of the number of people in the House of Representatives and the number of people in Senate. The number of people in the House is based on population. The number of senators in a state is always 2. Let's say that a state only has 2 representatives and 2 members of Senate. This totals 4 electoral votes. Also, figure in a population of X. A voter's "voting power", the number of electoral votes per citizen is 4 * 1/X = 4/X.
      Now, try this with twice the population. They get twice as many representatives, but still 2 members of Senate. Therefore, their voting power is 6 * 1/2X = 3/X, which is less than 4/X, in case you didn't also arrive at that conclusion.
      The electoral process allows a chance to even out the scales between large and small states.

    133. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by swv3752 · · Score: 1

      The Founding Fathers were elitist pricks. They felt that the common man could not decide on such weighty matters of state as picking the president. The Electors were meant to vote thier conscience and ignore the popular vote. If this was the case then we would not have had the mess of an election last 2000.

      I personally would recommend abolishing the Electoral college, apportion a number of votes to the states as they had with the electoral college. The electoral votes should be divied up on a per county basis. No longer would visiting a couple of cities gain an entire State's votes.

      --
      Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
    134. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by timmy+the+large · · Score: 1
      Are you actually suggesting that each county gets on vote in the system, making say New York City count for the same as some small county in Montana.

      It seems a bit diproportionate to allocate votes based simmply on geography. That is part of the problem now. Most of the population in the country lives in more populous areas, you would be taking more of the power from the mojority and giving it to the minority.

      I may not agree with the majority alot of the time, but atleast I know that I had a fair say. When you have elections and major decisions being decided by a minority on a regular basis,more and mor people feel like their vote doesn't matter and don't bother voting.

    135. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by internic · · Score: 1
      "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."

      There you have it. If all people are equal and the government derives its authority from the consent of those people, then each person's say should count equally. If not, then some people have, in effect, unequal dominion over others. If you believe what is quoted above, then the onus is on you to argue why representation should NOT be equal.

      --
      "You call it a new way of thinking; I call it regression to ignorance!" -- Operation Ivy
    136. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Borogrove · · Score: 1
      The electoral system was not chosen because it ensured a balance between the populous states and the rural states. It was in fact originally created to benefit slaveowners.

      Wrong. Back in the day, a person counted for the population of a state, regardless of whether that person could vote. So women, children, and slaves all inflated the power of the few voting white males. The Northern states needed some way to lessen the advantage that the slaves provided, so the 3/5ths clause was negotiated. Anything less, and the Southern states wouln't have joined the union. Sure, that would've saved us from the Civil war, but I doubt if things would've worked out so well in the end.

      It's not very difficult building a case for why a president should be chosen by a simple majority.

      A simple majority, or a plurality? If we really need a majority, we're stuck doing runoff elections nearly every time. Maybe that's not so bad, but it also means that the only people who can run effectively are the ones who have enough money to run a national campaign, which means TV ads. The cost of campaiging would increase dramatically, because right now it's kept in check by candidates ignoring the safe states.

      Regardless, it's a moot point. The electoral college increases the influence of the smaller states. Those states would have to ratify a constitutional amendment to change the system. Why would they do that? Do you really think that just because the states are small, the people are idiots?

    137. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by ZaMoose · · Score: 4, Insightful

      BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT IS THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF THE STATES, NOT THE PEOPLE.

      We live in a representative federal republic and therefore, the states actually choose the president, not the people.

      I suggest you get your facts straight before shooting your mouth off.

      --
      I wish I had a kryptonite cross, because then you could keep Dracula and Superman away.
    138. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by C10H14N2 · · Score: 1

      Your argument fails on the fact that even with a constitutional amendment that passes Congress, it would still have to receive ratification by 38 states to come into force. It thus makes sense to ensure you have the necessary support in the states before poisoning the issue with failure on the national level and delaying progress for another century.

    139. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by electroniceric · · Score: 1
      If you go way back to the poster who first invoked the Federalist papers, there's a passage in there that merits some decent debate:

      It was equally desirable, that the immediate election should be made by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station, and acting under circumstances favorable to deliberation, and to a judicious combination of all the reasons and inducements which were proper to govern their choice. A small number of persons, selected by their fellow-citizens from the general mass, will be most likely to possess the information and discernment requisite to such complicated investigations.


      Hamilton's proposal is not entirely off-base: it's not clear to me that a simple majority election is the best way to do things. While the language about careful deliberations and proper conditions may have been window dressing around the political negotiations of the day, we have the good fortune that we can now evaluate what he wrote free of those constraints and with a contemporary perspective. Careful deliberation and analysis seem like a damn good prerequisite for someone who runs the richest country and the world, and has a big say over most others. That is, a robust voting process requires engagement and thought by the people voting, something that is notably lacking in many recent elections in this country. Just to stir the pot, why should you get to cast a direct vote for president if you haven't been paying much attention to his (or her eventually) work in the first place?

      However, as other posters have also made clear, the current role of the elector involves neither analysis nor deliberation, so the college is not even vaguely living up to the purpose set forth for it.

      A good place to look at direct democracy in action is ballot initiatives. I recently had the misfortune of living in Washington state in a period increasing reliance on ballot initiatives. This let voters loose on such questions as:
      • Should legislature be forced to abandon the motor vehicles registration fees that were created a few years previous to try to strengthen transportation infrastructure?
      • Should legislature be forced to alter environmental regulations governing streams in order to try to protect salmon populations?
      As an individual, I don't know how the budgeting process of a state government works, nor the overall process of designing environmental regulations. If you don't think your legislators are doing a good job, fire them or lobby them. But don't mangle the whole process just cause you don't like what the legislature is doing right now.

      I don't really know which side I fall on about electors vs. direct voting - perhaps the indirectness of legislature is not the right strategy for getting a good chief executive. None the less, the electoral college needs to either be used as it was designed or scrapped.
    140. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Untimely+Ripp'd · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Hmm, well, I guess I'm willing to support this statement, although I didn't make it.

      I don't think the Electoral College is a bad idea per se -- I think that it makes some sense to group people geographically and then have them vote as one, and plenty of people have made arguments, including some interesting mathematical arguments, to demonstrate that the EC increases, rather than decreases, the value of the individual vote.

      HOWEVER: What is not at all fair is the formula for distributing electoral college votes. In 2000, Montana had 1 vote for every 300K citizens, & California had only 1 vote for every 600K citizens. Every state gets a minimum of 3 electoral votes, which gives all those gunslingers in Wyoming, Idaho and Montana WAY more than their share -- just as it gives them an outrageously disproportionate influence in the Senate (which I actually consider to be a worse problem). The source for those numbers says:

      While largely ignored by Presidential candidates in elections, the smaller states are not as completely irrelevant as they would be otherwise.

      This misses the point -- the small states are ignored by the candidates because they ARE NOT SWING STATES. Most are overwhelmingly Republican.

      The most surprising thing about American politics right now is that North Dakota and South Dakota have 4 Democratic senators, even though both states vote firmly Republican in the Presidential elections. I don't know what to make of this, other than to suppose that the Rs must be repeatedly nominating wackos for Senator in those states. If the party manages to get its extremists under control, we'll have 4 more R senators, with the result that about a dozen Republican senators will have been elected to represent about 10 million citizens, vs the 88 senators that represent the other 270 million of us.

      In any case, since the Constitution isn't going to change anytime soon -- the Republicans would have to be crazy to allow it -- the only real hope for the Democratic party is mass migration. They need to move about 1 million liberal Democrats out of TX, OK, CO, NY and CA into each of ND, SD, WY, MT, ID and UT.

      You will note that this is NOT that many people, when all is said and done. If somebody with a lot of money made it their objective, it could be done. Most of the migrants should come from Texas , Oklahoma, and Colorado, where their current residency just serves to increase the number of electors appointed by the Republicans in those states.

      --

      And let the angel whom thou still hast serv'd tell thee ...

    141. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by divisionbyzero · · Score: 1

      Hmmm... I think direct vote may actually make things even more partisan and unstable. Currently 44% of eligible voters actually vote and in a direct vote that would mean that 51% of that 44% or ~22% would determine the president. At least the electoral college provides some stability. I don't think it is ideal but it is better than a straight direct vote.

    142. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Potatomasher · · Score: 1

      Eugh... you americans and your "Founding Fathers". Why keep going back to things that were decided hundreds of years ago. What.. you think that the founding fathers were god like creatures and wrote the Truth (note the capital T) in your constitution ?? Live with the times and learn to reform your political and social systems.

      --
      A million monkeys and this is the best sig they could come up with...
    143. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If two candidates are too similar, their votes will spread out between them and the liberal candidate would "win it all", even though the politics of the two first candidates has got 60% popular support (even in the state).

      Yes, but the bigger problem is that Gore had the popular vote over Bush and Nader, who was also liberal, topped it up further. Bush still won.

      The flaw you illustrate points to the same two-party system that everyone points to. There are shades of grey in the middle here, and Nader's policies are different from Gore's were. There should be more parties, not less. I hate voting for the 'lesser of two evils'

    144. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      > Both NY and California contribute more to this country just about all other states combined
      > both economically and culturally.

      "So those rubes in flyover country can just suck it." You've just made a better case for the electoral college than I ever could.

      Chris Mattern

    145. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Mr+Guy · · Score: 1

      You are correct. States do decide how their votes go, but most (if not all) states have laws that regulate how the electorate must vote. Currently, all but two states operate in a "Winner takes all" manner. Maine and Nebraska being the exceptions.

      For more information:
      U.S Electoral College entry in wikipedia
      How the Electoral College works

    146. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Temporal · · Score: 3, Insightful

      perhaps because he was lucky enough to preside over a great economic boom that ended just as he was leaving office.

      *sigh*

      Clinton was not, by any means, "lucky" to have presided over that boom, and I'll tell you why.

      Clinton came in during a mild recession. One thing he did early in his term in office was get congress to promise to balance the budget. In order to get Democrats to agree to this (traditionally Republicans were the ones wanting balanced budgets) he raised taxes for the upper class in the same bill. Republicans, of course, insisted that this was a horrible move and would greatly damage the economy according to supply-side economic theory (aka Reagonomics, tricle-down economics, voodoo economics).

      Now, here's some basic economics for you: Deficit spending and taxation are pretty much the same thing. When you deficit spend, you add money to the economy, which devalues the money that's already there. The effect is that you are transferring wealth from the citizens to the government, just as you would through taxation.

      As Alan Greenspan put it, "Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth." [1].

      However, deficit spending hurts the economy far more than taxation. Pretend you are a wealthy individual looking to invest money. Say you narrowed it down to two options: You could lend money to someone with a great idea for a new business, or you could purchase property. Now, if inflation is likely to hit hard in the next few years, what would you do? Well, if you lend money to that guy, that money is going to be worth a lot less in a few years when he pays it back. But if you buy property, that property is only going to go up in value. So, you buy property.

      Well, guess what? The economy booms when people are lending. Buying property does nothing for the economy.

      Indeed, Clinton's elimination of the deficit led interest rates to drop to historic lows. In fact, simply the promise that the deficit would be eliminated caused people to start investing like crazy, which caused the economic boom, which itself helped eliminate the deficit. Circular logic? Reganomics seemed pretty circular, too, but Clintonomics actually worked.

      And look what Bush has done. He gave us a massive tax cut, and is paying for it through deficit spending. He claims that his tax cuts will help the economy, but deficit spending hurts far more than tax cuts help. I'll grant you that the recession itself was not Bush's fault; the economy moves in cycles no matter what the government does. But Bush's policies are only making it worse.

      Fiscal responsibility isn't just a happy thought. It's essential for a healthy economy.

    147. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by killjoe · · Score: 1

      You haven't answered the question. Why should the votes of those rubes (I prefer the term leeches due to them constantly having their hand out for govt subsidies) in flyover country have more say in who the president is then the people who contribute more to the wealth and culture of this country?

      Under what calculus do you justify ohio being more important then California?

      --
      evil is as evil does
    148. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by the_Bionic_lemming · · Score: 1

      Both NY and California contribute more to this country just about all other states combined both economically and culturally.

      Ahhh, so that explains why I hate living in America nowadays.

      --
      _ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
    149. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by TyrranzzX · · Score: 1

      Well, now that the execuitive branch has expanded to the point where the president is essentially king...I mean, how many departments does he have, and how many powers has congress delegated to those departments, especially after the patriot act?

      Frankly, if people were more in-tune with this division of power thing, they'd realize that our population has grown something like 10 or 100 fold, while at the same time the federal government has grown to a massive size, and state and local governments have shrunk. How can we ensure that minorities rights are ensured, when majorities (or worse, minorities with power over majorities) exist with power over them?

      So why should we have the right to vote for the president? Because then everyone will fallow around the bouncing ball and be distracted by television politics while their rights are dwindled away under execuitive orders, court judgements, and general corruption as they're turned into livestock.

      TV exists to make money by serving advertisers, advertising serves to convince people into buying their stuff to make money, money is synonymous with power as you can use it to buy anything, therefore, Television is mind control.

    150. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by drew · · Score: 1

      how about the election of 1824 when john quincy adams was elected over andrew jackson despite losing the popular vote by a margin of 43.1% to 30.5%? (interestingly enough jqa was also the relatively inept son of a former president, and was distinguished from his father by his middle initial)

      or 1876 when rutherford hayes "beat" samuel tilden by a margin of 48% to 51%?

      or 1888 when benjamin harrison lost the popular vote but not the election to grover cleveland, 47.8% to 48.6%....

      the united states president was never designed to be selected by popular vote. in many states in the early days of our country, the state legislatures decided who would get the electoral votes for their state. popular vote totals weren't even recorded until the above mentioned election of 1824. we don't live in a democracy, and never have- we live in a republic that greatly resembles a democracy. I'm not interested in getting into a debate right now about which is better, but it is important to notice that the election of 2000 was not without precedent.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    151. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by quisph · · Score: 1
      If it's so "unfair" that Clinton won the election with only 43% of the popular vote, surely it would have been even less fair if Bush had won with 37%, or Perot with 18%.

      Lumping Perot in with Bush is nonsense. None of the three candidates would have won against the other two. And while it's likely that it would have been a much closer race if Perot hadn't run, it's far from certain that the outcome would have been any different.

    152. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by bob_jenkins · · Score: 1

      The question shouldn't imply that instant runoff is the best alternative to plurality voting. Condorcet, approval, and even Borda counts have a better claim to the title.

    153. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by TCQuad · · Score: 1

      Or would you care to deny that in the current system, a citizen of Illinois has more Presidential voting power than one from Utah?

      In Illinois (2003 population 12.6 million), there is 1 electoral vote for every 600,000. In Utah (Pop. 2.3 million), there is 1 electoral vote for every 460,000.

      Therefore, since your vote corresponds to 1/460,000 of an electoral vote in Utah and only 1/600,000 in Illinois, I would like to deny that a citizen of Illinois has more Presidential voting power than one from Utah.

      Sources:
      Electoral Votes
      PDF of population estimates for 2003

    154. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by drew · · Score: 1

      (a) dishonest, because it implies they have ANY power beyond saying "Aye" to the man (or party) they were sworn to, when they really don't.

      actually they do. the electors can vote for whoever they want, regardless of who wins the popular vote in their state. it doesn't happen often, and as far as i know it has never changed the course of an election, but it does happen. in fact it happened in 2000 when of of the electors from washington d.c. cast a blank vote (instead of a vote for al gore) in protest of the district's lack of congressional representation.

      while i do some problems with the way the electoral college is run, i agree with the parent poster that the manner in which the campaigns are run currently does too much to hide the actual process that determines the outcome of the election from the american public. i was actually amazed in the 2000 election by the number of people i talked to who had no idea that a candidate could win an election without winning the popular vote. i thought it was something every kid learned about in grade school, or at least high school. (who knows, maybe everyone did and most chose to forget it.) and i am still amazed that in the four years since the last election i have only come across maybe three people who realize that the electors are not legally bound to follow the popular vote in their state, even though it happened in the last election.

      this lack of voter understanding needs to change first. there's no point in changing the election process unless most of the people in the country understand how the current process works, and why, else we end up with something worse than what we started with.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    155. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by WgT2 · · Score: 1

      the ability to win the Election even after losing the popular vote. This hardly seems democratic.

      That's because it was a means of compromise between rural and urban areas of the early United States. It's purely Constitutional. You might be able to go ahead and extend such an arguement to:

      Why don't we get to vote in every single vote that Congress faces?
      Ans: Because we are a Democratic Republic. Not a pure democracy.

      Not only that, but we use to not be able to elect our own Senators, that used to be left up to those we elected to Congress as representatives. That was changed in an amendment which could also change what you mentioned as not seeming democratic. But, again, we are not a pure democracy, but a democratic republic.
    156. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Xabraxas · · Score: 1

      So instead we have a situation where the majority is underrepresented and the minority has more control and power than they should. We have a situation where the people who pay 70% of the taxes in this country get less than half the amount in government funding compared to those that live in the states that pay 30% of the taxes. I'm not against welfare but I cannot believe it when people from the "red" states complain about the "liberal media" and "liberal professors" when they control the country and its resources from a minority position.

      --
      Time makes more converts than reason
    157. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by drew · · Score: 1

      That, and a constitutional amendment mandating the votes in the electoral college by a states members, must be apportioned according to the popular vote rather than the 50.000001% winner takes all that exists now

      there's no reason that this has to be a constituional ammendment. (which requires like 3/4 support of both houses to pass, iirc) each state is allowed to decide how to hand out its electoral votes, and it can be passed by a simple majority in the state, just like any other state law. there is actually a proposal on the ballot in colorado to do just that, effective this election (which may get messy if it passes, because it seems to me, and apparently an awful lot of other people, that it would set a bad precedent to be able to change how the votes are decided on election day.)

      i'm not sure i'm in favor of this particular proposal, partly because i don't like the idea that it is changing the way the votes are awarded on election day, and partly because i don't really like the idea of divvying the votes up according to popular vote in the whole state any more than sending the whole state one way or the other. personally, i would prefer the way they do it in new hampshire or nebraska, where one vote is given to the candidate who wins each congressional district and two votes got to the candidate who won the popular vote in the state. it would still encourage candidates to try to win states (and districts) rather than votes, but it would decrease the effect that large states like california and new york would have in turning close elections one way or the other.

      if you could get the support to pass a constitutional ammendment changing the way electors are assigned, you probably have enough support to do away with it entirely. passing a constitutional ammendment is really hard, and intentionally so. changing the way electoral votes are awarded at the state level would be much easier, and could be done by working with the system as it was designed rather than trying to overthrow it.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    158. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by drew · · Score: 1

      2000 was the fourth election in which a candidate won the electoral vote while getting less popular votes than at least one of his opponents. I listed them in one of my other posts on this thread if you are interested in the specific elections.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    159. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by drew · · Score: 1

      removing the electoral college would take a constitutional ammendment.

      changing how the electors are assigned by each state can be done with state laws that only require a majority in each state.

      of course, in either case, you are right, in that the president has essentially no influence on matters concerning the electoral college.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    160. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by drew · · Score: 1

      Clinton was not, by any means, "lucky" to have presided over that boom, and I'll tell you why.

      He may not have been lucky to preside over the boom, but he sure as hell was lucky that he got out of there when he did.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    161. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by default+luser · · Score: 1

      the electors can vote for whoever they want, regardless of who wins the popular vote in their state

      Actually, this is another right that has been slowly eroded in our two-party system.

      In 26 states and DC, the electors by law must vote the way they are pledged. Combined with "winner take all" assignment of electors, this locks in the perpetual disenfranchisement of minority voters in non-swing states.

      The electroal college is not a broken concept...it is a broken implementation. Assignment of electors by voting district, and allowing electors to vote their own way in all 50 + 1 states would go a long way toward encouraging more than two parties, and raising voter turnout.

      --

      Man is the animal that laughs.
      And occasionally whores for Karma.

    162. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by btwIANAL · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately an election in the modern terms was not a possibility back when the constitution was written. I do not think the founding fathers thought that there would be a day when information could travel from all cities in the country to a single location over the course of a few minutes, let alone a single day. The thought of popluar voting elections thus would not have been considered.

      --
      And then they armed me with moderator points and the world mourned.
    163. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Valegor · · Score: 1

      You are correct. States do decide how their votes go, but most (if not all) states have laws that regulate how the electorate must vote. Currently, all but two states operate in a "Winner takes all" manner. Maine and Nebraska being the exceptions.

      Glad to see my memory hasn't failed me. That being the case if we want the votes to be splitable(which I do atleast) we should start at the state level instead of the federal.

    164. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Ominous+Armed+Cow · · Score: 1

      "Your vote won't count unless you're an moron, idiot, imbecile, or some other kind of retard."

      Well, this would explain alot. :)

      "See the pattern?"

      No-- See the false analogy? The relationship between one's IDENTITY traits and how they vote is not (and constitutionally should not be) inextricably linked. The relationship between one's ECONOMIC activity and how one vote's is, -if one is not a moron. This is why the law is based upon PROPERTY RIGHTS, and the primary POLICE POWER of each state is to protect property rights.

      Rural states have different economic requirements than urban environments, and their economic interests differ accordingly. Since the FEDERAL government's primary peacetime function is the regulation and promotion of economic activity, and is itself a FEDERATION of states, it is supposed to represent every state's interests as equally legitimate, not just the high density ones.

      "You need to explain why one kind of minority deserves a boost to it's power, but not any of those others."

      Ok. First, your conclusion is false: High population states DO get more power in the House of Representatives, and in the Electoral college. They get the same power as their less populated peers in the Senate. Problem? Than found a country and write your own constitution, but don't pretend that the U.S. one was based on majority rule when it was based on preserving a FEDERATION of states.

      Second: The people in the "minority" are the majority within their state. The state is equal in the eyes of the federation, so please explain why a state with a higher population is deserving to be MORE EQUAL than its peers. What moral argument could be made against succession if the smaller states could be enslaved and pushed around by the larger states?

      "Only 40%? The existing system has disenfranchised the 75% of voters who don't live in swing states, so that'll be an improvement."

      Ridiculous. 1) The ability to vote in a state where you are in the minority != disenfranchisement. You are allowed to move to another state you know, --it's a free country. 2) The "Swing states" wouldn't be swing states if the
      other states didn't actually tally up the votes and get a reputation as a "red" or "blue" state.

      "Of course, according to your argument, 49% of the population is ALWAYS disenfranchised by the other 51%. From one point of view, that is true- but still meaningless."

      Also ridiculous, and Captain Carrot never made that argument. DISENFRANCHISEMENT is the inability to vote. If you get to vote, you are not DISENFRANCHISED. Maybe you should take Captain Carrot's advice and read all of the Federalist Paper*s*, and consult a legal dictionary or an encyclopedia while you're at it, rather than just pretend you have read them.

    165. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by PMuse · · Score: 1

      The question is a good one, but the specific term "instant-runoff voting" should be replaced with "approval voting or other improved voting methods".

      Instant Run-off Voting (IRV) is a particular voting algorithm that produces some unpredicatable (to the voter) results. There are much better methods available, such as approval voting and the Condorcet method.

      IRV is little more than a snappy name covering bad math. It makes a lousy poster-child for the movement to adopt an alternative voting method. How bad is the math on IRV? Under certain circumstances, you can benefit your candidate less by ranking him highest than if you had ranked him lower. That is not a result we want adopted. I'm very interested to hear the candidates' responses to this question, but please revise it before we ask it.

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
    166. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by mchawi · · Score: 1

      I get the electoral college just fine. I was just explaining that winning the 'popular vote' has nothing to do with a majority.

      The 2-1 comment was mainly a joke about how our voting trends show we are one of the most apathetic countries in the world when it comes to voting. Mainly I think this is because our system sucks. Runoff voting or several other options would probably increase voter turnout a lot.

      As for the electoral college, in most cases the winner of the popular vote would almost always win in the electoral college if you had representatives based on % vote per state instead of most states having the winner get the whole block.

      Sort of a moot point right now, as I don't see the parties in power working on changing a system that works so well for them.

    167. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Why shouldn't they be less important? Why should ohio or missouri be more important then NY or California. Both NY and California contribute more to this country just about all other states combined both economically and culturally.

      I know! man, right on!

      Why can't everybody see that? OMG! Wyoming shouldn'g even be considered part of the country!

      Bah!

    168. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by dajak · · Score: 1

      fuck that. when all racers are equally prepared the best one will win. we have "lots" of choices, but only two have enough financing to become public enough for the average joe to see.

      The winner takes all. If voters see that one (close-to-least-preferred) candidate is taking a clear lead then many will naturally decide to throw their weight behind any more preferred candidate most likely to keep the other one from a majority in parliament. The other candidates will be invisible for another term. Only parties with a strong regional appeal (e.g. Scottish Nationalist Party in UK) have a serious chance of gaining a few seats.

      In a proportional system all parties that make it into parliament will be relevant and visible during the term. Because there are multiple ways to form a majority, parties will form temporary majority coalitions to deal with a specific decision. In a first-past-the-post or two-party system it will be easier to take decisions on minor issues that are not supported by a majority of the population and get away with it unscathed in the next election. It also impoverishes political thought by reducing every issue to a 'left' and 'right' way to deal with it.

      every party should be given equal amounts to "advertise" to the public.

      Not realistic. In the Netherlands we have the "Party Party". Serious taxpayers do not want to subsidize it. In the past (20's and 30's) we also had a fairly successful "Free Beer Party".

      It is not about advertising, but about relevance. The best advertising is being in parliament and doing something useful with the mandate you received from your voters.

    169. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If he could have gotten a third term, all he had to do was bomb a few random countries for dubious reasons and his popularity would skyrocket as war president. Surely that's not difficult when you have the world's strongest military.

    170. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1
      Many inattentive voters in the 2000 election were sincerely surprised to discover that a President can be elected without receiving the highest number of popular votes.

      That line right there is very telling.
      Now, I am in no way condoning or suggesting the revoking of anyone's right to vote, but as an exercise in the hypothetical, and referencing an earlier post in this thread discussing the creation of the electoral college as a body that purported to be politically-intellectually superior to the average layman, it does perhaps bear out that a great many Americans know relatively little of our system of government, instead choosing to divorce themselves of such boring matters and satiate themselves in front of a TV watching drivel like American Idol, Survivor #264: Lost in DisneyWorld, and endless, mindless sitcom after sitcom.
      Many of you won't humor me the following paragraphs, which is understandable, but sometimes it's fun to play devil's advocate:
      Have you ever known someone that voted based on a coin toss, or because a candidate looked younger, or more attractive ? Should a person sucseptible to irrelevant distractions and apathetic towards meaningful issues abstain from voting, or at least have someone representative vote for them ?
      Should people who have no grasp of, or concern for, the issues, or of the way our government (whether they agree with it or not) is structured, be empowered to place or preempt a candidate from office? Or, put another way, would you want someone who knew nothing about surgery get to choose who your surgeon was if you were going under the knive for a life or death operation? (and assuming they didn't know much about the surgeon, either).
      This is all just food for thought, and just as much part of an open mind as abolishing the EC is. Probably the kinds of questions the forefathers asked themselves.
      Maybe the EC really did function this way in it's infancy, in a limited respect, especially considering the times, when say, a tradesman probably knew nothing except his trade. He might have even been illiterate, for that matter !

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    171. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by dajak · · Score: 1

      Here's a question: Why do you think a President ought to be chosen by popular vote? I'm sure your instinct will be to tell me that I'm asking that question the wrong way around. That's a sign that you've been thoroughly indoctrinated. Make an effort to cast aside your assumptions and try to build a case for chosing a President by a simple majority. If you're honest about it, you'll find it surprisingly difficult.

      I am a monarchist and live in a hereditary monarchy with a parliamentary democracy, so I have been 'indoctrinated' the other way around. I indeed fail to see why executive government, or even worse a symbolic head of state or any other office held by a single person, ought to be elected. I will present some of arguments in favor of placing a random person on the throne instead of an elected one.

      Paliaments, which legislate and control government, should be elected and (proportionally) represent the people. Parliament should send away an incompetent or disobedient government and appoint a new one.

      A head of state, as a single person, can never represent the people's opinions proportionally. The fact that he is elected makes it problematic for him to demand loyalty from those who didn't elect him. Since many people naturally tend to be loyal it leads to an incumbency bonus in the next election. Also, because he has a popular mandate of his own, parliaments will rarely dare to send him away.

      In most stable democracies the head of state is not directly elected. Often it is the republics with a strong elected head of government (think of Hitler's Germany, Napoleon III's France, Putin's Russia (?)) that degenerate into dictatorships. In the case of the USA it is loyalty to the Constitution that stabilizes the system which puts too much power in the hands of one person. In the case of monarchies it is the monarch which provides a symbolic and stable focus of loyalty. In the Netherlands it is sometimes said that the monarch represents the "right to be divided" (politicially) while still being united (in the loyalty to the crown).

      Monarchs of course have the advantage over Constitutions that they can actually intervene, as in 1981 in Spain, to preserve freedom and democracy. On the other hand a stupid or frivolous monarch that interferes without broad public support is a danger to the system, so it is good to have a Constitution too.

      Another advantage of monarchies is that they tend to be more progressive in changing the Constitution because such changes lead to less anxiety among the population as long as the monarchy itself remains unchanged (Dutch social-democrat politician in 1992: "since 1945 only war and threats to the Royal family can shake the foundations of the Nation").

      There are other options, of course: the appointed head of state, the proportionally elected or appointed college as head of state (the preferred options of organized Republicans in the Netherlands),selection by lottery, or having no head of state at all. The last option does not solve the loyalty problem, because people wil simply redirect loyalty to the closest thing available (prime minister, constitution, flag, army).

    172. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by drew · · Score: 1

      i'm not really sure most americans would consider this a "right that has been eroded".

      i knew that such laws existed although i was not sure how many states actaully had them. regardless, the electors are human and can choose to break the law, either for personal gain or as a form of protest (the elector who cast a blank ballot in the 2000 election was from d.c.) and if they decide to vote for someone else, and get fined or imprisoned or beat to death by a mob of angry voters, that still doesn't change their vote. whether the state laws (or the constitution) allow the votes to be changed in that case, i am not sure.

      since the 2000 election, everyone seems to have ideas of how the election process should be changed. but unless people actually learn the current system and its goals, instead of just focusing on its percieved shortfalls. for all the people clamoring for instant runoff or other alternative forms of voting- you can do it. there's nothing preventing a district or state from using instant runoff voting to choose how to allocate electoral votes. some places already use it for municipal elections. for people wishing that their state would split the electoral votes, it can be done (there is an issue on the ballot in colorado to do that effective this election). too many people are too anxious to throw out the electoral system because of it's flaws, flaws that many people including you and me believe are flaws of implementation rather than design, that they have never stopped to consider whether they can work with it instead.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    173. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1

      This is utterly untrue. Direct popular vote was considered and rejected for completely different reasons. It's a strictly modern habit of thought to insist on results on the very same day for a nationwide election, but that didn't even happen in the very common statewide elections of the time. They were more patient than that.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    174. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1
      Live with the times and learn to reform your political and social systems.

      Our Constitution is certainly open to criticism, but I'll not tolerate cirticism based on ignorance. It explicitly includes provisions for its reform. You'd have know that if you'd read the thing. (I invite you to do so. The original document is less than 4 pages long handwritten, followed by 27 relatively brief articles of amendment. It's a quick read and you might learn something.)

      The American social system, being outside the scope of that document, cannot be altered by the same mechanism. You might think that the government is the proper organ for social reform, but not all Americans conflate the government with society.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    175. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1
      It's funny then, isn't it, that many of the same men who approved that statement also approved the system for electing the President. They must not have felt they contradicted.

      The "consent of the governed" in this case isn't indicative of a democracy. In context it's clearly a statement about all governments whether democratic or not. This is the fundamental political theory which the Founders used to justify their revolt from their King, to clearly contrast with the prevailing Eurpoean theory of "The Divine Right of Kings". It has nothing to do with democracy as such, except for the fairly simple observation that in a democratic system it's possible for the people to withdraw their consent by means other than force of arms.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    176. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by GenSolo · · Score: 1

      Or, from another perspective, whoever wants to change someone's mind always has the burden of proof.
      That's what I said! You want to change the mind of the majority, so the burden of proof is on you. The anti-equality people don't care if they change your mind because they already have their way. Furthermore, I was merely commenting on the logical and rhetorical issue and not the actual discussion. I don't really care because I know that the changes I want implemented are virtually impossible to convince anyone in power to implement.

    177. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by DLR · · Score: 1
      Wrong. Your vote would count just as much as anyone else's did- there just happen to be more people in those places.

      The U.S. consists of both rural and urban areas. My point is that the rural areas would have effectively no representation due to their less dense population.

      So you claim that rural people deserve more power than city people? Why is that? Does the country lifestyle make them inherently more moral?

      It is not that they are more or less moral than urbanites, but that they deserve representation too. Government policy effects them just as it does the rest of us. Their needs and views are different and they should be represented by a government that claims to be "of the people, by the people, for the people".

      See the pattern? You need to explain why one kind of minority deserves a boost to it's power, but not any of those others.

      It seemed so obvious to me that I didn't think it needed explaining, however see above. It's not about a minority status so I didn't even address your straw man.

      Only 40%? The existing system has disenfranchised the 75% of voters who don't live in swing states, so that'll be an improvement.

      I don't disagree that the Electoral College needs reform, but doing away with it not the answer. Perhaps it would be fairer to give each county one vote in the Electoral College and make it mandatory that the Electors vote the way their constituents did. But whatever changes were proposed would have to be studied thoroughly and numerous scenarios tested to make sure we were getting fair representation of the population.

      Of course I'd also like to see a law where you can't get elected to the Presidency if you don't carry your home state. After all those people already know you, if they don't feel you'd make a good President then you shouldn't be President.

      Of course, according to your argument, 49% of the population is ALWAYS disenfranchised by the other 51%. From one point of view, that is true- but still meaningless.

      No, just because you vote and your candidate didn't get elected this time does not mean you got disenfranchised. You get to vote again next time and hopefully make a difference then.

      --
      "Like fire and fusion, government is a dangerous servant and a terrible master."~RAH
    178. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT IS THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF THE STATES, NOT THE PEOPLE.

      Okaaay... That would make a good question for the candidates, actually:

      "Mr. President, are you the Chief Executive of the People of the USA?"

      What do you think GW Bush would say to that? Really...

      I suggest you get your facts straight before shooting your mouth off.

      I wish you'd be marginally relevant. The constant appeal to tradition is getting very stale.

    179. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      We do not exist in a nation where each person's vote is considered equal,

      What's your point? Do you think it's illegal to talk about hypotheticals? Because abortion is legal today, can I not talk about whether it's right or wrnog?

      We're discussing how things SHOULD be, not how they ARE. "That's the way we've always done it" is NOT a rigorous defense for a course of action.

    180. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by DLR · · Score: 1
      "I'm not against welfare..." That's obvious from your post. The Government givith and the Government taketh away, blessed be the name of the Government. Bah! Why can't you let people run their own lives and quit trying to have the goverment help them? I don't want my charity run with the compassion of the IRS, BATF, and USPO. Charity belongs in the private sector and the government needs to keep out of my pocket (other than minimaly). I realize you get to feel good for instituting a socialism because you've "helped the poor" without have to have inconvienced yourself, however most of us would prefer to do our charitable giving of our time and other resources when we choose to.

      ... but I cannot believe it when people from the "red" states complain about the "liberal media" and "liberal professors" when they control the country and its resources from a minority position.

      Google CNN.com for the phrase "left wing" ~1,600 hits. Roughly half the first page (100 links per page) was regarding the shuttle Columbia. Roughly half of what's left was outside the U.S.

      Now repeat for the phrase "right wing" ~ 3,600 hits, maybe 1 or 2 articles on the shuttle, well under 1/4 outside the U.S.

      If that doesn't show you that there is a problem with the media then you are in denial.

      As for being "in control of the country" that is a load of hogwash. I didn't hear a bunch of conservative whining during the last 8 years of the previous century. But really, you only have yourselves to blame for losing the House. The Assault Weapons Ban was foolish and voters let the incumbants know it in spades.

      --
      "Like fire and fusion, government is a dangerous servant and a terrible master."~RAH
    181. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Ok. First, your conclusion is false: High population states DO get more power in the House of Representatives, and in the Electoral college

      It's hard to respond to someone who's so completely ignorant of what I just wrote. Go back and read my first paragraph, and then say that again.

      Also ridiculous, and Captain Carrot never made that argument.

      Another place where you need to practice reading comprehension. Of course Captian Carrot didn't say that; DLR did. (You know, the guy I was responding to...)

      See the false analogy? The relationship between one's IDENTITY traits and how they vote is not (and constitutionally should not be) inextricably linked. The relationship between one's ECONOMIC activity and how one vote's is

      Yes, I know that's your position. What I want is for someone to DEFEND that position; not invoke it as Holy Writ.

      Then again, the argument that people with different economic interests deserve inherently unequal political power is virtually self-refuting (except to audiences in favor of class-warfare). For example, the minority of college-educated American workers have very different economic needs from blue-collar employees. Let's give them greater voting power!

      The principles of free market capitalism say that rural needs would be protected under a popular vote, because whatever power city residents take at the polls, they'll sell back in exchange for critical foodstuffs.

      and is itself a FEDERATION of states, it is supposed to represent every state's interests as equally legitimate, not just the high density ones.

      That's stating how things are, not why they should be this way.

      If you get to vote, you are not DISENFRANCHISED.

      If your vote has 0% chance to change anything, and everyone knew ahead of time the chance was 0%, are you really enfranchised? Note that I'm not claiming this, but DLR did. He claimed that a popular vote would disenfranchise rural dwellers. But as you well know, they'd still get to vote, so they're not disenfranchised.

    182. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Wrong. Back in the day, a person counted for the population of a state, regardless of whether that person could vote.

      Wrong. Back in the day, slaves weren't persons. (I mean that by legal terminiology). "Murder" was killing a person, but killing a slave would just be vandalism. Oxen and horses didn't add to the population, so why should slaves?

      Anything less, and the Southern states wouln't have joined the union.

      Yes... which is why that clause was put in to benefit them. If there had been no special mention of slaves at all, then certainly they wouldn't have counted towards the population, because they weren't people. They were property.

      Do you really think that just because the states are small, the people are idiots?

      Do you really think that because the states are small, the people are selfish? Believe it or not, sometimes the holder of unfair power can be convinced to give it up willingly, by appealing to higher principles.

    183. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's rediculous.

    184. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      They must not have felt they contradicted.

      No. As I've already explained twice, they felt the contradiction was an acceptable compromise to get the Constitution approved. The bicamaral legislature was a compromise. If you don't believe this, then refute it, don't just ignore it.

    185. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Sigh, if you were a robot, this level of self-contradiction would explode your head. I'll just quote 3 of your sentences, and let them sit there and fight each other:

      No, just because you vote and your candidate didn't get elected this time does not mean you got disenfranchised.

      My point is that the rural areas would have effectively no representation due to their less dense population.

      It's not about a minority status so I didn't even address your straw man.

      I can hardly imagine how someone can go on writing a post that is so at-odds with itself. You say that rural areas need special defense because they have fewer people... what do you think "minority" means, if not fewer people?

    186. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Just to stir the pot, why should you get to cast a direct vote for president if you haven't been paying much attention to his (or her eventually) work in the first place?

      Do you speak math-ese? That argument is invalid by the process of induction.
      If a random voter is unqualified to make a choice, why is he qualified to choose the man who makes that choice?

      It is a necessary and obvious result of freedom-of-speech that electors will lose discretionary power. From the very beginning, the Presidential candidates of the USA have been famous across the continent. It's impossible that the voters will not have an opinion as to which man they prefer. It's likewise impossible that they will choose an elector who disagrees with this opinion.

      If electors had ANY other function, then there might be a reason to occasionally vote for one on another basis. But since their ONLY power is selecting the President, one can and should pick electors entirely on which President he plans to select. If you can't get a straight answer from a potential elector well before the election, then don't take the risk he'll disagree with you, and just go to a more forethright choice.

      As an individual, I don't know how the budgeting process of a state government works, nor the overall process of designing environmental regulations.

      Those are all fairly complex questions- too complex to fairly condense down to one ballot. Oftentimes, an expert is required to insulate the voting public from all those details. But the job of casting a vote for President from amoung at most a handful of contenders is not like that.

    187. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by ZaMoose · · Score: 1

      It's not tradition, it's the Constitution - it's what makes the U.S. the U.S.!

      If you want to create the United States of Minna Kirai and make it a direct democracy, go ahead. If you want to try to reform the Constitution, go ahead and see if you can get the necessary Congressional votes and the requisite number of states to ratify your wholesale demolition of the Federalist Constitution.

      --
      I wish I had a kryptonite cross, because then you could keep Dracula and Superman away.
    188. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Ever heard of Hitler? He was elected by popular vote and at the pinnacle of his government had 95% approval of the citizenry.

      Irrelevant. If a guy has 95% support, he will win any kind of election, popular or indirect or whatever.

      (Oh, and Hitler wasn't elected to his position by popular vote, but close enough)

    189. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      It thus makes sense to ensure you have the necessary support in the states

      Captain Obvious strikes again!

      Yes, you do need support before an amendment can be passed- thanks for the enlightenment. But a state can support a position without already having passed an identical law in it's own jurisdiction.

      Do you know how many states had laws completely banning alcohol, before they supported the Prohibition amendment?

      Expecting state laws to pop up first is waiting for something that'll never arrive. Do you remember how Reagan and Gorbachev both wanted to reduce ICBM stockpiles? Neither of them was willing to go ahead and do it unless the other had already agreed to a similar change at the same time.

    190. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there's no reason that this has to be a constituional ammendment.

      Wrong. It absolutely has to be an amendment. Waiting for individual states to pass a law changing their allocation will never work.

      it would still encourage candidates to try to win states (and districts) rather than votes, but it would decrease the effect that large states like california and new york would have in turning close elections one way or the other.

      Yes, exactly. Since it would decrease California's power so much, why would California ever voluntarily decide to weaken itself, especially if Texas is not being weakened in the same way? That would be like Democrats gift-wrapping the Presidency and mailing it to Bush.

    191. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      we should start at the state level instead of the federal.

      Starting at the states will never get anywhere.

    192. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by internic · · Score: 1

      You make an understandable mistake here, I wasn't talking about what the "founding fathers" thought about the electoral college. I was siting a passage most people would agree with (which happened to be written by them) and saying that the straightforward application of that would be proportional democracy.

      As so what they though, I couldn't say, as I am not a historian. I think the electoral college was a compromise without which it would not have been possible to get the fractous states to band together as one union. I also think they were men of their times, and while they had lofty ideals about rights and equallity, they also had a lot of dumb ass ideas that were signs of their times. We are, after all, talking about people who left blacks and women without votes, and counted each slave as less than a man. I would certainly not say all the ideas they had were good ones.

      --
      "You call it a new way of thinking; I call it regression to ignorance!" -- Operation Ivy
    193. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One argument that seems to come up frequently in this discussion is the necessity of "true state representation" in the Presidential election. That fallacious thought is rather absurd. We have representation, in just that manner, allocated in a very judicious and civil manner. It's called the House of Representatives (oddly enough). The so-called "need" for the Electoral College is long past.

      Popular voting is indeed a monumental change in campaigning, and I agree, as others have posted, that it would necessitate a lot of voter education. However, I do have to ask this: Is it easier to discern that Bob Jones got 53% of the vote and Susie Jenkins got 45% (and the third party candidate got the remaining 2%), or is it easier to understand why one state with 50 representative votes had a majority popular vote for Bob Jones, and yet they had 49 for Bob and 1 for Susie Jenkins? Is that truly "representative" of the voter mandate? Why is the electoral college "easier" to use? Why have an obfuscated system of voting in that manner?

    194. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by drew · · Score: 1

      except california is not a person. california is a mix of people who have differing opinions and political beliefs. and california has not always voted democrat, either. for example, they have a republican governor now, or did you miss that? There are an awful lot of republicans in california too, and i'm sure that they would love to see their votes reflected more directly in the electoral college. (when i used to live there, i knew a lot of people who joked that california should be split accross the middle into democratic california and republican california, a la north and south korea.) yes, that would shift the balance of power accross the country in the short term, but it would also encourage other states to start doing the same thing. and it's far more likely to happen in our lifetime than a constitutional ammendment which requires 2/3 support of both houses and approval of 3/4 of the states.

      colorado has an ammendment on the ballot this year that would split the electoral votes of the state according to the percentage of the popular vote effective this election. it was proposed by the democrats in a state that typically splits roughly 55/45 republican. the democrats are obviously hoping that in the future they can get a 5/4 vote for republicans rather than a 9/0 vote. but despite being sponsored by the minority, it's fairly popular, and may actually pass.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    195. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Smurf · · Score: 1
      If we elect the President by a simple plurality (or majority) then Presidential candidates will simply spend huge amounts of money in a few population dense markets. Your vote won't count unless you live in the North East, Los Angeles, and a few other places. And as a side effect the views of rural America won't be represented at all, they might as well not even vote. So if disenfranchising 40% or more of the population is your goal, by all means eleminate the Electoral College.

      Well, right now your vote only counts if you belong to a flip-flop state. If your state is strongly Democrat or Republican, you might as well not vote. And the effect is similar to what you fear: the candidates only concentrate their campaigns in the flip-flop states, ignoring the other ones (unless they are populous because then they have too many electoral votes).

      A way to prevent the problems that you cite and still use the popular vote, is to multiply the counts of each state by a state-specific factor, for example 3/1 for Wyoming, 12/10 for Massachusetts, and 55/53 for California. (As you may guess, I didn't pick the numbers randomly). That way, each individual voter from Wyoming would have more weight than each Californian, and the Republicans from California and Democrats from Wyoming would still have a chance of making a difference.

      Or at least all the states should function like Maine and Nebraska so the electoral votes may be split among the candidates and the effect of potential situations like these would be less pathetic.

      (By the way, some studies show that the Electoral College system as implemented now is actually biased in favor of the populous regions. I'm not sure if that is reasonable, though.)
    196. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      of Illinois has more Presidential voting power than one from Utah.

      Yeah, I flipped the names around. Obviously I meant Utah has more, because my whole point was that low-population states had an unfair advantage. I was changing around which to use as examples, and didn't want to stay with the over-used comparison of California to Wyoming.

    197. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not about advertising, but about relevance. The best advertising is being in parliament and doing something useful with the mandate you received from your voters.

      In Europe it may be the case but we are talking about US of A here, you know, "the home of democracy". Do you really think that an average US voter is going to watch transmissions from the parliament? No. He is going to vote for a white Christian homophobe male who is pro-life, pro-war, pro-gun, anti-gay and pro-capital-punishment. And they need TV to tell them who is that, usually both democrat and republican, and in that case said voter needs to hear who is worse, who he hates more, so he could vote "for the other guy". "The best advertising is being in parliament"? In US of A? Please....... *sigh*

    198. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      california is a mix of people who have differing opinions and political beliefs. and california has not always voted democrat, either. for example,

      Yes, it's a mix of people, of different parties. But one of those parties has the majority. In every state, there is always one party or the other with a majority of the legislature.

      yes, that would shift the balance of power accross the country in the short term,

      You belittle a significant change! How can you imagine that any Democrat this year would be willing to give Bush the Whitehouse, just for the vague hope of encouraging a mildly fairer electoral system in the distant future?

      they have a republican governor now, or did you miss that?

      Governors have no effect on passing amendments. Democratic states often accept a Republican governor, especially if they have 3rd parties splitting the leftist vote. Those governors are RINOs, though... at least as long as they want to stay in office.

      but despite being sponsored by the minority, it's fairly popular, and may actually pass.

      We'll see about that. However, a small state like Colorado has different motives than a big state.

    199. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      At least the electoral college provides some stability.

      You call it "stable" when just 500 more votes in Florida would've kept us out of Iraq? An election that hinges on handfuls of votes in one or two swing states is the opposite of stable!

    200. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      In any case, since the Constitution isn't going to change anytime soon -- the Republicans would have to be crazy to allow it

      Never assume that sanity is a prerequistite for editing the Constitution! Just remember the 18th Amendment, which shows that even the most far-out lunacies can be elevated to the highest law.

      Seriously, the Republicans are not a monolith. Currently the party is steered by a fairly extreme wing that favors war, revenge, and enforced Old Testament morality. The moderate and fiscally conservative Republicans might welcome the change as a way to increase their dominance within the party.

    201. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Rares+Marian · · Score: 1

      as opposed to whom?

      But have we forgotten that we're supposed to weed out questions not run threads.

      --
      The message on the other side of this sig is false.
    202. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Xabraxas · · Score: 1
      "I'm not against welfare..." That's obvious from your post. The Government givith and the Government taketh away, blessed be the name of the Government. Bah! Why can't you let people run their own lives and quit trying to have the goverment help them? I don't want my charity run with the compassion of the IRS, BATF, and USPO. Charity belongs in the private sector and the government needs to keep out of my pocket (other than minimaly). I realize you get to feel good for instituting a socialism because you've "helped the poor" without have to have inconvienced yourself, however most of us would prefer to do our charitable giving of our time and other resources when we choose to.

      Wow you really made a lot of assumptions about me without knowing a damn thing. Let me make some assumptions about you then and see how you take it. You seem to be one of those people that doesn't give a shit about a stable and peaceful society as long as you can have a gun so you can shoot people that bother you like the old and disabled. After all, they're worthless, they can't even work! How do they think they are going to pay for their medicine without working? Fucking freeloaders.

      Google CNN.com for the phrase "left wing" ~1,600 hits. Roughly half the first page (100 links per page) was regarding the shuttle Columbia. Roughly half of what's left was outside the U.S.

      Now repeat for the phrase "right wing" ~ 3,600 hits, maybe 1 or 2 articles on the shuttle, well under 1/4 outside the U.S.

      If that doesn't show you that there is a problem with the media then you are in denial.

      That's the worst study I've ever seen. Amazingly meaningless. Google doesn't mean shit. Try googling for "liberal" and "conservative". That will tell you...nothing...again. The millions of hits could be anything, bloggers that no one reads, dead pages, spoofs. Who knows? Google is evidence of nothing and doesn't represent all media.

      As for being "in control of the country" that is a load of hogwash. I didn't hear a bunch of conservative whining during the last 8 years of the previous century. But really, you only have yourselves to blame for losing the House. The Assault Weapons Ban was foolish and voters let the incumbants know it in spades.

      You obviously don't know what control means. The president doesn't control everything that happens in this country. We have congress and the courts. During a lenghty period of time in Clinton's administration the Republicans were in charge of Congress. How could they not be considering where most Federal spending ends up? Certainly not the Blue states. Republicans have never been fiscally conservative despite what they say. They just don't want to spend money in the Blue states. They want their prisons, military bases, and subsidized farming.

      Oh, and by the way, if you really didn't hear conservatives complaining during Clinton's presidency they you must have been deaf for 8 years. They republicans ripped him to shreds worse than any president in history. Shit, even today all of Bush's problems are blamed on Clinton.

      --
      Time makes more converts than reason
    203. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by DLR · · Score: 1
      The nation is more than just people, but it is "administered" by those who live in it. We need governance of rural areas as much as we need good governance of urban areas. Unfortunately those in urban areas don't understand all the issues facing those who dwell in rural areas, and vice versa.

      And you truely don't see how doing away with the Elecoral college would remove the last pretense of democracy from the U.S., do you? Or you just can't see anything beyond your "cause" and must respond sarcastically to anyone who disagrees with you.

      To make this clear to you, if the candidate of your choice doesn't win you aren't disenfranchised. You vote in the next election and hope your candidate wins then. If you live in an area who's votes never count (other than prison) then you are disenfranchesed. Now do you get it? Of course you can make a case that those who don't like Replicans or Democrats are disenfranchised since it's almost impossible to get a 3rd party (or non-party) candidate on the ballot, but that's another discussion. Or is it?

      --
      "Like fire and fusion, government is a dangerous servant and a terrible master."~RAH
    204. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by C10H14N2 · · Score: 1

      Do you know how many states had laws completely banning alcohol, before they supported the Prohibition amendment?

      As a matter of fact, I do. 23 out of 48, or 47% of the country. And even then they repealed it 16 years later at which point the federal government left regulation of alcohol to the states.

      Voila, thanks for making my point so utterly clear with such an excellent example of precedent.

      For further reading see: The Civil War.

    205. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Hmmm. Many of the people "accidently" banned from voting were black Democrats. At the same time, a large number of felons in Florida were pardoned and explicitly given the right to vote. I wonder if the majority of those were Republicans.


      It reminds me of a saying: The world is divided into the righteous and the unrighteous, with the righteous doing the dividing.

    206. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by frizik · · Score: 1

      If 4 years of bush hasn't convinced you then i don't think i have much chance

    207. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by divisionbyzero · · Score: 1

      Well, if it were direct elect it could have come down to one vote. So I'm not sure how it is any better? I would gladly have prefered that the coastal states and big cities that voted against Bush would have had more weight, but I'm not sure that it would have been more fair. Direct vote seems like the simple, obvious answer and therefore I'm suspicious of it.

    208. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by electroniceric · · Score: 1
      Just to stir the pot, why should you get to cast a direct vote for president if you haven't been paying much attention to his (or her eventually) work in the first place?
      Do you speak math-ese? That argument is invalid by the process of induction.
      If a random voter is unqualified to make a choice, why is he qualified to choose the man who makes that choice?

      I'd be hesitant to call that particular line of induction a proof. For example:
      If a shareholder is not qualified to make a budget and strategy for a company, why is she qualified to choose the CEO who does do this?

      My original point, which I'm still not entirely convinced of, was that:
      a) Hamilton's idea was not just have to the electors cast votes, but for them to analyze, debate and evaluate the candidate. As you point out the electoral college no longer serves this function. He presumably did not believe that the common person understood enough to make a considered choice.
      b) perhaps it's worth considering the merits of Hamilton's idea from a modern standpoint, where many voters don't follow politics or even world events enough to make a considered choice.

      I was not and am not endorsing the elitist nature of Hamilton's argument, just noting that a considered choice of president is a lot better than an ill-considered one, and comparing it to the problems associated with direct legislation.
    209. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by drew · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's a mix of people, of different parties. But one of those parties has the majority. In every state, there is always one party or the other with a majority of the legislature.

      of course there is always one party or the other with a majority. but which party often changes over time. it's not always the same party in the majority. plus, such a law wouldn't have to be passed by the state legislature. most states (and i know california is one of them) allow the people to vote laws into effect on the ballot. so even if the democrats control the state legislature, there are enough republicans in the state that such a measure could be approved, especially if they were upset enough about something to turn out to vote in higher numbers than the democrats.

      How can you imagine that any Democrat this year would be willing to give Bush the Whitehouse, just for the vague hope of encouraging a mildly fairer electoral system in the distant future?

      it wouldn't have to be in favor of the republicans. suppose a republican state was the first to break. texas may be too much to hope for, but what of the other southern states. florida is pretty evenly divided right now, and bush has alienated an awful lot of traditionally conservative voters as well as pissing off an awful lot of democrats. a proposal to split the electoral vote could be popular there. and at any rate, it's probably too late for this to happen in any states that haven't already started considering it, so invoking bush is probably not relevant.

      at any rate, states that usually go strongly one way or theother are not the states where this is likely to take hold. this isn't going to start out in states like california, new ork, texas or illinois. The places where this is going to start happening are in the swing states, where votors on both sides are more likely to get fed up with their state going all one way or all the other. states like colorado. and splitting the electoral votes a large swing state like florida or michigan right down the middle will have a much larger effect on the u.s. electoral system than splitting the votes of texas or new york 65/35.

      one of the reasons i think that this is more likely to change on a state by state basis is that states can pass laws either through the legislature or by referendum, where amendments must be approved by both congress and the state legislatures (which are more likely to be interested in maintaining the status quo). it's also a change that i believe could happen in our lifetime, because it can start happening right now.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    210. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it's totally vindicated the Electoral College in my eyes to have four years of Bush.

    211. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by redtoade · · Score: 1

      It is very difficult to follow your logic. You've approached the argument with a predetermined outcome, and then spend the remaining effort slapping random conclusion segments together.

      As eloquent as it is, your argument is not constructed using the standard "scientific method" that is taught to any U.S. public school grade schooler. Let's try to get back to that, shall we?

      Since a picture says a thousand words: 2004 general election by county

      So you're trying to tell me that if I were to change one of those counties from red to blue (ie. the Florida debacle), that Gore should have by all rights won the election? Give me a break!

    212. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2004? Ooops. Typo. Should be "2000 general election by county." Wouldn't wish THAT election on my worse enemy.

    213. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1
      Now that the furor has died down, I'm going to come out of the closet a little bit. I actually agree with much of what you've said here. American monarchists are as rare as hen's teeth, but we do exist and there are at least two more among my personal acquaintences. (Perhaps surprising given my nick here, but that's how it goes sometimes.) Part of my motivation for posting here was to get people to question their assumptions in a way they'd obviously never done, but another part was to test the depths of their indoctrination about democracy. The results were about what I expected. Some posters were very reasonable about it, some preferred to rest on their dogma and not apply much thought to the matter at all, and some like Minna Karai, were positively threatened by it. You know you're cutting close to the bone when simply asking some inconvenient questions evokes such a hostile response!

      It was a little distressing to see how many posters appear to have never read the United States' foundational documents. (As you point out, loyalty to the Constitution is a stabilizing influence but that becomes problematic when few know what the Constitution actually says.) None of them are very lengthy, and although the language is extremely florid by modern standards none of them are particularly difficult. That many of them haven't read some of the standard commentaries is also distressing, albeit less so -- they are fairly lengthy and written in the same idiom which can be extremely tiresome if you're not used to it. But for those who have not read the documents, and for those who have but have not understood them, it seems they've missed the point entirely. The founders of our nation were clear on what they believed to be the main purpose of government. In order to achieve that purpose they didn't adopt the republican model automatically, they did so after considering what other systems might fulfill that purpose and concluded this one did it best. The system they devised was in fact a good deal less "democratic" than that currently in place. They thought democracy a bad idea for national politics, and in fact the only federal offices to be filled by direct popular vote were the seats of the lower house of the legislature. This being the larger house, each member has proportionately the least power. The founders thought it unsafe for more powerful offices to be filled the same way. Popular vote was restricted to a more local scale.

      It appears that advancing the idea of monarchism in the US will be no more, and no less, difficult than I thought it would be. The challenge is twofold. First, Americans have been thoroughly propagandized that monarchy is an inherently inferior form of government. They believe this with remarkably little evidence to go on, but the idea has been hammered into them from a very early age and they're virtually incapable of questioning it. (It took me many years to notice that what I was reading in history didn't really support it at all.) The second point goes hand-in-hand with the first and is put in place by the same method: that "democracy" is an inherenly superior form of government. You've seen a natural corollary expressed here by many: the more democratic a system is, the better. What they have not been taught is this valuable lesson from history: that all democratic systems have been temporary, and have always reverted at some point to a monarchy, and that reversion is always accompanied by violence.

      Part of what drove me to become an out-and-out monarchist was a perception, raised by President Clinton's abuse of the executive order, that we were headed in that direction. I'd hoped that with a change in administration the abuses would end, but I see no sign of that. My hope is that if we could take the bull by the horns, so to speak, and by Constitutional means institute a monarchy before the crisis point was reached, the violent transition period could be avoided. We may well be a hundred years away from that point, but it's clearly not too soon to begin making an

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    214. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Ominous+Armed+Cow · · Score: 1

      It's not even worth arguing with someone who can only parrot sophmoric rhetorical reposts ("that's Dogma!") and double back on their own conclusions. ("High density states get more power, but I'll complain about rural people having disproportionate power"), -er no.

      There is a difference between not having as much say in selecting a president as a Texan and not being able to protect your state's interests. The former is not disenfranchisement because it in no way negates your state's (perhaps limited) role in selecting a national official, but the latter is serious in that it negates the rational for statehood and renders geographical differences and the way of life they promote indefensible. Please stop trying to blur distinctions by drawing relationships that don't exist.

      Sorry, Texas is worth more in Electoral votes than Ohio. You may have a fractionally smaller electoral vote, statistically speaking, but this is ignoring the very benefit of a winner take all system. If you are in the majority in a large state, your smaller electoral fraction means much more than the slightly larger fraction of a small state, because all of your state's electors will go to support your candidate, and that means the electors your minority would have chosen is still larger than the smaller states majority. This is why the people in the majority of a large state have more power, but the people in the minority have less. Wahh, cry me a river. That's why we call them elections. No Virginia, it is not unfair that people in the minority lose elections. They can move if they don't like it. It is a free country, after all.

      Let's also not pretend that we live under free market capitalism, because we don't and the legistlature makes all sorts of claims as to what it can regulate for all sorts of activities. If you don't think that one part of the population can politically dominate another and sap it dry without any recompense, than I suggest you look at your latest paycheck, specifically under the boxes which contain Federal taxation, Social Security, Medicare, and any other programs for which you must work till June to pay for regardless of whether you use them, and for most of your life you will not. I suppose we could recoup these losses (just like the rural dwellers of your imagination) by overcharging the benefactors of the welfare state which demand them for all those goods they need, but mainly we only sell to those who have disposable incomes, so I doubt that's a winning proposition for us.

      I do not have to explain why we should be a federation of geographical states since you are the one arguing that it is nonsensical, but I will: There is, depite your fervent hopes, a very real, non-dogmatic difference between economics, which is 99.9% of the time a geographically based activity undertaken for survival, and identity traits which are affected matters of personal choice usually practiced in one's free time and often without regard to geographical location. (Perhaps you should look up the definition of 'dogma' while your looking up 'disenfranchisement'). You cannot jump to the conclusion that voters in Texas or California don't matter because the outcome appears to be obvious. If they didn't show up, it wouldn't be.

      Since the economic activity of the vast majority of economic participants IS geographically based, (a fact, not an dogmatic assertion) any government which ignored geographical interests would be a nothing more than centralized tyranny based on which arbitrarily demarcated group could breed faster.

      Since the people of these regional areas CHOSE to form regional governments and apply for statehood under a federal system which respected much of their independence and sovereignty under the 10th amendment, and they freely surrendered some of this sovereignty in exchange for a particular form of representation which guaranteed their relevance, it is reasonable to expect that this deal should be preserved, or else we should let these regions leave peacefully if we c

    215. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by DLR · · Score: 1
      Wow you really made a lot of assumptions about me without knowing a damn thing.

      You talk about the government's job as being the redistribution of resources. That's sounds like Socialism to me. I personally believe that people can handle their own resources much better than the the government does, and with considerably less pettiness. For example, President Clinton shutdown the superconducting supercolider in Texas because TX didn't vote for him. Was this good for the country, or just petty revenge? I'll tell you what I think, the U.S.'s strength has been in science and technology for the better part of the last century and we're seeing that evaporate because of decisions like that one and other's that are "good for business" like H1B's and offshoring (both parties are guilty on all counts here, lest you think I'm a fan of Pres. Bush II). So much for the government being consistent in the distribution of resources. But is that what gets your vote, thinking that you'll get a bigger piece of the pie if a candidate who's favorable to your state is elected?

      That's the worst study I've ever seen. Amazingly meaningless. Google doesn't mean shit. Try googling for "liberal" and "conservative". That will tell you...nothing...again. The millions of hits could be anything, bloggers that no one reads, dead pages, spoofs. Who knows? Google is evidence of nothing and doesn't represent all media.

      Granted it's a ad hoc study, but I weeded out the worst of the false positives. I see it offended you anyway. It still makes a very clear point. The media feels that "right wing" is a valid polical label but that "left wing" isn't. If you are objective this will tell you of a bias in the media. Searching for Liberal and Conservative won't show as much bias because those terms are not emotionaly charged, although it will show some because the liberal media believes they are moderate.

      I searched one mainstream media site, I invite you to search any mainstream media site of your choice with the search engine of your choice. You'll find no real difference between your results and mine. I know because I've done this before, different sites and search engines. I just do it again every time so I can post more recent results.

      --
      "Like fire and fusion, government is a dangerous servant and a terrible master."~RAH
    216. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by magfrump · · Score: 1

      Just to point out something--Rhode Island wasn't even at the constitutional convention. The senate was dubbed the "Connecticut Compromise" for reasons I hope I don't have to spell out; this however was also a continuation from the articles of confederation, emphasizing your point...
      I'd also like to point out that, as the constitution was a minority federalist movement at the time written by and in large part for the upper class, I would think that while those in favor of direct democracy will have to be able to support their arguments politically, I would give them the moral high ground philosophically... thought maybe that's just me and my indoctrination. ^^

    217. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by magfrump · · Score: 1

      I understand and invite anyone to ridicule this answer, as I do not plan on making a logical argument, but to make allusions from my history class. I really should know better, but...

      Thomas Jefferson did specifically state that he believed that the rural population had an inherent moral advantage; possibly because of the work ethic and simplicity necessary for such a lifestyle. This was said in an America with a 90-95% majority of rural population however, and I admit might have changed (thought the same could be said about the constitution with a little... well, with a hell of a lot more argument).
      Personally, I have more confidence in Thomas Jefferson, and that Madison would agree, than I do in Hamilton who wrote the federalist papers and supported monarchy.

      Also, I would like to support the views of intelligent Americans, by posting short tests on the outsides of voting... places (it's late, sorry).
      1. Who are the candidates, and which party is each in?
      2. What are some of the issues? What are the candidates stands on them?
      3. What is the biggest issue this election?
      4. Do you actually have to answer any of these questions to vote?

      anyone who actually knows the answer to the last question (i.e. anyone with any awareness of politics at all) would realize that the 'test' was meaningless, but maybe less stupid people would vote. Maybe...

    218. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by dajak · · Score: 1

      Part of what drove me to become an out-and-out monarchist was a perception, raised by President Clinton's abuse of the executive order, that we were headed in that direction.

      In 'constitutional monarchies ' like mine -- the Netherlands -- the word 'monarchy' is typically not used. We are a kingdom, or more accurately a democracy with a king (as long as the people want it). To me systems like the French or US system, with its concentration of power in the hands of the leader is a real (but sofar non-hereditary) monarchy in the literal sense.

      The Clinton episode was interesting because it illustrates that 1) parliament's mandate is limited by the separate democratic mandate of the leader -- they hardly dare to send home an executive government (as opposed to the Netherlands), and 2) the demands made of the leader by the people involve values that we would demand of the king (sexual morality in this case), but never the prime minister (whose private life is unknown, not cared about, and considered off-limits by the media).

      The 'first lady' phenomenon is unknown to us wrt. political leaders. Also the practice of electing democratic office holders from one family (Bush, Kennedy, Roosevelt) is odd to us. The US certainly has monarchical tendencies and the office of president represents a dangerous concentration of power at the top. In contrast the constitutional monarch is severely limited, even to the point of denying basic rights such as freedom of expression (of private political opinions) and choosing whom you marry without permission from parliament.

      The king is also a kind of walking addendum to the constitution in the Netherlands, being the descendant of the father of the fatherland, William of Orange, and other Oranges that risked or lost their life to defend their flock, and the embodyment of the values they supposedly stood for (such as religious tolerance, consensus-building, perseverance, and sacrifice for the public cause).

    219. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Well, if it were direct elect it could have come down to one vote. So I'm not sure how it is any better?

      ANY election can come down to one vote, if everything is evenly split except for that one. But greater the number of total votes, the less probable it is that one single vote will matter.

      Prehaps more importantly, if there's one big election, then all votes count the same. If Gore had somehow gotten 10,000 more votes in both Texas and Massachusetts, they wouldn't have helped him at all regarding the 500 votes he needed in Florida. If some votes are A LOT more powerful than other, then it's obvious that the system is unfair.

      (Some can argue that unfairness is good, but that's a separate discussion)

    220. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      You never touched my fundamental point: A state deciding to split it's vote will be weakening it's own power on the national level. Why would any state do this, unless they knew that all the other states would be weakened at the same time?

      but which party often changes over time. it's not always the same party in the majority.

      Irrelevant. On any single day, one party is in power. The majority party will not want to reduce it's national influence, and the minority party will not be able to.

      there are enough republicans in the state that such a measure could be approved,

      No there aren't. The state is mostly Democrat, and both parties will have the same motivation for turnout (helping their Presidential candidate).

      so invoking bush is probably not relevant.

      That's just an example from today. There will ALWAYS be a presidential campaign on the horizon, and the parties will ALWAYS think it's important.

      The places where this is going to start happening are in the swing states, where votors on both sides are more likely to get fed up with their state going all one way or all the other.

      What, and give up being swing states? They LOVE it. (Same way NH loves having an early primary) Sure, the public complain about how 50% of all the ads on TV are political, and they get 2 different voter-survey phonecalls per day... but those annoyances are a small price to pay for their inflated importance.

      Just look at the debate tonight. It's in Florida- why are both Bush and Kerry paying so much attention to Florida? Because it's a swing state. If Florida switched to allow split electoral votes, then do you think there'd be a debate there again? No, and no more Presidents would owe them pandered campaign promises anymore.

    221. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      As a matter of fact, I do. 23 out of 48, or 47% of the country.

      Math time! 47 and 66. Which one of those numbers is bigger? Good.

    222. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Untimely+Ripp'd · · Score: 1

      Never assume that sanity is a prerequistite for editing the Constitution! Just remember the 18th Amendment, which shows that even the most far-out lunacies can be elevated to the highest law. Good point. My Dad used to point out that if the Republicans hadn't jammed through the 2-term limit (in a spiteful, after-the-horse-is-out response to FDR's extended presidency) they could have had Eisenhower in office till the moment he dropped dead. True self-interest is not always obvious to the self.

      --

      And let the angel whom thou still hast serv'd tell thee ...

    223. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by divisionbyzero · · Score: 1

      It is far less likely to come down to one vote with the electoral college. That is why it is more stable which was my original point. Anyhow, I'm not really in favor of either of them, but I have a feeling that exchanging one for the other simply would be to exchange one set of inequalities for another.

      Unfairness might be considered good if it increases representativeness in a representative government, I suppose.

    224. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      It is far less likely to come down to one vote with the electoral college.

      That's completely backwards. It's far MORE likely to come down to one vote with the electoral college.

      Assuming the country is about evenly divided, the chance of it coming to one vote is 1/(N^2), where N= the number of votes counted at once. Per-state voting means N=5,000,000; while a single national election would have N=100,000,000. Consider the ^2 and it's not even close.

      Note that some people consider this fact a benefit, because it increases the chance that one vote will make a difference, providing increased incentive for everyone to vote. (But unfortunately, that incentive only applies in swing-states. Those in solid red/blue states are disinclined the same way)

    225. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by divisionbyzero · · Score: 1

      You are confusing the outcome of state voting with the outcome of national voting. Someone beling elected under direct vote would win the election if he or she received one vote more than the other person, where as under the electoral college the person would need to win by one vote in every state till the sum of required electoral votes in order to win the election were attained. The purpose of the electoral college is to make the election representative of the states' majority opinions, not the opinions of individuals.

    226. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes! Much!

      -Amused Floridian.

    227. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by drew · · Score: 1

      You never touched my fundamental point: A state deciding to split it's vote will be weakening it's own power on the national level. Why would any state do this, unless they knew that all the other states would be weakened at the same time?

      First of all, you are once again treating states as atomic decision making units, which they are not.

      Second, two states already made the decision to split their electoral vote a long time ago (maybe always? i'm not sure) and a third is about to vote on whether or not to do it. Whether or not they are big or small states is beside the point- you ask why any state would do it. Regardless of the why, the fact is it has happened, and may happen again soon. That is enough for me to believe it is possible for other states to do it as well.

      Finally, i have never stated that i believe this to be likely to happen. i have only said that i believe it is more likely to happen than a constitutional ammendment. if you believe that the only acceptable improvement to the electoral system is a constitutional ammendment, than i believe you are going to be disappointed in the electoral system for a long time to come. i will be in support of such a constitutional ammendment if one is proposed, but i will also gladly support other measures to improve the electoral system in the meantime.

      And, as a footnote...
      What, and give up being swing states? They LOVE it.

      Apparently, in at least one swing state there are a significant number of voters who would rather have their votes count toward the candidate they support than to have the candidates hold a televised debate in their state.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    228. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      You are confusing the outcome of state voting with the outcome of national voting.

      Nope. You, however, are trying to change the subject. I was talking about stability, and you're going off in all different directions.

      where as under the electoral college the person would need to win by one vote in every state till the sum of required electoral votes in order to win the election were attained.

      When someone posts something as stupid as that, I normally just stop responding, because such blatant idiocy is immune to reason. It's hard to believe that anyone who'd say that could follow even the simplified equations I'm using.

    229. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1
      You can say "kingdom" because you have one. In the case of the US where it doesn't exist, it seems more natural to speak in general terms.

      You're right that the US Presidency is a rather strange hodgepodge of an office that perhaps resembles medieval kingship more than anything else. I'm thinking specifically here of England, where I'm most familiar with the details. Parliament always held the purse-strings, and it wasn't unusual for an English king to find himself wanting desperately to fight a war but without funds to pay for it.

      The Clinton impeachment trial was a complex situation, but I don't really feel up to discussing the details at the moment; Four hours of sleep a night for the past week is starting to catch up with me. That's unfortunate, because it illustrates one of the serious problems with a particular Constitutional reform that was instituted almost 100 years ago that made our Congress more "democratic", but in so doing exposed the Senate to political influences from which it was supposed to be insulated. It was less a case of reluctance to unseat the "king" than it was pure partisan politics.

      I don't necessarily have a problem with concentrating power at the top, and I suspect I'd favor a system with a stronger king than yours is under your system. Perhaps that's just closer to what I'm used to, but I can also point to periods in history where this has worked very well indeed. The trick is to devise some way of choosing successors to office that guarantees -- or at least gives you a very good chance -- of a well-qualified ruler. (For example, the Roman Emperors from Nerva to Marcus Aurelius.) I will concede that this is hard to do.

      The "first lady" phenomenon comes of our President being both the head of state and the chief executive. The king must have a queen, after all, and the "First Lady", who has no official status, perhaps corresponds much more closely with a king's consort than our President does with your king. (Queen now, but you know what I mean.)

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    230. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by dajak · · Score: 1

      You can say "kingdom" because you have one.

      The word 'monarchy' means a system with power concentrated in one person. Our system is in many ways the opposite of that, concentrating power in the hands of elected colleges and mostly status to hereditary or Royally appointed (Her Majesty's Governor and the Mayor) offices at the top of the hierarchy. In emergency situations these people have real power, but in normal situations they are a kind of chairman (the queen chairing the Council of State, the highest administrative court).

      The king must have a queen, after all, and the "First Lady", who has no official status, perhaps corresponds much more closely with a king's consort than our President does with your king. (Queen now, but you know what I mean.)

      Our queen is actually 'King' according to the constitution. Luxemburg seceeded from the Netherlands on this semantic issue: they claimed that a 'King' can only be male according to Salic law and appointed another successor to king William III in 1890.

      For the first time in more than a century we will get a male king again, and he will automatically become Admiral and commander in chief of the armed forces when he is crowned. A leftover from 1890 that was never changed.

      Perhaps that's just closer to what I'm used to, but I can also point to periods in history where this has worked very well indeed.

      We switched systems several times between 1648 and now, and one historical observation that is obvious from our history is that the national debt was firmly under control only when we had a strong monarch. Another observation is that the Dutch army only wins wars when led by a strong monarch, that the Netherlands will automatically turn into a monarchy in wars that threaten its existence (1672, 1812), and that parliament will collaborate with an occupying enemy (Napoleon, Hitler) while the monarch organizes armed resistance from abroad.

    231. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by divisionbyzero · · Score: 1

      My point about representation of states' opinions rather than individuals' opinions is directly related to the issue of stability, political stability within the federal government. You arrogantly assumed that you knew what I meant by stability before I had a chance to define it as is my perogative due to the fact that it is my thesis that the electoral college is more stable.

      Your simplified equations were exactly the problem. They skew the problem too much in your favor and are not reprenstative of the actual facts, but clearly you are incapable of understanding fine distinctions and prefer to stick with your simplistic notions.

      However for the record I was wrong when I wrote that the person would need to win by one vote in every state. The number of total possibilites would be based on the lowest sum of the populations in terms of voters for the states that have enough combined electoral votes to secure the presidency squared which indeed has a higher probability than someone winning the presidency by one vote in a direct vote situation. My argument was with your simplification and your understanding of stability, not your conclusion.

      Funny, I thought one of the signs of intelligence is the ability to have a civilized discussion in the pursuit of truth. Obviously you are not interested in finding the truth, but rather in getting people to accept that you are right, and
      when people refuse to acknowledge your supposedly self-evident truth you become hostile because you feel threatened and attempt to bully them into accepting you conclusions by insulting them. Clearly you misunderstood me, but instead of asking for clarification you saw fit to insult me. All for the purpose of aggrandizing your own pathetic ego, but this is Slashdot so what else should I expect?

      Perhaps one day you will grow up and realize how ridiculous your arrogance and disdain make you look to others that are actually intelligent. You may even gain some humility and feel badly for how you have behaved, but until you do so do not bother replying to my post. This "conversation" is over.

    232. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1
      We switched systems several times between 1648 and now, and one historical observation that is obvious from our history is that the national debt was firmly under control only when we had a strong monarch.

      And some snippage.

      It sounds like a very sensible arrangement, but I clearly need to read more Contintental history.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    233. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Eskarel · · Score: 1
      I really don't think this would happen. I live in Wisconsin, which is a bit of an unusual state voting wise I suppose. Here you essentially have a few largish cities which are on the whole liberal(Milwaukee has had socialst mayors not infrequently, and IIRC Nader beat Bush in the last election in Madison) and a lot of country side which is largely republican. We end up a swing state because here the total population of each group is roughly the same.

      No politician is going to be stupid enough to entirely ignore the countryside. It would leave the entire rural to anyone who spent even the slightest bit of time paying attention to them.

      In addition if this was a problem it's not going to get much worse, campaigning in todays world is essentially a couple of gratis vists to the places you know will vote for you and then attention to the various swing state in decending order of elecotral college votes. As I said I live the largest city in a swing state and I'm betting I've had more opportunities to see each of the presidential candidates in person than most of the American people, they're here every other week or so.

    234. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by cbr2702 · · Score: 1
      Fewer than 6 words of the Federalist Papers have any bearing to the topic under discussion, and they are parenthetical. (They are in the 8th paragraph, by the way).

      Any reference to the "8th paragraph" of the federalist papers is entirely meaningless. The papers as we know them are a collection of letters and articles published anonymously (by Jefferson, Madison and Hamilton most likely). So there is no such thing as the "8th paragraph". Additionally, very few people have read all of them, and unless you have, your claim as to the number of words on this topic is not very believable.

      --


      This post written under Gentoo-linux with an SCO IP license.
    235. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Who cares? One state is not a whole state." ~ Teresa Heinz Kerry

    236. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Hard_Code · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't with the EC itself, it is with, as with voting in all other levels of government, plurality voting and winner-take-all. The EC votes should represent /proportionally/ the public opinion of their respective state. Except for just a couple of states, I think they are all winner-takes-all.

