To some (myself included) this is the first we've heard of this type of thing. That someone other bill in the past addressed some of these issues is new information.
Hmm, perhaps if more energy had been put into their support by the people who are doing the pandering now, or by the oh-so-cool DailyKos?
DailyKos gets overenthused at times, but Kos himself commented strongly hereagainst chasing conspiracy theories.
While there may be overlap, even you admit that there is new stuff in the Clinton-Boxer proposal. Are your objections to the new stuff? (I've yet to read either HAVA or The full Clinton proposal but will do so now that I know about them)
Half the fun of having a PC is tweaking it and tuning it to get the most out of it.
Half the fun of owning a toaster oven is modifying the heating coils so you can smelt your own iron.
Half the fun of owning a ceiling fan is tweaking the motor so it can suck cats off the floor.
Most people however buy things to use them. Macs are very usable, that's why people buy them.
If elegant design offends you, just rip the guts out of a Mac and epoxy them to a piece of sheet steel. You'll have all of the functionality without any of the prissiness you seem to associate with good design. And...it'll look right at home in your garage next to that disassembled carburetor : )
Comparing Apple prices to Dell (the number 1 PC maker in the world) it becomes immediately clear that except for two configurations of the "Dimensions" line, Macs are significantly cheaper (by $496 to $2085) than comparably configured Dells. If anyone is doing the raping, it's Dell, and it made them the largest computer maker in the world!
Synchronizing the systems:
Comparably priced speakers were added to the Mac, Precision 530 and Precision 340 systems so that all would have the same configuration as the Dell Dimension systems. ( which automatically come with speakers )
Optical Logitech mice were added to all Dell systems to match the Mac which ships with an optical mouse.
V.90 modem cards were added to all Dell systems to match the Mac which automatically ships with an internal modem.
3 Year AppleCare Protection Plan was added to Mac configurations to match the standard 3 year Dell protection plan.
All other user configurable hardware ( except processors ) were selected to match point for point between the Macs and the Dells.
Where possible, optional add-on software ( such as virus protection, Office Suites etc... ) has been excluded to acheive a more accurate comparison.
None of the systems were priced with monitors.
Apple Power Mac G4 ( tower, dual Processor )
Mac OS 10.2 ( Juaguar )
2 GB PC2700 DDR SDRAM
120 GB Ultra ATA drive
SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce4 Titanium
56K internal modem
Standard keyboard
Apple 1 button optical mouse
Apple Pro Speakers ( $59 )
3 Year AppleCare Protection Plan $3,757 ( Dual 867 MHz PowerPC G4 )
$5,057 ( Dual 1.25 GHz PowerPC G4 )
Dell Precision 530 series ( tower, dual Processor )
Microsoft Windows XP Professional
2 GB PC800 ECC RDRAM
120 GB 7200RPM IDE Drive
DVD+RW+R Combo Drive
nVidia, Quadro4 900XGL, 128MB, VGA/DVI
V.90 PCI Data/Fax Controllerless Modem
Standard Keyboard
Logitech 2 Button optical mouse
Harman Kardon HK-395 Speakers ( $49 )
3 Year Parts + Onsite Labor $5,593 ( Dual 1.8 GHz Xeon ) - $1,836 more than low end dual Mac
$7,142 ( Dual 2.4 GHz Xeon ) - $2,085 more than high end dual Mac
Dell Precision 340 series ( tower, single Processor )
Microsoft Windows XP Professional
2 GB PC800 ECC RDRAM
120 GB 7200RPM IDE Drive
DVD+RW+R Combo Drive
nVidia, Quadro4 900XGL, 128MB, VGA/DVI
V.90 PCI Data/Fax Controllerless Modem
Standard Keyboard
Logitech 2 Button optical mouse
Harman Kardon HK-395 Speakers ( $49 )
3 Year Parts + Onsite Labor $4,754 ( 1.7 GHz Pentium 4 ) - $997 more than low end dual Mac
$5,553 ( 2.53 GHz Pentium 4 ) - $496 more than high end dual Mac
Dell Dimension 8200 series ( mini-tower, single processor )
Microsoft Windows XP Professional
2 GB PC800 ECC RDRAM
120 GB 7200RPM IDE Drive
DVD+RW+R Combo Drive
nVidia, Quadro4 900XGL, 128MB, VGA/DVI
V.90 PCI Data/Fax Controllerless Modem
Standard Keyboard
Logitech 2 Button optical mouse
Harman Kardon HK-395 Speakers ( included )
3 Year Parts + Onsite Labor $3,526 ( Single 2.0 GHz Pentium 4 ) - $231 less than low end dual Mac
$3,886 ( Single 2.53 GHz Pentium 4 ) - $1,171 less than high end dual Mac
I don't have to show you the numbers. It's absolutely logical.