      --

      It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
    237. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by ebresie · · Score: 1

      I think you misspoke regarding slaves representing 3/5th...might find this link interesting. The short of it is, the 3/5th representation was to help the North to avoid the South from having the populous vote due to the larger number of slaves being considered in respect to taxation.

      Regarding your second items...If a majority of the distribution of the population occurs in a minority of the region (majority of the population in New York, California, etc), with those regional people having a common believe (whether it be on the environment, on transportation, on welfare, etc), that does nothing for those in the other regions without the same criteria. Educations is probably a good one. If you distribute education money based on population, then all the money would go to the big cities and the small towns and lesser populated states would continue to have a failing education system for lack of funding..

      --

      Eric B
      ebresie@gmail.com
    238. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't with the EC itself, it is with, as with voting in all other levels of government, plurality voting and winner-take-all.

      Sigh. One more time: The EC causes states to be winner-take-all.

      The EC rules allow each state to decide how to chose electors. Given
      (a) that a state can either give them all to one candidate, or split between candidates
      (b) each state is controlled by one political party (at a time)
      (c) the party controlling a state's legislature is almost always the one that the people will vote for for president
      (d) members of the same party support each other

      Why would a state ever decide to split it's vote? The Democrats/Republicans controlling California/Texas know that splitting their vote will make it easier for the hated Bush/Kerry to win- so why would they willingly do that?

    239. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      You arrogantly assumed that you knew what I meant by stability

      Alright, I'm sorry that I used words according to the definitions of the English language.

      I should've concentrated harder with my psychic powers to intuit that you said one thing and meant another.

      before I had a chance to define it as is my perogative due to the fact

      You had that chance 5 posts ago. If you want to make up new definitions for words, at least tell people about them beforehand.

    240. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by Hard_Code · · Score: 1

      "Why would a state ever decide to split it's vote?"

      When a federal law demands it maybe?

      --

      It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
    241. Re:18-35 #1 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM: by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      Therefore, it makes perfect sense that the majority of the voters in this country be the ones to make the decision as to who that person is.

      It would make sense, if in fact the USA were a democracy. It happens to be a representative federal republic, and has been so since 1789. It should be no surprise to you, then, unless, of course, you were born before that year.

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
  2. 18-35 #2 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by Roblimo · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Since we are living in an age where technology is becoming more and more advanced and people are getting more comfortable with the existence of computers, does any political party (democrat, republican, independent, or other) have any intention of trying to expand voting online? Assuming the rights of the voters are protected, I would gladly cast my vote online.

    1. Re:18-35 #2 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by orthogonal · · Score: 1

      Assuming the rights of the voters are protected, I would gladly cast my vote online.

      Assuming the moon was made of green cheese, I would eat it.

      Assuming Natalie Portman couldn't keep her hands off me, I'd do her.

      Assuming this gun isn't loaded, I'll gladly put it in mouth a and pull the *KA-Booom*

      Kid, you're assuming an awful lot -- and I'm almost convinced you don't deserve to vote given how readily you assume the unlikely or impossible.

    2. Re:18-35 #2 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      Alright who's the idiot who moderated #2 off-topic?

    3. Re:18-35 #2 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Alright who's the idiot who moderated #2 off-topic?

      If you don't want to remove a question from the list, you've got to down-mod it somehow. Out of 50 questions, only 12 can remain. Since this Q isn't something that either candidate likely has something informative to say about, isn't it better to call it "Off-Topic" than "Redundant" or "Troll"?

    4. Re:18-35 #2 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 2, Funny

      Assuming the moon was made of green cheese, I would eat it.

      Assuming the rights of the customers are protected, I would gladly buy books online.

      Oh wait! They are, and I do!

    5. Re:18-35 #2 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by FosterKanig · · Score: 0, Funny

      Assuming Natalie Portman couldn't keep her hands off me, I'd do her.

      Or assuming you could knock her unconscious when no one is around. Don't limit your options.

    6. Re:18-35 #2 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by Raffaello · · Score: 1

      If a hacker compromises Amazon and gets your credit card number, by law, you are liable for only $50.00, no matter how high the fraudulent charges are. In all probability, Amazon would cover even that small amount. You would get a new credit card, and buy books online again.

      If a hacker compromises a Diebold voting machine that you cast your vote on, YOU LOSE YOUR VOTE. Irretrievably. No recount. No court case. The election has simply been stolen.

      Combine that with the fact that Amazon are way better than Diebold at securing their systems, and you'd see why your parent considered secure electronic voting such a pipe dream given current implementors, their political ties, and their "contributions" (i.e., bribes) to those in decision making positions.

    7. Re:18-35 #2 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      YOU LOSE YOUR VOTE

      My one vote is worth a LOT less than $50. A $1 contribution my favorite candidate would help him more than my vote.

      The election has simply been stolen.

      You said compromises a voting machine. That's not really enough to take the whole election.

      Combine that with the fact that Amazon are way better than Diebold at securing their systems,

      That's backwards. If Amazon is doing it now and Diebold is not, that does nothing to prove that Diebold can't do it. In fact, by showing that doing it right is possible, Amazon has helped Diebold.

      parent considered secure electronic voting such a pipe dream given current implementors

      He said they were "impossible", with no qualifiers as to current efforts.

      And frankly, if you think that in 30 years anyone besides solitary paranoiacs will use non-Internet voting, then you're the one with a pipe dream.

    8. Re:18-35 #2 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about "overrated", everybody's favorite "don't metamoderate me!" mod ;)

    9. Re:18-35 #2 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by drawmack · · Score: 1

      There are numerous problems with opening electronic voting. First of all I can't think of a single programmer or comapany who wants to be responsible for the security precautions necessary for that. Second of all technology has not been around long enough for the general public to be comfortable enough with it to allow online voting. Which means it would most likely loose more votes then it garnered. Thirdly you loose the social aspects of voting which many Americans enjoy and even list as the main reason they vote.

    10. Re:18-35 #2 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by The-Bus · · Score: 1

      This kind of question is a bit meaningless. I don't think "being able to vote online" should be in the top 100 questions asked to candidates, let alone top 20. Just my opinion.

      --

      Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.

    11. Re:18-35 #2 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by Vague+but+True · · Score: 1

      Good question: pushing tech to the spotlight. It should have been modded higher, a '2' doesn't do this question justice.

      --

      I'm not a doctor, but I play one in bed.

    12. Re:18-35 #2 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Kid, you're assuming an awful lot -- and I'm almost convinced you don't deserve to vote given how readily you assume the unlikely or impossible.

      Just because you are too stupid to think up a way to vote online and still preserve voter rights doesn't mean it isn't possible.

    13. Re:18-35 #2 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by pants1973 · · Score: 1

      Dude, you're responding to Rob 'Roblimo' Miller - not a 'kid'. If you don't know who that is - go look him up.

  3. 18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by Roblimo · · Score: 0, Troll

    To me as a young voter this is the most discouraging aspect of trying to stay involved in the political process: my elected representatives make laws that represent my views as a citizen (and the majority of my fellow citizens), only to be overturned by a judiciary not elected by me or my fellow citizens who wield their power from the bench to promote their own political and social agendas. Why should I vote?

    1. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      dork... that means whatever you wanted was unconstitutional. they are protecting the minority, even if the majority wants it.

    2. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by orthogonal · · Score: 1, Insightful
      To me as a young voter this is the most discouraging aspect of trying to stay involved in the political process: my elected representatives make laws that represent my views as a citizen

      So you're a young voter who
      • doesn't smoke pot,
      • drives slowly
      • isn't worried about paying for college
      • and stands to benefit from tax cuts for the wealthiest 1%?
      Because that's what your "representatives" are voting for: more drug laws, more prisons, and more corporate wealfare.

      And your biggest worry isn't getting laid, or getting into a good school, getting a decent job when you graduate or avoiding having to join the Army and go to Iraq, it's the gasp unelected judiciary "promot[ing] their own political and social agendas"?

      Come the fuck on!

      Is there anyone reading the parent post who thinks it wasn't written by Karl Rove or Jerry Falwell and then pressed into this "young voter's" sweaty palm by rich Daddy, who told him, "now go out and make Dubya proud"?

      Don't piss down my leg and tell me that it's raining, frat boy.
    3. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by stallard · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think perhaps a polite answer would be "you need to read up on the separation of powers and why the system is setup that way. The judges are given life apointments so that they can concentrate on upholding the law and constitution, not making people happy."

      --
      You know you like it.
    4. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by hackwrench · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Who moderated this redundant and why? They should give everyone unlimited modpoints for this topic as well as not take them away for posting.

    5. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd assume what's trying to be said with the moderation is: it's a stupid question. If I had mod points, I'd probably be giving it a Flamebait modifier.

    6. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by balaam's+ass · · Score: 1

      It's not clear to me why this comment was modded redundant OR flamebait (ad hominem attacks by "orthogonal" notwithstanding).

      The judicial usurpation of politics is a serious issue which I haven't really seen addressed in other posts, and is of interest to liberals and conservatives alike.

      Given the power of the judiciary lately, and the potential for the upcoming president to select up to 2 Supreme Court justices (which WAS covered in an earlier post), not only the CHOICE of these particular judges, but the presidential candidate's attitude toward this problem is of grave importance to many of us. i.e. it is not merely where candidate's choice of judges stand on current issues, but on their view of the separation of powers in general.

    7. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You think he's a tool of the right because he isn't a junkie and obeys traffic laws?? I'm getting more $$ for college now than I did when a Democrat was president. I got a tax cut, I'm nowhere near the top %1. Probably closer to just above poverty level. More rich people vote Democrat than they do Republican, at least as a couple years ago (2002, 2003). Your assumptions (he didn't say ANYTHING you're attacking him on) about your parent poster make you seem like a tool of the left.

      Elect Kerry, you'll see that drugs won't be legal, you'll still get speeding tickets when you drive like a jackass, college will still be expensive as hell. And if you're so mad at the top %1, Kerry and Edwards are worth more sepratly than Bush and Cheney together.

      How about taking control of your life rather than blaming the government, corporations, and rich people for everything. If your worried about getting a good job when you graduate, I suggest dumping the narcotics habit.

    8. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I'm 26 and last year I made $26,000. I recieved a $300 check from the US government, in addition to a $500 refund.

      The year before I owed $125.

      My filing status didn't change.. and I used the same tax software (and haven't gotten audited.. hehe)

      So what's with this tax cut for the wealthiest 1% bullshit people keep spewing?

    9. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by AvantLegion · · Score: 1
      >> and stands to benefit from tax cuts for the wealthiest 1%?

      No, he understands that he used to pay an income tax rate that was about 9% higher than he is now, and all the chest-pounding idiocy of "top 1% tax cuts" doesn't change the fact that he's paying less than before.

      Unless he's poor. Then he's paying 16% less.

      But how dare Bush extend the cuts to the rich too. Because of that, he should obviously vote for the guy that wants to take that 9% away. THAT'LL LEARN 'EM!!

    10. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many people feel that the Judges need a course on the Seperation of Powers.

      I am pro-abortion (not pro-choice, pro-abortion) and I still realize that Roe v Wade was an UnConsitional violation of the Seperation of Powers.
      Right end, wrong means.
      I mean read the book "The Brethern" where the judges are quoted as saying that they knew they wouldn't vote no, because they'd have had to go back to their wives & daughters. So, they started with an emotional decision and ignored the Consitution.
      Justice Blackmun started pulling evidence (from medical textbooks) never admitted in the lower courts in order to come up with the opinion. Pulling new evidence in on appeal (which all SC cases are) is a big judicial no-no.
      Once again, right end, wrong means.

      There are plenty of decisions where the Judge had an opinion and came up with whatever reasons justified that opinion.
      Any course in Con Law will teach you that many decisions, especially Equal Protection, are way the Hell all over the map. No rhyme or reason. The only way some of that makes sense is if you start with a bias and then enforce it.
      I mean you can play the strict scrutiny test game, but that only tells you who is likely to win or lose, not what the judges f'ed up reasoning is going to be.

      Most people think that judical opinins are like a math problem. You start with a set of facts, Apply the formula. Show your work, and an answer pops out.
      It doesn't work that way. Often judges tell their clerks (recent law school grads) who they want to win. The clerks then write the decisions and submit them to the judges for approval. The judge may do some cursory edits, but on the whole the clerks write the opinions, not the Judges.

      Also, Marbury v Madison was a case were the SC refused to take additonal power (part of why MvM is brilliant). Now MvM is cited as an excuse to grab as much power as possible.

    11. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ohhhhhhh... a WHOLE 26K! I see that you're doing GREAT under BUSH!

      BTW, your "tax cut" was eaten up by Bush's higher oil prices, and all of us, plus future generations will be paying off Bush's insane spending for years.

    12. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That just shows that you are a narrow minded, intolerant bigot that believes the 1st Amendment shouldn't apply to anyone you disagree with, NOT that the moderation was correct.

    13. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All political topics are automatically flamebait.

    14. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by powerg3 · · Score: 1
      How about taking control of your life rather than blaming the government, corporations, and rich people for everything.

      You know, I'm really sick and tired of hearing this from conservatives. As if liberals are incapable of taking control of their own lives or have nothing better to do than to sit around and talk shit about the government and corporations.

      I would like to hold my elected officials accountable for what I perceive as their failings. I'd like to do the same for our corporate executives too, like those involved in the Enron scandle. Have I got better things to do? Probably, but damnit, I just happen to give a crap!

      When John Kerry is president next year, and he raises your taxes*, something tells me you won't be singing this tune of "taking control of your own life rather than blaming the government", but rather screaming bloody murder when you don't get your $300 check in the mail.

      *John Kerry will probably not raise your taxes.

      --
      Wild Eeep!
    15. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by mod_parent_down · · Score: 1
      doesn't change the fact that he's paying less than before

      Oh, yeah. Spend like it's free. Republicans.

      Medicare? Sure, only $400 billion (oh it passed? yeah, actually it's closer to 550 billion). Iraq, $200 bil, so far. How about another 400 bil (no no no, it's on its way down) in federal and 600 bil per year in the trade deficit (Please, China, let our currency fall!). Those are the dirty little secrets of conservative leaders...

      The question you have to ask yourself is "Am I getting my share of the profits?" If it's just a $500 refund check, then your children would like to kill you.

    16. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by jadavis · · Score: 1

      and stands to benefit from tax cuts for the wealthiest 1%

      Heck, why not make taxes 100%? After all, 44% of American households don't pay federal income tax, so it's not costing those people anything at all. They can just vote the actual taxpayers' money away 'til the cows come home.

      The fact is, taxes on "the rich" (usually just normal people at their peak income-producing years) need to be somewhere between 0 and 100%. People differ on what that number should be, so it seems obvious to me that the number may be lowered, and if it is lowered, it's not automatically bad. Remember that it's a tax break, not a gift from the government (a critical distinction: a tax break encourages investment, a gift just buys votes).

      So, if you make a credible argument that the taxes on "the richest 1%" are too low now, and that those taxes should be raised, I will respect that. But I will not automatically assume that a tax break is bad.

      You make some good points about the reps though. In about 10 years I figure pot will be legal here in the U.S. in some form. It just can't be contained. Too many people do it.

      --
      Social scientists are inspired by theories; scientists are humbled by facts.
    17. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by The-Bus · · Score: 1

      (Replying to the grandparent): "To me as a young voter this is the most discouraging aspect of trying to stay involved in the political process: my elected representatives make laws that represent my views as a citizen."

      Laws like what? Patriot Act? Does that represent you?

      Then you, sir, are an asshole.

      (Replying to the parent): Your answer is correct, it seems like the question was scripted for such an answer.

      --

      Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.

    18. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh please, the judiciary has long had the power (roughly since Marbury vs. Madison) to overturn laws which it deems unconstitutional. The legislature has the power to enact laws, however, those laws must not cross the lines drawn by the US Constitution (or state Constitutions, in the case of state and local laws.) If the Constitution says that you may not regulate the color of clothing, and the Legislature passes a law regulating the color of clothing, it is within the judiciary's power to overturn that law.

      "Judicial activism", as it has come to be called, is nothing new - it's just become a hot topic because some politicians decided to push a moral agenda. Look back at the history of our country for a moment. Who was it who decided that racial segregation was unconstitutional? The courts. Who was it who started the legislative ball rolling on civil rights? The courts. The Supreme Court, especially, is constantly making decisions that overturn or restrict laws that violate our Constitutional rights.

      If Congress wants to pass laws that violate the Constitution, they do have the power to do so - by amending the Constitution. This requires a 2/3 majority of the Senate and House of Representatives, plus ratification by 3/4 of the states. If they take this route, they cannot be overturned by the courts. Yes, it's harder, but the founding fathers made it harder on purpose.

    19. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by Valegor · · Score: 1

      I think perhaps a polite answer would be "you need to read up on the separation of powers and why the system is setup that way. The judges are given life apointments so that they can concentrate on upholding the law and constitution, not making people happy."

      That is the problem, I have read up on the separation of powers and the courts currently are too powerful. Thier original power was to interpret the laws. Determining the Constitutionality of them was a power the Supreme Court took for itself after the fact. The problem is that judges are using thier personal views and not a logical view of the laws to base thier decisions. What is the point in Congress passing a law that the majority wants(like the no call lists) when a single non-elected judge can just throw it out? It is much easier to have a judge make the laws then getting them pushed through Congress so that is what is happening lately.

      As for the comment before about this not being an issue. It is not an issue if you agree with this crusade. Claiming that the only people that care about this issue are the priviledged and the Rublican is down right offensive. I am and always have been a dirt poor Independant. Both Republican and Demacrats make me sick and I feel that political parties are the worst thing that has ever happened to our political system. Everyone is screaming that only the rich benefitted from the tax cuts, well if that is the case how come all the rich people(ie Hollywood, Gates, etc) are Kerry supporters? If you do a tax cut based on percentages it only makes sense that the people that have paid the most in are also the ones that will get the most back. The rich pay a far greater percentage than the rest of us as a penality for being successful.

      isn't worried about paying for college

      Wrong again. I will be in debt until I'm 40 paying on student loans. I didn't qualify for a single grant because I'm a white male. How is that system fair when the majority is penalized for being the majority. Grants should be based on need and not race. Race should not factor in at all.

    20. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by Valegor · · Score: 1

      Excellant post. If I had mod powers I'd mod it up as insightful in a second.

    21. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by Vague+but+True · · Score: 1
      For the love of God. This was rated as a '3'. More and more people are asking why they should vote, yet political heads don't really answer the questions IF they decide to answer.

      This should have been modded as a '5'.

      --

      I'm not a doctor, but I play one in bed.

    22. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by ExMember · · Score: 1

      Thier original power was to interpret the laws. Determining the Constitutionality of them was a power the Supreme Court took for itself after the fact.

      The Constitution is law. In fact it is the "supreme law of the land" (Article VI, Clause 2). So when the courts interpret the Law, they have to take the Constitution into account. And the Constitution says that Congress can only pass laws to do certain things. If the law does something not allowed (like fine people who call phone numbers on a certain list), it is unconstitutional, and thus null and void.

    23. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by nanoakron · · Score: 1

      How is this a troll? I'd undenyably true...

      -Rob.

    24. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      That is the problem, I have read up on the separation of powers and the courts currently are too powerful. Thier original power was to interpret the laws. Determining the Constitutionality of them was a power the Supreme Court took for itself after the fact. The problem is that judges are using thier personal views and not a logical view of the laws to base thier decisions.

      The problem is Congress purposefully passing laws they believe to be unconstitutional in order to further a political agenda. The problem is the President that signs a law, knowing it is unconstitutional (and both parties have done it). Clinton was even quoted as saying that he was signing a law that he knew to be unconstitutional because half was good and half was bad, but unconstitutional so the courts could strike it down and keep the good part.

      If it were up to me, I'd try him for treason based on those statements, as well as every congressman that voted for it (and it was bi-partisan).

      When the Executive and Legislative branches purposefully push things they believe to be unconstitutional for political reasons, who do you think is left to protect the people? Only the people that are appointed for life to avoid political pressure.

      Wrong again. I will be in debt until I'm 40 paying on student loans. I didn't qualify for a single grant because I'm a white male. How is that system fair when the majority is penalized for being the majority. Grants should be based on need and not race. Race should not factor in at all.

      How is the system for admissions fair when a white male with crappy grades can get into Yale because the nearly-all-white-male alumni have a say in the admissions, but a black student with better grades can't get in because his daddy didn't go to Yale?

      Perhaps if you took some deep breaths and looked at the big picture, you wouldn't be so bitter. Yes, in a perfect world, grants would be need based. However, we don't live in a perfect world. If we implimented only the things that worked in a perfect world, they wouldn't work here.

    25. Re:18-35 #3 ELECTION/VOTING REFORM by PMuse · · Score: 1

      Federal judges are the only people in high federal office who are free to ignore the money in politics as soon as they are appointed. They are the only people who must do what is right, rather than what is popular (or risk being overturned by a higher court). How on earth can this be discouraging to voters? Besides, voters do select judges by virtue of electing the president and senate that appoint them.

      Please drop this lousy question.

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
  4. 18-35 #4 AIDS: by Roblimo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Every day, 10,000 people die of AIDS, not only in Africa, but also in the U.S. and every country in the world. Many people say AIDS is the worst disaster the world has ever seen because it is killing millions of young people, and robbing the world of its future. While the U.S. is spending more to fight AIDS than ever before, we're still not nearing the minimal goals the UN has set for total global AIDS funding ($12 billion by 2005 and $20 billion for 2007). As President of the richest and most powerful country, what proportion of this $20 billion price tag are you prepared to meet? Also, regarding the $15 billion we've pledged to go toward HIV/AIDS programs in 15 of the world's hardest hit nations over the next 5 years, what will the U.S.'s role be in the other nations that are suffering from the AIDS crisis, and what can Americans do to ensure that the entire $15 billion of support pledged by our government goes towards fighting HIV/AIDS worldwide, regardless of who wins this Election?

    1. Re:18-35 #4 AIDS: by Jerf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Read this question out loud to yourself, slowly and clearly. It took me a full minute. Too long.

      It's getting modded as a troll, which may be unfair; that may be a reflection of the way it spends too much time leading the witness, so to speak. Yes, I assure you, both candidates will promise you anything you want after asking a question like that, and the 15 trillion I spend will be better spent than the 15 trillion the other guy would spend.

    2. Re:18-35 #4 AIDS: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I couldn't agree more. In fact, major contributions to the spread of AIDS are documented here, in a very gripping and emotional photo essay describing daily life in much of Africa.

    3. Re:18-35 #4 AIDS: by iamatlas · · Score: 1
      The plague killed unimaginable percentages of the european population some centuries ago. It's natures little way of saying "Whoa there! Maybe humans don't need to cover every inch of the Earth just yet!".

      Besides, the President is supposed to take care of foreign policy. Federal government doesn't do research well, nor does it very effectively dole out cash for such things. No need to waste a candidate's time on this.

    4. Re:18-35 #4 AIDS: by bofkentucky · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Here's an intersting idea, quarantine! It damn near worked for TB (until immunocompromised patients reappeared due to AIDS

      --
      09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
    5. Re:18-35 #4 AIDS: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Federal government doesn't do research well, nor does it very effectively dole out cash for such things"

      Are you serious? have you been living under a bridge for 70years? The federal governments spends piles of money very effectivley on research, both vian NIH and DOD. What do you even think NIH is?

    6. Re:18-35 #4 AIDS: by iamatlas · · Score: 1
      I didn't say the government hasn't done anything, I said it doesn't do these things well, specifically in the price-to-product ratio. Further, my point was that such issues are out of the mainstream of what a US President's responsibilities are, and should be. Let the President decide issue like this, and you get federal bans on stem cell research an a national brain drain of interested scientists to countries without bans. Last, I doubt many Slashdot readers have been living, period, for 70 years, much less living them under s bridge.

      So, my question for you: Do you seriously read and consider the point of view presented in posts, or automatically latch on to a detail to criticize without a look at the larger context? And if you claim the former, reply with an actual UID rather than AC so I and those who read carefuly can see your other comments to see what the truth is.

    7. Re:18-35 #4 AIDS: by veg_all · · Score: 1

      Yes, quarantine. And why not for the Japs, too? And Kentukians?

      Fuck yes!

      Score 2 interesting? Blaming AIDS sufferers for TB?
      Mods, what the hell are you smoking?

      --
      grammar-lesson free since 1999. (rescinded - 2005)
    8. Re:18-35 #4 AIDS: by mikefe · · Score: 1

      This really shouldn't be posted to slashdot.

      How many slashdotters even get the chance to contract it from *sex*? I mean, really...

      --
      There: Something at a specific location.
      Their: Owned by someone.
      Please make sure your english compiles.
    9. Re:18-35 #4 AIDS: by rjamestaylor · · Score: 1
      • Yes, quarantine. And why not for the Japs, too? And Kentukians?

        Fuck yes!

      No fuck, actually; haven't you learned about HIV by now?


      Jokes aside, here's a different view on Japanese Internment in the War with Japan. (No, it's not a white supremacist wondering where we went wrong letting them out!)

      --
      -- @rjamestaylor on Ello
    10. Re:18-35 #4 AIDS: by say · · Score: 1

      AND, to supplement this really important question:

      WHY is the UNAID at the moment (oh, since Bush got the presidential seat) demanding from the developing countries it supports that they can't do condom advertising? This leaves the UNAID with a lot of blood on its hands.

      --
      Roses are #FF0000, violets are #0000FF, all my base are belong to you
    11. Re:18-35 #4 AIDS: by TheCaptain · · Score: 1

      Yes, quarantine. And why not for the Japs, too? And Kentukians?

      Nice strawman. Now if you disagree with his idea, try actually refuting it instead of twisting it in hopes of trivializing it.

    12. Re:18-35 #4 AIDS: by beanlover · · Score: 1

      How about monogamous relationships for everyone? While this may not totally erradicate HIV/AIDS it would drastically reduce the number of infected in just one generation of people...and it doesn't cost anything (from the government...individuals have to make a choice to do the right thing).

    13. Re:18-35 #4 AIDS: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ummm, how about let AIDS kill all the dumb people who are willing to have unprotected sex with random people. how about letting all the needle sharing shitheads die of AIDS. how about letting AIDS kill off all the people too stupid not to go get tested with their new partners before making the decision to have sex. My current fiancee and I did that, got tested, then started having sex. we managed in other ways until the results came back, no it wasnt romantic, it was realistic, it was safe, we'll survive, not die of AIDS. do you think its really destroying our future or is it just kinda preening the dumb people. now i'm not saying i'm not for education, especially in forgiegn countries, but in America, there are really very few people with an excuse, you should know about AIDS and you should know how dangerous it is.

    14. Re:18-35 #4 AIDS: by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1
      And why not for the Japs, too?

      Because "the Japs" aren't a contagious and deadly disease.

      Blaming AIDS sufferers for TB?

      Noone said anything about blame, unless you describe all causal relationships you don't like in that way.

      From http://www.health-dictionary.com/aids-hiv_term_det ails/Tuberculosis_Tb:

      If the body's immune system is impaired because of HIV infection, aging, malnutrition, or other factors, the TB bacterium may begin to spread more widely in the lungs or to other tissues. TB is seen with increasing frequency among HIV-infected persons. [...] Extrapulmonary TB infections are more common among persons living with HIV.

      The grandparent didn't say that people infected with AIDS created TB, but it is reasonable enough to conjecture that if TB is growing more quickly within that population, then they're more likely to have it (and therefore to spread it) than other groups.

      It's not a matter of blame, or finger pointing, or name calling, but of fact: TB is coming back with an attitude largely due to its prevalence among people with AIDS. Read the definition of largely before coming up with uncommon counterexamples to "prove" me wrong.

      Finally, if you look at the AIDS epidemic strictly as a biology problem, and started aggressively quarantining infected persons back in the '80s, then it would probably no longer exist. I'm not advocating such an action, but while people debate whether it would be morally wrong, you have to admit that it would've worked. Same goes for TB, and I don't think it's wrong to discuss any possible course of action to prevent the further spread. Part of the act of brainstorming is to mention every idea, whether good or bad, and weigh them in order to develop an effective plan. Debate is never a bad thing.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    15. Re:18-35 #4 AIDS: by veg_all · · Score: 1

      Hmm. OK, I certainly agree with your last assertion. I wasn't trying to prove you wrong, just erupting rashly to a casually deployed provocative declaration. This can be rubbed down some very brass tacks rather quickly. I suppose I start from the premise that quarantine/detention is always (always) a bad first answer. Life is life, and includes within itself death. If in order to protect life from death or disease you deny others the ability to live their life (with its inherent exercise of liberty), you are making choices about one life being more valuable than onother, no? Is that anyone's choice to make? Put it another way, start locking people up, and the terrorists have already won. ;-)

      (You make some good points. Sorry to be so terse; I really should be working!)

      --
      grammar-lesson free since 1999. (rescinded - 2005)
    16. Re:18-35 #4 AIDS: by Erioll · · Score: 1
      veg_all wrote:
      ...you are making choices about one life being more valuable than onother, no?

      I wouldn't say that. Rather, you are saying "I am going to detain a few lives, and possibly ruin said lives to save thousands/millions more." It isn't saying that the lives with the disease are less valuable, it is saying that if you have to ruin 5000 lives, or millions, which is preferrable? To put it another way, are those people so much MORE valuable that they MUST be allowed to go around infecting others rather than saving the lives of everybody else?

      The flip side of this as well is would this debate even occur if this disease killed you quickly? If you were infected, and died in let's say a month, then this would be considered a much more serious disease than it is now, even if the method of transmission remained the same (blood, intercourse). Remember that AIDS is 100% fatal. We can now extend people's lives greatly, but it is still fatal with no cure. It is only because it kills SLOWLY that this debate is even occuring which actually makes the disease even WORSE than one that kills fast, since it will infect even MORE people than if it killed quickly.

    17. Re:18-35 #4 AIDS: by veg_all · · Score: 1

      Remember that AIDS is 100% fatal.

      So is life.

      My best friend has been HIV positive for almost a decade now. You'll never convince me that your (hypothetical) risk of contracting TB is sufficiently grave that his (real) freedom.

      --
      grammar-lesson free since 1999. (rescinded - 2005)
  5. 18-35 #5 CIVIL LIBERTIES/JUSTICE by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In the next four years we will see the appointment of possibly (2) new Supreme Court justices. My question to the candidates is this: I understand that your decision could justifiably change tomorrow, but, if you had to appoint someone to the Supreme Court today - on this very day - who, specifically, would that person be and why?

    1. Re:18-35 #5 CIVIL LIBERTIES/JUSTICE by buttahead · · Score: 4, Insightful

      this question is way too "iffy". rephrase it:

      In the next four years we will see the appointment of possibly two new Supreme Court justices. Who would you appoint to the Supreme Court and why? If you don't have a name... describe the qualities that you would seek and why you seek them.

    2. Re:18-35 #5 CIVIL LIBERTIES/JUSTICE by TheMCP · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Selection of a supreme court justice is usually done after an extensive search and selection process. Any off-the-cuff answer the candidates might give would be meaningless.

    3. Re:18-35 #5 CIVIL LIBERTIES/JUSTICE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe Bush would appoint some Constitutionalist judges... oh, wait, he already has, they're just being blocked by the minority Democrats in a petty partisan disgrace in which they twist facts.

    4. Re:18-35 #5 CIVIL LIBERTIES/JUSTICE by aggieben · · Score: 1

      I like this question, particularly the "why" part.

      --
      Don't become a regular here, you will become retarded. -- Yoda the Retard
    5. Re:18-35 #5 CIVIL LIBERTIES/JUSTICE by Morganic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is an entirely unrealistic question, and should be modded down. I'd love to know the answer as much as the next person, but no politician can name appointments' names before the time comes. Just not gonna happen.

      As a secondary complaint, the title "CIVIL LIBERTIES/JUSTICE" only peripherally pertains to the question itself. It should carry a more accurate title, like "SUPREME COURT APPOINTMENTS".

    6. Re:18-35 #5 CIVIL LIBERTIES/JUSTICE by ryanvm · · Score: 1

      No amount of surgery is going to rescue this question. I can tell you right now what the answer would be from either candidate:

      "I would appoint someone who is non-partisan and fair. Blah blah blah..."

      Let's ask questions that require them to take a position on an issue and explain it. Not some vague question they can answer in their sleep.

    7. Re:18-35 #5 CIVIL LIBERTIES/JUSTICE by buttahead · · Score: 1

      I think that was menat to be a joke... yes, I meant "and why would you appoint said person".

      edit, edit, edit. don't trust my initial phrasing, just as I didn't trust theirs.

    8. Re:18-35 #5 CIVIL LIBERTIES/JUSTICE by aurelito · · Score: 1

      this is a pointless question to ask. there is absolutely no reason for either candidate to give a straightforward answer --

      first, because they don't neccessarily know. second, suppose they do -- any person either candidate endorses as a future leader is a liability insofar as he opens up the campaign for a new range of personal attacks.

      the answer will be something along the lines of "when the situation arrives, i will diligently pick someone who i can trust to uphold [insert values campaign is pushing])."

    9. Re:18-35 #5 CIVIL LIBERTIES/JUSTICE by hitchhacker · · Score: 1


      don't forget to include the "booya".
      thanks.

      metric

    10. Re:18-35 #5 CIVIL LIBERTIES/JUSTICE by buttahead · · Score: 1

      never forgotten.
      welcome.

    11. Re:18-35 #5 CIVIL LIBERTIES/JUSTICE by killjoe · · Score: 1

      Really there are only two factors.

      1) Choose a candidate that is willing to further your ideology.
      2) Choose a candidate that is of a minority so you can accuse the people who oppose him/her of racism/sexism/anti-semitic/anti-catholic/bigoted.

      Simple really.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    12. Re:18-35 #5 CIVIL LIBERTIES/JUSTICE by Toby_Tyke · · Score: 1

      If you don't have a name... describe the qualities that you would seek and why you seek them.

      Never, never allow a get out clause like that. It makes absolutly sure you will not get a meaningfull answer. Both candidates will simply say "Well, I don't have a name, but I would look for blah blah fair blah blah strong blah blah respects the constitution blah blah integrity " and other meaningless crap.

      A statement is only meaningful if you could have said the opposite. "I want a fair judge" is pointless, since no one would say they wanted an unfair one.

      Of course, you won't get a single straight answer anyway, but why make it easy for them to cop out.

      --
      "I realise this is not a very popular opinion but it's the truth, and there for needs to be said" -Bill Hicks
    13. Re:18-35 #5 CIVIL LIBERTIES/JUSTICE by front · · Score: 1

      Fecking hell Roblimo.

      Another +1 on that post.

      Gettem!

      cheers

      front

    14. Re:18-35 #5 CIVIL LIBERTIES/JUSTICE by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      In the next four years we will see the appointment of possibly (2) new Supreme Court justices. My question to the candidates is this: Please illustrate the two most important issues you would like to see revisited and overturned, and - without naming names - would your first and second choices for new Supreme Court Justices agree or disagree with the positions you've just described.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    15. Re:18-35 #5 CIVIL LIBERTIES/JUSTICE by Vague+but+True · · Score: 1

      Stupid question. It leaves the door wide open for a vague answer, and it won't be possible to rebutal it. Either canidate could say, "I'd appoint John Doe. Because I think he is the most qualified person for the job."

      --

      I'm not a doctor, but I play one in bed.

    16. Re:18-35 #5 CIVIL LIBERTIES/JUSTICE by PMuse · · Score: 1

      ...if you had to appoint someone to the Supreme Court today - on this very day - who, specifically, would that person be and why?

      You know that neither candidate will come anywhere close to answering this with a name, right? But, I love the question. How about modifying it this way to try to get an answer of some kind:

      ...in the nature of drafting a fantasy football team, if you had to select your fantasy Supreme Court team from all the past justices, who, specifically, would be your pick(s) and why?

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
  6. 18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Roblimo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There are thousands of deaths annually in the U.S. that are attributable to alcohol overdose. In addition, alcohol intoxication is associated with violent behavior. Yet alcohol remains widely available. Another common drug, marijuana, cannot kill by overdose, and does not cause violent behavior. In light of these facts, how will your administration rationalize the continued prohibition of marijuana, which is a less harmful drug?

    1. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by The+Pi-Guy · · Score: 1

      I dunno. I think the goal of this is to get opinions, not to persuade. Much as I agree with the questioner, I'm not so sure that this is appropriate for this forum.

    2. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by MacDork · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Additionally, could you explain why outlawing alcohol required an amendment to the constitution, yet no amendment is necessary to prohibit the use of marijuana and other illegal drugs.

    3. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by ktulu1115 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What do you conclude from the experience of Holland--a country where drugs fall under the jurisdiction of health agencies, not law enforcement--which has seen a decline in chronic use of hard drugs and casual use of soft drugs since de-criminalization?

      --
      # fuser -v /dev/attention | grep work
      #
    4. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Spyffe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think this is the best of the three questions on drug policy. Frankly, they are redundant and should be lumped into one question somehow.

      --
      Sigmentation fault - core dumped
    5. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Thunderstruck · · Score: 1

      Given the text of the 21st amendment to the United States' constitution which repealed prohibition, I don't know that the Federal government actually has the authority to regulate alcohol on that scale. As such, is this a question that really applies to presidential candidates?

      --
      Trying to use sarcasm in text-based forums does not work.
    6. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The answer is simple: ban alcohol.

      Thanks for your suggestion!

    7. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Spyffe · · Score: 1

      I seem unable to count. The fourth question (on financial aid) is distinct and I think if it passes it ought to be a separate question.

      --
      Sigmentation fault - core dumped
    8. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by FiloEleven · · Score: 1

      This is an incredibly relevant question that needs to be answered, as those of us who prefer the reefer as our drug of choice are having trouble getting rid of the stigma that's been attached to it/us. However, I doubt that either candidate will do much more than dodge the question. I'd love to see them try to defend themselves with solid facts, but in order to put them on the defensive we need to add legitimate facts and/or references that accurately portray the relative dangers of cannabis and alcohol. I'm aware of gov't studies and recommendations that have gone unheeded, but don't have the time to search for them. Any takers?

    9. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by FiloEleven · · Score: 2, Interesting

      VERY insightful addition. Though they may take the angle "use wasn't as widespread, therefore it wasn't as big a deal as alcohol." Of course, that puts one in the position of marginalizing minorities...hmm.

    10. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by ktulu1115 · · Score: 1

      At the risk of being modded offtopic:

      Unfortunately yes, both Bush & Kerry seem to evade the issue here. Thankfully, Michael Badnarik marks it as a main point in his campaign.

      Thankfully at least one candidate recognizes this importance of it.

      --
      # fuser -v /dev/attention | grep work
      #
    11. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by TheMCP · · Score: 1

      This is just an invitation for either or both candidates to spout traditional fallicies about "gateway drugs".

    12. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Jerf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Outlawing Alcohol didn't require an amendment, just as the proposed Family whatchamacallit act to define "family" doesn't. The point was that by putting it in the Constitution that it would be extremely difficult to slap down. Which is also the point of the Family amendment.

      It's like a law on Steroids. And that's why the Founding Fathers set the bar high for them; the 18th amendment is the clearest example of abuse in an otherwise fairly tolerable history (unless you semi-religiously believe that the Fed has no grounds to collect income tax :-) ).

    13. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by bofkentucky · · Score: 1

      Its not prohibited per say, its just that the IRS does not issue the necessary tax stamps to legally cultivate canabis.

      --
      09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
    14. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by LostCluster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's an easy one. Outlawing alcohol didn't require an admendment... a simple federal law would have done the trick. However, the forces that wanted prohibition were so overzealous they reached for the higher standard so that it'd be harder to overturn what they did. Too bad for them, that higher bar for clicking "undo" ended up getting met anyway.

    15. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by runderwo · · Score: 1

      It is absolutely prohibited as of the 1971 Controlled Substances Act. Before that point, it was possible to get tax stamps for it, but there was some complication (by design) that would have forced you to self-incriminate in order to do so.

    16. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by quantaman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Definately, though the thing I really think needs to be established is that a) marjiuanna is not a gateway drug (I garuntee this will be their answer unless it's countered in the question itself) or if conclusive evidence of a cannot be found then b) marjiuanna is a gateway drug only due to the fact that it is illegal (can any evidence from Holland be gathered here?), this makes it very tough to justify draconian anti-marjiuanna laws. Of course it's easy to say this, now we actually need the studies to back it up :)

      --
      I stole this Sig
    17. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Moofie · · Score: 1

      With the family whatchamacallit, without a constitutional amendment the law would be susceptible to overrule based on the 14th amendment. (equal protection under the law)

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    18. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You pro-drug apologists are ridiculous. Go smoke some Drano crystals, crack whore.

    19. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you explain how anybody who smokes pot for recreational use isn't a total fucking moron. Drinking doesn't give you tits either.

    20. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by fmita · · Score: 1

      I think it's pretty widely believed that use prohibition ammendment was about as much of an abuse of the constitution as would be a gay marriage ban ammendment. Other drugs don't require an ammendment because the prohibition ammendment was completely unncessary. Look at how pertinent to national affairs and/or broad in scope the other ammendments are. A ban on a specific substance is silly.

    21. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also say something about the WHO report (that "they" tried to suppress) saying that tobacco, alcohol and mary jane are all about the same level of dangerousness. And if eaten rather then smoked mary jane is actually better for you the tobbaco.

      THC the chemical that plays with the brain is also not physically addictive.

    22. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here, here.

      All you dope-lovin' libertarians out there are pathetic. Your entire existence is completely focused on the ability to buy a drug without legal hassle. Jeez. Your single issue of interest in the political arena is laffable. I think there are more important issues affecting us today than a ridiculous war of principle on legalizing drugs.

      Get a life, losers.

    23. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by ValourX · · Score: 1

      You have to keep in mind that Holland is a totally different culture than the one in the United States. Their people may be able to handle things that ours can't, and vice-versa. It's partially genetic, partially social culture.

      Show me evidence to suggest that legalizing drugs *in the United States* will solve more problems than it will create, and then you'll have something worth asking.

      -Jem

    24. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Before that point, it was possible to get tax stamps for it, but there was some complication (by design)

      Wrong and wrong.

      You CAN still get those stamps, and you did NOT need to incriminate yourself to do so.

      Note that the IRS never handled taxes on the sale of goods, anyway.

    25. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Thankfully, Michael Badnarik marks it as a main point in his campaign.

      Also, the Green party (represented in this election by David Cobb) includes the decriminalization of marijuana possession as part of their platform.

    26. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by runderwo · · Score: 1

      Hey, that's pretty neat. Thanks for the link!

    27. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > This is an incredibly relevant question that needs to be answered, as those of us who prefer the reefer as our drug of choice are having trouble getting rid of the stigma that's been attached to it/us.

      Probably has to do with the fact that you're all morons who laugh uncontrollably like Butthead.

      huhhuhhuhhuh...

    28. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Outlawing Alcohol didn't require an amendment

      Arguably it did. These days the Congress, with Supreme Court backing, tends to view the Constitution as a proscriptive document and assume that they're allowed to pass laws on any subject just so long as they're not specifically forbidden to do so.

      However, a plain-English reading of Article I Sections 8 and 9 suggests otherwise. Section 8 enumerates Congress' powers; Section 9 places specific limits on those powers. Nowhere in either of these sections do we find Congress authorized to regulate the sale of alcoholic beverages, or any other intoxicating substance. They might prohibit their import or transportation across State lines, but that's it. The 18th Amendment was therefore necessary if alcohol was to be prohibited everywhere.

      Perhaps Congress could have simply passed a law against it. But you could probably bet that any judge that law came before would use anything, even an "antiquated" view of Constitutional law, to strike it down if it would keep him from his Cognac nightcap.

      Although the 18th Amendment was foolish, it wasn't an abuse. The Constitution was amended in that case fair and square. I don't know enough about the issue to evaulate the objections to the legality of the 16th Amdendment, but if they're true then it's a serious abuse indeed. (It's also possible the 17th Amendment is invalid by the "equal suffrage" clause of Article V.)

      It also wasn't Constitutional amendment through drastic re-interpretation, as some activist jugdes are wont to perform. That, to the extent it actually happens, is also a serious abuse.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    29. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by hitchhacker · · Score: 2, Informative


      Outlawing Alcohol didn't require an amendment.

      So if the US Constitution says what the federal government is allowed to do,
      then where does it give the fed the power to outlaw alcohol without an ammendment..?
      The Interstate Commerce Clause? hardly.

      -metric

    30. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by HuguesT · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Cite references to back that statement. Many won't believe it.

    31. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    32. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by the+grace+of+R'hllor · · Score: 1

      It's not genetic. It can't be. The US hasn't existed with a homogenous population long enough (or at all) to create genetic modifications.

      If the people can't handle things, it's solely a cultural issue.

    33. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ok

    34. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Valegor · · Score: 1

      There are thousands of deaths annually in the U.S. that are attributable to alcohol overdose. In addition, alcohol intoxication is associated with violent behavior. Yet alcohol remains widely available. Another common drug, marijuana, cannot kill by overdose, and does not cause violent behavior. In light of these facts, how will your administration rationalize the continued prohibition of marijuana, which is a less harmful drug?

      Both drugs destroy people's lives, both drugs can lead to further illegal activity, and both drugs have long term negative effects on the human body. So what is the difference between the two? One leads to worse drugs and the other does not. I'm sure I will feel the spewing of vial hate because I don't support legalizing marijuana, but it is a gateway drug. You can scream about how it isn't and throw your reports at me all day, it will not do any good. I could easily throw reports that support my point of view right back at you. The bottom line for me is what I have seen first hand. I have seen strict anti-drug people start using marijuana because they became convinced it wasn't a real drug and then step by step work thier way up to much harder drugs. I have also seen the effects that it takes on middle aged individuals who spend thier whole lives doing it. The mind is not fully there any more, and self control is a thing of the past. I would support outlawing alcohol as well if i wasn't for the fact that we have seen it doesn't work. Outlawing alcohol just leads to organized crime, outlawing pot just leads to people growing it in thier basement.

    35. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      marijuana can and does kill:

      In the USA in about 1 in 3 of all car accidents the driver was high on drugs, in most cases this is marijuana. In other studies, marijuana has been proven to slow reflexes significantly. It doesn't take a genius to put these two facts together.

    36. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Vague+but+True · · Score: 2, Funny
      Good wording on the question. It focuses on 'overdose' instead of the focusing on what is being discussed. This is strictly a question on why someone can't smoke weed.

      This is modded at a '4', which is too "high".

      --

      I'm not a doctor, but I play one in bed.

    37. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by asdfghjklqwertyuiop · · Score: 1

      So marijuana doesn't kill.... driving while high did.

    38. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah well, 1 in 2 car accidents are caused by road head. And road head can significantly slow down your decision making, and at a certain point even impair your vision. It doesn't take a genius to put these two facts together either. Oh, where did I get these facts? Out your mothers ass, just like the 'facts' you cite.

      /Doesn't need to reference shit.

    39. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by drMental · · Score: 1

      This is a troll if I've ever seen one. Please provide statistics that marijuana is more dangerous on our highways than alcohol. The majority of 33% is marijuana related, lol, what are you smoking?

    40. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by BetaJim · · Score: 1

      Sure, it is a different culture. But why would you think that Hollands drug policy wouldn't work here? Do health workers in Holland have different methods of treating aloholism than here in the US? I doubt that they do.

      It may be necessary to educate our populace about MJ and other drugs (that isn't being done now). But, I think that the social improvement would be worthwhile just to be able to be rid of these unjust drug laws.

      --

      "Drug related crime" is a misnomer, "prohibition related crime" is the more accurate and correct phrase.

    41. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by minkeyboodle · · Score: 1

      When you put it that way, I'm thinking we should prohibit alchohol!

    42. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Teflonatron · · Score: 1

      I once wrote James P. Moran (8th Congressional District of Virginia) regarding that very same question.

      His response was that, due to Interstate Commerce case law not yet being sufficiently established at the time of Prohibition, an Amendment was necesary. When 'drugs' were made illegal, they were able to use Interstate Commerce regulation to restrict access to these drugs, whereas they did not, at the time, have this power to restrict Alcohol in the same way.

      This brings up another interesting dilema, as growing for your own personal consumption can not be considered Interstate Commerece, which means the Federal goverment has no authority to prosecute such 'offenders'... The state still has this power, but not the Feds.

    43. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like how you negelected to remind us that high drivers will also slow down and drive more cafefully to compensate for the precieved slow reactions, which I have done. I know my reactions aren't slow but it feels like that so I am a much safer driver when high.

    44. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by dajak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Drugs in the Netherlands is regulated, but users (and to some extent licensed sellers of the less dangerous drugs) are not criminalized.

      Prosecution policy is based on the premise that criminal prosecution must be no more damaging to the drug users than the drug use itself. Besides that, a "war on drugs" is a waste of taxpayer's money and leads to no results other than overcrowded jails.

      With respect to drug users, the protection of health is the key aim of Dutch government. The aims of Dutch policy are 1) maintaining a separation between the market for soft drugs (cannabis products such as hashish and marijuana) and the market for drugs that carry an unacceptable risk (such as the hard drugs heroin and cocaine) and 2) preventing drug users from ending up in an illegal environment, where they are difficult to reach for prevention and intervention.

      Repression is mostly directed towards smugglers of drugs (both import and export).

      Although numbers of users appear to be lower than in the US and many other western countries according to some sources, it is not clear that this is causally related to policy (or vice versa). Dutch culture is generally not more tolerant to drugs use in my experience.

      Drugs policy is getting more repressive in the last decade, partially because of foreign pressure and partially because the Netherlands started attracting unwelcome foreign problematic drug users from the EU (since the Schengen treaty). The numbers are available through many drugs advocacy websites based in the US (google), but if you want a Dutch source in English on policy I recommend this .

    45. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by PatientZero · · Score: 1
      Show me evidence to suggest that legalizing drugs *in the United States* will solve more problems than it will create

      It's not so much that legalizing marijuana and other soft drugs will solve problems, for it's the criminalization itself that causes the problems in the first place. By creating a black market for drugs, you increase their price, paving the way for organized crime. As well, normally law-abiding citizens lose respect for the law when they feel laws are unjust. Finally, kids see it as taboo and do it solely due to that perception.

      • International criminal cartels produce the drugs while the DEA attempts to fight them. CIA has been found many times to play on both sides.
      • Organized crime and gangs use violence to protect their markets.
      • Users steal to pay the inflated price.
      • Police waste time enforcing victimless crime laws rather than fighting real crime.
      • Sales and income tax revenue is lost.

      All of those would for the most part disappear with decriminalization. And the cost? It's not proven that use will increase, but even if it doubles there would be far fewer problems.

      --
      Freedom to fear. Freedom from thought. Freedom to kill.
      I guess the War on Terror really is about freedom!
    46. Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by RPI+Geek · · Score: 1

      Easy, easy, easy to address that problem... it probably wouldn't even require a major change in most states' DWI policies.

      Do I have to spell it out? Make it illegal to drive while high. People will still do it, but then again people still do it even now. A more relevant rebuttal would have been: 'if marijuana were legalized it is very likely that people would feel more comfortable smoking in public, and doing stupid things like driving while high. This would increase the number of THC-related car accidents and cost innocent people their lives'.

      Basically I do think that yes, more people would be stupid about their smoking habits if marijuana were legalized, but I also think that if current DWI laws were expanded to include it (if they don't already) then the problem would be much mitigtated, to the point of being no worse than it is now.

      I also think that there are far too many nonviolent drug users locked up and costing me my tax money that would be so much better spent on treatment. The gun-toting dealers who'd shoot a cop or anyone else without thinking twice, and the idiotic people who take a drive to White Castle when they can hardly walk straight thereby running down a line of schoolchildren can rot in federal-pound-me-in-the-ass prison for all eternity for all I care, but the harmless offenders (both dealing & buying) with otherwise clean records, with no weapons, not driving, doing nothing more harmful than watching TV and giving themselves lung cancer certainly shouldn't face the same jail terms. These people can be given treatment for much more effective results.

      PS: Where did you get the 1/3 number? It looks suspicious to me.

      --

      - "Nobody came out that night, not one was ever seen. But Old Man Stauf is waiting there, crazy sick and mean!"
  7. 18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In the name of America's youth, billions of dollars have been spent on the War on Drugs. While we have seen our economy dwindle, and educational and social spending on the chopping block, our prison population continues to grow, mostly for nonviolent drug offenses. As a member of the so-called "DARE generation", my question is simply, do you find our current drug strategy effective, or is it time to look to alternatives for reform?

    1. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by ktulu1115 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why should 270 million citizens continue to pay $50 billion per year to try to change the habits of 20 million people, considering that this policy has not been able to change those habits in 82 years and at a total cost of nearly one trillion dollars?

      --
      # fuser -v /dev/attention | grep work
      #
    2. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Education spending has not been put on the chopping block. Money is not the answer for improving education.

    3. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by stallard · · Score: 1

      I think this is a very apt question. Perhaps to narrow it down, one might ask "what is your position on 'drug courts' which deal with nonviolent drug offenders and try to keep them out of our prison system?"

      --
      You know you like it.
    4. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by buttahead · · Score: 1

      nice re-phrase. very good to grab attention. on a deeper level, just ask yourself where the critical mass is.

      once you have x number of the population crack addicted, things can start to fall apart for all of us fairly quickly. agreed, not all drugs are as addictive and lethal but what if 200M of the population were suddenly struck with a crack addiction, and had a steady supply of the drug?

    5. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by DaveInAustin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is a good question, except that the economy hasn't dwindled during the past 30 years, it's actually grown quite a bit. I'd like to ask them "Would either of you acknowledge that the war on drugs has a cost way beyond the dollars spent on law enforcement and incarceration and the lost tax dollars that could be captured from sales taxes on currently illegal drugs. Would you acknowledge that we arent going to stop people from doing drugs (we arent even stopping people from doing drugs in prison) and that trying to do through law enforcement gives thugs a monopoly (anyone not a thug will be ratted-out by an accomplice, or ripped-off) on the drug trade, therefore enriching thugs (and terrorists). Its not a question of if drug legalization will increase the amount of drug abuse, because it very well may. Its the question of do you think the distortion in the economy (the creation of a job market for people with the skills of violence), are worth it. Wouldnt it be better to tax the drugs and use the money for treatment (and for law enforcement of crimes with victims).

      --
      --- http://davidnehme.blogspot.com
    6. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by TheMCP · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Asking if the current drug strategy is effective is pointless. It's an invitation for platitudes about how many lives have been saved by all the drugs that our marvelous law enforcement officials over the years, but of course we always want to do more. (Big smile.)

      Instead, I recommend asking "What programs and goals do you support or plan for reform of our laws and enforcement policies relating to illegal drugs?" It still gives them some latitude, but doesn't outright invite them to ramble on at length about how wonderful the existing system is.

    7. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'd have a lot of crack addicts. Your country falls apart? Who cares. If you're on crack you sure don't, and that's your choice. Civilization is not more important than making the choice you want to make. Maybe we'll actually get some real drama back into this Disneyland we call Western civilization.

    8. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by Bastian · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your use of the word 'supply' reminds me that The Economist actually had a very insightful article on America's drug policy a few years ago. The entire article basically spent a long time explaining in minute detail how America's drug policy is a complete failure and can only be a complete failure because it creates an artificial perception of short supply without actually making much of a dent in the supply at all. Because of this, the street price of drugs has skyrocketed, but the cost to produce those drugs has increased very little, and the amount of drugs being sold has decreased very little.

      What this provides is a situation where being a drug producer is so ludicrously profitable compared to anything else you could be doing with your time that nothing short of indisputable scientific proof that there is in fact a Hell could possibly convince people to stop producing drugs.

      This also provides a situation where being a drug dealer is so ludicrously profitable compared to anything a person with no college (or even high school) education could be doing that nothing short of indisputable scientific proof that there is in fact a Hell could possibly get people to stop selling drugs.

      It also points out that using the criminal justice system to try to cut off the supply by throwing dealers and trafficers in jail is akin to battling a hydra with tens or hundreds of thousands of heads. Just try and cut off enough to matter before they can grow back.

      It was really a fascinating article. I don't really feel like it taught me all that much that I didn't already know from 1920s American hisotry, but it was easily the most well-thought-out discussion of the War on Drugs that I have ever seen, with some incredibly lucid and pertinent examples, and it completely steered clear of the "Sky is Falling" rhetoric that both sides of the drugs argument usually prefer to stick to.

    9. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by runderwo · · Score: 5, Insightful
      There are essentially three types of drugs, of which all the regulated ones fall into one category or another.

      The first is drugs where dependence is chiefly psychological (alcohol, most psychedelics, marijuana, X). The second is drugs which have a strong physical component to dependence (nicotine, cocaine and derivatives, opiates). The last is drugs which induce violent and unpredictable behavior in the average user (meth, PCP, Ketamine) and are usually dependence forming.

      The first category should not be illegal for any reason. However, I like the idea of denying welfare checks to folks who continually test positive for those drugs. I also like the idea of taxation at the state level to avoid such drugs becoming consumer staples. (Think of it as a luxury tax.)

      The second category should be legal simply to reduce the criminal profit motive;criminal action from the second category almost invariably is a result of an addict not being able to find a 'fix'. Taxation proceeds from the first category should go towards providing rehab clinics with funding in order to get people off the junk once they go and get hooked (if they are the 10% that is susceptible to dependence).

      The third category should only be available via the medical community and prescribed as necessary, but with general distribution regulated by the states. These drugs are so dangerous and unpredictable across the set of users that just allowing their use might present a clear danger to others.

      I believe the above notes form a basis for a socially responsible and freedom enhancing drug policy.

      Note that this is all contingent on getting the federal government out of regulating intrastate matters, and the idea that government should not regulate your own body, but is responsible for preventing you from doing harm to others through your poor choices. People are going to use drugs and fuck up their lives, just like they always have even within prohibition. Why waste money and make criminals of folks who only wish to harm themselves?

    10. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by LearnToSpell · · Score: 1

      what if 200M of the population were suddenly struck with a crack addiction, and had a steady supply of the drug?

      Voilà

    11. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great idea. Since I only do marijuana and x, this would work great for me. Get this law passed by next weekend, okay? I've got a big party coming up.

    12. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      Alcohol is physically addictive. Hardcore alcoholics aren't pretty coming off it.

      Ketamine is an anaesthetic, it shouldn't make people 'violent and unpredictable'.

    13. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by buttahead · · Score: 1

      or why not just let the "bad" drugs regulate themselves?

      If a person is commiting a crime of violence or theft due to a habbit, he is commiting a crime that should already be covered under current laws, and is punishable as such. If he is doing a drug that ends in overdose, he doesn't cause problems for very long.

      Others that control their use don't cause crime and don't die. They are free to use any drug they want.

      I dunno. Makes sense to me, but it won't work in our social structure as far as I can tell.

      As for your comment:
      [nicotine, cocaine and derivatives, opiates]... if they are the 10% that is susceptible to dependence

      Where did you get 10% susceptibility? I'd like to read that. I think the number is much higher, but I don't have proof. I am a smoker, so a bit biased, but, from what I understand from observing, addiction is higher than 10% of initially casual smokers.

    14. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "our prison population continues to grow, mostly for nonviolent drug offenses..."

      I know you're trying to be a pro-drug apologist, but this sounds like a reason to increase the application of the death penalty. I guarantee THAT strategy would be 100% effective. Dead people don't steal your spark plugs to make homemade crack pipes...

    15. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The second category should be legal simply to reduce the criminal profit motive"

      The problem is that this doesn't entirely work. Even if a drug is legally available, that doesn't take away all the incentives to sell it illegally. For example, someone under the influence of an addictive dug is often unable to handle a normal job. Thus, they still have a strong incentive to engage in high profit activities (theft, etc.). It's not just the cost of the drugs at issue; it's also the everyday costs of living (food, shelter, etc.).

      I do like the idea of using drug (sin) tax revenues to support rehab clinics, especially with nicotine. There is no reason to accept that nicotine gum, the patch, etc. are more expensive than the cigarettes they are meant to replace. Cigarette makers (and governments!) enjoy the benefits of nicotine addiction; it is only proper that they should bear the burden of counteracting it.

    16. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by WalksOnDirt · · Score: 2, Informative
      --
      a,e,i,o,u and sometimes w and y (at be if of up cwm by)
    17. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by rizzo420 · · Score: 1

      drugs are pretty damn expensive on the street, moreso than you can get alcohol or cigarettes for. if the government regulated them, they'd be sold at a lower cost to the consumer, but still taxed. the whole reason that the drugs are so costly is because of the "war on drugs" and because they aren't readily mass produced like alcohol and cigarettes. once they are legal, companies will get into the business (true philly blunts maybe?) and reduce the cost of production, reducing the cost to consumers. there'll still be black market, tax free stuff like there is for cigarettes and booze, but it won't be as big an issue, and more for the underaged users.

      and you are correct on using tax revenue to support clinics and treatment programs. i really don't undersatnd why nicotine gum or the patch are more expensive than cigarettes. they should cost as much or less. it's the damn pharmaceuticals taht produce them that drive up the cost, not the government.

      --
      please me, have no regrets.
    18. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by Izago909 · · Score: 1

      I have one thing to say to anyone who'd oppose an idea like this. The drug issue and the gun issue are linked. Most of America doesn't have a gun problem except in larger cities. Middle America tends to oppose drug law reform on moral grounds and the general majority opposes because of nearly a century of propaganda. Most smaller cities and rural areas don't have as big of a drug problem (except meth) as major urban areas. Wouldn't supporting the treatment of drug addiction as a health issue, and not criminal, along with heavily taxing inspected and regulated drugs also cause less of a need for gun control?

      Breaking the cycle of drugs and gangs would be a lot easier if you were to release non-violent drug offenders only who served with good behavior, and allow them to legally tell an employer they are not a felon. Is it necessary to tell people you were convicted of a crime that you were later cleared for? The problem with drug laws no is that they are inherently racist. On average, minorities sentenced time more often and for longer periods than that of a white counterpart of the same gender. A drug offense can also prevent you from being able to vote.

    19. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by rizzo420 · · Score: 1

      i have a couple issues with your description... first, yes, there are drugs that only have a psychological dependency (and even that's debatable). marijuana is the most obvious of these, as well as most psychedelics (psilocybin especially). alcohol does not fit in this category as serious alcoholics are physically addicted to it. i am also 75% sure that ecstasy is physically addictive as well, as i know people who have been addicted to it. also, there's a much higher percentage of people who are susceptible to dependence than just 10% of the population. maybe it's 10% for the psychological dependence, but if it's physically addictive, it will affect much more than 10%.

      while i agree that most drugs should be legalized, they should also be heavily regulated. ecstasy, as a prime example, can be extremely varied by dose. a single dose could cause nothing or be extremely hazardous to your health. if it's not regulated, then people will be selling what could be nearly letal doses.

      what we do to our bodies should be our decision, not the government's. the problem that remains, however, is sobriety testing, which is important. just as we shouldn't drive drunk, we shouldn't drive high or tripping either. however, thc can remain in your fatty tissue for weeks and your hair for months. how do they test you? then there's the whole crack baby thing. if it's legal, what's to stop a pregnant mother from doing it? the doctors can only suggest against drinking and smoking while pregnant, they can't legally force you to not drink or smoke since those activities are perfectly legal. a pregnant woman who does drugs can really mess up the child more easily than one who just drinks or smokes. all these things need to be thought through.

      i'm all for legalizing drugs, but it can't be all at one, i think it needs to be a gradual thing. start with the least problematic (which would be marijuana as it's completely harmless aside from the tar content, you don't see people getting high and starting fights) and move up to the others (coke, ecstasy, maybe even heroin). but non-violent criminals should not be going to jail.

      --
      please me, have no regrets.
    20. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

      Ecstasy is not believed to cause physical dependence (heroin, alcohol, and nicotine are good examples of chemicals that cause physical dependence - coke is a weird case, which I'm not going to go into right now). However, it does have some potential for psychological addiction, and possibly neurochemical dependence (cocaine is mainly a neurochemical drug).

      If you want, I'll go into detail on the differences between physical, neurochemical, and psychological dependence, but I'm going to sleep now.

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
      (I read with sigs off.)
    21. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bzzzz. Wrong. Alcohol induces physical dependency. In fact, physical dependency on alcohol, whilst slow to develop, is probably one of the worst dependencies possible to acquire. Withdrawal from alcohol can lead to tremors, hallucinations, fitting, unconsciousness and even death. That's why when someone with a really bad alcohol habit wants to withdraw they are always advised to do it under medical supervision - often with drug treatment to ameriorate some of these side effects.

      Mike

      http://cloudburst.freewebsitehosting.com/

    22. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, interesting but Ketamine is a tranquilizer used mostly on animals but also on humans. Ever see someone "in a K-hole"? They just sit/lie there staring off into space for a while... sometimes hours. I wouldn't really call that violent or unpredictable. Meth... I think it's more in the 2nd category as well. Most meth heads are trying to sell you shoplifted items or begging for change, or just walking around babbling and "tweaking" you know.. twitching and crap. They eventually end up with gross skin lesions from scratching the sores that develop as the drug oozes out of thier pores. Homeless, rotten teeth, decrepid and eventually dead like the crackheads. But I've rarely seen a violent meth addict. They're usually too busy drawing pictures, painting, cleaning, whoring themselves out for cash... anything to pass the vast amounts of time you have while awake. Though I wouldn't put it past a crack or meth head to try and rob you. Most wont fuck with your average person cause they know they're somewhat fragile and out of thier head, hence it's easy to beat them down.

      As far as most psychedelics go, those do sometimes cause unpredictable behavior... ever see someone on a bad acid trip? Not cool.

      It appears you don't have direct daily contact with large amounts of these people... but whatever. What you said still makes general sense, but isnt that black and white. I believe alcohol brings out deep feelings that are usually hidden by self conciousness. Ever notice how some people are allways happy drunks? Or some people allways wanna fight?

    23. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by front · · Score: 1

      Jesus Christ.

      3 main posts...

      +1 again!

      (You do know, (of course you know that the debates are a scripted press conference between the Democrats and the Republicans)?

      Ask if they might just allow Nader to get in amongst them and ask some real questions.

      cheers

      front

    24. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by ghereheade · · Score: 1

      If you were to legalize your first two catagories, you would, in my opinion, need to have effective testing for "endandering others". We have an attempt at that with alcohol with our DUI/DWI laws. We would need to ensure public safety with similar laws related to the legalized drugs with detrimental physical side effects that have been added to the list. Just as I don't want a drunk driving down the road while I'm also using the road, I don't want someone impared by Marijuana, cocaine, etc on the roads either.

    25. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by Vague+but+True · · Score: 1

      This is a good question. Glad to see it modded at a '5'.

      --

      I'm not a doctor, but I play one in bed.

    26. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by untaken_name · · Score: 1

      Why not just extend your analogy and end all crime? Dead people don't jaywalk, either. I know you're just an anti-drug apologist, but perhaps you should stick to what you know. (Which, if that post is any indication, is nothing)

    27. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by MethylPhreak · · Score: 1

      Phencyclidene (PCP) is also an anaesthetic/tranquilizer, but it does indeed make some people 'violent and unpredictable'. Stimulants aren't the only drugs that can have this effect (alcohol can also have that effect)

    28. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by MethylPhreak · · Score: 1

      You would be surprised. Opiate addicts, as long as they have a steady supply, can function remarkably well at normal jobs. Its when they can't get a fix that they start behaving erratically (not showing up for work, etc).

      About the only drugs that you probably couldn't function at work on are the hallucinogens, and those aren't addictive.

    29. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by MethylPhreak · · Score: 1

      This is a minor nitpick, but all psychoactive substances work by affecting the release/reuptake of neurochemicals. Different drugs affect different sites/chemicals.

    30. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by MethylPhreak · · Score: 1

      Dude, you obviously have never seen someone who has been awake for 10+ days on a meth binge. Someone who has guns in the house, and is standing guard at their door, keeping a lookout for "them".

      Granted, meth heads typically behave just as you described, but I have seen it get WAY out of hand.

    31. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by syukton · · Score: 1

      Your question is definitely the question that should be asked.

      I've often thought that the FDA should be a regulatory and recommendations agency, not a restrictive agency. I think that all data relating to various drugs and their effects, side effects, potencies, risks, etc, should be publicly available. I think that people should be left to make their own decisions concerning what they put into their body in the privacy of their own home.

      Spend the $50B/year on education; a couple years ago the average SAT score in my home state of Washington was 950. Spend the money on education, let those who want to fry their brains fry them, let those that like to party occasionally have their occasional parties, and let those that are willing to remain drug-free stay drug-free. For most people, whether or not they do drugs isn't mitigated by the law, it's mitigated by desire. Some people want it, some people don't, and that won't change even if the laws do.

      --
      Reinvent the wheel only at either a lower cost, greater effectiveness, or your own personal enrichment and satisfaction.
    32. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by ktulu1115 · · Score: 1
      Spend the money on education, let those who want to fry their brains fry them, let those that like to party occasionally have their occasional parties, and let those that are willing to remain drug-free stay drug-free. For most people, whether or not they do drugs isn't mitigated by the law, it's mitigated by desire.
      Exactly my point. Spending the amount they have on the "War on Drugs" has accomplished little. Sure, they bust large operations and such, but in the end the "problem" as they like to call it remains.

      We spend $50 billion per year trying to eradicate drugs from this country. According to DEA estimates we capture less than 10 percent of all illicit drugs. In this regard, I have a two part question 1) How much do you think it will cost to stop the other ninety percent? 2) Does $50 billion a year for a 90% failure rate seem like a good investment to you?

      Making the drugs illegial is not going to stop the users from their habits.
      --
      # fuser -v /dev/attention | grep work
      #
    33. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by rizzo420 · · Score: 1

      most drugs are neurochemical, taht's how they work. they may affect different chemicals at different sites in different ways, but that's generally what most do.

      and if there's a neurochemical dependence, couldn't that be basically the same thing as a physical one? i have a feeling that what my parent was referring to when talking about physical vs. psychological dependency will be what you're about to explain as neurochemical dependency. i think it'll be the same as his physical (since he didn't say a thing about neurochemical dependency).

      so, yes, please go into the details, at least for the difference between physical and neurochemical.

      --
      please me, have no regrets.
    34. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I appreciate giving the maximum liberty to all. I think moving things to the states would be a first step.

      There is a price to be paid for dugs being used. Drugs create a drag on society when drug users don't show up for work, commit crimes (DUI, Rape, Bar fights...), or head for the welfare system.

      I understand the goal of taking the money and crime out of selling drugs. Supply and Demand tell us that limiting the supply will send up the price. The answer to really stopping this economy, in the simple Supply and Demand model would be to eliminate the Demand. This could be done by jailing users instead of dealers. Possession of Drugs in a prison would need to be a very serious offense.

    35. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

      Physical dependence is when the body adapts to the presence of a chemical such that it can't function without it. Physically dependent drugs (heroin, alcohol) produce gross physiological effects during withdrawal, as the body re-adapts to operating without the drug present.

      Neurochemical dependence is produced by drugs that mainly operate by affecting the way the body handles neurotransmitters, and produce lasting effects on neurochemistry, effects that last after the active drug has dissipated - e.g., drugs like coke. They don't produce gross physiological effects during withdrawal, but they do have lasting effects on neurophysiology and can cause mental effects with physiological causes during withdrawal. Pot *probably* fits into this profile for extremely heavy users, but I don't do drug research for a living so I could be wrong, and all of this is just research done when a friend was addicted.

      Purely psychological dependence is mainly produced by drugs that have high tolerance/very little lasting effect, drugs like LSD or mushrooms. The only danger here is that you become psychologically needy; this is also the mechanism of dependence for things like gambling or sex.

      Addiction is defined as dependence (any of the three) where harm is caused by the dependence. Thus, you can be physically dependent on a drug (a painkiller during pain management, for example) without being addicted. Addiction is not normally prefixed with the type.

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
      (I read with sigs off.)
    36. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

      Not all drugs are psychoactive, and neurochemical dependence requires that the drug cause changes in neurochemistry/neurophysiology that last beyond the drugs active period.

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
      (I read with sigs off.)
    37. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by MethylPhreak · · Score: 1

      True, not all drugs are psychoactive, but I don't know of any recreational ones that aren't.

    38. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by Mark+Shewmaker · · Score: 1
      what we do to our bodies should be our decision, not the government's. the problem that remains, however, is sobriety testing, which is important. just as we shouldn't drive drunk, we shouldn't drive high or tripping either.
      I really only care whether a person is competent to drive. The reasons underlying their temporary or permanent incompetence are not directly important to me.

      Instead of privacy-violating tests of breath, blood, or urine, for an ever-increasing range of substances, age-requirements, medical tests for the presence of degenerative diseases and the like, and any other tests that could be added to this list were we to continue to test for underylying causes...

      Why not just test for driving competence directly?

      There used to be a few companies who made such "performance testing" devices, (I remember one was called "Performance Factors, Inc.", but it has since gone bankrupt unfortunately.)

      The devices were basically little videogames handed to drivers. If you can pass their reaction-time tests and other similar tests, then you are judged competent to drive.

      No privacy-violating tests necessary, and the test tested exactly what we're fundamentally worried about.

      It doesn't matter if you've drunk too much, or if you're old enough that you really shouldn't be driving, or if you're too sleepy to drive, or if your prescription drugs have bad side effects, or if you've succumbed to any number of other things that could reduce your reaction time.

      Just do these sorts of reaction-time tests directly, and a whole slew of problems drift away.

      Plus, we won't have legislators making feel-good legislation lowering blood alcohol limits past far past sanity--if they legislated performance limits instead, there'd be a natural checks-and-balances built in as such limits couldn't be made so strict that the majority of the population--and the legislators--couldn't pass.

      We'd also be able to get rid of silly open-container laws.

      It would become easier to create public awareness of other unsafe driving problems, such as drowsy driving.

      (I would *hope* that such testing devices became widely and cheaply available for general purchase. It should be far easier to trust a handheld game to be properly calibrated than trust a chemical tester to be properly calibrated--and harder to use the device incorrectly.)

      And yes, playing a handheld videogame is not a comprehensive test of driving ability, but it is far more comprehensive, far less error-prone, and far less susceptible to abuse than chemical tests.

    39. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by schmiddy · · Score: 1

      I poked around a bit online.. I think the article you were referring to is this one.
      Another good read along the same lines from The Economist is here .

      I really hope the grandparent post gets submitted to the candidates, I don't recall ever hearing them directly confirm/deny their support for the drug war.

      --
      http://cltracker.net -- powerful craigslist multi-city search
    40. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

      You can be dependent on or addicted to a non-recreational drug.

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
      (I read with sigs off.)
    41. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not illegal for *any* reason?

      So, driving while intoxicated (doesn't matter with *what*) is okay!?

      As for opiates, ect., there's no way in hell those should be legal. If you have *any* idea what those do to people, you should know how terrible they are.

      Frankly, I don't buy any of the decriminalization arguements. And yes, I know how some argue that we're inconsistant because we allow smoking. Frankly, I would prefer we outlaw that, too.

    42. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by runderwo · · Score: 1
      That's what field sobriety tests are for.

    43. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by runderwo · · Score: 1
      I agree wholeheartedly with your assertion that chemical tests are worse than useless. There have been various efforts to instate policy of placing people who test positive for marijuana under DUI arrest.

      Everyone cheers that it's a good thing, but it's completely unfair to the responsible marijuana user. The active ingredient is detectable in the body for several weeks after the period of last ingestion. This doesn't imply that the user is impaired or even high in the slightest, yet it would be enough to warrant a DUI under such conditions. Such a policy is simply discrimination and does nothing to make the roads safer.

    44. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by runderwo · · Score: 1
      So, driving while intoxicated (doesn't matter with *what*) is okay!?
      Legality does not imply the absence of regulation. Alcohol is legal (though some would prefer it not be) and yet it is regulated. Legality means you don't get put in cuffs when a cop sees you blazing.
      As for opiates, ect., there's no way in hell those should be legal. If you have *any* idea what those do to people, you should know how terrible they are.
      I haven't heard a convincing argument why people should not be allowed to engage in self-destructive behavior, and why it is society's responsibility to spend money on saving them from themselves (or additionally to hand them welfare checks while they engage in such behavior).
      Frankly, I don't buy any of the decriminalization arguements. And yes, I know how some argue that we're inconsistant because we allow smoking. Frankly, I would prefer we outlaw that, too.
      See above. Smoking anything has some other issues attached to it, namely the littering and air pollution. In the privacy of one's home or on private property whose owner has allowed it, I don't know of a convincing reason why moral crusaders such as yourself should be able to prevent people from engaging in such activities.
    45. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A field sobriety test for alcohol doesn't necessarily show impairment from cocaine/meth/hash/etc.

    46. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by runderwo · · Score: 1

      Field sobriety tests are designed to determine whether the driver's reaction time and coordination are within expected parameters and that they are coherent enough to answer questions. If they are, then who cares what they're on?

    47. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by vorpal22 · · Score: 1

      I agree that PCP has tendencies to drive people towards violent and unpredictable behaviour, but I've never heard that of the other common dissociatives like DXM, Ketamine, or nitrous oxide.

    48. Re:18-35 #7 DRUG POLICY by hesiod · · Score: 1

      > Ever see someone "in a K-hole"?

      I thought that was funny too. I've taken small amounts of K before & I didn't feel like doing anything but staring at a wall for an hour or so...

  8. 18-35 #8 DRUG POLICY by Roblimo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    With 80 percent of U.S. citizens agreeing that it should be provided, nine - and soon to be more - states accepting it, several organizations including American Nurse's Assn. and Texas Medical Association have resolutions supporting it, and even the current President himself once stated, "I believe each state can choose that decision as they so choose," why is it that medical marijuana is still illegal by federal standards and not the decision of the states or the individuals it affects?

  9. 18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I have a question about the HEA drug provision. This provision disqualifies students with drug convictions from receiving financial aid. Black students and lower to middle class students are unfairly targeted, as wealthier students can afford tuition and need not apply for financial aid. Do you feel it is necessary to deny financial aid to a student who already paid for their crime? Are you aware that students with a rape or murder conviction are not exempt from receiving financial aid?

    1. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by ktulu1115 · · Score: 1

      At a time when working people are being asked to tighten our belts in order to help balance the budget, how do you justify increasing the funding to the drug law enforcement bureaucracy? Explain why supporting a failed policy of drug law enforcement has a greater priority than student loans or drug education programs.

      --
      # fuser -v /dev/attention | grep work
      #
    2. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So it's ok for the rich to do drugs and break the law?

    3. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      So, in other words, here's a tip for the upper classes and majorities, do drugs and break the law.

    4. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by TheMCP · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Instead of all the two questions here, after the statement I recommend asking "How would you rectify the disparity between persons who have been convicted of drug offenses being barred from receiving financial aid, and persons who have been convicted of rape or murder not being barred from receiving financial aid?"

    5. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by quantaman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Combine 9 & 7.

      I feel that 9 is too aggressive suggesting racial motivation and possibly giving the candidate an easy out by challenging the stereotype rather than answering the question. Question 7 as well suffers from a touch of rhetoric, perhaps a combined question would do better.

      In the name of America's youth, billions of dollars have been spent on the War on Drugs. Drug convictions are punished with a disproportionate severity with respect to other crimes. This shows up not only in terms of a rapidly growing prison population but other punishments like the HEA drug provision which deny students with drug convictions from receiving financial aid, a privilege that rapists and murderers are allowed. As a member of the so-called "DARE generation", my question is simply, do you find our current drug strategy effective, or is it time to look to alternatives for reform?

      I'm worried that I didn't quantify the "disproportionate severity" well enough (think they'll get an out arguing that?) and I wouldn't mind incorporating the fact that the HEA drug provision specifically interferes with the ability of the person to rehabilitate but couldn't find an easy way to slip it in there without asking a second question.

      Any improvements?

      btw. technically I am also a member of the "DARE generation" so I'm not an american so I don't know if I can really hijack the question :)

      --
      I stole this Sig
    6. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by balaam's+ass · · Score: 1

      Sorry... "Black students and lower to middle class students are unfairly targeted, as wealthier students can afford tuition and need not apply for financial aid."??

      This is a tautology. You're saying that "people who need financial aid are unfairly targeted by this provision which is about financial aid." Cut that sentence from the question, and keep the rest.

    7. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by meta-monkey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Working people" is far to leading. The implication is that those who are "rich" are not working. There are plenty of professionals (doctors, lawyers, small business owners) who work 80+ hours/week, and thereby make $100k/year or more. Are they not "working people?"

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    8. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by pdxaaron · · Score: 1

      Black students and lower to middle class students are unfairly targeted, as wealthier students can afford tuition and need not apply for financial aid.

      Don't try to make this a race issue. As you pointed out yourself, this is a class issue. Black people are not unfairly targeted because of the color of their skin, this just affects people who need financial aid. While a larger percentage of black and/or hispanic students may fall into this catagory, it has nothing to do with race.

      I really hate seening class issues presented as race issues. Class issues are important, and when you ignore the root of the problem (distribution of wealth) and call it a race issue, you end up with solutions that are race based instead of class based. This does not help solve the problem.

    9. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Black and lower to middle class students are unfairly targetted? How about instead of making this a race issue just point out how ridiculous it is that people with drug convictions can't get aid but people with convictions for violent crimes can and then hopefully they'll make them exempt too. Somebody pays for financial aid even if the needy student doesn't and since as a tax payer I'm probably one of those somebodies I'd rather my money go to more promising students than those convicted of anything. If you're a drug user, or murderer or rapist, then I think you're less likely to make good use of my assistance. And yeah, it sucks that people with money can buy their way out of trouble sometimes, but, well, that's life so don't do drugs, get a job, make some money and then you can be one of them if you want to be.

    10. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd agree that its unfair that rapists and murderers are not exempt while petty drug convictions can't get financial aid.

      Please refrain from obvious leftist statements like "Black students and lower to middle class students are unfairly targeted." They aren't "unfairly targeted." You have to go through the very weak logic from "police racial profiling" -> "more minority drug arrests" -> "less financial aid for minorities".

      Weak logic from the beginning because in a nutshell, the police's first job is to uphold the law. But when you get pragmatic, they are going to focus on the problems which most adversly affect their communities. In the inner cities where minorities live, drugs are a common problem. No institutionalized racism, just common sense.

      The leftists should look to make the law fairer by restricting rapist, murderers, etc from getting financial aid. Or they should just say from the beginning that people who are looking for financial aid are looking to better themselves and get away from the drugs. Stop dropping the divisive and agitative race card on every possible argument which it might(bit might) apply. Of course the ACL(iberal)U would be all over a case like this but they wouldn't think about tackling affirmative action.

    11. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's a tip for the upper classes and majorities: it's ok to do drugs because your parents will pay for your tuition!

      IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE

    12. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no, there is no such implication since he wasn't talking specifically about non-rich people.

    13. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      See, that's the implication I was talking about, that non-rich people are "working." Therefore, rich people are "not working." This term is used to elicit sympathy for non-rich people, and contempt for rich people. "I feel sorry for the poor people, as they're working, and yet still poor, so I think we should tax the rich, who are not working."

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    14. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Failed? I think it's been pretty successful, as far as victimless crime law enforcements go. It's just that people who commit victimless crimes tend to get away with it more easily because they don't have a pissed-off victim who is after them. By your logic: there are laws against burglary, but burglary still occurs, hence anti-burglary laws have failed. Let's legalize burglary. Oh, and by the way, race X has a larger percentage of people committing burglary, so any lawmaking against burglary is racism against race X.

      I don't think the police's ability to enforce the law is the problem here - the problem appears when the law is actually enforced - they're just so insanely harsh against offenders, that I think humane law enforcement officers tend to not want to persecute drug offences when they see one, because they are not too enthusiastic about getting too involved too deeply in this war.

    15. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by killjoe · · Score: 1

      Actually it's an Urban/rural issue. If you live in the suburbs or in the boondocks you can drive to the nearby woods to drink or smoke dope and not worry about the cops catching you.

      if you live in urban areas the only place you can sneak to is an alleyway. Combine this with the fact that urban areas are patrolled way more agressively and the likelyhood of you being caught skyrockets.

      If you live in the city and smoke dope the chances of you making it 21 without getting arrested for drugs is pretty damned small. If you live in the suburbs you'd have to be stupid to get caught.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    16. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by killjoe · · Score: 1

      It's a different kind of work. If you are rich it probably doesn't feel like work. You certainly aren't being humiliated daily by your boss or having a second job.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    17. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by Qrlx · · Score: 1

      You make a lot of assertions about what the leftists should do... I'll assume you aren't one.

      What's missing from your dialogue is what the right has already done. Wouldn't the simplest way to achieve justice be to simply end the current right-wing policy of deyning financial aid to drug convicts?

      Why is your solution to further marginalize elemetns of society? Why not simply have equal rights all across the board?

      If you believe that drug convicts and murder convicts shouldn't be allowed to attend college, pass a law that says so. What's to be gained by this half-assed approach which makes it harder, but still possible, for drug convicts or any other convicts to attend college?

    18. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by Qrlx · · Score: 1

      Why stop at financial aid? Drug convicts and rapists and murderers all can get drivers licenses, and drive on the same taxpayer-funded roads that we do. Why should they be able to enjoy the priveleges of society after what they've done?

      Why don't we just keep these undesirable people locked up forever? Instead of denying a scholarship here, denying the right to vote there, why not just send them to an island, or just execute them all?

      After all they're less likely to make good use of our assistance.

    19. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by Qrlx · · Score: 1

      I would go even further, along these lines:

      DARE must not be working. I should know, I'm a member of the DARE generation. As I come of age, I see that something like 50% of the prison population is in jail from drug convictions. If DARE was working that number should have gone down over the past twelve years, not up.

      DARE teaches absinence, but it doesn't look like that's working. Obviously we need to do more. And we are doing more, such as the HEA drug provision which provides additional punishment by denying financial aid to my peers with drug convictions.

      My question is: Is simply teaching abstinence enough? When it comes to drugs, teen pregnancy, and sexually transmitted disease like AIDS, what more should we be doing to protect my generation and future generations?

    20. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by ImaLamer · · Score: 1

      I once wrote my congressmen (Steve "Combover" Chabot) about this same issue.

      I never really mentioned that it targeted Blacks or other minorities, just that it targeted young people who may be valuable to all of us later in life.

      Think about it. I'm a teenager, not from a well off family. I decide to experiment with pot, why not? Everyone else is drinking and partying, there must be something to it. I get caught because I'm young and stupid, I don't know the best way to keep it a secret. Now, even though I may be a Mensa member, I made a mistake and now I'm practically denied college based on my class.

      Even though I may be able to crack problems facing the developers of quantum computing I'm stuck in the class level which uses drugs and alcohol the most. Because of a misdemeanor I've been sentenced to a life of menial work and society never benefits from the things I may be able to bring to it.

      Another case, similar to the one mentioned could arise when parents have no where else to turn besides the police. Many people I know were "ratted" on by their own parents, simply because they thought the law would know best. Of course later on they were denied college grants. Where those people are now, I have no idea.

      Even still, the problem arises when it comes to people who are older and have made mistakes early on in their lives. When it comes time to switch jobs I may need training I can't money that has already been collected from taxpayers for my betterment. What are my options? Sell drugs?

      Of course, we still allow drunks and drug users become Presidents...

    21. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by crayz · · Score: 1

      And the people in the suburbs never go into the city to buy...? Really a class issue in the end, I'd say

    22. Re:18-35 #9 DRUG POLICY by crimson30 · · Score: 1

      Are you being sarcastic?

      It can be hard to tell sometimes...

  10. 18-35 #10 DRAFT by Roblimo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Democratic Congressmen Charles Rangel and Ernest Hollings have been pushing to reinstate and change the draft, Senate 89 and House 163. The two bills call for the drafting of women, and don't allow exemptions for college or only children. The Congressmen are pushing the bill under the claim that too many minorities are fighting for our country (CNN.com, February, 2003). What are the chances of either of you supporting such a drastic change in our drafting process?

    1. Re:18-35 #10 DRAFT by stevesliva · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Interestingly enough, the casualties in Iraq are not necessarily disproportionate by ethnicity... the figures for minorities are close to their portion of the population.

      It's class that's disproportionate.

      --
      Who do you get to be an expert to tell you something's not obvious? The least insightful person you can find? -J Roberts
    2. Re:18-35 #10 DRAFT by LBArrettAnderson · · Score: 1

      I don't see how that could possibly have anything to do with a draft...

    3. Re:18-35 #10 DRAFT by Nomihn0 · · Score: 1

      How nice that you only count the injured and dead as part of our overseas fighting population. Casualties are not a good measure of representation. Look at enlistment and tell me again that we don't have an imbalanced armed service.

    4. Re:18-35 #10 DRAFT by stevesliva · · Score: 1

      Nice? I don't think casualties are nice, but given the casualty statistics, it would seem that the American military's overseas dying and maimed population is more diverse than would be assumed from enlistment statistics.

      --
      Who do you get to be an expert to tell you something's not obvious? The least insightful person you can find? -J Roberts
    5. Re:18-35 #10 DRAFT by stevesliva · · Score: 1

      Look at enlistment and tell me again that we don't have an imbalanced armed service. And, as I forgot to mention, RTF post. I didn't tell you anything of the sort in the first place.

      --
      Who do you get to be an expert to tell you something's not obvious? The least insightful person you can find? -J Roberts
    6. Re:18-35 #10 DRAFT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Yes, because focusing on casulties would reveal that the hardest hit groups traditionally are Special Forces and elite units (Navy SEALs, Marine Recon, Army Rangers), pilots and officers...all dominated by whites.

      Do you think this issue will get much attention when it is shown that minorities are over-represented in low-risk jobs and whites are over-represented in the high-risk ones?

    7. Re:18-35 #10 DRAFT by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Snopes suggests that this is a move "by Democrats seeking to make an anti-war statement": http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/draft.asp.

    8. Re:18-35 #10 DRAFT by spook+brat · · Score: 1
      The Congressmen are pushing the bill under the claim that too many minorities are fighting for our country (CNN.com, February, 2003).

      You just can't make this stuff up. This bill is an insult to the fine men and women I served with in the US Army who come from "minority" backgrounds. Once a man or woman enters the Army that person is no longer, in my mind, an ethnic minority; that person is a soldier. The fact that many soldiers come from underprivileged families or are ethnically other-than-Caucasian is due in large part to the fact that the Army (and US Armed Forces in general) treats you like a person once you're in uniform. There are few other employers with as broad of a recruiting scope and as egalitarian a promotion policy. Many of the recruits learn skills that are directly applicable to civilian employment; for the rest, college funds are established to help them join the ranks of the "more privileged" classes by getting a good education.

      These people become soldiers of their own choice because being a soldier is a good job, and can provide them with a future. Forcing these volunteer soldiers to serve together with people who don't want to be there simply to "balance out the races" is inexcusable, and can only result in poor morale and reduced effectiveness in the armed forces.

      If Congress wants more of a particular ethnic group represented in the armed forces, fine; have a meeting with the Joint Chiefs and remind them who approves their funding. Target recruiting advertisements at the people you want to see more of. If Congress wants more people in the Army, let's get rid of the "Army of One" campaign and switch to something that people understand (like "Be all that you can be", that was working fine). But don't insult the willingness these "minority" solders show to give their lives for their country by saying they are too many of them with the wrong skin color.

      Disclaimer: I'm not saying that there is no discrimination in the Army; it's still hard for women to get promoted to high-ranking leadership (that generally requires Combat Arms leadership time, which is not available to women). Neither am I saying that the Army trains every soldier with skills that will get them a 5-or-6-figure job after their honorable discharge (77F - refueling specialist - comes to mind; yeah, being a gas station attendant really pays well). On the other hand, there are no underprivileged classes in the Army - they'll take care of you and your family's needs as long as you're a soldier. And no one who leaves the Army with an honorable discharge can complain that they don't have the resources available to them to get a better education or job. There's no other employer like it in the US, and possibly not in the world.

      --
      Travel the Galaxy! Meet fascinating life forms... ...and kill them - http://schlockmercenary.com
  11. 18-35 #11 DRAFT by Roblimo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Under what circumstances would you institute a draft to fight the war on terrorism, or institute any other national service (such as the Universal National Service Act) to fight any other war?

    1. Re:18-35 #11 DRAFT by stallard · · Score: 1

      This relates a lot to question #10 and is something that I'm yet to hear either one comment on.

      --
      You know you like it.
    2. Re:18-35 #11 DRAFT by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

      Pres Bush says no to a draft.
      Kerry has proposed increasing the size of the military by 40,000.

    3. Re:18-35 #11 DRAFT by c0dedude · · Score: 1

      Under circumstances of dire national emergency. Just like it says. And congress authorizes a draft, not the executive. Next, please. Waste of a question.

      --
      Since when has this country used intellectual elite as a pejorative term?
    4. Re:18-35 #11 DRAFT by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      Useless question. The answer is "I'm not in favor of reinstituting the draft, but as Commander in Chief, I must do what is necessary to ensure the safety of our democracy, our people, and our way of life. As your President I will (or will continue to) make the hard choices that are required of the office with both prudence and utmost care.

      The better question is, "How do you propose to work within the bounds of voluntary military service to accomplish your military goals."

      It will get just as mealy-mouthed an answer as the one I stated above, but it at least offers the opportunity to offer solutions to the manpower problem wihtout them having to dance around the touchy draft issue.

      Of course, if there is a draft, it should be truly random, with no exclusions save total mental incompetance. National Guard? Sorry, son, we're bumping you to active duty. Desk job in the military already? Sorry, maam, here's a pair of boots and a pack...you leave for North Vietnam at 0500. Jenna, get your ass out of bed, you deploy next week. Oh, and Sky, you'd better finish surfing, 'cause you're headed to Basic in three days.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    5. Re:18-35 #11 DRAFT by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Under circumstances of dire national emergency.

      That's an insufficient answer, becauase the Bush administration claims a "dire national emergeny" is already ongoing.

      After all, the National Guard can only be deployed overseas in case of a dire emergency... because you know, in normal circumstances, they're supposed to be guarding THIS nation.

  12. 18-35 #12 ENVIRONMENT by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In the 1960s, a concerted effort was made, at the behest of Pres. Kennedy, to reach the moon within 10 years, an incredibly ambitious goal that was ultimately achieved. Do you think that, if a similar effort were made to develop alternative fuels, we would be similarly successful, and would you be willing to make this effort? Also, what benefits do you see alternative fuels bringing our nation, with respect to education, environment, security, and foreign policy?

    1. Re:18-35 #12 ENVIRONMENT by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

      I say this one is a repeat. It's pretty much ripped word for word from John Kerry's speeches. Bush may give an interesting answer, but I'm not all that confident that he will.

    2. Re:18-35 #12 ENVIRONMENT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Actually, it refers to the Apollo Alliance.

    3. Re:18-35 #12 ENVIRONMENT by buttahead · · Score: 1

      I vaguely remember bush talking about alternative fuels when he was running last time. I don't know what funding he's thrown at it... I wouldn't strike this off the list even if both have already talked about it. if oil isn't a concern, we don't need to keep jumping into wars in the middle east. thus answering some of the draft questions...

    4. Re:18-35 #12 ENVIRONMENT by lpret · · Score: 3, Informative
      Didn't Bush address this in his State of the Union speech? After some googling, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20 030128-14.html

      1.2 billion dollars to fund hydrogen fuel research and implementation.

      Here's Kerry's response: http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/9341338.h tm?1c

      Kerry proposed greater use of ethanol, soy-based diesel fuel and incentives to build and buy more fuel-efficient vehicles. His 10-year, $20 billion plan envisions 20 percent of vehicle fuel coming from renewable resources.

      See what 2 minutes of googling can do?

      --
      This is my digital signature. 10011011001
    5. Re:18-35 #12 ENVIRONMENT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a stupid question, or at the very least, a poorly worded question. What does the moon program of the '60s have to do with alternative fuels?

    6. Re:18-35 #12 ENVIRONMENT by Spectra72 · · Score: 1
      Kerry also wants to beef up coal usage.

      Make Coal Part Of The 21st Century Technology Solution

    7. Re:18-35 #12 ENVIRONMENT by TyFoN · · Score: 1

      Maybe you could ask them how they now view the Kyoto accord seeing the massive destruction in Florida. This seems to be part of the concequences of warming up the world.

    8. Re:18-35 #12 ENVIRONMENT by LetterJ · · Score: 1

      A little perspective on the Bush plan (I'm not defending the Kerry plan. I currently think that this entire country's "plans" for things like this are a joke.)

      To compare that 1.2 billion (over 5 years) for hydrogen to the investment in a moon launch is laughable. The moon launch in 1969 cost over 100 billion in current dollars. The *totality* of financial commitment represented in this year's portion of that 1.2 billion dollars will be spent on our military efforts in Afghanistan during the next 7 DAYS.

      In that same 5 years (using 2005's budget as a multiplier), the US will spend 9630 *billion* dollars.

      If you make $50,000, that investment is equivilent to investing ~$625 this year, which incidentally is half of what most folks spend on lunch at work in a year.

      Now, I don't know about you, but I'd hardly call lunch every other working day a large investment in something.

    9. Re:18-35 #12 ENVIRONMENT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now, I don't know about you, but I'd hardly call lunch every other working day a large investment in something.

      Depends what you have. If it's fast food every time, I'd say that's a pretty good investment in later health problems. If instead you are eating very healthily every other day, that's an investment that could pay off in a longer life.

    10. Re:18-35 #12 ENVIRONMENT by kirn_malinus · · Score: 1

      I'm not entirely certain if this is still the case, but I heard a few years back that the only effective process we have for seperating pure Hydrogen for use as fuel requires that we use petroleum as the base. In other words, Hydrogen isn't an alternative to Oil, it's just another face of the same Hydra.

      --
      All circuits busy.
    11. Re:18-35 #12 ENVIRONMENT by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      But isn't his wife heading up some organization trying to sue the coal burning power plants into shutting down?

      I belive that 2 of the bigest problems with alternative fuels sources is compatability with cars or equiptment that already use it, and the displacment of good paying jobs once it is forced into normal society. We would be almost shutting an antire industry down. Granted with retraining, the jobs could be filled from the new technoligy but then comes added cost that will probably make the alternative fuel cost even more then convetional fuels being used today.

      I don't think the problem is not having alternative fuels or energy sources. The problem is having them at a cost as eficient as we have today. And of course, if we were to take america out of the global oil market then the cost would drop dramaticaly and there would be a push to use it again. (that or other countries would use more)

    12. Re:18-35 #12 ENVIRONMENT by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I have read the same thing somewere too. It apears that the most cost efective way currently availible is to seperate it form oil as part of the refinery process for making gasoline and other fuels or lubricants.

      If another process opens up and is cheaper or reletivly the same price, we could have a replacment. I'm not sure if the enviroment would be damaged as much by using hydrogen instead of oil dirivitives in most aplications though. It might be worth the extra money in the cleaner enviroment.

    13. Re:18-35 #12 ENVIRONMENT by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      But the Kyoto accord wouldn't fix the global warming. It just passes it to different areas while costing developed countries more money.

      I'm not even sure that florida and the storms are all that different then past years. The main difference might be the paths the storms have taken. We usually don't here about them unless the hit land somewere, And even then it isn't too much unless they hit american shores. Of course with all the 24hour news channels, It seems to be the topic of the day.

  13. 18-35 #14 ANIMAL RIGHTS by Roblimo · · Score: 0

    What do you intend to do about animal rights? What plans will you set forth to protect the abused, homeless, starving, and neglected animals in the U.S.?

    1. Re:18-35 #14 ANIMAL RIGHTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Feed the plentiful ones to the endangered ones.

    2. Re:18-35 #14 ANIMAL RIGHTS by Spyffe · · Score: 1

      This is a "Mom and apple pie" question. No candidate will say they're for animal abuse, yet I don't see any president actually doing anything about it.

      --
      Sigmentation fault - core dumped
    3. Re:18-35 #14 ANIMAL RIGHTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck the animals. They're not people.

    4. Re:18-35 #14 ANIMAL RIGHTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Feed the animals to the victims of the hurricanes in Florida.

    5. Re:18-35 #14 ANIMAL RIGHTS by TheMCP · · Score: 1

      Why don't we try getting them to talk about what they'll do about the abused, homeless, starving, and neglected people in the US first?

    6. Re:18-35 #14 ANIMAL RIGHTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck yes!!! I love it!!

    7. Re:18-35 #14 ANIMAL RIGHTS by ShallowThroat · · Score: 1

      This is a terrible question. Let PETA worry about the safety and well being of lesser creatures like the mouse running around in my house.

      --
      The "Insert Quote Here" line is almost as predictable as inserting an actual quote.
    8. Re:18-35 #14 ANIMAL RIGHTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah! Remove the ban on animal sex!
      MAREZ RULE!

    9. Re:18-35 #14 ANIMAL RIGHTS by sammy.lost-angel.com · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is a good question, however it could be worked a little more.

      Unfortunately people have the idea that animal rights means you are a crazy, because people don't understand animals can feel (mental or physical) pain.

      Protecting animals can go a long way in helping people. For example, if the government would actually start regulating the meat industry better, millions of workers would have a better way of life. The meat industry is the most dangerous industry in america to work in, and it's all because of giant factory farms. This doesn't even begin to cover the environmental effects that this industry has.

      A better way to phrase the question would be to make it about farming and health. Phrasing it in a positive light goes a long way too. For example:

      How would you work to protect small farmers from being disenfranchised from the large corporate and factory farms? Would you consider greater tax breaks for farmers that grow healthier and more environmentally safe food?

      Sadly people just don't get animal rights. When they are faced with the question in black and white terms they end up making excuses for their behaviors. Or they get angry and dismiss it all as crazy PETA nut-jobs (very unfortunate, because PETA is nothing more than a marketing tool, meant to piss people off to gather attention, defeats the entire purpose if you ask me).

    10. Re:18-35 #14 ANIMAL RIGHTS by Valegor · · Score: 1

      This is a "Mom and apple pie" question. No candidate will say they're for animal abuse, yet I don't see any president actually doing anything about it.

      I'm not sure that they should either. This seems like a state or city issue to me. The higher and more seperated you get from the problem the less effective you will be in solving it. I think the penalties for animal abuse are rediculously low, but I don't want Congress dealing with the issue, I want the state dealing with it.

  14. 18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Having gone to high school in a very conservative area, where parents refused to teach their children proper sex education, I watched 20 of my classmates leave due to teenage pregnancy. Some knew about sex while others had no idea how to get pregnant. What is your opinion on sex education in the classroom and what resources (information, condoms, etc) should be used? Do you believe that teaching abstinence alone is enough to save our children from teen pregnancy and spreading disease?

    1. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a good question. One that could spark interesting debate if you could push the issue. But, since you can't, this question doesn't really help.

      But seriously, every politician has canned responses to this, which everyone has heard before.

    2. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by meta-monkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I would cut out the first two sentences of this question. The author states his bias (not that it's a bad bias, but it's still bias) and essentially states the answer he'd like to get back. Cut out the first two sentences and let the candidates stand or fall based on their own answers in their own words.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    3. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I lived in rural america so I'm still wondering how someone gets to the 8th grade and don't know to wear a condom to prevent pregnancy and STDs. I had no sex-ed classes and I know all about the various birth control. If people weren't so ignorant, we wouldn't have a need for abortions exept in cases of rape in incest.

    4. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not "conservative," bro. That's the South.

    5. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by Kohath · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I thought sex caused pregnancy.

      I guess it's caused by the lack of "sex education in the classroom" and "resources (information, condoms, etc.)". Who knew?

    6. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by emmilliiee · · Score: 1

      Comments like this just highlight the need for a comprehensive sex education program.
      Condoms are only 80% effective at preventing pregnancy, which for my vagina, isn't anywhere NEAR good enough. Kids need WAY more knowledge than that, kids need to be told about more effective forms of contraception, ie, the Pill when they hit 8th grade.
      I wish I had mod points right now to mod this question up.

    7. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by Lotu · · Score: 1

      Some knew about sex while others had no idea how to get pregnant
      You have just claimed that with out some one telling you or some of your friends they could not figure out the purpose of sex, or where kids come from. I hate to say it but if you need to be told how sex works you shouldn't be haveing children.

    8. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by strangel · · Score: 1

      This is a good question, though I think the likelyhood of high schoolers NOT knowing sex gets you pregnant is quite low. The second sentence makes me not want to take the question seriously. Perhaps the first part should be rephrased: "In high school, I saw many of my peers drop out because of teenage pregnancy. What is your opinion..."

    9. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Although he might have stated his biases, he also backed them up with an existing issue. So the issue was tied to one persons experiance. Would you prefer something like "Studies has show that in areas where Sexual Education and prevention is taught, lower high school pregnacies and dropouts occur. What is your position on this and your rational?"

      It doesn't matter what they answer, as long as they have a rational reason for their thinking. I don't believe not teaching them is an option, but the extent and how it is accomplished is. Some parents would not like their children to learn this at school, but too few are teaching them at home.

    10. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by dago · · Score: 1

      If you don't know how children are make, how can you prevent having some ???

      It may sounds evident to you, but before sexual education is made*, it's not uncommon to heard that
      - "I can't get pregnant because he really loves me"
      - "It's the first time [for me], so nothing bad can happens"
      - "Can I get pregnant after oral sex ?"

      * whether by the parents, the school or whoever is another question

      --
      #include "coucou.h"
    11. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by mikefe · · Score: 1

      The higher levels of Estrogen in a woman's body from taking the pill is suspected/known to significantly raise the risk of breast and overian cancer.

      So while some like bigger breasts, I'd rather it wasn't from a tumor...

      I'm sure this is a hot topic, so I'm not trying to overstate my knowledge in this area, which isn't much. If there are facts to the contrary, I'd like to know about it.

      --
      There: Something at a specific location.
      Their: Owned by someone.
      Please make sure your english compiles.
    12. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by artemis67 · · Score: 1

      This question is very vague. In the author's high school, were they teaching abstinence or was there no sex ed at all? It sounds as if there was no sex ed, and he's trying to equate abstinence with it.

      Secondly, when did all of "our children" become wards of the state? Why is it that the state must analyze the failure of parents to raise their children properly and take over for them? And why is it that discussions of sex ed never talk about involving the parents in a meaningful way?

      The problem with the state of sex ed today is that it fails to take into account the values of the parents; either your kids are in the class, or they are taken out of the class. Why is there no curriculum that gives the parents materials that they can discuss with their children?

      As a parent of two, I would much, much rather prefer that the school system would educate me on being a better parent and let me make the value choices, than for the state to just assume that I'm an unfit parent.

      And yes, I am all for the teaching of abstinence. I will talk to my children about teen pregnancy, STD's and birth control, but my emphasis will be abstinence. Why do people who oppose the teaching of abstinence always treat it as if its mutually exclusive of the teaching of birth control?

    13. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by 808140 · · Score: 1

      Actually, you have it backwards. The pill reduces the risk of cervical and breast cancer. I don't know about ovarian cancer.

      As we now, with the aging boomer generation, finally have data on women who have taken the pill all their lives, we've got pretty hard data on the subject. There's no reason not to take the pill.

      In fact, for many women, it means regular periods (or even no period, if you don't want to have one for a while, and are on a monophasic pill), moderate to light flow, reduced cramping, etc. My little sister was put on the pill by her obgyn to control her period's eratic, unnaturally heavy flow and the cramps that kept her out of school two days out of every month.

      The bigger boobs thing is related to the fact that the pill works by convincing the body that it's pregnant, and so there is some inflation of the mammary glands, but it's usually next to unnoticeable. Of course, the FDA is (for some reason) very reluctant to allow the low dosage pills that have been de rigeur in Europe for decades now.

      I think the pill has affected too much social change for our conservative government to trust it. Allowing women to control their bodies with little or no side effects! No! We have to give them the pill, or they'll riot, but let's keep dosages high enough that they still have some adverse physical affects from the higher hormone dosage (like nausea during adjustment, etc) as a deterrent.

      Can't have women running their own womb now! God forbid!

    14. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by crayz · · Score: 1

      Because abistinence teaching inevitably winds up as "the only safe sex is no sex" and other such crap, basically giving the student the impression that birth control is worthless. So for the students who actually do have sex, they may very well not bother.

    15. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by The+Queen · · Score: 1

      I am very much torn on this issue. I had a wonderful sex education program in my public school, starting in the sixth grade. My parents, on the other hand, never told me a thing, not even about starting my period. I don't know if they knew the school was taking care of that for them or not, but I am very upset at the thought that parents can't or won't adress these issues with their kids at an early enough age for it to matter. No, I don't think that it should be left up to the schools entirely, precisely because not all schools were as forward-thinking as mine; but at the same time if they're going to teach anything at all, it should be all-inclusive and exhaustive.

      However, having the school tell the parent "this year we hope you'll sit down with little Timmy and talk about puberty and teen preganancy because we're not touching that shit with a 10-foot pole" also sends the wrong message. It should, I guess, be a joint effort. I just wish more parents had the knowledge and the balls to do it without the school's help. Not getting that "talk" from my folks left a huge rift in trust and we never recovered from that (oh, the horror stories I could tell).

      --

      The House Between - Original Sci-Fi Series
    16. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by artemis67 · · Score: 1

      See, this is exactly the kind of bullshit I'm talking about. Just start passing out the condoms and, after an instructive tutorial, tell the kids to go have fun. This is why parents don't want to entrust strangers with something so delicate as their child's sexuality.

    17. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by artemis67 · · Score: 1

      My daughter's school sends stuff home with her all the time that I have to help her with. I happen to be in one of the better public school systems in the country. Parental involvement is seen as a requirement.

      I think that a balanced school program would put together a packet that the student must complete with the parent in order to get a passing grade. It could be something as simple as a video and a discussion guide, and then have the student write a paper about how the parent views sexuality. Make it as easy as possible on the parent. I bet upwards of 90% of parents would participate.

      Me, personally, I don't view sex as something so mechanical as, "Ok, kids, here's how ya do it. Now here's your condoms. Go get your freak on and don't get pregnant. Oh, and make sure you love the person. Have fun." I view sex as a very high level of intimacy that even most adult couples rush into without building the proper emotional and relational foundation. Teenagers have sex for all kinds of reasons, and I'm willing to bet that it's never because they've taken the time to build a loving, committed, mature friendship first. They go through so many changes up through their 25th birthday, anyway. I want my kids to grow up and be able enter into emotionally healthy relationships.

      I'm not unrealistic. I know that my kids might decide to be sexually active. It's not my first choice for them, which is why I will be discussing birth control along with my values. Maybe the message won't sink in right away, but eventually it will.

      However, if abstinence is not a significant part of the curriculum, then all they are doing is encouraging sexual activity. And for some people, that's their value system; that's unfortunate. It's not mine, though, and I don't want it thrust upon me and my kids.

    18. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by shrikel · · Score: 1
      I misread the question. I thought it said: "Do you believe that abstinence alone is enough to save our children from teen pregnancy and spreading disease?"

      I would say that's a pretty effective solution, yeah.

      --
      Any sufficiently simple magic can be passed off as mere advanced technology.
    19. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by PMuse · · Score: 1

      What is your opinion on sex education in the classroom ...?

      Why even bother asking? We know what both candidate's positions are. Further, we barely care what they think. This question is too trivial to matter in this election cycle. Neither the republicans or the democrats have shifted even a little on this point in years. Aren't we tired of listening to them say the same thing over and over?

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
    20. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by PMuse · · Score: 1

      It's redundant. You will get the exact same response on 18-35 #15, 18-35 #16, and 13 - 17 #1. The response will be campaign boilerplate. We don't need to hear it more than once, if that.

      If you must, then use 13 - 17 #1 -- it is the best of the lot.

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
    21. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by mikefe · · Score: 1

      Have any links?

      I'd like to read more about this, especially since I know someone who swears the pill raises the chances of cancer...

      --
      There: Something at a specific location.
      Their: Owned by someone.
      Please make sure your english compiles.
    22. Re:18-35 #15 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by 808140 · · Score: 1

      Well, I did a quick search on google and lots of stuff came up, with data supporting your side of the argument and mine. This didn't really surprise me, since studies sponsored by pro-contraceptive groups always showed no increased risk or decreased risk, whereas studies sponsored by anti-contraceptive groups seemed to show the opposite.

      One link that was particularly informative was the Oral Contraceptives and Cancer Risk page at the National Cancer Institute. Essentially, they maintain that there is a statistically significant correlation between higher rates of breast cancer and long term oral contraceptive use (which I didn't know, so I'm glad you had me looking for references.) The correlation is clear enough that a causal relationship appears to be accepted by most researchers in the field, but there is more recent data that disputes this (the article discusses it).

      On the other side, there is a significant decrease in the risk of ovarian cancer, for reasons unknown. Again, causality seems apparent, as the data remains consistent when varying other factors that might have been key, such as race, rate of birth, etc. The pill also reduces the risk of endometrial cancers to a significant degree.

      There are a number of other cancers that are positively correlated with OC use. These include cervical cancer and certain types of liver tumors. However, the increase is either not significant enough statistically to warrant worry, or is widely believed to be non-causal: for example, due to the higher likelyhood of women on OCs having non-barrier-method sex (without condoms, etc), there is a higher rate of HPV infection among women that are on the pill. HPV is a leading cause of cervical cancer, so it is unclear whether increased cervical cancer is caused by the pill directly, or simply as a side effect of higher HPV infection rates.

      Now, ovarian cancer and endometrial cancer are nothing to laugh about, and the fact that the pill reduces these is a very good thing (and it reduces them very significantly, the numbers are in the referenced link). However, breast cancer is the most common and dangerous cancer for women, so an increased rate of breast cancer is nothing to write off, either. As the article points out, though, frequent screening (breast exams, mammograms, and the like) can catch most breast cancers early and should be practiced by all women regardless (especially as they get older).

      It is my opinion (of course I may be biased here) that the pill has, more than anything else, been a force of liberation for women everywhere. The pill has allowed women to have sex like men; this (while frightening if you want to preserve the status quo) has had the net effect of reducing objectification of women, increasing objectification of men, and generally promoting equality of the sexes. It's beneficial effects with regard to women's menstrual problems can't be ignored, either.

      Still, the breast cancer link is interesting. Worth pointing out, certainly, to anyone thinking about the pill. Read the link, though, it's interesting (and seems unbiased).

  15. 18-35 #16 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by Roblimo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If you were reelected/elected president, what would you do to protect the rights of home-schooled in America? In what ways would you help the growing home-school community?

    1. Re:18-35 #16 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hey guys, does this really have to do with SEX ED? (I think it's mislabeled)

      -- Qubit

    2. Re:18-35 #16 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by pyrrhonist · · Score: 2, Funny
      hey guys, does this really have to do with SEX ED? (I think it's mislabeled)

      And considering that the question is about home-schooling, that's just gross.

      --
      Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
    3. Re:18-35 #16 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by TheMCP · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      With all that's going on in the world with terrorism, US-lead wars on multiple fronts, potential nuclear weapons in North Korea, and major civil rights violations in the US, I can't imagine why anyone would want to waste time in a presidential debate talking about home schooling.

    4. Re:18-35 #16 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by c0dedude · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Who cares? Honestly, the implications of a policy decision on this are small and should be left to education policy experts. Let's not force Kerry and Bush to be education PhD's. Seems like a waste of a question when we can worry about larger issues.

      --
      Since when has this country used intellectual elite as a pejorative term?
    5. Re:18-35 #16 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by strangel · · Score: 1

      Aren't most education policy questions left to state governments? I don't think it's presidential debate material.

    6. Re:18-35 #16 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by An+Anonymous+Hero · · Score: 0, Troll
      If you were reelected/elected president

      Correction: reappointed/elected.

    7. Re:18-35 #16 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by Corporal+Dan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Homeschooling appeals to the president's conservative base...this a softball question to allow Bush to swing away and make his base happy.

      Disclaimer: I was homeschooled.

    8. Re:18-35 #16 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why should the home-schooled get special protection?

    9. Re:18-35 #16 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by PMuse · · Score: 1

      Read the question carefully and you will see that is ambiguous. If you decide to ask it, at least fix it first.

      If you were reelected/elected president, what would you do to protect the rights of home-schooled [children] in America [to comprehensive sex education]? In what ways would you help the growing home-school community [to provide necessary education concerning sex and sexually transmitted diseases]?

      Or is this question not about sex ed?

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
    10. Re:18-35 #16 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by PMuse · · Score: 1

      Redundant. Redundant. You will get the exact same response on 18-35 #15, 18-35 #16, and 13 - 17 #1. The response will be campaign boilerplate. We don't need to hear it more than once, if that.

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
    11. Re:18-35 #16 EDUCATION (SEX ED) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Education policy experts?

      Have you read :

      http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.ht m

      ???

  16. 18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The U.S. has been accused of cultural and economic imperialism in the past, and now with the situations in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere, we are being accused by people around the world of imposing our will on others with force. How do you respond to that, and what would you do to restore our nation's reputation around the world?

    1. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by killjoe · · Score: 3, Interesting

      More people protested bush then any other person in the history of mankind. GW may very well be the most hated person in the world right now. I seriously doubt that our nation's reputation can be saved as long as he is office. If he is re-elected then the world will just presume that Americans support his vision of a world living under our domination.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    2. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by Red+Alastor · · Score: 1

      Really good question since the US have a big image problem in the world. As an exemple, I heard on TV yesterday : "USA is the most beautiful country in the world. Unfortunately, it is filled by Americans."

      I guess that it's not just us, canadians who do that kind of remarks.

      --
      Slashdot anagrams to "Sad Sloth"
    3. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by bofkentucky · · Score: 3, Informative

      See Colin Powell's response to questions about American Imperialism

      "We've fought in wars all over the world and never took any more ground than was necessary to bury our dead."
      The free Market takes care of the economic side of imperialism.

      We have neither the need nor the resources to subjugate the world.

      --
      09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
    4. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually I am thinking about voting for him just because I am sick and tired of hearing self-rightous assholes bitch & moan about him (and I don't see Kerry as any better). I'd love to see all of you even more pissed off.

      When I feel I have no real choice, I might as well vote based upon spite.

    5. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by c0dedude · · Score: 1

      Bad Question: Cultural Imperialism implies that we assume our culture is 'better' than 'theirs'. It also implies a difference between 'us' and 'them'. Also, it prevents debate as to what cultural elements should be kept (e.g. Social Mobility) and which should be discarded (e.g. a caste system).

      In addtion, restoring America's world reputation is a completely seperate issue than cultural imperialism. Cultural Imperialism relies on the US going in and taking over a nation's culture and imposing something in its place. World reputation has to do with how we are perceived in the world. Of course, one can affect the other, but let's keep this clean.

      A half decent politician would capitalize on this and dodge the question.

      --
      Since when has this country used intellectual elite as a pejorative term?
    6. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who gives a fuck about the US's reputation in the world? The French, etc. may hate us now, but guess who'll come begging for help if they get invaded?

    7. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by ValourX · · Score: 1

      Duh! That's because there are more people in the world than there have ever been and there are more "political pundit" TV shows, books, and now movies that basically lie or mislead with the intention of getting people on "their side." Take out all of the political shit in the media and there will be less uproar, and emotionally unstable people can go back to being bad neighbors instead of protestors.

      I bet you can't name one Bush policy -- the whole thing -- without looking it up. Even then I'm betting you'll quote or reference your favorite anti-Bush rag. I'm betting you're as politically ignorant as the protestors are, yet you're all charged up to do something about it.

      -Jem

    8. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by upsidedown_duck · · Score: 3, Informative

      How do you respond to that, and what would you do to restore our nation's reputation around the world?

      Both canidates have already answered this question many times. Bush is in favor of spreading democracy the world over (as if it is as easy as spreading butter). Kerry has said he will push to restore the US' reputation and try to bring Iraq to a close multi-laterally and with the UN. This is one area where the canidates are suprising consistent in their answers.

      I do hope people in other countries see that the USA is pretty divided over these issues (just like many people in their own countries) and that Americans just aren't a big bunch of bozos with grease stains on their shirts. Remember, you can hate us, but only in four-year intervals (you gotta wait and see if you can hate us for the next four).

      --
      -- "Makes Little Debbie look like a pile of puke!" - Moe Szyslak
    9. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by TGK · · Score: 1

      The United States has some of the most extensive unguarded boarders in the world.

      The former Soviet Union CAN NOT FIND some 900 of the nuclear weapons that it had when it collapsed in December of 1991.

      2+2=4

      The fewer people who hate us, the less likely we are to have a smoking glass crater where one of our favorite cities used to be.

      I'm not saying that we need to capitulate to the demands of every crackpot who comes along, but electing George "fuck diplomacy" Bush to another term sounds like a great way to antagonize the rest of the planet's population into thinking of more coercive ways to get the Petroleum Hitman to leave them alone.

      --
      Killfile(TGK)
      No trees were killed in the creation of this post. However, many electrons were inconvenienced.
    10. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Culteral imperialism is just snobbery and results from both sides. Something imperialistic is one sided affair.,

    11. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The best part is how his poll numbers soar every time he's protested. He's like a liberal's Borg. Nothing in their arsenal can beat him.

    12. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 1
      "We've fought in wars all over the world and never took any more ground than was necessary to bury our dead."

      The free Market takes care of the economic side of imperialism.

      That free market makes it very hard for American textile manufacturers to compete with Chinese prisoners.

      I'm a more conservative type myself, and my feeling is that if people don't vigilantly elect to support their community and country themselves the nation is screwed anyways.

      I have a very laissez faire attitude towards the government, but am very cynical about our nation being able to handle that freedom at this point.

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    13. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by killjoe · · Score: 1

      When was the last time there was an organized worldwide protest against anybody or anything? Never mind the numbers.

      "I'm betting you're as politically ignorant as the protestors are, yet you're all charged up to do something about it."

      You want to know about ignorance. George Bush mentioned in public 10 TIMES the Abu Nidal killed Leon Klinghoffer. Of course it wasn't Abu Nidal that killed him it was Abu Abbas.

      Now maybe if he got it confused once it'd be no problem but 10 times? Why didn't cheney, rumsfeld, wolfowitz, powell or anybody else correct him?

      GW is obviously ignorant and people around him are obviously either just as ignorant or afraid to correct him.

      Either that or they all look alike to him.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    14. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by killjoe · · Score: 1

      There is a Stephen Wright joke that goes like this.

      "you can't have everything, where would you put it".

      US imperialism is like that. We can't have the entire world because we couln't control it all. We are very content to install our puppets whenever we need and to bomb a country every few years.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    15. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by stonedonkey · · Score: 2, Insightful
      ""We've fought in wars all over the world and never took any more ground than was necessary to bury our dead."

      While this has been true in the 20th century, I can't believe he would say that with a straight face. Was North America completely unpopulated by Native Americans, the French, the English, the Spanish, and Mexico in his version of colonial history? Do the borders that currently describe the United States exist in a timeless continuum?

    16. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you realize how important allies can be in the gathering of intelligence and stopping terrorists? The French and other allies probably already helped prevent some major attacks on the US and its interests. Alienating allies even more would be very stupid since it wil be extremely harder for the US to deal with terrorist threats on its own.

    17. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by PeeAitchPee · · Score: 1

      GW may very well be the most hated person in the world right now. Sorry, but I gotta believe Bin Laden claims that honor.

    18. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by TwistedSquare · · Score: 1

      I believe that Bush would beat Bin Laden. Bin Laden has kept a low profile in recent times, whereas Bush has done the opposite. This is ignoring their respective deeds, but people have short memories.

    19. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by cluckshot · · Score: 1

      Dear President Bush/Senator Kerry. The culture of the islamic world is failing utterly to provide adequate food and water for their people and their ideology is failing them too. It prevents them from achieving decent solutions to their problems and misdirects them towards destructive ends. On the other hand all we seem to be handing them is materialism and moral degeneracy propigated by Hollywood Producers and our TV moguls. What do you think we should be doing about this and how do you intend to provide the children of the world with a better view to the future?

      --
      Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
    20. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow... if confusing names is enough to get you branded ignorant for life, I'm doomed.

    21. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by Paulrothrock · · Score: 1
      Let's define "subjugate" shall we?

      We invaded a host of Central American countries in the early 1900s to deal with "uprisings." In reality, we pacified the country so large fruit growers could operate without threats from the local populous. Then we set up puppet governments loyal to the United States *and* the fruit companies.

      So, no, we didn't "take ground," in the sense we took over government. But we did make sure there were no more threats to the US interests.

      Another case in point: Iran. In 1948 we overthrew a democratically elected prime minister because he wanted to socialize the oil industry, and installed the despot Shah. We never used military force, but we did use the CIA to provide support for the Shah that didn't exist in Iran. (Interestingly, G. H. W. Bush *and* Schwarzkopf had a hand in putting the Shah in power.)

      We're living in a pre-fascist state right now. That is, a state where industry and government are linked. It's not public, yet, but soon may be. We ignore things like human rights so that corporations can continue to have access to cheap resources, including raw materials, which is why we have permanent most-favored-nation trading status with China and a very close relation with Saudi Arabia, both of which have horrible human rights records.

      If we truly valued human rights and freedom over profit, we would withdraw support for China and Saudi Arabia, as well as any other nation with such bad human rights violations.

      Now there's a question I'd like to ask both candidates.

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    22. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      George Bush is responsible for FAR more deaths worldwide than Bin Laden.

    23. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by FreeUser · · Score: 1

      More people protested bush then any other person in the history of mankind. GW may very well be the most hated person in the world right now. I seriously doubt that our nation's reputation can be saved as long as he is office. If he is re-elected then the world will just presume that Americans support his vision of a world living under our domination.

      And they will be correct. Approximately 50% of Americans do support that toxic agenda. Approximately 50% are vehemently opposed. Unfortunately, the 50% who are vehemently opposed will be lumped together with the 50% that support our imperialism, consider Rush Limbaugh to be inciteful, believe O'Reilly to be "spin-free", and actually think Fox News is anything close to "Fair and Balanced" should Bush Junior actually be elected to office legitimately.

      In that event, after these terrible policies run their coarse, we will (at best) be like the Germans were for three generations: apologizing for the terrible behavior of our government, the terrible behavior of our people in supporting it, and frankly emberressed by our own nationality. Depending on how far Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Bush Junior are able to persue their agenda before something, be it foreign pressure or domestic revolt, puts an end to it, our grandchildren may still be apologizing to the rest of the world.

      This is the most important election of our lives. Every American reading this, on whatever side, had better be registered to vote, and be excersizing that right.

      --
      The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
    24. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Schwarzkopf did not do anything to put the Shah to power, since he was still ayoung child when it happened. His father was a military liason to Iran, so perhaps that fact confused you.

      Perhaps you should look at your facts more carefully before you challenge the personal integrity of people.

    25. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by killjoe · · Score: 1

      When you are waging war it's important to know why and against whom you are waging war.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    26. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by PMuse · · Score: 1
      Best question of the bunch so far (1-17). We need a solid answer from both candidates on this that is better than

      the world will like me when I win or

      the world will like me because I'm not that bully.

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
    27. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by md358 · · Score: 0

      I agree 100%.... if the election were held tomorrow, George Bush would definitely beat bin Laden.

    28. Re:18-35 #17 FOREIGN POLICY by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      While this has been true in the 20th century,

      No, it hasn't. In 1901, the USA Navy invaded and conquered the Philippine islands. Insurgents continued to fight against the occupiers for many years, but couldn't win. That area would still be a USA colony today, except for the intervention of the Japanese Empire in 1942.

  17. 18-35 #18 FOREIGN POLICY by Roblimo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What do you see as the biggest difference between your approach to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and the approach of your opponent? What are some specific problems with your opponent's approach?

    1. Re:18-35 #18 FOREIGN POLICY by paulproteus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's a good question because it asks for specifics. Bush's policy has always been vague in my mind - he seems to both give Israel a carte blanche yet at the same time push an internationally-backed effective-seeming road map. (Compare his internationalist-sounding approach of a year ago with the current ineptitude surrounding Israel's against-road-map new settlement building.)

      I like the question. I wish the public knew more about each candidate's policies to ask harder questions, but truthfully I don't know either's take on what to do in the conflict. The only danger is that Kerry says, "I'll find out when I get to office," and that Bush says, "Kerry has no position" and then lies about his own position.

      --
      |/usr/games/fortune
    2. Re:18-35 #18 FOREIGN POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with the American foreign policy in Israel/Palestine is the total lack of accountability. America talks about an equitable peace, but treats the Israelis as more equal than others. Also, and this is the root of the problem: The US continues to support Israel even when it is occupying someone else's land and worse still building settlements.
      It is this duplicity in the American policy that is the root cause of terorrism in the world. (it does not justify terrorism). As long as the US supports the Israelis over the Palestinians' rights to their own lands (the west bank and Gaza, with no Israeli settlement) there will be no peace.

    3. Re:18-35 #18 FOREIGN POLICY by aggieben · · Score: 1

      I would rephrase this way: What do you see as the biggest difference between your approach to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and the approach of your opponent? What parts of your approach do you believe will be more effective/positive/longlasting/ and in what ways?

      --
      Don't become a regular here, you will become retarded. -- Yoda the Retard
    4. Re:18-35 #18 FOREIGN POLICY by eformo · · Score: 1
      I think that a more informative question may be to ask the candidates "What are some specific obstacles that your approach will have to overcome?"

      It takes no time to poke holes in an untested policy of another party. It takes some time and forethought to recognize the unique hurdles that you are going to be encountering, and I'd feel better knowing that a candidate is aware of these ahead of time.

      Also, the last thing I want to hear at this point is more of the two parties attacking each other. Tell us what you will do!

      -ex

    5. Re:18-35 #18 FOREIGN POLICY by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      America is full of wealthy powreful ews therefore the US will always be biassed towards Israel.

  18. 18-35 #19 FAMILY VALUES by Roblimo · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Presently, divorce rates and juvenile delinquency are at all time highs. Issues like these are contributing to one of the most ominous threats on the horizon of this young nation - the disintegration of the family unit. As President, what will you do to slow the steady erosion of traditional family values?

    1. Re:18-35 #19 FAMILY VALUES by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Divorce rates have been declining for more than two decades.

      I don't think there are any rates for something as fuzzy as "juvenile delinquency", but I'd guess that the general decline in crime rates would cover this.

    2. Re:18-35 #19 FAMILY VALUES by The+Pi-Guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is this really the President's job? Family values are such a touchy issue that if a President brought their opinions in there, it would likely be a breach of the separation between Church and State.

    3. Re:18-35 #19 FAMILY VALUES by ktulu1115 · · Score: 1

      I would agree on this one. I don't think it is the President's responsibility, I think it is more of a product of the society we now live in.

      --
      # fuser -v /dev/attention | grep work
      #
    4. Re:18-35 #19 FAMILY VALUES by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Family values are such a touchy issue that if a President brought their opinions in there, it would likely be a breach of the separation between Church and State.

      Every Republican candidate at least since Reagan has made a promise to restore Traditional Family Values part of his campaign.

      Either you're 3 years old and have never witnessed an election before, or you're accusing Reagan of harboring theocratic leanings.

    5. Re:18-35 #19 FAMILY VALUES by TheMCP · · Score: 1

      This is a softball question for Bush. Polling shows that people who care about the issue approve of whatever Bush says about it and disapprove of Kerry on the issue no matter what he says about it. I don't think a presidential debate is an appropriate venue to be tossing the candidates easy targets.

      Moreover, if you think "the disintegration of the family unit" is "one of the most ominous threats on the horizon", you're an idiot. And, I think the statement "divorce rates and juvenile delinquency are at all time highs" is questionable - not about the divorce rate, but about juvenile delinquency. I think it's not at an all time high... in fact, I think it's dropping. We've discussed this on slashdot before. Anyone care to look up some statistics?

    6. Re:18-35 #19 FAMILY VALUES by strangel · · Score: 1

      The president doesn't cause or prevent divorces, people do. The most a president could do is call on people to go to marriage therapy or something before considering divorce. It's not a horrible question, it just doesn't seem to be something a president has the power to fix, therefore it's not appropriate.

    7. Re:18-35 #19 FAMILY VALUES by aggiefalcon01 · · Score: 1

      You might as well yell "yay conservatives" instead of asking this question. Trust me, no major media moderator will ever ask this question in a real debate.

      It's a good question and worth asking, I might add. It's just not a realistic question in today's liberal world (as evidenced by the troubles mentioned in the question).

      --
      Global warming is neither science, nor politics. It is a religion.
    8. Re:18-35 #19 FAMILY VALUES by mazesoft · · Score: 1

      Certainly not the most ominous threat on the horizon, but I believe you are under-estimating the impact.

      Outside a traditional family environment and/or moral standards, disintegration happens very rapidly.

      If you look at history, every single major government/country that has approved of same-sex unions was gone within 2-3 generations. This is why I believe that "traditional" family values are very important still to this country. If we allow or even encourage people to live different lifestyles, over time that not only stops population growth, but reverses growth. A reversal of population growth can only be sustained for a short time frame (2-3 generations is 80-100 years) before that nation, no matter how powerful at the beginning, would crumble and collapse.

    9. Re:18-35 #19 FAMILY VALUES by danielsfca2 · · Score: 1
      If you look at history, every single major government/country that has approved of same-sex unions was gone within 2-3 generations.
      How about you ``look at history" and provide some support for that spurious claim, and implied correlation, instead of expecting us to take if for granted?
  19. 18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Whoever sits in the White House on January 21, 2005, will preside over an America that has seen almost 30 years since the passage of the 1975 Metric Conversion Act. In those three decades, delayed enforcement and waivers have stunted the effect of this act on adopting SI as a common standard for Americans. This negatively impacts the U.S.'s competitive stance in the global economy. As President, what would you do to achieve the goals of the 1975 Metric Conversion Act?

    1. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The metric system is so easy to learn, that most Americans doing high school science know both systems. There is no reason to switch.

    2. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by p_trekkie · · Score: 1

      Yes there is.

      Engineers still have to do math in the English system because parts are made to English unit standards in the US. Forcing a changeover would not only make lives easier for engineers, but make it easier to teach phyiscal concepts such as the difference between weight and mass (did you know that in English units, there are units of pounds for both weight and mass? Metric is much more straightforward).

      I'm not sure that outweighs trying to fight the ingrained culture of English units, but I thought I'd just throw in my two cents.

    3. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by aggieben · · Score: 1

      Agreed. I'm not so interested in the "national debt" either. I *would* be interested to know each candidate's take on technology outsourcing, though. Seems like most slashdotters would be interested also.

      --
      Don't become a regular here, you will become retarded. -- Yoda the Retard
    4. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by Kohath · · Score: 1

      This negatively impacts the U.S.'s competitive stance in the global economy.

      No it doesn't. This question should be removed because it's based on an untruth.

      Apparently, we're supposed to think that US businesses regularly refuse to work on projects because the units are metric. Well, they don't. When it matters, people make the adjustment.

    5. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by theLOUDroom · · Score: 1

      I can think fo no othe way to describe this question other than frickin retarded.

      First off, we have much more important things to worry about.

      Second, the assertion that our failure to use mertic is hurting our economy is stupid. Capitalism dictates that when there is an ACTUAL finicacial benefit to the use of metric, it will be done. (Many American cars DO use metric for example.) We do not need to force metric conversion. If people see a benefit, they will convert, if they don't we're not much of a "free society" if we force them to.

      Third, US measurements are often much more useful in everyday situations.
      Good examples of this would be measuring temperature in degrees farenheight and speed in MPH. In both cases, the "American" units are much more in line with actual human sensory experience. Do you really want to have to use three significant figures on your house thermostat?

      Fourth, there are cases where switching to metric is just plain stupid because the established standard IS "english/american" units. In these cases, switching to all metric would do nothing but result is a whole bunch of needless tooling costs and unnecessary incompatibility.

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
    6. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by genka · · Score: 1

      Third, US measurements are often much more useful in everyday situations. Good examples of this would be measuring temperature in degrees farenheight and speed in MPH
      To me the opposite is true. I don't find MPH more convinient than KPH, but with miles the issue of miles-feet-yards conversion comes up sooner or later. Farenheight is simply horrible. 0 and 100 degree points are meaningless, while 0 at freezing and 100 at boiling make excellent reference point. 1 degree Centigrade is the smallest difference which can be felt by human body in everyday situation.

    7. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by globalar · · Score: 1
      This is not a good question relating to global economy, IMO. I would put some other topics well above SI implementation:
      • international trade agenda
      • labor and capital flows
      • emerging industries and state intervention in their development
      • GDP estimations and how effective they are in policymaking
      • U.S. placement in the GWP
      • energy policy: what policies should the U.S. implement and to what end?
      • evironmental regulation on a global scale
      • the national debt


      • I would ask: "Is it the responsibility of the U.S. President to protect American jobs from overseas competition? What sort of policies do you consider stimulating to domestic job market vs. simply protectionist?"

    8. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by theLOUDroom · · Score: 1

      Centigrade is the smallest difference which can be felt by human body in everyday situation.

      This is totally wrong. People will get in fights over one degree F on a thermostat. Not everyone, but enough that it matters.

      To me the opposite is true. I don't find MPH more convinient than KPH,

      That's all a matter of what you're used to, which is totally NOT what I was talking about. I was talking about the actual span of the units. For something like a thermostat you either end up being too imprecise (using only 2 digits) or overly precise (nobody really is going to care about .1 deg C).

      Similarly, driving down the road, you're really not going to be able to notice a 1 km/hr speed difference. Sure you could get used to viewing your speed in just about any units, but it doesn't necessarily mean there the most efficient way to present the information you're actually going to use.

      I don't hate the metric system. I find it really useful when I'm doing engineering, it has some really great points, but the "imperial" units have their own merits too. Sometimes this comes from their origins being rooted less in physics and more in human experience.
      There's no convenient size for beer for example. You can't just walk into a bag and order "one <insert metric unit here>". A deciliter isn't enought, and a whole liter is going to get warm before you finish it.
      For the average person, a pint is "just right" and if you say "two pints" they know to assume you want two beers not one really big beer.

      I think, being reasonably intelligent individuals, we should be able to cope with multiple systems of measurement.
      If you're used to km/hr for example, then by all means use it, it's my opinion however that there's basically no gain from swithing all the US street signs to metric units, for example.
      People are used to the current system, and there really isn't much cost to its continued use. The US is a big enough marlet that there really isn't any extra cost to have our speedos in MPH and our thermos in deg F, in is some ways they're both actually a more efficient way to convey information.

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
    9. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by strangel · · Score: 1

      The topic is valid, but the comment on it negatively impacting the US's economy seems a bit out there. This is something I would like to have an answer to, though, it's about time we gravitate towards metric more than we have. Not phase out the english system, but allow them to coexist (i'm thinking road signs, etc) for the moment so we have access to BOTH measures equally.

    10. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are right, not using the metric system does not hurt the american enonomy directly since all international comanies already using the metric system.

      But I think this question is important in the context of education. Probably all ./ readers are able to deal with more than one system of measurement. And they are problably able to convert from one to the other. But there are lots of people out there who have real difficulties with even one system. Since science is tougth (for good reason) in metric, those people have a hard time understanding science. And I think that is indeed bad for a scociety if there are a lot of people who are not interested of even afraid of science.

      I thing switching to the metric system, even in everyday life could increase the number of people with a good science education. And this is good for the economy!

      The question should stay in, but focused on education.

      BTW: since I grew up with only metric units I know that metric units are much more usefull in everyday situation. What is MPH or Fahrenheit :-)

    11. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by Yaztromo · · Score: 1
      When it matters, people make the adjustment.

      Or they don't, and your multi-hundred-million dollar space probe crashes without doing any useful science.

      Yaz.

    12. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by wass · · Score: 1
      The NASA example isn't a problem with conversion between the metric system vs english units, but a problem between any conversion. The metric system still has a number of subdivisions within it.

      If one group used CGS and the other used MKS, which are both metric, you'd have the exact same problem, except the errors would be nice multiples of ten. That wouldn't be any consolation that your orbiter is crashed. Or better yet, how would you measure electric field and magnetic field? Would you use Gaussian units or SI units? Again, both are metric, but they're off by factors of c and 4*pi. Look at the 3rd edition of Jackson's "Classical Electrodynamics", it nearly caused an uproar by changing from Gaussian to SI.

      --

      make world, not war

    13. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you know that in the metric system, there are units of grams for both force and mass? Did you also know that the English system has the Slug which is a unit of mass but not force? And yes, you mean to say "force" where you say "weight" since weight is a type of force and uses the same units as any other force.

    14. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by cluckshot · · Score: 1

      The whole metric thing is a stupid argument. Have you ever bought 453 grams of salt? I have. (one pound for sale marked metric in a foreign country) The fact is that the whole argument is about nothing. Land and distances and measures of it are and always will be arbitrary and whatever they were from the beginning. Scientists will aways fuss but it is irrelevant.

      --
      Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
    15. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by cluckshot · · Score: 1

      Dear President Bush/Senator Kerry. Do you believe in the right of the people of the United States of America under the US Constitution to determine their own laws, taxes and rules for trade? If so why do you vote to place us under the dictatorship of the WTO in Zurich Switzerland who has the authority to fine us and for such laws? If not how soon are you going to pull us out of the WTO?

      --
      Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
    16. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by genka · · Score: 1

      This is first time when somebody actually argues that imperial system is better. Usually people say "It's bad, but we are used to it". People fight over 1 degree on thermostat just because of their nature. Switching to Centigrade would bring piece to families :) I couldn't hack my car climate control, so it remains in F, and I feel no difference until I push the button at least twice. While I agree, that 1km/h difference isn't noticable when driving, the same goes for 1mp/h. Let's say you are working on a car, tried 1/4" socket and it is too big. Should you pick 17/32? or 7/16?. I agree, it doesn't take that long to calculate, but the choice between 5mm and 6mm is clearer. I've been living in States for quite a while, but I still don't rmember number of feet are in a mile or number of ounces in a gallon. Beer? 0.5l mug is perfect! Althought in Germany many people drink from huge 1L glasses. Small soft drink is usually o.2 or 0.25l glass- which more or less equivalent of a US cup- another weird measurment unit.

    17. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by theLOUDroom · · Score: 1

      Let's say you are working on a car, tried 1/4" socket and it is too big. Should you pick 17/32? or 7/16?. I agree, it doesn't take that long to calculate, but the choice between 5mm and 6mm is clearer.

      Actually, whench sizes are a great example of where american sizing is more logical than metric. American uses fractional sizes, and as size increases, so does the spacing between the sizes.
      With metric, they just keep bumping it up by one mm for much longer than they should.
      If you go to a place like Sears and look at a metirc set of wrenchs vs an american set with the same number of pieces, you'll see that the american set covers a larger diversity of sizes with the same number of wrenchs, while at the same time using a more reasonable spacing between sizes. (16mm is twice as big as 8mm, yet they still counting by 1 mm increments.)
      Metric wrenches are also a bitch because once manfacutrers do start skipping sizes, some manufacturers skip the 18mm size, and some skip the 19mm size. This means that even if I went out and bought a set that covers 10mm-19mm I still don't have all the wrenches to work on every bolt in between those two numbers.

      This is first time when somebody actually argues that imperial system is better.

      I'm not claiming it's better for everything, just certain things. Technically my complaint about wrench sizes is even really about the metric "system" because there's no reason the could have used a more reasonable spacing for metric wrenches.

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
    18. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by genka · · Score: 1

      See? If they skip 1 size in metric wrenches, you notice it right away. With imperial, I wouldn't even know if the set I bought is incomplete.

    19. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by theLOUDroom · · Score: 1

      See? If they skip 1 size in metric wrenches, you notice it right away. .

      You *WANT* them to skip sizes.

      There is no reason do have both 17mm bolts and 18mm, because the sizes aren't different enough from each other. It's like having a 49/64" bolt, it's silly.

      With imperial, I wouldn't even know if the set I bought is incomplete

      Any set of wrenches is going to be "incomplete" since there are an infinate number of possible sizes.
      In reality you need to pick a limited subset of the availible sizes. The american standard does a better job at this becuase it's better at using small steps between small bolts and bigger steps between bigger bolts.
      This isn't a flaw of meters as a unit, but of they way they decided to subdivide it for wrench sizes.

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
    20. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by genka · · Score: 1

      I understand what you are saying about skipping the sizes. I wanted to say that if 17mm wrench doesn't fit, I know for sure that there is no 17.5 wrench, while SAE may have something/64. Anyway, to many sizes is not a fault of the metric system itself, but rather easily fixable inconvinience. But how do you solve 1/4 vs 7/32 situation? Is it natural for you to add 14'7 3/8" and 9'8 11/16"? Even comparing package sizes in supermarket is PITA- not not a massive one, but still... Units of speed on highways are irrelevant- both US and metric work fine, but for anything involving conversion metric is clearly better. People can get used to anything- I don't think I have more problems with imperial system than native born americans, but I doubt I wll ever like it.

    21. Re:18-35 #20 GLOBAL ECONOMY by theLOUDroom · · Score: 1

      I understand what you are saying about skipping the sizes. I wanted to say that if 17mm wrench doesn't fit, I know for sure that there is no 17.5 wrench, while SAE may have something/64.

      No. That's equivalent to arguing that there are no standard sizes for SAE, yet there are for metric. It's not true.

      Anyway, to many sizes is not a fault of the metric system itself, but rather easily fixable inconvinience.

      No the fault of the metric units themselves? yes. Incovenitent? yes. Easily fixable? heck no.

      But how do you solve 1/4 vs 7/32 situation? Is it natural for you to add 14'7 3/8" and 9'8 11/16"?

      For me, yes. Decimals are nice for computer programs, but sometimes fractions are easier to work with in your head. Not always, but sometimes.

      Also, 12 has more, arguably better, factors than ten, so depending on the actual operation you need to do it can actually be easier in feet. For example, if you have a round number of feet (ex: any lumber you buy) and divide it by three, or four you're going to get a round number of feet plus a round number of inches.
      Typically you're much more likely to cut a board into thirds or fourths than fifths, since five-legged tables, or five-sided houses are not a common occurance.

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
  20. 18-35 #21 GLBT by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Why won't the candidates address the difference between civil marriage and religious marriage? Do they recognize the significance that this demarcation holds as a stand against discrimination? Do they realize how their unwillingness to address this issue impacts every aspect of GLBT's (and their families') lives? Are they aware that when political issues call civil rights into question that hate crimes raise exponentially?

    1. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, that's touching. Did you by any chance lose your soul recently?

    2. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by TheHonestTruth · · Score: 1
      Please explain/justify how being born black and being born gay are different as far as immutable characteristics go. Being gay is no more a malady than being born black, white or otherwise is.

      -truth

      --

      I had a steady B+ in my AI class until I failed the Turing test...

    3. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by meta-monkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why won't the questioner understand that he's asking a loaded question? Does he understand that the's stating a clear opinion instead of asking for a response? Is he aware that it might be better to ask a question, and evaluate the response, rather than simply state an opinion?

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    4. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can cure gay. Not a whole lot you can do about black. Unless you're Michael Jackson, but he's both ex-black AND gay.

    5. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please explain/justify how being born black and being born gay are different as far as immutable characteristics go. Being gay is no more a malady than being born black, white or otherwise is.

      Black people can reproduce with each other.

    6. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How can you "cure gay"? That notion was shot down in the 1950's. It's not a disease, it just is.

    7. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by BongoBen · · Score: 0

      This raises some interesting points, but it is not phrased very clearly. The most interesting point is that marriage is a religious institution. The government endorsing marriage is a way of endorsing religious beliefs, and there are no legit non-religious reasons for preventing gay marriage.

      --
      The Dude abides.
    8. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by TheHonestTruth · · Score: 1
      Though I see the person's point, I think this is a loaded question with a dash of desparation (which frankly cuases an initial eye rolling). A better way of phrasing this would be:

      Do each of you recognize a difference in civil marriage and religious marriage i.e., a couple may marry without a religious ceremony and the marriage is still recognized as such civilly?

      If you do not, why not?

      If you do, do you feel that the man-woman marriage is generally a product of religious beliefs? Though there is the propogation of the species argument for a man-woman union, there are many things we humans do to fight nature (e.g., people with poor eyesight are not naturally selected against; they wear glasses). If man-woman marriages are the product of religious beliefs, yet you recognize marriages may be purely civil in nature, why then are homosexuals not allowed civil marriages? Not civil unions, civil marriages.

      -truth

      --

      I had a steady B+ in my AI class until I failed the Turing test...

    9. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by TheHonestTruth · · Score: 1
      Black people can reproduce with each other.

      Yet you have not provided how being gay is a malady. Are people with poor eyesight, in the adult world, cast out for something they have no control over?

      -truth

      --

      I had a steady B+ in my AI class until I failed the Turing test...

    10. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by Kohath · · Score: 1

      Who is the questioner talking to?

      This could be a good question:

      What's your position on non-traditional marriages (e.g. gay marriages)? How does that position impact the lives of people in traditional and non-traditional relationships? Is that position descriminitory? Does it lead to hate crimes?

      OK, not really a good question. Too long. Shorten it to:

      What's your position on non-traditional marriages (e.g. gay marriages)? How does that position impact the lives of people in traditional and non-traditional relationships?

      Now it's a good question.

    11. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Black people can reproduce with each other.

      Homosexual people can also reproduce with each other.

      Today, for example, it's easy for a pair of couples to trade off. But in the near future, that won't be necessary. Biologists can already fertilize a lesbian with a clone of her partner- won't be long before that procedure becomes popular.

    12. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you have not given any evidence as to how being gay is a malady, and not simply a choice.

    13. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by TheHonestTruth · · Score: 1
      Would you choose to be discriminated and hated the world over? Would you choose to be severly beaten and left in a field to die (Matthew Sheppard). Would you choose to be told "We find your kind so repulsive that we are proposing a Constitutional Amendment to keep you from marrying?" Yeah, I didn't think so. People are born gay. Face it. Treating it like its a disease that can be cured is only deluding yourself. And I never said it was a malady. ACs did.

      -truth

      --

      I had a steady B+ in my AI class until I failed the Turing test...

    14. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by aggiefalcon01 · · Score: 1

      Hah! The "traditional family values" question is "-1, flamebait" and the GLBT question is "5, interesting". Great job, /. !!!

      --
      Global warming is neither science, nor politics. It is a religion.
    15. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by tehdaemon · · Score: 1
      There are tons of examples in history of people choosing things with equally harsh results. Early protestants, early christians. early almost any religion for that matter. Our Founding Fathers chose treason agianst the most powerfull nation on earth, many died for it. Just because the results are not pleasant does not mean that people will never make that choice.

      I do suspect that homosexuality is not a 'choice' in the simple meaning of the word. Few (if any) wake up one morning and say, 'I will from now on be attracted to members of the same sex.' or 'I want to be a hardcore heroin addict' You usually start with alcohol and then move to harder drugs. Mabe a better analogy would be girls/women who consistantly choose abusive boyfriends/husbands. (almost!) nobody chooses to be abused, and yet these people choose to be with and stay with people who abuse them. Most of them had similar family lives growing up. Abusive fathers are a major factor, IIRC.

      Another think is that poeple choose what they know. If you have never heard of perl, are you going to choose to write an app using it? Likewise if you never had a good female role-model, and never had a female friend when young (due to, say, a really bad female role-model, giving you the wrong idea that all girls are witches!), but you had a really great male friend, and a good father figure (actual father or not), Would you be likely to be attracted to, and choose to be with men, or women?

      Saying that you are 'just born that way' is too simplistic. So is saying that it is just a choice, I am afraid.

      --
      Laws are horrible moral guides, moral guides make even worse laws.
    16. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      Here's my version, as un-loaded as possible (albeit a small church-state bias is apparent.) If the question is too long, the last paragraph is sufficient. That being said, I think this question should be lumped up to something like "Should the government interfere with people's private lives?"

      Sirs, since marriage is currently commonly defined as a union of two persons before the eyes of the Law and the eyes of God, it is dualistic by nature. We grant that it is the right of every religion to establish the rules of their unions. However, since the United States is a heterogenous country with respect to religions, it should also be established that one religion does not dominate all others (or those of no faith). Indeed, the most common antithesis for same-sex marriage is usually on religious grounds: I daresay most of the opponents do not protest to the gay household itself (at least to a comparable degree) but specifically designating that household to be one through marriage.

      Therefore the most logical solution would be to separate a marriage in two parts; the religious and the legal.

      How do you view, sirs, the viability of a proposition to completely remove the term 'marriage' (and any derived terminology) from the Law and replace it with 'civil union' (for both homo- and heterosexual unions) while at the same time granting any religious organizations an express permission to, upon their choosing, not perform or honor marriages on couples depending on their sexual orientation?
    17. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by Izago909 · · Score: 1
      Are they aware that when political issues call civil rights into question that hate crimes raise exponentially?
      He is right about that though. One day, almost out of no where, the President announces a ban on gay marriage. How many more people get the publicity of a President? The public spends the next few months dividing off and arguing, and most of them not really caring but forced to pick a side. A lot of people don't need a reason to be assholes, just a reminder. Put two and two together. You'd hope two productive members of society could interact in a civil fashion based on that one shared trait, but sometimes it's too much to ask for.
    18. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Why won't the questioner understand that he's asking a loaded question?

      Because nine times out of ten, if you don't ask a loaded question, the response will weasel out of the question in exactly the manner we have seen a thousand times. This isn't a normal interview, you can't ask followup questions when they wiggle out of your first one. You need to make sure that you've closed those loopholes in the first question if you actually want them to address the issue at hand.

    19. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because a person can be born black, but no one is born gay.

      Decades of scientific research (even after the mapping of the genome) have yet to find a "gay" gene. People switch sexual preferences all the time. That is why this being gay is NOT an immutable characteristic.

    20. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      People with poor eyesight generally seek help for thier condition, and if a cure for blindness (in all forms) existed, I doubt many would choose to remain blind.

      Being gay is a desease. Deseases kill (without modern medicine). Homosexuality causes a species to become extinct (without modern science). How many gay horses do you see? How many gay dogs? Not too many. Why? Because its a desease, plain and simple. And those who have it die out of the species, hopefully leaving it cleansed of that malady.

      Rather than changing our way of life, allowing gay marriage and making all sorts of provisions for the infected. Why don't we a) cure the desease or b) let them die off

      If being gay is a choice, then like the parent said: deal with your choice. Don't burden our tax system with your choice.

    21. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT by TheHonestTruth · · Score: 1
      Religion is a whole other ball of wax. People martyred themselves because it meant eternal bliss. The same can hardly be said of people that supposedly choose to be gay.

      Revolutionaries could lay down their arms if the fight was too much for them. Gay people can't do the same. Very very few people "recover" from being gay. The ones I've read about all either have "relapses" are are severly mentally disturbed from childhood trauma independent of them being gay.

      Personally, I don't have all the answers of why someone is gay, but your johnson is your johnson, and you don't have much mental control over what he likes *shrug*

      -truth

      --

      I had a steady B+ in my AI class until I failed the Turing test...

  21. 18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    My husband works for a small business, about 20 people maximum, and the insurance the company offers not only would cost over 1/3 of his monthly income, but it would not cover our son due to his 'pre existing condition' (asthma). My question to you is, do either of you plan to make the limitations for assistance higher? Eliminate 'pre-existing conditions,' such as asthma? Make it to where agencies that provide assistance not just look at a monthly income, but look at the monthly outgoing?

    1. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If "monthly outgoing" means that base it on the monthly money you have left over after expenses, why wouldn't everyone spend as much as they can to get free insurance?

      Universal Healthcare is the only answer... Let's join the rest of the first world.

    2. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rob, you have a husband?

    3. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why ask for the removal of restrictions when complaining about the costs of health care? You should fight against the rediculous and frivolous lawsuits which cost doctors millions of dollars. These lawsuits are supposedly to "teach the doctor a lesson". The doctor isn't the one who has to pay this settlement, the insurance company does. If you want to get back at the doctor, ensure he/she is not allowed to practice any longer.

      IE, If people consistently did millions of dollars in damage with their vehicles, and the car insurance companies paid for it, your rates would rise exponetially. Would you then blame it on the insurance company? Or the irresponsible drivers who caused your rates to rise?

    4. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by Kohath · · Score: 3, Informative

      Geez. Editing.

      Do you have a plan to offer financial assistance to the working poor to help them afford health insurance? What are the specifics of that plan? Does it offer relief for people with pre-existing conditions?

      ---

      I don't know whether I agree this is a good question. Basically, it amounts to:

      Can I have another government freebie?

      How about no? A grown-up is supposed to be able to pay her own way. What's your plan to grow up and eventually be able to pay your own way?

    5. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, there are basically only two ways you can go on this. Give everyone "free" health care paid for by taxes, or tell these people to fuck right off. Because if the government tries to regulate these things it will go straight to hell.

      Part of being an adult is not living beyond your means. If you can't care for your kids, don't have them. I know bad things happen to good people but that's always been true. If your mortgage payment means you can't afford health care, you needed to buy less house. If you couldn't get less house where you live, you needed to move someplace cheaper. Mind you, I'm all for national health care. Want to know why? keep reading. :P

      I had a nice little career going until the dot-bomb and since then I've had a hard time even getting responses to my resume, so I went back to school and haven't even been looking for real work outside of the college. I'm working as an intern, being paid horribly poorly for my work doing PC support, and otherwise living on student loans and federal grant money. It's all non-taxable which means I basically have no income according to assorted social services (even with this money, I make basically nothing) so I get medi-cal.

      In other words, I have access to better health care than someone who works full time at a fast food joint, even though they work far harder than I do. This doesn't seem fair to me. Those people should have access to my health care.

      Arguably I shouldn't have access to it myself but I'm working to better myself so I have an excuse :) Besides, a nation is made up of its people and if you haven't got your health, you haven't got anything. A nation of sick people is going to be sick.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by upsidedown_duck · · Score: 1


      Perhaps there is a way to word the question to address the severe discrimination among the insured. Insurance is a risk-sharing venture, and it doesn't seem quite right that people even in the same age group can pay ten times what other people pay. I almost never go to a doctor and pay very reasonable premiums, but it scares me to think what those premiums would become if I actually wanted to use my insurance.

      --
      -- "Makes Little Debbie look like a pile of puke!" - Moe Szyslak
    7. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by ObitMan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem I have with providing assistance to the working poor is that it doesn't really help the working poor, but gives more money to the insurance companies. (backhanded corporate welfare?)