Arguments can be internally consistent and still be completely wrong. Falling
back on "It's absolutely logical." isn't the least bit convincing unless you prove
the base assumptions are correct (which you haven't, no data of any kind)
And your references to a questionable report written by liberal economists
for the liberal EPI think-tank is hardly "proof" of your position.
I'll concede half a point on this one. I looked into it and the founding members of EPI are all
Democrats. I'll withold half a point though as they are a long way from fringe liberal
quacks. Every one has a list of accomplishments as long as your arm and each has served at
one time or another as advisors to presidents or legislators in Congress. And unless you're
saying that all Democrats are by definition quacks, you'll have to give me the 1/2 point.
So why won't it work? $100k per year is a rediculous mininum wage? What about $50k?
What about $30k? At what point does it stop being rediculous? At what point will companies
either go bankrupt because they can't pay the minimum wage, or will have to let people go
so that they CAN pay the minimum wage to those who are left?
The average minimum wage increment over the last 40 years has been 26 cents.
.26 * 40 hours/week = $10.40
If a company goes bankrupt by paying workers an additional $10.40/worker/week, their
profit margin is so razor-thin thay they aren't really viable anyway.
Despite liberals' attempts to try to reject simple economic principles, if we can
admit that with a 5 cent minimum wage virtually everyone would be employed while with a
$100k minimum wage the system would collapse, then you have just agreed with me--and rejected
the conclusions of "Bernstein and Schmitt (1998)."
Re boldface: Not at all. While I admittedly haven't read "Bernstein and Schmitt (1998)",
I would wager that the increments they are advocating are primarilary to preserve the buying
power of the minimum wage and to offset devaluation caused by inflation. This devaluation
requires that the wage hike be keyed to current buying power rather than some nice arbitrary
amount like 5 cents.
It's hard to argue with some liberals that produce "studies" written by liberal "pr
Produce a study written by conservatives. Liberals don't have a monopoly on PR
In the spirit of bipartainship check out the following link paying particular attention to the last paragraph.
The article presents a very balanced view of this whole issue (pro and con) and at the very least
proves that the effect of raising of the minimum wage is not nearly so cut and dried as you have been
arguing.
Increases in the mininum wage WILL increase unemployment.
Show me the numbers.
Your arguments are basically just logical constructs and as any scientist could tell you, very frequently hard data contradicts what was assumed to be logical.
In support of my logical construct, check out this snippet:
Will the proposed increase cause job losses among low-wage workers? Opponents of minimum wage increases frequently argue that the policy is misguided, since it prices low-wage workers out of the labor market, forcing employers to lay them off after the increase takes effect. This claim has been carefully studied by labor economists interested in testing the actual impact of increases in the minimum wage among low-wage workers. This research, summarized in Bernstein and Schmitt (1998), has generally found the job-loss effect to be either small or nonexistent. The estimates from this literature unequivocally show that the benefits of minimum wage increases to low-wage workers and their families far outweigh the costs.
The most recent increase in the minimum wage -- the $0.90 increase phased in over the 1996-97 period -- is a case in point. The study noted above examined the short-term effects of the increase and found that the policy had its intended effect: it raised the wages of low-wage workers from low-income families without leading to job losses.