      It just abrogates the problem.

      What needs to be done, and I'm not advocating nationalized healthcare, is do something to stop the corroboration/collusion between the AMA, Drug companies and Insurance companies.
      This system is price fixing at its worse.

      The AMA artificially sets limits on how many people can enter medical programs per year. This isn't a quality issue, it's a means of keeping the medical professionals salary high.

      Drug companies do great research but they also collude with the physicians to push whatever they are making. I've sat in on enough free lunches by drug company reps to see what's going on. Many doctors have been turned into shills for the drug companies.

      Medical insurance is a perpetual motion machine that needs a big stick put in it. They at times dictate to the doctors what can be done or what drugs they approve.
      Average people cant get good care without it, and when they do get care they are limited to what their plan covers.

      Solutions? I don't know other than tearing the whole world down and starting again.

      --
      Who run Barter Town?
    8. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by msim · · Score: 3, Insightful

      To use an Australian example (well i am from there). What's wrong with a public health system that covers the majority of medical issues within reason, and people electing to take out Private Medical Insurance if they wish for more comprehensive &/or quicker cover for any medical conditions?

      I mean c'mon, the system you've got as i understand it is pretty fricking useless unless you've got medical insurance. I mean, charging $20 for a swizle stick to hold someones tounge down? sheesh!

      --

      Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know when your gonna get food poisoning.
    9. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by killjoe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "How about no? A grown-up is supposed to be able to pay her own way. What's your plan to grow up and eventually be able to pay your own way?"

      You know I am still waiting for Republican to tell the people of florida they should not get federal or state govt handouts just because they live in a state that gets hit with hurricanes every year.

      It's an election year though and every republican in Florida is looking to spread the pork around.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    10. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Eliminate 'pre-existing conditions,' such as asthma?" is also important. Especially egregious is when someone temporarily loses health insurance (for example, by unemployment followed by a job without benefits) and thus no longer receives coverage. This is less about getting a "freebie" and more about getting the service for which one is paying. This could be left to market forces except for one problem: health insurance cannot be purchased by individuals.

      Also, I don't see the rest of this as being about helping the working poor. It seems more like a request to help the working middle class. The poor already get assistance. The problem (as I read it) is that this family has too high of an income for assistance but not enough income to comfortably handle the medical bills. No less a requested freebie, just a different rationale.

    11. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by Kohath · · Score: 1

      A natural disaster isn't the same as everyday bills.

      Temporary help isn't the same as a permanent subsidy. Anyone can need help once in a while.

      This woman wants help on an ongoing basis. Before she gets it, she should have to come up with a viable plan where she'll eventually no longer need it.

    12. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's wrong with a public health system that covers the majority of medical issues within reason

      Unfortunately, in the US, the most vocal people calling for nationalized health care are doing so with the core argument that "Exceptional medical care is available, but too expensive. Therefore, the govenment should pay for it." There is no acknowledgement of any difference between a flu shot and a heart transplant, at least in the literature I see. In fact, many people are offended by the concept that medical treatment is subject to the same realities of scarcity and economics as every other critical need.

    13. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      A natural disaster isn't the same as everyday bills.

      Well, but in the case of Florida these natural disasters happen every year, often more than once. It's not exactly unheard of that hurricanes hit Florida in hurricane season.

      Temporary help isn't the same as a permanent subsidy. Anyone can need help once in a while.

      Definitely, but by the very same argument Florida has already recieved help on numerous previous occasions. If you want to live by the argument "grown-ups should support themselves" the republicans in Florida should come up with a viable plan where they'll eventually no longer need our support. Perhaps it's time for them to create a new tax (say 10% of all income in the state) to provide relief funds for future disasters.

    14. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Part of being an adult is also caring for others.

      Healthcare costs / insurance standards (i.e. pre-existing conditions) and the right to medical care are complicated both financially, morally and logistically.

      Wake up and smell the future -- huge labor surpluses are right around the corner and unless you already have a large amount of money, or are routinely scoring in the top 5-10 percentile you are in danger -- the "working poor" is soon going to replace the "middle class", if not in name, than in standard of living.

      Regarding the insurance companies, they flat-out have too much power. Insurance is a business, and the business must profit, even at the expense of a customer's health. Healthcare providers are quickly getting sick of the HMOs and are increasingly recognizing that the HMOs serve the best interests of neither the patient or the doctor -- they serve themselves.

      And don't even get me started on the drug companies, or the frivolous lawsuits, both of which increase health costs for their own personal gain (and I'm not talking about the average employee of a drug company -- I'm talking about the top 1% who is raking in the majority of profits!).

      Oh, yeah, not to mention that our culture doesn't exactly encourage proper health to begin (poor diet, inactive lifestyles, govt. support of multi-national corporations, general sedation).

      You must be one of those compassionate conservitives...

    15. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about placing limits on medical malpractice suits and/or insurance rates so that healthcare is actually affordable without insurance? Then people CAN pay their own way.

    16. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      Claims have almost nothing to do with rates or lawyers. The states have significanlty vaying laws on liability, but the overall tide of insurance premiums is independent of those laws. The sucess and failure of the investments insurance companies make with your premiums determines the rates more than actual losses due to insured claims.

      Do I think some reform is necessary? Sure. So I think there are bloodsucking lawyers out there who work the system? Sure. Are your premiums going to rise exponentially if the bond market goes into the shitter? Absolutely. If the bond lmarket takes off, will we see insurance companies selling products below costs? Yup.

      I hate the system as much as the next guy, but there are truly legitimate claims and there are fraudulent claims, and until you can get juries to see the difference, all the laws you write will hurt more of the former than the latter.

      (I happen to pay a very large liability insurance premium for the professional services I offer - over 25% of my GROSS billings the first year in business. I have a stake in reform, but I don't see the end-user value in most of the proposals offered.)

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    17. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by acoustix · · Score: 1

      "You know I am still waiting for Republican to tell the people of florida they should not get federal or state govt handouts just because they live in a state that gets hit with hurricanes every year."

      Paranoid, are we?

      --
      "A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
    18. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by Politburo · · Score: 1

      A natural disaster isn't the same as everyday bills.

      And if I get sick? Is that not also a natural disaster, albiet on a more personal level?

    19. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by Ratbert42 · · Score: 1
      A lot of people translate the fight for affordable health insurance to a fight for government handouts. It's not. Let me walk you through a semi-theoretical case with somewhat made up numbers:

      I worked for a company with 500 employees. Four years ago to cover a family, it cost (employer and employee) $400 a month. Ignoring the rising costs, four years later the company is down to 100 employees. Now it costs $800 a month to cover a family. But 100 of the people that left now work for a huge company with 10000 employees. They pay $200 a month to cover their families.

      Same people. Same health problems. So why does it cost astronomically more to cover people just because they work for a smaller company? Why? Because it can. That's part of what needs fixing.

    20. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by snark42 · · Score: 1

      This has already been done. If you husbands company were to get some sort of group policy, rather than an individual policy then HIPAA makes it illegal to exempt you for a pre-existing condition.

      Maybe we should take HIPAA farther, but can you require a insurance company to take a loss on an individual? Should they be able to set unlimited premiums to write these more expenses policies?

    21. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by canadian_right · · Score: 3, Interesting
      How come Americans don't mind government funded programs to build roads, schools, fund education, and many other worthwhile things, but don't think the government should be involved with healthcare?

      The USA is the only rich country without government funded healthcare. Wouldn't it make more sense to have toll roads and public hospitals?

      --
      Anarchists never rule
    22. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      Grown-ups are supposed to be able pay their own way. And companies are supposed be able to survive competition ;-)

      I have a different idea. Lets get rid of most malpractice by saying that damages by merging disability insurance with medical insurance and encouraging people to take an insurance claim rather than sue if something goes wrong. One can then allow the state government to investigate complaints against doctors and if necessary (in unusual circumstances) censure them by, for example, suspending their licenses, etc. This way we can remove medical malpractice insurance and reduce costs in general (by removing court costs). Ideally the disability insurance should include an allowance for pain and suffering as well.

      Also wrt prescription drugs, prescription drugs are not a competitive marketplace for the most part. Therefore, as can be expected, the prices are rising much faster than inflation and already many adults are not able to fill their prescriptions!

      Some have advocated price controls, but I think that price controls provide a disincentive to development of new drugs. The better approach, I think, is to reduce the length of time a patent is good for in order to ensure that we have free market competition sooner. THis way you still get ahead by developing the most patented drugs, but after a decade or so, these can be freely reproduced by competitors.

      Something needs to be done about the cost of healthcare, but the problems are usually issues which are beyond the free market.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    23. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by killjoe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you live in a state that gets hit with hurricanes every year or so then it's long term isn't it?

      "This woman wants help on an ongoing basis. Before she gets it, she should have to come up with a viable plan where she'll eventually no longer need it."

      Pray tell what is she to do except maybe kill her son.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    24. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by aardvaark · · Score: 1

      So what should we do about people with pre-existing conditions? Kill them all? Let them suffer till they die? Only treat the rich? These people are poor and their son suffers. Your answer: It's your fault. Go back to school and get a better job. Sell your kidneys to pay for things till then. Better off, just wait till the kid is 18 and then tell him it's his problem and he's a lazy blood sucking leach on the family and society. While we are at it, let's go taunt the homeless and tell them to get a job.

      Have you ever had to truly suffer with no way out? If not, then shut the hell up and grow up yourself.

      --
      If I had no sense of humor, I would long ago have committed suicide. -Ghandi
    25. Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by msim · · Score: 1

      Well that seems a bit like shooting themselves in the foot.

      Oh well, the gap shall grow larger & larger and they will suffer duely :-\

      --

      Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know when your gonna get food poisoning.
  22. 18-35 #23 IMMIGRATION by Roblimo · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Our immigration policies on family unification of permanent residents are far from adequate and causing a lot of pain due to family separation. There are several bills introduced that are pending consideration in this election year. Will these bills (ex: HR 3701, HR 3918, etc) be addressed soon?

    1. Re:18-35 #23 IMMIGRATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a Californian, and I am all for being humane, but we can't accept people from all over the world when they have no reason to leave their country, especially when the immigrants are illgeal. I propose strengthening out borders (at least the the Southwest). I'm sick of all thses illegal Mexican immigrants taking jobs (albeit primarily low-paying ones) away from legal american citizens, causing massive population increases (if the current rate holds, more than 50% of CA will be latinos, a good bit of it due to all the illegal immigrants) [i have nothing against latinos or legal latino immigrants], and using so much state money (our own tax dollars!). Either immigrate legally or don't. If Mexico is so bad that there are this many immigrants, prospective immigrants should complain to the Mexican gov!
      Tighten the borders! Thanks

    2. Re:18-35 #23 IMMIGRATION by TheMCP · · Score: 0

      That's a useless question to ask presidential candidates. Ask your congressman instead. The president can't make congress move on a bill.

    3. Re:18-35 #23 IMMIGRATION by smclean · · Score: 3, Insightful
      My problem is that we have something that is supposedly illegal being completely ignored. Personally, I feel that since the economy already supports illegal immigrants, that it could only do better by making them legal taxpaying citizens. I find it backwards that we pass laws to give illegal immigrants benefits normally enjoyed by taxpayers before addressing the real problems of their failure to pay taxes.

      Instead of dealing with the problem, the actual illegal immigration, we deal with the symptom, the illegal immigrants. Politicians won't touch the situation because of the Mexican lobby. Would they be able to convince their Mexican constituency that they could increase the ease and volume of legal immigration, and use the saved money to fund better border patrols, for the benefit of all?

      If the Mexican people like our government so much, why don't we just open the border, then when Mexico has all of 10,000 citizens left, we'll annex it into the U.S. I know I know, impossible, ignorant, etc, but it would be neat.

      --

      "'Yrch!' said Legolas, falling into his own tongue."

    4. Re:18-35 #23 IMMIGRATION by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Make it harder to hire illegal immigrants and they will stop coming. However we still need these people to pick our vegetables, we simply cannot stop immigration. Without them the price of agricultural commodities would go through the roof. It's when these people are hired by wal-mart that american citizens suffer.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:18-35 #23 IMMIGRATION by strangel · · Score: 1

      If an immigration question is to be asked, I don't think it should focus on this specific area - it should be included, but not be the sole focus of the question.
      Also, you're supposed to be asking for their opinion on the issue, not "when will these bills be addressed".

    6. Re:18-35 #23 IMMIGRATION by aggiefalcon01 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Better question: when will we deploy troops to our porous borders, for the sake of national security? For crying out loud, I'd think that after 9/11 this would be "important". Silly me.

      --
      Global warming is neither science, nor politics. It is a religion.
    7. Re:18-35 #23 IMMIGRATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've wondered the same thing about Cuba. Just fly over some planes with wide band radio transmitters, announce there is a total amnesty and everyone from Cuba is allowed in. I can just see Castro's face when he wakes up one morning and no one's left.

  23. 18-35 #24 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The United States, by invading Iraq, used international support and resources to lead the fight against nuclear weapons. However, no weapons were found in Iraq. How do you think this has hurt or helped our efforts against nuclear proliferation in countries such as Iran and North Korea?

    1. Re:18-35 #24 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by c0dedude · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Don't ask this question. Kerry and Bush will each squib it and go into the necessity of preventing nuclear proliferation and not put a policy on the table for N. Korea or Iran. It's not targeted enough to be effective. No two nuclear-armed powers have never, and will never, go to full-scale war. That statement has to be the basis for a policy about either of those two countries.

      --
      Since when has this country used intellectual elite as a pejorative term?
    2. Re:18-35 #24 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll
    3. Re:18-35 #24 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Key word: traces of chemicals.

      The United States gave Iraq chemical weapons. How is it surprising that we've found a small amount of chemical weapons in Iraq? I'm sorry, but finding one bomb is not enough to make me believe that Iraq did not, to the best of it's leaders knowledge, destroy all chemical weapons. I mean, even the FBI can't keep track of all its laptops.

      Somehow, I'm not about to shout "SADDAM HUSSEIN IS ON TEH SPOKE!1!!"

    4. Re:18-35 #24 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well hell we sold some what 5,000 bunker busting bombs to Israel, so they will take care of Iran for us, and North Korea? Who cares, the south is getting so pissed at us now--at least the younger generation. We will just wait for their god-couhgh-cough-leader to die off, and capture his son in Japan.

    5. Re:18-35 #24 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isreal won't do shit. Why send their own people to die when others will do the job for you?

    6. Re:18-35 #24 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous+Bullard · · Score: 4, Insightful
      How is the US invasion and the current military occupation of the already fully contained and militarily weak Iraq supposed to be such a morally wonderful idea when e.g. totalitarian China -- which has a massive army and plentiful WMDs, which has sold nuclear and missile technology to undemocratic countries, which continues their oppressive occupation of neighboring Tibet, which has one-party rule denying their subjects of lack basic political rights and which is constantly threatening the democrating Taiwan with war -- is considered simply a trading partner and a fine destination for western capital and manufacturing jobs?

      Do you, dear candidates for the post of self-appointed leader of the free world, find any discrepancy or possible double standards in the United States' foreign policy wrt. the above-mentioned setting?

      --

      Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?

    7. Re:18-35 #24 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by SpaceCadetTrav · · Score: 1

      No two nuclear-armed powers have never, and will never, go to full-scale war. Unfortunately, it only takes one.

    8. Re:18-35 #24 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      its the math... 1billion chinese... 270million american... i dont like them odds :)

    9. Re:18-35 #24 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by asdfghjklqwertyuiop · · Score: 1
      From the fox news article:

      [Mark Kimmitt, the chief military spokesman in Iraq,] said the shell belonged to a class of ordnance that Saddam's government said was destroyed before the 1991 Gulf war (search). Experts believe both the sarin and mustard gas weapons date back to that time.


      Still no evidence of recent weapons manufacturing. Still not stockpiles, still no mobile chemical weapons factories.

      From the guardian article:


      Dozens of mortar rounds believed to be armed with mustard gas have been discovered buried in Iraq, Danish troops said yesterday.

      If confirmed, the find will be the first discovery of chemical munitions in Iraq by coalition forces scouring the country for the weapons of mass destruction used as justification for the US-led invasion.

      [...]

      The rounds were in plastic bags and some were leaking. It seems they had been buried for at least 10 years.


      Ditto my above comment and was this discovery ever confirmed (note emphasis above)? If so please provide a more recent reference.

  24. 18-35 #25 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Roblimo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I am in the military and I want to know if the war in Iraq is going to have a long-term affect on stateside military funding under your control?

    1. Re:18-35 #25 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by mecredis · · Score: 1

      This technically isn't a question, its a statement of your desire to know the outcome of a hypothetical. Nix the question mark.

      --
      "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American Public." - H.L. Mencken
    2. Re:18-35 #25 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by strangel · · Score: 2, Informative

      The subject matter seems valid, but the phrasing is HORRIBLE.
      Try this: "What effect will the war in Iraq have on military funding during your presidency?". Not perfect, but at least that makes it a question.

    3. Re:18-35 #25 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by sigaar · · Score: 1

      Please look up the difference between "affect" and "effect."

      Yeah, I know, Bush probaby doesn't know the difference either, but it makes slashdot look bad.

      --
      sigaar
  25. 18-35 #26 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Would the recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan make it harder to declare war on, say, Iran or North Korea if the need exists?

    1. Re:18-35 #26 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by orthogonal · · Score: 1

      Would the recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan make it harder to declare war on, say, Iran or North Korea if the need exists?

      No. The 535 senators and Congressmen who would vote to declare war have as yet suffered not a single casualty in the Iraq war!

      And since only about three of those 535 actually have kids in the military -- and only a very few, like Lindsey Graham are actually in the military themselves -- (as opposed to the many more with kids employed by defense industries or lobbyists), the war has had no real effect on out stalwart Leaders Washington!

      However thanks to Bush's foolishness and Rumsfeld's stubbornness, while we will still be able to declare war easily, there will far damn fewer grunts willing -- or able -- to fight.

      Your follow-up questions should therefore be: when does Congress reinstate the draft -- and are the rumors that it will extend to people as old as 34, and preferentially those in "needed professions" like IT, true?

    2. Re:18-35 #26 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by strangel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Of course it would make it harder.
      A better question would be, "Under what circumstances, if any, would you deem it necessary to declare war on a rising nuclear power such as Iran or North Korea?"

    3. Re:18-35 #26 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the need exists? Of course not. But how do you know a need exists? Obviously we couldn't determine this before Iraq.

    4. Re:18-35 #26 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      Simple answer: Never. Only Congress can do that ;-)

      Actually, though, with North Korea, that might not be necessary though. Technically speaking, the Korean War never ended, and only an armistice was signed. So we have basically declared a truce with North Korea. But the war has not ended.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  26. 18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What is the plan for dealing with Iraq if the citizens of Iraq vote in favor of a fundamentalist Islamic form of government that resembles the one currently existing in Iran? How will your administration work to preserve the roots of democracy that have been cultivated in this middle eastern country if the citizens of Iraq vote in a theocratic form of governance?

    1. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Salis · · Score: 1

      This is a very good question.

      What happens if democracy finally flourishes in Iraq and/or Afghanistan and the government they select is one composed primarily of clerics, mullahs, etc? While democratic choices may not be the right ones, do we, as a fellow democracy, respect the choice of another people even though the result may hinder the national security of our nation?

      I have no doubt that a democracy that choses to be a theocracy with little pluralism or tolerance will quickly become a failed state. Ideas supposedly mandated by a higher power are not subject to compromise. And yet compromise is the essence of a successful democracy.

      Do we intercede in a democratically made, but unwise, choice? Or will doing so actually exacerbate the problem and further implicate America as an imperialist power?

      I'd like an answer now, because it's going to happen in a couple of years.

      --
      Favorite /. tagline: "On the eighth day, God created FORTRAN." And it was good.
    2. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by vandan · · Score: 4, Funny

      While I disagree strongly with the implications of this question ( ie that the US will have a right to overrule the democratic wishes or the Iraqis when they finally get a vote ), I would be interested to hear what Bush and Kerry have in mind. I imagine both will simply label the elections as being invalid, using the excuse that the Iraqi people were terrorised by the terrorists into voting for terrorists because of all the extreme terrorism occuring in the terrorist state of Iraq. Terrorist.

    3. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by killjoe · · Score: 5, Interesting

      MOD PARENT UP.

      The Shia comprise of 2/3 of the population and the cleric Al Sistani is the most revered person in all of Iraq right now. What will the kurds and the sunnis do if the parliment if 2/3 shia?

      --
      evil is as evil does
    4. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by NeoSkandranon · · Score: 1

      both will simply label the elections as being invalid, using the excuse that the Iraqi people were terrorised by the terrorists into voting for terrorists

      Who would you be to say that wasn't actually the case?

      --
      If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
    5. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by vandan · · Score: 0

      By mainstream logic I guess I'd be a terrorist, right?

    6. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by c0dedude · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Bad Question: Creates Iran as a boogeyman state that is antidemocratic. The opposite is true. Iran, while non-democratic, is a pillar of stability and good government in the Middle East. I recommend this question be dropped. A theocratic form of government as in Iran would not be a terrible result for Iraq.

      --
      Since when has this country used intellectual elite as a pejorative term?
    7. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "On the eighth day, God created FORTRAN." And it was good.

      No, no it really wasn't.

    8. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by quantaman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I can see dropping the Iran reference, while it provides some context it might give them a side issue to discuss instead and think it can be dropped without damaging the question too much. However it total this question is a DEFINATE keeping, it's a very real situation and the only real kind of discussion I've heard given to it is Rumsfeld saying that they might not hold the elections in parts of the country that are "too violent" (ie disenfranchise the anti-american regions)

      --
      I stole this Sig
    9. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have a pretty damn wierd definition of 'good government'...

    10. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Salis · · Score: 1

      Such trolling.

      But, here's my rebuttal. I'm only going to reply once.

      The Cray X1 supercomputer (156th fastest supercomputer in the world) has only two supported compilers:

      C

      Fortran95/2k

      I can do all my scientific computing in Fortran whereas it would take me twice as long to code it in C (I do know both).

      So I get to do twice as much. And for those who know higher level mathematics, Fortran's vector syntax is much more comfortable.

      I'm not going to get into further argument. This is my last reply on the topic.

      --
      Favorite /. tagline: "On the eighth day, God created FORTRAN." And it was good.
    11. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by upsidedown_duck · · Score: 1

      What is the plan for dealing with Iraq if the citizens of Iraq vote in favor of a fundamentalist Islamic form of government that resembles the one currently existing in Iran?

      Well, if the people who wrote their constitution were smart, they would have already addressed this. Have they?

      --
      -- "Makes Little Debbie look like a pile of puke!" - Moe Szyslak
    12. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by strangel · · Score: 1

      This is an excellent question.

    13. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Iran, while non-democratic, is a pillar of stability and good government in the Middle East.

      What type of crack are you smoking? Of all the places in the middle east, Iraq had one of the most liberal and most secular governments. It's one middle eastern country that I would have actually felt safe to visit.. at least before the U.S. decided to fucked it up.

    14. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This isn't an issue, because there wont be a legitimate election.

      And given the lack of criticism of Bush showing off his current appointed Iraqi dictator puppet, no one here will notice.

    15. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Whyte · · Score: 1

      What will the kurds and the sunnis do if the parliment if 2/3 shia?

      If they are smart they will band together and demand a republican form of government.

      --
      -- No matter how great your triumphs or how tragic your defeats, approximately one billion Chinese couldn't care less.
    16. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by killjoe · · Score: 1

      "If they are smart they will band together and demand a republican form of government."

      HA HA HA HA. I almost fell out of my chair laughing that one. Imagine kurds and Sunnis banding together. It would never happen.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    17. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

      ie that the US will have a right to overrule the democratic wishes or the Iraqis when they finally get a vote

      It has nothing to do with the right to do so, and everything to do with the ability.

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
      (I read with sigs off.)
    18. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if the citizens of Iraq vote in a theocratic form of governance

      I suppose the PROPER choice would be to respect the democratic choice of the iraqi people. Something which I cant say have been done. Also, americans doesnt seem to have a very good idea on what democracy means seeing what happened in florida..

    19. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Kurds would probably attempt to seperate from the country and another neverending war would start.

    20. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would both candidates please give me their own personal definition of the word terrorist for the record?
      (and if you give an ambiguous definition I'll bomb something.)

    21. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by daveschroeder · · Score: 2, Informative
      The Iraqis don't want a fundamentalist Islamic form of government.

      "...54 percent [of Iraqis] said a parliamentary democracy would be acceptable, 42 percent said they would accept a council of elders and 20 percent said they would accept an Islamic theocracy. One percent said a Taliban-style regime would be acceptable." [1]

      "...73 percent of respondents said a new government should have freedom of religion..." [1]

      Also:

      "57 percent of [Iraqis] said life was better now than under Saddam, against 19 percent who said it was worse and 23 percent who said it was about the same." [2]

      "When asked what Iraq needs in five years, people were more likely to say an Iraqi democracy, 42 percent, followed by "a single strong leader," 35 percent." [2]

      [1] Source

      [2] Source Oxford Research International National Survey of Iraq

    22. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by crimson30 · · Score: 1

      So if there are all these factions out to kill each other, why don't they just divide up the country and seperate the populaces?

    23. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Abcd1234 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

      Okay, first, there's the disputes over land. Everyone will say everyone else's land is theirs. Not unlike the India/Pakistan conflict, or, you know, that whole Israel/Palestine thing. "[Dividing] up the country" is no where *near* as easy as it sounds.

      Then there's the issue of the Kurds. The presence of a Kurdish state in northern Iraq would likely destabilize what is already a volatile situation in neighbouring Turkey, which has a rather large Kurdish population that it works hard to subjegate.

      So, basically, what you suggestion would only work to further destabilize the region.

      Frankly, the fact is, if there's one thing Saddam did, it was maintain stability in a divided country. Yup, he did it with terror and totalitarian rule, but it was stable. Now, we have no idea what will happen, but, IMHO, it won't be good...

    24. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by bobdehnhardt · · Score: 1

      This question is far too leading. I think I'd rephrase it as:

      Are you prepared to recognize and accept whatever government is elected in Iraq, regardless of its form, bias or view of the United States, if the election is certified by international observers as being fair and uninfluenced?

      This brings the candidates to the core of what democracy is supposed to be: the will of the People. If they would only recognize a democratic government friendly to the US, they're more interested in building influence than in supporting democracy.

    25. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      So if there are all these factions out to kill each other, why don't they just divide up the country and seperate the populaces?

      It's a tough question, and one the USA should've thought hard about before launching their nation-building effort (in reality, many government thinkers did work on it, but Bush ignored them)

      The 3 simplest reasons why Iraq cannot be broken up:
      1. Oil is not spread through Iraq, it's concentrated in a few places. Those people living far from the oil will not accept breaking up the country, because they don't get sales revenue anymore.
      2. General weakness. The states split off from Iraq would have smaller militaries, and be unable to resist invasion from their neighbors (like Iran).
      3. The Kurdish group occupies the north of Iraq, along the Turkish border. But many Kurds live inside Turkey as well. They'd like to see south Turkey and north Iraq combine into Kurdistan. Of course, Turkey doesn't want this to happen, and will fight any division of Iraq.

    26. Re:18-35 #27 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by NSash · · Score: 1

      General weakness. The states split off from Iraq would have smaller militaries, and be unable to resist invasion from their neighbors (like Iran).

      When was the last time Iran waged a war of aggression?

      The Kurdish question, IMO, is the main reason that dividing the country would be infeasible.

  27. 18-35 #28 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Roblimo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Dear Sirs, what specifically are your plans to ensure both Iran and North Korea do not obtain nuclear missile capabilities and additionally, and what is your stance on the defense of Taiwan?

    1. Re:18-35 #28 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Spyffe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Other people have raised the nuclear proliferation issue. This question ought to be pared down to the Taiwan part, and asked. It will be a huge test of our country's resolve, and a defining moment in the international perception of the United States, if China attempts to invade Taiwan.

      --
      Sigmentation fault - core dumped
    2. Re:18-35 #28 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by helix400 · · Score: 1

      and what is your stance on the defense of Taiwan?

      George Bush, April 21, 2000: "Our nation will help Taiwan defend itself," he said. "At the same time, we support the one-China policy, and we expect the dispute to be resolved peacefully." Bush also said he would do "whatever it takes" to defend Taiwan from any Chinese attack http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/04/25/bush.tai wan.03/

      However, this was in pre 9/11 days, and our relations with China are much better now than in 2000. So perhaps this question needs to be asked again?

    3. Re:18-35 #28 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by ruprechtjones · · Score: 2, Informative

      ...what is your stance on the defense of Taiwan?

      This is a sticky issue that I haven't heard either candidates tackle. I would love to hear what they have to say about the forever-present China/Taiwan issue.

      --
      Kip Hawley is an idiot.
    4. Re:18-35 #28 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by helix400 · · Score: 1

      Oops, that's April 21, 2001

    5. Re:18-35 #28 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      North korea already has ballistic missle capability. It's how many of the countries in the mideast got their own missle capabilities.

      As for nukes, they've got those too. I don't know if they'll fit on their rockets though.

    6. Re:18-35 #28 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by C10H14N2 · · Score: 1
      US Foreign Policy is unwaveringly a "one China policy." This question will result in stump statements from both candidates:

      http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2004 /08/18/2003199216

      Even Bush backpeddles to "One China" despite making rather hostile off-the-cuff (and asinine, IMHO) statements to the contrary:

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/taiwan/Story/0,2763,4786 38,00.html

      This is invariably a "Speak softly, carry big stick" issue and you'll get essentially the same answer from either candidate, so, basically, don't bother.

    7. Re:18-35 #28 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by strangel · · Score: 1

      A more open-ended question would probably get a better response.
      My suggestion would be: "In light of the possibility that Iran and North Korea may have nuclear weapons in the near future, what are your plans to protect our national security from these possible threats?"
      This not only allows them to say what they would do to stop the development of the weapons, but it also asks what they will do if they can't stop the development.

    8. Re:18-35 #28 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by killjoe · · Score: 1

      The official US policy is that taiwan is a part of china.

      Changing that policy probably means a war is china and not even bush is that stupid.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    9. Re:18-35 #28 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      4 more years!

    10. Re:18-35 #28 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Bugmaster · · Score: 1
      This question should be split up into two:

      18-35 #28a: Dear Sirs, what specifically are your plans to ensure both Iran and North Korea do not obtain nuclear missile capabilities ?

      18-35 #28b: Dear Sirs, what is your stance on the defense of Taiwan?

      The original combo question is too unfocused to be useful.

      --
      >|<*:=
    11. Re:18-35 #28 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      Wow. They accuse Kerry of flip flopping yet here Bush does it *In the same sentence.*

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    12. Re:18-35 #28 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by helix400 · · Score: 1

      No. He said "As long as China doesn't attack, he supports the one-China policy. If China does attack, then he'll defend Taiwan." That's not a flip-flop, thats a two line policy statement.

    13. Re:18-35 #28 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given that an evil regime with weapons of mass
      destruction is the agreed-upon common criteria
      for invading a foreign country, what is your
      timeline for the invasion of North Korea?

  28. 18-35 #29 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Roblimo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In the light of 9/11, Palestinian militant groups were designated as terrorist groups. This action has precluded communications and these groups involvement in peace negations. How do you propose to break the deadlock in this peace process, and what is your vision for how this peace will look (statehood, disarmament, settlements, etc)? Will this action be taken by individual nations (the road map which was supported by the U.S., Russia, etc) or through the UN (Security Council resolution)?

    1. Re:18-35 #29 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by killjoe · · Score: 1

      The settlements are THE issue. Too bad nobody has to balls to deal with them.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    2. Re:18-35 #29 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by bofkentucky · · Score: 1

      How about the Arab insurgents hitting legitimate military targets and not busses and discos?

      --
      09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
    3. Re:18-35 #29 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Clearly you don't know what you are talking about. Withdrawal from essentially all the settlements was on the table before, and Arafat didn't seem very interested in pursuing that line of discussion. It's not on the table now because of the Intifada - the Palestinians haven't wanted peace negotiations, they've wanted blood. And they've gotten it.


      THE issue is the "right of return" and Israel's right to existence. If the Palestinians would forget about the first and acknowledge the second, 75% of Israelis would say fuck it, uproot the settlements.

    4. Re:18-35 #29 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by rossz · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sugar coating terrorists by calling them "militant groups" doesn't change the fact that they are terrorists.

      As for the road map. Arafat killed that by not stopping his terrorists, excuse me, "militant groups", from bombing woman and children.

      --
      -- Will program for bandwidth
    5. Re:18-35 #29 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      They *are* terrorist groups. They target civilians. Remember that pregnant woman who was killed with her children? When she was dead the terrorist shot her pregnant belly to make sure the baby died with her.

      If they targetted only military targets, they'd be militants. They target mainly civilians (especially kids and teenagers), so they're terrorists. It's really that simple.

    6. Re:18-35 #29 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why the conflict was raging for at least 50 years before the occupation and settlements existed (and before Israel existed too)?

    7. Re:18-35 #29 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by killjoe · · Score: 1

      Why don't we arm them so that they can. That would be fun to watch.

      Seriously though. Israel will kill itself. You can't occupy millions of people without killing the thing inside you that makes you human. You can see the soul of Israel already rotting away. The govt is rife with corruption, the populace continually calls for genocide and ethnic cleansing. Hard to believe the people who were on the receiving end of genocide have come full circle.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    8. Re:18-35 #29 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by lastmachine · · Score: 1
      Why not this version?:

      Ever since the arch-terrorist Yasser Arafat made it clear that he would accept nothing less than the complete destruction of Israel, by rejecting a deal that got him everything he asked for EXCEPT for that, we suspect that he is more interested in killing people than talking to them. This is all President Bush's fault.

      NVP a front for the left?

      http://powerlineblog.com/archives/007968.php

    9. Re:18-35 #29 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by ghereheade · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      ...and will your administration continue with an American policy that is strongly slanted to be pro-Israeli/anti-Palistinian? And if so, how will this improve our reputation with regards the perception held by a large percentage of people in the middle east and the third world?

    10. Re:18-35 #29 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and in all the US's bombing not a single child or woman was hurt? does that make those soldiers and by similar extension you, a terrorist? that words is the biggest semantic mindfuck. How does the word terrorist describe them any better than militant group/organization/whatever? It's like going to fight evil or the evildoers, you get to name anyone you don't like with it and then their actions can be taken out of their context because now they are terrorist actions, and actions against said terrorists can also be taken out of context and justified as actions against terrorists. Ok I'm going round in circles but that what that stupid word does.

    11. Re:18-35 #29 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by rossz · · Score: 1

      The difference is whether the civilians were purposely targeted or if there was a gross disregard for the safety of civilians. The U.S. military went out of it's way to avoid civilian casualties, more so than any other conflict in the history of the world. Of course there were civilian casualties. Only a fool would expect there not to be. Name a single war where civilians weren't killed.

      Terrorists, on the other hand, almost always target civilians. Those Hamas fucks especially like to target women and children. One example, they had a bomb planted in a road (this was in Israel). They waited until a military vehicle passed, which is a legitimate target, and detonated the bomb when a school bus (filled with children) was in position.

      Anyone who would call those animals "militants" is an idiot. They are terrorists. They are less than human. They need killing.

      --
      -- Will program for bandwidth
  29. 18-35 #30 LEGAL REFORM by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In light of a number of recent publicized legal cases, including the suing of illegal file sharers by the RIAA [Recording Industry Assoc. Amer.], it seems that our legal system is slanted to benefit those with money. Large companies and rich individuals can afford lengthy legal proceedings with multiple lawyers, while non-upper class individuals often do not have the same access. This forces many individuals to settle cases, even if they believe they have done nothing wrong. What can be done to fix this injustice?

    1. Re:18-35 #30 LEGAL REFORM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Study the law and find out that everything you thought you knew about how wrong things were with the law is wrong.

    2. Re:18-35 #30 LEGAL REFORM by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      The RIAA might be able to hire good lawyers, but they can't change the truth.

      You trolling, or do you really not have a clue as to how that works? It has nothing to do with the truth, it's simply who has deeper pockets. The one with more money drags the court case on and on through various lawyer tricks, and the one with less money is slowly bled dry paying his/her/their own lawyer until they can't afford it anymore and have to settle.

      And if music thieves don't believe they have done anything wrong, why are they settling?

      Ok, you ARE trolling.

    3. Re:18-35 #30 LEGAL REFORM by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      The RIAA might be able to hire good lawyers, but they can't change the truth.

      O. J. Simpson might be able to hire good lawyers, but he can't get away with slashing peoples' heads off.

    4. Re:18-35 #30 LEGAL REFORM by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      You trolling, or do you really not have a clue as to how that works? It has nothing to do with the truth, it's simply who has deeper pockets.

      Crack cocaine became a problem when rich white kids started smoking it, and filesharing will become a problem when politicians' children start getting busted for it.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:18-35 #30 LEGAL REFORM by samrolken · · Score: 1
      Somehow, I doubt that those sued by the RIAA for copyright infringement are settling for any other reason than that they are guilty as can be. Innocent people who didn't deserve to be sued would be confident of their ability to countersue the RIAA for legal costs. Guilty music thieves would know that paying a lawyer to defend their guilty asses would be stupid. Since they are guilty.

      Don't you have any explanation besides the nebulous term "lawyer tricks" to explain away your "the rich cheat justice" conspiracy theory?

      If the RIAA were really suing innocent people, their lawsuit wouldn't survive summary judgement in any court. There are many well-known mechanisms built into our justice system that require a case to be reasonable and viable before it is tried.

      --
      samrolken
    6. Re:18-35 #30 LEGAL REFORM by hype7 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      yes! but what about changing tack slightly; how about

      "do you think there is a relationship between the amount an organisation/corporation donates to a political candidate/party and the benefit that organisation/corporation in turn receives from politicians after the donation is made? Do you think this is how a democracy should work, with those making the largest donations getting the most attention from politicians? If not, what do you propose to do about it? "

      How about that?

      -- james

    7. Re:18-35 #30 LEGAL REFORM by gregmac · · Score: 1

      Innocent people who didn't deserve to be sued would be confident of their ability to countersue the RIAA for legal costs.

      Fair enough, but where do they get the money in the interm while they're getting sued? The other side has - for our purposes - infinite resources, and can drag a case on for a very long time. You need money to defend against them. Are you going to go to a bank to get a loan and tell them "Oh, don't worry, once I win this case and countersue, I'll be able to pay it back". Perhaps you could sell your car/house/etc and then just buy them all back after you win a countersuit a few years later?

      If the RIAA were really suing innocent people, their lawsuit wouldn't survive summary judgement in any court.

      Not necessarily. IANAL, but there needs to be some precidents set in order for this to happen. Off the top of my head (and maybe this is set already, who knows) how about downloading a song which you own on CD, instead of ripping it yourself? Or downloading a song from a CD you own that got scratched or broken? If there is a prior case that's been won on that argument that can be used as a precident, then maybe you could get it thrown out quickly (you'd still have to pay a lawyer to find this case, of course). And there's no guarantee you'll win a countersuit.

      If there are no prior cases, then it's a good chance to set one. Of course, you have to win. To win you have to spend money on lawyers. (see above). Of course, if you lose, then you set the wrong precident and make it incredibly difficult for anyone else to win again. Or perhaps you could get another loan, and appeal the decision....

      --
      Speak before you think
  30. 18-35 #31 LEGAL REFORM by Roblimo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Dear Mr. President and Senator, as a local nurse, I am interested in how you plan to help ease the stress many OB/GYN physicians and OB/GYN nurses have due to the ocean of malpractice lawsuits. How can you help us, as healthcare providers to NOT live in fear of undue lawsuits?

    1. Re:18-35 #31 LEGAL REFORM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here is some actual data on the subject:

      http://www.citizen.org/documents/ACF42D4.pdf

    2. Re:18-35 #31 LEGAL REFORM by dpille · · Score: 1

      I hate questions like this and would like to try to convince people not to moderate it higher.

      How can you help us, as healthcare providers to NOT live in fear of undue lawsuits?

      Um, do you really want the two candidates to give you an insurance agent's phone number?

      Seriously, this question starts with a much more identifiable political position than any other question I've read so far: that easy access to the courts is a bad thing. There are many people across a very broad spectrum of political bases that would totally disagree with this.

      Even the drug-war questions try to take a more unbiased starting point.

    3. Re:18-35 #31 LEGAL REFORM by RabidOverYou · · Score: 2, Funny

      This one, clearly, should be given to Vice Presidential candidate John Edwards. Though I've no doubt he could deliver a smooth-talk answer, smiling through sharks' teeth.

    4. Re:18-35 #31 LEGAL REFORM by TheMCP · · Score: 2, Informative

      Both candidates' positions on this topic are very much on record and, for that matter, predictable. (Malpractice lawsuits are a big republican bugaboo, Bush supports limiting awards severely. Democrats oppose limiting access to the court system, Edwards was a malpractice attorney.) Asking this in a debate would be a waste of time.

    5. Re:18-35 #31 LEGAL REFORM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't work in those fields. No one's forcing you.

    6. Re:18-35 #31 LEGAL REFORM by Bad+Vegan · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, the Evil Trail Lawyers knee-jerk response.

      Let's see, what exactly do trial lawyers like John Edwards do?

      They make sure that companies follow the law.

      And what exactly is wrong with that?

      Shouldn't these companies be following the law in the first place? Where's all the "tough on crime" words against cheating corporate greed-heads? Strangely enough, the hard-core "anti-crime" rightwing is essentially mute on issues of corporate crime.

      Well, not exactly mute: they want to cut back on our corporate policing system through their tort bashing. In other words, they want MORE criminals to go free.

      Try this one: Trail Lawyers Are Your Friends! :-)

      Yes, it sounds so crazy because the popular press (and many in the blog/web/zombie-libertarian fantasy world) alway beat up on class action lawsuits and trail lawyers.

      But the facts are simple:

      It's just common sense to have a way for people to make sure the laws are enforced....and it was built STRONGLY into our democracy: sometimes the people themselves need to seek redress in the courts when our elected representatives (and their appointed industry-approved regulators and gov't lawyers) won't act.

      This isn't just a good idea. It's a GREAT idea.

      It's strange that the loony right has such a problem with trail lawyers, class action lawsuits and the whole tort system, since it's based on a number of core conservative ideas:

      - The common person is wise (juries decide the cases).

      - Greed is used to motivate positive behavior (trail lawyers can make big $$$ (from the corps -- NOT the gov't) in the process of making sure our laws are enforced).

      - Don't trust the gov't (the gov't regulators may look the other way, but citizens can still seek relief through the courts).

      So here's John Edwards: a guy who made millions helping hold corporations accountable for things like unsafe trucker training and pool drains that literally suck the intestines out of five-year-old girls.

      I say we need more John Edwards. And even if he's a greed-head, at least he's making the world a better place at the same time. That much can't be said for the oil and military tycoons running our country now.

      Disclaimer: I'm neither a trail lawyer nor a Democrat.

    7. Re:18-35 #31 LEGAL REFORM by The+Rev · · Score: 1
      I would have thought that the ideal candidate would propose the de-medicalisation of pregnancy.

      Delivery has practically been re-classified as a biopsy. Nowhere (as I understand it) is this more prevalent than the US.

      Encouraging pregnant women to empower themselves and enjoy a delivery in a home birth setting would not only reduce the number of caesarian sections but would obviously reduce the amount of intervention that OB/GYNs currently practice. *That* would reduce the amount in undue lawsuits.

      Everyone wins. :-D

    8. Re:18-35 #31 LEGAL REFORM by RocketRainbow · · Score: 1

      Hmm, Australia has a similar issue. Studied this in law school. New Zealand has completely changed their personal injury policy. These are seen to be accidents, publicly insured and paid out by need. Not sure to what degree it covers medical malpractice, but if you have a car crash, the government just takes care of you. Now, if our American cousins have a problem, I'd say it is that you've no public health insurance at all. I can go to the doctor with a sniffle and pay nothing at all for the consultation. I can then get a prescription subsidised (if I need it) so that it comes in under $20. And that's it! Even contraceptives are subsidised. It's a good question, but too specific IMHO (and remember that I'm not a yank, so take my opinion or leave it). The issues are personal injury/negligence and health insurance.

      --
      *#*#*#*#*#******* I love peanut butter sandwiches!
    9. Re:18-35 #31 LEGAL REFORM by artemis67 · · Score: 1

      Your answer shows your ignornace. Every doctor already carries malpractice insurance. However, because of lawsuits the insurance premiums can rise to the point where his practice is insolvent.

      The problem stated in the question is really about the financial burden on the entire health care system.

      There does need to be some common sense reform to the way damages are awarded.

    10. Re:18-35 #31 LEGAL REFORM by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      Really?

      I can go to the doctor with a sniffle and pay nothing at all for the consultation.

      You really think you pay nothing? You don't see the problem with this? When everyone else is paying, you'll waste their money by going to the doctor with nothing more than "sniffles"?

      Believe it or not, in the U.S., if someone has been in an accident, they can go to the hospital and get treated wether they have insurance or not. It's the law - the hospital must treat them. It is true they will seek compensation later, but if someone really is that poor then the old saying applies: you can't get blood from a stone. If the hospital refuses to treat, they will most definately be punished.

      So you don't mind that, because it's "free", people are wasting your money going to the doctor for every bump and bruise and ache and pain? "Gee, I have a headache - but it might be an anurism, so I'd better go have that MRI... and why not? It's free, after all!"

      I'm not going to bash that system any more than to say that I disagree with it, I'd rather take personal responsibility for my family and myself... it might be nice to have "catastrophic" coverage, but even then you need to clearly define it... for most minor things (which is what the vast majority of people experience - colds, influenza, a broken bone here and there) it would be cheaper to have NO insurance.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    11. Re:18-35 #31 LEGAL REFORM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your answer shows your inablility to think things through before posting. Had the question been stated "how will you protect us from our fear of rising malpractice insurance premiums?" you might have a point. Even if "insurance premiums can rise to the point where (a) practice is insolvent" that's equally about pricing and collections for services as much as it is expenses.

      From a randome Google result
      National health care expenditures were an estimated $1.67 trillion in 2003.
      Believing that jury awards for damages could comprise more than a trifling percentage of this number shows your gullibility for eating up tort-reform proponents' fearmongering.

    12. Re:18-35 #31 LEGAL REFORM by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1
      Even if "insurance premiums can rise to the point where (a) practice is insolvent" that's equally about pricing and collections for services as much as it is expenses.

      Sounds good, but wrong. My wife is a podiatrist, which means that the wide majority of her patients are senior citizens and on Medicare. The government decides how much they will pay my wife, regardless of how much she thinks she should charge. So, we're caught in a position where her insurance is going up (although we're lucky - her increase this year was only $6,000) but she has no possible means of increasing her prices.

      Some specialties are different, sure, but that doesn't mean that every doctor (or even most of them) get to define their own market.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    13. Re:18-35 #31 LEGAL REFORM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, wait, why is the solution to attempt an indirect fix of malpractice insurance premiums by monkeying with court access or judgement ceilings, rather than taking the direct route of changing federal reimbursement policy?

      Seems to me that you could easily screw up 'justice' in the courts and not see any reduction in premiums. How many legitimate claims should be quashed in the name of 'doctors can't afford insurance because of Medicare'?

      My wife is a podiatrist

      My wife's a pediatrician, but it doesn't make self-interest blind me to reality.

      By the way, if it's the goverment that decides how much they'll pay her, how does that not relate to pricing and collections for services?

  31. 18-35 #32 MEDIA/DEREGULATION by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Nearly 100 American media resources today are owned by only 5 corporations. While the Senate's overruling of the FCC's controversial 3-to-2 decision to further deregulate media ownership rules in June of 2003 is a source of encouragement, most Americans want more variety in their sources of news and entertainment. What will you do to ensure that Americans have accurate sources of information to base their democratic decisions on?

    1. Re:18-35 #32 MEDIA/DEREGULATION by LostCluster · · Score: 1

      I don't see the problem. Just because a "Big 5" media interests have formed, it's no worse than the situation we had in the TV business before where a "Big 3" networks were the only ones capable of broadcasting to the whole nation. Five is a bigger number than three...

      While there are some megacompanies who own a lot of broadcasting assets... you can't say that the independent media has been stuck without a voice. Just look at all the problems bloggers are causing Dan Rather lately...

    2. Re:18-35 #32 MEDIA/DEREGULATION by bofkentucky · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Start your own damn network! It worked for Ted Turner and Rupert Murdoch, they were small businessmen at one time. Even Al Franken and company are giving capitalism a shot, trying their hand at Rush Limbaugh's game in talk radio.

      --
      09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
    3. Re:18-35 #32 MEDIA/DEREGULATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Um... Invent the Internet?

    4. Re:18-35 #32 MEDIA/DEREGULATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you believe they are actually going to do something about that? They're the same complex. Terrorism/media/politics. It's all the same thing. Terrorists and politicians need each other. Terrorism and the media need each other. They don't care about how much variety you get in your newsertainment.

    5. Re:18-35 #32 MEDIA/DEREGULATION by konekoniku · · Score: 1

      "most Americans want more variety in their sources of news and entertainment."

      Unless you can cite a scientific survey for this, it should be taken out from the question as it makes the questioner sound like he has an agenda going. An agenda isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in the context of a nationally televised presidential debate it's probably better to make questions as neutral as possible.

    6. Re:18-35 #32 MEDIA/DEREGULATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      it's no worse than the situation we had in the TV business before where a "Big 3" networks were the only ones capable of broadcasting to the whole nation.

      Back then, there was great variety in newspapers and radios. Most people didn't own TVs. Today, the "Big 5" control 95% of all media that the populace is exposed to. From television, to movies, to music, to radio, to magazines, and even newspapers.

    7. Re:18-35 #32 MEDIA/DEREGULATION by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      What will you do to ensure that Americans have accurate sources of information to base their democratic decisions on?

      Nothing, because it's not their job nor responsibility.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    8. Re:18-35 #32 MEDIA/DEREGULATION by MustardMan · · Score: 1

      Starting your own damn network requires access to a venue in whick to broadcast said network. This either requires a chunk of the radio spectrum from the FCC, which already licenses huge chunks to a relatively small number of entities, or access to cable television, which again is controlled by a very small number of entities. Very few Americans get their "news" from radio these days, and it's very difficult to get radio to a national level unless you're a syndicated dick and fart comedy morning show or buried so far in the AM dial that few people ever hear you.

    9. Re:18-35 #32 MEDIA/DEREGULATION by bofkentucky · · Score: 1

      Every one of those I mentioned started from scratch, it can be done, you just need the will (and the listener/viewer base) to go through it.

      --
      09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
    10. Re:18-35 #32 MEDIA/DEREGULATION by PMuse · · Score: 1

      Nearly 100 American media resources today are owned by only 5 corporations.

      First, I don't understand what the statistic is talking about -- "100" what? Second, I think it's probably wrong by vastly understating the problem.

      The top media corporations in America include Advance Publications, Disney, General Electric, News Corp., Time Warner, Viacom, and Vivendi Universal. You can go here to see who owns what. Where in 1983 it took 50 large corporations to accumulate control of half the media outlets, today 5 corporations control over half the outlets. Don't forget that there are also vastly more outlets today that were two decades ago.

      Some examples: Viacom's Infinity Broadcasting unit alone owns 184 radio stations. The infamous Clear Channel puts that to shame with over 1200 radio stations. As Clear Channel notes, there are over 13000 radio stations, not to metion the other types of outlets. The statistic in the question is at least confusing and probably badly wrong.

      This is an important topic, but please fact-check the question.

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
    11. Re:18-35 #32 MEDIA/DEREGULATION by MustardMan · · Score: 1

      Decided to do a little googling to see if I could substantiate your claims....

      Rupert Murdoch inhereted several newspapers, which he then built upon to create a vast multinational print empire, before he ever got involved in television. In the 80's he purchased Metromedia's independent television stations, which came with preexisting broadcast mechanisms. This was soon after his purchase of the fox movie studio, with the idea that the stations would serve as a distribution medium for the studio's programming. Therefore, not only did he not simply start his own network from scratch, as he was already a media mogul, but he used already existing stations to do so. This was in a time before today's modern media conglomerates, where such a large scale purchase of independent stations was possible. Today there are very few small independent stations, most of which are in small markets to begin with, and his approach would no longer be valid [source].

      Ted turner also inhereted a media-based business from his father, in this case a billboard business, and again started by purchasing a television station, in this case a UHF station based in Atlanta, in this case in 1970, again well before the dominance of today's media moguls.[source]

      So, if by "started from scratch" you mean "inherited a media business and used its profits to purchase previously existing television stations" then yes, both Murdoch and Turner started from scratch.

      So, apparantly all we need to "start our own damn networks" is a daddy already involved in a media-based business, television stations available for purchase, and a media business landscape similar to that which existed 30 years ago. Anybody here fit that description? Raise of hands? Beuller?

    12. Re:18-35 #32 MEDIA/DEREGULATION by bofkentucky · · Score: 1

      One man alone is not capable of creating a empire the size of Turner's or Murdoch's, and I never claimed they did, but if there are enough people of like mind who want to pool resources, there are ways to buy your own media empire. AOL might tire of TimeWarner or Disney of ABC, and Comcast has been mentioned to be on the auction block if the cash is sufficient.

      Either way, there is not a broadcast monopoly anymore in the US now that there options besides the Big three, and we are in much better shape than the Brits or Cannucks on choice in the media.

      I noticed that you aren't mentioning the powerful forces of "new" media either, talk radio and internet can make money if done right. Franken and his friends at Air America are just not selling a message that people want to hear.

      --
      09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
  32. 18-35 #33 MEDICAL by Roblimo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Though the U.S. is the undisputed world leader, we fall last in line behind all other industrialized countries when it comes to post-partum maternity benefits. With all the proven advantages of a mother staying home with her child during the first year of life, what do you propose for changes in legislature to ensure a woman is not only allowed time off to stay at home, but can afford to do so by being paid for that time?

    1. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      "Being paid for that time." For what and by whom? As important as care for infants is, why should an employer have to pay a person for an entire year for no work? Employers are not made of money. As much as we malign big-business CEOs and their golden parachutes, most Americans are employed by small businesses, who simply cannot afford to pay an "employee" for an entire year of no work. If such action were initiated, you would see a great many employers refuse to hire women of child-bearing age, simply because they would be afraid they would have to foot the bill for their child's care with no return on their expenditure.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    2. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who do you suppose would PAY for a woman to be paid for time which she is not contributing to the company she worked for? If you cannot afford to take time from work to have a child, do not do it. Simple as that. I would rather the US be LAST in benefits than for more of my hard earned money going to taxes which benefit those who do not deserve it, and have not earned it.

    3. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL by TheMCP · · Score: 1

      This is an excellent quality of life issue. While we're comparing our employment laws with other industrialized nations, we could also ask them why we have some of the least vacation rights in the civilized world.

    4. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL by karearea · · Score: 2

      Umm the world leader in what?

      Democracy? hehe giggle giggle - the rest of the world believes you - nudge nudge wink wink.

      Freedom? Yes right umm see above.

      Health Care? cough cough

      Crime? Ok you got me there, I accept that.

      Terrorism? Yep, I'd give that you are world leaders there as well - attacking soverign nations etc.

      Sigh it's a sad sad world.

    5. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jackass.

    6. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL by N3WBI3 · · Score: 1

      ANd we can ask why nations like france are considering reducing guarenteed benefits because they can no longer afford them..

      --
    7. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL by omega_cubed · · Score: 1
      what do you propose for changes in legislature to ensure a woman is not only allowed time off to stay at home, but can afford to do so by being paid for that time?

      So what are they to answer? That they will push for legislation that ensure a woman is not only allowed time off to stay at home, but can afford to do so by being paid? The president cannot do jack about the legislative branch (at least technically according to the separation of power build into the US government). All they can do is to try to push the agenda through. But that is already stated in the question...

      which means that the question basically just boils down to a "yes/no" question, to which, of course, both candidates will answer "yes".

      W

      --
      Engineers also speak PDE, only in a different dialect.
    8. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL by strangel · · Score: 1

      It shouldn't fall on government to foot the bill for women having babies. Doing something like this would basically say that as long as you keep having children, we'll keep mailing you a check for free. Not only that, but it further discourages planned parenthood. If you want to be off work for a specified amount of time to raise the child, I suggest that you put back the money required to do that before you decide to have the child.
      That said, this is a good question, because if the president wants to cater to the freeloaders of the nation, I want to know BEFORE I vote him into office. I would rephrase it though so that it doesn't lead the candidate into giving the response the original poser of the question wants to hear.

    9. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL by dago · · Score: 1

      Well, OTOH, France just introduced parental leave for fathers last year ...

      And, IIRC, on average, french workers work around 1450 hours/years for mor than 1800 for US workers (check OECD for real numbers). That's about 40 days more, there's still some room.

      --
      #include "coucou.h"
    10. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The money they make while... err... doing nothing (keeping a kid out of the criminal system maybe...) is dwarfed by the cost of the baby.

    11. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL by 808140 · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah, you earned it, alright. I bet you grew up in the ghetto with illiterate parents who were alcoholics and beat you. I bet you had a crime-ridden gang-dominated inner city high school to look forward to, which, despite the fact that you were certainly not one of the cool kids (hey, you post on Slashdot) and risked getting beaten up every time you went, you still attended regularly. I bet through your sweat and perserverence, you pervailed, walking through your gang-banger neighborhood out into the better burbs where there were libraries (where of course you needed to lay very low, lest you be harassed by cops on account of your being less fair in complexion than most of the residents) so that you could obtain non-graffiti laiden versions of the textbooks you needed to pass your classes. Classes, by the way, taught by the most inexperienced and underqualified teachers in America, as is the case in most poor neighborhoods.

      Then, because good universities like extracurricular activities, you tried your best to do community service and find constructive ways to better yourself, while your brother and his gang banger friends were living the thug life on easy money they got from selling cocaine. Despite their apparent success and your lack of a greater frame of reference, you believed the rich white senator types who said things like "Stay in school! It'll pay off in the end."

      After 4 arduous years you convinced someone to give you a scholarship to a local state school, maybe. Perhaps, if you were lucky, affirmative action helped, but probably not -- after all, why should the better off in society help those less fortunate? So you made your way through without any help. You got to university, and lived on what meager assistance you could eek out of what little money you were getting from odd jobs and whatever else -- maybe you ate rice and beans, and lived on the other side of the tracks where housing was cheaper -- until you finally got your degree in some useful, high paying discipline.

      Then you went out and, despite the fact that you only get paid cents on the dollar compared to a similarly qualified white applicant, you managed to build a living for yourself.

      You sir, are certainly to be commended. You don't need help from anyone.

      But lots of people aren't as fortunate. Most children abused by parents end up abusing their own children. Most kids in inner city schools drop out, prefering to make easy money illegally -- everyone they know ends up dead or in jail anyway, and jail is free housing and meals, more than they can expect at home. Most people that graduate from inner city schools still can't get into high school -- all high schools are not created equal, no matter what the rulebook says -- and if they do get in, they can't afford it. Even with all these hurdles, enough people do make it that competition for the dozens of adequate scholarships is cutthroat. Not to mention that if you were ever implicated in a drug bust (a common thing in poor neighborhoods) you aren't eligible for federal aid.

      Oh but wait, you're against federal aid. Don't want those undeserving people to take the money you rightfully earned, all by yourself, with no-one helping you.

      Seriously. Think about it.

    12. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL by The-Bus · · Score: 1

      "What do you propose for changes in legislature to ensure a woman is not only allowed time off to stay at home, but can afford to do so by being paid for that time?"

      Are you saying that the candidates should automatically agree to institute this quasi-socialist law? I don't have any problem with the "allowing time off to stay home" or "be guaranteed a job if I leave within the next X months" (where X paid for it? No. If you can't afford to have a child, do not have a child. Simple as that.

      --

      Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.

    13. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      If this were a possiblility, I would not hire women to work for me. In a professional office of 2-3 people, payroll is about 75-85% of gross receipts. Having to replace a single worker for a year and still pay the replaced worker would put my payroll over 100% of gross receipts. It's very hard to run a successful business that way.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    14. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      Not have a child if you can't afford it? You insensitive clod!

      Seriously, though, most folks never consider the financial implications of children. They're damned expensive. Personally, I think there should be a tax on children rather than a tax break/credit. They add expense to the society, not reduce it. I don't mind kicking in for the "public good," but it irked me that people with lots of kids didn't have to foot at least an equivalent part of the bill. Now I have a child, and take the deduction, and the credit, but I still think the system makes no sense. And yes, I'd be willing to pay extra for my child to have better schools, roads, parks, and whatnot. Of course, I'm only having one, because that's all I can afford.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    15. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL by jgrims · · Score: 1

      Why not? The federal government practices this every year!

    16. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. I do not live by the code of altruism. I do not believe that I benefit anyone by giving them a free ride. I have worked diligently to make it to the position I am in now, and while it may not make much more than for me to survive on, I do know that every bit of it is earned. I do not expect help from others as you seem to think should be the case. My NEED should be of no importance to anyone else. Need is the word of beggars and theives. Beggars do it with guilt. Theives do it at the point of a weapon. Is one less guilty than the other?

    17. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL by 808140 · · Score: 1

      The point of my post, friend, is that despite the misguided views to the contrary held by so many privileged middle income white males who post on Slashdot, you did not make it here by just working diligently, as you so eloquently put it.

      You got here by standing on the shoulders of your parents, your friends, your stable community, teachers that cared, etc, etc, etc.

      The point of my sarcastic rant was that unless you are the person that I described that really did do everything on his own and against the odds, you have benefited from the hard work and support of others, which you likely did not earn but rather were given as a birthright.

      This is not the case for the vast majority of non-white, non-middle income, non-male persons.

      Despite what Ayn Rand would have you believe, the world is not made up of Howard Roarks and you, in particular, are no exception. Inherited wealth and opportunity does not make you more capable or intelligent than someone with the misfortune of being born into less fortuitous circumstance.

      You had a safety net. Some people do not. It is society's responsibilty to provide at least a minimal one for them.

    18. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL by The-Bus · · Score: 1

      An interesting point. Unfortunately while we agree on us not footing the bill for kids, there's a (highly simplified) argument to look at. Just because it is simplified, of course, doesn't mean they are irrelevant.

      Let's assume, first of all that the net present cost of any child is $1,000,000 for a parent. That is, all the costs over the lifetime of the child total $1m in today's dollars. This is of course plausible since people with kids usually have much higher costs than people with no kids (or DINKs - double income no kids - as market demographers like to call them).

      The second question is, what are the net costs to society? These are costs that the parent does not directly or (100% indirectly) pay. For example, building prisons for kids that are criminals. The economic cost of maternity leave, etc. There's certainly a lot, and I'm not going to put a figure on this one. But there are also benefits. Certainly kids can turn out to be Picassos, or Einsteins, or Martin Luther King Jr.s. This of course can give immense benefits. Kids work for $8/hr at the mall so you don't pay too much for that shirt at 'Today's Man-Fashions of the USA'. If you want to be cynical, the Salvadorian 7-yr old who works in the sweatshop for $8/week is also giving you a benefit of a cheap shirt. Kids can bring joy. Kids pay for our budget deficits today. Etc.

      So, is the societal net cost of a child positive or negative? I would say that it is positive, and if so, it is unfair to make parents pay for someone who will not give them a net beneficial gain but will give society as a whole a benefit. So, to some extent, it is worthwhile to give tax breaks to "America's working families" (as the President*) likes to call them to ease the economic burden. Now those need to be within certain guidelines because I have no problem paying $3000/yr in taxes so my next door neighbor's kid goes to a good school but I don't want to pay $9000/yr in taxes so my neighbor's kid goes to a good school, dresses in whatever new clothes Eck comes out with that season and gets driven to school in his mom's new SUV which she bought with the tax break she got in 2003.

      So, yes, I will pay to make sure today's kids are well nourished, healthy, and educated (in that order), but not so their parents can buy them more PS2 games. But it is unfair to tax the parents who are providing the economy with cheap labor so I only pay $4 for a bucket of fries at the beach.

      * Any President.

      --

      Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.

    19. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My original post indicated that I am against paying taxes that go to people who do not deserve the money. That is entirely true. I am being forced, so to speak, to give 1/3rd of my pay to the government, so that 50 some odd percent can be then gifted to the "under priveledged" who have not earned it, and have come to EXPECT it from society. The theoretical person in your previous post would surely have earned that money. However, what do you think the ratio is between those who deserve it and those who do not?

      I will gladly give money/time/whatever else may be necessary to someone who deserves it, and who does not come to me believing he or she has a right to do so because it is society's responsibility.

      I do not deny that my life has been easier than others. I am reminded of it daily by reading the paper. However, there are many people that start life in better circumstances than I have had, and make more money than I do. Do they then owe ME something because they have it better, and I have to work harder to get to where they started?

  33. 18-35 #34 PERSONAL by Roblimo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Who is doing your respective jobs while you are campaigning? And if your job allows for the additional work that is put into campaigning, then what do you believe you could have accomplished if this were not a campaign year (assuming that you put this additional campaign work into your respective jobs)?

    1. Re:18-35 #34 PERSONAL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes, this is the lamest question ever.

    2. Re:18-35 #34 PERSONAL by strangel · · Score: 1

      I like this question because it basically asks "if you have enough free time to campaign like you do, when do you get any work done? what are we paying you so much for?"
      I wouldn't mind hearing their answers.

  34. 18-35 #35 PERSONAL by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What was the biggest mistake you made in the last four years? What were the negative repercussions of that mistake and what have you done to fix it?

    1. Re:18-35 #35 PERSONAL by Jerf · · Score: 1

      Oh, this one I'd like to see. It is a clear, short question and it will be obvious if they weasel. Which they both will, but something interesting may yet come of the answer.

    2. Re:18-35 #35 PERSONAL by elitman · · Score: 1

      Bush did a good job of avoiding this in an interview in the September 6 edition of Time Magazine (http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987, 1101040906-689397,00.html - sorry, you need to pay to read the article). He was asked directly what his biggest mistake was, and unabashedly avoided the question.

      I'd love to see it answered, but given this precedent it may be better to pose a less general question for which it will be more challenging to avoid.

    3. Re:18-35 #35 PERSONAL by dragunsflame · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Ha ha ha! Bush will never admit a mistake.

    4. Re:18-35 #35 PERSONAL by teamhasnoi · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Bush has already been asked this. A written version of this question will provide us some precious anecdote about how he shouldn't have gotten his dog fixed.

      here you go.
      Q Thank you, Mr. President. In the last campaign, you were asked a question about the biggest mistake you'd made in your life, and you used to like to joke that it was trading Sammy Sosa. You've looked back before 9/11 for what mistakes might have been made. After 9/11, what would your biggest mistake be, would you say, and what lessons have you learned from it?

      THE PRESIDENT: I wish you would have given me this written question ahead of time, so I could plan for it. (Laughter.) John, I'm sure historians will look back and say, gosh, he could have done it better this way, or that way. You know, I just -- I'm sure something will pop into my head here in the midst of this press conference, with all the pressure of trying to come up with an answer, but it hadn't yet.

      I would have gone into Afghanistan the way we went into Afghanistan. Even knowing what I know today about the stockpiles of weapons, I still would have called upon the world to deal with Saddam Hussein. See, I happen to believe that we'll find out the truth on the weapons. That's why we've sent up the independent commission. I look forward to hearing the truth, exactly where they are. They could still be there. They could be hidden, like the 50 tons of mustard gas in a turkey farm.

      One of the things that Charlie Duelfer talked about was that he was surprised at the level of intimidation he found amongst people who should know about weapons, and their fear of talking about them because they don't want to be killed. There's a terror still in the soul of some of the people in Iraq; they're worried about getting killed, and, therefore, they're not going to talk.

      But it will all settle out, John. We'll find out the truth about the weapons at some point in time. However, the fact that he had the capacity to make them bothers me today, just like it would have bothered me then. He's a dangerous man. He's a man who actually -- not only had weapons of mass destruction -- the reason I can say that with certainty is because he used them. And I have no doubt in my mind that he would like to have inflicted harm, or paid people to inflict harm, or trained people to inflict harm on America, because he hated us.

      I hope I -- I don't want to sound like I've made no mistakes. I'm confident I have. I just haven't -- you just put me under the spot here, and maybe I'm not as quick on my feet as I should be in coming up with one.

    5. Re:18-35 #35 PERSONAL by Analogy+Man · · Score: 2
      This is simply the best question in the bunch. GW's stupid answer to this question 4 1/2 years ago shows his true colors. After signing death warrents for hundreds of prisoners, signing hundreds of bills into law, "leading" corporations...the only thing he did wrong in his adult life was trading Sammy Sosa to the Cubs?

      Hubris is one of the more self destructive sins and I think this question revealed this fault in the President. After 4 years as the most powerful man in the world I would be VERY interested to hear if he has made a single mistake (in his own mind).

      --
      When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
  35. 18-35 #36 PERSONAL by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When is it appropriate for a leader to change their opinion? Both sides have been accused of flip-flopping on important issues - President Bush on establishing the Dept. of Homeland Security and steel tariffs, Senator Kerry on the Iraq war. But changing opinion due to thoughtful reconsideration ought not to be derided as flip-flopping. Tell us about a time when you had an honest change of opinion on a topic of national importance.

    1. Re:18-35 #36 PERSONAL by The+Pi-Guy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Additionally I think it's probably important to note the presence of 'rider bills' that ride on already-existing bills. That is what most 'flip-flopping' is all about.

    2. Re:18-35 #36 PERSONAL by buttahead · · Score: 1

      Nice question, but gives each side a way to get off the hook about some serious flipping by saying a few words which may not be true.

      Since I have trust issues about both, I'd like them to have to give real proof to their switch, not double talk. This could be a good one... a really good one.
      It might help if you nailed down the specific switch for each of them and make the answer for that incident only. don't let them pick an easy one.

    3. Re:18-35 #36 PERSONAL by strike2867 · · Score: 0

      The original definition of flip-flop was to say something and do something else at the same time. It sounds worse than what it actually means.

      --

      Vote for new mod!!! Score:-2,Imbecile
  36. 18-35 #37 PERSONAL by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What are the three written works or political thinkers that have contributed the most to your philosophy of governance, and why?

    1. Re:18-35 #37 PERSONAL by TheMCP · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Bush was asked similar questions several times over the last four years, and is on record as saying the only thinker he cares about is Jesus and he doesn't read anything but the Bible. Kerry could be asked about this at some other venue, and not waste time with such trivia at the debate.

    2. Re:18-35 #37 PERSONAL by c0dedude · · Score: 1

      Who cares? Ask a policy question. This tells us nothing about how they will govern. Theory gets thrown out the window when the rubber hits the road and leaders start asking their advisors. Remember how Bush didn't want to be involved with nationbuilding?

      --
      Since when has this country used intellectual elite as a pejorative term?
    3. Re:18-35 #37 PERSONAL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very very good question. can't wait for the answers.

    4. Re:18-35 #37 PERSONAL by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      I think you're taking that to a few extremes. He's said that his favorite philosopher was Jesus. He's said he reads the Bible. But he has no said that the only thinker he cares about is Jesus, nor has he said that he only reads the Bible.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    5. Re:18-35 #37 PERSONAL by This+is+outrageous! · · Score: 1
      What are the three written works or political thinkers that have contributed the most to your philosophy of governance, and why?

      Please, please add "other than the Constitution and the Bible" -- or we won't know if they've even read 3 books.

      --
      This is...

      O
      U
      T
      R
      A
      G
      E
      O
      U
      S

      !

    6. Re:18-35 #37 PERSONAL by TheMCP · · Score: 1
      But he has no said that the only thinker he cares about is Jesus, nor has he said that he only reads the Bible.
      I don't remember his exact wording about Jesus, so I won't argue that one. As for reading, he has said he doesn't read other books, or magazines, or newspapers, or any other news source. I suppose he must read official paperwork, if you want to count that for purposes of this discussion.
    7. Re:18-35 #37 PERSONAL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure I want to hear Bush's answer. I'm too afraid he'll answer 1984, The Prince, and Horton Hears a Who.

    8. Re:18-35 #37 PERSONAL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pshaw. He clearly aspires to emulate Sam-I-Am from "Green Eggs and Ham" -- pestering Iraq until it agrees to try democracy.

      I'm going to cry now.

  37. 18-35 #38 SOCIAL SECURITY by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In regards to social security, as a professional 25-year-old worker I'm concerned that I'm paying into a system, which is severely over-taxed and will be non-existent when I reach retirement. I would like to know what steps will be taken to either ensure I will get the benefits I've paid for, or to allow me to no longer contribute to Social Security and use that extra income to invest myself for my retirement, most likely a Roth IRA.

    1. Re:18-35 #38 SOCIAL SECURITY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      President Bush ran on a platform of individual retirement accounts in the last election and I haven't heard of a position change. Kerry has expressed a desire for the current system, with older ages and lower benefits.

    2. Re:18-35 #38 SOCIAL SECURITY by buttahead · · Score: 1

      I'm for bush... but I think that this statment needs research. Kerry is a bone head, but would he really go that far? $DEITY help us.

    3. Re:18-35 #38 SOCIAL SECURITY by Murdock037 · · Score: 1

      The threat to Social Security is overhyped.

      As things are running right now, the Social Security trust fund is large enough to keep running for seventy years, because of a small increase in the SS tax during the Reagan administration. That increase was designed to prevent the exact sort of problem you're worried about.

      The way you phrase your question implies to me that you already know the answer you'd prefer: Privatization, which is something President Bush has been promising since his 2000 campaign.

      Unfortunately, privatizing Social Security now would require one of two things: benefit cuts, or a massive infusion of government cash. The money going into the system now supports today's seniors, as it always has; to take away that money (and place it in private accounts) would leave a gaping hole in the system until people your age retire and can access those accounts.

      Most estimates I've read indicate that, to cover this hole, the government would have to pay about $2 trillion.

      Incidentally, allowing people to invest their Social Security funds would mean that many, many people lose that money, as any investor in the stock market might. The Social Security system is a safety net, but with a privatized system it would disappear for the people without investing experience-- the poor, the people who need the safety net the most.

    4. Re:18-35 #38 SOCIAL SECURITY by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      The money going into the system now supports today's seniors, as it always has;

      Why do people always neglect to comment on the huge percentage of Social Security payouts that go to people who aren't seniors? Why does nobody ask about the criterion for collecting from Social Security Disablilty? If you are disabled and can no longer do your job, but you are able to do other jobs, why are you eligible to sit on your ass and collect anyway?

      Why doesn't anybody talk about the length of retirement? With life expectencies increasing, why is the expected length of retirement as measured by the amount of time elegible to collect Social Security increasing without a similar increase on the length of time we expect people to continue to be productive and working members of society?

    5. Re:18-35 #38 SOCIAL SECURITY by Kohath · · Score: 1

      In regards to social security, as a professional 25-year-old worker I'm concerned that I'm paying into a system, which is severely over-taxed and will be non-existent when I reach retirement. I would like to know what steps will be taken to either ensure I will get the benefits I've paid for, or to allow me to no longer contribute to Social Security and use that extra income to invest myself for my retirement, most likely a Roth IRA.

      Editing.

      I'm 25 years old and I am concerned that the Social Security program I'm paying into won't be around when I retire. If I could opt-out of Social Security, I could invest the money myself. How will you ensure the benefits will be available when people like me retire in 40-50 years? Will you offer a way to opt-out or some other kind of private account for Social Security?

      Ok, that's not much shorter. Clearer, I think.

      Excellent question.

    6. Re:18-35 #38 SOCIAL SECURITY by strangel · · Score: 1

      This is a very relevant question. Good job.

    7. Re:18-35 #38 SOCIAL SECURITY by killjoe · · Score: 1

      Most people get way more out of social security then they pay in. You won't do nearly as well with an IRA.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    8. Re:18-35 #38 SOCIAL SECURITY by zpok · · Score: 1

      Why not vote for the guy with the most realistic and humanitarian social security ideas?

      Um, too simplistic?

      In my mind that would be Kerry btw, but I realise that in the US nothing is simple.

      --
      I think, therefore I am...I think.
    9. Re:18-35 #38 SOCIAL SECURITY by gfxguy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      On the other hand, with a private account, if you die before you retire, the money is still there - you've been saving your whole life and can still give that benefit to your adult children, or make your grandchildren beneficiaries.

      So while the average lifespan increases, so does the retirement age, and so does the chances that you and your family will see much less of what you've actually invested.

      To detractors of privatization, I can only say this - while the stock market has it's ups and downs, wise and diverse investing averages more than a 10% return. As people approach retirement age, more should be turned into bonds and less risky investment. Nobody following the plan, over the course of an adult life (say 25 to 70) ends up losing money. The only problem is that you can't trust people to take personal responibility for themselves - the so called "safety net" is for people, for whatever reason, who won't take care of their finances on their own.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    10. Re:18-35 #38 SOCIAL SECURITY by The-Bus · · Score: 2, Informative

      Rewriting: In regards to social security, as a professional 25-year-old worker I'm concerned that I'm paying into a system, which is severely over-taxed and will be non-existent when I reach retirement. I would like to know what steps will be taken to either ensure I will get similar benefits to what I would receive if I retired today, or to allow me to no longer contribute to Social Security in any way.

      Bush sort of explained the answer in his 2004 State of the Union address: "My administration is promoting free and fair trade to open up new markets for America's entrepreneurs and manufacturers and farmers -- to create jobs for American workers. Younger workers should have the opportunity to build a nest egg by saving part of their Social Security taxes in a personal retirement account. We should make the Social Security system a source of ownership for the American people. And we should limit the burden of government on this economy by acting as good stewards of taxpayers' dollars."

      So, from my limited understanding, you can choose to have Social Security put into the market, pre-tax, similar to what 401(k)s and Roth IRAs are doing. By changing the question to not contributing at all, you remove this option.

      Personally, I'd like to see Social Security phased out in the next 30 years. That's right, today's 35-45 year olds. You better start saving.

      --

      Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.

    11. Re:18-35 #38 SOCIAL SECURITY by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      Even if what you say is true (it depends on your circumstances), if I die before I reach retirement age, my family is entitled to everything I've saved. With S.S. it's just gone.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    12. Re:18-35 #38 SOCIAL SECURITY by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      Only if you think a pyramid scheme is realistic...

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    13. Re:18-35 #38 SOCIAL SECURITY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "As things are running right now, the Social Security trust fund is large enough to keep running for seventy years, because of a small increase in the SS tax during the Reagan administration. That increase was designed to prevent the exact sort of problem you're worried about."

      Except that we're spending that money right now, and the SS trust fund is full of IOUs.

    14. Re:18-35 #38 SOCIAL SECURITY by zpok · · Score: 1

      Don't know about that, but am mighty glad to once more live in a country with SS. The alternative was too brutal to see and strangely enough a lot more expensive.

      I prefer bitching about taxes over ignoring beggars every single fucking day.

      But each to his own...