Slashdot Mirror
Hmm, perhaps if more energy had been put into their support by the people who are doing the pandering now, or by the oh-so-cool DailyKos?
DailyKos gets overenthused at times, but Kos himself commented strongly hereagainst chasing conspiracy theories.
While there may be overlap, even you admit that there is new stuff in the Clinton-Boxer proposal. Are your objections to the new stuff? (I've yet to read either HAVA or The full Clinton proposal but will do so now that I know about them)
Half the fun of owning a toaster oven is modifying the heating coils so you can smelt your own iron.
Half the fun of owning a ceiling fan is tweaking the motor so it can suck cats off the floor.
Most people however buy things to use them. Macs are very usable, that's why people buy them.
If elegant design offends you, just rip the guts out of a Mac and epoxy them to a piece of sheet steel. You'll have all of the functionality without any of the prissiness you seem to associate with good design. And...it'll look right at home in your garage next to that disassembled carburetor : )
Comparing Apple prices to Dell (the number 1 PC maker in the world) it becomes immediately clear that except for two configurations of the "Dimensions" line, Macs are significantly cheaper (by $496 to $2085) than comparably configured Dells. If anyone is doing the raping, it's Dell, and it made them the largest computer maker in the world!
Synchronizing the systems:
Comparably priced speakers were added to the Mac, Precision 530 and Precision 340 systems so that all would have the same configuration as the Dell Dimension systems. ( which automatically come with speakers )
Optical Logitech mice were added to all Dell systems to match the Mac which ships with an optical mouse.
V.90 modem cards were added to all Dell systems to match the Mac which automatically ships with an internal modem.
3 Year AppleCare Protection Plan was added to Mac configurations to match the standard 3 year Dell protection plan.
All other user configurable hardware ( except processors ) were selected to match point for point between the Macs and the Dells.
Where possible, optional add-on software ( such as virus protection, Office Suites etc... ) has been excluded to acheive a more accurate comparison.
None of the systems were priced with monitors.
Apple Power Mac G4 ( tower, dual Processor )
Mac OS 10.2 ( Juaguar ) 2 GB PC2700 DDR SDRAM
120 GB Ultra ATA drive
SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce4 Titanium
56K internal modem
Standard keyboard
Apple 1 button optical mouse
Apple Pro Speakers ( $59 )
3 Year AppleCare Protection Plan
$3,757 ( Dual 867 MHz PowerPC G4 )
$5,057 ( Dual 1.25 GHz PowerPC G4 )
Dell Precision 530 series ( tower, dual Processor )
Microsoft Windows XP Professional
2 GB PC800 ECC RDRAM
120 GB 7200RPM IDE Drive
DVD+RW+R Combo Drive
nVidia, Quadro4 900XGL, 128MB, VGA/DVI
V.90 PCI Data/Fax Controllerless Modem
Standard Keyboard
Logitech 2 Button optical mouse
Harman Kardon HK-395 Speakers ( $49 )
3 Year Parts + Onsite Labor
$5,593 ( Dual 1.8 GHz Xeon ) - $1,836 more than low end dual Mac
$7,142 ( Dual 2.4 GHz Xeon ) - $2,085 more than high end dual Mac
Dell Precision 340 series ( tower, single Processor )
Microsoft Windows XP Professional
2 GB PC800 ECC RDRAM
120 GB 7200RPM IDE Drive
DVD+RW+R Combo Drive
nVidia, Quadro4 900XGL, 128MB, VGA/DVI
V.90 PCI Data/Fax Controllerless Modem
Standard Keyboard
Logitech 2 Button optical mouse
Harman Kardon HK-395 Speakers ( $49 )
3 Year Parts + Onsite Labor
$4,754 ( 1.7 GHz Pentium 4 ) - $997 more than low end dual Mac
$5,553 ( 2.53 GHz Pentium 4 ) - $496 more than high end dual Mac
Dell Dimension 8200 series ( mini-tower, single processor )
Microsoft Windows XP Professional
2 GB PC800 ECC RDRAM
120 GB 7200RPM IDE Drive
DVD+RW+R Combo Drive
nVidia, Quadro4 900XGL, 128MB, VGA/DVI
V.90 PCI Data/Fax Controllerless Modem
Standard Keyboard
Logitech 2 Button optical mouse
Harman Kardon HK-395 Speakers ( included )
3 Year Parts + Onsite Labor
$3,526 ( Single 2.0 GHz Pentium 4 ) - $231 less than low end dual Mac
$3,886 ( Single 2.53 GHz Pentium 4 ) - $1,171 less than high end dual Mac
Congratulations! Be sure to let us know when you learn how blink without concentrating.