      --
      I think, therefore I am...I think.
    15. Re:18-35 #38 SOCIAL SECURITY by killjoe · · Score: 1

      It's not gone. It goes to support other people. In the long run this makes for a more stable society because people don't have to resort to desparete measures to support their elderly parents.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    16. Re:18-35 #38 SOCIAL SECURITY by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      If someone has to go to desparate measures to support their elderly parents, then the elderly parents did not plan well for their future - and you want the rest of the world to pay for it.

      Look, I don't want people to go without, I just don't agree with the logic that everyone else should HAVE to pay for it. I don't have all the answers, but I do know that rewarding a bad behavior only encourages it - the current system encourages people not to save their money because the government will take care of them.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    17. Re:18-35 #38 SOCIAL SECURITY by killjoe · · Score: 1

      "If someone has to go to desparate measures to support their elderly parents, then the elderly parents did not plan well for their future - and you want the rest of the world to pay for it."

      I am just saying that the rest of the country (not the world) will pay for it anyway. Long time ago there was no such thing as social security. It was invented because it was needed. If it did not exist you might have to pay extra to fund more law enforcement or more jails because people would resort to selling drugs or stealing in order to pay for their fathers medicines or operation.

      I just don't get the liberterian types at all. Social security, medicare, medicaid, public schools etc are all relatively new things. The country ran without them for quite a long time but it did not work out. People invented those things to solve problems liberterianism created.

      --
      evil is as evil does
  38. 18-35 #39 SOCIAL SECURITY by Roblimo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Let's look ten years out. Since we have a wave of baby boomers planning on retirement, what effect will their retirement have on me, my family, and the nation as a whole? How will we pay for the trillions that Social Security, Medicaid, and all of the other entitlement programs need to be handled? How does having countries like Japan who are buying our debt change the equation? How does the fact that Japan is heading for their baby boom retirement in 4 years change our equation?

    1. Re:18-35 #39 SOCIAL SECURITY by strangel · · Score: 1

      This question is quite similar to the previous question, though wider in scope. Perhaps the two should be combined.

    2. Re:18-35 #39 SOCIAL SECURITY by PMuse · · Score: 1

      How does having countries like Japan who are buying our debt change the equation? How does the fact that Japan is heading for their baby boom retirement in 4 years change our equation?

      This part of the question is interesting. The first half is nothing more than another invitation for the campaigns to repeat the meaningless drivel they've been saying for years. There is no hope of getting a meaningful answer on social security out of a presidential candidate before an election. The AARP would eat them alive.

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
  39. 18-35 #40 OTHER by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What is your take on so-called "intellectual property"? Would you veto any attempt to extend the duration of copyrights yet again? Would you attempt to reign in the range of software patents to prevent patents on ideas and trivialities to stifle innovation?

    1. Re:18-35 #40 OTHER by Jerf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Drop the first part of the question. All it will draw are generic homilies about the importance of IP, how wonderfully innovative Americans are, and how Americans will be more innovative with me than the other guy.

      Specificity doesn't guarentee answers, but it makes evasion more obvious and sometimes that's all you can hope for.

    2. Re:18-35 #40 OTHER by LostCluster · · Score: 1

      OBJECTION! Leading the wit-less... The use of the word "so-called" does nothing but express the question-writers view on the issue. We shouldn't be telling the candidates how we want them to answer our questions... they should be telling us what they think about the issue.

    3. Re:18-35 #40 OTHER by Moofie · · Score: 1

      "Reign" means to rule, as in the reign of Queen Elizabeth.
      "Rein" means to change direction or stop, as in reining in a horse.

      Rein is correct in your sentence.

      Just in case you were curious.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    4. Re:18-35 #40 OTHER by strangel · · Score: 1

      Nix the first sentence, then you've got a good question.

    5. Re:18-35 #40 OTHER by Ogerman · · Score: 1

      This is the wrong way to ask about what is a more fundamental issue. You're just begging to get a canned response like "We must continue to evaluate blah blah blah.. balance.. blah blah" because the candidates don't have a clue what software patents are all about. The issue should be explicitly "Do you support copyright and patent reform that many are now calling for?" and the concern should be something along the lines of "Entrepreneurs are increasingly concerned that the current system stifles the ability to innovate because it gives too much power to those with enormous legal war chests and does not put reasonable boundaries on the extent and duration of granted monopoly rights."

  40. 13 - 17 #1 TEEN PREGNANCY/SEX EDUCATION by Roblimo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Considering the reality of the rise in teenage pregnancies, what is your position on the availability of contraceptives, medical care, education and coverage for these health services for teens? Does your position realistically deal with the consequences of teenage pregnancy and teen parents, the resulting poverty, and the rise in back-alley abortions and abandoned newborns? What will you do as president to address this issue, and why?

    1. Re:13 - 17 #1 TEEN PREGNANCY/SEX EDUCATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Although this is an excellent question, it is not technically correct to begin the question with, "Considering the reality of the rise in teenage pregnancies." In the US, the teen pregnancy rate has been falling in recent year, despite scare stories from the Right Wing.

    2. Re:13 - 17 #1 TEEN PREGNANCY/SEX EDUCATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What reality? Teenage pregnacy rates have been declining for more than a decade.

    3. Re:13 - 17 #1 TEEN PREGNANCY/SEX EDUCATION by drinkypoo · · Score: 0

      Does your position realistically deal with the consequences

      What exactly are they going to say, "No, my position is totally unrealistic. I am completely unprepared for this question because I am an idiot"? Drop this part of this question.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:13 - 17 #1 TEEN PREGNANCY/SEX EDUCATION by Matrix14 · · Score: 1

      According to a recent NYT article, teenage pregnancy is at an all time low. As in, a low for as long as they've been keeping such statistics.

    5. Re:13 - 17 #1 TEEN PREGNANCY/SEX EDUCATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep. Anal sex is doing its job!

    6. Re:13 - 17 #1 TEEN PREGNANCY/SEX EDUCATION by Kohath · · Score: 1

      Answer:

      Wow, if it's that much of a problem, I guess I'll have to stop getting teenagers pregnant. Thanks for the heads-up.

    7. Re:13 - 17 #1 TEEN PREGNANCY/SEX EDUCATION by strangel · · Score: 1

      I think this is a valid question that would provide valuable information. However, I would suggest incorporating the changes listed in the above comments to make the question more accurate.

    8. Re:13 - 17 #1 TEEN PREGNANCY/SEX EDUCATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish there was a mod thingy for

      "-1 Uninformed / Ignorant American"

      We could even leave the American part out, as that is pretty much implied.

    9. Re:13 - 17 #1 TEEN PREGNANCY/SEX EDUCATION by Aidtopia · · Score: 1

      It's a good question, but I don't like the way it starts with a falsehood. Teenage pregnancies and births have been dropping dramatically and continuously for over a decade. A simple web search finds lots of reliable sources for that. Despite that, the US teenage pregnancy rate is still high compared to other industrialized nations even though US teens are no more sexually active than teens in those countries.

      I recently read about a medical study that showed teenage pregnancy can be a good thing. If you adjust for level of prenatal care and economic status, teenaged mothers have the healthiest children and suffer the fewest lasting medical problems from giving birth compared to "adult" women. So biologically, teenage pregnancy is a good thing (if you're into procreation). Socially, however, it's a big problem because we expect people to "grow up" slower. People spend more years in school, enter the work force later, get married older than ever before.

    10. Re:13 - 17 #1 TEEN PREGNANCY/SEX EDUCATION by PMuse · · Score: 1

      Redundant. You will get the exact same response on 18-35 #15, 18-35 #16, and 13 - 17 #1. The response will be campaign boilerplate. We don't need to hear it more than once, if that.

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
  41. 13 - 17 #2 SPECIAL EDUCATION by Roblimo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I am 15 and learning disabled because of a serious heart condition. I am having a difficult time in school. I face increased pressure with the "no child left behind" rules. I get pushed and I cannot keep up. My sister is autistic. I need to know where she will go when she is older. Her school may have to close because they are not getting funding. Why is no one stepping forward to support the growing need for special education?

    1. Re:13 - 17 #2 SPECIAL EDUCATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because there are more promising people to tend to.

    2. Re:13 - 17 #2 SPECIAL EDUCATION by mhollis · · Score: 0, Troll

      Because "No Child Left Behind" really means "No Wealthy White Non-disabled Child Left Behind."

      --
      Gods don't kill people, people with gods kill people.
    3. Re:13 - 17 #2 SPECIAL EDUCATION by Jardine · · Score: 1

      I am 15 and learning disabled because of a serious heart condition. I am having a difficult time in school.

      Could someone with medical training let me know how a heart condition affects your ability to learn? Unless it's either not pumping enough blood to the brain now or didn't pump enough blood to the brain early in life.

    4. Re:13 - 17 #2 SPECIAL EDUCATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My sister is autistic. I need to know where she will go when she is older.

      If she doesn't get cured, probably a home or halfway house if your family cant afford the time or money to take care of her.
      But make sure you get her tubes tied before you send her away.
      I've worked around those homes, lots of rape and abortions going on there.

    5. Re:13 - 17 #2 SPECIAL EDUCATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could someone with medical training let me know how a heart condition affects your ability to learn?

      Have you ever had one of those days when you just don't seem to have enough energy to wake up, much less focus on anything? What if it was always like that?

    6. Re:13 - 17 #2 SPECIAL EDUCATION by benj_e · · Score: 1

      This is a great question. Special needs/special education is a growing issue in schools all over the US. In fact, there is a fairly severe shortage of special ed teachers nationwide.

      The problem with No Child Left Behind is that it requires 100% mastery by 2014. It is obvious to anyone in the field that special needs children will never be able to meet the same mastery standards as non-LD kids.

      --
      The Tao that can be spoken is not the one eternal Tao
    7. Re:13 - 17 #2 SPECIAL EDUCATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WTF? We aren't building a 1000 year reich here, asshole. This is a civil society. Promising my ass.

  42. 13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why do you say bad things about each other? When I grow up and become President I will be truthful and honest and I won't talk bad about the other guy. You both have a war against each other and you are forgetting we don't care about your war but we care about the War in Iraq. I would like for you to say one good thing about each other.

    1. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by Spyffe · · Score: 1

      This is a fantastic question. I wish I had mod points. Some weaseling may be done here, but fundamentally it should be interesting to see the results.

      --
      Sigmentation fault - core dumped
    2. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by be-fan · · Score: 4, Funny

      When I grow up and become President I will be truthful and honest and I won't talk bad about the other guy.

      Ah, the idiocy of youth...

      --
      A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
    3. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by stevesliva · · Score: 1
      This was worded by a teenager? Sounds more like a condescending adult trying to sound young.

      And not that this is a court, but asked and answered, your honor.

      --
      Who do you get to be an expert to tell you something's not obvious? The least insightful person you can find? -J Roberts
    4. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by MacDork · · Score: 1

      And when you are done, why don't you guys try being honest with the public for once. After being bombarded with your flagrant lies to the American public, I am only encouraged to vote third party. Try being leaders instead of misleaders for a change. "I actually voted for the 87 Billion dollars before I voted against it." Yeah, and we all know the final approval for the bill in the Senate was a voice vote, that Kerry didn't even attend. Of the 6 senators that bothered to show up, Byrd was the only one to vote against it.

    5. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kindergarden class question prompted by teacher?
      Worst.......thread...........ever.

    6. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by Goonie · · Score: 1
      This is a really stupid question, I have to say.

      What Kerry says about Bush is incredibly mild compared to what the rank-and-file in the Democratic Party really think of the guy - and I'd imagine the same applies from the other angle. The bad things that they say about each other are phrased in terms of political theatre, but they stem from sincere and deeply held beliefs. In the case of Bush, they think (amongst other things) he's an idiot who led the country into an unnecessary war that has resulted in the deaths of over 1000 Americans, God knows how many thousand Iraqis, cost over 200 billion dollars, has been the best recruiting tool Osama bin Laden could have dreamed of, and will end up leaving Iraq in a worse state than it was under Saddam, murderous thug he may have been.

      Now, I understand that if you're a Republican, you probably disagree with the above, and I'm not really interested in getting into a debate over the merits of this viewpoint. The point is that most Democrats believe it. And if you think that way, wouldn't you get a little annoyed with the man responsible?

      --

      Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
      --Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
    7. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by quantaman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I really don't know about this question. There MIGHT be a possbility it that it could come across as cute and be tough for them to evade without sounding heartless but frankly it sounds REALLY childish. The "When I grow up and become President" bit is just begging for an evasive side track. The whole tone of the question just detracts from the seriousness and intelligence of what I feel are some really excellent questions being asked elsewhere. Instead try something like,

      "Negative advertising is growing more common in political campaigns. To what degree do you feel that it's appropriate to restrict smear campaigns through the restriction of certain types of free speech?"

      For something like this you have to be specific to get anything but a pile of fluff, anyone have any further refinements?

      --
      I stole this Sig
    8. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by buttahead · · Score: 1

      and that helps the rest of the country how? bad question. both people can stroke each others egos, but it doesn't help the county run.

      I don't need to feel warm and fuzzy about my president. I need him to make good decisions for my safety. if that means telling me that the other guy is a bad man that can't make good decisions, so be it. if he can prove it, then i say well met. walk softly, but carry a big stick. don't ram the other guy into the ground unless you are justified, but don't let him slide by because you are a nice guy.

    9. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is, any time Democrats disagree with a Republican President, they make them out to be bumbling morons or insane lunatics. Nixon, Ford, Reagan, W.Bush...this is just standard fare for the Democrats. If this was unique to W.Bush it might be one thing, but this is literally just a rehash of what Democrats have been doing for the last 30+ years. No one takes Democrats seriously, and they sound quite childish when they call the Republican Presidents "stupid".

    10. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      This is sweet and innocent but both of them will take this chance to say a bunch of noncommital "good" things about the other person, or say something committed but undeniable about them that talks about a matter of public record, and it wastes a "real" question. They will each say one good thing about the other, and it will tell us nothing.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    11. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      Not really. They're both giving to give mindless platitudes like "He really loves his country," or "he really cares about his family." No information results from this question.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    12. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by sockonafish · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The true ignorance in this statement is that the writer thinks that that the candidates are out on some vengeful, hateful quest against eachother, and sling all the mud that they do because of their hatred.

      In reality, it's because the American public responds more to mud-slinging than it does to honest political discourse.

    13. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by c0dedude · · Score: 1

      Who gives a shit, honestly? They say bad things about each other because each has a legitimate critique of the other's policies. An election should give people an idological choice. To say only happy things about the policies of the other prevents meaningful discourse.

      --
      Since when has this country used intellectual elite as a pejorative term?
    14. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by upsidedown_duck · · Score: 1


      This reminds me of an episode of Jay Leno a while back where Arnold Schwarzenegger and Gray Davis came out, shook hands, sat right next to each other, and said they are each supporting the same bill in California. Even after the recall and public mauling, Davis was actually quite cheerful and joking about his recent acting roles. The whole thing really took me by suprise.

      --
      -- "Makes Little Debbie look like a pile of puke!" - Moe Szyslak
    15. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by WindowLicker916 · · Score: 1

      GREAT question. This i've got to see!!

    16. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by strangel · · Score: 1

      First of all, this question should be re-worded immediately.
      Secondly, this would make a good exercise, but it's a horrible question. Despite that, I would be interested to hear what their responses would be.

    17. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by immagain · · Score: 1

      -1 Foolishly Idealistic

      --

      Power is given only to him who dares to stoop and take it -- Dostoevsky

    18. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, the idiocy of youth...

      I'm stunned. I expect to see the idiocy of youth in the presidential debates, but on slashdot?

    19. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by nutshell42 · · Score: 1
      When I grow up and become President I will be truthful and honest and I won't talk bad about the other guy.

      you meant: When I grow up I...
      a) will become President
      b) will be truthful and honest
      c) won't talk bad about the other guy
      (choose one)

      I would like for you to say one good thing about each other

      That would be really interesting to hear. Especially if we get platitudes (my opponent is a good man), camouflaged attacks ("I admire his strong convictions. Even after Iraq turned into the disaster it is he still believes he did the right thing" "I like his ability to change his opinions like his underwear - every week a new one") or something resembling honesty ("no comment on this one"). I'd bet on platitudes but you never know

      --
      Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
    20. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by wikdwarlock · · Score: 1

      From the mouths of babes...

      This is a refreshing submission, but will not get anywhere with the candidates.

      "President Bush is a snappy dresser."

      "Senator Kerry has nice penmanship."

      If we don't trust the candidates to be honest in their smear campaigns, we can't trust them to be honest (or sincere) in their praise of their opponents either.

      --

      "I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer." -Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
    21. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      Kerry: "President Bush has very nice hair."

      Bush: "Senator Kerry has a very firm handshake."

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    22. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by suwain_2 · · Score: 1

      I like this question. On first glance, this seemed like a ridiculous question, one not fit to pass on.

      But I think it would be really interesting to see what they say if they're each asked to say one good thing about the other. It could really set the tone.

      --
      ________________________________________________
      suwain_2 :: quality slashdot p
    23. Re:13 - 17 #3 ISSUES OF MORALITY by GenSolo · · Score: 1

      Bush: "Senator Kerry served his country braveley during the war in Vietnam. Thank you Senator." (note: He's said essentially this several times; it's every other prominent Republican who bashes Kerry on Vietnam.)

      Kerry: "President Bush rallied the country after September Eleventh and during the war in Afghanistan."

      Both of them are perfectly willing to make such concessions; however, we all know that the next sentence would be bashing them for something they did right after. Bush would complain about Kerry's behavior after the war, and Kerry would complain about Bush's pursuit of the war in Iraq. Would either of those statements be sincere? Probably not, but they would pretend to be sincere and may even have a stock response in case they get asked this or a similar question in the third debate.

  43. 13 - 17 #4 ISSUES OF MORALITY by Roblimo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If our society were to take a dramatic downfall in morals, what would be the best course of action? Who decides what is moral, and why are we basing our legislation on a book that was written centuries ago?

    1. Re:13 - 17 #4 ISSUES OF MORALITY by orthogonal · · Score: 4, Funny

      Who decides what is moral

      John David Ashcroft, at the direction of Jesus H. Christ!

      Any questions?

      Ask 'em in Guantanamo!

    2. Re:13 - 17 #4 ISSUES OF MORALITY by WebMasterP · · Score: 1

      Why was this modded as Flamebait, comedic purposes?

      This is actually a decent question. With the Bush administration seemingly making an attempt to blur the line between church and state, why not ask this question? Many Americans, including myself, find the lack of separation between church and state is becoming a major problem. This question also has its branches into topics like gay marriage.

    3. Re:13 - 17 #4 ISSUES OF MORALITY by PMuse · · Score: 1

      The responses to this are predicatable.

      Canditate A: Our society has already taken a dramatic downfall in morals. The only way to resurrect it is by the grace of a book that contains the living, eternal word of God.

      Candidate B: We need to allow individuals the freedom to worship as they choose and to adhere to their own moral codes. Living together requires tolerence.

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
    4. Re:13 - 17 #4 ISSUES OF MORALITY by PMuse · · Score: 1

      Redundant. Redundant. Questions 13 - 17 #7 and 13 - 17 #4 will be given the exact same boilderplate answer and it won't acutally answer either question. Both candidates will profess to be Christians, but will claim to be capable of governing fairly people of other faiths. Skip this question.

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
  44. 13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Today, where you're at in your life, would you be willing to die for your country?

    1. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by WhatAmIDoingHere · · Score: 1

      A foolish man is willing to die for a cause, while a smart man is willing to live for one.

      --
      Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
    2. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by wviperw · · Score: 1

      Woot! My sig is on topic.

      --
      Nothing disturbs me more than blind loyalism towards some unrealistic and over-idealistic notion of one's nationality.
    3. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by TheMCP · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This question is a real waste of time. Both candidates will recognize instantly that they have no chance whatsoever of getting elected if they don't say yes.

    4. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you suggesting it might be good if the President died, or you want the President do die?
      You must be a terrorist! I won't feel sorry for you when Homeland Security shows up at your front door!

    5. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by buttahead · · Score: 1

      great question... only one good answer. now get them to prove it :)

    6. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by quantaman · · Score: 1

      I'm thinking they are looking for the most childish questions from this age group? I remember being 13 and I'm sure I could come up with more challenging stuff then this. All this does is lets the candidates go "In a second RAH! RAH! let's go team!" Kerry will bring his war record into it (don't think Bush will mention the war;) but other then that this question will be nothing but filler.

      If you want a chance at a real answer maybe,

      "Under what circumstances do you feel someone should choose to die for their country?"

      They'll still try to give the same answer in all likelyhood but maybe we'll at least see some good acrobatics.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    7. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by strangel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      this question sucks, it has no informational value whatsoever.

    8. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by piquadratCH · · Score: 1
      now get them to prove it

      Now THAT would be an election like in the old days! Let them fight each other to the death!

    9. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by killjoe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Both men were given this opportunity during the vietnam war. Both men came from privledeged families and had the resources to avoid going to war.

      Kerry went to war and Bush did not. While at war Kerry saw combat he killed people and he risked being killed.

      This question has already been answered by history.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    10. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, more zealotry.

    11. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by front · · Score: 1

      "would you be willing to die for your country?"

      Kerry has that one licked. Bush would have died for his country when the Viet Cong were about to take Dallas and probably only when his "betters" told him to hold the ranch while they split.

      That question would never work in this media age.

      So... Ask them if they would be willing to send their own children OVERSEAS to die for Iraqi Democracy and then hold them to it... in order to make sure that their children head out to South West Asia after the debates.

      After all.. they BOTH are quite happy to send other citizen's children over there...

      cheers

      front

    12. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      Only through Kerry colored glasses.

      As has been pointed out, Kerry joined the Navy because they were the least likely to actually have to go to battle. The warships stayed safely off the coast and lobbed artillery and missiles and planes at land based targets.

      George Bush flew jet planes - something inherently dangerous, and always with the possibility of being called to go to Vietnam, although it's plainly obvious that he probably wouldn't.

      Niether of them was particularly brave in their choice... they both selected branches of the military to minimize the risk of actually having to go fight hand to hand. Kerry just got the short end of the stick by getting a bad assignment. I don't mean to minimize what he did - he was called up and he served, but it wasn't exactly his plan.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    13. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      That would only be an interesting question if you were talking about 13 year olds being told by their parents they must serve in a foriegn country.

      Of course, the way it is now, we have AN ALL VOLUNTARY MILITARY consisting of ADULTS who made thei decisions on THEIR OWN.

      Not saying this about you, front, but to all those Michael Moore parrots asking about sending "your children" or asking other people to send their children, all I can say is you have insulted every person in the military who volunteered, who made that decision AS AN ADULT.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    14. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by killjoe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "As has been pointed out, Kerry joined the Navy because they were the least likely to actually have to go to battle"

      But he actually went to vietnam and actually killed people and actually got shot at and actually got wounded. If he wanted to avoid that he could have gotten deferments like Cheney did, faked an illness like Rush Limbaugh did (ingrown hairs), or gotten a national guard assignment like Bush did.

      "George Bush flew jet planes - something inherently dangerous,"

      Yes and so is driving. In fact driving is more risky then flying airplanes. IT's all moot anyway because he never showed up for his last physical and didn't complete his training.

      I am sorry that Kerry did not get wounded enough or saw enough combat to make you happy but clearly he was willing to die for his country and Bush and Cheney were not.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    15. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      No, what I'm asking is, for example, if Bush's national guard unit were called up for active duty, the question is would George have gone?

      You are implying he wouldn't have... I'm saying Kerry got the so-called "luck of the draw" when he was selected to go to Vietnam.

      It's like the draft itself... if someone was drafted and went to Vietnam, by your logic, they were brave. Also, by your logic, if someone was lucky enough not to have gotten drafted, then they were not. That's simply not something you can conclude based on those facts.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    16. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by l3pYr · · Score: 1
      Now THAT would be an election like in the old days! Let them fight each other to the death!
      Please cite one historical reference of an election where the candidates fought to the death. Exactly which old days are you talking about, 1963 maybe? Even though it's merely a different means to the same end, I still wouldn't consider Johnson's hit on Kennedy an electoral fight to the death..
      --
      RTFA and cite your sources or prepare to get pwnd
    17. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by PMuse · · Score: 1

      Today, where you're at in your life, would you be willing to die for your country?

      If not, are you willing to send your daughters and your sons to die? If so, why haven't you? If not, why have you sent anyone else's?

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
    18. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by PMuse · · Score: 1

      Today, where you're at in your life, would you be willing to die for your country?

      And, if so, please get on with it. You're late for duty.

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
    19. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by killjoe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      " No, what I'm asking is, for example, if Bush's national guard unit were called up for active duty, the question is would George have gone?"

      Probably not. He failed to show up for his physical and therefore was not qualified to fly. Coincedentally it was the first physical that was to test for drugs.

      GW went to the guard knowing full well that he would not be called up. It was unheard of at the time. He never expected to go to vietnam.

      Kerry joined the navy knowing full well he would go to vietnam. That's the difference. One know he was going to vietnam the other knew he wasn't.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    20. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      That's not true at all - people joined the Navy specifically trying to get out of combat duty. Only a tiny percentage of those in the Navy saw combat. When people thought getting drafted was inevitable, they joined the Navy.

      I'm not disparaging Kerry - when he was called upon for combat duty he did it, but he didn't sign up expecting or wanting to see combat. If he did, he wouldn't have joined the Navy... it's that simple.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    21. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL by killjoe · · Score: 1

      First of all unless you have all of a sudden aquired the capability to read minds you have no idea that he would not have joined the navy.

      Secondly combat or not he knew he was going to vietnam. When Bush joined the guard he knew he was not going to vietnam.

      Finally I have seen lots of footage of navy boats engaging in combat so I highly doubt people joined the navy to avoid combat.

      --
      evil is as evil does
  45. 13 - 17 #6 PERSONAL by Roblimo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What has influenced you to run for office? What do you hope to contribute that the other candidates are not able or willing to contribute to the government and the people?

    1. Re:13 - 17 #6 PERSONAL by strangel · · Score: 1

      Very good question. I look forward to seeing the answer!

    2. Re:13 - 17 #6 PERSONAL by PMuse · · Score: 1

      Softball. This question merely lobs up an opportunity for each candidate to repeat part of his stump speech. We've heard it all before.

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
  46. 13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The Bush administration has made a big deal of President Bush's Christian faith. Democratic candidate John Kerry is also a Christian. My question for both candidates is how does your faith affect your decision-making for the future of our country? Also, America is based on the separation of church and state. For the candidates, is it conflicting to take a position on issues based on Christianity (such as abortion and gay marriage) when not everyone in America believes in God or Christianity?

    1. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Also, how would your beliefs on this matter influence who you chose for cabinet-level appointees who may or may not have the same beliefs on religion and separation of church and state?

    2. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the candidates, is it conflicting to take a position on issues based on Christianity (such as abortion and gay marriage) when not everyone in America believes in God or Christianity?

      No, it isn't. Especially if the official stated that he would hold that position when running for office -- his constituents who voted him into office expect him to.

      No belief that an elected official has will be held by everyone in America. That doesn't mean elected officials aren't allowed to take sides on anything.

      If you don't like it, vote for somebody else. If your candidate doesn't win, tough; in a democracy, the majority rules.

    3. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Raffaello · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Obviously someone who hasn't read the Bill of Rights.

      Despite the fact that "the majority rules," minority rights are protected. Specifically, the federal government may pass no law that has the effect of establishing a particular religion. So, although elected officials may believe in, for example christianity, those officials may not pass laws that have the effect of using the power of the government to promulgate christianity.

      This is why, for example, school prayer is still illegal. A law mandating, or even allowing it, would have the effect of establishing a particular religion, (i.e., that of the majority in that school, which is usually some christian denomination).

      So, although congress-people, senators, and the president and VP are allowed to "take sides" on many things, they are expressly forbidden to take sides on the issue of "what is the correct religion" to the extent of passing a law. They may "take sides" on this issue in their private lives, but not as law makers.

    4. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by dspfreak · · Score: 3, Insightful
      OK, let's get this straight.

      You wouldn't like a Christian politician to make decisions based on his religion, because you think that violates sepration of church and state. However, making decisions that conflict with the moral standards he professes would make him a hypocrite. Nobody wants to elect a hypocrite. Therefore, we shouldn't elect any Christians, because they are either violating separation of church and state, or they are hypocrites.

      Many Americans are members of religions that have an associated ethical code. If politicians that are members of these religions are going to take positions on issues, what standard should they be using instead of the one they claim is fundamental to the way they live their lives?

      So say you get an agnostic or atheist politician. Presumably he has developed his own system of ethics during his life, and will use this to form his decisions. Do you feel more comfortable about the decisions this politician will make simply because you have no way of knowing what the ethical basis for his decisions will be? Is he less of a hypocrite than anyone else, or is he just impossible to pin down because his ethical code is not published?

      --
      "Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." -- G. K. Chesterton
    5. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by eformo · · Score: 1
      Kerry is Catholic, and not necessarily a Catholic in good standing. His stand on abortion has jeopardized his standing with the church, and may continue to make things uncomfortable in that relationship. I would not recommend equivocating liberal Catholicism with conservative Protestantism. (Or at least voters need to know that the two are not very similar at all.)

      A Catholic person's relationship to the Pope has previously been a major concern of voters in a Presidential election, and I'm surprised to see it glossed over so quickly this year. Perhaps this is because Kerry hasn't demonstrated much respect for the stance of his church to date.

      -ex

    6. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by balaam's+ass · · Score: 1

      Sombody mod this up. This is a point which many people fail to appreciate.

    7. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Jardine · · Score: 1

      This is why, for example, school prayer is still illegal. A law mandating, or even allowing it, would have the effect of establishing a particular religion, (i.e., that of the majority in that school, which is usually some christian denomination).

      Just a slight correction on this. Praying at school is not illegal. A student can pray all they want at recess, during lunch, and during other free times. They can also pray before, during, and after a test as long as it doesn't disrupt other students (meaning do so silently).

    8. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 2

      Besides, Senator Kerry has no problems vote on matters in a way that conflicts with his stated religion.

      The fact of the matter is that "morality" as we see it in a non-religious context in the U.S. is still largely derivative of the Judeo-Christian ethic. I always love to hear how people say "you can't legislate morality". I would argue that it's almost impossible not to legislate morality.

      I think it's simple. If a Christian politician wants to run for office, he can simply apply his beliefs and morals to the questions he would face in office and state where he would stand. It doesn't matter where he would get this stand from, be it the Bible, some secular philosopher or written on the bathroom wall. If we know how he stands on an issue, we can decide if we agree with that stand or not.

      Any politician worth voting for will have some set of core beliefs that will help dictate where he stands on most issues relevant to the office. As long as we can determine what that set of beliefs is, we can understand how he would govern, and whether those beliefs have a religious basis or not shouldn't matter.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    9. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The ethical code of the atheist must stand to reason. I can be convinced to his way of thinking or he to mine by logical arguments.

      The ethical code of the Christian is based on that Christian's interpretation of a self-contradicting book. Some Christians support gays while others consider them an abomination. Some Christians think the universe was created in 7 days while others have realized that it was not. Need I go on?

    10. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You wouldn't like a Christian politician to make decisions based on his religion, because you think that violates separation of church and state. However, making decisions that conflict with the moral standards he professes would make him a hypocrite. Nobody wants to elect a hypocrite. Therefore, we shouldn't elect any Christians, because they are either violating separation of church and state, or they are hypocrites


      Close, but not quite right. Bush can believe whatever he choses, and if he is sincere in his religious beliefs, then these beliefs should form the guiding principal for his life. He can use these to form the basis of his speeches to try sway public opinion. However, if public opinion is clearly against him / his beliefs, then he must do the job he was elected for and that is to carry out the will of the people. If he is uncomfortable serving a people who hold "heretical" viewpoints, then he should resign. He is not there to force his point of view or religion on those who object.
    11. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by aggieben · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Also, America is based on the separation of church and state. Not only is it apparent that the question's author hasn't read the Bill of Rights, but any credible history book either. America wasn't based on this idea at all. The idea itself was actually only a protection to keep the government from creating an "official" church like the Church of England, not a total separation of Church and State. Of course, there is much more to be said on this subject, but I think it's sufficient to say that the question was incredibly uninformed.

      --
      Don't become a regular here, you will become retarded. -- Yoda the Retard
    12. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Also, America is based on the separation of church and state.

      No, it's not. At least, not in the way that most people think it was.

      Go back and read the original documents discussing such matters. Start with the Mayflower Compact, and go up through the writings leading to the Consitution, and the writings of the first half-dozen or so U.S. Presidents.

      The separation of church and state that they referred to was meant to prevent the government from interfering with the church. It was NOT meant to keep the church from interfering with the government. Much of our U.S. Government is founded on principles from the Christian faith.

      In recent years, people have hollered, "separation of church and state!", and tried to keep the church out of politics, and often out of public view in general. (Such efforts once went so far as to cover up the Biblical commandment "Thou shalt not kill" in a courtroom during a murder try, lest those words sway the jury!) This was NOT the intent of the nation's founders.

      (On a side note, for all of you involved in the teaching of history: you might not believe in the Christian faith; that's your choice, and you're free to believe what you want. However, I urge you to NOT arbitrarily remove Christian faith from U.S. history, because regardless of what you personally believe, this faith did indeed play an important role in our country's foundation.)

    13. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by woztheproblem · · Score: 1

      Do all athiests agree on every moral (and other) issue?

    14. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Are we to have a censor whose imprimatur shall say what books may be sold, and what we may buy? And who is thus to dogmatize religious opinions for our citizens? Whose foot is to be the measure to which ours are all to be cut or stretched? Is a priest to be our inquisitor, or shall a layman, simple as ourselves, set up his reason as the rule of what we are to read, and what we must disbelieve? (Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to N. G. Dufief, Philadelphia bookseller, 1814, on the occasion of prosecution for selling De Becourt's "Sur le CrZation du Monde, un Systme d'Organisation Primitive"; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 371)

      found here.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    15. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by eluusive · · Score: 1

      Simply put, Christians have a set of morals for THEMSELVES. Nowhere in the bible does it say we must be a burden to our fellow man and force them under our beliefs. Rather, our call is to try to share the good news and hope they too become Christians. Thus, if Kerry voted against legilation making abortion illegal, he would not be violating his faith. Only if he told his wife to get an abortion would he be doing so.

      Some other posts attached to this question seem to state otherwise, claiming Kerry is a hypocrite because of some of his votes. Phft

    16. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, but when an atheist is asked why he feels a certain way, he will explain with reason, not with one or the other contradictory statement to be taken on faith.

      For example, some atheists might support the death penalty because they believe it to be a deterrent. If you could show them that it is not more a deterrent than life imprisonment, you could convince them to take an opposite view. A Christian might say "an eye for an eye" and be unswayable (or conversely say that we must offer the other cheek), no matter the detriment his stance might be to society. To him, his interpretation is final.

    17. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by N3WBI3 · · Score: 1
      He can use these to form the basis of his speeches to try sway public opinion. However, if public opinion is clearly against him / his beliefs, then he must do the job he was elected for and that is to carry out the will of the people. If he is uncomfortable serving a people who hold "heretical" viewpoints, then he should resign.

      Or he could just state his position and we can have an election on it..

      --
    18. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ahh, but if a Christian President firmly believes the Bible, then such a President would believe that what God considers sin (including abortion and homosexuality) would lead to overall degradation in the country. Therefore, from the President's perspective, it would be in the best interest of the country to follow Biblical principles.

    19. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Letter written by Thomas Jefferson, and the source of the phraseology "separation of church and state":

      --

      Messrs. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, and Stephen s. Nelson
      A Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association, in the State of Connecticut.

      Washington, January 1, 1802

      Gentlemen,--The affectionate sentiment of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

      Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature would "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

      I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.

      * A cite for this letter could read:
      Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert E. Bergh, ed. (Washington, D. C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association of the United States, 1904), Vol. XVI, pp. 281-282.

    20. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      A politician has no business making decisions based on his morality. His job is to do what his constituents want, within the law, and to work to change the law to fit the will of his constituents. This is both what he should do, and what he must do to keep his job (in an ideal situation) as it should be. The will of the people is what should be done.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    21. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by upsidedown_duck · · Score: 1

      Perhaps this is because Kerry hasn't demonstrated much respect for the stance of his church to date.

      Perhaps Kerry understands there are limits to what the federal government can or should do. I never thought I'd say that about a Democratic canidate.

      --
      -- "Makes Little Debbie look like a pile of puke!" - Moe Szyslak
    22. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 1

      A politician has no business making decisions based on his morality. His job is to do what his constituents want, within the law, and to work to change the law to fit the will of his constituents.

      Those two statements don't fit together. Bush's constituents want him to make decisions based on his morality.

      One of the safeguards of a Constitutional Republic is that it lays out strict grounds rules as to what constitutes legitimate legislation and what does not. When you have a populace that doesn't understand how their government works, this system is a bit more safeguarded against whims being thrusted into legislation (in theory).

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    23. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The ethical code of the Christian is based on that Christian's interpretation of a self-contradicting book. Some Christians support gays while others consider them an abomination.

      The Book is very clear on this (and I'm talking both Old and New Testaments)

      Some Christians think the universe was created in 7 days while others have realized that it was not. Need I go on?

      If you study the Genesis 1 in it's original language, you get some remarkable insight as to how silly the idea that the Bible claims that the Earth is 5,000 years old is.

      Your understanding of Christianity is far too limited to be making the baseless criticisms such as those in your post.

      Need I go on?

      Please do. You appear to be investing less thought in what you're cutting down than anyone else here.

    24. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      A Christian might say "an eye for an eye" and be unswayable (or conversely say that we must offer the other cheek), no matter the detriment his stance might be to society. To him, his interpretation is final.

      A Christian might also say "a man has no greater love than this, that he should lay down his life for another." Interpretation is not final here.

      You don't know what you're talking about. You're starting apprehension towards applying logic to religion indicates an irrational position. I suppose it is en vogue for Christianity to play whipping boy for budding young intellectuals waiting for a topic that allows them to set themselves above the 'peon' masses.

      Methinks the lady doth protest too much...

    25. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All religions play whipping boy to intellectuals. If you based your beliefs on the stories of Hercules or the tooth fairy, I would show equal disdain.

      My claim is that to each Christian, his own interpretation is the last word (the opposite of your straw man -- I do not claim that there is a single interpretation). That's why creationists are not an anachronism. The Christian will argue not that his position helps society in one way or another but that his side is correct by faith.

    26. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've unwittingly proven my point. Your interpretation is that the universe was not created in 7 days and that gays are an abomination.

      Now to actually provide an argument against my claim, you would have to show that no Christians interpret the Bible any other way. Unfortunately, you can't. Counterexamples: http://creationism.org/ and http://www.religionnews.com/press02/PR050103.html

    27. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Izago909 · · Score: 1

      Your argument is based on the assumptions that, a person can not separate theological beliefs from social concepts, and that honest moral standing and religion are mutually exclusive. There are four types of coercion: economic, social, civil, and criminal; address these four points and do the best to see that everyone is treated equally. Everyone who does not harm or interfere with others against their will is abiding by the law and treated as equals. Under the conditions of the previous two sentences, all religions should be able to coexist peacefully and share in governing provided no religious limitations are decided globally (i.e. at the federal level). That concept is largely a utopian fantasy. By their nature, nearly all religions require active intervention at their core belief. Religions are the political institutions of our spiritual beliefs; and like all of mans institutions, they exist to perpetuate themselves. Recruiting new followers is either strongly encouraged, or even required by most. This process often creates a dogma of active intervention as the number of people increase that hold similar views. Naturally, as time goes on, a percentage of our politicians reflect the proportion of the population that doesn't care if federal law limits things that their religious beliefs disagree with; regardless if the conditions in the fist two sentences of the second paragraph exist.

    28. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously someone who hasn't read the Bill of Rights.

      I'm very familiar with the Bill of Rights, thanks. (I could take a swipe at you, but I won't.)

      Despite the fact that "the majority rules," minority rights are protected. Specifically, the federal government may pass no law that has the effect of establishing a particular religion. So, although elected officials may believe in, for example christianity, those officials may not pass laws that have the effect of using the power of the government to promulgate christianity.

      But that's not what the original question asked. The question did not say "take a position on religion", it said "take a position on issues based on Christianity".

      I see nothing in the Bill of Rights about basing your policy decisions on religion, so long as the decision itself isn't about religion establishment.

      I also can't think of any issues, offhand, that have "the effect of establishing a particular religion". You can say the Pope tells you that abortion is wrong, but he's not the only one who believes that (or the only reason you might believe that), and making abortion illegal doesn't make the United States a Catholic country. Similarly for just about any other loaded issue I can think of, short of hanging a crucifix in the classroom -- but that's religion itself, not an issue you made a decision about based on religion.

      If you have a good example, provide it, so I can consider it. But please stop insulting me. Election year is when the politicians sling mud, but that doesn't mean the citizens have to.

    29. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by reverius · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it's funny how that's been happening as of late.

      Ten years ago, Senator John Kerry was supporting export restrictions on encryption in Congress, while Senator John Ashcroft (Bush's Attorney General) was against such restrictions.

      Zoom ahead, and John Kerry is against the USAPATRIOT act, a bill championed by John Ashcroft, severely limiting personal freedoms in the United States and expanding the powers of the federal government.

      Kerry might or might not be a "good" Catholic. That's irrelevant. He understands that it is not the place of the federal government to put forth legislation based on any religious position, be it one he agrees with or not.

      He is -personally- against abortion, but understands that it should not be within the power of the federal government to prevent others (who do not share his religious views) to do what they will. Why can't more politicians take this stance (among those who -are- personally against abortion)?

    30. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Analogy+Man · · Score: 1
      How about the sins of hubris and greed that the current administration seems to celebrate?

      References to these sins are more numerous in the gospel than sexual immorality. As a Christian I am disgusted with the fascination with the sin of others (homosexuality / abortion etc) while deception (Enron), greed (Halliburton), professions of infallibility (President)...are somehow virtues to these "Christians".

      --
      When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
    31. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      AC: The separation of church and state that they referred to was meant to prevent the government from interfering with the church. It was NOT meant to keep the church from interfering with the government.

      But those are the SAME THING. If a church interferes in the government, then it causes the government to interfere with other churches!

      The whole POINT of the Mayflower colonists you mentioned was to escape the influence the Church of England had on the British government!

      AC: "Thou shalt not kill" in a courtroom during a murder try, lest those words sway the jury!

      False, but anyway- which way do you think it would sway them? It might make them decide AGAINST issuing the death penalty, because then THEY'd be sinning.

    32. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by dspfreak · · Score: 1
      Hmmm. I'm more of the mind that the courage and integrity to do what's right, even when it's unpopular (and might cost you your job), is a high virtue, and one that is particularly rare among politicians.

      --
      "Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." -- G. K. Chesterton
    33. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't have to be Christian to believe that killing a human being is wrong, and you don't have to be Christian to read a basic medical or embryological textbook to see that, yes, a preborn child is a human being.

    34. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      I strongly oppose the notion that anti-abortion positions are necessarily based on religious grounds.

      I'm agnostic, personally, but that still does NOT mean that life doesn't begin at conception, and it doesn't mean that I don't value innocent human life.

      If he's personally against abortion, you need to ask why. Is it because the bible says abortion is wrong? The Church? Or has he looked in depth at the issue and decided that a fetus is life?

      Just because a position is the same as the churches does NOT mean that the position necessarily has religious roots.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    35. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is retarded. The supposition is that a person whose moral code is published should be considered more trustworthy? You gotta love someone who has so little personal strength they just accept an ethos verbatim. Please tell me that most people of the book, whichever book that is, use their own personal will to make determinations of what they believe to be moral or ethical, 'cause if you've read through some of those books entirely you might find a few views that don't quite compute with your own (I hope). If Bush were to tell me that his personal morality is that as expounded in the Bible (well first he better say which version 'cause that could change a whole lot too) entirely and completely with no alterations just so we could look it all up then even the most devout orthodox christian wouldn't want to vote for him anymore.

    36. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by cswan · · Score: 1

      Hypocrit or not, I'd prefer to see politicians making decisions based on their own intelligence and what is GOOD FOR THE PEOPLE. I know this concept seems to have been abandoned in America, but I would like to start electing LEADERS instead of...well, hell, I don't even know an appropriate adjective to describe the current candidates. Egoists?

      When John Kennedy was running there was much concern that being such so strongly Catholic it would dicate everything that he did as president. Not so, said Kennedy:

      "It is my firm belief that there should be separation of church and state as we understand it in the United States -- that is, that both church and state should be free to operate, without interference from each other in their respective areas of jurisdiction. We live in a liberal, democratic society which embraces wide varieties of belief and disbelief. There is no doubt in my mind that the pluralism which has developed under our Constitution, providing as it does a framework within which diverse opinions can exist side by side and by their interaction enrich the whole, is the most ideal system yet devised by man. I cannot conceive of a set of circumstances which would lead me to a different conclusion." -- letter to Glenn L. Archer, 23 February 1959"


      I like the root question of this thread, but I'd take it a bit further: "How much will you, as president, use your powers of reasoning and leadership to move the American people forward as a country, even when it means advocating courses of action that run contrary to your personal code of morality, opinions, or religion?"

      Let's quit marginalizing America and start acting like the 'United States' again. Let's elect leaders; not denominations.

    37. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, no. You're arguing against a corollary which was never asserted.

    38. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by GOD_ALMIGHTY · · Score: 1

      Any credible history book, like The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution by Bernard Bailyn, who won two Pulitzer Prizes for History, would tell you that the separation of church and state is absolute. The US Government has no opinion of religion and must maintain that position in it's laws.

      This idea that it is not absolute is the product of demagogues and theocrats who have profited politically by misleading the public on their own history.

      --
      Arrogance is Confidence which lacks integrity. -- me
    39. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by upsidedown_duck · · Score: 1

      Just because a position is the same as the churches does NOT mean that the position necessarily has religious roots.

      Generally, most arguments that are not based on religious faith take a "shades of grey" approach to abortion. There are spontaneous abortions all the time, for example. Also, there is arguing about birthing a child into a family that doesn't want him or her or wouldn't take proper care of him or her. Adoption is a nice idea, but supply outweighs demand. It is obvious that an embryo is alive, at least in the sense that a carrot is alive (cellular respiration, etc.), and the unanswerable question, without religion, is whether discarding a simple multi-celled embryo is no worse than or worse than discarding a simple multi-celled carrot. It is more difficult to decide and usually the argument drops to emotional statements about "potential." Even that is vague. Abortion will be another one of those issues where no one clearly wins the debate.

      --
      -- "Makes Little Debbie look like a pile of puke!" - Moe Szyslak
    40. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Eravau · · Score: 1

      "How much will you, as president, use your powers of reasoning and leadership to move the American people forward as a country, even when it means advocating courses of action that run contrary to your personal code of morality, opinions, or religion?"

      If something was truly against your morality and beliefs, then you would therefore not think of it as a movement forward. If you believe something is wrong, then it's not a step forward. The two ideas cannot be meshed.

      You're asking "If you think doing such-and-such will take us backwards as a country, will you pretend like it's going forwards just because somebody else says it is?" ...or "If somebody says down is up...will you go that way even though you know it's wrong?"

    41. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, let's asuume for the sake of argument that it's possible for "the right thing to do" to be different than "what's good for the people". Then any course of action could be put into one of four broad categories:

      1. Right thing to do, good for the people.

      2. Right thing to do, bad for the people.

      3. Wrong thing to do, good for the people.

      4. Wrong thing to do, bad for the people.

      Case 1 is a no brainer. Hopefully all your decisions are this easy. Case 4 would only be done in the case of corruption (power grabs, private interests, etc), otherwise nobody in their right mind would choose a course of action in this category.

      This leaves cases 2 and 3, which are a moral dilemma. What you seem to be saying is that every case, given the choice between these two courses of action, you should choose the one that is for the good of the people but is not the right thing to do. So it seems the conclusion is that all politicians should be immoral, because any time it would be beneficial to do something immoral, they should do it. Could you really trust such a person?

      Of course, real issues are more complex than this, and it is quite possible that somebody is mistaken about what is either the right thing to do or what is good for the country.

      In general, however, I think what is good for the country is the same as the right thing to do. If there is an apparent conflict, you either need to analyze your system of ethics, or figure out what factors you aren't taking into account when you are deciding what is good for the country.

      As an example, take the environment. Most people would agree that protecting the environment is the right thing to do. Somebody might argue that environmental restrictions hamper industry, which is bad for the economy and therefore bad for the people. If somebody held these two beliefs, which course of action should he choose? If he were to look more closely, he would realize that protecting the environment is best for the people in the long run, because if we don't treat our planet right it isn't going to be a very nice place to live.

    42. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by cswan · · Score: 1

      If something was truly against your morality and beliefs, then you would therefore not think of it as a movement forward. If you believe something is wrong, then it's not a step forward. The two ideas cannot be meshed.

      So a pacifist president could never take our country to war?

      A wartime president, who might not have personally believed in racial equality, could not decree that slaves should be free?

    43. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by cswan · · Score: 1

      OK, let's asuume for the sake of argument that it's possible for "the right thing to do" to be different than "what's good for the people"

      That's not what I was arguing, actually...I was saying that one's personal opinions on matters should not be what defines public policy. Imposing your personal will on others is not a hallmark of democratic leadership.

      But you seemed to get back on that track later on in your post...

      As an example, take the environment. Most people would agree that protecting the environment is the right thing to do.[snip]

      A good example. If you were a Green president, you might believe that we should preserve all that is preservable, even if conditions seem to indicate that economy will suffer with too much governmentally-imposed conservation. Yes, this might change your opinion on the matter of conservation, or it might not. In 'normal' matters like this, yes, your opinion is likely to change when faced with real-world evidence that your views are flawed. But many facets of people's worldview aren't based on logic or subject to modification (think religion); in those cases one must endeavour to go the course that is for the betterment of the country, but perhaps runs contrary to your own, or even the majority's, personal/religious opinion on the matter.

    44. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      You obviously don't understand what "democratic republic" means.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    45. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      If this were a pure democracy, you argument might be valid, but it is a democratic republic. We are electing representatives to make decisions for us, not to simply translate poll results into policy. Otherwise, why bother having a president?

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    46. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by PMuse · · Score: 1

      Redundant. Questions 13 - 17 #7 and 13 - 17 #4 will be given the exact same boilderplate answer and it won't acutally answer either question. Both candidates will profess to be Christians, but will claim to be capable of governing fairly people of other faiths. Skip this question.

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
    47. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      To do what's right? Bush thinks it's right to punish a class of people for their sexual orientation. The right in general thinks that it's right to prevent people from getting abortions. The majority seems to agree with the first one but not the second, but that's not going to change bush's mind. The majority should rule, not one person.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    48. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, the majority also agrees that abortion should be illegal except in the case of rape, incest, or significant health problems with the mother or child. In other words, if you want an abortion simply because you accidentally got knocked up, the majority believes it should be illegal.

      Still think the majority should rule?

    49. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by aggieben · · Score: 1

      ...the separation of church and state is absolute.

      The Constitution, the Federalist Papers, and a number of other important documents seem to disagree with that assertion.

      The US Government has no opinion of religion and must maintain that position in it's laws.

      The Constitution says "Congress shall make no law...".

      This idea that it is not absolute is the product of demagogues and theocrats who have profited politically by misleading the public on their own history.

      This kind of statement is just an intellectual crutch, akin to "Anyone who doesn't agree with me must be stupid or evil."; it's a lazy way to rationalize your own unwillingness to consider that a reasonable person could disagree.

      --
      Don't become a regular here, you will become retarded. -- Yoda the Retard
    50. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by GOD_ALMIGHTY · · Score: 1

      The Federalists conceeded the absolutism of separation to the Anti-Federalists during the debate over the Bill of Rights.
      While that isn't contained in the Federalist Papers themselves, it is contained in the Anti-Federalist Papers and the Federalists discussions following the publication of the Federalist Papers. The Federalists felt conceeding this point was a reasonable compromise for something they thought was unneccesary. If you have other records that refute this, please provide them.

      I'm not saying a reasonable person can't disagree, it's that the position isn't supported once you scratch the surface. I can defend this point with the historical record, I've yet to find someone who held the opposite position who can do the same. The number one defense is the text of the Constitution, the second is the Federalist Papers, after that it seems to crumble. The second I bring up more references beyond this people usually just quit trying.

      As far as accusing me of using a crutch, I wasn't basing my rational, just characterizing the non-absolutist position. The historical record doesn't support the non-absolutist position, and that has been consistently reinforced by peer reviewed academia and the courts. It seems that once ignorance is not a factor there must be an ulterior motive for asserting this position. There are numerous accounts in the historical record where demagogues and theocrats have used this position in light of evidence to the contrary as part of a path to power.

      --
      Arrogance is Confidence which lacks integrity. -- me
    51. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      You've unwittingly proven my point. Your interpretation is that the universe was not created in 7 days and that gays are an abomination.

      Implying that interpretation causes discrepancies in the truths found in the Bible is flawed. There is actually no way to misinterpret the Bible when read in its original languages.

      Now to actually provide an argument against my claim, you would have to show that no Christians interpret the Bible any other way.

      The latter is a link to some supposed 'research' some people have done. The Gospels do not even imply that Jesus was gay. They rely on the Gospel of John and certain passages that refer to "the Apostle, whom Jesus loved." Unfortunately, in the original language, there are many words for love, and the word for romantic love does not come into these passages.

      I'm not claiming that Christians don't differ on their views. I'm claiming that their differences come from how closely or how loosely they stick to the Bible.

    52. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by aggieben · · Score: 1

      Just so you know, I am ecstatic to be having this kind of debate and will continue on indefinitely, if the slashdot code allows it (I wonder what the limit on depth of replies is).

      The Federalists conceeded the absolutism of separation to the Anti-Federalists during the debate over the Bill of Rights. ...it is contained in the Anti-Federalist Papers and the Federalists discussions following the publication of the Federalist Papers.

      I was unable to find an absolutist position in the anti-federalist papers or in some of the important speeches given at that time. I would be more than happy to read someone's support of that position if I could find it; maybe you could help me out in that regard.

      I can defend this point with the historical record, I've yet to find someone who held the opposite position who can do the same.

      I don't know if I can defend my position to your satisfaction or not; however, you might look into reading some of David Barton's writings (here's an example:
      http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/det ai l.php?ResourceID=9
      ) which can either be read or referenced at wallbuildiners.com. David is a constitutional historian by education and profession of whom I think very highly.

      As far as accusing me of using a crutch, I wasn't basing my rational, just characterizing the non-absolutist position.

      The entire point of my 'crutch' comment was to point out that this is an unfair mischaracterization.

      The historical record doesn't support the non-absolutist position, and that has been consistently reinforced by peer reviewed academia and the courts.

      The "historical record" does lend support to the "non-absolutist" position, which I'm sure we will eventually get to. Perhaps we would be better of debating what "absolutist" and "non-absolutist" means first. I should also say that "peer reviewed academia" only serves to hurt your position in my eyes; I have less than little regard for it. The courts are generally better, but not always (anyone who knows a number of court decisions can probably think of one they believe is unconstitutional or illegal. The 9th circuit comes to mind...).

      It seems that once ignorance is not a factor there must be an ulterior motive for asserting this position.

      I thought we were past this type of mischaracterization already ("if you disagree you're either stupid or evil").

      I'll be watching for you to point out the "absolutist" position somewhere in the "historical record".

      --
      Don't become a regular here, you will become retarded. -- Yoda the Retard
    53. Re:13 - 17 #7 TOLERANCE/DISCRIMINATION by GOD_ALMIGHTY · · Score: 1

      The absoluteness isn't set out in a gotcha phrase, it's alluded to and rationalized in the arguments on the subject. I can't recommend enough Bernard Bailyn's "The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution, which won the Pulitzer and Bancroft Prizes in 1968. It describes the mindset of the time. For a more modern view of the logical extension of this idea of liberalism see Karl Popper's The Open Society and Its Enemies.

      Barton focuses on one side of the record while ignoring or unaware of another aspect. It seems that Barton has forgotten a major contention. Someone is always going to take legitimate concern with tax dollars to support some religious belief they don't have. The Baptists and other Dissenters were considered nitpickers like, say, atheists are today. This was a hard won fight to get where we are today because of the greater separation of State and Federal powers. The Constitution took a long time before tax dollars going to religious causes were stopped. If the Founding Fathers sought to protect was commonly considered a minor annoyance, then if someone else can prove the same case, precedent holds that we must enforce this interpretation of the law.

      The courts have upheld this position throughout the history of our nation. They were upheld because the First Amendment was sufficient for the courts and that's why you don't see clearer language in law. It was only until the Red Scare that these issues started to come up again. There was a national drive, as part of the Red Scare to put references to God funded by tax dollars. Since it's not a popular issue for elected legislatures, we are a culturally religious counatry, the courts have had to wait for challenges to the law.

      If the 9th Circuit passes a decision that you think oversteps the bounds, you are welcome to bring a court case. If the Supreme Court abandons this principle of absolute separation, and I don't see how if they respect the rule of law, then things will change, but I believe that will be a dark day for this country.

      --
      Arrogance is Confidence which lacks integrity. -- me
  47. 13 - 17 #8 ENVIRONMENT by Roblimo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I am concerned about our growing population in the U.S. and all over the world. The traffic, overbuilding and suburban sprawl is not slowing, and I worry, that by the time I am an adult and have a family, that my quality of life is really going to suffer. I would like to hear the presidential candidates address their views on over population, how to control it, its effect on the environment, energy consumption, land use, etc., and on how to stop the overcrowding of both America and the world.

    1. Re:13 - 17 #8 ENVIRONMENT by mveloso · · Score: 1

      While the feds have some control over this, the issue really is more of a local issue. Localities like Portland have restricted and channeled growth, while others like Houston don't really have anything close to zoning (from what I understand).

      Kind of pointless to ask, except from a natural resources/wilderness point of view. But even those things (arctic drilling, timber harvesting, etc) won't affect your local quality-of-life.

      Mod down (don't have mod points today).

    2. Re:13 - 17 #8 ENVIRONMENT by Jerf · · Score: 1

      Overpopulation is largely a bugaboo. Birth rates are dropping in the industrialized world and the sprawl is growing due to immigration and a real estate bubble which makes development far more lucrative than it should be, the latter of which will be popping anytime soon. This is a great 1970s question; this question is less relevant in the 2000s, where the growth rate is slowing and population projections for 20 years down the road seem to drop every year.

      Also, Go West, My Son, and talk to me about overpopulation. Be sure to keep the gas tank more than half full, you never know where the next gas station is.

    3. Re:13 - 17 #8 ENVIRONMENT by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Overpopulation is largely a bugaboo.

      No, it's very important, even though the problems listed ("traffic, overbuilding, and suburban sprawl") are NOT what we should be worried about.

      this question is less relevant in the 2000s, where the growth rate is slowing

      1) The statistic that has gone down is per capita growth rate. Total growth rate continues to increase, because there are more people overall.
      2) Drops in per-capita growth are most attributed to catastrophic African epidemics. No one should be happy "Oh, we don't need to provide for those people, we'll just let them die"

      Be sure to keep the gas tank more than half full, you never know where the next gas station is.

      And indeed, there is the single largest problem facing the world today: running out of "gas". Assuming no one in China or India wants to drive an SUV, we will run out of petroleum fuel in 110 years.

      (High population) * (high per-capita oil burning) = (end of life as we know it)

    4. Re:13 - 17 #8 ENVIRONMENT by buttahead · · Score: 1

      god i hope the answer isn't sending more of us into war.

    5. Re:13 - 17 #8 ENVIRONMENT by TheMCP · · Score: 1

      This is a good topic but the question is too broad: the candidates could talk about practically anything and be on topic. Also, they really can't do too much to control overpopulation in the rest of the world. So, I'd suggest asking something more like "What would you do about overpopulation and urban sprawl in the United States?"

    6. Re:13 - 17 #8 ENVIRONMENT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Also, they really can't do too much to control overpopulation in the rest of the world

      Sure, they can! Bush is doing a great job controlling overpopulation in Iraq.

    7. Re:13 - 17 #8 ENVIRONMENT by omega_cubed · · Score: 1

      While this might be a nice question to muse about, I highly doubt much can be done in the term of one president. Furthermore, there really isn't an answer to this question ... what? you propose passing out condoms to every single person in Africa?

      Unless the entire world implements China's One-Child policy, the lack of sex ed in third world countries (and some parts of the "civilized world" too), and the general "enjoyment" at hand will most likely dictate the human population to continue to increase.

      Most likely this question will just elicit some sort of general response about education and (in cases of candidates not morally against it) birth control.

      W

      --
      Engineers also speak PDE, only in a different dialect.
    8. Re:13 - 17 #8 ENVIRONMENT by N3WBI3 · · Score: 1
      2) Drops in per-capita growth are most attributed to catastrophic African epidemics. No one should be happy "Oh, we don't need to provide for those people, we'll just let them die"

      Huh? have you even looked at birth rates in the world?

      The only nations with significantly growing ragtes are in Africa, the Middle East, and South East Asia. In the US there are less than 25 Births per year per one thousand addults. All of Europe (Save Ireland and Norway) are below 14!

      --
    9. Re:13 - 17 #8 ENVIRONMENT by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Look. The birth rate and the per-capita birth rate are different things! The former is the product of the latter and the total population. The fact that per-capita birth rate is decreasing (in some places) doesn't mean the earth's population isn't increasing enormously.

      It's unavoidable that the global birth rate is slowing down- why, if 1981's rate continued until 2041, there'd be a 70 billion population!

      Even if this currently-reduce birth rate continues, we'll still hit the 10 billion before 2050.

      the US there are less than 25 Births per year per one thousand addults

      That's a funny thing to say. It's true, but misleading, because it suggests the number is nearly 25, when really it's less than 15

    10. Re:13 - 17 #8 ENVIRONMENT by N3WBI3 · · Score: 1
      The birth rate and the per-capita birth rate are different things! The former is the product of the latter and the total population. The fact that per-capita birth rate is decreasing (in some places) doesn't mean the earth's population isn't increasing enormously.

      But you said the slow down in population is due to epidemec in African and the third world, not due to slowing growth in the first world..

      --
    11. Re:13 - 17 #8 ENVIRONMENT by Kohath · · Score: 1

      This is poorly worded, but it could be a good question:

      To what extent do you believe overpopulation is -- or will be -- a problem in the US and worldwide? What are your plans to address overpopulation and the environmental consequenses?

      I think it's a good question mostly because I'd like to hear the answers from the candidates.

    12. Re:13 - 17 #8 ENVIRONMENT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the point is that this reduced rate won't continue -- it will go down even further. UN projections for world population in 2050 range from 7.4 billion (using the lowest-fertility assumptions) to 10.6 billion (using the highest-fertility assumptions). "Rich" countries are already well below replacement levels of fertility, as is China. Given the impact that economic development usually has on fertility, we can expect to see India begin to undergo decline at some point soon as well. It's primarily Africa where lack of economic development is likely to keep fertility moderately high in coming decades. And while I don't recall the exact details, I believe the estimates are that bringing African fertility to replacement level in the near future would result in the world's reaching its peak population in around 2040 and declining thereafter.

    13. Re:13 - 17 #8 ENVIRONMENT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, so you're saying that only certain people should be allowed to procreate?

    14. Re:13 - 17 #8 ENVIRONMENT by PMuse · · Score: 1

      There is no overcrowding in the US -- at least not on any scale that's worth talking about in global terms. It's fine to ask about fresh water supplies and other resources, but the U.S. is actually in need of a much larger population if it wants to avoid having its culture swarmed under by the rest of the world in the long term.

      As to what US policy should be on other countries' populations, that's pretty nosey of us, isn't it?

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
  48. 13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by Roblimo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why, as an American citizen, will I have to compete for jobs and college financial assistance with people who are here illegally from other countries? My immigrant parents followed the rules and waited their turn.

    1. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless you're a mental midget, this shouldn't be a problem.

    2. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by vandan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Interesting? Oh Lordy Lord!

      Increasing the number of people creates more jobs that it takes. If this weren't the case, then villages with a population of 5 would have full employment, and cities with a population of 10 million would have 99.999% unemployment.

      Add to that the increase in cultural diversity that immigrants bring ( I believe something the Yanks are sorely missing, by the way ), and you have some very strong arguments for increasing the number of immigrants.

      Please don't let this nationalist trash get regurgitated again.

    3. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by Therlin · · Score: 1

      International students are not eligible for financial aid (at least at the University where I work, but I assume it's the same all over the country.)

    4. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damn! and all this time we've had those pesky borders.

    5. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by Raffaello · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Add to that the increase in cultural diversity that immigrants bring ( I believe something the Yanks are sorely missing, by the way )

      By your use of the word "Yanks" I must assume that you are from the UK or some other Commonwealth or former Commonwealth nation. I think that you'll find that the non-Anglo population of the United States is far, far larger than that of the UK, or any other Commonwealth nation with the obvious exceptions of those former colonies whose populations have always been majority non-Anglo. Realize, for example, that most projections show that by 2050 the majority of the US population will be non-white.

      Anyone who could fault the US for lack of cultural diversity that comes from immigrant populations is woefully lacking in any significant knowlege of US history (hint: everyone here except the Native Americans is a descendent of immigrants), and current ethnic diversity (have you ever been to New York, Boston, Philadelphia, D.C., Chicago, Atlanta, Miami, Kansas City, Detroit, San Francisco or Los Angeles? hint: all of these cities have huge non-white populations, most representing numerous ethnicities).

      My travel in the UK makes it clear to me that the UK, for example, has far less ethnic and cultural diversity than most of these cities above, even in a major urban center like London.

    6. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. i highly doubt you are having a hard time grabbing the much-coveted minimum wage jobs that illegal immigrants have. face it, they aren't stealing those jobs from americans, because americans do not want them.

      2. if the government guaranteed that illegal aliens had to be paid the same for a particular job as any citizen, corporations would have no incentive to hire them over you (except that they are almost certainly willing to work harder) i thank maddox for the basis of point 2.

    7. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by Kohath · · Score: 1

      This would be a good question if it weren't personalized. As it is, the answer is "because life isn't fair".

      Ask the candidates about their policies on imigration. Not about why it doesn't all magically work out for you.

    8. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by quantaman · · Score: 1

      Interesting? Oh Lordy Lord!

      Increasing the number of people creates more jobs that it takes. If this weren't the case, then villages with a population of 5 would have full employment, and cities with a population of 10 million would have 99.999% unemployment.

      Add to that the increase in cultural diversity that immigrants bring ( I believe something the Yanks are sorely missing, by the way ), and you have some very strong arguments for increasing the number of immigrants.

      Please don't let this nationalist trash get regurgitated again.


      I agree with you, now I have to say I'm pretty damn interested if the candidates do as well. The slant of the question can be excused by it being from a low age group but I'm certainly interested to hear what the candidates say about this, I wouldn't be surprized if they start sprouting that same nationalist trash back in the answer and that answer I feel is very relevant, I say the question should stay.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    9. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by omega_cubed · · Score: 1

      I believe the grandparent used the word illegally. The question is not about limiting immigration, but about controlling illegal immigration.

      Perhaps you don't remember, but there were even instances when in California certain individuals recommended granting voting rights to people without citizenship. For new immigrants like me, the question is not about economy or nationalist feelings, but about justice. The point is that the illegal immigrants are ripping off the citizens/PRs when they receive financial aids and such without contributing to the pool in the first place.

      (As a side note, why would you use the words "nationalist trash" on the comment made apparently be a second gen. immigrant? and why would a second generation immigrant propose limiting immigration at all?)

      W

      --
      Engineers also speak PDE, only in a different dialect.
    10. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you are only asking about people who are here illegally, then you might as well ask why you should have to worry about thieves, robbers and scammers.

    11. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AFAIK, illegal immigrants (which the question was about) aren't eligible to be students at all, much less eligible for financial aid.

    12. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by mod_parent_down · · Score: 1
      Add to that the increase in cultural diversity that immigrants bring

      "Diversity" -- ... I do not think it means what you think it means. Go to some of the most 'diverse' places in the U.S. -- Decatur (Atlanta), GA. Los Angeles, CA. How bout the "integration" bussing program in St Louis, MO. How can you can chide the question about the abundance of immigrants while also criticizing the lack of diversity???

      Please, I don't disagree with your point, but don't argue that separate cultures living in isolation, both in language and in race, is DIVERSITY.

      And now, I do believe the meat of your point is valid. However, while increasing the # of jobs, it also increases the steepness of gradient between classes. Take Orange County, CA for example: If there weren't cheap labor to finance the bourgeois labor, the wealthy commerce couldn't exist. It's no accident that the OC is also the fast food capitol of California.

    13. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by sholden · · Score: 1

      most projections show that by 2050 the majority of the US population will be non-white.

      Here are some US Population Projections.

      In 2050 they (U.S. Census Bureau) project that 72.1% of the population will be "white". If you don't count "hispanic" as "white" then they predict 50.1% "white, not hispanic". Under either definition the majority is white.

    14. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by 808140 · · Score: 1

      Well, no one in their right mind thinks of Hispanic as white (the only reason this is the case on the census is due to historic -- read 19th century -- reasoning which subdivided humans into 3 broad categories, being caucasoid, mongoloid, and negroid).

      50.1% is extremely close to half; it looks as though someone was looking for the breaking point, and 2050 is a nice round number. That would imply that by 2060 (for example) whites will probably be a minority (and there will be no majority, as I believe is already the case in California).

      So the OP really was pretty close. Come on, give him credit. There's no way that the real number would have been something round like 2050, anyway.

    15. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by I_redwolf · · Score: 1

      How is this insightful? An illegal immigrant is illegal.

      Illegal: Not according to, or authorized by, law; specif., contrary to, or in violation of, human law; unlawful; illicit; hence, immoral; as, an illegal act; illegal trade; illegal love.

      An illegal immigrant is illegal. They are entitled to none of the benefits this country offers it's citizens. If you are illegal and can receive the benefits then why become a citizen? Why pay the taxes? Why contribute?

      There is nothing wrong with legal immigrants, they contribute and go through the process which allows them to legally contribute to this country.

      The argument that illegal citizens contribute is FALSE. If corporations can hire them and pay them less than minimum wage, they can't contribute in taxes or social security and they use infrastructure and resources like regular citizens. They utilize public utilities, parks and events. They send their children to school, hospitals etc etc etc.

      You call it nationalist trash, others call it being a citizen. Also while i'm venting, I'm sick and tired of people saying that Americans aren't hard working. We are the most hard working nation in the world. We work more hours, have less vacation and produce more "work" than any other industrialized country.

    16. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no one in their right mind thinks of Hispanic as white

      I've really never understood why Hispanic would count as another race. Moving to a new continent and creating a new culture does not change one's race. Or do we give an exception to Spain? Please. Even though Mediterraneans have darker skin than the Nordics, they are still "white". I'm Greek. Can I be my own race, too?

    17. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by 808140 · · Score: 1

      Well, hispanics are not spanish. Spanish people are white (a lot of them aren't even all that dark, blonde hair and blue eyes not being uncommon).

      Hispanics (in the US sense of the word) refers to the mixing of Europeans and South and Central American natives. The two were blended to such an extent that their offspring no longer physically resemble either race. They don't think of themselves as being white, that's for sure; the vast majority of them have much more native blood in them than white, as there were far more natives than whites when the Conquistadores came.

      In fact, in the US, most native south americans would probably be considered hispanic rather than Native American (incorrectly, perhaps, but ... that's how it works).

      Regardless of whether you call them Native Americans or Hispanics, though, they still take a sizeable portion of the pie away from the "white" majority. FWIW, not all Mexicans would be considered Hispanic (although the vast majority probably would be).

      Personally, I'm "Other/Decline to State" until the Census form has a "Human" check box. Race is a stupid distinction anyway.

    18. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by sholden · · Score: 1

      Are the French white? The Germans? The Russians? The Greek? The Spanish? The Italians?

    19. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by uncommonlygood · · Score: 1
      Why, as an American citizen, will I have to compete for jobs and college financial assistance with people who are here illegally from other countries?

      Because it will teach you a valuable lesson about life.

    20. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by The-Bus · · Score: 1

      Psst. You don't need to go to college to compete for a job as a busboy at Steak & Ale or as a loader of manure at a mushroom farm.

      Grow the fuck up.

      (And here I get moderated flamebait).

      --

      Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.

    21. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In my opinion, this question is either silly or a troll.

      Illegal Immigrants:
      1) Cannot go to school.
      2) Cannot receive financial assistance from the government, or even receive a bank loan because they have no social security cards.
      3) Compete for jobs unless they forge documentation.
      4) Cannot live off of wellfare.
      5) Hold though, low pay, unhealthy, unwanted jobs.

      while legal immigrants without a green card, such as international students:

      1) Pay taxes, in fact, proportionally more income tax than Americans.
      2) Cannot receive financial aid for college, or even obtain NSF research funding directly.
      3) Cannot work outside their universities unless they receive a special permit from the government.
      4) Cannot compete for jobs unless employers are willing to go through immigration law due procedures.
      5) Can be deported any time the government feels like it according to the PATRIOT act, even if that means terminating their studies or whatever business brought them here.

      Unless you are expecting some kind of counterreaction from the PR people writing the answers, questions like this one need to be fact checked, changed or removed if necessary.

      I am quite certain someone can come up with a better question.

    22. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by Iamthewalrus · · Score: 1

      Yeah! We've had nothing but problems with those immigrants ever since we got here!

      --
      Help prevent the slashdot effect; stop reading the articles.
    23. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by Wateshay · · Score: 1
      Add to that the increase in cultural diversity that immigrants bring ( I believe something the Yanks are sorely missing, by the way )

      Excuse me?!? The U.S. is the most culturally/racially diverse nation in the world, and I defy you to show differently. Not only are we the most culturally diverse, but we're also one of the most culturally integrated, despite what you may hear. Yeah, we've still got a long way to go, but we're also a lot farther along than most countries out there.

      That said, I agree with you that more immigration is a good thing.

      --

      "If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for everyone else."

    24. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS by PMuse · · Score: 1
      That's a pretty limited question. Why not ask them something really scary, like:

      If there were completely free trade worldwide and sufficient time, wouldn't an equilibrium be reached where the rich will be equally rich everywhere in the world and the poor will be equally poor everywhere in the world? If not, why not?

      Would you consider such an an equilibrium to be unjust in any way? If so, how, and what would you do to avoid that injustice?

      Doesn't a free flow of labor and capital throughout the world dictate that the average standard of living of Americans must decrease over time until it approaches the rising average standard of living of the more populous nations? Please include numbers in your answer to justify your conclusion.

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
  49. 13 - 17 #10 GUN CONTRO by Roblimo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This question is for both candidates. Senator Kerry, if you are elected President, what would you do to cut down on guns in school? President Bush, if you are re-elected, how will you try to cut down on school violence?

    1. Re:13 - 17 #10 GUN CONTRO by buhatkj · · Score: 1

      here's my question....
      why are we wasting time making useless and unconstitutional bans on firearms, when the real problem isnt the tools, its the people using them?
      what will you do to fight urban gang violence?
      How do you feel the problem of urban violence relates to education(or the lack thereof) and drug abuse?
      Do you feel that the prohibition of soft drugs like marijuana and ecstacy have been worth the immense problem of violence and disease associated with the resultant illegal drug trade?

      basically, when will either of you get a clue and treat the cause rather than the symptoms??

      --
      sometimes, i wonder if i'm the only conservative on teh intarweb. ah well, back to mah hogs and warmongerin'....
    2. Re:13 - 17 #10 GUN CONTRO by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

      These are two separate questions, directed at different candidates. Please condense into one question and ask it of both candidates. Or ask both questions of both candidates.

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    3. Re:13 - 17 #10 GUN CONTRO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me tell you guys how disappointing my high school was in preventing guns. There would be random searches where you got wanded and bags searched. The only problem was that the search was done in the morning before you were allowed to enter the school, and every one had to be searched (instead of every 3rd or 5th person). Of course, most people showed up less than 15 min before class started and that wasn't enough time to search every single person. They attempted to consecutively search everyone in line until it was 8am then let the rest of the line enter without searching. There were numerous entrances to the campus and only the front ones were being searched. And also it was obvious that the search was going on form a block away and anyone in line could walk off and discard any illegal possessions with no questions asked. Other times there was in class searches, and they beautifully managed to search the only AP Calculus I class in the high school. In fact they mistakenly showed up to the same class on the same day twice.

    4. Re:13 - 17 #10 GUN CONTRO by buttahead · · Score: 1

      if it is for the both of them... how come they both get different questions? void for not making sense. ask the two questions of both or skip them.

    5. Re:13 - 17 #10 GUN CONTRO by exspecto · · Score: 0

      If you don't mind me asking, why do you put marijuana and ecstacy on the same level?

    6. Re:13 - 17 #10 GUN CONTRO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because they're both psychoactive drugs? I mean really, it wasn't hard to think that one up.

    7. Re:13 - 17 #10 GUN CONTRO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why are we wasting time making useless and unconstitutional bans on firearms

      I find it VERY amusing that the same people that consider any restrictions on 4th Amendment rights to be unconstitutional; have no problem supporting restricting the 1st Amendment.

    8. Re:13 - 17 #10 GUN CONTRO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having done both X and marijuana, I put them on the same level. Pot isn't as effective, but you can do it a lot more often tolerably. X blows you mind, but if you do it more than once a month, you'll probably blow a fuse. Both, however, are harmless, and an awul lot of fun.

    9. Re:13 - 17 #10 GUN CONTRO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just have to respond to that. I don't want to get into a debate over pot, since there's so much evidence on every side of that issue it's almost impossible to come to a conclusion, so I'll let most people make their own decisions. But ectasy is so far from harmless it's almost ridiculous. Besides that there are hundreds of compounds that people on the street call X, assuming you get a more normal cut, it does most of its damage the first time you do it. So granted, if you're already an X user the next one may not hurt you quite as bad, I don't think there's any doubt that X is the most dangerous drug out there right now. Most people know that heroin is bad, or cocaine, but much less know just how bad ectasy really fucks you up. It wrecks havoc on your brain. Do pot, drink, smoke, whatever, just stay the hell away from x.

    10. Re:13 - 17 #10 GUN CONTRO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WTF has the Federal Government or the President got to do with this?

    11. Re:13 - 17 #10 GUN CONTRO by abner23 · · Score: 1

      My Question for the candidates (both hunters)

      Where, exactly, in the Second Amendment, does the Constitution mention guns? It says, and I quote, "keep and bear ARMS". My right to keep and bear ARMS has ALWAYS been infringed. I cannot have a Stinger, VX Gas, anything fully automatic, anything concealed... (nor should I be able to, by the way, in my worthless opinion). Hell, I can't even own a switchblade and the two of you support the "right" of the great, unwashed rabble to own GUNS? Your thoughts?

    12. Re:13 - 17 #10 GUN CONTRO by buhatkj · · Score: 1

      where in my comment did i say that?? yeh, nowhere...thought so. point is, restricting free speech OR firearms are both unconstitutional. the bill of rights is there to protect our rights as citizens of the USA, and the patriot act, and the brady bill BOTH erode those rights. dont lump me in with fucking achcroft just cuz i like gun rights jackass

      --
      sometimes, i wonder if i'm the only conservative on teh intarweb. ah well, back to mah hogs and warmongerin'....
    13. Re:13 - 17 #10 GUN CONTRO by buhatkj · · Score: 1

      well part of what i was getting at was that the fact that it is illegal makes it more dangerous when people DO get their hands on it, because it couldt be either contaminated or downright poisonous, and frequently IS. if the fda had QC standards for it just like they do for tobacco and alcohol it would be safer for those who choose to use it. simple fact is, you cant stop people from wanting it, and as long as there is demand, there will be a market selling it. for soft drugs like pot and x, i dont think a unilateral ban as we have now is practical or productive. a cap on amount in posession perhaps..(ala what they do in denmark) that might work better to discourage abuse. but some college slacker who has 3 joints on him doesnt deserve jailtime...yknow? to me this is common sense.

      --
      sometimes, i wonder if i'm the only conservative on teh intarweb. ah well, back to mah hogs and warmongerin'....
  50. And those of us without mod points by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Get to do what exactly? Twiddle our thumbs?

    1. Re:And those of us without mod points by Apostata · · Score: 1

      Wait, don't tell me you want the freedom to choose in an election.

      --

      This wasn't just plain terrible, this was fancy terrible. This was terrible with raisins in it. - Dorothy Parker
    2. Re:And those of us without mod points by stinerman · · Score: 1

      I would assume we should just reply to the posts with "MOD PARENT UP" and "MOD PARENT DOWN".

      Get crackin', there's 50 posts to reply to.

  51. Must be said... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    51st Post?

  52. For Bush: Nukes or Conventional? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny
    For Kerry: Spit or Swallow?

    ~~~

  53. "Why do you say bad things about each other?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    These are teenagers, not 8 year-olds.

    1. Re:"Why do you say bad things about each other?" by jehiah · · Score: 1

      I'm 23 and I feel the same way, so what's your point?

      I would love to see both candidates forget about some of the 'name calling' and just speak the facts, and let them fall where they may (we can make up our own mind based on the facts... and would like that oportunity). (There are times when this is done, but it should be more)

      We want to elect a president based on their ideas and opinions of the issues facing our country, not on how well they name call eachother. We already know enough about the candidates character and integrety, now we want to know where they stand on real issues.

    2. Re:"Why do you say bad things about each other?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not referring to the point of the question, rather the incredibly simple way in which it was asked.

    3. Re:"Why do you say bad things about each other?" by jehiah · · Score: 1

      lol.. you are right

      Something struck me as odd about the original question, but I couldn't put my finger on it... you did though. simplicity

      oh to have the simple world of a child again

  54. hmm by SQLz · · Score: 0, Troll

    Bush, your brother actually fixed a Florida State election. How do you sleep at night?

    1. Re:hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yes, we should have let the hanging chads be recounted indefinitely until Gore won.
      Bush wins, shit
      Bush wins, shit
      Bush wins, shit
      Gore wins. We are finished counting!!

    2. Re:hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I choose...Troll!! Because you make up stupid shit like this, and don't know WTF you're talking about.

  55. 51! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    51stp

  56. Support Election Reform, check out fairvote.org by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    fairvote is the organization fighting for IRV and PR in America.

    Californians, check out Californians for Electoral Reform

    Despite the lack of IRV and PR; please vote this November!

  57. Um, that's how the founders did it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They purposely chose the electoral college system rather than a direct vote, so there was always a chance the popular vote could be one way and the elector vote a different way. It happened before any of us were even born. They feared mob rule, and in this day, we still should.

    1. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      Please explain how popular vote of the president is anywhere near mob rule. Thanks.

    2. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, let's say on election eve a huge scandal breaks, and the news reports say a candidate was actually a traitor and a spy and they showed "proof." Now, let's assume everyone hears about this that night, goes and votes the next day, and that person loses. Well, we could find out weeks later that the story was faked to influence the elector. The electoral college would prevent this sort of thing from deciding the election. It's also a good backup in case of terrorist disrupted elections.

    3. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That isn't a powerful enough argument for the electoral college and against popular voting, sorry. "Just in case" something wacky might happen isn't a good enough reason.

      The fact is, back in the day, people weren't literate and informed enough to actually understand issues, and today we are (well, alright, you can argue that last point).

    4. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by TexNex · · Score: 1

      Actually the literacy rates were much higher during the 1700's than todays. If you want some insight into why do a google for John Gatto.

    5. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by N3WBI3 · · Score: 1

      Because only the cities will matter, campaign in NYC, CHI, LA, DC, BOS, SF, ... and ignore most of the nation..

      --
    6. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by harvardian · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Some of the drafters of the Constitution worried that the populace would just vote for whoever was popular in their state (this was before everybody had phones and TVs, so states were much more important). Hamilton argued that the Electoral College would counter the degree to which the election was a popularity contest:

      "The process of election affords a moral certainty, that the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications. Talents for low intrigue, and the little arts of popularity, may alone suffice to elevate a man to the first honors in a single State; but it will require other talents, and a different kind of merit, to establish him in the esteem and confidence of the whole Union." cite
      So originally, it was (at least partially) intended to select a candidate who was popular across the entire Union and supported by the body of Electors who were entrusted with the duty of selecting somebody who they believed would be most qualified.

      In today's world, people aren't voting for an Elector whom they trust to select a quality candidate -- they're just voting for a party, since most Electors are pledged to their nominating party (this wasn't anticipated at the time). The result of this strict two-party system and our increasingly national awareness is something much closer to mob rule.
    7. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by imgod2u · · Score: 1

      So your argument is......the American public can't be trusted to vote soundly? Why then even have people vote? The electoral college isn't a "buffer" for common sense or anything. It doesn't give people extra time to think about their vote rather than jumping the gun. All it does (in this day and age) is decrease the granularity of the voting power. No electoral college will (realistically) vote against the party which it was selected to vote for. That's a given. The current way it works only disproportionally favors the votes of certain people (people in the "swing states") more than other people (people in the "blue" or "red" states). For example, I live in California, my vote will essentially count for nothing in the larger picture because California will vote Democrat. The minority who voted Republican or Green or whatever is pretty much tossed asside and their votes discarded. The entire voting power of California goes the way of the majority. Someone else, however, who lives in say Florida, will have much more power to his vote than mine. His/her vote will actually statistically affect the outcome. Voting is an individual thing, it follows that the system which counts votes should have the fine granularity to the level of the individual.

    8. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by Moofie · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As opposed to campaign in Oregon, Florida, Ohio, and Pennsylvania and ignore the rest of the country.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    9. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The fact is, back in the day, people weren't literate and informed enough to actually understand issues"

      No, that has little to do with why they instituted the electoral college. The electoral college existed because there were no quick communication methods in the 1700s. Further, at the time, the US was more like the European Union: a collection of countries. Thus, it made sense for the representatives of each state to pick the president, the way that each European country votes on the head of the European Union.

      The electoral college, senate, and supreme court were compromises between pure democracy (the same mob rule that ordered the suicide of Socrates) and more arbitrary arrangements (e.g. one vote per state). Those who believed in pure democracy compromised with those who did not.

    10. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Campaigning in DC doesn't really get you much. A. It's almost a sure lock for the Democrats, and B. it has very few electoral votes.

    11. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by Mr+Z · · Score: 1

      Hey, at least it raises the bar a little--you have to campaign the whole state. :-)

    12. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by balaam's+ass · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Maybe this is "-1, Offtopic", but how do I find out who my Electors are?

      And why is it, on the ballot, I only see the names of the candidates (Bush, Kerry, etc) and not the names of the ELECTORS that I'm REALLY voting for?

      Thanks.

    13. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by EnronHaliburton2004 · · Score: 5, Informative

      This is one of the best questions in this forum.

      To find out who your electors are, you need to ask the Secretary of State (it's probabably on their webpage).

      Each state handles the Electoral College differently. Some states do list the names of the Electors on your ballot.

      I believe this is the information you are looking for:

      The U. S. Electoral College.

    14. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by EnronHaliburton2004 · · Score: 0

      Right and when majority rules, we call it a democracy. It's a good thing and is something that our country should be striving towards.

      California has 55 electoral votes and a population of 35 million people. That's 1 electoral vote per 636,000 people.

      Montana has 3 electoral votes and 786,000 people. That's 1 electoral vote per every 262,000 people.

      A citizens vote in Montana is worth 2.5 times the vote of a citizen in California. That is anti-democratic.

    15. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by N3WBI3 · · Score: 1
      Right and when majority rules, we call it a democracy

      And unless every citizen gets to vote on every bill its not a true democracy.

      A citizens vote in Montana is worth 2.5 times the vote of a citizen in California. That is anti-democratic.

      and Alan greenspan is apointed, and 5 year olds cant vote *thats* undemocratic. Guess what we are not and were never to be a democracy, we are a republic. The president is the head of the states, not the head of the government. The law makers (Montana has 1 in the hose for 786K, and CA has 53 in the house 1 for every 650K.

      Yes if you want to totally scrap the constitution and start over feel free but without the constitution there is nothing that compells any state to rejoin the union.

      --
    16. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Take a look at the last election in Spain.

    17. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Some of the drafters of the Constitution worried that the populace would just vote for whoever was popular in their state

      Irrelevant. The question was about "mob rule", but your answer was about "sectionalism".

    18. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      That's 1 electoral vote per every 262,000 people.

      Those numbers are correct, but they don't tell the whole story. You're focusing on the ratio between population and electoral votes (which helps small states), but there's another important factor: winner-take-all allocation of those electoral votes.

      WTA creates unfairness too, but it helps larger states. The math on it is harder to work through, but think about probabilities. The power of one person's vote is equal to the chance her single vote will tip the balance in that state, multiplied by the number of votes that state has. George Bush has a low chance of winning CA, but he still campaigns there, because if he were to somehow make it over the top, the Kerry campaign would be DEAD. There's no way they could come back from that 70-point hit.

      All things considered, California votes have the most power, and Nevada the least, with Montana and Kansas down in the bottom 20%. That math is from Electoral College Primer 2000, although I'm copying the data from a Microsoft article.

    19. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      And unless every citizen gets to vote on every bill its not a true democracy.

      Why do these people continue to argue against the dictionary? I can understand disagreeing with a word of recent coinage, like "piracy", "decimate" or "disconnect", but the definition of "democracy" has been set in stone for 1200 years. If you don't like it, get another word.

      Fun fact: Even IF every citizen gets to vote on every bill, it STILL might not be a democracy! Consider France in 1721... there was one citizen, and he voted on each bill.

    20. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Actually the literacy rates were much higher during the 1700's than todays. If you want some insight into why do a

      That's a total lie. The literacy rate in 1700 was less than 1/40th of what it is today. Even in the USA, literacy has increased by more than 5x in the past 300 years.

      Maybe you're confused, and meant 1800 instead of 1700. North America experienced a huge literacy growth across that time.

      google for John Gatto

      Fortunately for him, Gatto is too smart to talk about literacy back before 1850. Note that many historical literacty statistics you find will often be biased to sample men only. And do you think they included the 12% slave population in those figures? Doubtful!

    21. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      The electoral college would prevent this sort of thing from deciding the election.

      No, it couldn't prevent it at all. Suppose that the faked anti-Bush memo on CBS hadn't happened until the week of the election, and suppose that they actually dug up an old typewriter to fake it on, so it took more than 20 minutes to discover the forgery.

      If that contributed to Kerry winning the election, do you actually think that any of his electors will say to himself "Well, I'm a lifelong Democrat, and the people of Florida selected me to pick the President. But- they might have been unfairly influenced by that fake scandal. I suppose I'll go and vote for Bush, just to keep things fair"

    22. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      you have to campaign the whole state

      No you don't.... you can still just campaign the cities. Just this way it's Portland and Orlando instead of Frisco and Manhattan.

    23. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 3, Interesting
      You're not offtopic at all. IMO, you cut to the heart of the problem.

      The electors are appointed by the political parties to vote for the candidate whose name appears on the ballot. In some states they're legally bound to vote for that candidate, but in others they're not. (Some Southern Democrats refused to vote for a Roman Catholic in the 1960 election and cast their ballots for a different Democrat. Imagine if enough of them had done this to throw the election to Nixon.) You don't know who they are because, in a very real sense, who they are makes no difference at all. Nothing is done as the system was envisioned to work.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    24. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      "The process of election affords a moral certainty, that the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications.

      obviousally that does not work. look at the last 3 presidents.

      none of them, both the Bushes and Clinton (and in my eyes it goes back to Nixon) had the righty stuff to lead the superpower on this planet.

      and right now we are staring at 2 people who also do not have these abilities...

      seems our founding fathers never banked on that becoming president was based not on your skills but how much money you have.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    25. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by ChristTrekker · · Score: 1

      Your state's Secretary of State would know. The SoS is the "election official" among other things. I happen to be a presidential elector in Nebraska this year.

    26. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by Mr+Z · · Score: 1

      True enough. Point taken.

    27. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Imagine if enough of them had done this to throw the election to Nixon.

      We would have had watergate 8 years earlier?

    28. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by jdschulteis · · Score: 1

      As opposed to campaign in Oregon, Florida, Ohio, and Pennsylvania and ignore the rest of the country

      Don't forget Wisconsin. I hate living in a battleground state.

    29. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by EnronHaliburton2004 · · Score: 1

      If the founding fathers adopted your attitude we'd still be ruled by the King of England.

      Look, Democracy and freedom are goals, they are a process and are something we should be constantly strive for. If the founding fathers thought that our laws should never change, they would have written that restriction into the Constitution.
      Instead they wrote the process of change into the constition, and there have been 16 amendments to the Constition in the last 200 years.

      In the past, only white men who owned property could vote. The situation is different today -- every citizen can vote regardless if they of their gender, race or economic status. It used to be that 18 year olds couldn't vote. Now they can.
      We elect our senators, they are not appointed like they were initially.

      The Electoral College is an antiquated system. This is the 21st Century, not 18th Century rural America.

    30. Re:Um, that's how the founders did it by N3WBI3 · · Score: 1
      Look, Democracy and freedom are goals, they are a process and are something we should be constantly strive for.

      No the goal is freedom, Democracy is a tool for that goal, but not the only tool. We are a democratic republic, a union of states, each of which can deligate its electors any way they please..

      If the founding fathers thought that our laws should never change, they would have written that restriction into the Constitution.

      Youre not changing laws, your changing the structure of government. Changing the EC is the equivilent of eliminating the president, might as well compleatly rewrite the constitution (and there is nothing to hold the states into a new union).

      nstead they wrote the process of change into the constition, and there have been 16 amendments to the Constition in the last 200 years.

      None of which fundimentally chaged the structure of the US govnermnet.

      In the past, only white men who owned property could vote.

      And they voted for electors

      The situation is different today -- every citizen can vote regardless if they of their gender, race or economic status.

      Not 5 year olds, but if they could they would still vote for electors

      The Electoral College is an antiquated system. This is the 21st Century, not 18th Century rural America.

      How is it antiquated..

      --
  58. Re:Karma Whoring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If someone want to spite him, they'd mod all the comments up funny, and then watch them get modded down! Slashdot's broken karma system at its finest.

  59. Biggest karma whore ever! by InfiniteWisdom · · Score: 1

    50 posts, most of which are going to be modded up! Talk about Karma whoring :)

    But seriously. Many of these are pretty interesting and well thought out questions. I wish the campaign had a lot more of asking questions like these and a lot less mudslinging.

  60. Iraqi Deaths by notcreative · · Score: 1, Interesting

    How many civilian Iraqis have died since "the end of major hostilities" in Iraq?

    1. Re:Iraqi Deaths by LostCluster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And while we're at it... can we get the number of stateside Americans who died since the end of major hostilities too? Granted, very few of those would be directly linkable to the war... but it's a stat and just about as useful as the one being requested by the parent post.

    2. Re:Iraqi Deaths by Politburo · · Score: 1

      Recall that one must multiply Iraq stats by 11 to get a rough comparison to the US. This assumes that 'per capita' statistics are not used. The administration has not been using per capita statistics when talking about Iraq because they like to compare apples (gross crime in iraq) with oranges (gross crime in USA), when the USA has ~11x the population. I think it was Juan Cole's column last week that talked about this.

  61. Confusing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's up with the two-website meta-cross-meta-moderation?

    Perhaps a poorly-planned hype attempt for the other site?

  62. MOD MOTHERFUCKING PARENT UP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's fascinating. I never even considered that angle before. Great insight!!!

  63. Questions for both candidates by mhollis · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Which recommendations of the 9/11 Commission do you oppose and feel are inappropriate for implimentation.

    What specific steps will you take (are you taking) to find Usama bin Laden and Mullah Omar. Exactly what resources ought our military and intelligence services be given to finish the job of capturing these known perpetrators of the worst terrorist attack on the United States?

    Exactly how will Social Security benefits be paid for by your policies after 2020?

    --
    Gods don't kill people, people with gods kill people.
    1. Re:Questions for both candidates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and people without gods kill even more people than those with gods. So, what's your point? Is it that "people kill people"? duhhh..

  64. The Framers did *not* indend what we have by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Framers envisioned IRV! What is in the constitution is a system where people from San Francisco could vote for, let's say, a green party elector, and that elector could arrive at the electoral college and end up voting for the democratic candidate (same holds for reform party + republican). It's the undemocratic state voting procedures that mandate winner-take-all electoral college delegations with electors who are typically under contract to not change their vote no matter what.

    No matter how you slice it, the Framers sure as heck wouldn't consider the current electoral college "more democratic" than a reformed system. You can give small states a larger say in the election without pratically mandating the two-party system (also not a part of the Framer's intentions.)

  65. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS (MPDOWN) by The+Pi-Guy · · Score: 1

    This is the goal of capitalism... whoever can do it, do it. If they can do it for cheaper, cool. If they can do it better for cheaper, bonus. Why should a company hire you if you're doing a shitty job and $IMMIGRANT can do it better faster cheaper?

    jw

  66. #11 - GOOD QUESTION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bush is probably going to invade Iran this winter. There has also been talk of a skill-specific draft (where talented professionals get drafted quiker).

    I do not want to be drafted. Great question.

  67. The Big, Unanswerable Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting


    Instead of choosing our President from amongst the best and the brightest, why are we continually forced to choose the lesser of two evils?

  68. Better question by drix · · Score: 1

    Why should corporations and universities turn down candidates who are smarter, harder working, and more qualified in favor of you, all based on something your parents did?

    You seem to have assimilated the American sense of self-entitlement quite well, indeed.

    --

    I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
    1. Re:Better question by NeoSkandranon · · Score: 1

      Uh, because they're illegal residents of the nation? Sounds like a good reason to me.

      --
      If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
    2. Re:Better question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      illegal residents of the nation

      um ... did you forget, the new term is "undocumented aliens". See, they just "forgot" to document their entry, so we ought to do something about it, like giving them drivers licenses. Then we should allow just the ones who are already here to stay with an amnesty program (again), and assume that the others will now know that we're serious and they shouldn't try to break our laws any more.

      That should do it, don't you think.

  69. WTF? What about the national debt? by MacDork · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The national debt sits at 7.4 Trillion dollars, we have a 500 billion dollar budget deficit, a 500 billion dollar trade deficit, and the one question about the global economy is about the frickin' metric system? I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

  70. Too bad I didn't see this the first time around by drix · · Score: 2, Funny

    I would love to see each of them answer...:

    What is your biggest weakness. What is your opponent's biggest strength?

    --

    I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
    1. Re:Too bad I didn't see this the first time around by quantaman · · Score: 1

      I would love to see each of them answer...:

      What is your biggest weakness. What is your opponent's biggest strength?

      DAMN This is a good one! Mod the parent through the roof!!

      Is it too late to slip in a late entry? This would fit in nicely with the 13-17 age group, seriously I've seen a lot of questions here but am definately most interested by how they would answer this question, if nothing else it will be fun to watch them squirm, each trying to outguess the other by seeming more gracious without actually giving the other any ammo.

      --
      I stole this Sig
  71. Mod up? by mveloso · · Score: 1

    It's always good to ask "why should I vote for you?" and "why do you want the job?"

  72. test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    test

  73. Re:18-35 #13 CHILD ABUSE by Jimmy_B · · Score: 1

    I don't believe the supposition of this question is true, and if it were true I don't believe there's much that can be done which isn't already being done at the state level.

  74. Re:18-35 #13 CHILD ABUSE by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

    Ummm....there's no question here. WTF are they supposed to say besides "I'm opposed to child abuse!" Nix this one.

    --
    We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
  75. Mod up? by mveloso · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I agree, it'll be interesting to see the answer. This would be a great question for most job interviews as well.

  76. #51-53 Extra Credit for Bush by Illserve · · Score: 2, Funny

    How do you spell your last name?

    How old are you?

    What is your favorite color?

    1. Re:#51-53 Extra Credit for Bush by TheMCP · · Score: 1

      No no no... the second question is supposed to be "What is your quest?"

      Of course, now I have twisted visions in my head of the candidates suddenly singing "The Impossible Dream" in the middle of the debate...

  77. odd reasons for democracy by Lanhdanan · · Score: 0, Troll

    Some old woman, like 98 or something like that is voting for her first time. she is the oldest "first time voter" ever. guess who she is voting for? Bush .... guess her reason for voting? cause 'she likes his wife' ... Is democracy dead yet or what? :p

  78. Homeless animals? by IamGarageGuy+2 · · Score: 1

    I never realized that animals needed subsidized housing.

    --
    Stay tuned for new sig...
    1. Re:Homeless animals? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot the animals' right to free health care, you insensitive clod!

  79. Maybe this was a bad idea: by Jerf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ? #1: Score +5, Interesting
    ? #2: Score +5, Interesting
    ? #3: Score +5, Interesting
    ? #4: Score -1, Troll
    ? #5: Score +5, Interesting
    ? #6: Score +5, Interesting

    OK, maybe there is some value to breaking the questions down like that, but if ever there was a time that we needed a cap much larger than 5, this posting is it.

    (Or perhaps re-post all the +5 questions, with a post that doesn't have the +5 limit.)

    1. Re:Maybe this was a bad idea: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Our best bet is to probably look at the comments on the questions, and pick the ones that have the most insightful responses.

      The crappy ones will be modded down, and not seen.

      The better ones will have constructive comments posted, wherein they will be made better.

    2. Re:Maybe this was a bad idea: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right, of course. And the mod options are woefully inadequate - the only useful negative one is 'overrated'. The scores are starting to improve a bit though, currently 19 of the questions are sitting on +5, and more negative mods are starting to be applied.

    3. Re:Maybe this was a bad idea: by St.+Arbirix · · Score: 1

      We really do need a larger cap. Since the cap was first started and the random moderator selection was first instituted, haven't Slashdot's numbers grown enough that twice as many moderators could be made and posts can receive up to twice as many points?

      This system was instituted back when the population of moderators didn't have the time to deal with a ten point system. Has Slashdot not at least doubled by now? Think of how many times over the number of willing moderators has multiplied.

      I think this calls for an Ask Slashdot.

      --
      Direct away from face when opening.
    4. Re:Maybe this was a bad idea: by upsidedown_duck · · Score: 1


      Also, getting "excellent" karma and the bonus mod is rather trivial, now.

      --
      -- "Makes Little Debbie look like a pile of puke!" - Moe Szyslak
    5. Re:Maybe this was a bad idea: by eddeye · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that only those lucky few with mod points at the moment get to participate. I see several underated questions and all I can do is post "Yeah, what he said". Everyone with good karma should be given points to moderate just in this thread.

      --
      Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch.
    6. Re:Maybe this was a bad idea: by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      if ever there was a time that we needed a cap much larger than 5, this posting is it.

      There are numbers above 5, you just can't see them. When Roblimo picks out the questions to pass along, he'll be looking at scores of 20+. That's how it usually works for picking interview questions.

    7. Re:Maybe this was a bad idea: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How can it go above 5? WHen I try to moderate one of these +5 questions as informative, it tells me the comment is already at its limit, and it does NOT take away my mod point. As far as I can tell, it does absolutely nothing.

  80. Who knows? by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    We may already be successful. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Top10

  81. Re:18-35 #8 DRUG POLICY by buttahead · · Score: 1

    this question is redundant to the other question (18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY) about mary jane. the other leads us to answering how to legalize it or why it will never happen. if legal, it would be free to use for medical reasons. if not, then this might be a good question.

    I'd put it on the list only if you think the above mentioned question will be dodged or lead to a denial of ever making pot use legal.

  82. Follow Up: Prove It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a follow up question, will you please kill yourself now, as proof of your willingness to die for your country?

  83. MOD PARENT UP!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ROFL

  84. Posion pill legislation... by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I seriously doubt either Rangel or Hollings seriously want there to be a draft for the sake of bringing people involuntarily into the armed forces. The armed forces have even been pretty loud in saying they don't want a draft as non-trained people who don't wanna be there is of no use to the skill-based armed forces of today.

    The real reason why they want an all-inclusive draft is nothing makes fence-sitters on a war start to hate it than the possiblity of their family members or themselves being thrown into fight against their will. That's the real point, to force a pull-out of Iraq.

    1. Re:Posion pill legislation... by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      Yeah, this is clearly political in nature, especially since Kerry is now threatening that reelecting Bush will result in a draft.

      Meanwhile, Bush is pulling some of the absurd numbers of troops we still have in places like Germany (protecting them from whom?) to help the problem.

      The military may continue to be overstretched, but I think this draft issue is just a scare tactic.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    2. Re:Posion pill legislation... by TGK · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Speaking as a military historian however, the pull back form Germany and other NATO commitments is a very bad idea for several reasons.

      1.) US troops overseas in places like Germany and Japan reaffirms the commitments inherent in NATO. While the NATO alliance was once about mutual defense, it's now a league of ideologically aligned states. As such, it provides one of the single most stabilizing influences in the world. Pulling back from these commitments signals a US regression towards isolationism which, in turn, signals a weakening of the NATO alliance.

      2.) US troops manning bases overseas provide forward deployment points for conflicts world wide. The reason we use air force bases in Germany for casualties in Iraq (for example) is that the facilities are just as good as those available in the United States but don't involve hauling injured persons across the Atlantic. These bases provide a strategically valuable bridge between the home front and the forward operating theater.

      Fundamentally, this pull back is a very very very bad idea. It's being done for political reasons to assure people that we won't need to worry about reinforcements for those being cut down in Iraq. Mostly, it's being done to convince people like my extended family that their sons and daughters who are in the guard won't have to go overseas to fight in a war that most of them are indifferent to.

      The draft thing is being kicked around as a metaphor for a bigger problem. Most people who are in the US reserves (guard, etc) are in them with the same preconceptions that Bush and his fellow guardsmen had in the 1970s, namely that you can serve in the guard and not see combat. Admittedly, this is a really stupid conclusion to make. Nonetheless, people made it and now they're afraid they'll get sucked into Iraq because of Bush's war. Kerry bats around the draft because implicit in that idea is that the guardsmen are going to Iraq, it also conjures up the specter of Vietnam. Bush pooh-poohs the idea of a draft to downplay the possibility of guardsmen going to Iraq and to quash the specter of Vietnam.

      --
      Killfile(TGK)
      No trees were killed in the creation of this post. However, many electrons were inconvenienced.
    3. Re:Posion pill legislation... by Facekhan · · Score: 1

      Kerry has mainly been critizing the "backdoor" draft of stop-loss (ie your committment is up but we are not gonna let you go home yet) and ready reserve (discharged enlistees and retired officers who have not even gone for a training session in years)

      Ironically, whereas National Guard units and the regular military are being sent to Iraq, the Vietnam war was criticized for exactly the opposite reason. In Vietnam, many regular troops and to a much greater extent National Guardsmen were excluded from Vietnam service, in part because at the time draftees mostly 18-20 could not vote. The idea was to keep regular military and NG at home and fight the war with poor kids who could not escape the draft so as to keep public opinion for the war. Vietnam was perhaps the biggest lie in the history of the US government. The proof that has been declassified over the years and the famous "Pentagon Papers" showed without a doubt that five successive administrations lied about Vietname from the beginning. The papers show that as early as the Kennedy administration it was known that winning in Vietnam would require no less than 500,000 troops and would cost 50,000-75,000 American lives.

      It makes me wonder what the current classified reports say we need to win in Iraq. Probably 10 years, about 200,000 troops there at a time with about 10,000-15,000 casualties expected. That is just my guess but it coincides with the excalating violence which is already going at over 1000 kia per year.

    4. Re:Posion pill legislation... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's assuming that the reason for the draft isn't to get more troops to go after the rest of the "axis of evil" that we haven't invaded yet!

    5. Re:Posion pill legislation... by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      You've got a very good point, but I have to believe that the numbers of forces in Europe don't need to be as high as they were during the Cold War without compromising our commitment to NATO.

      Similarly, the "trip wire" in the South Korea DMZ is essentially cannon fodder. I understand that Bush is working with China (and Japan and others) to help keep pressure on Kim to keep it in his pants. Shipping some of these folks to other locations probably makes sense, based on what I know.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    6. Re:Posion pill legislation... by TGK · · Score: 1

      The number of troops isn't just about NATO though, it's about keeping those bases at realistic levels to allow their deployment to other theaters around the world.

      It doesn't matter which side of the terror controversy you back. The NATO pull out was a bad idea either way.

      Democrat: Troops overseas keep us close to our allies. Our troops spend money, bolster local economies, and engender a sence of loyalty and familial warmth between the US military and foreign powers. Closeness with our allies is the only way we can expect to realisticly fight a war on terrorism

      Republican: Overseas troops are vital to our ability to project force into the Mid East and Asia. Islamist extremism is the number one threat to national security and our ability to feild military power overseas depends on our ability to support and supply our troops utilizing the closest available existing military infrastucture. Planes need airstrips, toops need hospitals, and ships need harbors. All of these facilities and the people who man them are vital assets in the war on terror.

      Finaly, the "trip wire" force isn't intended to be able to defend shit. If the North rolls over the border into the south they kill American soliders and we're at war. The reason they're there is because the 1st Korean was was touched off by Dean Atchison (while he served under Truman) when he failed to enumerate S. Korea as an area we'd defend.

      --
      Killfile(TGK)
      No trees were killed in the creation of this post. However, many electrons were inconvenienced.
  85. Re:WTF? What about the national debt? by Solder+Fumes · · Score: 4, Funny

    If we switched to Metric dollars, the conversion rate would erase the national debt in nothing flat.

  86. no no no no by snooo53 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    You're missing the whole point of the original question here and replacing it with a typical Fox-News/ big media question that is repeated time and time and time again.

    The original poster is talking about a radical reform of our electoral system, not nitpicky details of whether we should use this machine or that machine to tally votes.

    I'm not saying yours isn't a valid question; but it's going to be asked a thousand times by CNN et al. However, you can bet no one at the debates is going to ask a question about a major overhaul of our democratic system like the parent post. This is the perfect forum to ask these tough questions that wont be covered otherwise... I can honestly say I have zero interest in the Bush-Kerry debates on tv, but I would love to hear their answers to half of these questions that were proposed.

    --
    The sending of this message pretty much inconveniences everyone involved.
    1. Re:no no no no by rwiedower · · Score: 1

      Along with changes to the "system", why not add in a line about why the District of Columbia doesn't have a representative with a vote in Congress?

    2. Re:no no no no by nido · · Score: 1

      I can honestly say I have zero interest in the Bush-Kerry debates on tv, but I would love to hear their answers to half of these questions that were proposed.

      I don't think Bush or Kerry will be the ones doing the answering. "... I would love to hear their advisors' answers to half of these questions..."

      --
      Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
      www.teslabox.com
  87. BUSH QUESTION. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Given that we are fighting the axis of evil, why are we trading with a communist country such as China. Why should we reward one despot nation and wage war with another?

  88. Re:#11 - GOOD QUESTION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Our troops are too burdened down in Iraq to be effective at staging an assault in Iran. An assault on Iran probably wouldn't occur until 2007 at the very least and would require a significant expansion of the troop levels in theatre beforehand. Iran is not Iraq and has not been suffering under the crippling UN sanctions like Iraq had. Most likely, Israel will deal with Iran via airpower with a wink and a nudge from the US in the backchannels.

    However, if I was of the draft age, I'd be looking to settle down and raise a family maybe a little earlier than I was planning, or at the least check out relocation options to countries that don't declare war on everyone who steps on their toes, ala Canada.

  89. This question blows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why is "Democracy" considered such an ideal.
    We are a Constitutional Republic arguably superior than any other system extant.Why thow out our Constituition for trendy leftist "reforms".The Founding Fathers (sorry no PC Framers) could have drawn up a more "demcratic" system yet didn't for reasons obvious to anyone who ever had a civics class in school.

  90. Re:WTF? What about the national debt? by LostCluster · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Just how do you think we're going to get out of our debt if we don't do things to increase economic activity. Can't tax income that doesn't happen...

    Converting to SI might help us cut down that 500 billion trade deficit stat you just quoted.

  91. Re:18-35 #4 AIDS: But asked a better way by Karl+Cocknozzle · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Every day, 10,000 people die of AIDS, not only in Africa, but also in the U.S. and every country in the world. Many people say AIDS is the worst disaster the world has ever seen because it is killing millions of young people, and robbing the world of its future. While the U.S. is spending more to fight AIDS than ever before, we're still not nearing the minimal goals the UN has set for total global AIDS funding ($12 billion by 2005 and $20 billion for 2007). As President of the richest and most powerful country, what proportion of this $20 billion price tag are you prepared to meet? Also, regarding the $15 billion we've pledged to go toward HIV/AIDS programs in 15 of the world's hardest hit nations over the next 5 years, what will the U.S.'s role be in the other nations that are suffering from the AIDS crisis, and what can Americans do to ensure that the entire $15 billion of support pledged by our government goes towards fighting HIV/AIDS worldwide, regardless of who wins this Election?

    A better way to ask the question:

    The U.N. has set a goal to fund global AIDS research at $15 billion by 2005 and $20 billion by 2007. Given how distructive AIDS and HIV is to society, what portion of that tab would each of you recommend paying and why?
    --
    Who did what now?
  92. 4-11 #51 LIKENESS TO PAST PRESIDENTS by craXORjack · · Score: 5, Funny

    Senator Kerry, we all know that George W. Bush (43) looks just like George H. W. Bush (41) for obvious reasons, but can you explain your own peculiar resemblance to Andrew Jackson ?

    --
    Liberals call everyone Nazis yet they are the closest thing to it.
    1. Re:4-11 #51 LIKENESS TO PAST PRESIDENTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OMG, please ask this, if for nothing but to lighten up the mood.

  93. 18-35 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by bolix · · Score: 1, Redundant

    All parties admit that the reasoning leading to the invasion of Iraq has been a $200 billion dollar mistake.

    1000 soldiers have lost their lives. To what extent, if any, have cost-cutting measures been behind these deaths.

    1. Re:18-35 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Lightning+Hopkins · · Score: 1

      I haven't seen the $200 billion figure coming from anywhere other than from Kerry. Most other sources say the war's cost far is a negligible $120-140 billion. (http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=253) Although apparently some say he meant the $200 billion figure to mean the eventual cost, he implies that we've already spent that much. We haven't, but we have somehow misplaced $8.8 billion. (http://www.ipsnews.net/africa/interna.asp?idnews= 25168)

      --
      Eh?
    2. Re:18-35 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by bolix · · Score: 1

      Yes you are correct when considering the "reported" cost to date. Check http://costofwar.com/ for an updated ticker.

      You are assuming of course that when someone refers to the Cost of the War in Iraq that they imply a "to-date" qualifier. This is not necessarily the case. Kerrys figures likely encompass the entire period leading up to the Iraqi National Elections and supposed hand-off of power i.e. when we are "done" and the UN starts to sucks up the bulk of the cost.

      I can only assume the negligible indicator is ironic. As negligable apparently as the national debt and deficit.

      The sources for the cost of the war are based on data the government provides. This is the same government who trumpet victory when the jobless figures drop because the long term unemployed drop off the register. The same government who fight tooth and nail for their right to hide everything and anything they want from the people who pay for it. The Bush-camp distort/spin everything but yet we are to believe these figures are reasonable?

      The true figures are likely much much worse. Even Kerrys figures are below the true cost. Whats the cost of long term care for 10s of thousands of injured soldiers in the most expensive Healthcare system on the planet?

    3. Re:18-35 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by Lightning+Hopkins · · Score: 1

      Preaching to the choir, man. I'm with you. I was just saying that it hadn't cost that much yet, although it likely will cost $200 billion or more over the next year or two. And yeah, that's sort of a quibble. I was just pushing for more specificity.
      Also, the American lives lost in Iraq tally is closer to 1,053. Total wounded: 7,290. Total Iraqi civilians killed, thirteen to fifteen thousand. Do you have any figures on total number of Iraqi civilians wounded?

      --
      Eh?
    4. Re:18-35 IRAQ/FOREIGN AFFAIRS by bolix · · Score: 1

      The Iraqi authorities actively discourage the release of the Iraqi wounded tally http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/iraq1003/. The US authorities "don't do bodycounts".

      The bodycounts are tallied by 3rd parties on sites like http://icasualties.org/oif/ or http://www.iraqbodycount.net/. A rough extrapolation from US casualties to wounded based on the nature of the casualties (predominately due to coalition or faction bombs) the wounded figure could be 5-10 times the number of casualties i.e. 65/75 to 130/150 thousand.

  94. Right back at you by achurch · · Score: 1

    Why should corporations and universities overlook crimes [illegal entry/overstay] being actively committed by canditates? Or if they don't, why shouldn't they be punished?

  95. Oops by achurch · · Score: 1

    Or if they don't, why shouldn't they be punished?

    Should of course be "And if they do . . ."

  96. Power of the bully pulpit... by Goonie · · Score: 1
    • The President, whatever the constitution says, has the power of the bully pulpit to forcefully put issues on the national agenda. If a popular president started advocating for serious electoral reform, the issue would instantly get taken up in Congress and in the media.
    • On issues that have penetrated the mainstream there is already a huge volume of material out there. This is an important issue in the longer term, but it's off the radar screen of the mainstream, so it's a good one to ask here.
    • Finally, I doubt there's any Americans on Slashdot who haven't made up their minds who to vote for (For those of you who haven't, what rock have you been living under?). Therefore, I think it's worth asking questions about non election-deciding issues to get an insight into where the mainstream of both parties are on them.
    --

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
    --Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
    1. Re:Power of the bully pulpit... by Jerf · · Score: 1

      Finally, I doubt there's any Americans on Slashdot who haven't made up their minds who to vote for (For those of you who haven't, what rock have you been living under?). Therefore, I think it's worth asking questions about non election-deciding issues to get an insight into where the mainstream of both parties are on them.

      Ah, now that is a point worth making. (To counter my response to the first reply.)

      Upon reflection, I still think it is a marginal issue, but good argument.

  97. This is ridiculous by ChiralSoftware · · Score: 1
    The country is going metric in every way that counts. When Ford acquires control of Mazda, do you think they told all the Mazda engineers to switch to the English system? No, of course not. Ford is switching to metric. Same for all the big auto manufacturers. Same for everyone in various technical fields. Basically anything that technical or engineering related has already switched, due to the results of globalization (multinational companies), and NATO (and thus the US DoD) being metric.

    Sure, road signs are still English, and you still buy a gallon of milk. Those are cultural things that will stick around forever. They also don't really matter. Everything that matters is now metric.

    1. Re:This is ridiculous by wizzardme2000 · · Score: 0

      Actually, the road signs not so much. Here in Canada, near popular American destinations, we see miles and mph, but other than that it's all in metric. Don't forget, we switched at one point, too...

      --

      Toast lands jelly down. If you jelly both sides of a piece of toast, it will hover in a state of quantum indecision.
    2. Re:This is ridiculous by hb253 · · Score: 1

      Just an FYI,

      US auto manufacturers switched to metric years ago. Even my 1987 Dodge B250 Van uses metric fasteners.

      --
      Self awareness - try it!
  98. Re:18-35 #37 PERSONAL - Dupe by BSDevil · · Score: 1

    We've had this (or a variant) before, when Bush told the world that his favourite philospher was Jesus

    --
    Cue The Sun...
  99. No, there IS a point to the draft by Nomihn0 · · Score: 1
    If you use a lottery system that transcends all socio-economic boundaries, equal representation will be guaranteed in the armed forces. As is, the poverty stricken are left with nowhere to go but the army. Sometimes the lower-middle class is hit hard too, as parents cannot afford college for their children. Because they have enough to live day to day, they likely see college as a luxurious opportunity, but not an impossible one by any means. This is especially true with the government paying their way. That is, if the fine young men and women return from Afghanistan, Iraq, or (soon, I expect) Iran.

    My personal opposition to this bill is the fact that it could be used as a cover for the real reason Bush might want to reinstitute the draft - a dearth of available service members to ship to other countries.

    Admittedly, Democrats have pushed the bill from the start - so I am torn in loyalty. I agree with the idea, just not its timing or execution.

    1. Re:No, there IS a point to the draft by LBArrettAnderson · · Score: 1

      I don't see how that could possibly have anything to do with my comment.

      let me clarify: The fact that there are a lot of lower class people in the military has nothing to do with the way the draft works at the current moment because we HAVEN'T HAD a draft recently.

    2. Re:No, there IS a point to the draft by angle_slam · · Score: 1
      First, Bush does NOT want to reinstitute the draft. It's the anti-war people who want to reinstitute the draft, not the hawks.

      Second, who cares if the volunteer service is not "representative"? Life is not perfect. The ranks of every profession in the world is disproportionate.

    3. Re:No, there IS a point to the draft by bnenning · · Score: 1

      As is, the poverty stricken are left with nowhere to go but the army.

      If true, then the military is their best available option, and a draft would deprive many of them of that opportunity.

      I agree with the idea

      The idea of involuntary servitude to the government? Why stop at the military? The IRS needs sysadmins and DBAs, why not allow them to compel you to work for them at gunpoint?

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    4. Re:No, there IS a point to the draft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are looking at it backwards. If we reinstituted the draft, it would pull people from all socioeconomic classes into the army (other than those who escape the draft by using their influence to get into exempt classes, but ignore that for the moment). The volunteer army is of course composed mostly of those who need the job. The claim is that prosecuting a war without a draft puts an undue burden on those of lower socioeconomic classes (i.e. the poor).

    5. Re:No, there IS a point to the draft by Nomihn0 · · Score: 1

      . . . "I agree with the idea" of equal representation. Why must everybody take my words so far out of context?

    6. Re:No, there IS a point to the draft by Nomihn0 · · Score: 1

      I KNOW that. I said that the Democrats have been the ones pushing this. I said that it is a fine line to walk because Bush may actually need the draft soon. Please, RTFP!

    7. Re:No, there IS a point to the draft by angle_slam · · Score: 1
      Bush may actually need the draft soon

      Maybe you should RTFP. What I said was in response to what you repeated--Bush may need to reinstate the draft. Bush is AGAINST the draft and will not reinstate it.

    8. Re:No, there IS a point to the draft by Nomihn0 · · Score: 1
      Excuse me, but you do not seem to understand the point I was making. Bush, by all that I can tell, does not want the draft right now - especially with the imminent election.

      But, Bush may soon find that he has run out of reservists to ship overseas. My explanation was clear: Bush may HAVE to reinstate the draft. If he intends to continue invading countries in the Middle East so that we can be prepared for the Second Coming, he's going to have to cough up an army. We don't have battle droids. So, I'd wager, should Bush win the election, the draft will be reinstated soon after (be it directly or more subtley - like how he ignored the assault weapon ban extension).

    9. Re:No, there IS a point to the draft by angle_slam · · Score: 1
      You don't seem to understand the whole checks and balances thing. No matter how much Bush (or Kerry) wants anything, it won't happen unless Congress passes a law. And no Congressman who wants to keep his job will vote for such a law, barring an invasion.

      Unlike the Assault Weapon Ban, which had a built-in expiration date, the draft doesn't. There is no back door way of reinstating the draft.

  100. Even lower animals "know how to get pregnant" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The questions get even dumber.
    Sex education beyond simple biology is a minefield of contrary moralities both secular and freligous none of which should be imposed by the State over the objections of parents .

  101. why just bush and kerry? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    what about mr badnarik?

    www.badnarik.org/plans.php

  102. Re:WTF? What about the national debt? by halo1982 · · Score: 1

    by switching to metric dollars...right?

  103. Re:18-35 #37 PERSONAL - Dupe by aggieben · · Score: 1

    Yup. It was on national television back when Bush was a candidate for the first time.

    --
    Don't become a regular here, you will become retarded. -- Yoda the Retard
  104. (ot) Re:18-35 #6 DRUG POLICY by FiloEleven · · Score: 1

    Now decidedly OT:

    Yeah, I was very impressed by the Badnarik Slashdot interview - enough to do a lot of reading. While I don't agree with everything in the Libertarian party, I'm impressed enough at his willingness to actually ANSWER A QUESTION, as well as his stance on most issues, that he'll be getting my vote.

    It's very frustrating for me now because I'd love to see more people become aware of Badnarik's platform, but that seems unlikely, as he's essentially locked out of the "open" debate.

  105. What are you talking about? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Do you have any evidence that gun violence is a problem in schools? Is there any hint at all that ridiculous laws like the Assault Weapons Ban would actually cut down on the already almost non-existant problem of guns in schools? Sure, there have been a very small number of very spectacular school shootings, but hey, about five people die every month of being struck by lightning, too. Whatever. It's terrible that children have been shot in schools, but things happen. Freedom has a price. Outlawing guns will have an enormous price.

    I strongly recommend that you carefully read this site about human rights to understand the dangers of gun control.

    1. Re:What are you talking about? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah, like no more deer hunting with glocks and AKs? praise jesus and thank the lord for medal of honor and unreal tournament which has given me the satisfaction of blowing things up without actually having to have the right to do so.

  106. Can't we make this more relevant? Mention NASA? by NicksMyName · · Score: 1
    I am sorry but this has to be the weakest question of the lot.

    I'm no expert but surely Metric vs. Imperial is not the big issue in US Competiveness. China, India and other Asian countries are not outcompeting the US because of Metric adoption surely?

    Now there is the question of Metric adoption at NASA and failed Mars missions which might relate this a bit more to the "real" world. Let's spice it up please Metric fans!

  107. interstate commerce clause by autopr0n · · Score: 1

    There was never a need for an amendmant, apperantly, to ban alchohol. But what the government has done is ban the sale of MJ and other drugs under the commerce clause of the constitution.

    The bigger issue is that the states have also banned most drugs pretty much universaly, which they have the right to do (in fact, they can ban alchohol if they wish)

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
  108. Favors Challenger Over Incumbent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This question favors the challenger over the incumbent. That's a bias. Furthermore, the bias would exist in any election with an incumbent, regardless of which party is the incumbent. Imagine asking it of Clinton / Dole in 1996, or even Reagan / Mondale in 1984.

    1. Re:Favors Challenger Over Incumbent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It favors the challenger only if the incumbent has screwed up.... which he has. Suck it down.

    2. Re:Favors Challenger Over Incumbent by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      There has never been an leader in the history of the world who has not screwed up. Such perfection is impossible. Therefore, this is only an opportunity for the challenger to score points at the expense of the incumbent, regardless of who they are or what positions they take.

      Besides, this question will only be dodged anyway. What do you do when you interview for a job and the guy asks, "What would you say is your greatest weakness?" Do you answer truthfully, and say "You know, sometimes I just get so drunk I can't get out of bed in the morning!" or do you make up a bullshit answer like "Gosh, it's embarassing, but I just get so wrapped up in my projects that I just work too hard!"

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
  109. Simple questions.... by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

    President Bush: How do you pronounce "Nuclear"?

    Senator Kerry: How do you pronounce "Genghis Khan"?

    --
    You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    1. Re:Simple questions.... by cortez · · Score: 1

      I think the answer to those questions is "I don't get it."

      Especially the second one.

      --
      Paizurishitetai desu ka?
  110. One Simple Question by mutterer · · Score: 1

    How many times have you been arrested? (http://onesimplequestion.blogspot.com/)

  111. Two for Kerry. by serial_crusher · · Score: 1

    1) So, you plan on keeping American jobs in America by buying Canadian drugs? 2) Democrats always say that Bush's foreign policy angers the rest of the world. In 2003, the World Trade Organization forced Bush to reluctantly repeal our steel tariffs. Your campaign argues that you will bring these tariffs back. Won't this make the rest of the world angry?

    1. Re:Two for Kerry. by TheMCP · · Score: 1
      1) So, you plan on keeping American jobs in America by buying Canadian drugs?
      You mean the drugs that were made in America by Americans working for American companies, after they were invented by American researchers in American laboratories, and shipped to Canada to be sold for much lower prices than they sell them for here?
  112. Re:#11 - GOOD QUESTION by Triumph+The+Insult+C · · Score: 1

    Canada has an agreement with the United States to not allow draftees to relocate within .ca. I am unsure if there is a similar agreement with Mexico though.

    --
    vodka, straight up, thank you!
  113. Assessment of questions... by Pollux · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Alright, rather than just "mod", here's my take on all of them:

    1) Electoral Reform - Oh brother. The electoral system is not broken. You should understand that the fact that a minority-vote-getter can become president actually proves that "Majority rules, minority rights" does exist in this country. Besides, electoral voting actually strengthens the individual vote (Miami-Dade county would not even exist if it wasn't for the 2000 vote).

    2) Online Voting - my opinion, but I think there's more pressing issues than just the opportunity to vote online (besides, you don't get the obligatory "I voted" sticker).

    3) Judiciary Appointment - this process was made to prevent stupid Joes from appointing judges. You can call it corruption, but Bush has had a *ton* of court appointments denied by Congress ... there are checks and balances to this system.

    4) AIDS - not unique. This question always appears in the debates, and they always have canned answers. "Blah blah, money for research, blah blah, I don't have AIDS, so I don't care, blah blah." Move on.

    5) Supreme Court Justices - PICK THIS. Every president wants some "echo" of their power to last throughout the ages, and this dates all the way back to John Adams and the appointment of Federalist John Marshall. Ask this question, and you get a good mirror image of the policies you can expect from candidates themselves.

    6) Marijuana vs. Alcohol - Hippie question. Alcohol is part of our culture, like it or abstain from it. No dance with Mary Jane. Move on.

    7) Drug Fight - Don't ask -- you'll get another canned answer from the politicans. "DARE this, Community involvement that, but you gotta love the alcohol commercials!"

    8) Medical Marijuana - Another canned response "Needs more research - need to make sure there's a way that it doesn't get abused." Not worth the breath, hippie. Go pack your bags and move to Holland.

    9) Drug Provision for Financial Aid - Definately the way to Go. My gosh, this is a good question, and one I never thought about before. Poster definately has a point that those who have paid their time still deserve an education.

    10 and 11) Draft - They'll all deny it, and everyone knows that. They may plan it, but they'll never admit to it. So don't bother to ask.

    12) Focused goal on Alt. Fuels - Worth Asking, especially with the spin on the "10 year mission to the Moon" emphasis. It just goes to prove that things can get done if you really put your mind to it.

    13) Child Abuse - Sad to say it, but skip it. What you need to stop this is GrassRoots - neighbor to neighbor, family to family, friend to friend, and teacher to student is the only way to fix abuse. Jail does not deter hate.

    14) Animal Rights - Eat more meat. Death to PETA. Next.

    15) Sex Ed - Thought Provoking - it's a good domestic question, because teenage pregnancy has always been a problem.

    16) Home Schooling - Last I checked, Bush was supporting it with "No Child Left Behind." If he wasn't, he'll just plug it as another alternative to failing schools.

    17) USA, the World Bully - Fine ask it, but the same question will be asked in the debates, and the answers will only be the same as what is said in the television commericals.

    18) Isreal vs. Palestine - Don't ask, don't tell - it's been the policy for the last 50 years regarding the actions of Isreal. No US leader that I know will change that right now.

    19) Integrate Family Values - Of course, the president has always been responsible for raising the children of the US-of-A. Need family values? Find a family that you can value.

    20) Metric Conversion in the USA - thanks. I needed a laugh. Metric in the USA? That's hilarious.

    21) Civil Marriage for Gay/Lesbian

    1. Re:Assessment of questions... by CanadaDave · · Score: 1
      1) Electoral Reform - Oh brother. The electoral system is not broken. You should understand that the fact that a minority-vote-getter can become president actually proves that "Majority rules, minority rights" does exist in this country. Besides, electoral voting actually strengthens the individual vote (Miami-Dade county would not even exist if it wasn't for the 2000 vote).

      I didn't know someone could stick their head so far up their ass. How does first-past-the-post strengthen the individual vote?

    2. Re:Assessment of questions... by moonsammy · · Score: 1

      The electoral system is not broken.
      You're right, it isn't broken - but it does suck. I'm afraid to vote for anyone but one of the major two (this time at least), because I just can't stomache the idea of the wrong one winning. I think a *lot* of people feel the same way. Instant run-off voting (and at least one or two other systems I'm sure) seems to give more of a mandate - the winner is the candidate that is generally preferred over the others, not necessarily the one with the largest number of vocal followers.

      Imagine a situation where there are 10 parties with candidates for president, and an issue that splits the country 15/85, and that completely polarizes the nation. (This isn't a realistic scenario I realize) Now, if only one of those candidates sides with group A (15% of the population), and the other 9 split, more or less evenly, group B (85%)... in our current system the 15% favored candidate wins. In instant runoff voting someone preferred by group B would probably win. Which seems more fair to you?

    3. Re:Assessment of questions... by hitchhacker · · Score: 3, Insightful


      6) Marijuana vs. Alcohol - Hippie question. Alcohol is part of our culture, like it or abstain from it. No dance with Mary Jane. Move on.

      So you are saying that the government has the right to prohibit something for cultural reasons?
      Oh wait.. So long as it's not _your_ culture..

      -metric

    4. Re:Assessment of questions... by upsidedown_duck · · Score: 1

      how many senior citizens actually earn enough money to pay even $300/month, a modest amount, for prescription drugs

      Given how many prescriptions the average senior has, I wonder if doctors think about just how much they are paying before writing yet another prescription. I generally believe most people are over-medicated, too.

      --
      -- "Makes Little Debbie look like a pile of puke!" - Moe Szyslak
    5. Re:Assessment of questions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) Electoral Reform - Oh brother. The electoral system is not broken. You should understand that the fact that a minority-vote-getter can become president actually proves that "Majority rules, minority rights" does exist in this country. Besides, electoral voting actually strengthens the individual vote (Miami-Dade county would not even exist if it wasn't for the 2000 vote).

      Bull. The electoral districts are constantly re-districted, and talking about voting methods like IRV or approval isn't doing anything to destroy the electoral system. If anything, it takes away the "throwing your vote away" for a lesser known candidate whereas plurality involves voting for the lesser evil as a way to hedge it's bets on who they REALLY don't want in office...

      Now proportional representation, there's a balsy idea compared to what we're used to. Lots of more democratic governments than ours use that in their parliment, but we've got to get past the "we did it better" notion that we're taught in school to look at that honestly.

      6) Marijuana vs. Alcohol - Hippie question. Alcohol is part of our culture, like it or abstain from it. No dance with Mary Jane. Move on.

      So common sense shouldn't rule the day? Hell, it would be even easier to manipulate the public if there were more pot smokers, I'm almost amazed that politicians don't legalize it. But it builds too many careers (police, prison guards, construction, prosecutors and public defenders, etc.) to end the war on drugs.

      10 and 11) Draft - They'll all deny it, and everyone knows that. They may plan it, but they'll never admit to it. So don't bother to ask.

      True enough, but it may still be worth confronting them on both bills as well as rumblings from the SS about gearing up the draft age and changing the draftable age to 34 and including women (http://blatanttruth.org/draft.php).

      13) Child Abuse - Sad to say it, but skip it. What you need to stop this is GrassRoots - neighbor to neighbor, family to family, friend to friend, and teacher to student is the only way to fix abuse. Jail does not deter hate.

      Mostly agreed, but poverty and repression breed hate and this is a symptom of disconnect and feelings of powerlessness.

      22) Insurance Reform - WILL MORE PEOPLE SCREAM FOR THIS QUESTION - I know almost all of us here are young, healthy, and isured, but believe me, a lot of people are not, and health insurance in the US is insanely expensive, for all the wrong reasons (how many senior citizens actually earn enough money to pay even $300/month, a modest amount, for prescription drugs). And will people stop looking for lawsuit windfalls from doctors?

      Important question, but the more important one is Health Care reform as a whole. Canda has the highest costing socialized health care of nations that pick up the tab themselves, and it still costs less than half of what our system costs. Insurance is the costliest part to be sure, but so is hospitals paying for administering care, often to illegal aliens, that they don't collect on (and jacking up the price to medicare at the same time). It's important to be humanitarian, but when the whole system is based on screwing the insurance companies (who screw their clients back in premiums right away) to make up for the ones that don't have any, it's not a soundly based system.

      27) What if Iraq votes for Islamic Gov't? - Then we'll invade them again, because obviously they don't understand what Democracy means.

      I don't know whether I'd cry or laugh to actually hear it, but that's gonna be the jist of anything they reply.

    6. Re:Assessment of questions... by Coryoth · · Score: 3, Interesting

      40) Intelectual Property - Yea, right. Like the candidates are going to understand this question. Course, it will be worth asking it just to see the confused look on Bush's face and another possible Bushism for the Calendar.

      Look, the point of this is to ask questions that the candidates haven't been asked before, or aren't likely to be asked at some future point. A lot of the questions are pretty standard, or close to standard, but this one is so far off the track of what's traditionally asked that you expect both candidates to be baffled by it. To me that means it is an ideal question, because no one else is actually asking it of them, and I don't think it's at all likely anyone else (who actually gets to ask them questions) will either. This question should be asked.

      Hell, even Michael Badnarik who is far more likely to have a few clues on such issues provided a sheer load of waffle in answer to this question when asked by Slashdot. I expect David Cobb to do much the same (as I presume it will be included with his questions). Who cares if we don't get a coherent answer, the fact that we don't should be a very good sign that we ought to keep asking this question, ever more pointedly, until we do get some real answers.

      Admittedly the question would be better if they dropped the first sentence and just asked specifically about views on extending copyright, and reforming patent law. That would make for a pretty specific question where any waffling would be obvious.

      Jedidiah.

    7. Re:Assessment of questions... by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

      I agree with you and enjoy your commentary on most of these points. However, I do think that voting reform (allowing preferential voting or some other system that allows me to make a non-top-runner my first choice without penalty) would be great. Never going to happen, but it'd help make people aware of the issue, and it's a tough one to waffle out of.

    8. Re:Assessment of questions... by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      I expect David Cobb to do much the same (as I presume it will be included with his questions).

      The Green Party platform is that all software should be Open Source. (How that might be encouraged or mandated, they don't say)

    9. Re:Assessment of questions... by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      8) Medical Marijuana - Another canned response "Needs more research - need to make sure there's a way that it doesn't get abused."

      Uh, no. Bush won't say anything like that- he's already decided that there is no way to allow medical pot. Kerry will waffle on it, but doesn't want to appear too pro-drug (hoping to pick up some borderline Republicans on fiscal/international responsibility issues)

      10 and 11) Draft - They'll all deny it, and everyone knows that. They may plan it, but they'll never admit to it. So don't bother to ask.

      No. Anyone anti-war will happily admit to planning a draft, because they think fear of draft will help prevent going to war.

      21) Civil Marriage for Gay/Lesbians - Stick it to them and watch Bush squirm. Worth asking, just to watch candidates try and see how to ride the fence.

      Oh, you're TOTALLY wrong about that one. Bush will love that question- Kerry's the one who squirms about it. Yeah, Kerry's stated position is to be "anti-gay-marriage, but leave it to the states". Which to the voters that matter, sounds no better than "anti-abortion, but leave it to the mother".

      Bush loves any chance he can get to be anti-gay, without seeming "hateful". And this issue casts anti-gay as "pro-family", which is all the edge he needs.

      Also, that question was worded in a pushy pro-gay way, which Bush could turn to his advantage, by saying that "No, there aren't really differences between civil and religious marriage. The state interest is to promote stable families"

      Revenge is condoned, in face it is encouraged. You kill my brother, I have a right under Islamic Law to kill your brother.

      Not quite. You kill brother -> I kill you. Otherwise, murderers with only sisters would be quite safe. But, kill a child, lose a child.

      36) Is it OK to change your mind? - CATFIGHT!!! YES!!!...Course, that's not the answer you'll hear either of them say!

      Bush will say yes ("I would've changed my mind, if I'd ever been wrong about anything.") Kerry would say yes, but he's too scared of being called a flip-flopper. His best move is a non-answer that accuses Bush of either flip-flopping, or failing to change after being proven wrong.

    10. Re:Assessment of questions... by edwinolson · · Score: 1

      The electoral college does NOT preserve the rights of the minority as you claim.

      What it does is provide a major distorting factor that amplifies some folks' votes, while utterly negating others... without any particular preference for how they were voting.

      For example, a handful of Florida voters became absolutely critical. You can fairly say their vote "counted". But my vote, being a non-democrat from Massachusetts, didn't "count" worth squat!

    11. Re:Assessment of questions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your trying to immigrate your wife here? Me too. Seven months? HAHAHAHAHA I hope you are at least 1 year and 5 months into it. Two years minimum before you two are able to be together. We are going on 3 years here and I was born in this country. Good luck.

    12. Re:Assessment of questions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Frankly... yes.

      Prohibition against murder is a cultural reason, if you take a long view.

    13. Re:Assessment of questions... by hitchhacker · · Score: 1


      Prohibition against murder is a cultural reason, if you take a long view.

      murder? who is forcing someone to do drugs?
      If you have a case, then it would be suicide.
      If it's suicide, then show me ONE case where someone has died strictly because of marijuana.


      I would argue that most people don't overdose on drugs. They take an unknown dose of drugs. Any idea why they would be taking an unknown amount? because it's ILLEGAL. A pinch of caffeine is deadly, yet you don't see little kids croaking after their coca cola intake. Get over it, people have different cultures than yours. If it's truely detrimental, then nature should work itself out right?

      -metric

    14. Re:Assessment of questions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yes. The culture of the United States of America. The odds are very good that you picked up your habit while Marijuana was still very much illegal in the United States, so if you cultivated a dependency on an illegal activity, that's your own fault.

      If you immigrated, it's generally not considered polite to come here and bitch about the rules. It looks a little hypocritical, considering how much the rest of the world hates it when Americans do it.

    15. Re:Assessment of questions... by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      Odd, the US is one the countries with the highest procentage of marijuana smokers. I would say it is definitely are part of your culture.

  114. Re:18-35 #8 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the posts are the higest moderated and there is more than one "legalize it" post in the top then it seems like it must be a major qustion on a lot of peoples minds.

    btw legalize it

  115. Near Duplicate. by jd · · Score: 1

    #'s 38 and 39 are essentially the same. They would be better if rolled into one question, as there are some aspects to each not covered in the other.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  116. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS (MPDOWN) by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

    you seem to have missed the ILLEGAL part of 'illegal immigrants'

  117. Re:18-35 #37 PERSONAL - Dupe by aggieben · · Score: 1

    I know it's lame to reply to yourself, but I thought of a potential replacement.

    "Consider for a moment your life outside the scope of the presidency. In other words, Senator Kerry should consider this as though he wasn't running for the presidency and had no plans to, and President Bush should consider this as though he were not the president anymore. What is life about? What makes you tick; what is most important?"

    --
    Don't become a regular here, you will become retarded. -- Yoda the Retard
  118. For Kerry: Opinion on Bush=Hitler comparisons by Nova+Express · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Dear Senator Kerry,
    In several resent speeches, you have complained about what you term "vicious, unfair, partisan" attacks on your character from supporters of President Bush. In light of that, I was wondering what you thought of the many comparisons made by liberals of President Bush to Adolf Hitler. I am not speaking here of the usual Internet kooks and yahoos, but of several national figures such as cartoonist Ted Rall, billionaire currency trader George Soros, and the liberal activist group MoveOn.org. Do you feel these comparisons are valid? If not, do you feel that they are within the realm of "respectable" political opinion? If not, what statements have you or your running mate made to condemn or discourage such statements?

    --
    Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)

    http://www.lawrenceperson.com/

    1. Re:For Kerry: Opinion on Bush=Hitler comparisons by EnronHaliburton2004 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I like how you casually ignore the Bush campaign video showing John Kerry, Prominant Democrats and Hitler.

      Yes, the video was from the "Bush in 30 seconds" contest sponsored by MoveOn (and was pulled), but from the Bush campaign video it was pretty clear that Bush was trying to make a connection between screaming Gore, screaming Moore and screaming Kerry with a screaming Hitler.

      "Dear President Bush, what do you think about people who use fear as a demotivator campaign strategy?"

    2. Re:For Kerry: Opinion on Bush=Hitler comparisons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Godwin's Law

    3. Re:For Kerry: Opinion on Bush=Hitler comparisons by TheMCP · · Score: 1

      We did the submission of questions thing the other day, you're a little late.

      Kerry would probably be smart enought to point out the Bush campaign ad that compared him (Kerry) to Hitler.

    4. Re:For Kerry: Opinion on Bush=Hitler comparisons by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

      Uh, because 9/11 was an extremely obvious parallel to the Reichstag Fire and because Ashcroft is more authoritarian than than any AG that we've had for a while. You'd only expect Nazi comparisons to pop up.

  119. So many loaded questions and logical fallacies... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So few mod points to anything about it.

  120. The last question to ask by teamhasnoi · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Why won't you answer any of the fucking questions?

    Thousands of people poured over the wording, grammar, and nature of these questions, making them as simple and clear as possible, yet both of you won't ANSWER THEM.

    We don't want to hear you talk about unrelated crap that has nothing to do with the questions in front of you, we don't want a rambling missive about the failings of your opponent(s), we don't want a speech riddled with prewritten soundbites. We want answers.

    When will we get simple, clear answers?

    1. Re:The last question to ask by Tirinal · · Score: 1

      Because it doesn't matter how intensely people believe in your dogma; it only matters that more people believe in the faith you espouse than that of the other guy. The sole aim of every politician is to have 51% of the population loathe him slightly less than they loathe his contestant, which is why ambiguously patriotic statements that say nothing whatsoever are a much safer course than actually being, you know, opinionated. The more things you firmly believe in, the more people you estrange. This is further exacerbated by the fact that we have a dual-party system ("don't blame me, I voted for Kodos").

      In short: politics are dumb, but at least this way the government mirrors the type of people it serves. Democracy by majority. Welcome to America.

      --
      ~Tirinal
    2. Re:The last question to ask by kraada · · Score: 5, Funny

      Actually, if you are carefully introspective of those answers which were answered by myself and my opponent, you will notice that he answered the questions far less directly than I.

      I answered the questions you gave me directly, speaking to the concerns of the American people, who, I believe, should vote for me as their candidate. If you look at my record it is clear that I represent all that is good in the world, and will lead us into a stronger nation is this new, post-9/11 world.

      The questions posed showed what a diverse and complex world we live in these days. As a result, you should vote for me, because I am best able to cope with these new issues as we move further into the 21st century.

      Sincerely,

      Either Candidate.

    3. Re:The last question to ask by l0ungeb0y · · Score: 1

      When will we get simple, clear answers?

      Because the answer is never simple and the course of action never clear. Why? Because greed, self interest and preservation of power is the true governer of all nations.

      The retirement of the Assualt Weapons Ban is as clear an example as you can get. After the bill became law the well monied minority (the NRA) put their dollars to work not in the lobies, but against the Democratic Congressmen who voted for the ban. The result? The Democrats lost the House majority for the first time in 40 years. So when it came to voting on a renewal, our esteemed and wise President boldly proclaimed that he would support an extension if it passed Congress. Of course he said this with the knowledge that the Democratic minority muchless the Republican majority would touch the issue with a 10 foot pole.

      Why?
      Greed -- voting for it would gaurantee no NRA money for their campaign coffers
      Self interest -- voting for it would likely put their seat in the house in jeopardy
      Preservation of Power -- losing their seat would weaken their parties power in the House and jeopardize the party from being able to pass their agendas and block their opponents agendas.

      You see, by Bush's stating he would support it if passed was a diplomatic way of saying "Yeah right, like that's gonna happen. But if hell does freeze over, it's got my full support." So he can swing some of the anti-gun groups vote while laughing it up with the NRA who contribute to his cause. Maybe now you understand Bush's 2000 election platform of "compassionate conservative"

      Now take the above and apply it back to your post.
      A candidate must be able to present a "possible course of action" but mince it in such a way to make it appealing across the board and keeping the wording as broad as possible so he's able to compromise on the issue in the event he actually is able to push that agenda. After all, no agenda get's pushed without major concessions to the opposition. So you see, it's not currently possible for a politician to be clear and simple -- the reality of washington would never allow for it.

      Ohhh and In case you didn't already know, unemployed presidential speech writers ghost write horroscopes and fortune cookies to make rent.

    4. Re:The last question to ask by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The sole aim of every politician is to have 51% of the population loathe him slightly less than they loathe his contestant, which is why ambiguously patriotic statements that say nothing whatsoever are a much safer course than actually being, you know, opinionated.

      Don't you mean 51% of the electoral voters (or 51% of the Supreme Court, if needed)...

    5. Re:The last question to ask by teamhasnoi · · Score: 1

      10 GOTO 20
      20 GOTO 10
      30 PRINT "Insightful Answer!":END

    6. Re:The last question to ask by brett42 · · Score: 1

      Yes, you need 4.59 Supreme Court Justices to steal the Presidency.

    7. Re:The last question to ask by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or:

      Thank you both very much for your time, but before we go there is just one more question, but don't worry after all those heavy hitter we thought we'd keep it simple and give you a multiple choice. Were all of your answers to the previous questions vague, inane, and dumbed-down because:
      a) you believe your constituents to be lacking in the mental faculties to understand actual explantions for why decisions are made since you don't either.
      b) you failed to comprehend the question, the topic, and menu that was handed to you at breakfast.
      or,
      c) expressing an actual viewpoint on any topic would give a voter a reason to vote or not vote for a candidate based on something other than your hair, your wife, your dog, your kids, or your smile or anything else that can be touched up for television cameras and posters.

      Thanks again to you both for this wonderful debate, brought you by Coca-Cola, Shell, Microsoft, and Nike. Goodnight

    8. Re:The last question to ask by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like it was said on the Daily Show, "How about you take that long ass answer, and put it in a nutshell like I asked you to."

  121. Presidential Character by FunnyLookinHat · · Score: 1

    President Bush and Senator Kerry, today's presidential elections focus heavily on the hot topics or issues which, honestly, tend to give voters a very good picture of how a candidate will move issues in the government. But what the Americans of today see little of is the character of a man who is running for their president. What do you think, if any, is the importance of character of the President of the United States?

  122. Add language issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Where do you stand on English as the national language?

  123. Is it me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... or do I know *exactly* what the answers will be for each of these questions?

    Maybe I've been watching too much Hardball, but I feel like I can almost *hear* Bush and Kerry answering these questions with pre-packaged soundbites.

  124. Re:WTF? What about the national debt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Okay. No one is ever paying that debt. Forget about it. It's not something which is even considerable anymore, we've entered an irreversible debt cycle.

  125. Re:So many loaded questions and logical fallacies. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Submit a patch, dumbass.

    What is a mod point going to do? Hide the problem?

    Correct the 'loaded questions and logical fallacies' or stop your whining, bitch.

  126. Republicans say that Liberals will ban the Bible. by xx_chris · · Score: 1

    sort of President Bush,

    your campaign admitted to "Mailing Campaign Literature Saying Liberals Will Ban the Bible."
    Do you want to take this oppurtunity to apologize for your party actions?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/24/politics/campa ig n/24bible.html

    Republicans Admit Mailing Campaign Literature Saying Liberals Will Ban the Bible
    By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK

    Published: September 24, 2004

    The Republican Party acknowledged yesterday sending mass mailings to residents of two states warning that "liberals" seek to ban the Bible. It said the mailings were part of its effort to mobilize religious voters for President Bush.

    The mailings include images of the Bible labeled "banned" and of a gay marriage proposal labeled "allowed." A mailing to Arkansas residents warns: "This will be Arkansas if you don't vote." A similar mailing was sent to West Virginians.

    A liberal religious group, the Interfaith Alliance, circulated a copy of the Arkansas mailing to reporters yesterday to publicize it. "What they are doing is despicable,'' said Don Parker, a spokesman for the alliance. "They are playing on people's fears and emotions."

    In an e-mail message, Christine Iverson, a spokeswoman for the Republican National Committee, confirmed that the party had sent the mailings.

    "When the Massachusetts Supreme Court sanctioned same-sex marriage and people in other states realized they could be compelled to recognize those laws, same-sex marriage became an issue,'' Ms. Iverson said. "These same activist judges also want to remove the words 'under God' from the Pledge of Allegiance."

    The mailing is the latest evidence of the emphasis Republicans are putting on motivating conservative Christian voters to vote this fall. But as the appeals become public, they also risk alienating moderate and swing voters.

    An editorial on Sept. 22 in The Charleston Gazette in West Virginia, for example, asked, "Holy Moley! Who concocts this gibberish?"

    "Most Americans see morality more complexly," the editorial said. "Many think a higher morality is found in Christ's command to help the needy, prevent war and pursue other humanitarian goals. Churchgoers of this sort aren't likely to believe childish allegations that Democrats want to ban the Bible."

    In statement, Senator John Edwards, the Democratic vice-presidential nominee, said President Bush "should condemn the practice immediately and tell everyone associated with the campaign to never use tactics like this again."

    Matt Foreman, executive director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, called the mailings an ugly contrast to Mr. Bush's public statements. Although the president has called for a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage, he often emphasizes the need for tolerance as well.

    "The president takes more or less the high road and his henchman and allies on the right have been let loose to conduct these ugly, divisive smear campaigns," Mr. Foreman said. "It is wedge politics at its worst."

    In any event, the Bush campaign appears confident about its religious appeal.

    The mailing seeks to appeal to conservative evangelical Protestant pastors and political leaders who say they worry that legal rights for same-sex couples could lead to hate-crimes laws that could be applied against sermons of Bible passages criticizing homosexuality.

    Conservative Christian political commentators often cite the case of Ake Green, a minister in Sweden who was jailed in June for a month for a sermon denouncing gays as sinful.

    Mr. Parker, of the Interfaith Alliance, said, "I think it is laughable to think that someone could be arrested for reading out loud from the Bible.''

    But Richard Land, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, argued, "We have the First Amendment in this country which should protect churches, but there is no question that this is where some people want to go, that reading from the Bible could be hate speech."

    Still, Mr. Land questioned the assertion that Democrats might ban the whole Bible. "I wouldn't say it," he said. "I would think that is probably stretching it a bit far."

  127. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS (MPDOWN) by NarrMaster · · Score: 1

    Take the Maddox approach...Teh Funny

    --
    That's right. All your base.
  128. A LINK TO DISPLAY THE DAMN QUESTIONS by Alsee · · Score: 5, Informative

    Having trouble finding the actual questions amongst all the replies?
    CLICK THIS LINK for the proper Slashdot sorting to find the questions.

    -

    --
    - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    1. Re:A LINK TO DISPLAY THE DAMN QUESTIONS by Tatarize · · Score: 1

      President Bush, why do you suck total ass? Mr. Kerry, what have you done which shows leadership?

      --

      It is no longer uncommon to be uncommon.
  129. WTF??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What the hell? Stop bitching and smoke that shit already. If you want to make yourself slow-witted and if you like having marijuana-acne, knock yourself out, ho.

  130. CHARGING PRESIDENT WITH HIGH TREASON #1 question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    To the candidates in three parts:

    (I) President Clinton was dragged through impeachment charges, rightly, because there was evidence to suggest he lied during a trial. Despite this mess, and your side of the political fence, when a President violates the law, it seems serious enough that it warrants high attention.

    In that vein, do you think that: (a) lies by the President to start a war (e.g., purporting the existence of weapons of mass destruction), if done so with the purpose to deceive the public, warrant a charge of high-treason if substantiated, (b) would such a charge warrant the death penalty, and (c) should be an inquest for President Bush for such a charge of high treason? Why or why not?

    (II) Alternatively, if a President is grossly negligent in starting a war by relying on faulty intelligence, should he be culpable? Why or why not?

    (III) Finally, if the President did not lie about weapons of mass destruction, is there any other option but to deem that President as being anything but grossly negligent when it turns out he chose to rely on intelligence that has borne out to be false by the lack of existence of any weapons of mass destruction, and if so what is that alternative view?

    --On a side note, I wonder why no one is bring this up? Seems lies (falsified memos/intelligence) to start a war would be a bit more serious than lying about what intern you screwed (both are bad, but one is significantly worse if its true).

  131. 13-17! by izakage · · Score: 0

    See, this is how you can tell the youngun's from the oldies. At least I now know that I'm not talking to a bunch of teens living in their basements!

    ...Or not.

  132. Blaim Feminism's double standard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A few quick comments:

    1) Good feminists have abortions.

    2) This desire NOT to work is the main reason women are rumoured to earn 0.70 on the dollar.

    3) We have ~8 billion (with a B) people in the world, I am not encouraging you to have anymore.

    4) As a small buisness owner, pass this and I'll think long and hard before hiring a women of child bearing age. Of course, I'll officially turn you down for some other reason. (give me credit for knowing how to play the game.)
    I already have a women that takes 1 maternity leave per year for the last 3 years (3 kids). The energy expended in finding her a temp. replacement and reorganizing her duties has me trying to find ways to permently replace her with minimum legal risk.

    5) Maybe the US is the "undisputed world leader" (a claim I beat I could dispute) beacuse it doesn't spend money on issues like this.

    6) I thought women wanted equality. How is giving the mother time off equal treatment to the men who don't get time off? Oh, I forgot. It is the National Organization of WOMEN, not the National Organization for EQUALITY. Men are just sperm donors with wallets to them. If you rapist, murdering men would just give us your DNA and money and we'll live 10-15 years longer than you.

    BTW, if you want equal treatment, men should be able to disown (i.e no child support) a kid during the man amount of time a women has the legal right to unilaterally decide on an abortion.

    Of course, I could be wrong. Or maybe I am right, just not politically correct.

    1. Re:Blaim Feminism's double standard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod parent the motherfuck up. Great points.

    2. Re:Blaim Feminism's double standard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't see why there couldn't be "paternity leave" for men. As long as *both* parents aren't taking that time off for their kids, I don't see why that matters. Or maybe alternating week on/week off so the kid gets both parents.

    3. Re:Blaim Feminism's double standard by emmilliiee · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      I cannot believe someone actually modded this post up.

      1) Good feminists have abortions?! WTF is that supposed to mean? I mean, by this line of reasoning "Good men" should cut their balls off to avoid the inconvenience of impregnating anyone, and I certainly don't see you advocating that. Especially since congress has passed legislation to outlaw one of the safest forms of abortion, and for many women the procedure isn't even performed in their state, it's not an option available to even the most "good" of women.

      2) Desire not to work? Are you kidding me? I personally have to work harder at my job and at my schoolwork for anyone to take me seriously because of my gender, and I STILL get paid less. It's not a merit system that is enforcing that statistic, it's sexism. I don't want a family, I want a career, and I have to face every day the fact that my hard work will be marginalized because I don't have a penis like you do, and I'll get paid less for it. And it's certainly isn't because I don't want to work.