Let's take it offline, it's easier than having to navigate back here and do all that html formatting kentozier@yahoo.com
I don't have to show you the numbers. It's absolutely logical.
Arguments can be internally consistent and still be completely wrong. Falling back on "It's absolutely logical." isn't the least bit convincing unless you prove the base assumptions are correct (which you haven't, no data of any kind)
And your references to a questionable report written by liberal economists for the liberal EPI think-tank is hardly "proof" of your position.
I'll concede half a point on this one. I looked into it and the founding members of EPI are all Democrats. I'll withold half a point though as they are a long way from fringe liberal quacks. Every one has a list of accomplishments as long as your arm and each has served at one time or another as advisors to presidents or legislators in Congress. And unless you're saying that all Democrats are by definition quacks, you'll have to give me the 1/2 point.
So why won't it work? $100k per year is a rediculous mininum wage? What about $50k? What about $30k? At what point does it stop being rediculous? At what point will companies either go bankrupt because they can't pay the minimum wage, or will have to let people go so that they CAN pay the minimum wage to those who are left?
The average minimum wage increment over the last 40 years has been 26 cents.
If a company goes bankrupt by paying workers an additional $10.40/worker/week, their profit margin is so razor-thin thay they aren't really viable anyway.
Despite liberals' attempts to try to reject simple economic principles, if we can admit that with a 5 cent minimum wage virtually everyone would be employed while with a $100k minimum wage the system would collapse, then you have just agreed with me--and rejected the conclusions of "Bernstein and Schmitt (1998)."
Re boldface: Not at all. While I admittedly haven't read "Bernstein and Schmitt (1998)", I would wager that the increments they are advocating are primarilary to preserve the buying power of the minimum wage and to offset devaluation caused by inflation. This devaluation requires that the wage hike be keyed to current buying power rather than some nice arbitrary amount like 5 cents.
It's hard to argue with some liberals that produce "studies" written by liberal "pr
Produce a study written by conservatives. Liberals don't have a monopoly on PR
In the spirit of bipartainship check out the following link paying particular attention to the last paragraph. The article presents a very balanced view of this whole issue (pro and con) and at the very least proves that the effect of raising of the minimum wage is not nearly so cut and dried as you have been arguing.
"Minimum wage article"
Thanks for a most enjoyable argument:)
Increases in the mininum wage WILL increase unemployment.
Show me the numbers.
Your arguments are basically just logical constructs and as any scientist could tell you, very frequently hard data contradicts what was assumed to be logical.
In support of my logical construct, check out this snippet:
Will the proposed increase cause job losses among low-wage workers?
Opponents of minimum wage increases frequently argue that the policy is misguided, since it prices low-wage workers out of the labor market, forcing employers to lay them off after the increase takes effect. This claim has been carefully studied by labor economists interested in testing the actual impact of increases in the minimum wage among low-wage workers. This research, summarized in Bernstein and Schmitt (1998), has generally found the job-loss effect to be either small or nonexistent. The estimates from this literature unequivocally show that the benefits of minimum wage increases to low-wage workers and their families far outweigh the costs.
The most recent increase in the minimum wage -- the $0.90 increase phased in over the 1996-97 period -- is a case in point. The study noted above examined the short-term effects of the increase and found that the policy had its intended effect: it raised the wages of low-wage workers from low-income families without leading to job losses.
The source page for above snippet can be found at
http://www.epinet.org/Issuebriefs/Ib130b.html