      3) Yes, I do agree that we shouldn't be encouraging more over population of the world, but if you were really concerned about this issue, you'd be much more worried about the Bush administration's funding cuts to Family Planning abroad to any organization that even mentions abortion as an option, regardless of the other services that they provide, instead of attacking women who have responsibly planned families they can support. (It takes two to tango, why aren't you going out and berating their men for forcing you to hire a temp?)

      4) You know, equal opportunity laws were enacted to protect women and minorities against those exact values. I guess it's good to know that I'm right when I feel like I'm getting hosed because of my gender.

      5) We spend TONS of money on this. Are you kidding me? You, as a small business owner have already bitched in this post about spending money on this topic.

      6) Women DO want equality. Heck yeah, I want to been seen as an equal in the workplace, and it's people like you that are holding us back. I don't think anyone would be opposed to men being offered the same right to a leave of absence for the birth of a child as women are afforded. But, as a small business owner, would you really be willing to shell out for paid paternity leave for all of those good young men you hired in place of women?

      You are totally wrong. I understand your anxiety on this issue as the dude with the pocketbook, but if those are truly your beliefs, you are fretting about the wrong issues. Paternity leave? HA! Support abortion, support family planning abroad.

    4. Re:Blaim Feminism's double standard by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

      At least most feminists can properly spell the word "blame".

      1) You have no idea what a feminist is.

      2) You're a chauvinist prick.

      3) Good point.

      4) I can't wait for you to get sued.

      5) Arguable. Ignored.

      6) It isn't. You fighting for paternity leave? Because my balls will be right behind you if you are. Somehow, I don't think you are.

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
      (I read with sigs off.)
  133. Popular Majorities by argoff · · Score: 1

    To both candidates, what would you do if a large popular majority wanted you to revoke the free speech rights of a mostly unpopular minority?

    What about if the popular media wants you to revoke the fair use rights of teens?

  134. Re:13 - 17 #5 PERSONAL ver 1.2b by teamhasnoi · · Score: 1
    As the President, you may sometime need to send Americans into war.

    Which immediate family member would you send into the midst of the most vicious fighting, and why?

  135. My question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    If you are elected president, what would you do to shut Roblimo up so as to allow others to get a word in edgewise on Slashdot?

    /Very good q's BTW, Roblimo!

  136. Why don't we kill them all? by kuwan · · Score: 1

    I think Israel has the right idea. Why don't we kill every leader, every member, every supporter of any such militant group or any group that uses terrorism as its tactic.

    Groups that use terror as their tactics need to be met with so much furor, so much destruction, and so much death that no other group would dare to follow in their footsteps.

    1. Re:Why don't we kill them all? by lowe0 · · Score: 1

      The problem with the counter-terrorism business is that all the dumb terrorists die fairly quickly, and they're a whole lot easier to catch or kill than the smart ones.

    2. Re:Why don't we kill them all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Targetting leaders for assassination, combined with the construction of the barrier (I won't call it a wall, because only 5% of it is an actual wall, and that's only in places that people like to snipe from and a physical wall is needed) has already resulted in a *drastic* reduction in suicide bombings and terrorist attacks.

    3. Re:Why don't we kill them all? by killjoe · · Score: 1

      Even if only 10% of the palestenians wanted their freedom bad anough to figh israel you'd have to kill over 300,000 people. Of course since virtually every single palestanian wants their own country and wants to end the occupation it would be more like killing 3 million people.

      OK so it's not as much as Hitler but it would make for rich irony though.

      --
      evil is as evil does
  137. Re:18-35 #13 CHILD ABUSE by strangel · · Score: 1

    this question sounds too emotional to be taken seriously. no useful information can be gained by asking the candidates this question.

  138. You've GOT to be kidding...mod parent down!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lets see...struggling economy, war in Iraq, "war" on terrorism, rapidly rising oil prices, poor public education systems, outsourcing white-collar jobs, environmental negligance, pissed off that you have to divide by 12 instead of 10.

    Which one of these doesn't belong? As an engineer, I hate inches and gallons as much as the next engineer, but come on. There are so many other important issues than this.

    Besides...if you solve our education problems and start getting more kids to understand even basic scientific principals, and expose them to SI, then this "problem" would just solve itself.

  139. Re:13 - 17 #9 IMMIGRATION/JOBS (MPDOWN) by Dasein · · Score: 1

    Nope. You missed the point. Most financial aid is provided/guaranteed by the US governement. Many of our institution are funded by the federal and local governments.

    Why is it better to give that money to an illegal immigrant than a US citizen?

    --
    You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake -- but you could be if you got off your ass.
  140. haha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    d00t

  141. Correlate with Question #8: Population Control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A few comments:

    1) The US is heavily in debt, I'd rather we pay our own bills before giving to charity.

    2) Question #8 was all concerned about populaiton control (~8 billion and ever rising). Well, if I increase the death rate, especially in countries that are perpetually in a state of civil war and genocide, doesn't that help the populaiton problem?
    Heartless but true.
    Actually, think about how amazing it is what we did with AIDS. It took 6,000 years to control syphillis. It took about 20 to control AIDS. I swaer to God AIDS treatment is the cure for the common cold. Majic Johnson got AIDS and I haven't seen him sneeze since then. In the cinivlized world AIDs is no longer a death sentence but a managable chronic desiease like diabetes. Plus we know what to do to not get AIDS.

    You know I get a little tired of being told how the US should NOT be the world's police force and we should stay home, but how we should still provide a utopia for everyone.
    So basically what you want is to hold the US to a double standard and blaim the US for whatever they, alternatly, do or do not do? That's mature.

    1. Re:Correlate with Question #8: Population Control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) The US is heavily in debt, I'd rather we pay our own bills before giving to charity.

      I guess the US is willing to spend money to kill people on the other side of the globe, though. It would be nice if at least the same amount could be spent to try to save people. Or at least a fraction of that, like the UN was promised.

    2. Re:Correlate with Question #8: Population Control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      control AIDS? CONTROL AIDS? Just because you're fucking neighbor doesn't have it or you feel pretty safe in wyoming or even NY or LA, but if your view can extend past where the TV shows you then maybe you'd notice that like 1 in 3 africans have HIV (i'm not quoting figures so if it's 1 in 4 shoot me) and who knows how many chinese 'cause their government won't tell anyone it's that scary. Sure there's cocktails that have controlled it so far (for those who can afford it) but it's early days. How many people who have HIV have died of natural causes without getting AIDS? I don't know either but that's because there hasn't been enough time to find out. The worst part about the modern media is there's so much information, things get forgotten about before they should. "Oh well, I haven't seen AIDS on the cover of the newspaper so I guess we've got it sorted out." Great attitude.

  142. Re:18-35 #21 GLBT - has to be more specific. by TheMCP · · Score: 1

    This is too unfocused and assumes that the candidates already undersand and accept that harm is caused. Bush would no doubt argue that banning gay marriage does not constitute discrimination, (pardon me a moment while I stick my finger down my throat,) and Kerry would argue that marriage is a state issue and none of the federal government's business.

    Instead, if you must ask about gay rights in the debate, ask about something specific, like how the candidates would relieve the suffering of American citizens who are in love with a non-citizen of the same gender, yet can't bring that person into the US because the federal government won't recognize marriages of gay couples which take place in Massachusetts.

  143. Re:CHARGING PRESIDENT WITH HIGH TREASON #1 questio by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pretty slanted question. On the other hand, lots of people whisper that Bush knew there were no WMD. If that's true, seems pretty much like treason to me to start a war by misinforming the public. It's probably just liberal bunk, but on the other hand seems important enough that someone should be looking at it.

  144. Heart Condition (OT) by OldMiner · · Score: 1
    >I am 15 and learning disabled because of a serious heart condition. I am having a difficult time in school.
    Could someone with medical training let me know how a heart condition affects your ability to learn? Unless it's either not pumping enough blood to the brain now or didn't pump enough blood to the brain early in life.

    My guesses: Easily fatigued, less energy, sleeps more then usual. Requirement to get up and move on a regular basis slowing productiveness. Risk of passing out regularly. Regular visits to the hospital due to emergencies small and large which take out a good chunk of time for learning.

    Implying the author is brain damaged is not exactly a classy move, especially since (s)he is likely reading this. And it doesn't really relate to the question either.

    Crud, I'm replying to a troll, aren't I?

    --
    You like splinters in your crotch? -Jon Caldara
    1. Re:Heart Condition (OT) by Jardine · · Score: 1

      My guesses: Easily fatigued, less energy, sleeps more then usual. Requirement to get up and move on a regular basis slowing productiveness. Risk of passing out regularly. Regular visits to the hospital due to emergencies small and large which take out a good chunk of time for learning.

      But how is being fatigued all the time a learning disability? I mean specifically a learning disability. A person with mononucleosis would have similar problems (except hospital visits) but I wouldn't consider them learning disabled.

      Unless the heart condition caused something to happen in the brain, the heart condition itself doesn't sound like it would stop the person from learning normally except they wouldn't be able to learn for long stretches of time. Maybe there's something else to heart conditions that I don't know about, that's why I asked the question.

  145. My thoughts exactly..... by strangel · · Score: 1

    You hit the nail on the head here.

  146. Why we have Electors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And this my friend is why the Founding Fathers used Electors.

    Between 1776 & 1787 the US has various forms of democracy (varied by state). It was a fucking disaster. Therefore, in 1787 when they got the present Consitution up and running, they tried to take a little bit of power out of the hands of "the mob".

    Also, this is why the US looks at the present state of the EU. The EU currently is a Confederacy. Something that was tried twice in teh US (pre-1787 & 1861's CSA) and failed. So, the US doesn't have much hope for Europe's confederacy.

    1. Re:Why we have Electors by ObitMan · · Score: 1

      The CSA wasn't given enough time to prove whether it was a viable solution.
      because it got invaded soon after it's inception.

      --
      Who run Barter Town?
  147. 2nd hand drinking? by Thinkit4 · · Score: 1

    Doesn't exist does it? And before you go to tobacco, that does not cause changes in mental function the way weed does.

    --
    -I am an elective eunuch.
    1. Re:2nd hand drinking? by tooba · · Score: 2, Informative

      You're right, tobacco doesnt cause changes the same way pot does. It causes changes the way nicotine does. Those changes happen to be very addictive, unlike marijuana. Marijuana does not cause permanent changes in brain chemistry and cannot cause brain damage like alcohol can. Additionally, it has positive medical uses and can replace some drugs that have harmful side effects.

    2. Re:2nd hand drinking? by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Ha! You really think you could get stoned on second-hand marijuana smoke? Sorry, that's just ridiculous. The concentration of smoke to make that possible would have to be *huge*! Moreover, THC is a highly unstable chemical and would break down in the atmosphere relatively quickly.

  148. Immigration Laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Recently I had to leave the US after working and studying there for 7 years. This was (to my surprise) due to the fact that I lost my job, and was no longer welcome in the land of the free.

    What changes do you plan to implement in this wonderful country that will provide some safety to those law abiding, tax-paying, non-permanent alien residents (a/k/a non-green card, H1B holders, "not marrying so I can stay" foreigners, etc)?

    Furthermore, if you were forced to leave America right now, would you think it is fair to leave behind every friendship you have made during the last 7 years (even thought you have never broken any immigration or otherwise law)?

  149. Gateway Drugs? Tobacco and Alcohol. by billstewart · · Score: 2, Interesting
    "Gateway Drugs" are such a tired bogus line. If you want a statistically significant "gateway drug", try tobacco and alcohol. Almost anybody who's tried illegal drugs has also tried both first (imagine a heroin user saying "Booze? No, that's bad for you, I'd never try that!"), and while some kids may find it easier to _buy_ illegal drugs than to buy booze in a store, it's still easy for them to find enough alcohol and tobacco to decide if they like it. Some kids try booze and like getting wasted, and look for more wastage drugs; some kids try tobacco and like looking cool, feeling edgy but calm and getting really cranky when you need more, and annoying people around them with their behavior, and go looking for speed and coke.

    For one of my friends, though, marijuana was a gateway drug. After the first time he got stoned, he said "Wow! They really LIED to me about pot! I wonder what ELSE they lied to me about?" and headed off to try all the other things they'd told him were Bad, many of which he also liked, though a few of them he decided really _were_ bad.

    And while we're at it, what message would it send to our kids? We might send the message that when _adults_ are wrong about things, they admit it and change their minds, or we might send the message that when adults are wrong, we tell kids that they have to do what we say Because We Said It and we'll make up whatever bogus lies will scare them into believing us, just like we do about so many other things.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  150. Bob Barker to the rescue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously, don't we have more important things to worry about?

    I mean how fucking pampered is your life that your number 1 concern is animal rights? That is so high up the hierarchy of needs, I just can't imagine it.

    I am still working on the shelter (mortage), health (retirement funds) stage of things.

    Maybe Daddy doesn't understand your animal rights bit because he's too worried about making money to write a check for your college apartment.

  151. Re:18-35 #37 PERSONAL - Dupe by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

    That's just a Larry King softball. They're both going to answer something smarmy about family, God, and freedom.

    Or perhaps hot girl-on-girl action.

    --
    We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
  152. How to vote for a question? by Gnpatton · · Score: 0

    I'm sorry but I dont understand how I am suppost to vote (moderate) a question that I like. Can someone please explain? Thank you. (ps i tried searching)

  153. Proof that Mod system broken. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That this question (unlike any of the other 50 that I've read so far, gets Modded as Redundant is proof positive that the Mod system is broken.

    Joseph Mother Fucker of Christ, the question may be from the political right, but it isn't "Redundant."

    How about a Mod option called "Not PC"?
    For a forum that bitchs a lot about Freedom of Speach there seems to be a lot of censoring going on around here.

  154. Trade prisoners by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If it were possible, Would you trade custody of Saddam for Osama?

  155. "Failure" depends on your Objectives by billstewart · · Score: 1
    • Just because the drug policies turn lots of users into criminals,
    • and make users spend lots of money for inherently cheap products, ruining the economic lives of many and leading some into crime, especially blacks and Mexicans who can't afford to buy expensive dope on their wages,
    • and create strong profit incentives for people to go into the drug business,
    • and teach kids that drug dealing and joining gangs can make them rich and that going to jail is normal,
    • and require far more police to fight them, and more prisons to put users and sellers in,
    • and a much bigger government to hire all the police and prison guards,
    • and require armies to go attack countries in Latin America which grow drugs,
    • and armies to attack terrorists and resistance armies who are funded by drug profits,
    • and much bigger government to hire all the armies,
    • and creates huge corruption in drug-producing countries and drug consuming cities' police forces,
    • and lets politicians claim that they need ever-increasing power to stop all these problems,
    doesn't mean that Prohibition is a Failure! It just depends on what you want for society.... Think of it as Evolution in Action.
    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    1. Re:"Failure" depends on your Objectives by untaken_name · · Score: 1

      Well said. You're my new Internet hero, billstewart.
      Down with the War on Smoke and Mirrors!

    2. Re:"Failure" depends on your Objectives by MethylPhreak · · Score: 1

      Well sorry bud, but what YOU want ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN. Get real, it isn't going away, no matter how much you fight it.

    3. Re:"Failure" depends on your Objectives by MethylPhreak · · Score: 1

      Dude, my bad, totally my bad. I COMPLETELY misread your shit. Hope you overlook my little oversight :)

  156. Kerry is catholic, not christian... by SuperBanana · · Score: 1
    Democratic candidate John Kerry is also a Christian.

    Not last time I checked. In fact, the Catholic church came very close to refusing to allow him to attend mass because he isn't rabidly pro-life.

    Funny how the catholic church wants to be very much in control of the state. Oh well. At least it's now the second largest non-profit org in the world(1st is harvard, oh boy).

    1. Re:Kerry is catholic, not christian... by bolthole · · Score: 1

      How does [the catholic church reprimanding someone who claims to be a follower of it, not following catholic doctrine] equal "the catholic church wants to be very much in control of the state" ?

      The catholic church is attempting to show equal enforcement of its rules, by insisting that someone who claims to be a member, stick to the actual rules that members of the catholic church are supposed to follow. If they didnt, they'd be hyppocrites. But since they do, it's just Kerry that's a Hyppocrit.

      (It's ludicrous for him to claim he is a catholic. His PARENTS were catholic, but he is anything but. For many reasons, but in this subtopic, because he is openly pro-abortion. It's one thing to not be "strongly pro-life". But to be vocally AGAINST it, is to disqualify yourself from being a Catholic. Just as being for "no-fault divorce" would, for example.)

    2. Re:Kerry is catholic, not christian... by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      But since they do,

      No they don't. I'm pretty sure that if an excommunication had been issued, I've have seen it in the headlines.

      It's ludicrous for him to claim he is a catholic. His PARENTS were catholic, but he is anything but.

      He is a Catholic. Hypocracy doesn't disqualify you from membership in any group, especially when the group is based on contradictory faith. He says he is, he's got at least 1 priest who says he is, and the Pope hasn't issued any directive to the contrary... John Kerry is a Catholic.

      If you wanted to be strict about it, George W Bush isn't a Christian... he's strongly in favor of both defensive war and punititive killing, and is prideful and highly judgemental. All those things go against the core of Christian belief.

    3. Re:Kerry is catholic, not christian... by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      In fact, the Catholic church came very close to refusing to allow him to attend mass because he isn't rabidly pro-life.

      So, in other words, they let him attend mass?

      And adding the word "rabidly" is pretty inflamatory... is that what the press release from the church said? So they made a distinction between pro-life and rabidly pro-life? At least the church has one position and maintains it.

      Funny how the catholic church wants to be very much in control of the state.

      That may be true, but it's more accurate to say that the catholic church has a doctrine that they feel all catholics should follow, and if they don't they shouldn't consider themselves catholic.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    4. Re:Kerry is catholic, not christian... by ynohoo · · Score: 1

      haha, you can never escape the Catholic church. You may call yourself a Bhuddist, but to them you are still a lapsed Catholic. The same applies to all you so-called Protestants - you are ALL just lapsed Catholics.

      Not so different from the Mormans baptising all dead people...

    5. Re:Kerry is catholic, not christian... by Politburo · · Score: 1

      How does [the catholic church reprimanding someone who claims to be a follower of it, not following catholic doctrine] equal "the catholic church wants to be very much in control of the state" ?

      Because they do so for reasons that are obviously political. You don't see the Catholic Church up in arms about joe churchgoer who happens to be pro-choice, do you? It's odd that they pick out Democratic politicians, such as Kerry and NJ Governor Jim McGreevey, to make examples of, isn't it?

      The McGreevey thing isn't related to his extra-marital affair. The church made a stink about his pro-choice beliefs, as with Kerry, and in response, he said that he would no longer take communion at mass (iirc).

  157. A question from outside the US by howman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I would love to hear what they answer to "What did the people of the United States ever do to you that they deserve to be treated in the way they have over the last 4 years?"
    Granted that would be directed at Bush, but one could ask Kerry something along the same lines, "What are you going to do to prove you don't despise the people who vote you into power?"

    --
    flinging poop since 1969
  158. Re:WTF? What about the national debt? by Alsee · · Score: 0, Troll

    No one is ever paying that debt. Forget about it. It's not something which is even considerable anymore, we've entered an irreversible debt cycle.

    Nonsense.

    Soaring national debt is directly linked to Regan, Bush, and Bush. Under every other president since World War II the debt has been going down, at least in relation to gross national product. And that includes Clinton from 1996 to 2000. It is clearly not "irreversible", it is mainly an issue of getting a president who isn't gung-ho for running up the debt. It doesn't take a crystal ball to see that Bush is going to continue his policy of whiping out the national credit card and running up the bill even further.

    -

    --
    - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  159. MOD UP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good point. The Senate is distributed to give each state a fair vote. This means that laws that are passed are not based on popular vote. But this is reasonable so that small states aren't unfairly discriminated against. Since the President has a duty to protect the small states as well as the large I think the question shouldn't be why a President can be elected without the popular vote but why each state doesn't get 8 electoral college votes (4 for each senator) to make a balance that protects the small states.

    1. Re:MOD UP by polecat_redux · · Score: 1, Insightful

      How about this: why, in the communication age, do we still have what basically amounts to a fuedal system of government? Does there really need to be a distinction between state and federal legislation anymore? It may have made sense 100 years ago, but modern technology seems to have seen to it that the logistics of long-distance rulership are now mostly trivial.

    2. Re:MOD UP by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 3, Insightful
      "Feudal system?" Show me a serf legally bound to the estate he was born on and I'll believe you.

      Perhaps what you're trying to say is that the States as political units are obsolete. I disagree: small political units are the essence of self-determination. Large, monolithic governments cannot make allowances for local conditions or the local will of the people; this was part of the reason for the failure of the Soviet Union. In any event, this would be a draconian change to our system necessitating a virtual rewrite of the Consitution. I doubt you'll find much support for such an undertaking.

      You seem to be laboring under the assumption that the electoral college was put into place because a direct popular vote would have been impractical. That had nothing to do with it at all. See my reply to an earlier post in this thread for a link to the Federalist Paper discussing Presidential elections.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    3. Re:MOD UP by polecat_redux · · Score: 1

      Well, the concept of distribution and delegation of power that permeated the feudal system I believe still exists in the US government. As you pointed out, "Large, monolithic governments cannot make allowances for local conditions or the local will of the people". Is that really much different than a system whereby a knight oversees a specific portion of land and chooses for himself in which way he would like to enforce the law of his king - whether he should decide to bend the rules and show mercy to his servants or strictly obey the laws under which he is commissioned? The two systems, IMO, seem strikingly similar.

      However, I do see your point. If the federal government were to try to provide legislation for every circumstance in every location across the country, our laws would be even more of a tangled mess than they are now.

    4. Re:MOD UP by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You seem to be laboring under the assumption that the electoral college was put into place because a direct popular vote would have been impractical. That had nothing to do with it at all

      Funny, because that's exactly what the Federalist Papers are all about. The majority of the text is spent discussing the trustworthiness of the electors, and how they will be chosen to represent neither their personal interests, nor those of a monied club or foreign empire.

      Since your claims about the contents of that document are so at-odds against the actual text you linked to, prehaps you'd care to paste in a few of the bits that shore up your position?

      (And just to make it more of a challenge, you're not allowed to choose sentences beginning with the word "Talents". I've already read that one line, and it's insufficient)

    5. Re:MOD UP by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      If the federal government were to try to provide legislation for every circumstance in every location across the country

      You sure about that? Do you really think that having one single law against wiretapping (for example) would be more messy than 53 separate laws*, with different penalties and even different definitions of what a "wiretap" is? And remember, some states might not even outlaw it at all. (Then multiply the complexity to 52*52 if you're wiretapping an inter-state message...)

      There's also a question of fairness. There's nothing magical about state boundaries that says it's OK to possess recreational fireworks on one side, and reckless endangerment to innocent lives on the other. Given that some laws shouldn't be universally applicable, it'd still be possible to turn them on and off without relying on state boundaries. We do it with speed limits...

      * Yes, I said 53, not 50. There's also DC, Puerto Rico, Indian Reservations, and other places outside state jurisdiction that still need laws.

    6. Re:MOD UP by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1
      You've either misunderstood my point or polecat's. He was talking about "the communication age" suggesting that the division into smaller political units is an artifact strictly of the difficulty of governing over long distances, and that with rapid travel and instant communications they're now obsolete. I pointed out (since Presidential elections are what is on-topic for this thread) that in this particular case that wasn't a consideration at all. Since you seem to agree with this, I'm afraid I don't see your point.

      And you don't get to tell people what they can and cannot say. That's a very childish attitude.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    7. Re:MOD UP by flyneye · · Score: 1

      Of course when you consider that the government had a managable role before it gave itself extended power and overstepped its bounds,you realize we had a good thing going.
      The fed regulated interstate commerce,lay tarriffs on imports to support itself(thats right folks,NO TAXES on citizens),ran a post office and saw to the protection of OUR borders.And that was ALL,everything else was given to the several states to run themselves,locally.
      The federal government has NO Business doing anything that isnt constitutionally given it to do.period.Anything over and above that has caused endless trouble since.
      So.....Would the affable,interchangable Bush n Kerry be willing to do the right thing and delete governments illegal participation?
      Probably not seeing as how they aren't good libertarians,politicians or human beings and really don't care about anyone but themselves.
      hmmph.... mod that one up if youve any testes.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
  160. Whoops! by Alsee · · Score: 1

    Whoops, I forgot to preview :(

    The word "Nonsense" was supposed to be a link to this debt graph for evidence.

    -

    --
    - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  161. Re:Gateway Drugs? Tobacco and Alcohol. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So what are you saying? We should continue an incorrect policy because admitting that we were incorrect might confuse our kids?

    The issue of gateway drugs is not the number of people who try them as well as more dangerous drugs. The issue is how many people would not try more dangerous drugs if they did not try the gateway drugs. The issue is causality, not correlation.

  162. Question needs reworded by kollivier · · Score: 1

    Sounds a bit childish and I think the candidates could easily find something good to say about each other. They don't because they're trying to differentiate themselves, not show what a great guy their candidate is.

    Not to mention the "when" in that question really should be "if". ;-)

    How about this instead?

    "I am getting very frustrated and disappointed by the continued use of negative advertising in political advertising campaigns. I also feel that a campaign ad cannot truly explain a candidate's position on social security, health care, the environment, or terrorism in the course of 30-60 seconds. Yet this is probably the form of advertising that reaches the most voters. How effective do you think media advertising is in conveying your message, and what if anything do you think needs to be reformed about political advertising campaigns?"

    A second question, either for the candidates or for anyone here who may know the answer: "Also, is there any independent source where I can find comparisons of your various stances on issues to objectively weigh the differences from an objective viewpoint?"

  163. Questions for Bush by Lightning+Hopkins · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This question will never make it to the President, but I'd like to know how he responds to the arguments against the Iraq invasion presented by Brent Scowcroft in 2002 (http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.h tml?id=110002133)
    Or George Bush Senior's statement in 1998 that invading Iraq would have "incalculable human and political costs" (http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/gulfwar.asp ) He also said "Whose life would be on my hands as the commander-in-chief because I, unilaterally, went beyond the international law, went beyond the stated mission, and said we're going to show our macho?" he asked. "We're going into Baghdad. We're going to be an occupying power -- America in an Arab land -- with no allies at our side. It would have been disastrous. We don't gain the size of our victory by how many innocent kids running away -- even though they're bad guys -- that we can slaughter. ... We're American soldiers; we don't do business that way." (http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/1999/03/a19990303bus h.htm)
    Or Dick Cheney's assessment in 1991 (http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/pubs/soref/che ney.htm)in which he said that "I think the proposition of going to Baghdad is fallacious," that invading would get the U.S. "bogged down in a quagmire," and that "Saddam Hussein's offensive military capability, his capacity to threaten his neighbors, has been virtually eliminated."
    I want to know how the President (or anyone else, really) can reconcile the 2003 invasion of Iraq with these pronouncements. Obviously the situation has changed over the years, but it clearly has not changed enough to prevent the situation that Cheney described.

    --
    Eh?
    1. Re:Questions for Bush by Lightning+Hopkins · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah, Brent Scowcroft was George HW Bush's National Security Advisor. Forgot to mention that.

      --
      Eh?
    2. Re:Questions for Bush by Brandonski · · Score: 2, Informative

      President Bush claims to be a Christian and named Jesus as his favorite political philosopher at the December 13 Republican debate in Des Moines. Without going too far into, "What part of "Thou shalt not kill, didn't you understand?" My question to G.W. is, "If tomorrow, St. Peter asked you wht you invaded Iraq. How would you answer? You realize that political double-speak and half truths in this forum will land you in a very warm place for the rest of eternity".

    3. Re:Questions for Bush by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably the same way Kerry would respond to the question of how he resolves killing in a war w/ being a Catholic.

      There is more wiggle room there than you'd think.

  164. Great question. MOD UP PLEASE by Kohath · · Score: 0, Troll

    This is one of the best questions.

    Let me restate it:

    My elected representatives enact laws based on popular opinion. Unelected judges then overturn, rewrite, or recreate those laws -- often based on nothing more than their own political or social agendas. Under this system, what's the point of voting? Do you have a plan to curb the abuse-of-power of the unelected judiciary?

    Absolutely excellent question.

  165. Re:18-35 #8 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Better yet, why is marijuana illegal at all? If people have the right to drink alcohol. Alcohol, gets you drunk, which impairs your motor skills, decision making skills, and has other various effects on various people. (Sad drunks, happy drunks, angry drunks, i-love-you-man drunks, etc.) So why is the consumption of marijuana also illegal when it has many of the same effects (if not better, such as relaxing and medically beneficial)? Either criminalize alcohol, or legalize marijuana.

  166. Re:#11 - GOOD QUESTION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The skill-specific draft would target computer techs and people skilled in foriegn languages (e.g. arabic).

  167. The concept of a draft is illegal by KalvinB · · Score: 1

    Only the democrates are putting bills out on the issue and it's going nowhere. Any time I see anyone mention the draft it just screams ignorant scare tactic. I'd really like to know what the dems are smoking that they can even pretend to threaten people with this issue. Only the democrates are claiming Bush is planning to initiate a draft and yet only the democrates have crafted bills to initiate it which the republicans aren't giving the time of day to.

    After Vietnam the country came to it's senses and realized that you can't force somebody to fight for their country. That was a "small part" of how we became a country in the first place. You have a right to not have to put your neck on the line for your country if you don't believe a cause is worth fighting.

    It's called a "conscientious objector" back when there was a draft. Not everyone who got out of the draft fled the country. Many "COed" their way out of the war. Even if there were a draft (which there won't because it's been found wrong on so many levels) you can object to the war and go home.

    It really is a shame that the dems have stooped to this scare tactic to try to get people to stop supporting the war on Iraq.

    Not everybody who supports any war, fights in it. And there's nothing wrong with that no matter how many liberals scream otherwise. It's idiotic to assume that you can't support anything dangerous if you don't put your neck on the line yourself. If someone wants to put their neck on the line for a cause (even dangerous sports) then they need supporters of all types. Even those who are sitting in safety. It's good to know there are people who can't do what you do, who appreciate what you do for them.

    Ben

    1. Re:The concept of a draft is illegal by stewby18 · · Score: 1

      Not everybody who supports any war, fights in it. And there's nothing wrong with that no matter how many liberals scream otherwise. It's idiotic to assume that you can't support anything dangerous if you don't put your neck on the line yourself.

      Clearly people can support something without putting their neck on the line. But in the case of war, there are compelling arguments that they shouldn't. Ignoring other issues for a moment, what's illogical about saying that people shouldn't have a right to say, "This is important enough to me that I think a bunch of people I've never met should be sent to die while I sit at home risk-free"? Wouldn't it be nice if people had to really weigh the importance of a war to them before saying "Invade the suckers, it won't hurt me!" in the next opinion poll?

      Comparing soldiers to practitioners of extreme sports is nonsensical. Unlike soldiers, athletes aren't likely to suddenly be confronted with a sporting event that they might be morally opposed to. If you want to, say, jump a bunch of flaming trucks on a motorcycle, you can pretty much expect that's what you'll be doing. Soldiers who signed up to make the country safer might find themselves being shipped out to fight for lower oil prices.

  168. Re:Great question. MOD UP PLEASE by Page7 · · Score: 1

    no its not. asking the candidates whether or not they support a complete rewriting of the constitution is not a good question.

  169. oooooooh the yank flag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    heil america!

  170. Here's a good question: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Being that you are both corporate whores, could you just post your rates?

    That way, moveon would know how much money just to leave in a little brown bag, instead of trying to buy ad time, and maybe we can implement a bidding system, as I think that the Dems are getting underpaid for their efforts.

    After all, Fritz Hollings only needed $250,000 to convince him to promote legislation by Disney to lock up hardcore terrorists who would (gasp!) copy movies.

    With Cheney pulling down $2 million from Halliburton to win all those no-bid contracts, it shows that the parties maybe need more "bilateral commissions" to help design a minimum rate sheet.

    Oh yeah, reinstuting the draft would be your last mistake - whoever might win. You don't want to piss off the slashdot crowd with a "special skills draft" for the technical elite. Not if you like little things like the Internet working.

  171. Damn, I wish I had mod points. by EnderWiggin99 · · Score: 1

    GREAT post!

  172. Re:CHARGING PRESIDENT WITH HIGH TREASON #1 questio by meta-monkey · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The reason no one brings this up is because there were no lies told by President Bush. If you disagree, please cite, with sources a single lie told by President Bush. Please note that in order for something to be a lie it must be an untruth deliberatly told, not something believed at the time that later turned out to be false.

    --
    We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
  173. Crack Addiction vs. Tobacco and Alcohol Addiction by billstewart · · Score: 2, Interesting
    According to a speech President Bush #1 in ~1990, 7/8 of cocaine users aren't addicts, just occasional users - compare this to tobacco, where ~95% of users are addicts. (He didn't realize that was what his figures meant, but that's what they meant.) Somehow America survived when 1/2 of the adult population used to be tobacco addicts and are still caffeine addicts today. More like 10% are alcoholics, but in spite of alcohol being universally available, most of your friends aren't homeless winos, even if they're alcoholics. Crack is a bit more addictive than snorting regular coke, but one of the main reasons people use it is that it's a cheaper high and regular coke is hard to get in some communities. Heroin addiction is about as dangerous as tobacco addiction, and cocaine addiction is 3-4 times safer, though if it's going to kill you it usually gets you young and quickly rather then slowly and painfully when you're old.

    According to Bush#1's Office of National Drug Control Policy strategy report, if cocaine and heroin were legal, you could be a cokehead for less than the price of a pack a day of cigarettes or a pint of cheap booze, and a junkie for under $1/day. So all this crime and violence associated with Drug Prohibition are because there's some compelling moral difference between being a junkie and being a drunkard, so important that we should criminalize users and let sellers attack each other on the streets with illegal assault weapons and let terrorists fund their organizations with opium-growing profits.

    But it's going to take a lot of social change before America relaxes enough to legalize cocaine and heroin - think about Marijuana legalization first. Sure, the first month it's legal a lot of us are going to go on a few weekend benders and get it out of our systems (:-), just like the first few weekends after The Noble Experiment of alcohol Prohibition was repealed. And too many stoned drivers will get in car accidents for a while, but mostly people will stay home and order pizza. And the first six months or a year's worth of demand will mostly be satisfied by former criminals who were professionally growing it, until the tobacco farmers take over and people start growing their own in their back yards. (Marijuana's already the largest agricultural cash crop in the tobacco-growing states, as well as in the West Coast lumber-growing regions, but that's mainly because the street price is as expensive per ounce as gold rather than as cheap per pound as tomatoes.)

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  174. Query for Bush and Kerry. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    SELECT FROM candidates WHERE lastname="Bush" or lastname="Kerry";

  175. Re:Gateway Drugs? Tobacco and Alcohol. by ShallowThroat · · Score: 1

    It would send the same message to kids as they are getting now. Some drugs are okay, others are not okay. If we move pot from the list of bad drugs to good drugs, it isn't going to make much of a difference. The problem is that kids shouldn't be taught that some drugs are good and others are bad, they should be taugh that some substances are dangerous, others are not, and others we just plain don't know. (Yes yes, in reality all substances have some degree of danger, but smoking weed isn't really as bad for you as doing lines of cocaine.) Kids should be taught stuff on what we know to be dangerous, and therefore why it is illegal, rather than just trying to force feed them what is good and what is bad.

    --
    The "Insert Quote Here" line is almost as predictable as inserting an actual quote.
  176. Statutes by Tony · · Score: 1

    No electoral college will (realistically) vote against the party which it was selected to vote for.

    Each state has its own set of regulations governing the composition and behavior of the electoral college. I *believe* the majority of the states mandate that the electoral college all cast their votes the way the state voted. (I'm too lazy to look up the exact numbers. You have google, too.)

    Colorado is currently considering a referendum to be voted on November 2nd which will distribute their 9 electoral college votes proportionally to their popular vote. I *believe* they will be the first state to distribute their votes to more than one Presidential candidate.

    In any case, this is a very complex issue, which may or may not have a reasonable solution. My opinion is overly-simple: the two-party system allows two essentially identical candidates to dominate the process, disallowing potentially more reasonable candidates from consideration. Until we come up with an alternative to the two-party system, the issue of how to determine a winner is moot.

    But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

    --
    Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
  177. States' Rights are an Important Republican Value by billstewart · · Score: 1
    ... at least when they're not flip-flopping, most Republican politicians say they believe most issues should be left to the states, and say that the Federal government should be small and let the states handle policy issues that are within their capabilities. (Of course, both Bushes have been in favor of the Feds getting increased power over education, because that seems to be politically popular, in spite of also wanting to talk about local responsibility.)

    The Constitution might arguably let the Feds regulate the Interstate Commerce aspects of drug policy, but local policy-making is something that Republican core doctrine says ought to take priority over Federal policy.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  178. Re: PLEASE PLEASE mod up! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If only we could mod up to +15 ... this is seriously a BIG one. Imagine: BUSH actually telling the truth and saying "Invading Iraq under the premises that they were responsible for funding 9/11 activities and that they have ACTIVE weapons of mass destruction (all proven to be deteriated chemicals left in soil by weapons inspectors) and that Iraq DID NOT really seek uranium from Niger.... PROVEN 4 months prior to his "State of the Union" speech to be a false claim by a special UN Security forensic team.

    Anyone remember GW's quote when running for office "We are not in the business of rebuilding other nations." ???

    Imagine Kerry telling the truth about how he wants to continue this war of oil under the idea that America did the right thing in INVADING A FOREIGN country because their ruler didn't like America and did what was LEGAL in his own country. Saddam was an evil man, but Iraq is a different legal system... always has been. It isn't America and will likely never be. Give it up America.

  179. I'm a Washington DC resident, you insensitive clod by aardwolf204 · · Score: 1

    I'm a Washington D.C. resident, you insensitive clod!

    --
    Im dreaming ofa big bndwdth, That can resist the /.crowd.May ur days b merry & bright & may al
  180. Skull and Bones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You are BOTH distantly related to British Royalty.

    You BOTH from a secret sociaty (skull and bones) founded on drug money, taking in only 15 candidates every year which puts its tie to the brotherhood above 'anything else'.

    Is this blinding bind not a threat to national security?

  181. Actually... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you've ever listened to Rangle articulate his argument it's two fold. He thinks service is inherently noble and good and might give direction and stability to people need but not otherwise encounter it. And he thinks that it will force politicians to prosecute warmaking in a judicious, as opposed to capricious, manner because the risk is shared so broadly. Forcing the hand, or asses, of fence sitters is more of an attendent concequence of a means used to achive an end, that quite frankly should be a given. And might be if more politicians actually had integrity.

  182. Well, one thing is for sure... by no+reason+to+be+here · · Score: 1

    If it wasn't already "excellent," Roblimo's karma is going to be through the roof after this.

  183. 100% on the money! by jimboinsk · · Score: 1

    The United States is a Fereral Republic, that's what allowed our country to become great so quickly. States controlled their own destiny except for a few Federal questions, and if someone was unhappy with the law in their state, they could easily move to another. The Federal government has taken too much power under the auspices of the Interstate Commerce Clause, and now people expect the Federal Government to solve their problems. The whole point of this systems was your STATE representatives were elected to represent you directly. The Federal government was merely there for common defense and arbitration of disputes, setting a common baseline for all of the states. The closer to the people the representatives are (ie. your state vice federal legislators), the more accurately they will represent you!

  184. is this Engrish or what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Where you're at in life" is improper English. Try "where you are in life" instead.

  185. Related Links: Politicians for Sale by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does anyone else find the "Related Links" bar at the top of the Slashdot story funny?

    It has links to Pricegrabber entitled "Best deals: Democrats", and "Best deals: Republicans". I know politicians are easily bought, but I didn't realize that you could buy them over the Internet!

  186. Totally off-topic. by David+Rolfe · · Score: 1

    Regarding your sig: "it's = 'it is'; its = possessive. E.g. it's flapping its wings"

    There should be a comma after "E.g." I mean, while were going grammar police, might as well go all the way :-) Maybe a period at the end too, since you stuck one after possessive.

    --
    Read Heinlein's 1953 Revolt in 2100, now more than ever.
    1. Re:Totally off-topic. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you meant "we're", not "were".

  187. Re:18-35 #8 DRUG POLICY by Whyte · · Score: 1

    why is it that medical marijuana is still illegal by federal standards and not the decision of the states or the individuals it affects?

    Interstate commerce for one.

    --
    -- No matter how great your triumphs or how tragic your defeats, approximately one billion Chinese couldn't care less.
  188. Yeah, great. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    Lets ask them unloaded questions, questions that do not force any issues whatsoever.

    Jeeeez.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  189. Charge for Spectrum by mikefe · · Score: 1

    If the FCC charged for spectrum, they could allow the broadcasters to file losses for all campaign advertising.

    Then only allow the largest claim to be the amount of the party they lost least times the number of parties advertised on that station. If you advertise one party less, you can't claim the ammount you advertised the other parties as a loss.

    That should effectively encourage equal advertising of the parties. And the stations will be glad it is an election year because they can claim more losses!

    --
    There: Something at a specific location.
    Their: Owned by someone.
    Please make sure your english compiles.
  190. Re:CHARGING PRESIDENT WITH HIGH TREASON #1 questio by xx_chris · · Score: 1

    "I George Bush do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic ..."

    Oh, and deliberately is spelled with deliberation.

  191. Popular Vote vs. Electoral (Random) by incog8723 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have a novel idea. Reduce the pandering to the electoral college AND the voters, simply by randomizing how the election will be decided. I.E., Popular vote one year, electoral vote the next.. electoral vote the next.. no one knows BEFOREHAND.

    Does anyone not see the utter brilliance in this idea?

  192. This one'll never get answered, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "What traits do you find most admirable in your opponent?"

  193. What's really really sad... by mabu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When I first saw this topic it really got my brain reeling about the possibilities.

    Then I came back down to earth.

    As much as I have hundreds of questions I could pose to each of the candidates, I know that ultimately any real tough or direct question would never be answered from them in any straightforward manner.

    So what's the point?

    Ask yourself, what could either of these men tell you that would really change your mind about them? What brilliant revelation will come from their lips that will suddenly make you understand? We've delved into their history to the nth degree. If you can't tell what kind of people they are from their past and their present, and knowing that in person you're going to get "politician-speak", what's the point?

    98% of the questions posed here would never pass muster to be asked to either of the candidates in a substantive public forum, and ironically, all of us know what the answers would be. Bush would respond with a shallow, thoughtless one-to-three word quip and then look at you like you slept with his wife while signalling the SS to remove you, and Kerry would blather all around the subject and twist it around to the talking points he rehearsed earlier in the day.

    No wonder people don't vote. No wonder we don't have truly great people in office any more. Who wants to put up with it?

    Aside from that, you bet your ass I'll be voting this year, as I do every year. The people this election is really about are not the people running, but everybody else in the country. You don't need to know diddly about Bush or Kerry. Look at your world and ask yourself if in the last four years you like the way things have been going. If you feel safer, more secure, live more comfortably, have more money and job security and better healthcare, then vote for GW Bush. If you aren't happy with the way things are going, one things for sure, keeping the same guy in office won't improve things and considering how the last election went, you can't afford to vote idealistically for a candidate who has no chance of winning. So it comes down to Bush or Kerry, and you must vote Kerry if you don't like the status quo. What either of them do or say at this point is moot to me. I'd vote for a bagel over Bush just to see if it could run the country better, and even in that case I'd be more hopeful and optimistic than I am now.

    Sad but true unfortunately.

    1. Re:What's really really sad... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you feel safer, more secure, live more comfortably, have more money and job security and better healthcare I do so I'll be voting for 4 more years.

    2. Re:What's really really sad... by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

      I'd vote for a bagel over Bush just to see if it could run the country better, and even in that case I'd be more hopeful and optimistic than I am now.

      I'm guessing that a bagel wouldn't be able to declare war on Iraq.

    3. Re:What's really really sad... by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      Well, let's see here...

      Safer? Certainly
      more secure? Absolutely
      More comfortable? hell yes..
      more money? you bet your ass
      job security? not going anywhere anytime soon
      better healthcare? for sure

      You bet I'm voting for Bush. Sure, there are elements I don't like, but that's what congress and the supreme court are for.

      Besides, all things being equal, I will vote for someone who says the same thing every day before I vote for someone who changes his tune all the time.

    4. Re:What's really really sad... by ELiTeUI · · Score: 1

      Precisely.

    5. Re:What's really really sad... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would it be illegal to eat a delicious begal after it became the President of the United States?

    6. Re:What's really really sad... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please explain why you feel safer and more secure. I have not had a republican actually answer why you feel safer and more secure without just repeating the drivel that the president teaches them to repeat. I want this in your own words.

    7. Re:What's really really sad... by avandesande · · Score: 1

      If you feel safer, more secure, live more comfortably, have more money and job security and better healthcare, then vote for GW Bush

      Oh now I get it, the Federal goverment is supposed to provide these things for me?

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    8. Re:What's really really sad... by Politburo · · Score: 1

      Bush would respond with a shallow, thoughtless one-to-three word quip and then look at you like you slept with his wife while signalling the SS to remove you, and Kerry would blather all around the subject and twist it around to the talking points he rehearsed earlier in the day.

      You're wrong here, though. Ask any pundit: Bush is the best politician at staying on message. He'll turn any question back to his talking points. Kerry, OTOH, like Gore, is awful at staying on message. He sidetracks, he nuances his answers, he goes into way too much detail, etc.

    9. Re:What's really really sad... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uhm, yeah....haven't you ever been to Canada?

    10. Re:What's really really sad... by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      I feel safer when I fly because the cockpit doors are closed instead of open, and I know nobody can get through those doors no matter what. I feel safer when I am out and about because of my constitutional right to carry a firearm, and to beat the living snot out of someone if they attempt to do me harm. I feel safer because there is a visibly higher police presence around where I live and work. I feel more secure because we, as a nation, are personally much more vigilant in looking out for ourselves and others. 9/11 taught us one thing, if nothing else, and that is to be more aware of our surroundings. You can bet that they will NEVER be able to use planes again because the passengers will no longer cooperate with terrorists. You can bet that if the average joe sees someone meddling around near a water treatment plant or a nuclear reactor, that Joe is going to call the cops instead of walking idly by.

      We lost almost 3000 of our citizens on that day, and that is something that nobody in our generation is going to ever forget. I think we all have the attitude, except for a few radical extremists, that we'll be damned if we're going to lose 3000 more to these barbarians.

      All the democrats have done is offer up a pessimistic attitude about our future - saying we're NOT safer and NOT more secure, and that we're NOT less vulnerable to further attacks, and that we CANNOT take care of ourselves. These are all simply lies designed at scaring us into voting for him. Kerry has no faith in the spirit of our own humanity, nor that we as a society can adapt and change to deal with events such as 9/11. His idea of dealing with terrorists is to give the UN more control over our country, and to appease the terrorists by trying to change our society to be more submissive to them. The way to avoid terrorism is to not offend the terrorists, I am sure he would say. Fuck that. I am an American, and the terrorists are barbarians. It is not my responsibility to appease them.

      Americans have risen to the occasion every time it has been required of them, which is why we are still here. We won our independence at an incredible human cost. We defeated the enemies of freedom in two world wars, again at an incredible human cost. Now we're involved in a different kind of conflict, where the goal is not territory, land, or wealth. The goal is to destory our spirit, our way of life, our society, and all of the principles on which our nation was founded. The goal is to drive us into a life of fear and intimidation, which is exactly what the Democrats are trying to do with Kerry's pessimistic "We can't do it" attitude. Again, fuck that. I don't need some naysayer telling me I can't do something.

    11. Re:What's really really sad... by drew · · Score: 1

      I'd vote for a bagel over Bush just to see if it could run the country better, and even in that case I'd be more hopeful and optimistic than I am now.

      funny, i said roughly the same thing about al gore last election, and look where it's gotten us....

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    12. Re:What's really really sad... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a registered Republican, and this is tripe. Smaller government and states rights my ass. "Security" by increasing global terrorism. I don't recognize my party. The grandparent is right - a vote for the incumbant is a vote for the status quo. The war party. Not for me, good sir.

    13. Re:What's really really sad... by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      hahah... this post actually made me laugh out loud.. we are not increasing global terrorism. The terrorists are increasing global terrorism. We are merely responding to it in an appropriate way.

      By the way, who brought up any arguments about States' Rights and smaller government? And would you mind pointing out where I stated what party I am affiliated with?

      The status quo is fine with me, because we are doing the right thing. 61% of people surveyed think Bush will do the better job with terrorists, so I am afraid you are not in the majority on this issue. Only 42% of poll respondents said that going into Iraq was a mistake.

      Bush is also waaaaay ahead an another important poll... one that is hardly ever covered because of what it is saying.. Background...

    14. Re:What's really really sad... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you aren't happy with the way things are going, one things for sure, keeping the same guy in office won't improve things and considering how the last election went, you can't afford to vote idealistically for a candidate who has no chance of winning. So it comes down to Bush or Kerry, and you must vote Kerry if you don't like the status quo.

      Your statement presupposes that one's vote has an effect on the outcome of the election. It doesn't. A popular vote on such a large scale as this is a placebo. (Technically it's not a popular vote, but the electors virtually always vote the way their constituents tell them to.) An individual's vote will not affect which of Kang and Kodos becomes President, so your statement about not being able to "afford" to vote for a third-party candidate is a non sequitur.

    15. Re:What's really really sad... by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      This is an old post I'm responding to but goddamn you are jaded.

      How can you "Vote for Change"?

      You say yourself that John Kerry is "all around the subject" and he will "twist it around to the talking points he rehearsed earlier in the day". Do you expect more of the same during his presidency or will he gain some sort of integrity when he assumes office. Certainly he would be a better statesman and his state of the union speech would make everyone feel very comfortable with whatever problems the nation happens to be in. Question is will he try to make everyone comfortable? Can he stand by his much vaunted plans?

      Personally I feel just as safe, just as secure and yes I do live more comfortably, have more money... no job security or subsidized health care but then I am self-employed (I had a very nice job from 1999 - early this year) so that's to be expected.

      I like the way things are going. Instead of the Clinton Era where everyone was getting paid to live a lie of hype and great expectations we now are living in a real world where "marketing" can't get you millions in funding but a good business plan can.

      In addition the world is on the move... after Reagan it seemed like the world said "We're all tired of fighting against intolerance and oppression... let's take a break". Which isn't entriely accurate but the tendency was certainly there... noone was looking at unjustice societies in the world and trying to change them. THe only foreign policy seemed to be emergency response, Kuwait, Bosnia, etc. Problems that should have been addressed BEFORE they broke out. Oh but it was all too comfortable to remember the world still had problems. We'd rather exhult in our new technologies, new found wealth and put off social problems for another day.

      Then our social problems decided they were tired of being ignored... 9/11. Bam... what do you do now?

      SO now you've got a President who decided to take up the torch of action and do something. AND I don't just mean reacting to an emergency, ala Osama Bin Laden... Bush and company decided that it was time to become active in the world again... that the US needed to begin a new campaign against oppressive governments and begin building a case for establishng new democracies in countries that had been left behind during the first wave of democratization... ie: the fight against communism.

      Yes it is idealism but can you think of a better ideal to fight for? Is there any higher cause than free choice of leadership? AND where else to begin than the cradle of civilization? Iraq has the resources to make it as a democracy. Not all oppressed nations are ready... Iraq has a large number of educated citizens whether ex-patriot or not.. they have enough to manage themselves. Iraq also has natural wealth with which to trade in the global economy, very important for a self sustaining nation on the road to freedom and liberty... poverty has never given rise to freedom, survival always gets in the way and allows might to make right, as long as it provides sustainabillity.

      The point is that you may want to look at a bigger picture other than your own convenient standard of living.

      4 more years of the same revolutionary world wide changes in governments, opportunity for 3rd world nations, liberty for the oppressed, free elections happening for the first time in several nations... I'm definitely voting for more of the same. If that makes me work a little harder to maintain my decadently high standard of living it is a sacrifice I'm more than willing to pay so that millions can have for the first time the same opportunities that I have had my entire life.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
  194. Nelson Mandela was labeled a terrorist. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 3, Insightful

    By Margaret Thatcher of course.

    And so where the Israleis fighting for their own state.

    And so on and so forth.

    Be careful, your terrorists, freedom fighters, etc.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
    1. Re:Nelson Mandela was labeled a terrorist. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      References to Nelson Mandela deliberately killing civilians to advance his political goals would be appreciated.

    2. Re:Nelson Mandela was labeled a terrorist. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      References to Nelson Mandela deliberately killing civilians to advance his political goals would be appreciated.

      The ANC had an armed wing, and they did blow up a few civilians. A google search for "umkhonto we sizwe terror" should get you started.

  195. The States choose the President by mveloso · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The states, not the people, choose the President.

    The United States of America is technically a government of, for, and by the States. It's a government of the people insamuch as the People live, work, and vote in the States.

    This is something that is glossed over in most history classes, so most of you never have been exposed to the idea. Back in the day, the idea of any kind of overarching government was an anathema to both the People and the States. However, it was recognized that some things (international relations, interstate commerce, war & peace, etc) were handled more effectively by a government representing the states, and that could mediate between the states.

    It was also recognized that the Continental Congress was broken, as it couldn't pay off all those Revolutionary War soldiers who were, in some instances, taking over state houses and threatening Congress with death, etc.

    So, well, that's the genesis of the American government. It was put together by a surprisingly talented bunch of men, with a distinct perspective on the world and the behavior of mankind. So far, their system has mostly worked.

    The reason the electors are good is because they act as a failsafe. I think that most electors are bound by law to vote the way the state votes. However, just because the law says something doesn't mean you have to follow it. If a majority of the electors felt that someone would be a Bad Choice, they could bolt...or abstain...or something.

    That's the last check. It's unclear what would happen in that case, but you never know. Rogue electors might be legal enough to throw the election to the House. Who knows?

    1. Re:The States choose the President by Asic+Eng · · Score: 1
      The states, not the people, choose the President.

      I don't think that's true anymore. It was the original intent, and it was true for some time, but it does not reflect current procedure. The people, not the states decide which set of electors are picked, and they don't vote for electors they vote for candidates who want to become president. It's not the elector's name on the ballot, it's not the elector campainging "I'm qualified to participate in the process of chosing the president".

      It was put together by a surprisingly talented bunch of men, with a distinct perspective on the world and the behavior of mankind.

      Agreed.

      So far, their system has mostly worked.

      Yes, and no - the current system of electing the president is not the original one. It has been modified dramatically. I don't think it's fair to say that the current system is working as the founding fathers intended - it almost bears no relationship to it anymore.

      The reason the electors are good is because they act as a failsafe. [...] If a majority of the electors felt that someone would be a Bad Choice, they could bolt...or abstain...or something.

      The exact opposite could happen, too: The people might (narrowly) decide for the good guy and then the electors might overturn it and bring the bad guy in. There is nothing in the current process of elector selection which would ensure that they are more qualified to elect the president than the general public.

    2. Re:The States choose the President by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      States with "Faithless Elector" Laws

      Alabama (Code of Ala. 17-19-2)
      Alaska (Alaska Stat. 15.30.090)
      California (Election Code 6906)
      Colorado (CRS 1-4-304)
      Connecticut (Conn. Gen. Stat. 9-176)
      Delaware (15 Del C 4303)
      District of Columbia (1-1312(g))
      Florida (Fla. Stat. 103.021(1))
      Hawaii (HRS 14-28)
      Maine (21-A MRS 805)
      Maryland (Md Ann Code art 33, 8-505)
      Massachusetts (MGL, ch. 53, 8)
      Michigan (MCL 168.47)
      Mississippi (Miss Code Ann 23-15-785)
      Montana (MCA 13-25-104)
      Nebraska (32-714)
      Nevada (NRS 298.050)
      New Mexico (NM Stat Ann 1-15-9)
      North Carolina (NC Gen Stat 163-212)
      Ohio (ORC Ann 3505.40)
      Oklahoma (26 Okl St 10-102)
      Oregon (ORS 248.355)
      South Carolina (SC Code Ann 7-19-80)
      Tennessee (Tenn Code Ann 2-15-104(c))
      Utah (Utah Code Ann 20A-13-304)
      Vermont (17 VSA 2732)
      Virginia (24.2-203)
      Washington (RCW 29.71.020)
      Wisconsin (Wis Stat 7.75)
      Wyoming (Wyo Stat 22-19-108)

      Most of the state laws referenced above state that an elector shall cast his vote for the candidates who won a majority of the popular vote in the state, or for the candidate of the party that nominated the elector. However, several state laws go further. In New Mexico, it is a 4th degree felony for an elector to vote for a candidate other than the one that received the highest number of votes in the state. If an elector violates his oath to vote for his party's candidates, it constitutes a misdemeanor and he can be fined up to $1,000. In North Carolina, the fine was $500 until in 2001, when it was increased to $10,000. In Michigan, North Carolina and Utah, failure to vote for the candidates of the party which nominated the elector constitutes resignation from the office of elector, the elector's vote is not recorded, and the remaining electors must fill the vacancy.
      (this was taken from http://www.ncsl.org/programs/legman/elect/Electora lCollege.htm)

  196. Great. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    The day you suffer what the Palestinians endure I would like to hear what people like you think about their enemy and the tactics you would be willing to use.

    Very easy to criticize others from the vantage point of our own cosiness.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
    1. Re:Great. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Start writing like a drunk lawyer. If you knew better, you'd understand that there's a reason that under the US system of laws, the privilege of necessity is only extended as a protection for tresspass to chattels. Necessity is never a proper defense for the taking of a life. Self-defense, maybe, but it needs to be in light of an imminent battery, which precludes planned-out-in-advance acts of terrorism.

      So while I can understand that these morons feel like their only solution is to kill people, I know better and find that what they're doing is still wrong. Killing people won't solve their problems, will it? So why is it a reasonable measure to take?

    2. Re:Great. by csundar · · Score: 1

      Imagine having to wait in line for 3hrs to be searched before you can go to your job. Imagine having your village's fields cut off from your homes by a wall, and then being told that you can't cross the wall to work your fields. Imagine your home being destroyed because it is supsected as being used by militants or because shooting came from the area of your home. Who in their right mind would not think about resisting such oppression. You say that they should vote, but the only body they have the ability to vote for is the Palestinian Authority (PA). The occupation of the West Bank and Gaza strip are exactly that. There are no rights afforded to the citizens of the territories. And there can be no rights afforded them by Israel because if they did give Palestinians the right to vote, then Israel would loose its Jewishness.

  197. this one's for dubya by Tuxinatorium · · Score: 0

    why are you such a douche?] Sincerely, I.P. Freely

  198. well, maybe the challenger hasn't done anything by mveloso · · Score: 1

    Someone who has made no mistakes is someone who hasn't done much of anything. /should be a proverb, or something

  199. But at least they try. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    And at least they understand why this is important.

    Chauvinistic countries (and people) clearly don't.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  200. What you're trying to say is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "No one died when Clinton lied"
    -- bumper sticker

  201. MPP Voters Guide by emkman · · Score: 1

    The Marijuana Policy Project Voters Guide

    --
    Moderation Totals: Flamebait=2, Troll=1, Redundant=1, Insightful=6, Overrated=1, Underrated=1, Total=12. (not mine)
  202. Instant-runoff is flawed too. by Isomorph · · Score: 1
    When the number of choices increases it efficiency decreases.

    Take a look yourself on the graphs in Brian Olsons essay named Simulation Of Various Voting Models for Close Elections

    And there is more info here

  203. Don't be idiotic. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    Chatolics are Christians, actually they are the biggest Christian denomination in the world (and the only one that can track its leadership back to Saint Peter himself).

    If you don't like them, fine, that is your prerrogative, but sprouting nonsense will not make a patent lie become a truth.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
    1. Re:Don't be idiotic. by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      Chatolics are Christians

      Catholics are Christians, just like humans are animals. But because there's no special word for "non-human animal", we put up signs reading "No animals allowed in the restaurant", and expect people to know what it means.

  204. Because... by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    .... the law of offer and suply is a bitch.

    What an stupid question.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  205. My question - My explanation by lar · · Score: 1

    This is the question I asked (you can see here - and please read my initial version of the question for my full intentions), so I figured I'd do a little explaining of why I asked.

    I know about the money Bush gave to this in his last State of the Union address. I did not know about Kerry's specific plan. But that's not the point. I made the connection to the space race in the 60s for a reason.

    In the 60s, a lot of money and political power was put into the space race so that we could definitely win. It was an incredible challenge and an equally incredible victory. The point is that the use of alternative fuels is also an incredible challenge (if not more so), and it will require an equally incredible movement. I don't think either of the two plans they've given are up to the task. It's as if they aren't really trying to solve the problem, and more like they're just trying to do *something* to say they've addressed it. Maybe I'm wrong. That's why I've asked the question.

    I'm wondering if Bush/Kerry can explain why a large movement hasn't been made to lessen our dependence on foreign oil. I think their answers to the second half of the question are the more telling in this regard.

    --
    ==
    I don't know exactly what that means, but I'm sure it means something....
    1. Re:My question - My explanation by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      The space race had a greater benefit as far as monetary concernes mattered. When we went to the moon, it was more or less to showcase our technoligy and prove to other nations we could inovate. Before that, we have basicaly duplicated what everyone else was doing but added somethign and called it better. The space race proved to the world we were a technoligy leader as well as bolster american pride.

      This si one of the main reasons NASA was created and the space program was as public as possible. Of course we "were" actually competing with the russians. They were basicaly the only other country at the time up to the task. We also half hardedly showed the rest of the world we were better then the russians while hinting about the military aplications that also ensured a safer america by imlying a stronger military.

      The amount of money brought into the county because of the space race is practicaly unimaginable. If we could find an angle with the alternative fuels source much the same way, I'm confident it would become as much of a priority. The germans durring WW2 were making gasoline and diesel from coal after we shut thier oil supply down. Why we havn't picked up on that method and used it to create an eficient, cost efective, clean burning fuel from inside out own country is much the same as the reasons with alternative fuel. There just isn't enough revenure in it.

      I'm currious about how much other countries are spending to find alternative fuel sources? Are we the only one looking for a different system as a national policy? (outside of electric vehicles wich would still use fossil fuels at some point in the charging proccess)

  206. The states don't have to let us vote by Theatetus · · Score: 1

    There's no Constitutional requirement I know of that the states have to have a plebiscite to appoint their Electors; the Constitution just says the Electors will be appointed in such manner as the state legislature directs.

    Simply appointing a body of electors would be a hard sell to the state's population, but it's not contrary to the Constitution and for that matter it's a step the Florida legislature contemplated in 2000.

    --
    All's true that is mistrusted
    1. Re:The states don't have to let us vote by Tony · · Score: 1

      Oh, I wasn't arguing the constitutionality of it. I was simply explaining that in many cases, it's against state law for the state's electoral college to vote against the popular vote wishes of the state.

      For instance, in Alaska, the winning party of the popular vote gets to appoint the voters. The votes themselves automatically go to the winning party.

      --
      Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
  207. Distribution of Wealth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As you know, US economy has been performing quite well during last 40 years. GDP has significantly increased. At the same time income of average Americans has fallen, while wealthiest population has gotten even richer. Do you consider it as a problem? If you don't, what are you planning to do with potential social unrest within decade or two if things continue the way they are now?

  208. SO? by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    The kind of Imperialism in the 20 and 21st century will not resemble the one of the 18th and 19th centuries.

    The US is not interested in getting more colonies, that process stopped in the XIXth century with the forceful annexation of half of Mexico. ALthough the US tried its go as a colonialist power in the Phillipines, it probed so expensive and bloody that cured US colonial adventurism, hopefully for good.

    But todays colonialism is different: countries vie for spheres of influence and that is why only big countries will have any and why small countries ally themsleves to bigger ones (EU, ASEAN).

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  209. Re:WTF? What about the national debt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Converting to SI might help us cut down that 500 billion trade deficit stat you just quoted."

    Err...no. We do not have a trade deficit because our goods are inferior to other people's goods (at least in their eyes). If that was the only issue, our currency would just fall in value until our goods were cheaper. We have a trade deficit because our currency is a global standard. We provide dollars to the world. In exchange, the rest of the world sends us goods.

    If you want us to stop having a trade deficit, we need to do one of two things:

    1. Stop providing the global currency (let Japan, the UN, or the EU do so instead); or

    2. Give away the money instead of disseminating it by buying goods; this would involve replacing the trade deficit with foreign aid.

    Forget exports. The only point to exports is to allow one to import. The economic activity that is needed is to make goods for other Americans.

  210. Dear Sirs... by dnnrly · · Score: 2, Interesting

    as the President, your actions will decide the price of the food I buy at the store, what treatments I might be able to recieve in hospital, our relationship with neighbouring countries and ultimately whether I (or my children) will need to be drafted.

    By the way, I'm British. I can't vote for you and have never even been to the US, so my question is this: why should I try to persuade my American friends to vote for you.

  211. Sigh.... by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    Your parochialism is so immense that is not funny.

    Most of the world uses km/hr and let me tell you something, it does not hurt, and nobody cares. But it is much simpler to do arithmetic with hose units. I will not probe this since it is widely documented.

    Poor people in the metric world! We don't have pints! The horror. Guess what buddy, there are bottles of 250 ml, 500ml, 1l, 1.5l, 2 l and 3 l.

    Germans seem to be pretty happy drinkers and I don't see them crying for the lack of pints to measure their beer. Of course you could drink beer in 500ml (or half litre if you really are that hung up on English system terminology) glasses and I assure you the 30ml or so difference would be completely unnoticeable, specially after the 3rd or 4th glass.

    I think. being reasonably intteligent individuals, we should use the easiest system to stop wasting our time in pointless conversations to a system that lacks any logic whatsoever.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  212. Re:This question blows by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

    AC: Why is "Democracy" considered such an ideal.

    If only there was a question mark on the end, that'd be an excellent question- especially for George Bush.

    Why does he consider democracy so important that 100s of Americans and 1000s of Iraqis should die to bring it to the Middle East?

  213. flamebait by zpok · · Score: 1

    - doesn't it vex you that the US is among developing countries on issues like human rights, poverty and crime?
    - what's so unchristian about well organized health-care (note this is not the same as nationalized health care, none of the candidates want that, although you've got to admit countries like Sweden do very well indeed with it)
    - isn't it strange that the US is the only western country that doesn't want to admit to the term 'cultural violence'?

    --
    I think, therefore I am...I think.
  214. How about Income Tax Reform? by dooglio · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why is there no question about this? Specifically, I'd like to hear what the canidates have to say about the Fair Tax proposal http://www.fairtax.org/.

    1. Re:How about Income Tax Reform? by Peyna · · Score: 1

      The "Fair Tax" proposal would shift an incredible amount of burden on the middle class. Those with extraordinary incomes' tax would be greatly reduced, because they don't spend nearly the percentage of their income as do the middle class, not to mention those in poverty, who spend nearly 100% of their income on goods and services.

      Increased taxes on goods and services have been shown to make life harder on those who need those goods and services the most.

      --
      What?
    2. Re:How about Income Tax Reform? by Peyna · · Score: 1

      Also, the taxes on these goods and services would need to be very high in order to maintain the same level of funds raised. How'd you like to pay 50% tax on that new car?

      The only way to fix the problem with taxes is to reduce the amount that the government needs to take in. Anything else you do is simply going to shift the burden around. At the moment the burden is at the very high end of incomes. If you want to change anything, you can only go lower, and make the middle and lower classes pay more; something they can rarely afford to do.

      --
      What?
    3. Re:How about Income Tax Reform? by cluckshot · · Score: 1

      Get real the 21% fair tax more than does the solution! It is lower than the lowest of the current payroll taxes. It shifts the burden to a more even collection system and cuts dramatically the cost of collections. I worked for the State of Alabama Department of Revenue, Sales and Use Tax division and the overhead to collect an income tax is about 60% of gross collections while the overhead to collect a sales tax is 4%. Get your head out of your ignorance long enough to realize that the Fair taxe is the ONLY way to solve the issue of US Trade and Taxation as now situatited. The US Tax system as now organized is debased and collapsing. Its collections dropped 4% in 2003! It cannot be maintained as it prosecutes a trade war against the Citizens of the USA.

      --
      Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
    4. Re:How about Income Tax Reform? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You still failed to address the issue of how it is "fair," since it will still redistribute the tax burden among the middle and lower class, while simultaneously and significantly lifting the burden from the upper class.

      That alone makes it unfair.

    5. Re:How about Income Tax Reform? by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      Only because those goods and services didn't go down in price...

      In other words, many estimates about the fair tax system show prices, after taxes, being about the same as they were before because the "hidden" taxes are removed.

      Combine that with taking home 100% of your paycheck, and you give lower classes a lot more buying power. In fact, people below the poverty level would actually be getting rebates for taxes they never paid - in other words, income redistribution that the left craves so much.

      Please at least read the fair tax proposal (at FairTax.org) before making up stuff about it... it's not "just another national sales tax" idea, it's a complete solution that's been well thought out.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    6. Re:How about Income Tax Reform? by cluckshot · · Score: 1

      I did not fail to issue the "fair" issue. Look up www.fairtax.org if you want to go into that in depth. It's in there.

      I met a man at Lowes yesterday who is retired and quite rich who pays no income tax due to how he invests. (Tax free bonds etc) The Fair Tax makes him pay. So get off the stupid arguments. He doesn't like the fair tax because for once he would have to pay.

      I have held a securities license in the past as well has having worked for the Revenue Department of the State of Alabama. I know this stuff in depth. Your opposition for failing to look to the lower class is just not right. The lower class is like my daughter taking her first job. Not counting anything but her federally mandated employment taxes she loses more than 21%. Under the Fair tax she would not only get her full check and be free to save it as she wanted, but even paying 21% Sales Tax she would be better off but under the Fair Tax she would also get a massive REBATE from the Feds. Her income would rise something like $4500 a year! This is the possibility to go to College etc that does not exist now! It is the chance to finance that business and get started in life she cannot do now. It is the chance to save money and buy that house she cannot hope to buy now because the feds take her money before she even gets the check. This ignorance about the Fair Tax has got to stop. The only thing that stops is the Social Manipulation by Federal Taxation that is going on like the war against marriage called the Marriage Tax Penalty.

      --
      Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
    7. Re:How about Income Tax Reform? by dooglio · · Score: 1
      Well said. Also, there are hidden taxes that the middle and poor classes pay in the current system. When you buy a good or service, the income tax (and payroll, social security, etc taxes) are all passed on to you, the consumer. Simple economics. So you pay double, triple tax--your income tax plus your vendor's income tax plus his vendor's income tax.

      So, if you want to talk about a regressive system, that's our current system. It seems to me we'd be better off under the Fair Tax.

      Not to mention, I don't think it's the federal goverment's business to know how much I make. My finances are my own, and I resent having to report intimate details of my life like that. It goes against the fundemental precepts of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

    8. Re:How about Income Tax Reform? by dooglio · · Score: 1
      I don't understand how you're coming to that conclusion. The Fair Tax elimates the ability to loop hole out of paying tax. You pay tax it at the register, period. If anything, the current system is regressive because the rich get out of paying taxes. I heard Kerry say he was going to try to "soak the rich" with his version of tax reform.

      Good luck. The democrats been trying to "soak the rich" for decades with little success. The rich can afford high priced CPAs and slick lobbyists to alter the tax code in their favor. So who pays the taxes now? The poor and especially the middle class.

    9. Re:How about Income Tax Reform? by dup_account · · Score: 1

      Your first paragraph is fantasy, the second paragraph is reality. You fantasize that under you "Fair Tax" system that there would be now loop holes... hahahhhdhhehehhahhehhehehehhahhh lmao rotflmao .... I can bet the loop holes would be written is as riders on the first piece that would get signed.

    10. Re:How about Income Tax Reform? by dooglio · · Score: 1

      Seems like it could be harder to impelement loop holes in a consumption tax system. I've never heard of loop holes, for example, in state sales tax (at least, in California). The only exception is if you are a wholesaler.

    11. Re:How about Income Tax Reform? by cluckshot · · Score: 1

      The Fair Tax is NOT A DEMOCRAT OR A LIBERAL proposal. Frankly it is generally opposed by only two classes of people. Those who somehow don't understand it or those who are DEMOCRAT and LIBERAL. If there was any one thing the Fair Tax does is it ends the social manipulation that is going on through the Income Tax at this time.

      The Fair Tax is essential because the current system produces a DE FACTO TRADE WAR against the American people. In short you as an American Citizen must markup your goods and services about 150% in order to pay the US and vairous State Taxes as of now. Your Foreign Competition under NAFTA / GATT etc doesn't have to add this markup. EU memembers get it subtracted out as a VAT Rebate on export to the USA! The US Tax System has debased the US Economy under the current situation. Its broke people! Time has come to fix it!

      --
      Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
  215. two party system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A two party system is only one step away from a one party system.

  216. Obligatory Simpsons Quote by jesterzog · · Score: 1

    Certainly, the framers wanted there to be alternatives in cases of dire need...

    There's a nice Simpsons reference here, from Treehouse of Horror VII:

    Homer: America, take a good look at your beloved candidates. They're nothing but hideous space reptiles. [unmasks them]

    [audience gasps in terror]

    Kodos: It's true, we are aliens. But what are you going to do about it? It's a two-party system; you have to vote for one of us. [murmurs]
    Man1: He's right, this is a two-party system.
    Man2: Well, I believe I'll vote for a third-party candidate.
    Kang: Go ahead, throw your vote away.

    [Kang and Kodos laugh out loud]

    1. Re:Obligatory Simpsons Quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't blame me; I plan to vote for Kang.

  217. Missing questions by zaxios · · Score: 4, Insightful

    These questions lack the sort of rigor I expect from Slashdot. I suspect more than a few people didn't actually email them. Here are some questions that need to be asked of the candidates:

    - Deficit

    The U.S. deficit stands at a record $477 billion. How would your Administration curb the deficit? Is there any way to cut spending without hurting homeland security, the Iraq situation, education or social security?

    - Intellectual property

    What is your policy on the INDUCE Act and extensions to copyright law? What is your attitude toward the preservation of Fair Use provisions in copyright law? How much power should organizations like the RIAA and MPAA be given to enforce copyright?

    - Iraq situation

    President Bush, how do you justify the war in Iraq knowing that before the war Saddam Hussein did not possess WMD and had no ties to al-Qaeda, and that parts of Iraq are now under the control of terrorists? How can you claim to be fighting a relentless war on terrorism when you have designated areas of Iraq as no-go zones for U.S. troops? To both candidates: in light of the CIA's recent predictions, what is your plan to avert a civil war in Iraq or defeat the insurgency? How do you plan to fight the insurgency without offending Iraqis and contributing to the cycle of violence?

    - War on terror

    Do you foresee an end to the war on terror? Will legislation like the USA PATRIOT Act and other suspensions of civil rights continue indefinitely?

    - War on terror

    Over $200 billion has been spent in Iraq and airline security has undergone tightening while port security and chemical plant security remain in large part unimproved since 9/11. What are your plans regarding this? How would your Administration protect the homeland?

    - Religion

    What is the role of religion in decision-making in the presidency?

    - Electronic voting
    (by bort27)

    Dear President Bush and Senator Kerry,

    For the first time in history, this presidential election will make use of electronic voting machines to track more than half of all votes cast nationwide. Diebold is the largest manufacturer of these machines.

    The Diebold machines have been proven insecure by numerous security analysts, and contain numerous security flaws. For example, it has been shown that anyone can change the electronic vote tallies by simply writing and executing a five-line computer script.

    William W. O'Dell, CEO of Diebold and one of the largest Republican campaign contributors in the state of Ohio, has stated publicly that he will do "everything he can" to get George W. Bush re-elected.

    My question is this: While there are clearly several advantages to electronic voting, do you believe that these problems could compromise the integrity of the 2004 election?


    - Kyoto by caseydk

    Senator Kerry, How do you reconcile the strict environmental guidelines established by the Kyoto Protocols - which you have spoken in favor of - with the creation and continuation of high tech - and therefore high energy consumption - industries?

    1. Re:Missing questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod paernt up. These are the sotr of questoins that should be asked.

    2. Re:Missing questions by bigpat · · Score: 1

      How about another question:

      Do you feel the office of president and the executive branch has grown too powerful?

  218. Minor nitpick. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    Caffeine is not addictive.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
    1. Re:Minor nitpick. by untaken_name · · Score: 1

      You are wrong. Caffeine causes physical symptoms of withdrawal. It also changes your brain chemistry. (of course so do a fuckton of other things, I just like being as dramatic about caffeine as most people are about weed)
      Here's a well-written student paper which explores both sides of this controversial issue. However mild, caffeine does indeed form a physical dependance.
      Here.

      Many things are classified as 'addictive' that I don't think should be; shopping, jogging, chocolate, gambling, just to name a few. However, caffeine actually does fit the requirements of an addictive substance.

  219. Re:CHARGING PRESIDENT WITH HIGH TREASON #1 questio by Lightning+Hopkins · · Score: 4, Informative

    I like this sort of brazan challenge to common sense. How do we know that the world is round?

    Well:
    It would take me all night to list all Bush's lies, but here's a few. The falsehoods told by George Bush (and most other politicians) can fall into five categories: Self-contradictions, falsehoods stated while ignorant or with a plausible after-the-fact claim to ignorance, statements that are only technically or half-true, lies by implication, and outright lies.
    Some outright lies:
    The single worst lie Bush has told, I think, is that the terrorists attacked us "because they hate our freedom," and that "America has been called to defend its freedom." That isn't true (defend it from what? Radical Muslims cannot take away an American's freedom; the government can), and it's clear that he said it mainly because if you can invoke the word "freedom," you've got a pretty good soundbite. If you can get Americans united in what they believe is the cause of freedom, you can get most of us to blindly play 'follow the leader' even to the point that we will eschew freedoms and the right to privacy in the name of freedom.
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/04/20 020409-8.html
    "They ["the people we're dealing with"] hate our freedoms."
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20 020328.html "They ["an enemy that are nothing but a bunch of cold-blooded killers"] hate what America stands for. They hate our religious tolerance. They hate our freedom of speech. They hate freedom of the press. They despise freedom. They despise freedom."
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20 010920-8.html
    " On September the 11th, enemies of freedom committed an act of war against our country. ... freedom itself is under attack. ... They hate our freedoms -- our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other. ... This is not, however, just America's fight. And what is at stake is not just America's freedom. This is the world's fight. This is civilization's fight. This is the fight of all who believe in progress and pluralism, tolerance and freedom. ... Freedom and fear are at war. The advance of human freedom -- the great achievement of our time, and the great hope of every time -- now depends on us."
    In fact, the Al Qaeda group attacked us because it is a group of Islamic extremists that believes that the force of what they call "jahiliyya" (infidelity), represented by the West and epitomized by America, is on a crusade against Islam. Usama Bin Ladin turned his focus from the Soviet Union to the United States when he became aware that the U.S. had stationed troops in Saudi Arabia, home of the Muslim holy lands. He came to see the United States as "the head of the snake," ultimately responsible for all the regional conflicts in the Middle East, citing America's apparent support for Israel in the Arab-Israeli conflict, the growing global effect of American culture, and other influences. In 1998, Bin Ladin issued a fatwa declaring it the duty of what he believed to be "real Muslims" to kill Americans.
    They don't give a shit about freedom. There was no terrorist group sitting around in a cave at one point that suddenly decided, "Hey, you know? America is way too free. Let's go hijack some airplanes and let's show 'em." Freedom doesn't enter into it. What they hate is what they percieve as our "imperialism" and what they call our "crusade against Islam." It's quite irrational, but that is the al Qaeda assessment of the world. If there is a madman on the loose, you should at least want to know what has driven him mad so that

    --
    Eh?
  220. fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The presidential debates have been scripted since 1996 by both parties. Notice all of this dual party arguing over what questions, camera angles and format. I want a free-form debate to make the canidates prove they can think on their feet.

  221. Re:CHARGING PRESIDENT WITH HIGH TREASON #1 questio by Lightning+Hopkins · · Score: 1

    Ach, "brazen," that should say. Whoops.

    --
    Eh?
  222. Surprised? by aero2600-5 · · Score: 1

    Everyone keeps mentioning how surprised the candidates will be by these questions. I don't think so. They've both heard of the Internet. (Okay, maybe Bush hasn't..) Regardless, I'm sure they have people in their campaigns to dig this stuff up and make sure they're prepared for it.

    --
    Please stop hurting America -- Jon Stewart
  223. Re:Gateway Drugs? Tobacco and Alcohol. by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

    Part of the point is that correlation is weak, and most likely has very little to do with the drug and a lot to do with the circumstance (i.e. the vast majority of people who try smoking cigarettes don't go on to do coke; a somewhat larger number of marijuana users go on to coke because marijuana is illegal and that illegality causes the 'gateway effect', not any inherent property of marijuana)

    Basically, the problem is that causality of pot leading to harder drugs has not been proven to be causally linked to *the drug*; it can only be linked to drug+circumstances. Many people (I count myself here) believe that if the drug was unlinked from the circumstance; if smoking pot no longer required dealing with sketch-ass dealers and was no longer demonized, there would be little to no gateway effect present.

    --

    ---
    Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
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  224. The REALLY important question by nacturation · · Score: 1

    The one thing I want to know is how did Roblimo post so many questions without getting bogged down by a whole ton of "Slow down, cowboy..." messages? I think this question, more than any, is vital to the nation.

    --
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  225. Re:WTF? What about the national debt? by publius_jr · · Score: 1
    Incidentally, American currency is already in metric units, with the units in use being the dollar & the cent(idollar). Aside from the occasional gumball or bouncy ball (which are based in quarters), every item I purchase has its cost phrased in some number of dollars & another number of cents. Don't expect to see kilodollars, or megadollars, any time soon, however; at least not until our currency is inflated to such an extent as to render the money-energy (i.e. purchasing power [for those unfamilar with econophyics, whence this interesting term is introduced, & interested in liberty, please confer http://econpapers.hhs.se/paper/wpawuwpma/0203005.h tm)] of the dollar negligible, a fate which should be more soon than late with the current practices of our supposedly-benevolent, privately-owned, & reserveless Federal Reserve.

    Would that the unwitting slavery of the "free world" due to corrupt money systems were a more salient topic for presidential debate than slugs and kilograms, and yards and meters! And for an added bonus, a corollary topic to the hoped-for topic of debate would be our infamous and balooning national debt.

  226. MOD PARENT DOWN! by tunah · · Score: 1

    I can't believe you guys are so naive... can't you see Roblimo is after free karma?

    --
    Free Java games for your phone: Tontie, Sokoban
  227. My 9th cousin, twice removed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My ninth cousin, twice removed. I hear he got some experience somewhere awhile back.

  228. Hey W, a question for you by SnappingTurtle · · Score: 1
    I've long wished someone would test W's vocabulary with this question:
    Mr. President, what is your opinion on teaching mastication in schools?
    --
    I've found that my posts don't format quite right w/o a sig.
    1. Re:Hey W, a question for you by TheShadow · · Score: 1

      All children must learn to chew on a 3rd grade level before leaving elementary school.

      --

      --
      "What do you want me to do? Whack a guy? Off a guy? Whack off a guy? Cause I'm married."
  229. Re:CHARGING PRESIDENT WITH HIGH TREASON #1 questio by Lightning+Hopkins · · Score: 1

    Mm, and I meant to link this, too. http://www.mydd.com/story/2004/8/20/213846/709
    There's plenty to choose from.

    --
    Eh?
  230. Is anyone reading the kids' questions thinking by bouis · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Mr Kerry, your campaign seems to have the momentum of a runaway freight train. Why are you so popular?"

    Sheesh. These questions are so stacked that no one will ever take this community seriously.

  231. +1 no shit? by loraksus · · Score: 1

    n/t

    # Please try to keep posts on topic.
    # Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads.
    # Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said.
    # Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about.
    # Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)

    Problems regarding accounts or comment posting should be sent to CowboyNeal.

    --
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  232. Easy: by ImaLamer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Quit fucking up!


    Seriously, tort reform is a pipe dream like privatizing Social Security.

    I see it as a non-issue because I won't see change in my lifetime.

  233. They're just returning by pommiekiwifruit · · Score: 1

    Look at the names of cities in California - Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Diego, San Jose. What makes you think they were setup by english/german immigrants? Your family are most likely newbies to the area.

  234. Re:Blaim Feminism's double standard [OT] by 808140 · · Score: 1

    This is completely off-topic.

    You know, I was having a discussion with my lover the other day because she had gone off the pill for a bit, and we (out of habit) had had unprotected sex a few times. Not a big deal, she didn't get pregnant (although it was dangerous), but I said something like, "You know, you really should get back on the pill, or we should start using condoms or something, because if you got pregnant you'd probably have to go all the way down to Hong Kong to get a safe abortion." (We live in Shanghai).

    Anyway, she said something then that scared me a lot, as a man. She said, "I don't know if I'd want to have an abortion." And I just about exploded. Essentially, the thesis of my argument was, "You can't make that decision for the both of us." Her retort, then, was "Don't you think you should at least consider my opinion?"

    And my answer to that was no, that I shouldn't have to. In normal circumstances when two people have a difference of opinion on a decision to be made, I would be rooting for the consensus approach -- but in this case, I felt that we were dealing with a decision that had two very different outcomes. One possibility, abortion, had very little effect on our lives. Sure, we'd both be filled with "what ifs" and she'd probably feel sick and depressed for a while, which is lamentable, but contrasted against the outcome of not having an abortion, it just seemed rather minor. I felt that no one (man or woman) should have the ability to unilaterally make a decision that would affect someone else's life for at least 20 years and probably forever.

    Anyway, the reason I'm bringing this up is because it seems like a classic case of men's interests versus women's. In classic women's lib, we've often talked about how men in the old days (and in many places still today) have "hijacked" women's bodies for the purpose of bearing children. This is mostly universally decried. Now that women have the power to choose of their own accord whether they want a child or not, there seems to be the possibility of a woman forcing a man to be a father when he doesn't want or isn't ready to be (along with all the responsibilities, financial and otherwise, that that implies).

    I really had a very emotional reaction to all this, I must admit. Thinking about it now, from a more distant perspective, I wonder if this not-at-all uncommon response from men on this issue is actually a result of experiencing, for the first time, what it is like to not be in power. I mean, we control most everything else, but one of the great successes of feminism in the western world is giving control of women's bodies back to women, which is logical, after all.

    But a side effect of power is that for everyone who has it, someone doesn't. I made my argument to her and she accepted it, but in the pit of my stomach I knew that if the time came and she decided an abortion wasn't for her, there was nothing I could do about it except run out on her and my child, and I could never in good conscience do that.

    In the past, men have held all the cards, and women I suppose have simply had to put up with this uncomfortable feeling of having life-altering decisions made for them. But women's bodies have always held extreme appeal to men, and because we covet them, they have always been a source of power. So we've done all we can to strip this power from women, or convince them they don't have it. I'm thinking, in particular, of social attitudes to female infidelity. Throughout history, men having multiple lovers has always been accepted -- even in the Bible we have virile King Solomon and his harem of women. The opposite, however, has never really been true in our society (have you read the Scarlet Letter?). I was thinking that this is probably because a woman always knows her child is hers, but a man can never be sure. Because, in a patriarchal society, inheritance of land and titles has always passed from father to son, it has been absolutely necessary that we ensure our bl

  235. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL (correction) by 808140 · · Score: 1

    Most people that graduate from inner city schools still can't get into high school

    That should read "university". Sorry.

  236. Well, emmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Anyway, she said something then that scared me a lot, as a man. She said, "I don't know if I'd want to have an abortion." And I just about exploded. Essentially, the thesis of my argument was, "You can't make that decision for the both of us." Her retort, then, was "Don't you think you should at least consider my opinion?"

    And my answer to that was no, that I shouldn't have to."

    Maybe you shouldn't be having sex with this particular woman then, if you aren't ready to deal with the consequences of it. Find a woman who IS willing to take the precautions against getting pregnant and making you an unwilling father. It's really that simple.

    I'm really offended by people's general lack of foresight and planning on something so biologically elementary as sex and reproduction.

    1. Re:Well, emmm... by 808140 · · Score: 1

      I think you're missing the point of my story. No birth control method is perfect anyway; even if we'd been using condoms or she'd been on the pill, there remains the possibility of conception. My answer to unwanted conception is abortion.

      Now, I will agree that contraceptives are a superior solution. But I think of them as a superior solution because they are less possibly harmful to the woman, less costly, and less psychologically disturbing, not because I want to avoid killing babies.

      Just wanted to note that, you know, in case you wanted to get more offended. I don't jive with the whole pro-life stance thing and if your little retort is seeding for that sort of debate, this is the last response you're going to get from me on the subject.

    2. Re:Well, emmm... by lambadomy · · Score: 1

      Your argument that the abortion solution has "little affect on your lives" is bunk. It is going to affect her waaaaaaay more than it affects you, and while unlikely there is a chance she may never really recover from it.

      The fact that you wouldn't be willing to run out on her and the child is the real problem here. You shouldn't be able to force her to have an abortion, and she shouldn't be able to force you to stick around and raise or pay for the baby. If there are laws in place that require one thing or the other, then you have to keep them in mind when making your sexual decisions. It really isn't that hard.

      Finally, have no idea how it works in China, but in America you can have the baby and then give it away. For some people this is a preferred solution than just having an abortion.

  237. Question for Bush by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What do you think gives you the right to interfere with other countries all the time, by direct military interaction and cripalling economic sanctions? Even if Irag did pose a threat, why make a pre-emptive strike? Surely you took the risk that if Iraq actually did have WMDs that they would have used them? I'm convinced that the fact they didn't use WMDs was becasue they didn't have any, do you seriously believe that this isn't that case? Don't you think its about time that the USA and UK concentrate on their own problems and leave 'global policing' to the UN and Nato?

  238. But... by Vo0k · · Score: 1

    But... But replacing crude oil with alternate fuels, that would mean all the american boys who lost their lives in Iraq, died for nothing!

    --
    Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
  239. If you weren't running for President yourself. . . by kfg · · Score: 1

    who would you support?

    In fact, let's make this a two parter and also ask who, other than yourself, you would want to be President.

    Because of the exigencies of the political process I would expect the answer to the second part to be different from the first, some of the best men for the job being men that can't be considered viable political candidates.

    KFG

  240. MR Bush by doktorjayd · · Score: 1, Funny

    when do you plan to confess?

    1. Re:MR Bush by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He never will, he is a worthless sack of shit who needs to be assasinated.

  241. Re:Gateway Drugs? Tobacco and Alcohol. by marsu_k · · Score: 1
    if smoking pot no longer required dealing with sketch-ass dealers and was no longer demonized, there would be little to no gateway effect present.
    The solution could be in your closet. Go homegrown!
  242. Iraq WMD ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We were told that we had to act on Iraq "now" because Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction waiting to be used on unsuspecting American civilians.

    Where are these weapons?
    Why is it that the same persons behind this lie were telling former president Clinton to invade Iraq before 9-11?

    Why did we go into a country that was not in any way connected to the September 11 atacks on the US?

  243. Re:18-35 #11 DRAFT - ridiculous question by AKnightCowboy · · Score: 1
    Under what circumstances would you institute a draft to fight the war on terrorism, or institute any other national service (such as the Universal National Service Act) to fight any other war?

    That's a ridiculous question. Of course they'll say they will never support a draft. As we saw in Vietnam, conscripted men make AWFUL soldiers. They don't want to be there and they don't care about their fellow soldiers' welfare (because they are there against their will). Some may have learned to deal with it and went on to serve with honor, but for the most part it would've taken 2 or 3 draftees to equal the fighting usefulness of one volunteer soldier.

    We have plenty of volunteers these days, so why would we bother even talking about the draft? Selective Service is there in case we have a serious threat to our nation's liberty like a massive outside invasion from China or Canada being invaded by a billion communist polar bears or something and calling for aid from their friends to the south.

    Aside from Iraq, which was the stupidest thing Bush could've done (and I was a STRONG supporter of him 2 years ago), none of our actions against terrorists require a significant investment in ground troops. Even if the terrorists numbered 50,000-100,000, they are scattered around the world and not formed as a fighting force. We need to fight them with tens of millions of police officers and thousands of special counter-terrorist forces throughout the world, not drop million dollar cruise missiles on empty caves and send hundreds of thousands of troops halfway around the world to be sitting ducks in the middle of a desert.

  244. So what you're saying is... by flimflam · · Score: 1

    what, exactly?

    Are you suggesting that we do away with the popular vote altogether and let the state legislatures decide? Or we vote for electors that aren't pledged to vote for a particular candidate? What exactly are you suggesting we change? Are you just suggesting we need a different style of campaigning where the candidates appeal to the electors and not the people?

    All this talk of the founders' intents is evading the issue. We live in a different world now. A system as envisioned (and as imperfectly implemented in our modern age) by the US Constitution is not perceived as democratic any more. Do we want to change it to make it more so, or not? (And if you are going to take me to task for being so concerned about perceptions, please explain why the perception of fairness is not of upmost importance in a democratic society.)

    --
    -- It only takes 20 minutes for a liberal to become a conservative thanks to our new outpatient surgical procedure!
    1. Re:So what you're saying is... by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1

      If you think I was suggesting anything in particular, you've missed the point.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
  245. Not asking you. by lastmachine · · Score: 1

    You are asked to rate the question, not puff for your dope habit.

  246. Re:18-35 #8 DRUG POLICY by lastmachine · · Score: 1

    Well, thank God they spelled/chose *affect* correctly. Unless they meant to affect an individual, by effecting a state?

  247. Pet Peeve: Please look up "democracy" by flimflam · · Score: 1

    This "The US is a republic not a democracy" meme is really fucking annoying.

    Now, you may be right that the US isn't particularly democratic, but that has fuck all to do with it being a republic. A republic is merely one (and probably the only practical one on a scale as large as ours) possible implementation of a democracy. There are likewise many ways of implementing a republic, some of which are more democratic than others.

    Now, to the extent that the US Constitution is revered around the world, it is generally because it spells out in detail the structure of a government beholden to the people, and specifically enumerates the democratic rights of the people.

    In that context, the electoral context may be an anachronism. The whole electoral system may, in this day and age, be working against the democratic ideals embodied in the constitution. In that case we have the constitutional power to change it. That's democracy.

    --
    -- It only takes 20 minutes for a liberal to become a conservative thanks to our new outpatient surgical procedure!
    1. Re:Pet Peeve: Please look up "democracy" by drew · · Score: 1

      There actually is a very distinct difference between the two systems. In a true democracy every decision is handled by a majority vote of the population. Of course getting everyone involved to vote on every issue that requires a decision is extremely impractical for any but the smallest groups of people, (as well as the inherent shortcoming in simple majority rule systems where sooner or later a group that is in the majority realizes that they can do whatever they want at the expense of everyone else) the idea of the republic was born, where rather than voting on every decision, the people elect representatives to make informed votes on every decision for them. and so, in the truest sense of both words, a democracy is not a form of republic, and a republic is not a form of democracy.

      of course, there are no countries in the world (that i know of) that use a true democracy, so when people refer to the united states, or any other country, as a democracy, what they really mean is a country that is (more or less) run by democratic principles. in this light, the aforementioned 'meme' seems stupidly pedantic, but there is a valid point there.

      mostly, i see this statement used as a response to something like "if the u.s. is a democracy, why isn't the president elected by the popular vote?"
      well, if the u.s. were a true democracy, we wouldn't be voting on a president at all. obviously it is not, so the question should be interpreted as "if the u.s. is a country that is (more or less) run by democratic principles, why isn't the president elected by the popular vote?" and to answer that, there are a number of different ways to select leaders that follow democratic principles- there is no rule that for a government to be democratic everything must be decided by majority rule.

      saying that the u.s. isn't a democracy is just a mental shortcut for people who don't want to explain the flaw in the question (or don't know the flaw, and just latched onto the answer because they heard someone else say it)

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    2. Re:Pet Peeve: Please look up "democracy" by flimflam · · Score: 1

      The problem is that you are applying a very strict, narrow definition to a word that has never been defined that way. There are myriad different social and political systems that may be seen as more or less democratic to the extent to which power is dispersed through the people as opposed to being concentrated in the center.

      At the end of the day, "democracy" is probably not a very good word to use in a descriptive manner, since its meaning is so vague. It is much more useful in either a comparative or aspirational sense. For instance we can agree that the U.S. is more democratic than North Korea, for instance. We can also agree that the U.S. could certainly be considerably more democratic.

      There is clearly no such thing as a perfect democracy (at least among humans.) Even in any of the direct forms of democracy that you allude to, no decision can ever perfectly reflect the collective will of the people. In any form of decision making, whether it be consensus, simple plurality voting, approval voting, etc., there will always be people who don't agree with the final decision.

      In the end, I think that you can't underestimate the importance of perception. A system in which people understand and respect the decision-making process is better than one which is less transparent, even if people ultimately agree with the decisions made in the second one. Note that different systems will be appropriate in different situations (hence the ability to have a functioning military in a democratic society).

      All that said, I think my main problem with people saying the US is a republic not a democracy is that it is so completely point-less. People tend to write it (and I've only even come across this line of "reasoning" on line, and only recently) as a way of dismissing a discussion about some un-democratic feature of our society. It seems to be the new post-Soviet way of telling someone to "Go to Russia if you don't like it here."

      --
      -- It only takes 20 minutes for a liberal to become a conservative thanks to our new outpatient surgical procedure!
    3. Re:Pet Peeve: Please look up "democracy" by drew · · Score: 1

      I've been hearing this "argument" for some years, probably since before I was able to vote. I could probably even be accused of having used it myself before. I don't specifically remember having used it, but it does sound like something I might use to try and dismiss an argument. It is a statement that is both factually correct and utterly meaningless, and so, like a lot of things we are likely to hear the politicians say during the upcoming debates, it is a good way of trying to dodge an issue that you don't feal like discussing, for whatever reason.

      You did hit upon a very important issue here:
      A system in which people understand and respect the decision-making process is better than one which is less transparent, even if people ultimately agree with the decisions made in the second one.

      i think that the problem with the current system is not lack of transparency, but lack of voter education. i was honestly surprized by the number of people after the last election who did not realize that a candidate could win the electoral vote, and hence the election, without winning the popular vote. i am surprized now by the number of people who still think that 2000 was the first time this happened. i think that overall the electoral system we use works pretty well- better than most people realize. i believe that the current implementation of it is a little flawed, but the concept is much better than most people give it credit for. maybe the reason for that is because i first learned about the electoral system when i was in 4th grade. i also studied it a great deal in college, and on my own time i've read a lot of the research regarding the statistical theory and how it (whether by design or by accident) prevents the abuse of minorities by an organized majority.

      personally, i believe that, whether through amazing prescience or just damn good luck, the founding fathers came up with a pretty good system. of course i'm not the expert, but i have at least taken the time to try to understand how it works and why it works that way. if all of the armchair politicians out there calling for electoral reform would learn the current system and its strengths, rather than just yelling about its weaknesses (which it does have), we might make some actual progress in the area.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    4. Re:Pet Peeve: Please look up "democracy" by drew · · Score: 1

      actually it looks like i just used that statement this morning in one of my other replies to this thread. must have been before i had my coffee....

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
  248. BUSH DOESN'T ANSWER HYPOTHETICALS by TrentL · · Score: 1

    it's the truth. If your question has the word "If" in it, Bush will just say, "I don't answer hypotheticals."

  249. War on Terror by cluckshot · · Score: 1

    Dear President Bush/Senator Kerry. You have called for full implementation of the 911 Report Recommendations. As you are aware the 911 Report fingered America's porous borders and Illegal Immigration as the key to any successful Homeland Security effort. It was discussed in the White House in January 2001 and it was noted that no other measures would be of any value unless this situation was corrected. With Illegal Immigration running at 3 times the rate it was running on 9/11/2001 how would you rate the efforts taken to date to contain this problem and what are you going to actually begins correcting this?

    --
    Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
  250. Economic Trade War by cluckshot · · Score: 1

    Dear President Bush/Senator Kerry. I am an American Citizen. My wife is a Perminant Resident Alien. We must mark up our wages 150% in order to pya the high federal taxes. Due to the Free Trade Agreements we must compete against foreign goods and services brought into our market TAX FREE. What are you going to do about this Trade War being leveled against us by the United States Government banning us from our own market by such punative tarrifs on our wages while our foreign competition is tax free?

    --
    Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
  251. Re:If you weren't running for President yourself. by Peyna · · Score: 1

    who, other than yourself, you would want to be President

    Hopefully, they've chosen that person to be their vice-president. Because if they are elected and become disabled in their capacity as president for whatever reason, then the vice-president takes over.

    --
    What?
  252. Re:If you weren't running for President yourself. by kfg · · Score: 1

    Hopefully, they've chosen that person to be their vice-president.

    You mean like the way LBJ chose Humphrey?

    No, I'm afraid the the choice of VP is always a purely political decision made in order to strengthen the ticket and the party, with the party bosses playing the dominant role in the decision.

    Sometimes done in order to take a strong, viable member of one's own party and knife them in the political back for the "good" of the party.

    KFG

  253. New Voter Project == Fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://powerlineblog.com/archives/007968.php
    Chec k it out.

  254. No, what's *really* sad... by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

    If you feel safer, more secure, live more comfortably, have more money and job security and better healthcare, then vote for GW Bush.

    No, what's *really* sad is that you believe all blessings flow from the presidency.

    How exactly do you think Kerry would give you "more money and job security and better healthcare"? Where exactly would this river of milk and honey come from?

    And I feel a HELL of lot safer than I would had Gore been in the White House in these times. We'd probably still be having "summits" with bin Laden, trying to "understand" him and why his actions are our fault, and begging him to convince the "real" miltants to stop the attacks (a la Arafat).

    1. Re:No, what's *really* sad... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And maybe, just maybe, we could have had a first step in addressing the fundamental reason they hate us instead of feuling the fire.

      (Devil's Advocate, but still..)

    2. Re:No, what's *really* sad... by mabu · · Score: 1

      Bush is specifically telling us we're safer and more secure and things are going great. It's not that I expect government to provide all those things (although feeling safe from a foreign invasion is something I'd generally hope my government would provide), these are the things Bush has been preaching he's doing.

      Now if you choose Bush over Gore, why aren't you over in Iraq fighting? No excuses. If you're one of those who is in favor of my tax dollars going to invade countries who haven't threatened us, get your ass over there and fight. The sooner you lose your head, the higher the collective IQ of the remaining populace will increase.

    3. Re:No, what's *really* sad... by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      Now if you choose Bush over Gore, why aren't you over in Iraq fighting? No excuses. If you're one of those who is in favor of my tax dollars going to invade countries who haven't threatened us, get your ass over there and fight.

      I served in the US armed forces for ten years. I don't need any excuses.

      The sooner you lose your head, the higher the collective IQ of the remaining populace will increase.

      How charming. And literally false, if it gets down to it, but I don't suppose you were being literal.

  255. My questions to both of you. by DirkDaring · · Score: 1

    Ginger or Mary Ann?

  256. Re:18-35 #8 DRUG POLICY by The-Bus · · Score: 1

    The majority of U.S. citizens, nine U.S. states, and several medical associations, support the use of medicinal marijuana. Mr. President, as Governor of Texas you once said that "I believe each state can choose that decision as they so choose." Do you plan on making medical marijuana a federal or state decision?

    Notes:
    Most of the suits against states allowing the use of medicinal marijuana were filed during Clinton's time. (http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/05/17/column. billpress/)
    The above question un-loads it by not having the candidate make it an issue of whether or not they support it, just whether it should be a federal or a state decision.

    --

    Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.

  257. Which one of you is Kang? by elhondo · · Score: 1

    I don't want to make the same mistake I made in the last election.

  258. not everybody shares your faith either by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

    For the candidates, is it conflicting to take a position on issues based on Christianity (such as abortion and gay marriage) when not everyone in America believes in God or Christianity?

    Not everyone in America believes in your particular set of secular ideals either, yet you somehow feel free to hold them, express them, and act upon them.

  259. hmm ... by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

    Having gone to high school in a very conservative area, where parents refused to teach their children proper sex education, I watched 20 of my classmates leave due to teenage pregnancy. Some knew about sex while others had no idea how to get pregnant.

    Hmm, I doubt that you're much older than me, and I went to public school in your part of the world. Sex ed was already busily ramping up, as were teenage pregnancies. In fact, they seemed to rise in tandem (which could either mean "we need even more!" or "oops").

    Question for you, rather than the candidates: Do you really think it was lack of education? How do you explain the failure of the education programs to achieve their stated aims? Wouldn't we kill for the statistics of the early to mid sixties, when these education programs were first developed and sold?

  260. WRONG! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    As things are running right now, the Social Security trust fund is large enough to keep running for seventy years, because of a small increase in the SS tax during the Reagan administration. That increase was designed to prevent the exact sort of problem you're worried about.


    * There is no Social Security trust fund. It is just an accounting gimmick. The only thing in the trust fund is the promise to use future tax money.

    * The current SS suprlus gets spent, not saved. In other words, we are overtaxed $200 billion for Social Security that gets spent on the general fund.

    * The SS surplus will be gone anywhere between 2014 and 2018. That isn't 40 years down the road, that is 10-14 years away! What will happen when the surplus disappers. Two things:
    1) The $200 billion that we were raiding from the SS surplus will no longer be available meaning program cuts or tax increases
    2) Tax money from the general fund will need to start paying off the "trust fund" which means benefit cuts or tax increases.

    It's really looking bleak if you ask me.
    1. Re:WRONG! by Murdock037 · · Score: 1

      Quoth you:

      There is no Social Security trust fund...

      and

      The current SS surplus gets spent, not saved...

      You're saying that there is no money there, but it's being spent, anyways?

      No. The trust fund is filled with government bonds. In other words, today's government is indeed borrowing from the Social Security trust, but those bonds have value. (An "I.O.U.," as many on this thread have put it, sounds worthless; the reality, called a "government bond," which you and I could buy ourselves and expect a lifetime ~3% return, most certainly is not.)

      Social Security is kept in a seperate account from the general fund. You can argue the merits of this, but it's not as if the money has simply disappeared.

      Unless the government defaults on its bonds (and no politician in his right mind would ever advocate that), the Social Security trust does indeed have assets. When you factor in the projected revenue of workers' contributions, there will be enough money in the system to support Social Security for a good seventy years.

      And that's even with the coming onslaught of baby boomer retirements. The lurking disaster is the possibility of starving the system, by diverting incoming funds to privatized accounts.

  261. Re:18-35 #8 DRUG POLICY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    nice wordplay

  262. Re:WTF? What about the national debt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't expect to see kilodollars, or megadollars, any time soon

    Never heard of the phrase "megabucks"?

  263. How about by lucasorion · · Score: 1

    Mr President, just how far do you think it is appropriate to mischaracterize your opponents words and history before you have sunk to the level of deceitful demagoguery? Or do you even care if you sink that low? Of course not, look who I'm talking to, disregard the question.

  264. I'm sorry but that is BS by TamMan2000 · · Score: 1

    The republicans are for the rights of states to be conservative, and nothing more.

    The republicants are the ones who oppose medical merijuana, the republicans opposed assisted suicide laws. Basically anytime a liberal state wants to do something liberal, the conservatives living in that state run to their federal government and cry "save us from these liberals".

    They aren't for states rights, they just like to say they are. I suppose you think they are for small government too?

    --
    "I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
    1. Re:I'm sorry but that is BS by untaken_name · · Score: 1

      They aren't for states rights, they just like to say they are. I suppose you think they are for small government too?

      Erm. That was exactly the OP's point. Their platform declares that they stand for freedom, while their policy indicates that they stand for governmental control. They are, indeed, ostensibly for small government, although the current platform does not reflect this. However, they are counting on the legions of Republicans who *are* for small government and state's rights voting for them. Sadly, many will.

  265. We give plenty already by acoustix · · Score: 1

    We already give more than ALL OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD COMBINED!

    http://www.state.gov/g/oes/rls/fs/2003/23909.htm

    Why do we (US) have to pick up the tab on everything?

    --
    "A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
  266. Re:Great question. MOD UP PLEASE by brandonY · · Score: 1

    No it's not.

    If judges are really overturning, rewriting, or recreating laws based on their own agendas, an appeals court, federal court, or the supreme court should overrule them. If the supreme court is making laws, then maybe you should ask your congressmen, whom you DID elect, why they're stuffing exceptionally partisan men into the court in the first place, instead of impartial, learned scholars are law.

  267. Well, yes and no. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The authors of the constitution did decide to make things the way they are in the hopes of "fairness", that the electors would choose what the people told them to, but they also did it as a means of communication. In that time, you couldn't pick up the phone and say "I want Washington" or whoever, and sending all those ballots by pony-express (or private couriers, for that matter) would take months and rely on the idea that the courier himself was honest enough to deliver them all.

    I would say that now-a-days we have the means to provide a better solution, more indicative of the popular demand (which is, afterall, the foundation of a democracy... too bad we live in a republic...), but it would seem that Diabold has proven me wrong already...

  268. Re:18-35 #13 CHILD ABUSE by ILoveMyGeeky1 · · Score: 0

    To all three who have replied to this, I have to disagree. First of all, the suppositions of this post are all too true. I know that firsthand. If you want to nix it on the grounds that it's too emotionally charged, we may as well nix the abortion debate, the gay marriage debate, the debate about the war, the debate about the genocide in Rwanda, etc. Let's face it: Any time we are debating someone's beliefs it's going to be emotionally charged. As for there being nothing we can do about it, there is. It's called education. Dennis Kucinich had a plan for a department that would be a little like homeland security, but they would be on a much more local level. They would decide how to help police officers, security guards, etc. Part of the duties of this department would be research and prevention of domestic violence, rape / sexual abuse, and child abuse. These things are much more widespread than anyone wants to believe, and they need to be addressed.

    --
    -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
    Yea! Go Tux! He's just so dead Tuxy.
  269. You forgot something... by ghereheade · · Score: 1

    As you will notice from my answers, I am for all the good things and against all the bad things. My opponent, however, isn't for the good things as much as me and he also isn't against the bad things as much. So it is clear that I am more good and he is more bad.

  270. Intelligence by ayeco · · Score: 1

    If you were to recieve information from Russia, British and American intelligence agencies that a country known for using gas on it's own people was still producing weapons of mass destruction, what would you, as President of the United States, do?

  271. Re:18-35 #4 AIDS: But asked a better way by stratjakt · · Score: 1


    The U.N. has set a goal to fund global AIDS research at $15 billion by 2005 and $20 billion by 2007. Given how distructive AIDS and HIV is to society, what portion of that tab would each of you recommend paying and why?


    Uh, all of it.

    The US pretty much pays the UNs budget, and bankrolls all of it's crazy schemes.

    --
    I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
  272. Adoption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For every mother who chooses adoption for their baby, there are on the order of 100 couples waiting to adopt. Teen pregnancy rates are falling - probably due to increased contraceptive use and an increase in "alternate" sexual activities that a whole generation considers "not sex" (see Clinton). If you're looking to adopt a child, the bottom line is: The more you're willing to pay, the faster you'll get one. It's really kinda creepy how that works. Teen pregnancy is not the problem - it's at a low and you can't realistically expect to stop unemployed poor teens from doing something that comes naturally, is encouraged by hormones, and costs nothing. Convincing them to do better for themselves, or at least allow someone in a better position to raise their child would go a long way.

  273. Five questions I'd like to see them answer by jabber01 · · Score: 1

    1. It's your birthday. Someone gives you a calfskin wallet. How do you react?

    2. You've got a little boy. He shows you his butterfly collection plus the killing jar. What do you do?

    3. You're watching television. Suddenly you realize there's a wasp crawling on your arm. How do you react?

    4. You're in a desert walking along in the sand when all of the sudden you look down, and you see a tortoise. It's crawling toward you. You reach down, you flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can't, not without your help. But you're not helping. Why is that?

    5. Describe in single words, only the good things that come into your mind. About your mother.

    --

    The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
    What you do today will cost you a day of your life

  274. Kerry's change on positions by Wolfier · · Score: 1

    Mr. Kerry, Bush has been repeatedly saying that you change your position too many times thus not suitable as a leader. Is there anything you want to say about this?

  275. dear candidates by LucidBeast · · Score: 1

    In about ten thousand years we expect that humanity has moved beyond the solar system and is ruled by a decaying empire that has its capital on a planet near center of the galaxy. What steps are you taking to ensure that this will happen? What is the current state of research (military or civilian) on positronic brains?

  276. Re:What's really really really sad... by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    I wont't vote for someone who says the same thing every day in the face of changing information. Our president can not admit that anything he does is/was wrong or ill-informed. He hsa been described as listened to all side of a debate, and then choosing a course of action, but I have yet to see him actually swayed by a position contrary to his own, regardless of evidence.

    Then again, I suppose if you agree with his platfor positions, he's the perfect candidate. I happen to disagree with many of tehm, so - like the GP, I'd probably vote for a bagel. (I like mine with cream cheese, no lox)

    I find in interesting that many people have asked for Dan Rather to resign after believing and publicizing memos which have been found to be forged, but the same people have no problem with the President invading a country on (what we now presume is) faulty intellegence which may have been cherry picked to support his desire to begin military action. Double standard? That's the way I see it. BTW - I think CBS WAS wrong to publicize the papers just to get a headline scoop.

    Oh, and for the record, there was a way that the US could have had hard data that Iraq was producing chemical WMD. Unfortunately, the program is highly classified, and the mention of its exstance might jeopardize its future operational effectiveness - as is the case with many ongoing CIA prgrams. Before we invaded, I believed that this might have been a smoking gun. Based on the reactions of several international governements, and our own governmental information, I do NOT believe we had that data, and our jusification was based on softer intellegence.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  277. A real question... by SpacePunk · · Score: 1

    I'd ask both of them why either of them should get my vote when voting in America is almost as bad as voting in the former Soviet Union. In the Soviet Union you had one candidate, one party, and no choice. In America you have two parties (yes, there are others, but they are not automatically on the ballot) of which the choice between the party candidates is like choosing wheather or not you want to be hit in the head with a hatchet or a pick axe. The methods are different, but the results are the same.

  278. #51? INTELLIGENCE REFORM by Salis · · Score: 1

    Dear Sirs,

    How would you reform the current departments of Justice, Treasury, Homeland Security, and Defense so that intelligence gathering and analysis is faster and more thorough? Specifically, what do you suggest would be the optimal agency structure to provide the fastest response to actionable intelligence and better collection of information for long term analysis?

    The 9/11 Commission Report details the enormous failings of our intelligence establishment. The system was truly "Blinking Red" and yet neither the FBI, CIA, INS, etc could find the link in the pattern. What would you specifically do to force coordination between different agencies and encourage more intelligence sharing?

    The Information Technology used by the FBI, CIA, and other agencies are woefully inadequate for current requirements. We live in the most technologically advanced country in the world and yet our government agencies do not possess this technology to protect us. Will you spend the money to give it to them?

    --
    Favorite /. tagline: "On the eighth day, God created FORTRAN." And it was good.
  279. And that's just the written transcript by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Having seen Bush trying to answer that question live, nothing in that transcript can give you the full flavor of his deer-in-the-headlight look he had at that moment. He was truly and utterly lost in a way I have never before seen in a public figure. It scared me to realize that he is in charge. He had no clue without a script.

  280. Huricanes and Bush/Kerry by ErrataMatrix · · Score: 2, Funny
  281. Re:Great question. MOD UP PLEASE by balaam's+ass · · Score: 1

    How did this get modded "Troll"?? This may be "redundant", but it's still making a viable point. Somebody's ass needs to get Meta-Moderated.

  282. My Question for the candidates (both hunters) by abner23 · · Score: 1

    Where, exactly, in the Second Amendment, does the Constitution mention guns? It says, and I quote, "keep and bear ARMS". My right to keep and bear ARMS has ALWAYS been infringed. I cannot have a Stinger, VX Gas, anything fully automatic, anything concealed... (nor should I be able to, by the way, in my worthless opinion). Hell, I can't even own a switchblade and the two of you support the "right" of the great, unwashed rabble to own GUNS? Your thoughts?

    1. Re:My Question for the candidates (both hunters) by DrMyke · · Score: 0

      1) you may own a concealed firearm if your state has the law in place, but you must go through a federal/state background check, attend a class and also qualify on a range to recieve this permit.

      2) John "switch sides" Kerry is not a hunter, more of a journalistic poser. He has voted down every bill for hunters and boted for every bill to take guns and ammunition away from the American People.

      3) im thirsty now so im going to go.

      4) Please Vote

      --

      -DrMyke
      "mmmmmmmmm, doughnuts" - H.J.Simpson; super genius
  283. Faith by Boronx · · Score: 1

    Mr. President, how has your faith guided you through these troubled times?

    1. Re:Faith by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does your faith guide you when you become a suicide bomber?

  284. Re:18-35 #16 EDUCATION by mathesius · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This question gets at what could be a fundamental difference in education policies enacted by the President.

    Will President Bush or Kerry support home schooling by insuring equal access to educational resources, athletic opportunities or facilities, funding (ala school vouchers), or tax credits?

    This question is not related to sex ed, that's true. I don't know why it got tagged that way.

    Still, this is one of the few questions to probe at general education policies.

  285. Electoral voting helps prevent local heroes... by Dr.+Zowie · · Score: 4, Insightful
    ... from becoming President without the `consent' of the rest of the nation.


    quoth the parent:


    For the sake of discussion, I will ignore the fact that the current USA system actually increases the power of high-population areas, and instead use the simplifying interpretation that rural states get a small advantage.

    You're missing the point. The high-population areas do indeed have more power than the small areas -- but they have slightly less power per unit person, which is how it should be.


    If you think of the poll as a kind of discriminator device (it is), reducing a nearly-floating-point number to a single bit via sum-and-threshold, then the electoral college clamps the output from any one geographical region. There's no practical difference between, say, a 51% majority and a 98% majority in New York City or in Los Angeles. That makes it harder for those places to dominate the election. Consider a candidate who enjoys a 98% majority in San Frangiego and Boswash, but only obtains 35% of the vote in the rest of the country (pretty dismal). In a straight-sum system, that candidate might win based on the popular vote and stress the country. Those disgruntled states might even try to secede, if the pattern repeated long enough.


    The electoral system tilts the game in favor of moderately broad support bases. You can't win the presidency without support from a much broader geographical base than would be required under the straight-sum system.

    1. Re:Electoral voting helps prevent local heroes... by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      The high-population areas do indeed have more power than the small areas -- but they have slightly less power per unit person, which is how it should be.

      No they don't. The math to prove that they don't is much to complicated to post, but you can go read it. However, that much math is above most people's heads, so we can go on pretending that rural states have a small benefit. (Also, that benefit is solely from "Effect 1", below)

      they have slightly less power per unit person, which is how it should be.

      Do you have any support for that reasoning? The rest of your post certainly doesn't. Everything else you write (regarding suppression of candidates who are only locally popular) is true- but would still be true even if Senators didn't count towards electoral votes.

      To be more specific, the Electoral College has two separate effects, both arguably creating unfairness, and either capable of being removed without upsetting the other. Effect 1 is what you call the "clamping device", which causes states to assign all of their electoral votes to one candidate. Effect 2 is the fact that each state gets electoral votes equal to (population/400000)+2, instead of just (pop/400000).

      Abolishing the Electoral College would remove both those effects at once, but reforming it could target just one or the other.

      That makes it harder for those places to dominate the election.

      Why yes, disenfranchising people does indeed make it hard for them to influence elections.

      Consider a candidate who enjoys a 98% majority in San Frangiego and Boswash, but only obtains 35% of the vote in the rest of the country

      As you know, that's a ludicrously unrealistic example. And yet, it doesn't even work... because even with a purely-popular vote, 98% of SF and BW is just 41 million people. Add in 35% of the rest of the country, and they still lose a popular election by 132 to 169.

      (pretty dismal).

      Dismal? It's only 12% less that the 47% approval that it takes to win a state today!

  286. Nothing about evolution... by kypper · · Score: 1

    Wow, that's disappointing; this is something Kerry really needs to address. With the advancement of Intelligent Design (see the latest edition of Wired or Google it) our development is being backtracked from the very basics: our children. The drive is to teach creationism in schools as a legitimate counterpart to evolution, despite the fact that it has no scientific evidence (the mathematics are flawed and skewed based on misunderstandings of macro/micro evolution), is picking up. Will kids weigh the two objectively? Hardly... they'll go with the faith they were raised on. More to the point, is it really appropriate to allow public schools to teach this considering the separation of church and state? No.

    But then, this would be an election-killer answer south of the bible belt...

  287. LOOP HOLE: Re:18-35 #22 HEALTH INSURANCE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you ever can't get insurance due to "pre-existing" conditions, simply start your own business, and then purchase a group plan. Keep in mind that your business doesn't have to make any money for the first 3 years, and that owning a business doesn't preclude you from working another full-time job.

    (in other words, you are cheating the system, which is cheating you)

    Yes, you will pay out the a**, but you will be fully insured.

    Don't like cheating the system? Feel its morally wrong to do so? Bend over, because the HMO is going to have it's way with you (oh and they aren't cheating because the lobbyists have made sure this is "legal").

  288. Benefits of the Electoral College by John_Booty · · Score: 1
    There are some legitimate reasons to dislike the Electoral College, reasons that have been talked about elsewhere on this thread. However, there some compelling benefits of the Electoral College, and a lot of people aren't even aware of them. So it's worth a recap here.
    1. Avoidance of the "Tyranny of the Majority". This sounds like a rather oxymoronic phrase at first glance. But think of a hypothetical simple, small country where 75% of the people are businessmen living in a city. And 25% of the people are farmers living in the countryside. Now suppose this hypothetical country operates its presidential elections via simple majority. What happens is that a presidential candidate in this hypothetical country does not even need to cater to the wishes of the 25% minority. While the minority's votes count, they are effectively useless because they can be easily voted down by the majority. They might as well not even have a vote at all.

      That's an extreme hypothetical example, of course, and an electoral college wouldn't completely solve it. But it is a step towards solving it. What America's electoral college does is provide an equalizer so that the smaller states' voices are not completely dwarfed by the larger states. It's the same concept behind the decision to allow every state to have two Senators, regardless of population. For example, California has about 67 times as many people as Wyoming. But it only has 18 times as many electoral votes. If you think Presidential candidates spend too much time in a few "battleground" states like California, New York, Florida, and Pennsylvania NOW... well, the situation would be even worse without the electoral college.

    2. The Electoral College is only one part of a careful system of checks and balances. The Founding Fathers DID want one branch of government (Legislative) to chosen by popular election. The legislative branch is arguably the most powerful, since only it can introduce laws and can even override the President's veto.

    3. Realistically, the winner of the popular vote STILL wins the election. It's not like the electoral college system elects wildly unpopular candidates. While I greatly dislike Bush, even I have to admit that the popular vote differential in 2000 was basically statistically significant.
    Now, you may not agree with those reasons. And there are plenty of valid reasons to dislike the electoral college. I myself would favor many reforms to the current system. However, a lot of people who oppose the electoral college do so from a very unreasoned, uneducated, kneejerk standpoint. Some facts needed to be laid down on this thread. :-)
    --

    OtakuBooty.com: Smart, funny, sexy nerds.
  289. Inciteful or insightful? by Merk · · Score: 1

    It's a major difference, if you say "inciteful" it sounds like you're saying that people thinks he incites something, say violence. In that case, people proabably don't like him. If you say "insightful" youre saying people think he's right and has great insight.

    Most of your other spelling mistakes are minor, but there are times when spelling something right is very important to convey the right meaning.

  290. The US respect their constitution too much by ThinWhiteDuke · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Here's a question: Why do you think a President ought to be chosen by popular vote?

    I dunno, maybe because that's what democracy is about. The people... vote... for their leader...

    But that's not my main point. The really interesting part of your post is the following :

    Plainly, the Founding Fathers thought otherwise

    So what? I mean of course the founding fathers were great and wise people and the constitution they wrote should be held in great respect and everything. But finding out what the founding fathers thought does not close the discussion. There are many reasons why the founding fathers could have thought that way. Maybe, at the time the constitution was framed, the objective was to bring together 13 very independant-minded states and the US of A didn't actually make much sense as a nation. Maybe the founding fathers made the best decision considering the situation of their time and since the US have changed in 2 centuries, the best solution would be different today. Maybe the founding fathers were just yielding to the political pressure of current state leaders. Or maybe it served their own political agenda. Maybe they made a mistake... They were only mortals after all...

    This quasi-religious worship of their constitution is one of the greatest mysteries I face when it comes to understanding Americans (I'm French BTW). Most Americans I know have a lot of self-confidence. They believe that whatever the opposition, they will find a way to prevail. As a society, America always question status-quo. Businesses innovate and reinvent themselves or they die. I think that Americans, maybe more than other people, have this capacity to change their way of doing things just because the world has changed and there's a better way. I really admire that.

    Yet, when it comes to the constitution, this boldness and self-confidence disappear. It's as if Americans said to themselves :"the founding fathers were better and wiser people than we'll ever be; there's no point in criticising, let alone trying to improve their work". To try a daring analogy with programming, it's like believing that Linus' code is always bug-free and the single best and most elegant solution to a problem.

    I don't know where this contradiction comes from. Maybe it's from something they teach you at school. I don't know. But I think it's worrying because it blocks progress. During the middle ages, in the chaos that followed the fall of the Roman Empire, huge chunks of human knowledge were lost. Fortunately, some books written by Greek or Roman scientists and philosophers were salvaged and cherished like the treasure they were by generations of monks. This prevented Europe from getting 2 millenia backwards. But at some point it became a 2-edged sword. There was so much respect for the Ancients that knowledge could only match them, not beat them. Noone could advance a theory beyond the point where Aristotle or Archimedes left it because it would have meant that he was better than Aristotle or Archimedes. And that was unthinkable. As a consequence (and also for a lot of other reasons), scientific progress was extremely slow during the middle ages.

    Similarly, I think that political systems should evolve and improve. I'll try another geeky analogy : the constitution is democracy's firewall; whatever the skill, wisdom and insight the founders had, the constitution is bound to have holes or vulnerabilities. More to the point, if it was adapted to the USA of the 1780's maybe it's partly obsolete today.

    I'm rereading this post and realize that I'm a bit harsh to the parent. Your post was actually insightful since it invited the reader to question his beliefs. Also it doesn't even explicitely state that the current situation is good because the founding fathers thought so. Lastly, I don't advocate dumping the US constitution or amending it thoughtlessly; I just feel that critical thought is always a good thing, even (especially) in relation to the constitution.

    --

    It would be nice to be sure of anything the way some people are of everything.
    1. Re:The US respect their constitution too much by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1
      So what?

      The point is that the electoral college was instituted for a reason. There were very cogent arguments presented for it against a popular vote. I'm not hearing anyone taking on any of those arguments here. Rather, I'm getting a lot of unsupported dogma about how a direct popular vote, being more democratic, is automatically better. I'd like people to think about why they believe it to be better. I find most often, as here, that it's simply an unquestioned assumption. Like most unquestioned assumptions it may well be faulty. But if you don't question it, you'll never find out.

      Similarly, I think that political systems should evolve and improve.

      Of course they should. That's why the Constitution includes an amendement process. The authors didn't think they were infallible, and I certainly don't think they were either.

      . Your post was actually insightful since it invited the reader to question his beliefs.

      And this, indeed, was the point.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    2. Re:The US respect their constitution too much by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      There were very cogent arguments presented for it against a popular vote. I'm not hearing anyone taking on any of those arguments here.

      Maybe if you presented one or two of those arguments, someone might address it. You know, type it in, or link to it, or something. Instead of just appealing to phantoms.

    3. Re:The US respect their constitution too much by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1

      I did that, you silly person. You don't appear to have understood it. That's not my problem.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    4. Re:The US respect their constitution too much by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      I did that, you silly person.

      That's a lie- you never made any argument. I've carefuly read ALL your posts on this topic, and none of them contains anything resembling an argument. All you've made are contradictions or the occasional appeal to authority.

      Please, just point out which one of these posts you think contains an argument.

      For reference, here's an example of someone else making an argument for your position. He doesn't support it very well, but at least he tried.

    5. Re:The US respect their constitution too much by mrlpz · · Score: 1
      I dunno, maybe because that's what democracy is about. The people... vote... for their leader...

      You mean like way the French "elected" Bonaparte ? No, that's right...he sequestered the Legislature, right ? That's right. Right.....the people got to VOTE in France too. I see. They also voted Chiraq and a string of their predecessors who support, and supply aid to a communist dictator while guising it as "humanitarian aid" ? Yeah, right, you guys have a handle on voting someone with some scruples.
      Yet, when it comes to the constitution, this boldness and self-confidence disappear. It's as if Americans said to themselves :"the founding fathers were better and wiser people than we'll ever be; there's no point in criticising, let alone trying to improve their work"
      Remind me again how many times the French Constitution had to be RE-WRITTEN from scratch ( and many others ) ? The American Constitution may not be the be all end all ( when it comes time for the final analysis ), but it certainly saved your and many other's sorry asses. It's the Constitution that, as you so mightily point out, gives most Americans that "SENSE" of "I can fucking do this !" attitude. Where did YOU think that attitude came from ? The Bible ? Sure that may have been the wellspring, after all, many of those "fallible" ( as you nicely point out ) founding fathers, were in fact, relative-speaking, religious folk. For overall, as a country, religious and secular, it's our Constitution, that gives us our strong "CONSTITUTION" when problems arise.
      But I think it's worrying because it blocks progress.
      Who's progress ? Yours ? Let's see, there aren't any more pogroms in Russia, no more concentration camps in northern and eastern Europe. No more ( that we know of ) Killing Fields in Cambodia. Now we're left with religious fundamentalists who have the notion that every sentence has to start and end with the word Jihad! And here's a little tidbit for you to chew on. Remember that Constitution you think is blocking progress, it's that same Constitution that CAN tell Christian Fundamentalists to JUST COOL YOUR JETS, if they get too far in anyone's face ( it sounds like you don't like those folks too much ). It's that same Constitution that allows you to mouth OFF within the U.S., assuming you're located within the U.S., ( I know this website is operated within the U.S. ).
      Similarly, I think that political systems should evolve and improve. .... More to the point, if it was adapted to the USA of the 1780's maybe it's partly obsolete today.
      There, I'll agree with you, but you know what, there's already a mechanism in place for that. It's called an Ammendment, and I can tell you that we've had a few of those go by. Some of them WAY overdue !

      I agree it's good to question, but you don't see trees questioning their roots. They may bend in the wind, and try to right themselves, but they stay grounded, and are stronger for it. I like to think that THAT is the proper analogy for this "quasi-religion" you ascribe American's steadfast believe in their Constitution. As a matter of fact, we don't mind if you borrow it..try it out, take it out for a spin. You might actually like it yourselves. But don't forget to change the Earl ( or High Potentate ) every so often.

    6. Re:The US respect their constitution too much by I8TheWorm · · Score: 1

      dunno, maybe because that's what democracy is about. The people... vote... for their leader...

      This is true, but since the United States is a representative federal republic, could you come up with another arguement to support popular vote?

      --
      Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
  291. And you'd be wrong by Merk · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Seriously.

    Say Osama bin Laden is hated by all of the US, and a few hundred million people in other countries like Canada, Great Britain, Australia, etc. Most of the rest of the world doesn't care much either way because he's not targeting them. So that's about half a billion people that hate him. On the other hand, for much of the muslim world, he's a hero. Pakistan alone probably has at least 50 million people who love him.

    Bush, on the other hand, has an influence on the entire globe, and had done a whole lot to get people to hate him everywhere. Remember the standoff with China in early 2001? The hatred isn't as universal as the hatred for bin Laden in the US, but even in countries which were once US allies, a lot of people hate Bush. Add to that the hundred million Americans who hate him, and I'm sure he takes the crown for the most hated person.

    The very assumption that Osama bin Laden would be the most hated person in the world just betrays a very US-centric attitude, ignorant of the rest of the planet. It's about time American started realizing that the rest of the world doesn't see things the same way they do.

    1. Re:And you'd be wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then all the talk by Muslim countries of not condoning nasty terrorist actions is false, eh? They all love the jihad and the slaughter of countless innocents in the name of their faith? Somehow I think you're the one who's wrong, fellow. I seriously doubt the Muslim world loves Bin Laden as you claim, and any rational person who loves a mass murderer...well, I can't say thats very rational. So hop off the 'US-centric POV' crap, because its a tired, worn out argument that can just as easily be applied to citizens of every country. Of course everyone's looking out for their own country's views first. Your repeating it about Americans for the 50 gazillionth time serves no point but to highlite your own prejudices.

      Seriously, how the hell can you think people love Bin Laden? I mean, honestly, its reprehensible that the world didn't condemn Hitler and Stalin more soundly for their actions, and now I see people lining up to repeat that with Bin Laden. What is wrong with some people, do they enjoy condoning mass murder?

    2. Re:And you'd be wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This also goes a long way toward addressing why hatred of the USA should largely be discounted. Our scope is simply larger.

    3. Re:And you'd be wrong by haruchai · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you'd like to read this article:
      http://www.alternet.org/story/11548/

      Mass murder is often a matter of opinion and many other cultures perceive the West and, particularly the United States as having gotten away with mass murder, for decades. So, a great many people don't see Sept 11th as a terrorist act but a long-overdue comeuppance for a perennial bully.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
  292. Military bases count as taking ground by confusednoise · · Score: 1
    Really? Did you know that the US currently maintains over 700 military bases on foreign soil? And that's just the ones the Pentagon will publicly admit.

    How is our continuing occupation of the entire island of Okinawa just "necessary to bury our dead"? S. Korea? Guantanamo Bay? Germany?

    Why is it necessary for us to maintain military presence around the world? Is there any other reason than to ensure military influence?

    Check the growth of bases in the Middle East since the 1991 Gulf War (ok, I'm too lazy to find the statistic). At the beginning of that war, we were forced to use Saudi Arabia as a launching point for the military action; today we have dozens of bases scattered throughout Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, United Arab Emirates. Think the permanent bases now being built in Iraq are going to disappear any time soon?

    So remind me again how we've "never taken any more ground than was necessary to bury our dead"?

    1. Re:Military bases count as taking ground by bofkentucky · · Score: 1

      And how many of those countries would scream bloody murder if the US annouced it was closing our bases there. The Germans are pitiching a fit over losing half of our European force in the next 10 years. As for South Korea, no party ever signed a formal truce ending the Korean war, we are now in our 51st eyar of a cease fire, but there are supposedly 4 million DPRK troops waiting across the border to burn Seoul to the ground. Take a look at the problems caused by the US closing Subic Bay to see what closing Okinawa would do.

      --
      09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
    2. Re:Military bases count as taking ground by jdschulteis · · Score: 1

      Powell's sound bite certainly doesn't stand up under scrutiny. However, neither does your claim that the US military occupies "the entire island of Okinawa"--it's more like 20%.

      As to whether the US needs the ability to project military power, you might be interested in this Cato Institute briefing, whose summary states "The real issue is what the United States commits itself to defend--and whether it is actually willing to incur the costs and risks required to fulfill such commitments."

  293. 18-35 #NEXTVAL balance for negativity by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 2, Interesting


    For both candidates: you campaign has placed a lot of focus on your opponent's shortcomings, and of characteristics and behaviors not directly related to political competence.

    In contrast to that, what qualities and acts from your opponent's political career do you admire and respect most?

  294. Have Your Debate Questions Sent to the Moderators! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Hey I noticed this site Media for Democracy is collecting questions from people and hand delivering them to debate moderators Jim Lehrer (PBS), Charles Gibson (ABC), and Bob Schieffer (CBS).

    www.mediafordemocracy.us/campaign/debates

    They wrote me and said they've already collected several thousand so far and are still accepting questions. Pretty cool, huh?

  295. Too easy, couldn't resist by ThinWhiteDuke · · Score: 1

    We've fought in wars all over the world and never took any more ground than was necessary to bury our dead.

    Wow, Powell must be expecting huge casualties in Iraq, considering the size of the country.

    --

    It would be nice to be sure of anything the way some people are of everything.
  296. Soilders knew the risks when they signed up by KalvinB · · Score: 1

    A soilder joined the service knowing the risks. They agreed to put their life on the line so others wouldn't have to.

    Liberals act like people who support war don't know how horrible it is. Because after all, if we knew how horrible it is how could we possibly support it?

    We know how horrible it is, and we're grateful for those who serve so we don't have to.

    ""This is important enough to me that I think a bunch of people I've never met should be sent to die while I sit at home risk-free"?"

    reduction to absurdity. Nobody is sending the soilders off to die. We send them off to do their duty knowing that some may die. There's a very large difference.

    It's no different than calling 911 and expecting a fireman to jump into your burning house to save your kid. Or expecting the cops to come put their lives in danger to come help you. We know that fireman and policemen may die because of a 911 call and yet we still dial the numbers when we're in trouble.

    It's a rediculous idea to pretend that those who agreed to protect and serve shouldn't be depended on by those who havn't signed on to the profession.

    Those who can't should repspect and support those who do.

    "in the case of war, there are compelling arguments that they shouldn't"

    No such arguments actually exist. If they did I'd imagine you'd at least put one of them in your post.

    Ben

    1. Re:Soilders knew the risks when they signed up by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

      A soilder joined the service knowing the risks.

      Circumstances have shown that to be untrue. Confidential interviews with privates throughout the Army have shown that they didn't expect to be policing Iraq.

      Even more importantly, the men who signed onto the Army National Guard absolutely didn't think they'd be ordered into Iraq to reinforce MPs. Their recruiters said "1 month a year, and you'll be called up in case of a national emergency". Well, their nation had no emergency, so they were called up to go protect a hostile enemy power. Did they know those risks?

      We know how horrible it is, and we're grateful for those who serve so we don't have to.

      Maybe we could demonstrate HOW grateful by keeping them out of unimportant, high-risk, unresolvable quagmires?

  297. Immigration and Family Reunification by einhverfr · · Score: 1

    With all due respect, I don't think this has anything to do with the parent question-- i.e. the issue of family reunification and our current system.

    The real issue is that perminant residents who have immigrated legally may not have the ability to bring spouses, children, etc. with them. The laws provide for petitions for allowing spouses etc. to immigrate too but the BCIS is heavily backlogged (the wait is measured in *years*).

    Let me tell you a story. Some may recall that I used to work at Microsoft. Immigration issues of my wife are actually why I finally left. I am a birthright American and my wife is from Indonesia. I filed the petition with the BCIS when she was my fiance. We then had a marriage cerimony in Indonesia but did not file the legal paperwork because this would have invalidated the petition.

    During that visit, she became pregnant. I returned to the US, and returned to work. Things were difficult being apart, but I continued to try to work things through the system. THe BCIS estimated that she would be able to come to the US by about the 6th month of her pregnancy. But by that time, the backlog had extended further, and now we were expecting another six months!

    After several calls to the office of my Representative and to the American Embassy in Indonesia, I quit my job at Microsoft, took out most of my savings, and moved to Indonesia. I was able to get a work permit through a friend of my father-in-law, but the contract was just for show-- I had no income for the next six months. We did, however, file the marriage paperwork, and then file a new petition through the Embassy (which I could do because I had a work permit and so was technically a resident of Indonesia), though we waited until after our son was born to file this. The petition only took a month to be approved, and only another month to get an interview.

    These backlogs on legal immigration are causing real hardships for families. Congress actually recognized this when they passed the Legal Immigration Family Equity Act of 1999 which was intended to address the backlogs of these petitions (i.e. if an American gets married overseas, it would 1-2 years to get the immigration visa, but a fiancee was able to come to the US at that point within three months). Once again these backlogs are becoming a problem and I think that Congress needs to look at the issue. These new backlogs, of course, really got going after Sept. 11th.

    This is not a Rep. or Dem. issue. It is an issue of family values in the truest and least prejudicial sense-- i.e. that family is important and such harm inflicted to families by the governments inability to reasonably impliment the protections that they have in place can do no good and might harm our society.

    --

    LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  298. Re:insane.... by fishbowl · · Score: 1

    "Id like to hear a SANE response as to why it shouldnt."

    It's specified that way in the Constitution, making it part of the most fundamental basis of the Republic.

    If you don't like it, persuade your Congress (who *ARE* elected on majority vote!) to pass a Constitutional Amendment to alter the way presidents are elected.

    Personally, I would rather push for having State Legislatures elect the presidential electors directly, while working to ensure that the Legislatures are elected cleanly, in fair and accountable at-large elections.

    The Constitution allows the states to do that.

    --
    -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  299. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL: Canadian commentary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In Canada women get up to 17 weeks job protected maternity/pregnancy leave. Then there are 35-37 weeks of job protected parental leave (available to men and women).

    Lo and behold our economy has not crashed.

    Employers do not pay employees for this time off. All employees and employers pay into federally regulated Employment Insurance. When an employee (and there are several requirements regarding work and contributions) takes maternity or parental leave, EI provides some income replacement (though nowhere close to even 75%) while employers protect their job until they return (usually by hiring temps on contract) and maintain their benefits.

    I know this because I'm in Human Resources and our company of approx. 500 usually has at least 5 people off at any given time.

    Takes a little rejigging, doesn't cost us much, and there are no significant problems or barriers (and we get to keep skilled employees happy and on staff).

    And that's without looking at the societal benefits of more involved parenting.

  300. Re:Gateway Drugs? Tobacco and Alcohol. by BayBlade · · Score: 1
    The problem there isn't the dealer per se. Its getting used to the mindset that the repricussions of breaking a law and not getting caught are marginal, and having done it once, it becomes easier in the future.

    While growing it oneself is MUCH easier to justify ethically (i.e. not spending one's money to further a marajuana syndicate) the bottom line is, the law is being broken and someone caught growning it will be demonized (by the courts and media) even moreso than someone spending money to buy a fix from a cartel.

    --

    The key difference between a Programmer and a Senior Programmer is that one of them is Mexican.

  301. What is real scary about this entire topic... by The_Real_MrRabbit · · Score: 1

    is the following: 1. The mindset that the government is who we are to depend upon to solve all our ills beyond those specifically spelled out in the constitution... 2. The the mindset that somehow we owe or should play a leading role in UN and other global orgs. 3. The mindset that we are a democracy - we are not... 4. The mindset that government should be the arbitrer of how we live our private daily lives... 5. The almost total absence of questions regarding the illegal alien problem, insecure borders, and the families of H1-Bs families being allowed to use taxpayer provided services - and the existence of H1-Bs themselves. 6. The almost total absence of questions regarding the legality of the income tax, the fraud of the 16th Amendment, and the fiat system we currently operate under. Hell, lop in Social Security while we are at it. 7. The total absence of questions regarding the very clearly worded 2nd Amendment and the continued assault upon it as well as the 4th Amendment. 8. etc.... Instead all we get is a constant train of "defining marriage", "AIDs", "the electoral college", many of which are driven by and are from the agenda of the Socialist and Communist's of America...many of which are hiding behind labels such as, "MoveOn.Org, NOW, Greenpeace, The Green Party, The Sierra Club, People for the American Way, Mecha, etc., etc.," Our Constitution and our rights and our national soveriegnty are under daily assault and those are the questions submitted? And yes...no electronic voting of any kind should exist in my honest opinion. =8-)

  302. Explanation by notcreative · · Score: 1

    I'm not trying to troll, I am honestly curious. Personally, I don't know the answer. I wonder if either candidate knows. If neither knows the answer, why don't they know? Is it unimportant?

  303. medicaid/medicare/s by einhverfr · · Score: 1

    Edit to change medicaid (health coverage for impoverished Americans) to medicare (health coverage for seniors).

    --

    LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  304. Re:18-35 #33 MEDICAL (correction) by Wateshay · · Score: 1

    Given the sad state of our inner city schools, I'm not sure that typo qualifies as incorrect.

    --

    "If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for everyone else."

  305. Cabinet by nyri · · Score: 1

    I'm an outsider to your election, but I think you should ask:
    Who are you going to appoint to your cabinet? If you hasn't made decisions could you please reveal your short list.

  306. Re:What's really really really sad... by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

    I don't think the CBS issue is quite the double standard. We were given intelligence from several trusted sources that said Saddam had WMDs. We all know he had WMDs becuase he had used them repeatedly against Kurds in the north of Iraq. I think, and this is just my opinion based on what I believe is most realistically the case, that we just spent way too much time cooperating with the UN and that gave Saddam plenty of time to move the bulk of his stuff out of the country, probably to Syria. We will never know what was in the convoys of trucks that our sattelites photographed crossing into Syria in the weeks before hostilities began, but it doesn't take a brain surgeon or a degree from Harvard to figure it out. Unfortunately that is purely circumstantial evidence.

    CBS, on the other hand, has been shown to have colluded with the Kerry campaign to manufacture the documents prior to their airing. Joe Lockhart even admitted on national television that he had contacted the Kerry camp about the memos two weeks before they were first aired on Rather's program. Even the man who admittedly forged the documents has said that he warned CBS that their authenticity could probably not be verified. CBS went with it anyway. Nobody was casting serious doubts on our Intel before we went into Iraq, except for France and Germany, whose financial ties to Iraq alone are enough to discredit their concerns.

    Like I said, there are things about the Bush admin that I do not like, like Patriot II, CAPPS, etc... but at the same time I am not going to cut off my nose to spite my face. The things that I am talking about Bush saying over and over again are things like "It was right to go into Iraq" (which I agree with... I think we should have taken him out the first time, but our agreements with the other arab nations before GW1 prevented that), his constant views on tax relief, and so on. He has also admitted mistakes. He admitted that we underestimated the insurgency. He has admitted that we probably do not have enough troops there. He has admitted that it could have been planned better - knowing full well that the media would try to crucify him for it. Gotta admire that..

    I am anxiously awaiting the Wednesday debates. I would definitely like to hear what the candidates have to say. I am hoping for straightforward and direct answers to the questions, but expecting a lot of tapdancing. We'll see how it goes.

  307. Re:18-35 #8 DRUG POLICY by PMuse · · Score: 1

    ...the current President himself once stated, "I believe each state can choose that decision as they so choose,"...

    I urge you not to use the above quote. It's fun enough to skewer a supposedly pro-states-rights candidate on his party's love of imposing conservatism at a federal level. Using a slip-of-the-tongue quote like this makes us seem cheap. Please crop the quote to:

    ...the current President himself once stated, "I believe each state can choose that decision,"...

    --
    "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
  308. Someone to beat by djublonskopf · · Score: 1

    The problem with this suggestion is that we are no longer in the 1960s. We didn't go to the moon because we would be better off there than in, say, Wyoming . . . it was a space "race", and we had someone very clear and visible who we were racing against . . . the Russians. We had to beat the Russians. It was wholly symbolic and contributed very little to the greater good of mankind.

    Presidents have repeatedly tried to pull off the same kind of "call to the nation" since Kennedy, always choosing goals much higher-minded than being able to hit golf balls in 1/6 g. Jimmy Carter, in his "Malaise" speech that likely cost him what chance he had left of a second term, actually called for pursuing an energy policy that would free us from dependence on Middle Eastern oil. But we weren't "racing" anybody to get off the oil, so nobody cared, and it didn't take.

    President Bush has tried to make several calls, on of which was to put a man on Mars. But nobody else is anywhere close to putting a man on Mars, so there isn't much enthusiasm in the US of A, either. Until China has Taikonauts en route to Phobos, I doubt anyone in the United States is going to see a compelling need to get worked up over seeing Old Glory planted on Olympic Mons.

    And the same principle applies, I think, to alternative fuels. If the Russians had figured out a way to make soy fuels cheaper than oil and were two years away from being able to outpace us in manufacturing and commerce, the whole country would have risen up and found a way to power cars with nothing but Capitalism (yes, the immaterial concept).

    And then sold those cars to the Russians. But until we have an antithesis who might get ahead of us in this area, I am pretty sure nobody's going to care.

  309. War on Terror by randyflood · · Score: 1


    For both candidates. In terms of our international relations, the war on Iraq has been a dismal failure. It is pretty clear to everyone that Sadam did not have weapons of mass destruction. In addition, by hastily invading Iraq, we have aliented our allies whose support we could really use now as we struggle with other contries such as North Korea, Libia, Iran, and even still in Iraq itself. As President, how will you seek to improve our foreign relations with other countries so that we can more effectively use international cooperation to meet the goals of our foreign policy?

    --
    Randy.Flood@RHCE2B.COM
  310. Re:18-35 #8 DRUG POLICY by Datafage · · Score: 1

    So as long as the medical marijuana is homegrown you believe the federal government should have no power over it?

    --

    Nicotine free Amish .sig.

  311. Re:Minor nitpick - caffeine addiction. by billstewart · · Score: 1

    Caffeine's not addictive? You should try drinking as much coffee as I used to and then stop and enjoy the withdrawal symptoms. It's not as addictive as tobacco or crack, and it can easily be used at levels that don't cause addiction in most people, but it can be quite addictive if you use it that way. Sometimes when I've been using it and stop, it's just a bit tough waking up in the morning and staying awake late in the afternoon, but I've had times that I've gotten two weeks of severe withdrawal headaches and needed to start the day with tylenol instead.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  312. NEW QUESTION: 527s as party-busters by PMuse · · Score: 1

    Are you excited by the fact that several of the 527 organizations have more money than any third party has had in many election cycles? What are the Democratic and Republican parties doing to prepare for the day when a 527 feels its issues aren't being addressed by the candidate of its current party and decides to use its war chest to give an enormous boost to an independent candidate who truly believes in that 527's issues?

    --
    "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
  313. Re:18-35 #11 DRAFT - ridiculous question by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 1

    they don't care about their fellow soldiers' welfare (because they are there against their will)

    That's a dirty lie that'll get your teeth knocked out in a lot of places. Draftees do worse because they had less dedicated training, not because they don't care for the lives of their teammates. (If anything, they care about each other too much, and are more likely to put their safety over the mission).

    The reason professional soldiers do better is because, as volunteers, they are expected to stay longer, so more training time can be invested in them. (And, the trainers have more freedom to wash-out the incompetent)

    We have plenty of volunteers these days,

    If we have plenty, then why is the National Guard in Iraq? That is not their mission. The Army is supposed to fight in foreign countries, with reinforcement from the Reserves if needed. The National Guard should only be activated for missions regarding imminent danger to the USA itself.

    Aside from Iraq, which was the stupidest thing Bush could've done

    Oh, I could imagine 2 or 3 potentially stupider things. Attacking the Axis of Evil in order of their WMD power, for example... that would've been much worse.

    Still, Bush's argument that the insurgents attacking soldiers in Iraq would instead have become terrorists striking the USA just doesn't hold up. The required skill-sets are too different. To infiltrate the USA undetected, you need a level of language and cultural skills that the foreign fighters coming into Iraq just can't muster.

  314. No Prob, I was ranting anyway :-) by billstewart · · Score: 1

    What I want _will_ unfortunately take a long time to achieve, because too many people are way too hung up in the Prohibition power trip.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  315. and yet by TheHonestTruth · · Score: 1
    The portion of the brain that connects gay male's brain hemispheres is larger than an average males, being closer to a female's connector. Explain that?

    People don't switch sexual orientations all the time. Sorry. If they do, its not because they choose to be gay. Often it is because they come from broken homes and don't know who they are.

    Where is the gene that says my IQ will be X? Oh wait, there isn't one. Well maybe there is, but scientists haven't found it yet which could explain why decades of research haven't found a gay gene yet either. Kinda blows holes in your gener theory

    -truth

    --

    I had a steady B+ in my AI class until I failed the Turing test...

  316. My Question by fork420 · · Score: 1

    I would like to record the presidential debates with my TiVo.
    Current technology allows me to encode recorded TV programs onto a DVD that I can show to my friends for less than $1 per DVD.

    Does it bother you that I have to worry whether it is legal for me to do this?

  317. Re:WTF? What about the national debt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If we switched to Metric dollars, the conversion rate would erase the national debt in nothing flat.

    Also there are other benefits: "yeah, baby, I got nine centimeters!"
    Could you say the same with inches? I don't think so.

  318. True by Pan+T.+Hose · · Score: 1

    I'd vote for a bagel over Bush just to see if it could run the country better, and even in that case I'd be more hopeful and optimistic than I am now.

    funny, i said roughly the same thing about al gore last election, and look where it's gotten us....

    Very true. Such a logic--and nothing else--is the very reason of the existance of two party system in the US. "I hate one guy so I'll vote for the second one, never mind there are more of them than only two. I will keep voting for 'the other guy' while waiting for the end of two party system." Wrong. The two party system is the result of voting, not vice versa. Anyone who is concerned about it should vote for the third most popular candidate, no matter who he is. Will he win? No. But after few elections "the third guy" might have enough votes so other people might start considering voting for the candidate they would like to win, not for the one who is most likely to beat the one who they would hate to win. This is the only way to finally end the two party farce but it may need a decade or two to gain momentum. People should never assume that voting for their prefered candidate is "throwing their vote away" because that is the very essence of democracy, while the "throwing vote away" nonsense is just the propaganda of two major parties, because they are the only people who benefit from the status quo. Please keep that in mind. By voting for "the lesser of two evils" you are really throwing your vote away. Just once, instead of voting for the less evil of two, try voting for someone good. I know that voting for someone else might be a hard concept for anyone who is used to having a "choice" between Coke and Pepsi or McDonald's and Burger King but The People have to learn that "you can chose any candidate as long as it is one of those two" is only an illusion of real choice, just enough to make people feel good but not enough to have any real influence. This is extremely important to understand if we ever want to change anything.

    --
    Sincerely,
    Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
    "Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
  319. Re:18-35 #21 Gays and Lesbians have equal rights by trigggl · · Score: 1

    They also have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex.

    --
    Ops, I shuld have usd the prevuwe but in.
  320. Re:WTF? What about the national debt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's just make sure NASA doesn't do the conversion for us...

  321. 18 - 35 #??? Health reform by vigyanik · · Score: 1

    Last year a sweeping Medicare reform bill was signed into Law. This year, health care costs for families jumped by more than 11% and the white house itself has estimated that costs will increase by another 11% next year. My question to both candidates: what will you do to ensure that health care becomes more affordable to Americans?

  322. Another question by notcreative · · Score: 1

    Why are we dying to live if we're just living to die?

  323. It's about cheating, not the electoral college by quintessent · · Score: 1

    "Stealing the election" has nothing to do with the electoral college, which as the agreed upon system for the election. Bush stole the election largely through the actions Jeb Bush and his employees in Florida who undertook a number of actions to keep Gore-friendly populations from having a fair shot at voting.

    And it was also stolen because of the actions of the Supreme Court. First it was, "well, ok, stop the recount, because if the recount shows Gore won, then that will certainly damage Bush's mandate to govern. Then a few days later it was, "well we've just plum run out of time to do a recount now. Maybe if we had started a few days ago, hehe." A one-justice majority voted in these two decisions--a majority that included Dick Cheney's duck hunting buddy who somehow didn't see the need to recuse himself.

    The funny thing about it was I actually voted for Bush (a mistake I won't repeat). But even as a Bush voter, the Supreme Court's way of deciding things made no sense to me.

  324. I've got one Kerry can ask bush.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Mr. Bush, please answer this: you can you understand anything with your head shoved up your ass so far to be unable to hear or see anything?"

  325. ECONOMY: MINIMUM WAGE by c0d3h4x0r · · Score: 1

    In my opinion, minimum wage should be high enough such that in a family of four (two adults and two children) in which only one adult works full time (40 hours/week), the family is able to afford all of its basic health care, food, clothing, shelter, and transportation needs within the locale in which they live. But today minimum wage is so low that even if both adults work more than 40 hours a week at minimum wage jobs, they still cannot afford these basic needs in their locale -- plus, their children are then neglected and the parents must seek out other (often expensive) arragments such as day-care. Do you promise that if you were elected, you would fight to at least quadruple minimum wage, and to then push for legislation requiring it to grow proportionately from that point forth with the overall growth of the economy?

    --
    Moderator hint: a comment is neither "Flamebait" nor "Troll" if it is true.
  326. SEPARATION OF MONEY AND STATE by c0d3h4x0r · · Score: 1

    As everyone knows, our country is run by rich special interests, not by an equal and democratic voicing of the citizenry's wishes. This is due to actions such as lobbying and campaign financing. I believe there should be a complete separation of money and state, akin to the separate of church and state. Money should be absolutely excluded from all parts of the campaigning or legislative processes. Do you promise that if you were elected, you would immediately move to make lobbying and campaign contributions federal crimes, and in their place establish an equal and fair system of campaign opportunity via federally-mandated media broadcast time for all candidates, etc?

    --
    Moderator hint: a comment is neither "Flamebait" nor "Troll" if it is true.
  327. EQUALITY: LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL by c0d3h4x0r · · Score: 1

    From gay marriage and abortion to school prayer and stem cell research, there are numerous issues that boil down to an issue of fairness, equality, and justice. Mr. Bush, you actually want to explicitly encode discrimination and your own personal religious views into the US Constitution. And Mr. Kerry, you are too afraid of appearing unpopular to stand up and fight for those who are being denied (or are about to lose) their equal rights. Why won't either of you stand up and fight (on all issues in all cases) for equality, fairness, and justice? As president, don't you think it's your job to do that, even when you personality disagree with or dislike the minority groups you are obligated to protect?

    --
    Moderator hint: a comment is neither "Flamebait" nor "Troll" if it is true.
  328. EDUCATIONAL REFORM by c0d3h4x0r · · Score: 1

    The real problem with our public educational system is that the mini-society naturally formed by students within a school is in direct opposition to the learning process. The only meaningful educational reform I have seen in my lifetime is the recent nation-wide trend toward anti-bullying programs, but even this does not go far enough. If elected, exactly what would you do to dismantle the natural social ecosystems present today in our public schools and replace them with an enforced social structure conducive to education? And because the absence of chaos is still not enough to motivate students to learn material they see as irrelevant, would you be willing to reform our public school system so that students are paid by the school for academic achievement? After all, most adults only get up and go to work at jobs they dislike because they are paid to do it, so why should we expect any different from children?

    --
    Moderator hint: a comment is neither "Flamebait" nor "Troll" if it is true.